Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.

2013-09-02 Thread Lee Mushel
Interesting thread.   I suspect that the topic is simpler than people might 
want it to be.   When I started to use the Flex3000 with a rather heavily 
used SB200 some three years ago I wondered about the possibility of mixing 
tube and solid-state voltages and was told to not worry about it.   But 
being a conservative person I bought a Sunlight isolation relay box (no 
longer available), never adjusted anything and have never had any problems. 
But then I've long felt that people tend to be overly cautious which can 
lead to wanting to be taken care of.


73

Lee  K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: Jim Barber audio...@q.com

Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.



50ms is probably around the minimum for an SB-200.

It all depends on the relay(s). In the case of the SB-200 it's an old 
open-frame type, very slow. Amps advertised for QSK use often have 
vacuum relays, which can switch many times faster.


If you're running SSB, keep in mind that hotswitching the antenna contacts 
is the major issue, but not the only one. Some amp designs (not the 
SB-200) have a separate relay for the tube bias, which is often buffered 
with a simple R/C network. The point is that you shouldn't put drive on 
the tube(s) before the operating bias has had time to switch from cut-off 
to operate. In the case of the SB-220 for example, the cutoff bias is set 
to a unnecessarily high voltage as a matter of convenience, which makes 
the situation worse.


My .02,

Jim N7CXI


On 9/1/2013 8:22 PM, Steve Sterling wrote:
Steven-- I was kinda waiting to see what others thought, but haven't seen 
any response in 24+ hours.


I have mine set at 50ms.  That's a pretty reasonable time for power and 
antenna relays to pull in and get seated.


I originally started at 100ms, but the delay was noticable-- not long, 
but you could kinda tell it was there. I can't tell 50ms at all, except a 
little on CW. I start getting faults in my amp with less than 20-25ms of 
transmit delay on 80 and 40 meters.  20 meters I could set it at 0ms and 
it never faults. Go figure.


Steve WA7DUH

On 8/31/2013 7:52 AM, Steven Hess wrote:
I've got a SB 200 with a interface for proper keying from a modern rig 
to

the relay installed.
What should I set the TXOut delay for to make sure the relays are 
properly

closed before I pass RF to the amplifier? I've got it set for 7 In the
General Options tab of PowerSDR right now.

Steven




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Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.

2013-09-02 Thread Steven Hess
I've been running 5 ms and seemed to have no problems there but am cautious
which is the reason for my inquiry.
I have a Harbach Electronics Soft-Key installed in the SB 200 and also am
using a AmpKeyer in line as it provides a standby mode and I was gifted it.
I have noted the 50 ms and am trying that as it seems like an idea that
will be gentler on the 572b tubes.


On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Lee Mushel herbe...@centurytel.net wrote:

 Interesting thread.   I suspect that the topic is simpler than people
 might want it to be.   When I started to use the Flex3000 with a rather
 heavily used SB200 some three years ago I wondered about the possibility of
 mixing tube and solid-state voltages and was told to not worry about it.
   But being a conservative person I bought a Sunlight isolation relay box
 (no longer available), never adjusted anything and have never had any
 problems. But then I've long felt that people tend to be overly cautious
 which can lead to wanting to be taken care of.

 73

 Lee  K9WRU
 - Original Message - From: Jim Barber audio...@q.com
 Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
 Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 10:14 PM
 Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.


  50ms is probably around the minimum for an SB-200.

 It all depends on the relay(s). In the case of the SB-200 it's an old
 open-frame type, very slow. Amps advertised for QSK use often have vacuum
 relays, which can switch many times faster.

 If you're running SSB, keep in mind that hotswitching the antenna
 contacts is the major issue, but not the only one. Some amp designs (not
 the SB-200) have a separate relay for the tube bias, which is often
 buffered with a simple R/C network. The point is that you shouldn't put
 drive on the tube(s) before the operating bias has had time to switch from
 cut-off to operate. In the case of the SB-220 for example, the cutoff bias
 is set to a unnecessarily high voltage as a matter of convenience, which
 makes the situation worse.

 My .02,

 Jim N7CXI


 On 9/1/2013 8:22 PM, Steve Sterling wrote:

 Steven-- I was kinda waiting to see what others thought, but haven't
 seen any response in 24+ hours.

 I have mine set at 50ms.  That's a pretty reasonable time for power and
 antenna relays to pull in and get seated.

 I originally started at 100ms, but the delay was noticable-- not long,
 but you could kinda tell it was there. I can't tell 50ms at all, except a
 little on CW. I start getting faults in my amp with less than 20-25ms of
 transmit delay on 80 and 40 meters.  20 meters I could set it at 0ms and it
 never faults. Go figure.

 Steve WA7DUH

 On 8/31/2013 7:52 AM, Steven Hess wrote:

 I've got a SB 200 with a interface for proper keying from a modern rig
 to
 the relay installed.
 What should I set the TXOut delay for to make sure the relays are
 properly
 closed before I pass RF to the amplifier? I've got it set for 7 In the
 General Options tab of PowerSDR right now.

 Steven



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Apply appropriate technology. Use what works without prejudice.
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Known as FlameBait and The Sock Puppet of Doom.
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Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.

2013-09-02 Thread Jim Barber
If you don't care about arcing the relay contacts or generating a burst 
of nasty, broad signal  when you key up,

then of course you'd be right.

If your transceiver could handle the switch voltage/current/inductive 
spike of the amplifier relay key line,
you'd be right again. In your case, though, since the SB-200 uses a 120V 
relay coil, I somehow doubt the F3K's
switching transistor would tolerate that for long without the isolation 
box. Perhaps someone from Flex knows the actual spec.


Not sure how overly cautious applies here?

73,
Jim N7CXI

On 9/2/2013 7:01 AM, Lee Mushel wrote:
Interesting thread.   I suspect that the topic is simpler than people 
might want it to be.   When I started to use the Flex3000 with a 
rather heavily used SB200 some three years ago I wondered about the 
possibility of mixing tube and solid-state voltages and was told to 
not worry about it.   But being a conservative person I bought a 
Sunlight isolation relay box (no longer available), never adjusted 
anything and have never had any problems. But then I've long felt that 
people tend to be overly cautious which can lead to wanting to be 
taken care of.


73

Lee  K9WRU
- Original Message - From: Jim Barber audio...@q.com
Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.



50ms is probably around the minimum for an SB-200.

It all depends on the relay(s). In the case of the SB-200 it's an old 
open-frame type, very slow. Amps advertised for QSK use often have 
vacuum relays, which can switch many times faster.


If you're running SSB, keep in mind that hotswitching the antenna 
contacts is the major issue, but not the only one. Some amp designs 
(not the SB-200) have a separate relay for the tube bias, which is 
often buffered with a simple R/C network. The point is that you 
shouldn't put drive on the tube(s) before the operating bias has had 
time to switch from cut-off to operate. In the case of the SB-220 for 
example, the cutoff bias is set to a unnecessarily high voltage as a 
matter of convenience, which makes the situation worse.


My .02,

Jim N7CXI


On 9/1/2013 8:22 PM, Steve Sterling wrote:
Steven-- I was kinda waiting to see what others thought, but haven't 
seen any response in 24+ hours.


I have mine set at 50ms.  That's a pretty reasonable time for power 
and antenna relays to pull in and get seated.


I originally started at 100ms, but the delay was noticable-- not 
long, but you could kinda tell it was there. I can't tell 50ms at 
all, except a little on CW. I start getting faults in my amp with 
less than 20-25ms of transmit delay on 80 and 40 meters.  20 meters 
I could set it at 0ms and it never faults. Go figure.


Steve WA7DUH

On 8/31/2013 7:52 AM, Steven Hess wrote:
I've got a SB 200 with a interface for proper keying from a modern 
rig to

the relay installed.
What should I set the TXOut delay for to make sure the relays are 
properly

closed before I pass RF to the amplifier? I've got it set for 7 In the
General Options tab of PowerSDR right now.

Steven




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Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.

2013-09-02 Thread Jordan Arndt
Page 9 of the Flex5k manual discusses the keying line limitations and shows 
an intermediate ckt to be used called the Protective PTT circuit between 
TX1-3 and Amplifier.  The relay you use external to the Flex should 
handle whatever voltage/current parameters are required by your rig. If you 
have a -125Vdc line to be keyed, use a relay with contacts rated for that 
voltage or better. A 30-50ms delay should be fine...


73...Jordan VE6ZT

- Original Message - 
From: Jim Barber audio...@q.com

Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.


If you don't care about arcing the relay contacts or generating a burst of 
nasty, broad signal  when you key up,

then of course you'd be right.

If your transceiver could handle the switch voltage/current/inductive 
spike of the amplifier relay key line,
you'd be right again. In your case, though, since the SB-200 uses a 120V 
relay coil, I somehow doubt the F3K's
switching transistor would tolerate that for long without the isolation 
box. Perhaps someone from Flex knows the actual spec.


Not sure how overly cautious applies here?

73,
Jim N7CXI

On 9/2/2013 7:01 AM, Lee Mushel wrote:
Interesting thread.   I suspect that the topic is simpler than people 
might want it to be.   When I started to use the Flex3000 with a rather 
heavily used SB200 some three years ago I wondered about the possibility 
of mixing tube and solid-state voltages and was told to not worry about 
it.   But being a conservative person I bought a Sunlight isolation 
relay box (no longer available), never adjusted anything and have never 
had any problems. But then I've long felt that people tend to be overly 
cautious which can lead to wanting to be taken care of.


73

Lee  K9WRU
- Original Message - From: Jim Barber audio...@q.com
Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.



50ms is probably around the minimum for an SB-200.

It all depends on the relay(s). In the case of the SB-200 it's an old 
open-frame type, very slow. Amps advertised for QSK use often have 
vacuum relays, which can switch many times faster.


If you're running SSB, keep in mind that hotswitching the antenna 
contacts is the major issue, but not the only one. Some amp designs (not 
the SB-200) have a separate relay for the tube bias, which is often 
buffered with a simple R/C network. The point is that you shouldn't put 
drive on the tube(s) before the operating bias has had time to switch 
from cut-off to operate. In the case of the SB-220 for example, the 
cutoff bias is set to a unnecessarily high voltage as a matter of 
convenience, which makes the situation worse.


My .02,

Jim N7CXI


On 9/1/2013 8:22 PM, Steve Sterling wrote:
Steven-- I was kinda waiting to see what others thought, but haven't 
seen any response in 24+ hours.


I have mine set at 50ms.  That's a pretty reasonable time for power and 
antenna relays to pull in and get seated.


I originally started at 100ms, but the delay was noticable-- not long, 
but you could kinda tell it was there. I can't tell 50ms at all, except 
a little on CW. I start getting faults in my amp with less than 20-25ms 
of transmit delay on 80 and 40 meters.  20 meters I could set it at 0ms 
and it never faults. Go figure.


Steve WA7DUH

On 8/31/2013 7:52 AM, Steven Hess wrote:
I've got a SB 200 with a interface for proper keying from a modern rig 
to

the relay installed.
What should I set the TXOut delay for to make sure the relays are 
properly

closed before I pass RF to the amplifier? I've got it set for 7 In the
General Options tab of PowerSDR right now.

Steven




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Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.

2013-09-02 Thread Steven Hess
Seeing as I am using two of these devices in series I am good to go here.

I can understand the relay closure and setting issue. My understanding was
the Grid voltage dropped when keyed? Or am I thinking of something else?

I am trying 50 ms. I am not seeing any real difference in how my rig
responds with the increased setting. I may try an even less aggressive
setting here.


On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 7:52 AM, Jordan Arndt outposte...@shaw.ca wrote:

 Page 9 of the Flex5k manual discusses the keying line limitations and
 shows an intermediate ckt to be used called the Protective PTT circuit
 between TX1-3 and Amplifier.  The relay you use external to the Flex
 should handle whatever voltage/current parameters are required by your rig.
 If you have a -125Vdc line to be keyed, use a relay with contacts rated for
 that voltage or better. A 30-50ms delay should be fine...

 73...Jordan VE6ZT

 - Original Message - From: Jim Barber audio...@q.com
 Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
 Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 8:18 AM
 Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.


  If you don't care about arcing the relay contacts or generating a burst
 of nasty, broad signal  when you key up,
 then of course you'd be right.

 If your transceiver could handle the switch voltage/current/inductive
 spike of the amplifier relay key line,
 you'd be right again. In your case, though, since the SB-200 uses a 120V
 relay coil, I somehow doubt the F3K's
 switching transistor would tolerate that for long without the isolation
 box. Perhaps someone from Flex knows the actual spec.

 Not sure how overly cautious applies here?

 73,
 Jim N7CXI

 On 9/2/2013 7:01 AM, Lee Mushel wrote:

 Interesting thread.   I suspect that the topic is simpler than people
 might want it to be.   When I started to use the Flex3000 with a rather
 heavily used SB200 some three years ago I wondered about the possibility of
 mixing tube and solid-state voltages and was told to not worry about it.
   But being a conservative person I bought a Sunlight isolation relay box
 (no longer available), never adjusted anything and have never had any
 problems. But then I've long felt that people tend to be overly cautious
 which can lead to wanting to be taken care of.

 73

 Lee  K9WRU
 - Original Message - From: Jim Barber audio...@q.com
 Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
 Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 10:14 PM
 Subject: Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.


  50ms is probably around the minimum for an SB-200.

 It all depends on the relay(s). In the case of the SB-200 it's an old
 open-frame type, very slow. Amps advertised for QSK use often have vacuum
 relays, which can switch many times faster.

 If you're running SSB, keep in mind that hotswitching the antenna
 contacts is the major issue, but not the only one. Some amp designs (not
 the SB-200) have a separate relay for the tube bias, which is often
 buffered with a simple R/C network. The point is that you shouldn't put
 drive on the tube(s) before the operating bias has had time to switch from
 cut-off to operate. In the case of the SB-220 for example, the cutoff bias
 is set to a unnecessarily high voltage as a matter of convenience, which
 makes the situation worse.

 My .02,

 Jim N7CXI


 On 9/1/2013 8:22 PM, Steve Sterling wrote:

 Steven-- I was kinda waiting to see what others thought, but haven't
 seen any response in 24+ hours.

 I have mine set at 50ms.  That's a pretty reasonable time for power
 and antenna relays to pull in and get seated.

 I originally started at 100ms, but the delay was noticable-- not long,
 but you could kinda tell it was there. I can't tell 50ms at all, except a
 little on CW. I start getting faults in my amp with less than 20-25ms of
 transmit delay on 80 and 40 meters.  20 meters I could set it at 0ms and 
 it
 never faults. Go figure.

 Steve WA7DUH

 On 8/31/2013 7:52 AM, Steven Hess wrote:

 I've got a SB 200 with a interface for proper keying from a modern
 rig to
 the relay installed.
 What should I set the TXOut delay for to make sure the relays are
 properly
 closed before I pass RF to the amplifier? I've got it set for 7 In the
 General Options tab of PowerSDR right now.

 Steven



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Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.

2013-09-02 Thread manualman
I've been using my Flex 5000 with a SB-200 and installed Harbach soft-key
for several years. Whatever is the default keying delay setting is what
I've been using and neither rig has coughed up any hair balls over the
past 5 years.

Pete, wa2cwa
http://www.manualman.com
 
On Mon, 2 Sep 2013 06:10:25 -0700 Steven Hess flameb...@gmail.com
writes:
 I've been running 5 ms and seemed to have no problems there but am 
 cautious
 which is the reason for my inquiry.
 I have a Harbach Electronics Soft-Key installed in the SB 200 and 
 also am
 using a AmpKeyer in line as it provides a standby mode and I was 
 gifted it.
 I have noted the 50 ms and am trying that as it seems like an idea 
 that
 will be gentler on the 572b tubes.
 
 
 On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Lee Mushel herbe...@centurytel.net 
 wrote:
 
  Interesting thread.   I suspect that the topic is simpler than 
 people
  might want it to be.   When I started to use the Flex3000 with a 
 rather
  heavily used SB200 some three years ago I wondered about the 
 possibility of
  mixing tube and solid-state voltages and was told to not worry 
 about it.
But being a conservative person I bought a Sunlight isolation 
 relay box
  (no longer available), never adjusted anything and have never had 
 any
  problems. But then I've long felt that people tend to be overly 
 cautious
  which can lead to wanting to be taken care of.
 
  73
 
  Lee  K9WRU


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Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.

2013-09-01 Thread Steve Sterling
Steven-- I was kinda waiting to see what others thought, but haven't 
seen any response in 24+ hours.


I have mine set at 50ms.  That's a pretty reasonable time for power and 
antenna relays to pull in and get seated.


I originally started at 100ms, but the delay was noticable-- not long, 
but you could kinda tell it was there. I can't tell 50ms at all, except 
a little on CW. I start getting faults in my amp with less than 20-25ms 
of transmit delay on 80 and 40 meters.  20 meters I could set it at 0ms 
and it never faults. Go figure.


Steve WA7DUH

On 8/31/2013 7:52 AM, Steven Hess wrote:

I've got a SB 200 with a interface for proper keying from a modern rig to
the relay installed.
What should I set the TXOut delay for to make sure the relays are properly
closed before I pass RF to the amplifier? I've got it set for 7  In the
General Options tab of PowerSDR right now.

Steven




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Re: [Flexradio] TXOut Delay.

2013-09-01 Thread Jim Barber

50ms is probably around the minimum for an SB-200.

It all depends on the relay(s). In the case of the SB-200 it's an old 
open-frame type, very slow. Amps advertised for QSK use often have 
vacuum relays, which can switch many times faster.


If you're running SSB, keep in mind that hotswitching the antenna 
contacts is the major issue, but not the only one. Some amp designs (not 
the SB-200) have a separate relay for the tube bias, which is often 
buffered with a simple R/C network. The point is that you shouldn't put 
drive on the tube(s) before the operating bias has had time to switch 
from cut-off to operate. In the case of the SB-220 for example, the 
cutoff bias is set to a unnecessarily high voltage as a matter of 
convenience, which makes the situation worse.


My .02,

Jim N7CXI


On 9/1/2013 8:22 PM, Steve Sterling wrote:
Steven-- I was kinda waiting to see what others thought, but haven't 
seen any response in 24+ hours.


I have mine set at 50ms.  That's a pretty reasonable time for power 
and antenna relays to pull in and get seated.


I originally started at 100ms, but the delay was noticable-- not long, 
but you could kinda tell it was there. I can't tell 50ms at all, 
except a little on CW. I start getting faults in my amp with less than 
20-25ms of transmit delay on 80 and 40 meters.  20 meters I could set 
it at 0ms and it never faults. Go figure.


Steve WA7DUH

On 8/31/2013 7:52 AM, Steven Hess wrote:
I've got a SB 200 with a interface for proper keying from a modern 
rig to

the relay installed.
What should I set the TXOut delay for to make sure the relays are 
properly

closed before I pass RF to the amplifier? I've got it set for 7 In the
General Options tab of PowerSDR right now.

Steven




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