[Flightgear-devel] FYI: Logo & Banner Challenge 2011 (FlightGear 2.6)

[David Van Mosselbeen]

Hi all,
Didn't saw this info coming up here. If so, sorry for the reminder :P

See: http://flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=14597

Kind regards,
David (itchi)

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trying to get more performance out of the 3Dclouds!

[Mathias Fröhlich]

Stuart,

On Monday, December 12, 2011 14:38:37 Vivian Meazza wrote:
> IIRC clouds were moved into bin 10 to improve appearance vis-à-vis
> particles. If we put clouds back into bin 9 and particles remain in 10 all
> the cooling towers, chimney efflux, aircraft contrails, exhausts etc. are
> drawn after the clouds i.e, in front. Rather looks as if we can have
> realism or framerate but not both.

Hmm, If I change the renderbin to 9 and instantiate a non sorted one, I am 
still draw limited here.
Also If I look at the application runtime profile I see functions dominating 
that happen during draw in the driver. There is no sorting function high in 
profiles.
May be OpenGL drivers that draw faster are depth sorting limited. But being 
draw limited this is what I can see here.

But, the question is how many cloud drawables do we have? The render Bin 
sorting bottleneck - if we run into this - is O(log(n)*n) with the n= number 
depth sorted drawables. Which means we need to have a huge amount of cloud 
drawables that this effect dominates.

Ok, looking into the Cloud drawable implementation, I believe that your almost 
first response is probably the easiest. Just without point sprites, just 
improoving what is currently done:
Try to put that multiple draws into a single draw using array objects.
Make sure that you still get a 'fast drawable'. YOu can verify this by asking 
the geometry if osg::Geometry::areFastPathsUsed() returns true. That is 
mostly: do not use any index arrays. The only indices which may be worthwhile 
are the indexed primitives sets.
Sorting inside the drawable is then done by either redoing the arrays or 
probably better by using an indexed primitive set and reordering the indices.

Greetings

Mathias

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trying to get more performance out of the 3D clouds!

[Mathias Fröhlich]

Hi,

On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 15:31:43 Csaba Halász wrote:
> 2011/12/12 Mathias Fröhlich :
> > As an answer to the previous mail, point sprites may help here too. You
> > will get the bilboard effect for free.
> > 
> > We have a queriable limit in the maximum supported point size which
> > nobody guarantees to be really high. But in reality point sprites can
> > get up to render buffer size for almost any GPU I know. The open source
> > radeon driver does glClear by drawing a screen sized point sprite...
> 
> When using the binary fglrx driver there are known problems with point
> sprites (not sure if anybody ever figured out the real cause) so if we
> switch to point sprites we should be careful to keep the current
> method as an alternative for the benefit of fglrx users.

Well, that's the runway lighting problems?

The reason is well known to me. We do triangles in point mode using back face 
culling to get the directional lights. Enabling point sprites in this mode is 
something fglrx does not like since some time. The open source driver can go 
well with this without any fallbacks. This one has other prolems, so just 
suggesting the oss drivers is not yet a real option.

I dont think that this kind of problems also apply to a possible cloud 
implementation. What you would do for clouds is much closer to the particles 
in osg. And these also work for fglrx.

Mathias

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[Flightgear-devel] FYI: New airport & nav-aid data available for X-Plane (2011.13) (fwd)

[Gene Buckle]

Robin has updated apt.dat and nav.dat...

-- Forwarded message --
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 13:38:01 -0800
From: Robin Peel 
Reply-To: x-plane-t...@yahoogroups.com
To: 'X-Plane Technical Group' ,
 'X-Plane News Group' , xp...@yahoogroupes.fr
Cc: 'austin meyer' , i...@x-plane.com,
 'Ben Supnik' 
Subject: [x-plane-tech] New airport & nav-aid data available for X-Plane
 (2011.13)

New data is now available for X-Plane.  This is data cycle 2011.13 valid
from 15-Dec-2011 to 12-Jan-2012.   This data is for X-Plane 9 and for
X-Plane 10.



This update includes many minor updates, including four new airports in
China, and many new airports in the South Pacific and Antarctica.  Please
note that terrain for extreme latitudes (eg. Antarctica) is not included
with X-Plane 9 or X-Plane 10.  For X-Plane 9 you may download the terrain
from http://www.xpsrtm.com/ (but these old-format data files will not work
with X-Plane 10).



These files will work under Windows, Mac OS or Linux.  If you wait until the
next incremental release of X-Plane 10, then this data will be installed
automatically if you use the "X-Plane Updater" -  this avoids the need to
download my files and install the files into the correct folders - this
method is highly recommended!

As always, this new data for X-Plane 9 and X-Plane 10 is available from my
website at:

http://data.x-plane.com 



Please join me in thanking those who keep contributing to the X-Plane
database. Helpful feedback is always appreciated.



-  Robin



Robin Peel

Seattle, Washington, USA



Custodian of the X-Plane master database of airports and nav-aids



ro...@xsquawkbox.net

Visit the X-Plane airport & navigation data home page at
http://data.x-plane.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Angles

[Frederic Bouvier]

Hi Jakub,

- Mail original -
> De: "jakubzavrel" 
> 
> Hi,
> I want to use 3D stereoscopic view. I have head mounted display from
> Sensics, that means separetes displays for both eyes. I want to use
> vertical split, it works great, but I need specific angles of view
> not just distance between eyes.
> 
> My idea:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/72023279@N07/6506121293/
> 
> 
> Is it possible?

You should be able to customize your view using the concepts exposed here :
https://gitorious.org/fg/flightgear/blobs/next/docs-mini/README.multiscreen

You can setup your views and your projections using a bit of XML magic

Regards,
-Fred

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] OT: git question

[Torsten Dreyer]

Certainly - git _is_ easy! (well, sometimes...)

Torsten
Am 13.12.2011 20:53, schrieb Curtis Olson:
Thanks to all who responded!  Turned out to be a lot easier than I was 
expecting. :-)


On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Anders Gidenstam 
mailto:anders-...@gidenstam.org>> wrote:


On Tue, 13 Dec 2011, Curtis Olson wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I have a quick question for the git experts among us.  I've done
some
> googling, but I must not have my search query phrased exactly
right, or
> maybe I don't quite know the right git terminology for what I
want to do.
> Hopefully it's simple enough.
>
> I have a local project here that uses git and has a single
master branch.
>
> I had a wild and crazy idea that I wanted to explore, but knew
it would
> involve a lot of code refactoring and rearchitecting -- I didn't
want to
> mess up my good working tree -- especially if the idea didn't
work out.  So
> I created a branch:
>
> git checkout -b newidea
>
> I then pushed forward with the new idea inside this branch, made
several
> rounds of changes and many commits to this new branch.  Now I
really like
> my new idea and I want all this work moved back into my master
branch.
>
> What's the best way do to this?
>
> Could I rename the master branch to be "pre-newidea" or whatever
I want to
> call it, and then rename my "newidea" branch to "master"?  Or is
that bad
> git practice?

If your newidea branch is nice and tidy and a straight continuation of
your current master branch (i.e. they have not diverged) you can just
merge the newidea branch into master (if they have not diverged it
will
just be a fast-forward of the master branch).

You can create a new branch to keep track of your old master point
first
if you like:

git branch old-master master

git branch -h  or --help will show many useful options to git branch
e.g. for creating, renaming and deleting branches.

As long as you don't rewrite the history you can always create a new
branch starting at any old commit so there is no particular need to
create such branches before you need them (except maybe to help
remembering where that point was).

If the branches have diverged I would consider cherry-pick over the
commits from the newidea branch into master (if they are not very
many)
and perhaps also tidy them up with using interactive rebasing before
publishing the new master state. This is particularily useful if
master is
a public branch that receives commits from other developers - it
avoids
the rather ugly multiple levels of merges we see in e.g. fgdata.
(See also git rebase).

gitk --all is a very useful tool to see where your different
branches are
in the history and how they relate to each other.

> Would it be better to merge all the change in my "newidea"
branch back into
> master?  If so, how would I go about doing that?

While on the master branch:

git merge newidea


Cheers,

Anders
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] OT: git question

[Curtis Olson]

Thanks to all who responded!  Turned out to be a lot easier than I was
expecting. :-)

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Anders Gidenstam
wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011, Curtis Olson wrote:
>
> > Hey all,
> >
> > I have a quick question for the git experts among us.  I've done some
> > googling, but I must not have my search query phrased exactly right, or
> > maybe I don't quite know the right git terminology for what I want to do.
> > Hopefully it's simple enough.
> >
> > I have a local project here that uses git and has a single master branch.
> >
> > I had a wild and crazy idea that I wanted to explore, but knew it would
> > involve a lot of code refactoring and rearchitecting -- I didn't want to
> > mess up my good working tree -- especially if the idea didn't work out.
>  So
> > I created a branch:
> >
> > git checkout -b newidea
> >
> > I then pushed forward with the new idea inside this branch, made several
> > rounds of changes and many commits to this new branch.  Now I really like
> > my new idea and I want all this work moved back into my master branch.
> >
> > What's the best way do to this?
> >
> > Could I rename the master branch to be "pre-newidea" or whatever I want
> to
> > call it, and then rename my "newidea" branch to "master"?  Or is that bad
> > git practice?
>
> If your newidea branch is nice and tidy and a straight continuation of
> your current master branch (i.e. they have not diverged) you can just
> merge the newidea branch into master (if they have not diverged it will
> just be a fast-forward of the master branch).
>
> You can create a new branch to keep track of your old master point first
> if you like:
>
> git branch old-master master
>
> git branch -h  or --help will show many useful options to git branch
> e.g. for creating, renaming and deleting branches.
>
> As long as you don't rewrite the history you can always create a new
> branch starting at any old commit so there is no particular need to
> create such branches before you need them (except maybe to help
> remembering where that point was).
>
> If the branches have diverged I would consider cherry-pick over the
> commits from the newidea branch into master (if they are not very many)
> and perhaps also tidy them up with using interactive rebasing before
> publishing the new master state. This is particularily useful if master is
> a public branch that receives commits from other developers - it avoids
> the rather ugly multiple levels of merges we see in e.g. fgdata.
> (See also git rebase).
>
> gitk --all is a very useful tool to see where your different branches are
> in the history and how they relate to each other.
>
> > Would it be better to merge all the change in my "newidea" branch back
> into
> > master?  If so, how would I go about doing that?
>
> While on the master branch:
>
> git merge newidea
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Anders
> --
> ---
> Anders Gidenstam
> WWW: http://gitorious.org/anders-hangar
>  http://www.gidenstam.org/FlightGear/
>
>
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> improve service delivery. Take 5 minutes to use this Systems Optimization
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] OT: git question

[Anders Gidenstam]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011, Curtis Olson wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I have a quick question for the git experts among us.  I've done some
> googling, but I must not have my search query phrased exactly right, or
> maybe I don't quite know the right git terminology for what I want to do.
> Hopefully it's simple enough.
>
> I have a local project here that uses git and has a single master branch.
>
> I had a wild and crazy idea that I wanted to explore, but knew it would
> involve a lot of code refactoring and rearchitecting -- I didn't want to
> mess up my good working tree -- especially if the idea didn't work out.  So
> I created a branch:
>
> git checkout -b newidea
>
> I then pushed forward with the new idea inside this branch, made several
> rounds of changes and many commits to this new branch.  Now I really like
> my new idea and I want all this work moved back into my master branch.
>
> What's the best way do to this?
>
> Could I rename the master branch to be "pre-newidea" or whatever I want to
> call it, and then rename my "newidea" branch to "master"?  Or is that bad
> git practice?

If your newidea branch is nice and tidy and a straight continuation of 
your current master branch (i.e. they have not diverged) you can just 
merge the newidea branch into master (if they have not diverged it will 
just be a fast-forward of the master branch).

You can create a new branch to keep track of your old master point first 
if you like:

git branch old-master master

git branch -h  or --help will show many useful options to git branch 
e.g. for creating, renaming and deleting branches.

As long as you don't rewrite the history you can always create a new 
branch starting at any old commit so there is no particular need to 
create such branches before you need them (except maybe to help 
remembering where that point was).

If the branches have diverged I would consider cherry-pick over the 
commits from the newidea branch into master (if they are not very many) 
and perhaps also tidy them up with using interactive rebasing before 
publishing the new master state. This is particularily useful if master is 
a public branch that receives commits from other developers - it avoids 
the rather ugly multiple levels of merges we see in e.g. fgdata.
(See also git rebase).

gitk --all is a very useful tool to see where your different branches are 
in the history and how they relate to each other.

> Would it be better to merge all the change in my "newidea" branch back into
> master?  If so, how would I go about doing that?

While on the master branch:

git merge newidea


Cheers,

Anders
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] OT: git question

[Torsten Dreyer]

Am 13.12.2011 20:19, schrieb Curtis Olson:

Hey all,

I have a quick question for the git experts among us.  I've done some 
googling, but I must not have my search query phrased exactly right, 
or maybe I don't quite know the right git terminology for what I want 
to do.  Hopefully it's simple enough.


I have a local project here that uses git and has a single master branch.

I had a wild and crazy idea that I wanted to explore, but knew it 
would involve a lot of code refactoring and rearchitecting -- I didn't 
want to mess up my good working tree -- especially if the idea didn't 
work out.  So I created a branch:


git checkout -b newidea

I then pushed forward with the new idea inside this branch, made 
several rounds of changes and many commits to this new branch.  Now I 
really like my new idea and I want all this work moved back into my 
master branch.


What's the best way do to this?

Could I rename the master branch to be "pre-newidea" or whatever I 
want to call it, and then rename my "newidea" branch to "master"?  Or 
is that bad git practice?

Yes to the second question ;-)


Would it be better to merge all the change in my "newidea" branch back 
into master?  If so, how would I go about doing that?

$ git checkout master
$ git merge newidea



Thanks!

Curt.
--
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http://www.flightgear.org - http://gallinazo.flightgear.org



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] OT: git question

[Stefan Seifert]

On Tuesday 13 December 2011 13:19:25 Curtis Olson wrote:

> I have a local project here that uses git and has a single master branch.
> 
> I had a wild and crazy idea that I wanted to explore, but knew it would
> involve a lot of code refactoring and rearchitecting -- I didn't want to
> mess up my good working tree -- especially if the idea didn't work out.  So
> I created a branch:
> 
> git checkout -b newidea
> 
> I then pushed forward with the new idea inside this branch, made several
> rounds of changes and many commits to this new branch.  Now I really like
> my new idea and I want all this work moved back into my master branch.
> 
> What's the best way do to this?

You want to merge your branch back into master. merge is the right word:
git checkout master
git merge newidea

done. If the merge creates conflicts, git will tell you so. To fix them, simply 
edit the files and add them to the index (git add fixed_file) and when you are 
done do a git commit. A merge usually creates a new commit anyway, since it's 
a new version of your source tree.
 
> Could I rename the master branch to be "pre-newidea" or whatever I want to
> call it, and then rename my "newidea" branch to "master"?  Or is that bad
> git practice?

Would be possible as well, but branching and merging are the basic tools in 
git and they are fast, simple and work quite well. And they create no 
confusion if someone else got your old master branch.

Stefan

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[Flightgear-devel] OT: git question

[Curtis Olson]

Hey all,

I have a quick question for the git experts among us.  I've done some
googling, but I must not have my search query phrased exactly right, or
maybe I don't quite know the right git terminology for what I want to do.
 Hopefully it's simple enough.

I have a local project here that uses git and has a single master branch.

I had a wild and crazy idea that I wanted to explore, but knew it would
involve a lot of code refactoring and rearchitecting -- I didn't want to
mess up my good working tree -- especially if the idea didn't work out.  So
I created a branch:

git checkout -b newidea

I then pushed forward with the new idea inside this branch, made several
rounds of changes and many commits to this new branch.  Now I really like
my new idea and I want all this work moved back into my master branch.

What's the best way do to this?

Could I rename the master branch to be "pre-newidea" or whatever I want to
call it, and then rename my "newidea" branch to "master"?  Or is that bad
git practice?

Would it be better to merge all the change in my "newidea" branch back into
master?  If so, how would I go about doing that?

Thanks!

Curt.
-- 
Curtis Olson:
http://www.atiak.com - http://aem.umn.edu/~uav/
http://www.flightgear.org - http://gallinazo.flightgear.org
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[Flightgear-devel] Angles

[jakubzavrel]

Hi,
I want to use 3D stereoscopic view. I have head mounted display from Sensics, 
that means separetes displays for both eyes. I want to use vertical split, it 
works great, but I need specific angles of view not just distance between eyes. 

My idea:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72023279@N07/6506121293/


Is it possible?

Thanks for answer


Jakub Zavrel 

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] flightgear merge request #14 and airportinfo()/navinfo()

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 19:53:07 +1100, Scott wrote in message 
<1323766387.24670.6.ca...@goat.planetscott.net>:

> Greetings all,
> 
>After a number of discussions on the forums and e.mails I've put a
> patch together that extends the nasal interfaces for airportinfo() and
> navinfo(). 

..these can be used to "open closed airports"???  8o)

> As the patch outlines these are backward compatible, they
> only look for optional extra parameters, otherwise existing nasal code
> works as before.


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  best case, worst case, and just in case.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trying to get more performance out of the 3D clouds!

[Csaba Halász]

2011/12/12 Mathias Fröhlich :
>
>
> As an answer to the previous mail, point sprites may help here too. You will
> get the bilboard effect for free.
>
> We have a queriable limit in the maximum supported point size which nobody
> guarantees to be really high. But in reality point sprites can get up to
> render buffer size for almost any GPU I know. The open source radeon driver
> does glClear by drawing a screen sized point sprite...

When using the binary fglrx driver there are known problems with point
sprites (not sure if anybody ever figured out the real cause) so if we
switch to point sprites we should be careful to keep the current
method as an alternative for the benefit of fglrx users.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] flightgear merge request #14 and airportinfo()/navinfo()

[Csaba Halász]

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Scott  wrote:
>
>   Could someone have a look at
>
> https://gitorious.org/fg/flightgear/merge_requests/14
>
>   and review.

>From a quick glance, you create a hash unnecessarily on line 744:
naRef reply = naNewHash(c);
It's either overwritten or discarded later.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Sound support broken by AI traffic

[Erik Hofman]

On Tue, 2011-12-13 at 11:12 +0100, Erik Hofman wrote:

> Please let me know if there are still problems.

I did already found one (a minor one): No need to start all single-shot
sounds again when getting in-range..

Erik


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Sound support broken by AI traffic

[Erik Hofman]

On Tue, 2011-12-13 at 10:53 +0100, Erik Hofman wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-12-13 at 09:17 +, Vivian Meazza wrote:
> 
> > As of this mornings Git with MSVC10 build and WinXP I'm getting this
> > continuously repeated: 
> > 
> > Sound manager: No more free sources available!
> 
> I'm working on it. It turned out testing with the UFO alone was not
> sufficient.

Ok I've pushed a different approach to setting a sample out of range to
SimgGear git. This way is better anyhow.
Please let me know if there are still problems.

Erik


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trying to get more performance out of the 3Dclouds!

[Vivian Meazza]

Thorsten wrote:

 
> > IIRC clouds were moved into bin 10 to improve appearance vis-à-vis
> > particles. If we put clouds back into bin 9 and particles remain in 10
> > all
> > the cooling towers, chimney efflux, aircraft contrails, exhausts etc.
> are
> > drawn after the clouds i.e, in front. Rather looks as if we can have
> > realism
> > or framerate but not both.
> 
> Are these assignments runtime-changeable?

Not that I can see at the moment - right now particles are hard-coded to go
into bin 10, and the others are shader based which can be changed relatively
easily - but not during runtime.

> If so, one could use a simple criteria to get it (roughly) right.
> 
> * particle effects associated with an aircraft are always drawn in front
> (they must be nearby to see them anyway)

Sort of true - but this will generate odd effects in tower views.
 
> * aircraft contrails are always treated as clouds (they are clouds)

Yes - true - but they are particle based so they will follow whatever
heuristic is appropriate for aircraft above. So they will almost never be
right. The persistent contrails are shader based, and can go into whichever
bin the clouds go, and will work fine, except they will not necessarily
match the particle based contrails. 

> * ground-based model effects are drawn in front if the current view is
> below some decision altitude, and they are drawn at back if the aircraft
> is above (with the decision altitude being the lowest cloud layer)

We make no distinction between types of particles - they're all the treated
the same atm and get bunged into bin 10.

> This set of rules should get so much right that the exceptions don't
> really matter.

So you can see why the decision was made to lump them all together into 10
and let God, sorry OSG, sort them out. And so it does by and large, making a
pretty good job of it, but it takes its time over it.

Catch 22 or what?

Vivian 



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Sound support broken by AI traffic

[Erik Hofman]

On Tue, 2011-12-13 at 09:17 +, Vivian Meazza wrote:

> As of this mornings Git with MSVC10 build and WinXP I'm getting this
> continuously repeated: 
> 
> Sound manager: No more free sources available!

I'm working on it. It turned out testing with the UFO alone was not
sufficient.

Erik


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Sound support broken by AI traffic

[Vivian Meazza]

Erik

 
> On Mon, 2011-12-12 at 20:22 +0100, ThorstenB wrote:
> > Hi Erik,
> >
> > Am 12.12.2011 13:31, schrieb Erik Hofman:
> > > I've implemented a mechanism to free OpenAL sources that are farther
> > > away than max-distance (3km for the current AI models). This might
> solve
> > > your problems, although it is not a one size fits all solution.
> >
> > I'm still getting many error messages at EHAM - but it's better now.
> > It's starting ok and I'm hearing AI sounds. Nice :)
> >
> > However, XML conditions for AI aircraft have no effect. All AI sound
> > samples are played unconditionally as soon as the aircraft is in range.
> 
> That's the problem of the AIModel code that models hardly any properties
> suitable for sound playback. It should be extended and the config file
> should be updated to match the changes.
> 
> > "play once" AI sound samples are also played continuously. I think it's
> > caused by an issue with your last update. Attached patch restores the
> > effect of the XML conditions for me - and also "play once" samples work
> > as expected. Not sure if that's the correct way to fix it though...
> 
> Not entirely no.. it looks like the looping setting gets lost in the
> process, I'll take a look at it.
> 

As of this mornings Git with MSVC10 build and WinXP I'm getting this
continuously repeated: 

Sound manager: No more free sources available!

At KHAV with the traffic manager disabled. Frame rate is reduced to 4-5 and
the system is unusable.

Vivian 



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[Flightgear-devel] flightgear merge request #14 and airportinfo()/navinfo()

[Scott]

Greetings all,

   After a number of discussions on the forums and e.mails I've put a
patch together that extends the nasal interfaces for airportinfo() and
navinfo(). As the patch outlines these are backward compatible, they
only look for optional extra parameters, otherwise existing nasal code
works as before.

   Could someone have a look at 

https://gitorious.org/fg/flightgear/merge_requests/14

   and review.  While it doesn't support all use cases that I had wanted
(because some parts of the API for the nav info I couldn't work out) it
does help extend those two functions, primarily to help FMS/FMC glass
cockpit builders.



   Many thanks
  S.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Sound support broken by AI traffic

[Erik Hofman]

On Mon, 2011-12-12 at 22:58 +0100, ThorstenB wrote:
> Btw, is there a way to influence the audio level of AI sounds? Would be 
> nice if sounds could be muffled in inside views (i.e. cockpit/inside 
> view), while they should have normal/higher volume in outside views (and 
> there should be no difference for aircraft without a canopy of course). 
> Sorry, if that's another feature request ;-).

Yes, just like all the other sound groups the sound groups of AI Models
has it's own volume property (and enable/disable property).

Erik


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Trying to get more performance out of the 3Dclouds!

[thorsten . i . renk]

> IIRC clouds were moved into bin 10 to improve appearance vis-à-vis
> particles. If we put clouds back into bin 9 and particles remain in 10
> all
> the cooling towers, chimney efflux, aircraft contrails, exhausts etc. are
> drawn after the clouds i.e, in front. Rather looks as if we can have
> realism
> or framerate but not both.

Are these assignments runtime-changeable?

If so, one could use a simple criteria to get it (roughly) right.

* particle effects associated with an aircraft are always drawn in front
(they must be nearby to see them anyway)

* aircraft contrails are always treated as clouds (they are clouds)

* ground-based model effects are drawn in front if the current view is
below some decision altitude, and they are drawn at back if the aircraft
is above (with the decision altitude being the lowest cloud layer)

This set of rules should get so much right that the exceptions don't
really matter.

Cheers,

* Thorsten


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