Re: [Flightgear-devel] MP notes on breaking compatibility with previous versions of aircrafts....
Oh, I'm well aware of that (former development professional, not just 3d games. 10 years of it), and it's not a big issue indeed, but nevertheless a cosmetic issue that shouldn't be neglected when possible. So let's forget I even mentioned it happens to cvs users : it happens to stable releases using official aircraft. It's not a showstopper, but seeing as very little effort is necessary to preserve MP visuals across model versions (and that's the extent of backward compatibility I'm talking about, don't anyone go putting words in my mouth). So before more folks chime in saying cvs is unstable, blabblabla, a fact I'm well aware of, let's focus on the fact that it's an universal issue, ranging across flight gear versions, platforms and branches. . This issue has nothing to do with development versions vs release : MP is an heterogenuous network, it's one of its great strengths, let's not go out of our ways to brake visuals consistency. This is basic common sense, but call it barebones userbase pampering if you will ;) I can live with all the glitches and hack my way out of some of them, time allowing, not sure average joe who's an aviation enthusiast and just wants to fly with friends in this particular simulator should have to hack things around. That he can is fabulous. Doesn't mean he has to. Not expecting or demanding anything, just wanted to voice a thought and to remind, as Syd proved it, that the fear of maintenance hell is just that, a fear. And Syd doesn't really care for MP :) That didn't prevent him from coming through, big time. As for external models, I was using that as an example, I certainly don't expect cvs contents to allow for them or correct errors in them... Rather, I was saying that if someone leaves, and is going to break compatibility it might be courteous to change the names of the aircraft, as in the folder name (and thus the paths inside all the xml files) to prevent this kind of problem. Prevention, not medication !!! ;) That should be food for thought, and that was all the whole point of mentioning the whole thing : I don't think it's much to ask that MP visual consistency be taken into account by aircraft authors in the absence of a system that would do it for them : an aircraft using the same folder name is the same aircraft as far as fgfs is concerned, so let's try to avoid situations where *changes in cvs models break MP visuals for stable releases. * Do we want to keep the flexibility of the MP system, or have it degenerate into a version/build discrete system that only shows you the a/c flying the exact same setup as you ? The latter would be a shame. Again, with a lack of a unified or official approach to the problem, all I'm asking is a little thought and not outright dismissal of keeping MP visuals consistent. Point, à la ligne. One last thing : thank you all for your hard work, I appreciate and am enjoying the hell out of it. Cheers, have a nice day, Nic On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 11:19 PM, Rob Shearman, Jr. rmsj...@yahoo.comwrote: Nic, It's also worth pointing out (again!) that users of CVS must accept that FG and its associated models are constant works-in-progress. Issues like you describe are easily fixable prior to an official release, but are difficult to manage in the constant state of flux between them. I'm in agreement with Syd that the benefits from changes which simplify an aircraft model's delivery outweigh the relatively small and temporary annoyance that comes with them. Cheers, -R. rm...@umd.edu -- Be Kind. Remember, everyone is fighting a hard battle. -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] MP notes on breaking compatibility with previous versions of aircrafts....
Hi all, there was a fly-in today in New Zealand, and even though a lot of us flew the same plane from the same author, we could only see each other as gliders. Why ? Because in the past couple months, some aircraft used today have undergone model file name changes as well as set file name changes, breaking compatibility for MP visualization purposes with previous versions (and preventing older versions of seeing the new ones also). MP being an heterogeneous environment as far as FGFS versions are concerned, I thought I'd point it out, and that some thought should go into renaming set and model files to avoid this kind of situation. The specific culprits today are Syd Adams (dhc2, for sure and dhc6 also, I think) and Gerard Robin (PBY-Catalina). There might have been more cases today, and I think we have a few more a/c in cvs who exhibit those symptoms :) This can be done by having the old set files and model files point to new ones in updated versions, so compat is maintained with older versions, for people flying the new one. Someone who knows the system more intimately can confirm whether it's just the set file, the model file or both that needs to be setup for this to work. Albeit, for people with older version, it seems they'll have to add the same kind of aliases for the new set and model files to see updated versions... I think this is a strong case for NOT needlessly changing set and model file names just to clean up things... Or, if the aircraft now exists in cvs and externally maintained versions, the considerate thing would be to rename the externally maintained version's folder so interested parties can have their cake and eat it : have both versions installed in the case of the Catalina (and other a/c maintained by Gerard which are both in cvs and his hangar). Not sure why this wasn't done for all of Gerard's a/c from the get go, as I seem to recall he changed folder names in at least one instance when he stopped maintaining the CVS versions. Or any other solution agreed upon by the community as how to deal with that particular MP issue. I'm sure it was all unintentional and a simple lack of foresight on the consequences such changes might have, but there we have it. Thanks for reading, Cheers, Nic -- Be Kind. Remember, everyone is fighting a hard battle. -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] MP notes on breaking compatibility with previous versions of aircrafts....
Yes , I'm one of the culprits , and it's not a lack of foresight ,I've done it for a reason. MP is not my biggest concern , I did these aircraft for my own purposes , not entirely with gamers in mind ... but Im glad some like them all the same. These aircraft use one fuselage model now , with gear and other aircraft specific options selected depending on type or name, with cockpit and internals separated to be selected within a certain distance.So there IS no dhc2floats or dhc2wheels. It can be set so the model is visible with older versions ,by adding another animation xml file with those names and adding the neccesary ac model bits ,but in my opinion adds more garbage to the folder. I,ve been updating the dhc-2 for more realistic behavior, (sorry gamers);), so it's nearly ready for another commit, and I can add the old versions , but there's also the option of adding these to the AI/Aircraft .Any idea on which option we should take from the rest of the modellers ? (My problem with that is you end up with two aircraft to maintain, and I tend to forget about the AI version). The specific culprits today are Syd Adams (dhc2, for sure and dhc6 also, I think) and Gerard Robin (PBY-Catalina). There might have been more cases today, and I think we have a few more a/c in cvs who exhibit those symptoms :) I'm sure it was all unintentional and a simple lack of foresight on the consequences such changes might have, but there we have it. Thanks for reading, Cheers, Nic -- Be Kind. Remember, everyone is fighting a hard battle. -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] MP notes on breaking compatibility with previous versions of aircrafts....
Thanks a lot for adding the model files to CVS, I was just done posting my own version of them on the forums :) I meant nothing by culprits, in case that wasn't clear, just as an example of what his us today : I'm a fan of your work on the Beaver and Twin Otter. I had completely forgotten about the Beaver model change, even though I had seen the cvs logs and wondered about it. The catalina, I didn't get around to having a fix around before today and warning people about it. Just wanted to bring this (back) to attention, as not all the userbase will dig deeper if the same aircraft with the same author doesn't work right away in MP ;) It would indeed be nice to hear what the modellers and devs have to say on how this should be tackled. Cheers, Nic On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 3:56 PM, syd adams adams@gmail.com wrote: Yes , I'm one of the culprits , and it's not a lack of foresight ,I've done it for a reason. MP is not my biggest concern , I did these aircraft for my own purposes , not entirely with gamers in mind ... but Im glad some like them all the same. These aircraft use one fuselage model now , with gear and other aircraft specific options selected depending on type or name, with cockpit and internals separated to be selected within a certain distance.So there IS no dhc2floats or dhc2wheels. It can be set so the model is visible with older versions ,by adding another animation xml file with those names and adding the neccesary ac model bits ,but in my opinion adds more garbage to the folder. I,ve been updating the dhc-2 for more realistic behavior, (sorry gamers);), so it's nearly ready for another commit, and I can add the old versions , but there's also the option of adding these to the AI/Aircraft .Any idea on which option we should take from the rest of the modellers ? (My problem with that is you end up with two aircraft to maintain, and I tend to forget about the AI version). The specific culprits today are Syd Adams (dhc2, for sure and dhc6 also, I think) and Gerard Robin (PBY-Catalina). There might have been more cases today, and I think we have a few more a/c in cvs who exhibit those symptoms :) I'm sure it was all unintentional and a simple lack of foresight on the consequences such changes might have, but there we have it. Thanks for reading, Cheers, Nic -- Be Kind. Remember, everyone is fighting a hard battle. -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Be Kind. Remember, everyone is fighting a hard battle. -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] MP notes on breaking compatibility with previous versions of aircrafts....
I'll fix the dhc-6 , but have to go back through cvs file to remember what the original names were . Im not crazy about people putting different verions of my aircraft on the forum as it kind of makes my work pointless , but it's bound to happen. I think I prefer to do it in the aircraft model folder rather than AI , since it will be easier to remember to remove when no longer needed. Cheers On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Nicolas Quijano nquij...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks a lot for adding the model files to CVS, I was just done posting my own version of them on the forums :) I meant nothing by culprits, in case that wasn't clear, just as an example of what his us today : I'm a fan of your work on the Beaver and Twin Otter. I had completely forgotten about the Beaver model change, even though I had seen the cvs logs and wondered about it. The catalina, I didn't get around to having a fix around before today and warning people about it. Just wanted to bring this (back) to attention, as not all the userbase will dig deeper if the same aircraft with the same author doesn't work right away in MP ;) It would indeed be nice to hear what the modellers and devs have to say on how this should be tackled. Cheers, Nic On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 3:56 PM, syd adams adams@gmail.com wrote: Yes , I'm one of the culprits , and it's not a lack of foresight ,I've done it for a reason. MP is not my biggest concern , I did these aircraft for my own purposes , not entirely with gamers in mind ... but Im glad some like them all the same. These aircraft use one fuselage model now , with gear and other aircraft specific options selected depending on type or name, with cockpit and internals separated to be selected within a certain distance.So there IS no dhc2floats or dhc2wheels. It can be set so the model is visible with older versions ,by adding another animation xml file with those names and adding the neccesary ac model bits ,but in my opinion adds more garbage to the folder. I,ve been updating the dhc-2 for more realistic behavior, (sorry gamers);), so it's nearly ready for another commit, and I can add the old versions , but there's also the option of adding these to the AI/Aircraft .Any idea on which option we should take from the rest of the modellers ? (My problem with that is you end up with two aircraft to maintain, and I tend to forget about the AI version). The specific culprits today are Syd Adams (dhc2, for sure and dhc6 also, I think) and Gerard Robin (PBY-Catalina). There might have been more cases today, and I think we have a few more a/c in cvs who exhibit those symptoms :) I'm sure it was all unintentional and a simple lack of foresight on the consequences such changes might have, but there we have it. Thanks for reading, Cheers, Nic -- Be Kind. Remember, everyone is fighting a hard battle. -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Be Kind. Remember, everyone is fighting a hard battle. -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] MP notes on breaking compatibility with previous versions of aircrafts....
Sorry, I was going to send you the changes right after posting, should have done it the other way around. But your commits made it all moot, so I removed the archive attachment in my forum post. Thanks for doing something about it with that much speed, Cheers, Nic On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 5:37 PM, syd adams adams@gmail.com wrote: I'll fix the dhc-6 , but have to go back through cvs file to remember what the original names were . Im not crazy about people putting different verions of my aircraft on the forum as it kind of makes my work pointless , but it's bound to happen. I think I prefer to do it in the aircraft model folder rather than AI , since it will be easier to remember to remove when no longer needed. Cheers -- Be Kind. Remember, everyone is fighting a hard battle. -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] MP notes on breaking compatibility with previous versions of aircrafts....
Nic, It's also worth pointing out (again!) that users of CVS must accept that FG and its associated models are constant works-in-progress. Issues like you describe are easily fixable prior to an official release, but are difficult to manage in the constant state of flux between them. I'm in agreement with Syd that the benefits from changes which simplify an aircraft model's delivery outweigh the relatively small and temporary annoyance that comes with them. Cheers, -R. Robert M. Shearman, Jr. Transit Operations Supervisor, University of Maryland Department of Transportation also known as rm...@umd.edu From: Nicolas Quijano nquij...@gmail.com To: FlightGear developers discussions flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 5:18:00 PM Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] MP notes on breaking compatibility with previous versions of aircrafts Thanks a lot for adding the model files to CVS, I was just done posting my own version of them on the forums :) I meant nothing by culprits, in case that wasn't clear, just as an example of what his us today : I'm a fan of your work on the Beaver and Twin Otter. I had completely forgotten about the Beaver model change, even though I had seen the cvs logs and wondered about it. The catalina, I didn't get around to having a fix around before today and warning people about it. Just wanted to bring this (back) to attention, as not all the userbase will dig deeper if the same aircraft with the same author doesn't work right away in MP ;) It would indeed be nice to hear what the modellers and devs have to say on how this should be tackled. Cheers, Nic On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 3:56 PM, syd adams adams@gmail.com wrote: Yes , I'm one of the culprits , and it's not a lack of foresight ,I've done it for a reason. MP is not my biggest concern , I did these aircraft for my own purposes , not entirely with gamers in mind ... but Im glad some like them all the same. These aircraft use one fuselage model now , with gear and other aircraft specific options selected depending on type or name, with cockpit and internals separated to be selected within a certain distance.So there IS no dhc2floats or dhc2wheels. It can be set so the model is visible with older versions ,by adding another animation xml file with those names and adding the neccesary ac model bits ,but in my opinion adds more garbage to the folder. I,ve been updating the dhc-2 for more realistic behavior, (sorry gamers);), so it's nearly ready for another commit, and I can add the old versions , but there's also the option of adding these to the AI/Aircraft .Any idea on which option we should take from the rest of the modellers ? (My problem with that is you end up with two aircraft to maintain, and I tend to forget about the AI version). The specific culprits today are Syd Adams (dhc2, for sure and dhc6 also, I think) and Gerard Robin (PBY-Catalina). There might have been more cases today, and I think we have a few more a/c in cvs who exhibit those symptoms :) I'm sure it was all unintentional and a simple lack of foresight on the consequences such changes might have, but there we have it. Thanks for reading, Cheers, Nic -- Be Kind. Remember, everyone is fighting a hard battle. -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Be Kind. Remember, everyone is fighting a hard battle. -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
