Re: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka
Not trying to defer any sales of the system Brian listed below, if you are looking for a low cost system, consider the Intel ATOM 330. I have one based on the Intel mobo that works great and plan to use it for the setup at the Raleigh Hamfest in April running Vista x64. -Tim -Original Message- From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Brian Lloyd Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 2:28 PM To: FlexRadio List Subject: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka Some of you may have noticed my recent frustration with Windows. Well, there is a reason. As a result of a home-automation project by a now- defunct company I have a number of new, very small systems that I thought would be ideal to use as a dedicated computer system to run the flex 5000a. (They were intended to be media players handling streaming audio and video.) I really like the package and wanted to make one work for myself so I can recover some space in the shack and to simplify wiring. Now that I (finally!) have the system working reliably I have switched over to using it full time. I have tested it with both receivers working and fldigi running. I have also tested at up to 192K sampling rate. The machine is busy (90% CPU with both receivers, 192KHz sampling, and fldigi running) but it runs just fine. I normally run with 96KHz sampling and the update rate on the panadaptor seems to be full-speed. I have three more of these systems. I was planning to sell them on eBay but I got the idea that they might prove useful to people here who want a very small system dedicated to run their F5Ka, and have it all ready set up with all the necessary software loaded and tested. Just plug it in, turn it on, and you are ready to go. I have the following installed and working on mine: Windows XP Home, SP3 Flex driver v3.2.0.1556 PowerSDR v1.16.1 com0com VAC DDutil HRD fldigi If you want one, I will configure it similarly and make sure it works properly on my radio before sending it. The hardware itself is an Aopen MP945-VDR with the following: Intel Celeron 1.46GHz socket-M processor 1GB SO DIMM DDR533 RAM DVD-R drive a couple of different disk drive sizes ranging from 20GB-60GB 1x 400Mbps 6-pin Firewire (built-in) 4x USB 2.0 5.1 audio out with optical S-PDIF gigabit ethernet DVI video interface (needs an adaptor for VGA) This system is about the same size as a Mac Mini. Here is more information in the system: (http://usa.aopen.com/search_prod.aspx?modl=MP945-VDR ) The system runs off of 19VDC (AC power adaptor included). I think these machines are worth about $400 configured the way they are. If you think you might be interested, drop me a note directly. -- 73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka
On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 11:44 AM, Tim Ellison wrote: > Not trying to defer any sales of the system Brian listed below, if you are > looking for a low cost system, consider the Intel ATOM 330. I have one > based on the Intel mobo that works great and plan to use it for the setup at > the Raleigh Hamfest in April running Vista x64. No worries, Tim. I am going to stick with my little system for now. The Intel Atom boards only have VGA for video output and it never looks as good driving an LCD display. And if no one here wants my extra systems I will still sell them on eBay and not need to go to the effort of setting them up for the Flex5000 and making sure they are working that way. 73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka
A week or so ago I offered several small, pre-configured systems that would be plug-n-play for a Flex 5000 A. These would be ready-to-go with the Flex driver, PowerSDR, supporting software (VAC/com0com/ddutil) and popular ham radio software (HRD/DM780/fldigi) installed and pre-configured so that all you need to do is to plug in the F5K, turn everything on, and get on the air. I got the idea from working with another ham here who was having trouble getting everything to work together. But the silence has been deafening. Other than Tim's one response talking about using an Atom 330 board (I considered that but it only has VGA output and I use DVI or HDMI for flat panel displays) there hasn't been a peep. Since getting all the pieces to play together nicely has proven to be much more of a challenge than I expected, I thought there might be more interest. Understand, I am not looking to turn a profit on this. It was more of an experiment than anything else and it looked like a way to make the F5K (or F3K) much easier to get on-the-air. I have learned a LOT about Microsoft Windows in the process and this seemed a really good way to share it. So, just wondering what people are thinking. 73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka
Brian, I will take a stab at it. Many hams have a 'spare' PC either not in use or available for re-purposing. In the finest tradition of ham radio the PC not in use is in the 'junk box'. Buyers of the Flex radio assume they will pull their junk box PC out of storage and hook it up to the radio. There is nothing wrong with this assumption except they need to; 1. look at the junk box PC to determine if it will fill the requirements posted on the FlexRadio website. 2. gain some experience with setting up that PC for the SDR computer function. 3. gain some experience setting up the software so that the auxiliary programs, VAC/com0com/ddutil/HDR/DM780/fldigi/CWskimmer will work. The Flex company and the dedicated support people have brought many of us up to speed. They are fantastic! None the less, we are talking about many hours of trial and error experimentation. Going into the effort seems simple, but as we all know :-) there is more to it than first appears. So, your efforts of solving ALL of those myriad of problems and details is not easily seen or appreciated by a new Flexer. The more experienced Flexers have been through through the process of learning and defining all of the details for their own shacks use. The newer Flexers have yet to learn the true value of what you are offering. Anyway, I am admiring your offer but I have this PC in my junk box... Ted, NX6C From: Brian Lloyd To: FlexRadio List Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2009 10:52:43 AM Subject: Re: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka A week or so ago I offered several small, pre-configured systems that would be plug-n-play for a Flex 5000 A. These would be ready-to-go with the Flex driver, PowerSDR, supporting software (VAC/com0com/ddutil) and popular ham radio software (HRD/DM780/fldigi) installed and pre-configured so that all you need to do is to plug in the F5K, turn everything on, and get on the air. I got the idea from working with another ham here who was having trouble getting everything to work together. But the silence has been deafening. Other than Tim's one response talking about using an Atom 330 board (I considered that but it only has VGA output and I use DVI or HDMI for flat panel displays) there hasn't been a peep. Since getting all the pieces to play together nicely has proven to be much more of a challenge than I expected, I thought there might be more interest. Understand, I am not looking to turn a profit on this. It was more of an experiment than anything else and it looked like a way to make the F5K (or F3K) much easier to get on-the-air. I have learned a LOT about Microsoft Windows in the process and this seemed a really good way to share it. So, just wondering what people are thinking. 73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka
Your offer was intriguing and a very reasonable price; however, there are other thoughts that one might consider. When I configured my computer to run my F5K, I wanted a lot of extra power for the future and also wanted a computer that I could install other applications on...to run other things beside the F5K. Consequently when I looked for a small dedicated computer, I could not find an off-the-shelf one that had additional extra power for the future that would meet my needs. I suspect that many people looking for a system to power the F5K have a similar feeling that they need a lot of extra power for possible future expansion. The system that you proposed will run the F5K; but, may not have the power for future expansion and enhancements... I suspect that a ham who buys an F5K is probably computer savvy and would think nothing of configuring and building his own system. In my case, I bought a "Shuttle" and put a Quad Core processor in it. It pretty well loafs along when it runs the F5K; but, also handles some other applications at the same time. I had no problem making the F5K or the computer work! I installed the software on the Shuttle, followed the F5K instructions, and it all worked. George K2CM -Original Message- From: Brian Lloyd [mailto:brian-wb6...@lloyd.com] Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 1:53 PM To: FlexRadio List Subject: Re: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka A week or so ago I offered several small, pre-configured systems that would be plug-n-play for a Flex 5000 A. These would be ready-to-go with the Flex driver, PowerSDR, supporting software (VAC/com0com/ddutil) and popular ham radio software (HRD/DM780/fldigi) installed and pre-configured so that all you need to do is to plug in the F5K, turn everything on, and get on the air. I got the idea from working with another ham here who was having trouble getting everything to work together. But the silence has been deafening. Other than Tim's one response talking about using an Atom 330 board (I considered that but it only has VGA output and I use DVI or HDMI for flat panel displays) there hasn't been a peep. Since getting all the pieces to play together nicely has proven to be much more of a challenge than I expected, I thought there might be more interest. Understand, I am not looking to turn a profit on this. It was more of an experiment than anything else and it looked like a way to make the F5K (or F3K) much easier to get on-the-air. I have learned a LOT about Microsoft Windows in the process and this seemed a really good way to share it. So, just wondering what people are thinking. 73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3914 (20090306) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3914 (20090306) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka
On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 10:52 AM, George Allen wrote: Your offer was intriguing and a very reasonable price; however, there are other thoughts that one might consider. Yes, I had considered those things. I agree -- the machine has to be able to run PowerSDR with two receivers sampling at 192KHz, VAC, com0com, ddutil, HRD, DM780, fldigi ... at least. Anything less is not enough. What I was proposing is not really for the computer-savvy. I agree with you that people like you and me will want to build their own machine anyway. OTOH, it might be for the person who is computer savvy and plans to build a dedicated machine but wants to be sure that he/ she gets hardware that is known to work without any problems. Having all the base software pre-configured and tested is just icing on the cake. (BTW, I consider VAC, com0com, and a digital mode program; e.g. DM780, fldigi, MixW, etc.; to be part of the base software needed to run a Flex radio. I cannot imagine anyone running an FxK without them.) So what I am proposing is primarily for the person who isn't really interested in tinkering with the computer. This person wants to get on the air and have the radio system be 100% reliable. Perhaps their thing is contesting. I would expect that this would be the ham who would otherwise purchase a Yaecomwood, plug it in, turn it on, and start calling CQ. Having a prepackaged computer with software installed and configured turns a Flex radio into a turn-key system. Certainly someone could purchase an F5Kc but that doesn't help for the person who wants an F5Ka or F3K. When I configured my computer to run my F5K, I wanted a lot of extra power for the future and also wanted a computer that I could install other applications on...to run other things beside the F5K. I am guessing that you mean other programs that run in conjunction with PowerSDR to make a complete radio. I hope you are not implying that one should use one's general-purpose home machine with the radio. The radio really needs its own dedicated processing engine. And as for future power, remember, cost is going to come down for more processing power in the future so perhaps it is worth considering right-sizing the system as opposed to over-sizing the system. Another thing to consider is how the systems will work in the future. I think you will find that, instead of having one really big/fast processing engine, you will have multiple smaller engines each performing a different function. I can certainly see the radio controlling engine multicasting the IF to several different machines, each performing a different function. Consequently when I looked for a small dedicated computer, I could not find an off-the-shelf one that had additional extra power for the future that would meet my needs. I understand that. One needs to build up a system. OTOH, the little AOpen machines are compact and I have now figured out how to configure them to reliably run the Flex radio(s). The only real question is which processor to put in. I suspect that many people looking for a system to power the F5K have a similar feeling that they need a lot of extra power for possible future expansion. The system that you proposed will run the F5K; but, may not have the power for future expansion and enhancements... I suspect that a ham who buys an F5K is probably computer savvy and would think nothing of configuring and building his own system. In my case, I bought a "Shuttle" and put a Quad Core processor in it. It pretty well loafs along when it runs the F5K; but, also handles some other applications at the same time. I had no problem making the F5K or the computer work! I installed the software on the Shuttle, followed the F5K instructions, and it all worked. That is great! You hit the jackpot on the first try! OTOH, that has not been my experience with any of the three machines on which I have run PowerSDR. I have had to fiddle with them until they worked. But I have ultimately been successful. Still, I have a fair bit of background making systems work and doing so wasn't necessarily obvious. There is a lot that is going on in Windows that isn't obvious, and the quality of drivers is *not* consistent, which greatly influences the reliability of the final system. 73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka
I completely agree with {and I added my comments and I underlined key important
concepts}:
1. The machine has to be able to run PowerSDR with two receivers sampling at
192KHz, VAC, com0com, ddutil, HRD, DM780, fldigi ... at least. Anything less is
not enough. BTW, I consider VAC, com0com, and a digital mode program; e.g.
DM780, fldigi, MixW, etc.; to be part of the base software needed to run a Flex
radio. I cannot imagine anyone running an FxK without them.
2. So what I am proposing is primarily for the person who isn't really
interested in tinkering with the computer.
3. {for this application} The radio really needs its own dedicated processing
engine.
4. Certainly someone could purchase an F5Kc but that doesn't help for the
person who wants an F5Ka or F3K. { Also, the F5Kc computer is for the Flex,
the third party software is not installed as a part of the purchased package.}
5. Having a prepackaged computer with software installed and configured turns
a Flex radio into a turn-key system.
6. There is a lot that is going on in Windows that isn't obvious, and the
quality of drivers is *not* consistent, which greatly influences the
reliability of the final system.
Great topic!
Ted
NX6C
From: Brian Lloyd
To: George Allen
Cc: FlexRadio List
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2009 9:42:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka
On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 10:52 AM, George Allen wrote:
> Your offer was intriguing and a very reasonable price; however, there
> are other thoughts that one might consider.
Yes, I had considered those things. I agree -- the machine has to be able to
run PowerSDR with two receivers sampling at 192KHz, VAC, com0com, ddutil, HRD,
DM780, fldigi ... at least. Anything less is not enough.
What I was proposing is not really for the computer-savvy. I agree with you
that people like you and me will want to build their own machine anyway. OTOH,
it might be for the person who is computer savvy and plans to build a dedicated
machine but wants to be sure that he/she gets hardware that is known to work
without any problems. Having all the base software pre-configured and tested is
just icing on the cake.
(BTW, I consider VAC, com0com, and a digital mode program; e.g. DM780, fldigi,
MixW, etc.; to be part of the base software needed to run a Flex radio. I
cannot imagine anyone running an FxK without them.)
So what I am proposing is primarily for the person who isn't really interested
in tinkering with the computer. This person wants to get on the air and have
the radio system be 100% reliable. Perhaps their thing is contesting. I would
expect that this would be the ham who would otherwise purchase a Yaecomwood,
plug it in, turn it on, and start calling CQ. Having a prepackaged computer
with software installed and configured turns a Flex radio into a turn-key
system. Certainly someone could purchase an F5Kc but that doesn't help for the
person who wants an F5Ka or F3K.
> When I configured my computer to run my F5K, I wanted a lot of extra
> power for the future and also wanted a computer that I could install
> other applications on...to run other things beside the F5K.
I am guessing that you mean other programs that run in conjunction with
PowerSDR to make a complete radio. I hope you are not implying that one should
use one's general-purpose home machine with the radio. The radio really needs
its own dedicated processing engine.
And as for future power, remember, cost is going to come down for more
processing power in the future so perhaps it is worth considering right-sizing
the system as opposed to over-sizing the system.
Another thing to consider is how the systems will work in the future. I think
you will find that, instead of having one really big/fast processing engine,
you will have multiple smaller engines each performing a different function. I
can certainly see the radio controlling engine multicasting the IF to several
different machines, each performing a different function.
> Consequently when I looked for a small dedicated computer, I could not
> find an off-the-shelf one that had additional extra power for the future
> that would meet my needs.
I understand that. One needs to build up a system. OTOH, the little AOpen
machines are compact and I have now figured out how to configure them to
reliably run the Flex radio(s). The only real question is which processor to
put in.
> I suspect that many people looking for a system to power the F5K have a
> similar feeling that they need a lot of extra power for possible future
> expansion. The system that you proposed will run the F5K; but, may not
> have the power for future expansion and enhancements...
>
> I suspect that a ham who buys an F5K is probably computer savvy and
> would think nothing of configuring and building his own system.
>
Re: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka
I completely agree with {and I added my comments} and I double braced {{key
concepts}}:
1. The machine has to be able to run PowerSDR with two receivers sampling at
192KHz, VAC, com0com, ddutil, HRD, DM780, fldigi ... at least. Anything less is
not enough. BTW, {{I consider VAC, com0com, and a digital mode program; e.g.
DM780, fldigi, MixW, etc.; to be part of the base software needed to run a Flex
radio}}. I cannot imagine anyone running an FxK without them.
2. So what I am proposing is {{primarily for the person who isn't really
interested in tinkering with the computer}}.
3. {for this application} The radio really needs its own dedicated processing
engine.
4. Certainly someone could purchase an F5Kc but that doesn't help for the
person who wants an F5Ka or F3K. { Also, the F5Kc computer is for the Flex,
the third party software is not installed as a part of the purchased package.}
5. {{ Having a prepackaged computer with software installed and configured
turns a Flex radio into a turn-key system.}}
6. There is a lot that is going on in Windows that isn't obvious, and the
quality of drivers is *not* consistent, which greatly influences the
reliability of the final system.
Great topic!
Ted
NX6C
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Re: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka (How about XPe?)
Anyone try running PowerSDR (and friends) on a system running XP-Embedded? XPe can be tailored-down to a VERY slim image (useful systems with 256MB of memory and 256MB of disk are common), is typically run without a paging file, and can be easily configured to save no changes made to disk (so risk of virus infection is zero). Yet, you can still install and remove application software as required. It strikes me that XPe would really be the best sort of platform for this type of application. Was there a conscious decision for the 5K-C to use the full-blown XP install, instead of XPe? I'm not sure why this didn't occur to me before... If no one has tried it, I'll try to get the time to give it a shot in the next week or so, Peter K1PGV ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] small, dedicated computer for F5Ka (How about XPe?)
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 6:21 AM, Peter G. Viscarola wrote: > Anyone try running PowerSDR (and friends) on a system running > XP-Embedded? XPe can be tailored-down to a VERY slim image (useful > systems with 256MB of memory and 256MB of disk are common), is typically > run without a paging file, and can be easily configured to save no > changes made to disk (so risk of virus infection is zero). Yet, you can > still install and remove application software as required. > > It strikes me that XPe would really be the best sort of platform for > this type of application. Was there a conscious decision for the 5K-C > to use the full-blown XP install, instead of XPe? > > I'm not sure why this didn't occur to me before... If no one has tried > it, I'll try to get the time to give it a shot in the next week or so, This would probably be a good experiment. I was thinking of throwing together a system using flash for mass storage instead of rotating media that would support PowerSDR and the necessary support programs, e.g. Flex 5K driver, VAC, com0com, ddutil, fldigi, etc. My little Aopen boxes are a first step toward this. If there was interest I would have continued to build dedicated systems to support the F5K for people who wanted them. (The idea came from helping a ham who was just having too much trouble getting his F5K to do what he wanted it to do using all the various external devices he had.) Interestingly enough, working with the F5K has turned into a classical systems-integration problem, i.e. how to get all the various pieces to play together reliably and then package it up so that it is reliable, repeatable, and supportable. Now here is the fly-in-the-ointment. Flex is coming out with the next-generation code Real Soon Now. We don't know what that is going to be and there are hopes that it will run on an OS other than Windows. If so, spending a lot of time tuning Windows and PowerSDR 1.x is going to be a short-lived effort. One will have to start all over again if the thrust is to switch to Linux. Likewise if the thrust is to switch from XP to Vista. In both case you get to start over again in tuning and packaging to get an install procedure that produces something that is reliable, repeatable, and supportable. But given just how tightly PowerSDR is bound to Windows now, I can't see them just abandoning the Windows platform. So coming up with a really good embedded XP platform makes a lot of sense. I would be happy to work with you on this. Make no bones about it, I *really* dislike Windows. But I like the Flex5000 a lot more than I dislike Windows. So the goal would be to come up with a package that will let me build a dedicated system just to run the F5K reliably. I am satisfied that I have finally reached that point with my little Aopen DP945-DVR machine but the problem I had with DPC latency spikes due to the disk spinning down (and Microsoft turning disk power save back on after I turned it off) leads me to think that switching to non-rotating media (flash) for program storage would be a big win. That also implies XPe. So, yeah, I would like to try that and contribute. I don't have a copy of XPe and not sure where to get one. Tell me where and I will try it out. > Peter > K1PGV 73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
