Re: [Flightgear-devel] Ground in FlightGear

[Thomas Förster]

Am Sonntag 30 März 2008 schrieb BARANGER Emmanuel:
> Hi all,
>
> After some tries on the Paris scenery and with nels' help on jabber,
> here are a few screenshots showing how much a textured ground
> dramatically improves Flightgear rendering.
>
> http://helijah.free.fr/ground/JPG-Version/
>
> Well, for now the method is just eavy as we have to make use of
> materials.xml. But still, isn't this a convaincing result ?

While this might seem superior on first glance, I see many issues with that 
simple approach, some of them noticeable even in your screenshots:

* Using aerial photography on a worldwide scale means creating a second google 
earth, with all related demands as to storage space. Not to mention copyright 
issues/free data sources.

* Usually the pictures contain shadows that naturally don't align with the sim 
state most of the time. Even worse the shadow code of FG might create doubled 
shadows in opposite directions. 

* Any misplaced buildings spring to eye immediately as there is a ghost 
groundplan visible some distance away (see the Orly shots).

* All aerial photos that are not orthorectified contain distortions (depending 
on altitude and lateral distance of the shooting aircraft), that might be 
impossible to cover by a 3d building even if placed correctly. This is 
especially true for high rises and skyscrapers.

* In the densely populated areas of Paris note the mismatch between the 3d 
buildings and the streets. This is not specific to aerial photos but more 
pronounced, as more streets are directly visible.

* As it looks nice in still images at a certain altitude, I suppose much of 
the effect is lost in a live session, as depth perception is improved with 
motion. In Paris this degradation is probably covered by the hundreds of 3d 
buildings which aren't available elsewhere (yet).


That said, I don't think your approach is meaningless. Given that the project 
area is small and built up areas are covered with 3d buildings it provides a 
more detailed and more accurate view of the project area than the standard 
approach. Depending on the projects goals this might be what you want, as 
also Curt has shown in his synthetic view video. So having kind of a tutorial 
or howto seems to be a good idea, so that others might reproduce what you've 
done in Paris.

Thomas

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[Flightgear-devel] New models

[Jon Stockill]

Given the current enthusiasm for sea-going models I've just created:

Models/Maritime/Misc
Models/Maritime/Civilian
Models/Maritime/Military

They've been populated with a bunch of models converted from the Naval 
Postgrad School's SAVAGE archive. The models are currently untextured, 
although some of them do have materials set to give them some colour.

If anyone wants to improve on these, or has requests for other models 
they'd like to see converted (some are better than others, and the 
conversion script is currently only in the very early stages, so I can't 
promise I'll be able to convert any particular model) then you can find 
the archive here:

https://savage.nps.edu/Savage/

Jon

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery 1.0.0 coastline is not processed

[Ralf Gerlich]

Ralf Gerlich wrote:
> Ralf Gerlich wrote:
>> Currently there is no shapefile version of GSHHS 1.5, which was
>> available for 1.3, so we need to get some tool to import the custom
>> binary format of GSHHS into the database, including the handling of
>> shorelines crossing the dateline, etc (e.g. Eurasia continent definition).
>>
>> Yes, this is on my TODO-list, and no, it's not on top.
> 
> ...volunteers welcome ;-)

Not any more. I have implemented this tool on the weekend and the import
of GSHHS 1.6 into the database is running. The result will be closed
polygon layers.

Cheers,
Ralf

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Frankfurt (EDDF) scenery SVN now available

[Christian Schmitt]

Christian Schmitt wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> here is a short update:
> Today I went to EDDF to take some photos of as many buildings and things 
> as possible, to be able to better create textures. Some of the results 
> can already be seen in SVN. However, I have one problem: There is 
> reconstruction going on on gate c/d and they built a new tower-like 
> thing there. I also read there will be more A380 parkings. I was not 
> able to take a detailed shot of this, so if anybody is able to provide 
> me with some photos of that new construction, I'd be very greateful. 
> Other pictures are welcome, too :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Chris

I was lucky to find some pics of this new construction on the web. 
Together with a plan of EDDF i was able to more or less measure the 
sizes of the new Gate D and texture it. It is already in SVN.

Cheers,
Chris

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[Flightgear-devel] CVS - Frame Rates under Windows XP

[Vivian Meazza]

Hi
 
About 10 days ago I got fed up with low frame rates using OSG around KSFO,
so I went out and bought the best nVidia AGP card that I could find - 7600gs
with 512Mb of VRAM. I fitted it with great anticipation to my machine - P4
2.8Ghz/800Mhz FSB with 1.5 Gb of RAM running XP - and, precisely NOTHING. No
change in frame rate between the new card and the old - a FX6200 with 256Mb
VRAM - for FG-OSG-HEAD. On the other hand plib-HEAD flies. Here are some
comparative results:
 
Aircraft: Seahawk   
 OSG  PLIB
   KSFOGeneral  Ocean   KSFOGeneral
Ocean
every check box turned to off:
25  30  604580
117
with everything checked, traffic manager on:
   15   25  362550
80
as above with shadows and 3d clouds:
  1840
65
as above but with trees and precipitation:
   10   15 40 (but the rain turned itself off!)
 
Aircraft: c172p 
every check box turned to off:
  3340  60   4590
130
with everything checked, traffic manager on:
  2733  40   3050
75
as above with shadows and 3d clouds:
 3050
65
as above but with trees and precipitation:
  1525  30 
 
Aircraft: Buccaneer (particles)
as  above but with trees and precipitation:
   818  20 
 
In addition to the difference in frame rate, OSG also stutters, while plib
is commendably smooth. I've tried both executables generated here using
MSVC8, and Fred's pre-cooked binaries. So far as I can see the results are
identical. I've profiled both OSG and plib - for anyone interested, some of
the results are here:
 
ftp://abbeytheatre2.org.uk/fgfs/OSG/
 
While I am no expert in profiling code, the results seem to me to show that
we are getting stuck in the bowels of OSG somewhere, while plib is
well-ordered, with no particular cpu-hog, which is pretty much what the
above table indicates.
 
My principle concern is that there appears to be very little headroom for
future developments in OSG for shadows, or 3d clouds, or landing lights, on
what is a not-very-old and pretty capable machine. I would be grateful if
some Windows user(s) could confirm at least the shape of these comparative
results. I understand that Linux users get much better results than these.
We might be getting towards the point when Windows users are stuck with plib
(and that's not all bad) while Linux users get to play with all the new
goodies. We might be drifting away from our cross platform ethic.
 
 
Vivian
 
Luckily the new card wasn't terribly expensive otherwise I would be quite
p'd off
 
 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS - Frame Rates under Windows XP

[Heiko Schulz]

--- Vivian Meazza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:

> Hi
>  
> About 10 days ago I got fed up with low frame rates
> using OSG around KSFO,
> so I went out and bought the best nVidia AGP card
> that I could find - 7600gs
> with 512Mb of VRAM. I fitted it with great
> anticipation to my machine - P4
> 2.8Ghz/800Mhz FSB with 1.5 Gb of RAM running XP -
> and, precisely NOTHING. No
> change in frame rate between the new card and the
> old - a FX6200 with 256Mb
> VRAM - for FG-OSG-HEAD. On the other hand plib-HEAD
> flies. Here are some
> comparative results:
>  
> Aircraft: Seahawk   
>  OSG
>  PLIB
>KSFOGeneral  Ocean  
> KSFOGeneral
> Ocean
> every check box turned to off:
> 25  30  60  
>  4580
> 117
> with everything checked, traffic manager on:
>15   25  36  
>  2550
> 80
> as above with shadows and 3d clouds:
> 
>  1840
> 65
> as above but with trees and precipitation:
>10   15 40 (but the rain
> turned itself off!)
>  
> Aircraft: c172p 
> every check box turned to off:
>   3340  60  
> 4590
> 130
> with everything checked, traffic manager on:
>   2733  40  
> 3050
> 75
> as above with shadows and 3d clouds:
> 
> 3050
> 65
> as above but with trees and precipitation:
>   1525  30 
>  
> Aircraft: Buccaneer (particles)
> as  above but with trees and precipitation:
>818  20 
>  
> In addition to the difference in frame rate, OSG
> also stutters, while plib
> is commendably smooth. I've tried both executables
> generated here using
> MSVC8, and Fred's pre-cooked binaries. So far as I
> can see the results are
> identical. I've profiled both OSG and plib - for
> anyone interested, some of
> the results are here:
>  
> ftp://abbeytheatre2.org.uk/fgfs/OSG/
>  
> While I am no expert in profiling code, the results
> seem to me to show that
> we are getting stuck in the bowels of OSG somewhere,
> while plib is
> well-ordered, with no particular cpu-hog, which is
> pretty much what the
> above table indicates.
>  
> My principle concern is that there appears to be
> very little headroom for
> future developments in OSG for shadows, or 3d
> clouds, or landing lights, on
> what is a not-very-old and pretty capable machine. I
> would be grateful if
> some Windows user(s) could confirm at least the
> shape of these comparative
> results. I understand that Linux users get much
> better results than these.
> We might be getting towards the point when Windows
> users are stuck with plib
> (and that's not all bad) while Linux users get to
> play with all the new
> goodies. We might be drifting away from our cross
> platform ethic.
>  
>  
> Vivian
>  
> Luckily the new card wasn't terribly expensive
> otherwise I would be quite
> p'd off
>  
Hi,

With the recent built by Fred I found the old stutters
again- but I could sovle this for me.

But I can't see any of those problems you have- I can
run FGFS with all features we have - plus heavy
self-written interactive traffic and mp. And the best-
I can run other programs beside too without any
problems (blender as an graphic example!)

You should know, that you have to set some things on
your pc, Nvidea and FGFS:

- switch Vsync in the Nvidea settings
- use the frame-rate-throttle!

I use a CoreDuo 2,6 Ghz and a Gainward 8800GT - but
there were people in the german forum and the official
forum (kid's playground) having no problems with the
recent OSG-built on lower pc. 
And the difference between a 8800 and 7600 isn't
really far.

Even on my old PC with a FX5200 OSG run very pretty at
least. 
It is true that OSG is slower than plib- but the
graphic is much better (exxept the 3D-clouds and the
missing shadows)- please not another discussion about
OSG vs Plib!

Regards
HHS

still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html
But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS - Frame Rates under Windows XP

[Vivian Meazza]

Heiko Schulz wrote

> Sent: 31 March 2008 20:45
> To: FlightGear developers discussions
> Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS - Frame Rates under Windows XP
> 
> 
> 

Vivian Meazza  schrieb:

> 
> > Hi
> >  
> > About 10 days ago I got fed up with low frame rates
> > using OSG around KSFO,
> > so I went out and bought the best nVidia AGP card
> > that I could find - 7600gs
> > with 512Mb of VRAM. I fitted it with great
> > anticipation to my machine - P4
> > 2.8Ghz/800Mhz FSB with 1.5 Gb of RAM running XP -
> > and, precisely NOTHING. No
> > change in frame rate between the new card and the
> > old - a FX6200 with 256Mb
> > VRAM - for FG-OSG-HEAD. On the other hand plib-HEAD
> > flies. Here are some
> > comparative results:
> >  
> > Aircraft: Seahawk   
> >  OSG
> >  PLIB
> >KSFOGeneral  Ocean  
> > KSFOGeneral
> > Ocean
> > every check box turned to off:
> > 25  30  60  
> >  4580
> > 117
> > with everything checked, traffic manager on:
> >15   25  36  
> >  2550
> > 80
> > as above with shadows and 3d clouds:
> > 
> >  1840
> > 65
> > as above but with trees and precipitation:
> >10   15 40 (but the rain
> > turned itself off!)
> >  
> > Aircraft: c172p
> > every check box turned to off:
> >   3340  60  
> > 4590
> > 130
> > with everything checked, traffic manager on:
> >   2733  40  
> > 3050
> > 75
> > as above with shadows and 3d clouds:
> > 
> > 3050
> > 65
> > as above but with trees and precipitation:
> >   1525  30 
> >  
> > Aircraft: Buccaneer (particles)
> > as  above but with trees and precipitation:
> >818  20 
> >  
> > In addition to the difference in frame rate, OSG
> > also stutters, while plib
> > is commendably smooth. I've tried both executables
> > generated here using
> > MSVC8, and Fred's pre-cooked binaries. So far as I
> > can see the results are
> > identical. I've profiled both OSG and plib - for
> > anyone interested, some of
> > the results are here:
> >  
> > ftp://abbeytheatre2.org.uk/fgfs/OSG/
> >  
> > While I am no expert in profiling code, the results
> > seem to me to show that
> > we are getting stuck in the bowels of OSG somewhere,
> > while plib is
> > well-ordered, with no particular cpu-hog, which is
> > pretty much what the
> > above table indicates.
> >  
> > My principle concern is that there appears to be
> > very little headroom for
> > future developments in OSG for shadows, or 3d
> > clouds, or landing lights, on
> > what is a not-very-old and pretty capable machine. I
> > would be grateful if
> > some Windows user(s) could confirm at least the
> > shape of these comparative
> > results. I understand that Linux users get much
> > better results than these.
> > We might be getting towards the point when Windows
> > users are stuck with plib
> > (and that's not all bad) while Linux users get to
> > play with all the new
> > goodies. We might be drifting away from our cross
> > platform ethic.
> >  
> >  
> > Vivian
> >  
> > Luckily the new card wasn't terribly expensive
> > otherwise I would be quite
> > p'd off
> >  
> Hi,
> 
> With the recent built by Fred I found the old stutters
> again- but I could sovle this for me.
> 
> But I can't see any of those problems you have- I can
> run FGFS with all features we have - plus heavy
> self-written interactive traffic and mp. And the best-
> I can run other programs beside too without any
> problems (blender as an graphic example!)
> 
> You should know, that you have to set some things on
> your pc, Nvidea and FGFS:
> 
> - switch Vsync in the Nvidea settings
> - use the frame-rate-throttle!
> 
> I use a CoreDuo 2,6 Ghz and a Gainward 8800GT - but
> there were people in the german forum and the official
> forum (kid's playground) having no problems with the
> recent OSG-built on lower pc. 
> And the difference between a 8800 and 7600 isn't
> really far.
> 
> Even on my old PC with a FX5200 OSG run very pretty at
> least. 
> It is true that OSG is slower than plib- but the
> graphic is much better (exxept the 3D-clouds and the
> missing shadows)- please not another discussion about
> OSG vs Plib!
> 

CoreDuo 2,6 Ghz and a Gainward 8800GT. Not surprised it runs well!!! In
particular I think the CoreDuo does threading better than the P4. In case
you haven't noticed, the 7600gs is coping easily with the output from FG-OSG
- that's why the frame rates didn't increase. 

And what would Vsync do? The frame rate never gets anywhere near the point
at which it might operate. I've tried frame-rate-throttle

Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS - Frame Rates under Windows XP

[gerard robin]

On lun 31 mars 2008, Vivian Meazza wrote:

SNIP
> >
> > Even on my old PC with a FX5200 OSG run very pretty at
> > least.
> > It is true that OSG is slower than plib- but the
> > graphic is much better (exxept the 3D-clouds and the
> > missing shadows)- please not another discussion about
> > OSG vs Plib!
>
> CoreDuo 2,6 Ghz and a Gainward 8800GT. Not surprised it runs well!!! In
> particular I think the CoreDuo does threading better than the P4. In case
> you haven't noticed, the 7600gs is coping easily with the output from
> FG-OSG - that's why the frame rates didn't increase.
>
> And what would Vsync do? The frame rate never gets anywhere near the point
> at which it might operate. I've tried frame-rate-throttle - it just makes
> it worse. The graphics are absolutely no different here between OSG or plib
> that I can see, and why should they be?
>
> Could we have some _real_ numbers to compare instead of hearsay.
>
> This is not a OSG versus plib discussion - it's a why OSG is so poor on XP
> discussion
>
> Vivian
>
>
>

Hello, Vivian

You are right  :)

AND, with Linux and the same Graphics Card 7800 GS   512 MB, i can notice the 
same decrease of performance from FG-PLIB  to FG-OSG ,  
I ever had   about 20% less performance   with OSG.

I am running FG on  AMD ATHLON 3200 (32 bit) with AGP  mothercard.

May be OSG is more accurate with modern (recent) CPU. (i must test it).


Cheers


-- 
Gérard
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/GRTux/


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS - Frame Rates under Windows XP

[Heiko Schulz]

> 
> AND, with Linux and the same Graphics Card 7800 GS  
> 512 MB, i can notice the 
> same decrease of performance from FG-PLIB  to FG-OSG
> ,  
> I ever had   about 20% less performance   with OSG.
> 
> I am running FG on  AMD ATHLON 3200 (32 bit) with
> AGP  mothercard.
> 
> May be OSG is more accurate with modern (recent)
> CPU. (i must test it).
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> -- 
I notice a difference between OSG and Plib too- but
this is known!
But we can discuss and find out, how to make it
faster- time for Tim to answer!

still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS - Frame Rates under Windows XP

[Heiko Schulz]

> CoreDuo 2,6 Ghz and a Gainward 8800GT. Not surprised
> it runs well!!! 

If you read carefully, I said that even on my old pc
there wasn't any trouble!

>In particular I think the CoreDuo does threading
better
> than the P4. In case
> you haven't noticed, the 7600gs is coping easily
> with the output from FG-OSG
> - that's why the frame rates didn't increase. 
> 
> And what would Vsync do? The frame rate never gets
> anywhere near the point
> at which it might operate.

Really? 
I don't believe that if I look at your PC - it is
better than my old one 
 
> I've tried
> frame-rate-throttle - it just makes it
> worse. The graphics are absolutely no different here
> between OSG or plib
> that I can see, and why should they be? 

You are the first and only one yet having problems
with that- the kids in our kids corner havn't this
problem yet.

> Could we have some _real_ numbers to compare instead
> of hearsay.
> 
> This is not a OSG versus plib discussion - it's a
> why OSG is so poor on XP
> discussion
> 
It isn't poor on XP-
I had framerates about 25-37 on my old 2.8HG single
core and Nvidea FX5200 - with the tree shader I had
about 17-25fps- absolut usuable.
(KSFO, 28R, Noon, 1024x768, all boxes are checked)
Note: the FX5200 is the lowest card.

And: Windows XP needs a lot of perfomance - linux not!
And that's the fact why a lot of things are running
faster on Linux systems!

But we can always talk about how to make FGFS faster!

 

I think you have to check your pc first- 

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[Flightgear-devel] performace tuning for FG (was: Frame Rates under Windows XP)

[Mike Schuh]

On Tue, 1 Apr 2008, Heiko Schulz wrote:

>But we can always talk about how to make FGFS faster!
>
>I think you have to check your pc first-

Is there any tool/application in the FlightGear Air Wing (or even in the
nascent Marine Division) that would help a user adjust operating system
parameters to improve FG performance?  This tool could inventory a system
and make suggestions - install more memory, change *this* setting on the
graphics card, disable swapping, whatever (I'm making these up).

--
Mike Schuh - Seattle, Washington USA
http://www.farmdale.com

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[Flightgear-devel] FlightGear Maritime // Was: Ship 3d models

[Georg Vollnhals]

Hi Ron, Detlef and Jon,

your contributions are very valuable from the point of view of someone
creating coastal scenery.
Therefore I have to thank all of you.

@Ron:
Thank you for your permission to reuse the O.E. Sette ship. Although
Detlef just presented a SAR ship which I was thinking of, the O.E. Sette
is  a bigger shipclass and therefore interesting, too.

@Detlef:
Very nice SAR ship, some sort of DGzRS class. Not easy to land on the
platform, a real task. The BO105 is best choice for that :-)
All the other features will be tested next weekend.

@Jon:
I autoplaced your new Maritime models somewhere near the coast and had a
short look at them. Very, very nice collection. There are a lot of
models which are usable for FG only with some paint applied, no
texturing necessary.
Due to the early morning hour I will stop here and come back with some
more remarks tomorrow.

Georg EDDW


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS - Frame Rates under Windows XP

[Csaba Halász]

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 8:43 PM, Vivian Meazza
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I've tried both executables generated here using
> MSVC8, and Fred's pre-cooked binaries. So far as I can see the results are
> identical.

Here is a mingw32 build made with gcc 4.3.0 if you want to give it a try:
http://www.youshare.com/view.php?file=fg-mingw.zip

I can only say it starts and the menu works (tested using a virtual
machine through remote desktop :)
No warranties, might have left out a dozen files from the archive...

-- 
Csaba/Jester

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[Flightgear-devel] Keyboard Flight Controls Inop when using the autopilot as a flight-director

[Ron Jensen]

It was pointed out to me on IRC that the B1900d cannot be flown with the
keyboard.

Some investigation on my part shows:
- Keyboard.xml calls controls.incElevator()
- incElevator only allows the elevators to move
if /autopilot/locks/altitude  is zero.
- The b1900d uses the autopilot in passive (flightdirector) mode, thus
setting /autopilot/locks/altitude to "pitch-hold"
- similar problem exists for the ailerons and throttle.


It looks like the checks needs to look for /autopilot/locks/passive-mode
and free the controls if its true.

Looking for someone to suggest some good code :)

Ron







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[Flightgear-devel] Malolo 2 Landing (movie)

[Curtis Olson]

Hey,

Just a quick update ... here's a video of our Malolo 2 landing in the ocean
... 2 good flights today ... 45 minutes each.  We are spotting lots of
debris fragments and smaller chunks but we haven't hit the big jackpot yet.

http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/PhotoAlbums/OscarSette2008/Malolo%202%20landing.wmv

Sent from W154:00 N35:27 heading north right now.  Keeping busy ... no time
to get bored out here ...

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Keyboard Flight Controls Inop when using the autopilot as a flight-director

[Syd]

Ron Jensen wrote:
> It was pointed out to me on IRC that the B1900d cannot be flown with the
> keyboard.
>
> Some investigation on my part shows:
> - Keyboard.xml calls controls.incElevator()
> - incElevator only allows the elevators to move
> if /autopilot/locks/altitude  is zero.
> - The b1900d uses the autopilot in passive (flightdirector) mode, thus
> setting /autopilot/locks/altitude to "pitch-hold"
> - similar problem exists for the ailerons and throttle.
>
>
> It looks like the checks needs to look for /autopilot/locks/passive-mode
> and free the controls if its true.
>
> Looking for someone to suggest some good code :)
>
> Ron
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -
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>   
Thanks for pointing that out , I added a check for passive mode , and it 
seems to work now .There may be a better way to do it , this seemed to 
be the most obvious fix.
Cheers,
Syd

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] CVS - Frame Rates under Windows XP

[Frederic Bouvier]

Selon Vivian Meazza :

> CoreDuo 2,6 Ghz and a Gainward 8800GT. Not surprised it runs well!!! In
> particular I think the CoreDuo does threading better than the P4. In case
> you haven't noticed, the 7600gs is coping easily with the output from FG-OSG
> - that's why the frame rates didn't increase.
>
[...]
>
> Could we have some _real_ numbers to compare instead of hearsay.
>
> This is not a OSG versus plib discussion - it's a why OSG is so poor on XP
> discussion

I have a Core2 Duo 2.66 ( E6600 ) and a 7600GT. I always saw the greatest fps
increase after upgrading CPU and was disappointed by several GPU-only upgrade.

All I can tell is that with the Seahawk, at KSFO, I have 75hz steady ( with
vsync  on ) if I wait for 2 minutes. In the meantime, fps vary greatly from 40
to 75, during the threaded model loading process. And this is done with a 50%
CPU usage.

-Fred

-- 
Frédéric Bouvier
http://my.fotolia.com/frfoto/  Photo gallery - album photo
http://fgsd.sourceforge.net/   FlightGear Scenery Designer

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