Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-16 Thread Martin Spott
David Luff wrote:

 http://mail.flightgear.org/pipermail/flightgear-devel/2002-December/014095.html
 
 It requires openGL-1.2 for the patch to take effect, which I don't have on
 Cygwin.  If your SGI is openGL-1.2 capable, then perhaps you could see if
 it makes any difference on your system?

I'll have a look tonight,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-16 Thread David Luff


On 12/16/04 at 12:16 PM Curtis L. Olson wrote:

David Luff wrote:

I've commited a work-around to the base that wraps all the symetrical
runway panels in the v direction (everything except the threshold panel
has
identical upper and lower borders, and so can safetly be wrapped in v
given
that we're only wrapping a handfull of pixels).  This removes the vast
majority of the lines (all except at the threshold, and the longitudional
line where rwy numbers are made of 2 digits).  You can still test Andy's
plib patch by using the 2D c172 (--aircraft=c172p-2dpanel) which will
almost certainly exhibit panel jointing problems if you've been seeing
runway lines.
  


Dave,

Based on all my knowledge of OpenGL, this is the wrong thing to do and 
will introduce additional (although possibly less visible) artifacts at 
the edges.  The visual results should be examined *very* carefully.  I 
don't think this is what we want to do.


Hi Curt,

I had a feeling I'd cop some flak for this ;-)  I'm quite prepared to be
proved wrong and to revert it if need be.  Lets look at the benefits first
though and give it a couple of days to see if there really are some
downsides.

Here's some screenshots to look at - 2 before the change, and 2 after.
KDPA screenshots from my Cygwin build, KSFO from the official binary, both
with an ATI Radeon 7200 32Meg card.

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~eazdluf/KSFO-default.jpg
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~eazdluf/KSFO-new.jpg
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~eazdluf/KDPA-default.jpg
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~eazdluf/KDPA-new.jpg

Without any change thousand of users who download the official binary and
use (an unknown but significant subset of) non-NVidia cards are going to be
seeing those lines in the runway.  They don't look good :-(

Explanation of the ATI vs. NVidia differences is given by Andy Ross, a full
two years ago:

http://mail.flightgear.org/pipermail/flightgear-devel/2002-December/014095.h
tml

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=4479max_rows=25style
=nestedviewmonth=200212

His patch never got included in Plib though (looking at the current
source), and even if it did I don't have the knowhow to get OpenGL-1.2
stuff working under Windows.  I can think of 3 possible avenues for fixing
this:

1 - Look at the airport generator.  Perhaps we've got tiny over or
underruns on the tex co-ords.  Maybe lining them up perfectly or even with
slight overlap would fix it.  Disadvantage - need to regenerate scenery to
see benefits - not practical for this release.

2 - Fred compiles Plib with Andy's patch and gets the official binary to
use GL_CLAMP_TO_EDGE if available.  Apparently most modern cards should
handle this.  Disadvantage - AFAICT using 1.2 extensions on Windows is
possibly somewhat non-trivial - win32api supplies openGL 1.1 by default if
I'm not mistaken.

3 - My, erm, hack.  I can't theoretically see where it's going to cause
artifacts.  AFAICT, I'm just wrapping in one direction where the bottom and
top pixels of the texture are practically the same anyway.  That's why I
can't do the threshold piece.  I'm quite prepared to be proved wrong though
- I thought I'd better do this with enough time before the release to back
it out if need be ;-)  We could almost certainly wrap all the full width
pieces in u and v if it's the 1D wrapping you're concerned about, since the
left and right are identical, as long as we don't overrun the small runway
shoulder.  Can't do the 9r, 7l etc bits in that direction though.

I guess I'd better go and see what it looks like on an NVidea card now...

Cheers - Dave


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-16 Thread David Luff
David Luff writes:

 
 I guess I'd better go and see what it looks like on an NVidea card now...
 

Well, I've had a very good pan round the Chicago scenery in the ufo with both 
the old and new materials.xml on a Linux box with a Geforce3, and I can't find 
a shred of difference in any of the runways, regardless of surface or marking 
type.

Cheers - Dave

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-16 Thread Chris Metzler
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 23:04:30 +
David Luff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Well, I've had a very good pan round the Chicago scenery in the ufo with
 both the old and new materials.xml on a Linux box with a Geforce3, and I
 can't find a shred of difference in any of the runways, regardless of
 surface or marking type.

FWIW, I just did the same with a GF4 Ti4600, checked asphalt and concrete
rwys with both materials.xml's, took snapshots from identical perspectives
so I could compare them directly, and I can't see any differences . . .

-c

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-16 Thread David Luff


On 12/16/04 at 11:43 AM Martin Spott wrote:

David Luff wrote:


http://mail.flightgear.org/pipermail/flightgear-devel/2002-December/014095.
html
 
 It requires openGL-1.2 for the patch to take effect, which I don't have
on
 Cygwin.  If your SGI is openGL-1.2 capable, then perhaps you could see
if
 it makes any difference on your system?

I'll have a look tonight,

I've commited a work-around to the base that wraps all the symetrical
runway panels in the v direction (everything except the threshold panel has
identical upper and lower borders, and so can safetly be wrapped in v given
that we're only wrapping a handfull of pixels).  This removes the vast
majority of the lines (all except at the threshold, and the longitudional
line where rwy numbers are made of 2 digits).  You can still test Andy's
plib patch by using the 2D c172 (--aircraft=c172p-2dpanel) which will
almost certainly exhibit panel jointing problems if you've been seeing
runway lines.

Cheers - Dave


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-16 Thread Curtis L. Olson
David Luff wrote:
On 12/16/04 at 11:43 AM Martin Spott wrote:
 

David Luff wrote:
   

http://mail.flightgear.org/pipermail/flightgear-devel/2002-December/014095.
   

html
 

It requires openGL-1.2 for the patch to take effect, which I don't have
 

on
   

Cygwin.  If your SGI is openGL-1.2 capable, then perhaps you could see
 

if
 

it makes any difference on your system?
 

I'll have a look tonight,
   

I've commited a work-around to the base that wraps all the symetrical
runway panels in the v direction (everything except the threshold panel has
identical upper and lower borders, and so can safetly be wrapped in v given
that we're only wrapping a handfull of pixels).  This removes the vast
majority of the lines (all except at the threshold, and the longitudional
line where rwy numbers are made of 2 digits).  You can still test Andy's
plib patch by using the 2D c172 (--aircraft=c172p-2dpanel) which will
almost certainly exhibit panel jointing problems if you've been seeing
runway lines.
 

Dave,
Based on all my knowledge of OpenGL, this is the wrong thing to do and 
will introduce additional (although possibly less visible) artifacts at 
the edges.  The visual results should be examined *very* carefully.  I 
don't think this is what we want to do.

Curt.
--
Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt 
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-16 Thread Martin Spott
David Luff wrote:

 It requires openGL-1.2 for the patch to take effect, which I don't have on
 Cygwin.  If your SGI is openGL-1.2 capable, then perhaps you could see if
 it makes any difference on your system?

Hmmm   this is IRIX-6.5.22:

sirius: 22:33:55 ~ glxinfo
display: :0.0
server glx vendor string: SGI
server glx version string: 1.3 Irix 6.5
server glx extensions (GLX_):
EXT_import_context, EXT_visual_info, EXT_visual_rating,
SGI_make_current_read, SGI_swap_control, SGI_video_sync, SGIX_fbconfig,
SGIX_pbuffer, SGIX_swap_group.
client glx version 1.3
client glx extensions (GLX_):
EXT_import_context, EXT_visual_info, EXT_visual_rating,
SGI_make_current_read, SGI_swap_control, SGI_video_sync, SGIX_fbconfig,
SGIX_pbuffer, SGIX_swap_group.
OpenGL vendor string: SGI
OpenGL renderer string: IMPACT/2/2/4
OpenGL version string: 1.1 Irix 6.5
[...]


Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-15 Thread David Luff


On 12/5/04 at 9:21 PM Martin Spott wrote:

David Luff wrote:
 Completely off topic, your screenshots look like you're getting dark
lines
 at runway texture boundaries similar to what I see on an ATI machine,
but
 not on a NVidia machine.  Are you also on an ATI card, and am I correct
in
 thinking that Andy Ross might have once produced a plib patch to cure
this
 - does anyone know if it ever went into plib or not?

Sorry, I'm not aware of such a PLIB patch but I'm definitely not an
authoritative source of information in this topic.
My screenshot was made on an SGI Octane MaxImpact, no ATI, no NVidia -
but probably a platform that you'd be willing to declare as OpenGL
reference platform  :-)


I've finally found the patch, and it didn't go into plib.  The patch and
description of it are at:

http://mail.flightgear.org/pipermail/flightgear-devel/2002-December/014095.h
tml

It requires openGL-1.2 for the patch to take effect, which I don't have on
Cygwin.  If your SGI is openGL-1.2 capable, then perhaps you could see if
it makes any difference on your system?

Cheers - Dave


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-09 Thread Jason Cox
Dale,
that sound good if you could send them it would help 
thanks 
jason cox

On Wed, 2004-12-08 at 23:15 -0800, Dale E. Edmons wrote:
 Jason,
 
 Jason Cox wrote:
 
 Curt,
  In my on going quest to compile local scenery, I was wondering if you
 just run a script that makes all the scenery or do you do each step
 individualy ?
   
 
 I've got some scripts I use.  I mostly just use the stuff Curt 
 outlined.  If you'd
 like to have them let me know and I can send them.  I'll have to edit 
 them first
 as they have many commented lines right now.  They work with the previous
 scenery code but currently don't build the new stuff.
 
 In the end, after I have things properly set up I just do: bld-scenery
 and wait for the results (errors or useable data). 
 
 
 Dale
 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-09 Thread Dale E. Edmons
Jason,
I sent the scripts to you directly.  I didn't know if mail list would 
take them.
Let me know if you get them to work.  Under the current CVS most of the
airport don't show up after a bld-scenery (last time I checked).  I 
haven't had
time to look into it but I think Curt is still working on the CVS.

Dale
Jason Cox wrote:
Dale,
that sound good if you could send them it would help 
thanks 
jason cox

On Wed, 2004-12-08 at 23:15 -0800, Dale E. Edmons wrote:
 

Jason,
Jason Cox wrote:
   

Curt,
In my on going quest to compile local scenery, I was wondering if you
just run a script that makes all the scenery or do you do each step
individualy ?   
 

I've got some scripts I use.  I mostly just use the stuff Curt 
outlined.  If you'd
like to have them let me know and I can send them.  I'll have to edit 
them first
as they have many commented lines right now.  They work with the previous
scenery code but currently don't build the new stuff.

In the end, after I have things properly set up I just do: bld-scenery
and wait for the results (errors or useable data). 

Dale
   


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-06 Thread Martin Spott
Martin Spott wrote:
 David Luff wrote:

  Completely off topic, your screenshots look like you're getting dark lines
  at runway texture boundaries similar to what I see on an ATI machine, but
  not on a NVidia machine.
[...]
 My screenshot was made on an SGI Octane MaxImpact, no ATI, no NVidia -

It looks like pretty much the same on an ATI card (Radeon9200/XOrg),

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-05 Thread David Luff


On 12/5/04 at 5:35 PM Martin Spott wrote:

Martin Spott wrote:

 I had a quick look at my favourite airfield yesterday and I saw that
 the modified airport generator somehow shows similarities to TaxiDraw:
 They both don't render stopways.

Would someone please be so kind to comment on this claim ? Did I get
things wrong or is it actually the case that the airport generator
'forgot' to create these stopways ? Can anyone confirm the assumption
that the stopways are missing - for example by comparing a known 'real'
airfield with the new scenery ?


Hi Martin,

There appear to be no stopway textures in the FlightGear base package, so
without digging through the genapts runway generation code (yet) I'm
guessing that stopways aren't supported by genapts yet.  Definately
something to fix before the next scenery rebuild IMHO.  The latest TaxiDraw
code shows stopways as an ugly shade of yellow ochre BTW - it shouldn't be
too long before it's bug-checked enough to release.

Completely off topic, your screenshots look like you're getting dark lines
at runway texture boundaries similar to what I see on an ATI machine, but
not on a NVidia machine.  Are you also on an ATI card, and am I correct in
thinking that Andy Ross might have once produced a plib patch to cure this
- does anyone know if it ever went into plib or not?

Cheers - Dave


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-05 Thread Curtis L. Olson
Martin Spott wrote:
Would someone please be so kind to comment on this claim ? Did I get
things wrong or is it actually the case that the airport generator
'forgot' to create these stopways ? Can anyone confirm the assumption
that the stopways are missing - for example by comparing a known 'real'
airfield with the new scenery ?
 

Right, the airport generator does not create stopways yet.
Curt.
--
Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-05 Thread Martin Spott
David Luff wrote:

 There appear to be no stopway textures in the FlightGear base package, so
 without digging through the genapts runway generation code (yet) I'm
 guessing that stopways aren't supported by genapts yet.

Ah, fine - I already thought I'd be crazy   probably I actually am
so anyways  ;-)

 Completely off topic, your screenshots look like you're getting dark lines
 at runway texture boundaries similar to what I see on an ATI machine, but
 not on a NVidia machine.  Are you also on an ATI card, and am I correct in
 thinking that Andy Ross might have once produced a plib patch to cure this
 - does anyone know if it ever went into plib or not?

Sorry, I'm not aware of such a PLIB patch but I'm definitely not an
authoritative source of information in this topic.
My screenshot was made on an SGI Octane MaxImpact, no ATI, no NVidia -
but probably a platform that you'd be willing to declare as OpenGL
reference platform  :-)

Thanks for your response,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-05 Thread Frederic Bouvier
Selon David Luff :
 Completely off topic, your screenshots look like you're getting dark lines
 at runway texture boundaries similar to what I see on an ATI machine, but
 not on a NVidia machine.  Are you also on an ATI card, and am I correct in
 thinking that Andy Ross might have once produced a plib patch to cure this
 - does anyone know if it ever went into plib or not?

I have them also with NVidia 5900FX. I think it is related with highest level of
filtering.

I am quite sure the problem lies in the genapt code but I hadn't time to
investigate yet. There is something that seems strange though. This comment
appears at line 93 of rwy_prec.cxx

// we add 2' to the length for texture overlap.  This puts the
// lines on the texture back to the edge of the runway where they
// belong.

I wonder if that overlap is not the problem. As it does not show up with my GF3,
I guess it doesn't appears on GF4 too so perhaps this why Curt is not seeing
them ( otherwise he would surely have done something to cure them ). My
rationale here is that it is likely to be in the code because otherwhise we
would see them everywhere, not just on runways.

-Fred

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-05 Thread Martin Spott
David Luff wrote:

 [...] The latest TaxiDraw
 code shows stopways as an ugly shade of yellow ochre BTW [...]

That's great ! To complete the picture, would you consider to add a
visual marker for the threshold ? Probably you could later add a
property to this marker that connects to the - if present -
displacement of the threshold (in feet), similar to the properties of
runways and taixways,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-05 Thread David Luff
Martin Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 David Luff wrote:
 
  [...] The latest TaxiDraw
  code shows stopways as an ugly shade of yellow ochre BTW [...]
 
 That's great ! To complete the picture, would you consider to add a
 visual marker for the threshold ? Probably you could later add a
 property to this marker that connects to the - if present -
 displacement of the threshold (in feet), similar to the properties of
 runways and taixways,
 

I've already got a revamped runways dialog that lets stopway and displaced 
threshold lengths be specified.  I guess I ought to add a visual indication of 
threshold position...

Cheers - Dave

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-04 Thread Martin Spott
Curtis L. Olson wrote:
 I am currently working on building the latest round of world scenery for 
 FlightGear.  I'm not done, so don't consider this to be the official 
 announcement.  However, for those that want to get a jump on the 
 competition, you can find the new scenery here:

I had a quick look at my favourite airfield yesterday and I saw that
the modified airport generator somehow shows similarities to TaxiDraw:
They both don't render stopways. Although the shape of the green
boundary suggests the presence of a stopway, it actually isn't there.
I don't have the time to provide screenshots this morning because I
have to leave soon, anyone interested might have a look at LCHM (only
available in David's airfiled data).

Cheers,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-03 Thread Jason Cox
Curt,
In my on going quest to compile local scenery, I was wondering if you
just run a script that makes all the scenery or do you do each step
individualy ?   
If you do run a script, is it posible for you to release it to the list
or on FlightGear ?
thanks
jason cox

On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 21:47 -0600, Curtis L. Olson wrote:
 I am currently working on building the latest round of world scenery for 
 FlightGear.  I'm not done, so don't consider this to be the official 
 announcement.  However, for those that want to get a jump on the 
 competition, you can find the new scenery here:
 
 ftp://ftp.flightgear.org/pub/fgfs/Scenery-0.9.7/
 
 This scenery should work just fine with the 0.9.6 version, but some 
 radio towers will look better running with the current CVS version of FG 
 ... not a big deal.
 
 There is nothing ground breaking in this new build.  It is mostly a 
 collection of small fixes, and is based on the latest[1] airport data 
 from Robin Peel including many submissions from FG developers and 
 users.  I've done quite a bit of addition work on airport surfaces so 
 the little odd cliffs that showed up in a few places mid-runway should 
 now be gone.
 
 [1] Well, the latest data as of the start of my build ... figures he 
 would release an update before I was finished, but I'm past the point of 
 no return now.
 
 Regards,
 
 Curt.
 


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-03 Thread Curtis L. Olson
Jason Cox wrote:
Curt,
	In my on going quest to compile local scenery, I was wondering if you
just run a script that makes all the scenery or do you do each step
individualy ?	
If you do run a script, is it posible for you to release it to the list
or on FlightGear ?
thanks
jason cox
 

Jason,
I typically run the individual prep tools by hand ... and for the most 
part, once that's done, it's done and I don't have to do it again unless 
the underlying data changes (i.e. an update to vmap0 is released, or an 
update to SRTM, etc.)  And in that case, I just have to re-prep that 
particular data set.

The one item that changes frequently is the airport data, but I run that 
tool by hand as well.

For the final scenery assembly, all the frontend scripts I run are in 
the src/BuildTiles/Parallel/ directory.  This allows me to run a task 
server to manage the build (or a portion of it) and then I can throw as 
many clients as I  have available at the job of actually building 
scenery.  This is very disk io intensive though so it's not as conducive 
to massively distributing the work (like SETI for instance.)

Regards,
Curt.
--
Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-03 Thread Arnt Karlsen
On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:40:12 -0600, Curtis wrote in message 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:

..the size, is like last one, or will this new build be much bigger 
than the 0.9.5 scenery?  (~12.6G)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-03 Thread Curtis L. Olson
Arnt Karlsen wrote:
On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 14:40:12 -0600, Curtis wrote in message 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:

..the size, is like last one, or will this new build be much bigger 
than the 0.9.5 scenery?  (~12.6G)
 

I haven't looked closely, but it should be pretty similar.
Curt.
--
Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
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[Flightgear-devel] New scenery build

2004-12-02 Thread Curtis L. Olson
I am currently working on building the latest round of world scenery for 
FlightGear.  I'm not done, so don't consider this to be the official 
announcement.  However, for those that want to get a jump on the 
competition, you can find the new scenery here:

   ftp://ftp.flightgear.org/pub/fgfs/Scenery-0.9.7/
This scenery should work just fine with the 0.9.6 version, but some 
radio towers will look better running with the current CVS version of FG 
... not a big deal.

There is nothing ground breaking in this new build.  It is mostly a 
collection of small fixes, and is based on the latest[1] airport data 
from Robin Peel including many submissions from FG developers and 
users.  I've done quite a bit of addition work on airport surfaces so 
the little odd cliffs that showed up in a few places mid-runway should 
now be gone.

[1] Well, the latest data as of the start of my build ... figures he 
would release an update before I was finished, but I'm past the point of 
no return now.

Regards,
Curt.
--
Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
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