Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Tuesday 18 Jan 2005 22:31, Lee Elliott wrote: > > I loved the entry for the ufo:) > > LeeE > > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org > http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel > 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d Dammit! Its a conspiracy! Dave Martin ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Monday 17 January 2005 18:49, Curtis L. Olson wrote: > For the upcoming release of FG, I'm working on a couple > scripts to create/manage a web page for individual downloads. > Here is where I'm at so far. There is plenty room for > improvement, but this will at least get us started: > > http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/aircraft/ > > If aircraft developers put a 171x128 pixel image in the top > aicraft directory called "thumbnail.png", this will > automatically get picked up and put on the web page. There's > no need to get these all populated before the v0.9.8 image, > but it would be great if people could start filling thes in > with nice pictures. The one's I created can be replaced if > someone comes up with something better. > > Aircraft developers can continue to use our base package cvs, > or they can maintain their files locally and submit a ready to > install .tgz package ... either way will work fine. > > As part of this, I hope to significantly trim down the default > base package. > > There are obvious areas of improvement such as categorizing > the aircraft and putting them in their own sections (and we > should do that eventually) but this at least is a workable > starting point for this release. > > Regards, > > Curt. I loved the entry for the ufo:) LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Jim Wilson wrote: I'm done doing thumbs for now. Feel free to replace the ones I've posted with improved versions, especially authors may want to. Hi Jim, Thanks for all your efforts (and thanks to everyone else who's generated thumbnail images or filled in missing fields.) Related(?) question: Would it be possible to combine all the c172 stuff under one directory (or maybe two, since the c172p model is a complete package)? Otherwise we probably should tell people they've got to download the c172_*.tar.gz file as a pre-requisite in order for the c172le, c172r, c172x, etc. to work. I understand how we got where we are with the c172 stuff, but I think I can say that it is a big hairy mess. It would be nice to get someone to clean it up and break all those of the bizarre and twisted dependencies. On a similar subject, I vote that for aircraft with only one variant, we get rid of all "alias" entries. We can add them back later if we need to differentiate between a jsbsim vs. yasim version, but many aircraft have a single alias pointing to a single model and there probably will only ever be that one model. The unneeded alias just clutters things up in my opinion. Any one want to work on cleaning some of those up? Once we are happy with the current state of things, I'd like to propose we add tags to the aircraft-set.xml files. We can debate the categories and we should allow multiple categories. This will allow us to better organize the aircraft downloads page which will become increasingly important as more aircraft are added. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
"Curtis L. Olson" said: > Jon Berndt wrote: > > >>In addition to the tag, I also support a and > >>tags. It would be great if people could go through and fill in these > >>fields as they can. > >> > >> > > > >Is that for the FDM? JSBSim v2 config files will feature this header (partially in working > >with the DAVE-ML spec): > > > > > > Tony Peden > > 1999 > > Models a 1997 Cessna 172R. > > $Id: c172x.xml,v 1.25.2.16 2005/01/13 13:52:39 jberndt$ > > > > > > > > > > Actually, for building the web page, the script is looking in the > aircraft-set.xml file(s). > I'm done doing thumbs for now. Feel free to replace the ones I've posted with improved versions, especially authors may want to. Related(?) question: Would it be possible to combine all the c172 stuff under one directory (or maybe two, since the c172p model is a complete package)? Otherwise we probably should tell people they've got to download the c172_*.tar.gz file as a pre-requisite in order for the c172le, c172r, c172x, etc. to work. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
"Curtis L. Olson" said: > Chris Metzler wrote: > > >Cool. The one thing I'd recommend is including info about development > >status (at the very least, the one-word status that's used in the > >--min-status command line switch). Without it, there will be users > >d'l'ing a plane with great enthusiasm only to be disappointed to find > >that it's in alpha with no panel and no real FDM, etc. > > > > > > Ok, I've add that. So here is a request for help: > > In addition to the tag, I also support a and > tags. It would be great if people could go through and fill in these > fields as they can. Also, I'm happy to take thumbnail.jpg (171x128 > pxls) submissions for any planes that don't have them. If you are the > author of a plane and someone already sent in a thumbnail for your > aircraft, feel free to supercede the original submission with an > official thumbnail for your aircraft. > Hi Curt, Help is on the way. Doing this has been beckoning me all afternoon, but fortunately family got in the way again ;-). Later tonight and/or in the morning I'll do a bunch. I know quite a few of the authors and have a folder of screen caps. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Jon Berndt wrote: In addition to the tag, I also support a and tags. It would be great if people could go through and fill in these fields as they can. Is that for the FDM? JSBSim v2 config files will feature this header (partially in working with the DAVE-ML spec): Tony Peden 1999 Models a 1997 Cessna 172R. $Id: c172x.xml,v 1.25.2.16 2005/01/13 13:52:39 jberndt$ Actually, for building the web page, the script is looking in the aircraft-set.xml file(s). Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
> In addition to the tag, I also support a and > tags. It would be great if people could go through and fill in these > fields as they can. Is that for the FDM? JSBSim v2 config files will feature this header (partially in working with the DAVE-ML spec): Tony Peden 1999 Models a 1997 Cessna 172R. $Id: c172x.xml,v 1.25.2.16 2005/01/13 13:52:39 jberndt$ JOn ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Chris Metzler wrote: Cool. The one thing I'd recommend is including info about development status (at the very least, the one-word status that's used in the --min-status command line switch). Without it, there will be users d'l'ing a plane with great enthusiasm only to be disappointed to find that it's in alpha with no panel and no real FDM, etc. Ok, I've add that. So here is a request for help: In addition to the tag, I also support a and tags. It would be great if people could go through and fill in these fields as they can. Also, I'm happy to take thumbnail.jpg (171x128 pxls) submissions for any planes that don't have them. If you are the author of a plane and someone already sent in a thumbnail for your aircraft, feel free to supercede the original submission with an official thumbnail for your aircraft. Thanks, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Tuesday, 18 January 2005 00:32, Arthur Wiebe wrote: > You can also lower the quality of PNG image as well as up the > compression level. Doing so can make PNG's smaller than JPEG's. Now you've made me curious. I was using GIMP2 and set the compression to level 9 (max) How how does one lower the actual quality of a PNG if it's a lossless format? Must I convert it to an 8-bit image first before saving it as a PNG (or something like that) to throw away some info outside of the PNG format? Paul ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:49:49 -0600 Curtis L. Olson wrote: > > For the upcoming release of FG, I'm working on a couple scripts to > create/manage a web page for individual downloads. Here is where I'm at > > so far. There is plenty room for improvement, but this will at least > get us started: > > http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/aircraft/ Cool. The one thing I'd recommend is including info about development status (at the very least, the one-word status that's used in the --min-status command line switch). Without it, there will be users d'l'ing a plane with great enthusiasm only to be disappointed to find that it's in alpha with no panel and no real FDM, etc. -c -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove "snip-me." to email) "As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized." - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgpL767vpkFiL.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
You can also lower the quality of PNG image as well as up the compression level. Doing so can make PNG's smaller than JPEG's. For example a top quality JPEG has a larger file size than a best quality PNG. So I don't know what you use to create the PNG's but you should be able to edit these settings. On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:03:06 -0600, Curtis L. Olson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A fair point ... I'll take care of it ... > > Curt. > > > Paul Surgeon wrote: > > >I don't want to sound like someone who likes to nitpik but ... :) > > > >Is there any good reason to use PNGs for the thumbnails? > >There will be 60 aircraft thumbnails and we are averaging about 32K per > >thumbnail at the moment even with max PNG compression. > >That equates to nearly 2MB just for thumbnails. > >JPG can do it in 360K at 85% quality (average of 6KB per thumbnail) with no > >visual difference to the naked eye. > > > >I know PNG is lossless and JPG is evil because it's not LGPL but I think it's > >the right tool for the job (photos on web pages). > > > >Some of us don't have the luxury/option of high speed Internet connections > >and > >a 2MB web page takes 6 minutes to download on a 64K line. > > > >Paul > > > >On Monday, 17 January 2005 20:49, Curtis L. Olson wrote: > > > > > >>For the upcoming release of FG, I'm working on a couple scripts to > >>create/manage a web page for individual downloads. Here is where I'm at > >>so far. There is plenty room for improvement, but this will at least > >>get us started: > >> > >>http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/aircraft/ > >> > >>If aircraft developers put a 171x128 pixel image in the top aicraft > >>directory called "thumbnail.png", this will automatically get picked up > >>and put on the web page. There's no need to get these all populated > >>before the v0.9.8 image, but it would be great if people could start > >>filling thes in with nice pictures. The one's I created can be replaced > >>if someone comes up with something better. > >> > >>Aircraft developers can continue to use our base package cvs, or they > >>can maintain their files locally and submit a ready to install .tgz > >>package ... either way will work fine. > >> > >>As part of this, I hope to significantly trim down the default base > >>package. > >> > >>There are obvious areas of improvement such as categorizing the aircraft > >>and putting them in their own sections (and we should do that > >>eventually) but this at least is a workable starting point for this > >>release. > >> > >>Regards, > >> > >>Curt. > >> > >> > > > >___ > >Flightgear-devel mailing list > >Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org > >http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel > >2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d > > > > > > -- > Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt > HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ > FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org > Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d > > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org > http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel > 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d > -- - http://artooro.blogspot.com (Weblog) - http://machcms.sourceforge.net (MachCMS Project) - http://acalproj.sourceforge.net (Calendar Project) ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
A fair point ... I'll take care of it ... Curt. Paul Surgeon wrote: I don't want to sound like someone who likes to nitpik but ... :) Is there any good reason to use PNGs for the thumbnails? There will be 60 aircraft thumbnails and we are averaging about 32K per thumbnail at the moment even with max PNG compression. That equates to nearly 2MB just for thumbnails. JPG can do it in 360K at 85% quality (average of 6KB per thumbnail) with no visual difference to the naked eye. I know PNG is lossless and JPG is evil because it's not LGPL but I think it's the right tool for the job (photos on web pages). Some of us don't have the luxury/option of high speed Internet connections and a 2MB web page takes 6 minutes to download on a 64K line. Paul On Monday, 17 January 2005 20:49, Curtis L. Olson wrote: For the upcoming release of FG, I'm working on a couple scripts to create/manage a web page for individual downloads. Here is where I'm at so far. There is plenty room for improvement, but this will at least get us started: http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/aircraft/ If aircraft developers put a 171x128 pixel image in the top aicraft directory called "thumbnail.png", this will automatically get picked up and put on the web page. There's no need to get these all populated before the v0.9.8 image, but it would be great if people could start filling thes in with nice pictures. The one's I created can be replaced if someone comes up with something better. Aircraft developers can continue to use our base package cvs, or they can maintain their files locally and submit a ready to install .tgz package ... either way will work fine. As part of this, I hope to significantly trim down the default base package. There are obvious areas of improvement such as categorizing the aircraft and putting them in their own sections (and we should do that eventually) but this at least is a workable starting point for this release. Regards, Curt. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
I don't want to sound like someone who likes to nitpik but ... :) Is there any good reason to use PNGs for the thumbnails? There will be 60 aircraft thumbnails and we are averaging about 32K per thumbnail at the moment even with max PNG compression. That equates to nearly 2MB just for thumbnails. JPG can do it in 360K at 85% quality (average of 6KB per thumbnail) with no visual difference to the naked eye. I know PNG is lossless and JPG is evil because it's not LGPL but I think it's the right tool for the job (photos on web pages). Some of us don't have the luxury/option of high speed Internet connections and a 2MB web page takes 6 minutes to download on a 64K line. Paul On Monday, 17 January 2005 20:49, Curtis L. Olson wrote: > For the upcoming release of FG, I'm working on a couple scripts to > create/manage a web page for individual downloads. Here is where I'm at > so far. There is plenty room for improvement, but this will at least > get us started: > > http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/aircraft/ > > If aircraft developers put a 171x128 pixel image in the top aicraft > directory called "thumbnail.png", this will automatically get picked up > and put on the web page. There's no need to get these all populated > before the v0.9.8 image, but it would be great if people could start > filling thes in with nice pictures. The one's I created can be replaced > if someone comes up with something better. > > Aircraft developers can continue to use our base package cvs, or they > can maintain their files locally and submit a ready to install .tgz > package ... either way will work fine. > > As part of this, I hope to significantly trim down the default base > package. > > There are obvious areas of improvement such as categorizing the aircraft > and putting them in their own sections (and we should do that > eventually) but this at least is a workable starting point for this > release. > > Regards, > > Curt. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 21:12:01 + Lee Elliott wrote: >On Friday 07 January 2005 07:35, Chris Metzler wrote: >>On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:48:27 +0200 Paul Surgeon wrote: >>> It would be really nice if the level of development was >>> listed as well as a brief description about the aircraft. >>> That would help people decide whether they really want to >>> download the aircraft or not. >>> >>> For example : >>> --- >>> Development level : Beta >>> Description : This Airbus XYZ was built in 19xx. >>> 2000 of them were build before production stopped in 19xx. >>> Please note that the hydraulic system is not fully >>> operational at this stage. >> >> I think this is a good idea. Even if it's just at the >> "alpha"/"beta"/ "finished" level. > > Wasn't this addressed via the tag in the set files? Yes. But that doesn't directly help the potential downloader of an aircraft, since they can't look at that info without first downloading the aircraft -- unless it's incorporated into Curt's webpage somehow, which is what Paul suggested. -c -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove "snip-me." to email) "As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized." - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgp6Uny4IXegA.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Friday 07 January 2005 07:35, Chris Metzler wrote: > On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:48:27 +0200 > > Paul Surgeon wrote: > > It would be really nice if the level of development was > > listed as well as a brief description about the aircraft. > > That would help people decide whether they really want to > > download the aircraft or not. > > > > For example : > > --- > > Development level : Beta > > Description : This Airbus XYZ was built in 19xx. > > 2000 of them were build before production stopped in 19xx. > > Please note that the hydraulic system is not fully > > operational at this stage. > > I think this is a good idea. Even if it's just at the > "alpha"/"beta"/ "finished" level. > > -c Wasn't this addressed via the tag in the set files? LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Chris Metzler wrote: On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:02:32 +0100 Erik Hofman wrote: No wait, this is the only option where the order is important. This does work: fgfs --min-status=production --show-aircraft Right, but doesn't this presume that they already have the aircraft installed? I just checked -- the min-status flag appears to act as a filter on the list of aircraft that you already have installed. So if you're looking at installing an aircraft from Curt's web page, you won't get that info until after you've installed it . . .hence the suggestion to include that info, at least in terse form, on the page. Ah, ok. I must have missed that. But since the information should be there already it can be added to the download page (It's in the -set.xml configuration file, just like the description). Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Friday, 7 January 2005 11:09, Erik Hofman wrote: > That part was already implemented but seems to have broken along the > lines. The idea was this: > > fgfs --show-aircraft --min-status=production We were refering to the web page that Curt is putting up and not FG itself. Paul ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:02:32 +0100 Erik Hofman wrote: > > No wait, this is the only option where the order is important. This does > > work: > > fgfs --min-status=production --show-aircraft Right, but doesn't this presume that they already have the aircraft installed? I just checked -- the min-status flag appears to act as a filter on the list of aircraft that you already have installed. So if you're looking at installing an aircraft from Curt's web page, you won't get that info until after you've installed it . . .hence the suggestion to include that info, at least in terse form, on the page. -c -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove "snip-me." to email) "As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized." - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgpyZ25YoE35E.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Erik Hofman wrote: Chris Metzler wrote: I think this is a good idea. Even if it's just at the "alpha"/"beta"/ "finished" level. That part was already implemented but seems to have broken along the lines. The idea was this: fgfs --show-aircraft --min-status=production No wait, this is the only option where the order is important. This does work: fgfs --min-status=production --show-aircraft Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Chris Metzler wrote: I think this is a good idea. Even if it's just at the "alpha"/"beta"/ "finished" level. That part was already implemented but seems to have broken along the lines. The idea was this: fgfs --show-aircraft --min-status=production Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:48:27 +0200 Paul Surgeon wrote: > > It would be really nice if the level of development was listed as well > as a brief description about the aircraft. > That would help people decide whether they really want to download the > aircraft or not. > > For example : > --- > Development level : Beta > Description : This Airbus XYZ was built in 19xx. > 2000 of them were build before production stopped in 19xx. > Please note that the hydraulic system is not fully operational at this > stage. I think this is a good idea. Even if it's just at the "alpha"/"beta"/ "finished" level. -c -- Chris Metzler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (remove "snip-me." to email) "As a child I understood how to give; I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized." - Chief Luther Standing Bear pgpO1kzM8ATH6.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Arnt Karlsen schrieb: >>Zip files are everywhere, we aren't going to get sued for using them, > > > ..no? ;-) Never heard of The SCO Group and Microsoft? > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20041228040645419 or > http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653 > and http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2005010406110017 If somebody want's to sue someone for using .ZIPs I wouldn't know any reason. But even if there's a hidden trap (-> .GIF) then there'll be a huge media coverage (because .zips are everywhere) and we definitely won't the first one to be sued. So we would have enough time to remove those files. But all of that is highly unlikely. I don't see why we should run away from an unlikely event, when the alternative is, that the users run away, becuase they don't know what to do. CU, Christian -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFB3SJblhWtxOxWNFcRAmqxAJ9XlHsxSHl6Y8J96qwztE33Ic6sFwCgr7jg 5Kq69WTLEdLo+ZEvC8p/Cf0= =+I5Z -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:30:04 -, Jim wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Erik Hofman said: > > > Jim Wilson wrote: > > > > > Unzip is an archiver and runs on just about anything. Comes with > > > several linux distributions as well. > > > > Yes, but not all. That's the point. Should we honor Windows users > > where there are some version of windows that ship with an ZIP > > extractor or honor the UNIX world that comes standard with tar and > > gzip? > > > > http://www.info-zip.org/pub/infozip/UnZip.html > > Is that less "all" than gzip? I think we should honor windows users > because like it or not (I don't like it myself) they are 90%+ of the > users out there. > That would not be the case with flightgear because we haven't made it > particularly easy for Windows users (non-developers on any os) to use > the program (the windows installer is fairly recent). ..can this installer be set up to use it's own temporary ".exe"-style decompression tools using GNU gunzip, GNU tar etc? > Zip files are everywhere, we aren't going to get sued for using them, ..no? ;-) Never heard of The SCO Group and Microsoft? http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20041228040645419 or http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653 and http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2005010406110017 -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 18:03:38 -, Vivian wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Our Windows users (and they are probably the majority) for the most > part expect everything to be done for them, and for it all to work > right out of the box. Otherwise, they will give up at the first > hurdle, and, what is more important, then give us a bad name. ..2 ways to handle these Windroids; 1. make a does-it-all-in-2-clicks installer, 2. scare'm away with "This is a development project and if you don't know your C++ etc and cvs patch hacks, go away!" ;-) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Dave Martin wrote: Christian Mayer wrote: > > > Dave Martin schrieb: > > > > I could make a really scathing comment about that using words like > plib, > > > OpenAL and SimGear... > > > > But those are for *developers* and not *users*. > > > I was more making the point that unless a Linux *user* uses one of the > distro's which is compatable with the pre-compiled binaries, they will be > building from source too. This would normally entail getting and building > plib, SimGear and OpenAL first; a task which, generally, most Linux users > are > happy to do. > > This, of course, leads to - "If Linux users are prepared to do X,Y and Z, > surely Windows users could manage to install a little tar.gz handling > program > that comes with a pretty binary installer?" > > There, you've made me say it now and I'm going to get shouted at ;-) > Personally, downloading and recompiling plib, cvs et al. code is no big issue: I do it most days. I don't see the problem for developers, we (or most of us) have the necessary tools and knowledge. And most of us only RTFI after we have tried everything else. Our Windows users (and they are probably the majority) for the most part expect everything to be done for them, and for it all to work right out of the box. Otherwise, they will give up at the first hurdle, and, what is more important, then give us a bad name. Regards, Vivian ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Erik Hofman said: > Jim Wilson wrote: > > > Unzip is an archiver and runs on just about anything. Comes with several > > linux distributions as well. > > Yes, but not all. That's the point. Should we honor Windows users where > there are some version of windows that ship with an ZIP extractor or > honor the UNIX world that comes standard with tar and gzip? > http://www.info-zip.org/pub/infozip/UnZip.html Is that less "all" than gzip? I think we should honor windows users because like it or not (I don't like it myself) they are 90%+ of the users out there. That would not be the case with flightgear because we haven't made it particularly easy for Windows users (non-developers on any os) to use the program (the windows installer is fairly recent). Zip files are everywhere, we aren't going to get sued for using them, and I would suggest that there are _very_ few people who do not have the ability to extract a zip file somehow. But I can imagine a lot of windows users won't know what to do with a gz or tgz file. Note that I am a long time unix and linux user and tar and gzip are my tools of preference. That's not what this is about. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Wednesday 05 Jan 2005 10:44, Christian Mayer wrote: > Dave Martin schrieb: > > I could make a really scathing comment about that using words like plib, > > OpenAL and SimGear... > > But those are for *developers* and not *users*. > I was more making the point that unless a Linux *user* uses one of the distro's which is compatable with the pre-compiled binaries, they will be building from source too. This would normally entail getting and building plib, SimGear and OpenAL first; a task which, generally, most Linux users are happy to do. This, of course, leads to - "If Linux users are prepared to do X,Y and Z, surely Windows users could manage to install a little tar.gz handling program that comes with a pretty binary installer?" There, you've made me say it now and I'm going to get shouted at ;-) Dave Martin ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
James Turner wrote: > For some reason, I have never seen code to do this with the .tar.gz > format, thought in principle it should work; the issue is that ZIPs > have a table of contents that can be read without extracting all the > files, whereas for a .tar.gz I think you'd have to uncompresss the > whole contents and then start examining the tarball. This is indeed a valid point - if we really aim at putting compressed archives into the aircraft directory. On the other hand: FG has to decompress the whole archive anyway in order to 'build' an aircraft from it ;-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dave Martin schrieb: > On Wednesday 05 Jan 2005 09:22, Vivian Meazza wrote: > > > >>We should do both - that seems to be the solution adopted by most web sites >>which offer downloads. Why should we be different? We should not expect >>windows or UNIX users to download and install some additional software. > > > I could make a really scathing comment about that using words like plib, > OpenAL and SimGear... But those are for *developers* and not *users*. - From an developer I can expect to have more powerfull tools than an user. Oh, and these files should also be offered as .ZIPs anyway. Hardly any extra work and nice for the developer (who is already annoyed by dependancies) CU, Christian -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFB28UWlhWtxOxWNFcRAr+UAKCNngqHXjwVjNFVXayCRCDV0ugVwACfW4SW FvJRZm8jB548CPRkr/7/El4= =ZKvc -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Wednesday 05 Jan 2005 09:22, Vivian Meazza wrote: > We should do both - that seems to be the solution adopted by most web sites > which offer downloads. Why should we be different? We should not expect > windows or UNIX users to download and install some additional software. I could make a really scathing comment about that using words like plib, OpenAL and SimGear... But I won't ;-P Dave Martin ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Erik Hofman wrote: > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:flightgear-devel- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Sent: 05 January 2005 09:00 > To: FlightGear developers discussions > Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads > > Jim Wilson wrote: > > > Unzip is an archiver and runs on just about anything. Comes with > several > > linux distributions as well. > > Yes, but not all. That's the point. Should we honor Windows users where > there are some version of windows that ship with an ZIP extractor or > honor the UNIX world that comes standard with tar and gzip? > We should do both - that seems to be the solution adopted by most web sites which offer downloads. Why should we be different? We should not expect windows or UNIX users to download and install some additional software. Personally, I use whichever I feel like, then extract using whatever tool I have at hand, but we should not expect the average user to be as flexible or have the necessary tools. My 2 pence worth. Regards, Vivian ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Jim Wilson wrote: Unzip is an archiver and runs on just about anything. Comes with several linux distributions as well. Yes, but not all. That's the point. Should we honor Windows users where there are some version of windows that ship with an ZIP extractor or honor the UNIX world that comes standard with tar and gzip? Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Jim Wilson wrote: gzip extracts pkzip files. Maybe the Linux version, nut the one shipped with IRIX. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Roy Vegard Ovesen said: > On Wednesday 05 January 2005 01:47, Jim Wilson wrote: > > Jon Stockill said: > > > Jim Wilson wrote: > > > > gzip extracts pkzip files. > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ gunzip test.zip > > > gunzip: test.zip: unknown suffix -- ignored > > > > > > No it doesn't > > > > gunzip -S .zip test.zip > > > > Yes it does ;-) > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> gunzip -S .zip su27.zip > gunzip: su27.zip has more than one entry -- unchanged > > No it doesn't ;-)) > > I'd guess that the aircraft archives would have more than one entry as well. > Usually :-) Yes, I realized this right after clicking the send button. But unzip does work. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Wednesday 05 January 2005 01:47, Jim Wilson wrote: > Jon Stockill said: > > Jim Wilson wrote: > > > gzip extracts pkzip files. > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ gunzip test.zip > > gunzip: test.zip: unknown suffix -- ignored > > > > No it doesn't > > gunzip -S .zip test.zip > > Yes it does ;-) [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~> gunzip -S .zip su27.zip gunzip: su27.zip has more than one entry -- unchanged No it doesn't ;-)) I'd guess that the aircraft archives would have more than one entry as well. -- Roy Vegard Ovesen ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Jim Wilson said: > Jon Stockill said: > > > Jim Wilson wrote: > > > > > gzip extracts pkzip files. > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ gunzip test.zip > > gunzip: test.zip: unknown suffix -- ignored > > > > No it doesn't > > > > gunzip -S .zip test.zip > > Yes it does ;-) > Hmmm...think I had one of these: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?BrainFart Unzip is an archiver and runs on just about anything. Comes with several linux distributions as well. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Jim Wilson wrote: Jon Stockill said: Jim Wilson wrote: gzip extracts pkzip files. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ gunzip test.zip gunzip: test.zip: unknown suffix -- ignored No it doesn't gunzip -S .zip test.zip Yes it does ;-) That only handles a single file in the archive - so it'd work with a .tar.zip file (where zip is used as the compression on a tar archive), but not on a zip archive which contains multiple files. You just get the error: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ gunzip -S .zip test.zip gunzip: test.zip has more than one entry -- unchanged -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Jon Stockill said: > Jim Wilson wrote: > > > gzip extracts pkzip files. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ gunzip test.zip > gunzip: test.zip: unknown suffix -- ignored > > No it doesn't > gunzip -S .zip test.zip Yes it does ;-) Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On 4 Jan 2005, at 23:49, Jim Wilson wrote: tar and gzip come free out of the box on Unix. We have to get (un)zip separately to get it working. It's either way and I don't feel like giving windows users the benefit of the doubt (the number of windows _developers_ is frighteningly low compared to any UNIX flavor). gzip extracts pkzip files. Just to add an extra idea to the fire; many game engines [1] (and one bytecode computer language [2]) support reading data from compressed zip files (as certain datafiles in FG are already read from gzipped sources, I think). The code to do this can be as simple as a self contained, public-domain C file (that builds ontop of zlib), assuming only read-access is necessary. (If anyone wants the code, I can dig it out, we use it at my work for exactly this purpose) Hence, in the future, these files could be downloaded and dropped into an aircraft folder directly (this works for other kinds of 'pluggable' things too, such as scenery). The only penalty is the time taken to decompress the zip data when it's read, but zip decompression is very fast. Anyway, obviously not a priority, but it 'might be nice one day' For some reason, I have never seen code to do this with the .tar.gz format, thought in principle it should work; the issue is that ZIPs have a table of contents that can be read without extracting all the files, whereas for a .tar.gz I think you'd have to uncompresss the whole contents and then start examining the tarball. But I know very little of how tars are structured internally. H&H James [1] - Quake 3 (not sure about doom) uses zip renamed to PK3, earlier versions used a custom WAD format which was essentially the same idea. CrystalSpace supports 'mounting' a .zip to access textures / meshes / etc from it [2] - Java .jar files are zips with a magic file inside -- Morbo finds all humans pathetic ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Jim Wilson wrote: gzip extracts pkzip files. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ gunzip test.zip gunzip: test.zip: unknown suffix -- ignored No it doesn't -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Ioan Suciu wrote: This is realy a big problem about FG project ;) If a distro choosed to name the packages *.tgz we have to avoid that extension?? i'm a slak user and i hadn't met any problem with *.tgz files The slack packages are gzipped tarballs whose filenames end with .tgz rather than .tar.gz. They are constructed such that, when extracted while in the root directory, their files go to their installed locations. It is therefore possible (if inadvisable) to install packages without Slackware's package tools, using only tar and gzip, and making sure to run the doinst.sh script, if one was included in the package. mybe if Jon Stockill will make slack packages for aircafts this may be a isue If there's no other method of managing these tarballs then it would actually make sense (it's really not a huge effort to change the path of the data so that the aircraft could be managed with the native slackware package tools). I suspect that we're working towards a more cross platform solution though, such that flightgear will manage the aircraft. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Erik Hofman said: > Christian Mayer wrote: > > > That's why I prefer .zip. Then at least the WinXP users have a native, > > "free" tool that works out of the box. > > tar and gzip come free out of the box on Unix. > We have to get (un)zip separately to get it working. It's either way and > I don't feel like giving windows users the benefit of the doubt (the > number of windows _developers_ is frighteningly low compared to any UNIX > flavor). > gzip extracts pkzip files. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
"Oliver C." said: > On Tuesday 04 January 2005 11:37, Christian Mayer wrote: > > Oliver C. schrieb: > > | Could you change the file format from *.tgz to *.tar.gz? > > | > > | I ask because *.tgz is used by Slackware as a package format (it's a > > > > tar.gz > > > > | file with a install script in it) and this is leading to confusion > > | when you have Slackware *.tgz files and *.tgz files that are no Slackware > > | packages on your harddrive. > > | > > | So file endings called *.tar.gz would be much better than *.tgz. > > > > And what about *.zip? > > > > Linux can easily unzip those and Windows users have the unzipper already > > comming with their OS (when it is WinXP...) > > > > Yes, but *.zip is not a free format. That's not exactly true. It would make sense I think to use zip for maximum usability. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
This is realy a big problem about FG project ;) If a distro choosed to name the packages *.tgz we have to avoid that extension?? i'm a slak user and i hadn't met any problem with *.tgz files The slack packages are gzipped tarballs whose filenames end with .tgz rather than .tar.gz. They are constructed such that, when extracted while in the root directory, their files go to their installed locations. It is therefore possible (if inadvisable) to install packages without Slackware's package tools, using only tar and gzip, and making sure to run the doinst.sh script, if one was included in the package. mybe if Jon Stockill will make slack packages for aircafts this may be a isue IS ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Martin Spott writes: > > Dave Martin wrote: > > > How about a simple set of links on the same page to applications which can > > handle tar.gz on Windows. > > ftp://ftp.uni-duisburg.de/Windows/Win32/apps/powarc61.exe $ untarka untarka v0.34: super untar + untar.Z + untar.gz contains code (C) by [EMAIL PROTECTED] since 2003.01.28 This program is under GPL >=2.0. There is NO WARRANTY. Use at your own risk! Usage: untarka [-x] tarfile to extract all files untarka -x tarfile fname ... to extract selected files untarka -l tarfileto list archive contents untarka -hto display this help Source code is in $FlightGear / utils /fgadmin / src Here is an executable http://www.vso.cape.com/~nhv/files/untarka.exe Cheers Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Tuesday 04 January 2005 18:23, Christian Mayer wrote: > > but WinZip is commercial, isn't it !? > > Yes. As well as WinRAR and WinACE. Now we've got the most common ones. > There are also a ton of others. > > Personally I don't know any free ones (ok, I didn't do any excessive > research though). > 7-Zip is Open Source, runs under Windows and supports bzip2, gzip, tar.gz, .rpm, .deb and many others. Here is a link: http://www.7-zip.org > That's why I prefer .zip. Then at least the WinXP users have a native, > "free" tool that works out of the box. FlightGear is Open Source, so operating systems that are open source should come first and closed source operating system last. Best Regards, Oliver C. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Dave Martin wrote: > How about a simple set of links on the same page to applications which can > handle tar.gz on Windows. ftp://ftp.uni-duisburg.de/Windows/Win32/apps/powarc61.exe It's freeware, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Tuesday 04 Jan 2005 17:32, Erik Hofman wrote: > Christian Mayer wrote: > > That's why I prefer .zip. Then at least the WinXP users have a native, > > "free" tool that works out of the box. > > tar and gzip come free out of the box on Unix. > We have to get (un)zip separately to get it working. It's either way and > I don't feel like giving windows users the benefit of the doubt (the > number of windows _developers_ is frighteningly low compared to any UNIX > flavor). > > Erik How about a simple set of links on the same page to applications which can handle tar.gz on Windows. Dave Martin ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Monday, 3 January 2005 23:43, Curtis L. Olson wrote: >Here's a preview of something I'd like to have working in time for the >0.9.8 release. As we go forward it would be nice to have thumbnail >images for each aircraft. It would be really nice if the level of development was listed as well as a brief description about the aircraft. That would help people decide whether they really want to download the aircraft or not. For example : --- Development level : Beta Description : This Airbus XYZ was built in 19xx. 2000 of them were build before production stopped in 19xx. Please note that the hydraulic system is not fully operational at this stage. Just an idea ... Paul ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Christian Mayer wrote: That's why I prefer .zip. Then at least the WinXP users have a native, "free" tool that works out of the box. tar and gzip come free out of the box on Unix. We have to get (un)zip separately to get it working. It's either way and I don't feel like giving windows users the benefit of the doubt (the number of windows _developers_ is frighteningly low compared to any UNIX flavor). Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Martin Spott schrieb: > Jon Stockill wrote: > >>Martin Spott wrote: > > >>>But only then - and who wants WinXP without being forced to !? ;-) >>>On the other hand PowerArchiver for Windows easily handles .tar.gz or >>>.tgz files, >> >>As does winzip AFAICR. > > > but WinZip is commercial, isn't it !? Yes. As well as WinRAR and WinACE. Now we've got the most common ones. There are also a ton of others. Personally I don't know any free ones (ok, I didn't do any excessive research though). That's why I prefer .zip. Then at least the WinXP users have a native, "free" tool that works out of the box. Jon Stockill schrieb: > Christian Mayer wrote: > >> BTW: of all Windows versions you only want to use 2000 or XP (= 2000.1). >> The rest is either unstable (95, 98, ME) or doesn't run modern >> software (NT) > > > This doesn't alter the fact that there are still a lot of perfectly > capable systems out there running 98SE - they shouldn't be overlooked. And at work we've got still some Win95 computers running (for different reasons though) My basic message is: all Windows versions but XP must get a tool (and that'll handle not only .zip but also the rest). WinXP and its successors comes already with a tool - but that can only handle .zip. If the planes are in .tgz *all* Windows users *must* get a decompression tool. If the planes are in .zip a high percentage (but not all) of Windows users do not need an extra tool. > (Being someone who "knows about computers" results in being asked to fix > them by friends & family) I think that is a very common problem. But I have an excuse so that I don't need to look to thoroughly: if you are using Windows it's your problem, ask me again when you are running Linux... :) CU, Christian -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFB2tD1lhWtxOxWNFcRAqr4AJsFLeCHmN971MpxV3T1SmDbxFwWJwCfTEuw sb9LO9N+Cf6N9jyZ/lx3RLA= =2MFp -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Martin Spott wrote: Jon Stockill wrote: Martin Spott wrote: But only then - and who wants WinXP without being forced to !? ;-) On the other hand PowerArchiver for Windows easily handles .tar.gz or .tgz files, As does winzip AFAICR. but WinZip is commercial, isn't it !? Yes, but it's a very common bit of software. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Jon Stockill wrote: > Martin Spott wrote: >> But only then - and who wants WinXP without being forced to !? ;-) >> On the other hand PowerArchiver for Windows easily handles .tar.gz or >> .tgz files, > > As does winzip AFAICR. but WinZip is commercial, isn't it !? Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Christian Mayer wrote: BTW: of all Windows versions you only want to use 2000 or XP (= 2000.1). The rest is either unstable (95, 98, ME) or doesn't run modern software (NT) This doesn't alter the fact that there are still a lot of perfectly capable systems out there running 98SE - they shouldn't be overlooked. (Being someone who "knows about computers" results in being asked to fix them by friends & family) -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Martin Spott schrieb: > Christian Mayer wrote: > > >>Linux can easily unzip those and Windows users have the unzipper already >>comming with their OS (when it is WinXP...) > > > But only then - and who wants WinXP without being forced to !? ;-) > On the other hand PowerArchiver for Windows easily handles .tar.gz or > .tgz files, About any reasonable mainstream (de)compression tool for Windows can handle .tgz or .tar.gz as well as .zip Some can do .rar or .ace or ... But the point is that there's allways an extra program required. All versions before XP do allways need an extra program. So we can choose what we want. But with XP (which, by now, most of the Windows users use) you get an decompression tool included in the Windows explorer. And that tool can only handle .zip BTW: of all Windows versions you only want to use 2000 or XP (= 2000.1). The rest is either unstable (95, 98, ME) or doesn't run modern software (NT) CU, Christian -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFB2riKlhWtxOxWNFcRAg/eAJ9KUtVdM0jTRXLBxkmMra5xk6rWKQCgrhlr aBPFQfCwM8yHkjeNGVY70N8= =9ZnO -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Martin Spott wrote: Christian Mayer wrote: Linux can easily unzip those and Windows users have the unzipper already comming with their OS (when it is WinXP...) But only then - and who wants WinXP without being forced to !? ;-) On the other hand PowerArchiver for Windows easily handles .tar.gz or .tgz files, As does winzip AFAICR. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Christian Mayer wrote: > Linux can easily unzip those and Windows users have the unzipper already > comming with their OS (when it is WinXP...) But only then - and who wants WinXP without being forced to !? ;-) On the other hand PowerArchiver for Windows easily handles .tar.gz or .tgz files, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Tuesday 04 Jan 2005 11:17, Oliver C. wrote: > On Tuesday 04 January 2005 11:37, Christian Mayer wrote: > > Oliver C. schrieb: > > | Could you change the file format from *.tgz to *.tar.gz? > > | > > | I ask because *.tgz is used by Slackware as a package format (it's a > > > > tar.gz > > > > | file with a install script in it) and this is leading to confusion > > | when you have Slackware *.tgz files and *.tgz files that are no > > | Slackware packages on your harddrive. > > | > > | So file endings called *.tar.gz would be much better than *.tgz. > > > > And what about *.zip? > > > > Linux can easily unzip those and Windows users have the unzipper already > > comming with their OS (when it is WinXP...) > > Yes, but *.zip is not a free format. > > Using *.zip would be like using *.mp3 instead of *.ogg > > > 7zip or bzip2 would be acceptable, both are free like tar.gz. > > Best Regards, > Oliver C. Doesn't zip have a tendancy to do odd things with file permissions/ownership on occasion? (It might just be my back luck of course ;-) ) Dave Martin ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Oliver C. schrieb: | On Tuesday 04 January 2005 11:37, Christian Mayer wrote: | |>Oliver C. schrieb: |>| Could you change the file format from *.tgz to *.tar.gz? |>| |>| I ask because *.tgz is used by Slackware as a package format (it's a |> |>tar.gz |> |>| file with a install script in it) and this is leading to confusion |>| when you have Slackware *.tgz files and *.tgz files that are no Slackware |>| packages on your harddrive. |>| |>| So file endings called *.tar.gz would be much better than *.tgz. |> |>And what about *.zip? |> |>Linux can easily unzip those and Windows users have the unzipper already |>comming with their OS (when it is WinXP...) |> | | Yes, but *.zip is not a free format. Really? I thought at the beginning it was proprietary (sp?), but there are enough free implementations now. | Using *.zip would be like using *.mp3 instead of *.ogg The problem with mp3 is that you have to pay royalties if you want to distribute an encoder. Is there anything similar with zip? | 7zip or bzip2 would be acceptable, both are free like tar.gz. The advantage of zip is that you don't need an extra program to unpack it (if you've got WinXP or, probably, newer). All other formats don't have that advantage. But if zip is no option .tar.gz or .tgz are fine, as all usual unpackers for Windows support these (compared to 7zip; bzip2 might be supported a bit more) CU, Christian PS: Does anybody know how to tell Enigmail to keep the quotations started with an ">" and not to convert them to an "|"? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFB2oQzlhWtxOxWNFcRAkJmAJ9a+k2/G3zUDaFJzmTdnl6J6bzDXgCfYeEF LUHIBjH/h84t8YG2EUzXbr0= =Gwcp -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Tuesday 04 January 2005 11:37, Christian Mayer wrote: > Oliver C. schrieb: > | Could you change the file format from *.tgz to *.tar.gz? > | > | I ask because *.tgz is used by Slackware as a package format (it's a > > tar.gz > > | file with a install script in it) and this is leading to confusion > | when you have Slackware *.tgz files and *.tgz files that are no Slackware > | packages on your harddrive. > | > | So file endings called *.tar.gz would be much better than *.tgz. > > And what about *.zip? > > Linux can easily unzip those and Windows users have the unzipper already > comming with their OS (when it is WinXP...) > Yes, but *.zip is not a free format. Using *.zip would be like using *.mp3 instead of *.ogg 7zip or bzip2 would be acceptable, both are free like tar.gz. Best Regards, Oliver C. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Oliver C. schrieb: | | Could you change the file format from *.tgz to *.tar.gz? | | I ask because *.tgz is used by Slackware as a package format (it's a tar.gz | file with a install script in it) and this is leading to confusion | when you have Slackware *.tgz files and *.tgz files that are no Slackware | packages on your harddrive. | | So file endings called *.tar.gz would be much better than *.tgz. And what about *.zip? Linux can easily unzip those and Windows users have the unzipper already comming with their OS (when it is WinXP...) CU, Christian -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFB2nIHlhWtxOxWNFcRAqf3AJwJrDhrCaIN78Rs0J17glZCWLENUgCfQzPD W3Zg/opMBXj/T/SZfBEAklE= =lvo5 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Oliver C. wrote: On Monday 03 January 2005 22:23, Curtis L. Olson wrote: Here's a preview of something I'd like to have working in time for the 0.9.8 release. As we go forward it would be nice to have thumbnail images for each aircraft. I've also included the ability to read a version string out of the aircraft-set file, and where one doesn't exist, they script will just use the current date (that the archive is assembled) as the version. http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/aircraft.html Regards, Curt. Could you change the file format from *.tgz to *.tar.gz? I ask because *.tgz is used by Slackware as a package format (it's a tar.gz file with a install script in it) and this is leading to confusion when you have Slackware *.tgz files and *.tgz files that are no Slackware packages on your harddrive. So file endings called *.tar.gz would be much better than *.tgz. It's not really a problem unless they end up with names like: aircraftname-version-noarch-packageversion.tgz In which case it could be confusing. aircraftname-version.tgz *wouldn't* be a slackware package. -- Jon Stockill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Tuesday 04 January 2005 00:55, Curtis L. Olson wrote: > Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: > >On January 3, 2005 04:43 pm, Curtis L. Olson wrote: > >>Eventually, probably yes ... at least by maintaining a > >> version number in the aircraft-set.xml file and by > >> providing a small thumbnail image (probably with a > >> standardized name so I can build the web pages with > >> scripts.) > > > >Are you planning on replacing the word "Photo" with the > > thumbnail or are you planning on making "Photo" a link? > > I was planning inline photos, but this is my first stab at a > download page, I'm open for suggestions, although I don't have > infinite time to impliment them all. > > Curt. I think it would probably be better if the images were local/in-lined, as opposed to a link to an image somewhere on the web - if the linked url goes down for any reason it'll impact on the FG page. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Actually, I think *.tar.gz is more popular that *.tgz. And makes more sense than .tgz. But it's really a trivial thing. Anyway you go will work. On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:58:51 -0600, Curtis L. Olson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Oliver C. wrote: > > >Could you change the file format from *.tgz to *.tar.gz? > > > >I ask because *.tgz is used by Slackware as a package format (it's a tar.gz > >file with a install script in it) and this is leading to confusion > >when you have Slackware *.tgz files and *.tgz files that are no Slackware > >packages on your harddrive. > > > >So file endings called *.tar.gz would be much better than *.tgz. > > > > > > .tgz is a little bit better understood on the win/mac platforms than > .tar.gz, and if I remember my slackware, a slackware .tgz file is the > exact same format as a .tar.gz ... the reason slackware called their > packages .tgz is to facilitate downloading and managing them on windows > systems ... > > Regards, > > Curt. > > -- > Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt > HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ > FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org > Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d > > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org > http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel > 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d > -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Oliver C. wrote: Could you change the file format from *.tgz to *.tar.gz? I ask because *.tgz is used by Slackware as a package format (it's a tar.gz file with a install script in it) and this is leading to confusion when you have Slackware *.tgz files and *.tgz files that are no Slackware packages on your harddrive. So file endings called *.tar.gz would be much better than *.tgz. .tgz is a little bit better understood on the win/mac platforms than .tar.gz, and if I remember my slackware, a slackware .tgz file is the exact same format as a .tar.gz ... the reason slackware called their packages .tgz is to facilitate downloading and managing them on windows systems ... Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: On January 3, 2005 04:43 pm, Curtis L. Olson wrote: Eventually, probably yes ... at least by maintaining a version number in the aircraft-set.xml file and by providing a small thumbnail image (probably with a standardized name so I can build the web pages with scripts.) Are you planning on replacing the word "Photo" with the thumbnail or are you planning on making "Photo" a link? I was planning inline photos, but this is my first stab at a download page, I'm open for suggestions, although I don't have infinite time to impliment them all. Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On January 3, 2005 04:43 pm, Curtis L. Olson wrote: > Eventually, probably yes ... at least by maintaining a version number in > the aircraft-set.xml file and by providing a small thumbnail image > (probably with a standardized name so I can build the web pages with > scripts.) Are you planning on replacing the word "Photo" with the thumbnail or are you planning on making "Photo" a link? Ampere ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Monday 03 January 2005 22:23, Curtis L. Olson wrote: > Here's a preview of something I'd like to have working in time for the > 0.9.8 release. As we go forward it would be nice to have thumbnail > images for each aircraft. I've also included the ability to read a > version string out of the aircraft-set file, and where one doesn't > exist, they script will just use the current date (that the archive is > assembled) as the version. > > http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/aircraft.html > > Regards, > > Curt. Could you change the file format from *.tgz to *.tar.gz? I ask because *.tgz is used by Slackware as a package format (it's a tar.gz file with a install script in it) and this is leading to confusion when you have Slackware *.tgz files and *.tgz files that are no Slackware packages on your harddrive. So file endings called *.tar.gz would be much better than *.tgz. Best Regards, Oliver C. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
On Monday 03 January 2005 21:43, Curtis L. Olson wrote: > Vivian Meazza wrote: > >Curt wrote: > >>Here's a preview of something I'd like to have working in > >> time for the 0.9.8 release. As we go forward it would be > >> nice to have thumbnail images for each aircraft. > > > >Do you want aircraft designers to do anything about this? > > Eventually, probably yes ... at least by maintaining a version > number in the aircraft-set.xml file and by providing a small > thumbnail image (probably with a standardized name so I can > build the web pages with scripts.) Looks fine to me. Maintaining a version number shouldn't be a problem. A version numbering scheme might not be a bad idea - it would help new users if the version numbers they see are similar in format. I've started adding start-up splash images to the a/c I've done but these are really a bit too big for the download thumbnails. Do you think you would be able to extract these splash images from the archives and re-scale them for the thumbnail images as part of the scripts you have in mind? LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Vivian Meazza wrote: Curt wrote: Here's a preview of something I'd like to have working in time for the 0.9.8 release. As we go forward it would be nice to have thumbnail images for each aircraft. Do you want aircraft designers to do anything about this? Eventually, probably yes ... at least by maintaining a version number in the aircraft-set.xml file and by providing a small thumbnail image (probably with a standardized name so I can build the web pages with scripts.) -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] Individual aircraft downloads
Curt wrote: > Here's a preview of something I'd like to have working in time for the > 0.9.8 release. As we go forward it would be nice to have thumbnail > images for each aircraft. Do you want aircraft designers to do anything about this? Regards, Vivian ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
