Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Vassilii Khachaturov]

> > I'm sure if I thought about it longer I would find some more
> > arguments.
>
> I have one to add: You need a graphical desktop in order to deal with
> the web forum because 'browsing' this forum with Lynx is a PITA (this
> is one of the rare occasions that I use this acronym  ;-)

Agreed, and this is why I wouldn't like the forum either. Currently
writing this from pine within a screen in a screen in a console of a
linux box, and X is down at the moment to free the memory for a kernel rebuild.

V


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Douglas Campos]

+1 for users forum

-1000 for developers forum


just my 0.01 cents.


On 11/30/06, Martin Spott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Melchior FRANZ wrote:
>
> > I'm sure if I thought about it longer I would find some more
> > arguments.
>
> I have one to add: You need a graphical desktop in order to deal with
> the web forum because 'browsing' this forum with Lynx is a PITA (this
> is one of the rare occasions that I use this acronym  ;-)
>
> Martin.
> --
>  Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
> --
>
> -
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Martin Spott]

Melchior FRANZ wrote:

> I'm sure if I thought about it longer I would find some more
> arguments.

I have one to add: You need a graphical desktop in order to deal with
the web forum because 'browsing' this forum with Lynx is a PITA (this
is one of the rare occasions that I use this acronym  ;-)

Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Melchior FRANZ]

I don't really care about which form is used for user support.
If passers-by prefer a web-based forum, then this *may* be the
better choice. (But also consider that someone has to do the
support. These are to a certain degree developers, so even here
it's not unimportant what those prefer. Unless we expect users
to help themselves, of course.)

But for development the answer is IMHO very clear. Mailing lists
are absolutely preferable, and forums are a big annoyance.

1. mail clients are made and optimized for message exchange,
   while web browsers are made for mere *display* of information.
   As a consequence, mail clients have decent editors, elaborated
   search functions, tagging, spell-checking, address books,
   address completion, filters and personal message categories
   (rather than cheesy sub-forums). One can easily CC messages
   to people who are not subscribed etc.
   In a web browser you get a small box where you have to write
   with often limited editing capabilities. It's easy to lose
   all one has written, too.

2. web forums often mangle messages: they have to convert all
   html-critical stuff (such as < to "<"; etc.), and they often
   replace or even remove(!) tabs. As a consequence, one can't
   take such a forum "message" and pipe it into the "patch" program,
   whereas it's quite normal to save a whole email and pipe it
   into "patch" with no problems whatsoever.

3. one can easily edit and reply to several emails while being
   offline. This is a pain with forums if you don't have DSL/ISDN,
   but an expensive dial-up connection.

4. this may not mean much to some people, but *I* prefer to see
   the sender's email address, the "date" header (with time zone
   information) etc. On forums all you get is a cheesy nick behind
   which people hide (I do :-). Sure, the admin has the mail
   address. But I'm not the admin.

5. it might be easier to explain POP3 scanning of the local
   provider's mail server to one's employer, than it might be to
   explain scanning the same "game" server in the U.S. all day
   long (yes, I'm speaking of www.flightgear.org ;-)

I'm sure if I thought about it longer I would find some more
arguments. Why is it that none of the *many* development projects
that I know uses a forum for development communication? Those
are always only used for users, if at all. We have already had
the same discussion in the past, and the mailing list clearly won.
Please don't bring the same thing up in regular intervals, in the
hope that people eventually give up their resistance. The only
effect would be that developers continued on an inofficial list,
basically ignoring the "official" development forum.  :-P

m.


PS: yes, I created an account on the users forum ...  :-}

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Jim Wilson]

> From: "Curtis Olson"
> 
> Now that I am hosting the FlightGear web site with a commercial hosting 
> service, it becomes quite easy to setup online "forums" using phpBB2.
> 
> I know our development culture is built around mailing lists.  I'm sure the 
> FlightGear community will be decisively split between forums versus mailing 
> lists if I ask people's preferences ... so I'm not expecting a consensus 
> here.  Is this anything that is worth exploring?  Is it worth having both 
> options available?  Would end user support benefit from forums?  Would forums 
> be useful for those that have trouble with sourceforge's spam blockers?  A 
> backup communication mechanism for when the sourceforge email lists 
> experience their inevitable down time?
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Curt.

Ummm...this email makes it sound like we are doing forums just because we can.  
I think it's already been said,  why this isn't such a great idea.  My vote 
would be to just ditch the three development categories.  To be honest, I'd 
sort of expect to see the forum format with third party groups and not the core 
project.  Keeping track of all these channels of dialog is just something I 
won't be able to do.

That said... I do have a fairly complete archive of mail in unix format going 
back 5 or 6 years (only for the -devel, -model, and -cvs lists).  This data 
could be used to build an archive on flightgear.org.  Is this idea of interest 
to anyone?

Best,

Jim


-- 
Jim Wilson
Kelco Industries
PO Box 160
Milbridge, ME 04658
207-546-7989



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums integration thought

[Tim Moore]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Jon Stockill wrote:
> Alex Perry wrote:
>>> I know our development culture is built around mailing lists.  I'm sure the
>>> FlightGear community will be decisively split between forums versus mailing
>>> lists if I ask people's preferences ... so I'm not expecting a consensus
>>> here.  Is this anything that is worth exploring?
>>>
>> I'd also hate to look in two places.  On the other hand, changing how we
>> present the mailing list archives so they look like a forum _and_ allow
>> replying if you have logged in ... would be really useful.  Logging in
>> implies an account whose email address has been verified in the same way
>> that mailman does.  So it can't be used for spamming unless you could
>> easily have spammed with the mailman list system.
> 
> Mailman has the facility to gate mailing lists to usenet groups. There's 
> also a PHP based news client, which presents it all just like a forum.
> 
gmane.org is already doing doing that for the flightgear lists. Is what
they provide "forum-like" enough?

Tim

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums integration thought

[Jon Stockill]

Alex Perry wrote:
>> I know our development culture is built around mailing lists.  I'm sure the
>> FlightGear community will be decisively split between forums versus mailing
>> lists if I ask people's preferences ... so I'm not expecting a consensus
>> here.  Is this anything that is worth exploring?
>>
> 
> I'd also hate to look in two places.  On the other hand, changing how we
> present the mailing list archives so they look like a forum _and_ allow
> replying if you have logged in ... would be really useful.  Logging in
> implies an account whose email address has been verified in the same way
> that mailman does.  So it can't be used for spamming unless you could
> easily have spammed with the mailman list system.

Mailman has the facility to gate mailing lists to usenet groups. There's 
also a PHP based news client, which presents it all just like a forum.

-- 
Jon Stockill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Mathias Fröhlich]

On Wednesday 29 November 2006 14:48, Josh Babcock wrote:
> Curtis Olson wrote:
> > On 11/28/06, Ron Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> And this is the biggest argument against forums.  They're only
> >> accessable when the server is up
> >
> > This is similar with email lists ... you can only post and receive
> > postings when the list server is running and configured correctly, and
> > unfortunately,
> > sourceforge seems to have more than it's fair share of downtime and
> > issues.
> >
> >> and its impossible to archive them locally.
> >
> > That is true, but the posts get indexed and archived by google, and we
> > all trust google with our lives, right? :-)
> >
> > Curt.
>
> I disagree. I use my local archive of e-mail as a reference all the
> time. I only go to the web to search the complete archives when I can't
> find what I am looking for locally.
Me too.
  Mathias

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums integration thought

[Mathias Fröhlich]

On Thursday 30 November 2006 06:20, Jon S. Berndt wrote:
>   Curt wrote:
>   I just realize I have said absolutely nothing. :-)
>
>   I think I'm going to let them run just a bit longer and then maybe we can
> an idea if enough people think they are useful and are using them.
>
> If the community is split into two different camps, communication is going
> to suffer, plain and simple. I can receive email wherever I am and reply or
> not.  I can set up filters and rules in my email program to sort the email
> posts. If the mails to the FlightGear-devel lists are archived in a forum,
> that's fine. If posts to a forum are likewise echoed to the -devel list,
> that's fine. In other words, if there are two ways to view a single
> communication venue, that's fine. But if there are two completely
> independent venues to discuss issues (say, the Users list), that would be
> very, very bad. It really defeats the purpose of having any kind of
> discussion group/list/forum at all.
Yep a mail gateway to such forums would do the trick.
To be honest, I do not see an advantage of inventing and driving such a 
gateway in favour of using a mailing list that is already set up.

   Greetings

  Mathias

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Mathias Fröhlich]

Hi,
On Wednesday 29 November 2006 05:24, Curtis Olson wrote:
> Now that I am hosting the FlightGear web site with a commercial hosting
> service, it becomes quite easy to setup online "forums" using phpBB2.
>
> I know our development culture is built around mailing lists.  I'm sure the
> FlightGear community will be decisively split between forums versus mailing
> lists if I ask people's preferences ... so I'm not expecting a consensus
> here.  Is this anything that is worth exploring?  Is it worth having both
> options available?  Would end user support benefit from forums?  Would
> forums be useful for those that have trouble with sourceforge's spam
> blockers?  A backup communication mechanism for when the sourceforge email
> lists experience their inevitable down time?
>
> Thoughts?
I do not like forums in any form.

I am subscribed on many mailing lists and I have filters that sort them into 
local archives that I can handle all in the same way. I do not want to look 
at many different web pages that all look different and that are searchable 
different and in a less comfortable way I can search my private mails. I had 
that often problems with forums or other web browser based applications that 
I have put together some statement and then the web browser happened to crash 
before that is submitted to the server ...

That said I will most probably switch to many more private offlist mails if we 
switch of the mailing list.

   Greetings

Mathias

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums integration thought

[Dene]

Jon S. Berndt wrote:
> On 11/29/06, *Jon S. Berndt* wrote: 
>
> If the community is split into two different camps,
> communication is going to suffer, plain and simple. I can
> receive email wherever I am and reply or not.  I can set up
> filters and rules in my email program to sort the email
> posts. If the mails to the FlightGear-devel lists are
> archived in a forum, that's fine. If posts to a forum
> are likewise echoed to the -devel list, that's fine. In other
> words, if there are two ways to view a single communication
> venue, that's fine. But if there are two
> completely independent venues to discuss issues (say, the
> Users list), that would be very, very bad. It really defeats
> the purpose of having any kind of discussion group/list/forum
> at all.
>
>
> All good points, but consider that we aren't really starting
> anything new here.  There are FlightGear forums that exist already
> (i.e. Avsim) where useful discussion occurs and where people
> actually expect to post questions or comments and get help and
> feedback.  So the forum thing is already in play ... 
>
> Curt. 
>
> True, the forum thing is already in play, and communication is 
> likewise already suffering because of it. I know this from experience. 
>  I'll be doing a Google search and find a reference to JSBSim, for 
> instance, with questions in it that simply go unanswered. I don't have 
> a problem with people discussing FlightGear or JSBSim or whatever in a 
> forum in Avsim, for instance, but it should be stated and understood 
> that if the question cannot be answered there, then the "official" 
> mailing list should be turned to. I'd just hate to see people pick and 
> choose one venue over the other, and pretty soon one Subject Matter 
> Expert disappears from view from those who have chosen the "other" 
> venue. I'd hate to see the mailing lists "watered down", diluted.
>  
> Jon
>
>
I like the forum because, being web-based, I can keep an eye on it at 
work and (occasionally if workload permits) answer questions that I 
would normally have to wait until I got home.
I like the mailing lists because the full post is emailed to me and I 
can apply rules that sort the FG-User and FG-Devel posts in to their 
respective folders.
I like the mailing lists because to monitor the mailing lists I need 
only one application open, the email client (Thunderbird for me), 
whereas with forums I need a browser open too.
I agree that having split formats is not desirable.
I like the idea of different forums as I can track the ones that are 
high priority to me (ones that I can actively participate in because of 
limitations in ability) but when I check those forums I can also keep an 
eye on other forums that might not be of immediate interest but contain 
issues of interest (mush the same way as Curt's CVS emails give me an 
overview of what's going on in CVS.

in conclusion --- at the moment I don't know --- lets keep the forum 
going for a while longer and see if the 16 registered users grows.

I notice the Devel forum has been locked, presumably because the 
overwhelming negative response from prominent developers... can't think 
of a benefit directly but that seems like a neat feature

and there is my $NZ0.03 (= $US0.02) worth.

Cheers
Dene
NZWN

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums integration thought

[Jon S. Berndt]

On 11/29/06, Jon S. Berndt wrote:
If the community is split into two different camps, communication is
going to suffer, plain and simple. I can receive email wherever I am and
reply or not.  I can set up filters and rules in my email program to sort
the email posts. If the mails to the FlightGear-devel lists are archived in
a forum, that's fine. If posts to a forum are likewise echoed to the -devel
list, that's fine. In other words, if there are two ways to view a single
communication venue, that's fine. But if there are two completely
independent venues to discuss issues (say, the Users list), that would be
very, very bad. It really defeats the purpose of having any kind of
discussion group/list/forum at all.

  All good points, but consider that we aren't really starting anything new
here.  There are FlightGear forums that exist already (i.e. Avsim) where
useful discussion occurs and where people actually expect to post questions
or comments and get help and feedback.  So the forum thing is already in
play ...


  Curt.
True, the forum thing is already in play, and communication is likewise
already suffering because of it. I know this from experience.  I'll be doing
a Google search and find a reference to JSBSim, for instance, with questions
in it that simply go unanswered. I don't have a problem with people
discussing FlightGear or JSBSim or whatever in a forum in Avsim, for
instance, but it should be stated and understood that if the question cannot
be answered there, then the "official" mailing list should be turned to. I'd
just hate to see people pick and choose one venue over the other, and pretty
soon one Subject Matter Expert disappears from view from those who have
chosen the "other" venue. I'd hate to see the mailing lists "watered down",
diluted.

Jon
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums integration thought

[Curtis Olson]

On 11/29/06, Jon S. Berndt wrote:


If the community is split into two different camps, communication is going
to suffer, plain and simple. I can receive email wherever I am and reply or
not.  I can set up filters and rules in my email program to sort the email
posts. If the mails to the FlightGear-devel lists are archived in a forum,
that's fine. If posts to a forum are likewise echoed to the -devel list,
that's fine. In other words, if there are two ways to view a single
communication venue, that's fine. But if there are two
completely independent venues to discuss issues (say, the Users list), that
would be very, very bad. It really defeats the purpose of having any kind
of discussion group/list/forum at all.



All good points, but consider that we aren't really starting anything new
here.  There are FlightGear forums that exist already (i.e. Avsim) where
useful discussion occurs and where people actually expect to post questions
or comments and get help and feedback.  So the forum thing is already in
play, I'd just like to see if I can consolodate it under one roof rather
than being spread around the world.  There's things I like about mailing
lists and things I like about web based forums.

Someday I'm going to follow in the footsteps of Knuth and refuse to use
email or forums at all.  When I get a secretary (probably in a future life)
their first task will be to start printing out all my emails for me. :-)

Curt.
--
Curtis Olson - University of Minnesota - FlightGear Project
http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
http://www.flightgear.org
Unique text: 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums integration thought

[Jon S. Berndt]

  Curt wrote:
  I just realize I have said absolutely nothing. :-)

  I think I'm going to let them run just a bit longer and then maybe we can
an idea if enough people think they are useful and are using them.

If the community is split into two different camps, communication is going
to suffer, plain and simple. I can receive email wherever I am and reply or
not.  I can set up filters and rules in my email program to sort the email
posts. If the mails to the FlightGear-devel lists are archived in a forum,
that's fine. If posts to a forum are likewise echoed to the -devel list,
that's fine. In other words, if there are two ways to view a single
communication venue, that's fine. But if there are two completely
independent venues to discuss issues (say, the Users list), that would be
very, very bad. It really defeats the purpose of having any kind of
discussion group/list/forum at all.

Jon
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums integration thought

[Curtis Olson]

On 11/29/06, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote:


On Wednesday 29 November 2006 13:29, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:27:29 -0800, Alex wrote in message
> >
> > I'd also hate to look in two places.  On the other hand, changing how
> > we present the mailing list archives so they look like a forum _and_
> > allow replying if you have logged in ... would be really useful.
> > Logging in implies an account whose email address has been verified in
> > the same way that mailman does.  So it can't be used for spamming
> > unless you could easily have spammed with the mailman list system.
>
> ..I too like this way of doing it.

Same here.




This sounds good and I've seen one place that had this set up (egroups?) but
I've not run across open-source software package that can actually do this
and I'm not at a point in my life where I have time to write a custom list
archiver/bbs hybrid system myself.

I don't know ... I'm not sold on the idea of forums exactly, but I do sense
that a different group of users will probably latch onto the forums and feel
a lot more comfortable using them versus email lists.  I think that email
lists are intimidating to some people ... and perhaps forums are
intimidating or seem like a pain to other people.  Maybe there's something
to be said about forcing/funneling all the discussions through one
mechanism, but on the other hand there's something to be said about giving
people options and letting them choose what they are most comfortable with.
I just realize I have said absolutely nothing. :-)

I think I'm going to let them run just a bit longer and then maybe we can an
idea if enough people think they are useful and are using them.

Regards,

Curt.
--
Curtis Olson - University of Minnesota - FlightGear Project
http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
http://www.flightgear.org
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums integration thought

[Ampere K. Hardraade]

On Wednesday 29 November 2006 13:29, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:27:29 -0800, Alex wrote in message
> >
> > I'd also hate to look in two places.  On the other hand, changing how
> > we present the mailing list archives so they look like a forum _and_
> > allow replying if you have logged in ... would be really useful.
> > Logging in implies an account whose email address has been verified in
> > the same way that mailman does.  So it can't be used for spamming
> > unless you could easily have spammed with the mailman list system.
>
> ..I too like this way of doing it.

Same here.

Ampere

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Pigeon]

> I prefer the mailing list. I think there are much tot little 
> contributions for splitting the topics in a forum (how many contributors 
> we have?). Up to now it's no problem to have the survey of all 
> contributions. If someone prefer the thread-sorted view: we have it on 
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum=flightgear-devel. The 
> forum preferring people need a reply button there.

On that note, I wanted to point out that FG's lists are also
archived at mail-archive.com:

http://www.mail-archive.com/flightgear-devel%40lists.sourceforge.net/

http://www.mail-archive.com/flightgear-users%40lists.sourceforge.net/

which I personally prefer, over SF's.


Pigeon.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Maik Justus]

Hi Curt,

I prefer the mailing list. I think there are much tot little 
contributions for splitting the topics in a forum (how many contributors 
we have?). Up to now it's no problem to have the survey of all 
contributions. If someone prefer the thread-sorted view: we have it on 
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum=flightgear-devel. The 
forum preferring people need a reply button there.

Maik


Curtis Olson schrieb am 29.11.2006 05:24:
> Now that I am hosting the FlightGear web site with a commercial 
> hosting service, it becomes quite easy to setup online "forums" using 
> phpBB2.
>
> I know our development culture is built around mailing lists.  I'm 
> sure the FlightGear community will be decisively split between forums 
> versus mailing lists if I ask people's preferences ... so I'm not 
> expecting a consensus here.  Is this anything that is worth 
> exploring?  Is it worth having both options available?  Would end user 
> support benefit from forums?  Would forums be useful for those that 
> have trouble with sourceforge's spam blockers?  A backup communication 
> mechanism for when the sourceforge email lists experience their 
> inevitable down time?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Curt.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums integration thought

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 09:27:29 -0800, Alex wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> 
> > I know our development culture is built around mailing lists.  I'm
> > sure the FlightGear community will be decisively split between
> > forums versus mailing lists if I ask people's preferences ... so I'm
> > not expecting a consensus here.  Is this anything that is worth
> > exploring?
> >
> 
> I'd also hate to look in two places.  On the other hand, changing how
> we present the mailing list archives so they look like a forum _and_
> allow replying if you have logged in ... would be really useful. 
> Logging in implies an account whose email address has been verified in
> the same way that mailman does.  So it can't be used for spamming
> unless you could easily have spammed with the mailman list system.

..I too like this way of doing it.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Josh Babcock]

Jon Stockill wrote:
> Stuart Buchanan wrote:
> 
>> So, my tuppence worth:
>> - Have a structure user forum, and possibly wind down the -user list in
>> the future.
> 
> I'd disagree - if anything you should create another mailing list to 
> gate the forum messages to.
> 
Of course, at some point in the future *that* mailing list will have to
be migrated to its own forum :)

Josh

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Josh Babcock]

Curtis Olson wrote:
> On 11/28/06, Ron Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> And this is the biggest argument against forums.  They're only
>> accessable when the server is up
> 
> 
> This is similar with email lists ... you can only post and receive postings
> when the list server is running and configured correctly, and
> unfortunately,
> sourceforge seems to have more than it's fair share of downtime and issues.
> 
> 
>> and its impossible to archive them locally.
> 
> 
> That is true, but the posts get indexed and archived by google, and we all
> trust google with our lives, right? :-)
> 
> Curt.
> 

I disagree. I use my local archive of e-mail as a reference all the
time. I only go to the web to search the complete archives when I can't
find what I am looking for locally.

Josh

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Roberto Inzerillo]

Online forums are perfect for new users, they can easily look around 
without being registered to any ML.
I suggest you monitor the forum for a while and check if people keep 
using it. Give it a year time (don't stop after a few months trial), and 
see what happens.

There is no perfect community communication tool around, people using 
them are the only judge. I guess developers will keep using the ML, but 
generic users are generally more used to forums.
  Roberto


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Leidson Campos A. Ferreira]

For FlightGear developers.

I think a good idea keep development discussions into mailing lists, because
this way is driven to developers only.
Maybe with a forum, questions with no relevance, help developers give no
focus to important development questions.

For end users

For end users, forum seems to be great and the easiest method to help find
information about flightgear.

For developer in general (using latest flightgear stable release to
interface it with own projects)

Forum is a good start and quoting myself experience. During all this year I
was working on a project using flightgear, but I did want only support to
questions not related to flightgear internal development and I did search
for a official forum, just to find simple questions about flightgear
interoperability. This could be easy to find on forum with a topic
"Flightgear interoperability".

Leidson Campos
PlanetaMessenger.org

On 11/29/06, Curtis Olson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Now that I am hosting the FlightGear web site with a commercial hosting
service, it becomes quite easy to setup online "forums" using phpBB2.

I know our development culture is built around mailing lists.  I'm sure
the FlightGear community will be decisively split between forums versus
mailing lists if I ask people's preferences ... so I'm not expecting a
consensus here.  Is this anything that is worth exploring?  Is it worth
having both options available?  Would end user support benefit from forums?
Would forums be useful for those that have trouble with sourceforge's spam
blockers?  A backup communication mechanism for when the sourceforge email
lists experience their inevitable down time?

Thoughts?

Curt.
--
Curtis Olson - University of Minnesota - FlightGear Project
http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ 
   http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/  http://www.flightgear.org
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Jon Stockill]

Stuart Buchanan wrote:

> So, my tuppence worth:
> - Have a structure user forum, and possibly wind down the -user list in
> the future.

I'd disagree - if anything you should create another mailing list to 
gate the forum messages to.

-- 
Jon Stockill
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Stuart Buchanan]

--- Curtis Olson wrote:
> Now that I am hosting the FlightGear web site with a commercial hosting
> service, it becomes quite easy to setup online "forums" using phpBB2.
> I know our development culture is built around mailing lists.  I'm sure
> the
> FlightGear community will be decisively split between forums versus
> mailing
> lists if I ask people's preferences ... so I'm not expecting a consensus
> here.  
> Is this anything that is worth exploring?  

Yes. I think the user community would benefit from a forum as it is more
granular and easier to browse for newbies. It would also help to foster a
sense of "community" c.f. the various MS FS fora. I think this is a major
benefit.

As the number of FG users ramps up, the number of messages will inevitably
increase, so some form of structure becomes critical. At some point we may
want to move all -user discussion to the forum and close the -user list.

However development is more time-specific and populated by people who can
search the archives. Plus it integrates much better into peoples messaging
systems. I can't see any benefit to having a development forum at all. In
fact, as others have mentioned, having to search two locations would be a
pain. I'd suggest that the fora topics explicitly exclude development
discussions other than possible a wish-list.

So, my tuppence worth:
- Have a structure user forum, and possibly wind down the -user list in
the future.
- Leave the -devel list as-is.

> Is it worth having both options available?  

Yes - I can't see any benefit in moving to a forum for devel.

> Would end user support benefit from forums?  

Absolutely. With appropriate structure it would reduce the number of
repeated question and new users would find it easier to browse. For
example I wouldn't have to provide a link to the manual section on the I/O
replay mechanism every couple of months ;)

-Stuart

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Melchior FRANZ]

* Curtis Olson -- Wednesday 29 November 2006 05:24:
> I know our development culture is built around mailing lists.

Exactly. I can't imagine to take part in forum based development.



> Is this anything that is worth exploring?

No.



> Is it worth having both options available?

Not that I knew.



> Would end user support benefit from forums?

The end user doesn't need to benefit from developer communication
other than by getting a better program. The developer is in the
center of development, not the user. (I wouldn't mind if the
users list would migrate, but I'd not take part there more often
than on the avsim forum either. Which is rather seldom.)



> A backup communication mechanism for when the sourceforge email 
> lists experience their inevitable down time?

A broken archive is no reason to dump development altogether.

m.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Dene]

Curtis Olson wrote:
> On 11/28/06, *Ron Jensen* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> And this is the biggest argument against forums.  They're only
> accessable when the server is up
>
>
> This is similar with email lists ... you can only post and receive 
> postings when the list server is running and configured correctly, and 
> unfortunately, sourceforge seems to have more than it's fair share of 
> downtime and issues.
>  
>
> and its impossible to archive them locally.
>
>
> That is true, but the posts get indexed and archived by google, and we 
> all trust google with our lives, right? :-)
>
> Curt.
>
Hi,
Had a lookregisteredwould like to give it a go

I like the local archiving of posts using a mailing list and agree the 
forum format is only as reliable as the server, but then again, so is 
the mailing list...

I like the overall view of the different topics.. for me, mailing list 
posts are a bit of a quandary, is scenery development  a user or 
developers topic... the forum format makes it very easy to choose
... yes I like it!

Dene
NZWN
(scenery developer)


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Curtis Olson]

On 11/28/06, Ron Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


And this is the biggest argument against forums.  They're only
accessable when the server is up



This is similar with email lists ... you can only post and receive postings
when the list server is running and configured correctly, and unfortunately,
sourceforge seems to have more than it's fair share of downtime and issues.



and its impossible to archive them locally.



That is true, but the posts get indexed and archived by google, and we all
trust google with our lives, right? :-)

Curt.
--
Curtis Olson - University of Minnesota - FlightGear Project
http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
http://www.flightgear.org
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:29:05 +1100, Pigeon wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> >A backup communication method might be good, but I'm not keen at
> >all on the idea of having to look two places for the same kind of
> >content. My feeling is that it should be one or the other.
> 
> Agreed. I think a forum has advantages over say a mailing list. 
> But
> then having both might not do any good. It's as hard to argue whether
> things should go into the wiki or the manual. I've seen many forums
> ended up having like 20 sticky posts at the top for useful
> information/FAQs.
> 
> 
> A note on phpbb: I have 3 phpbb setup for friends on my server and
> it constantly get spams and, and got hacked in multiple times (just
> the phpbb part, not the server/system). Now I'm not going to debate
> here where php/phpbb is good or bad, but my point is it might bring in
> quite a bit of administrating/monitoring/baby sitting work.

..most mail clients can do searches and I get the impression 
most people are unaware of this fact.  
Maybe setup a "mail list search engine web gui" and offer 
the "offline mail list search engine gui option" too?   ;o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Ron Jensen]

On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 23:01 -0600, Curtis Olson wrote:
> And I'm a moron and just wiped out the whole thing 2 seconds ago.  Let
> me try again ... thanks for your patience ... :-(
> 
> Curt.

And this is the biggest argument against forums.  They're only
accessable when the server is up and its impossible to archive them
locally.

Ron




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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Pigeon]

>A backup communication method might be good, but I'm not keen at
>all on the idea of having to look two places for the same kind of
>content. My feeling is that it should be one or the other.

Agreed. I think a forum has advantages over say a mailing list.  But
then having both might not do any good. It's as hard to argue whether
things should go into the wiki or the manual. I've seen many forums
ended up having like 20 sticky posts at the top for useful
information/FAQs.


A note on phpbb: I have 3 phpbb setup for friends on my server and
it constantly get spams and, and got hacked in multiple times (just the
phpbb part, not the server/system). Now I'm not going to debate here
where php/phpbb is good or bad, but my point is it might bring in quite
a bit of administrating/monitoring/baby sitting work.



Pigeon.


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Curtis Olson]

And I'm a moron and just wiped out the whole thing 2 seconds ago.  Let me
try again ... thanks for your patience ... :-(

Curt.


On 11/28/06, Curtis Olson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I'm just fiddling around and anything can be changed, but here is a first
whack.

http://www.flightgear.org/forums/

As Dave said we can setup any structure of categories and forums.  Right
now I've created one category with all the forum topics inside, but we could
certainly split things out more ... especially as we see how the discussion
proceeds.  I'm open to suggestions here, but I'm leaning towards making this
forum available as an option for those that want to use it.

I would still like to keep develop discussions funneled to the existing
sourceforge list.

The above forum link is live so feel free to create an account, reserve
your favorite user name, make a few posts, suggest different forum topics,
whatever you like:

Regards,

Curt.
--
Curtis Olson - University of Minnesota - FlightGear Project
http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ 
   http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/  http://www.flightgear.org
Unique text: 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d





--
Curtis Olson - University of Minnesota - FlightGear Project
http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
http://www.flightgear.org
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Curtis Olson]

I'm just fiddling around and anything can be changed, but here is a first
whack.

   http://www.flightgear.org/forums/

As Dave said we can setup any structure of categories and forums.  Right now
I've created one category with all the forum topics inside, but we could
certainly split things out more ... especially as we see how the discussion
proceeds.  I'm open to suggestions here, but I'm leaning towards making this
forum available as an option for those that want to use it.

I would still like to keep develop discussions funneled to the existing
sourceforge list.

The above forum link is live so feel free to create an account, reserve your
favorite user name, make a few posts, suggest different forum topics,
whatever you like:

Regards,

Curt.
--
Curtis Olson - University of Minnesota - FlightGear Project
http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
http://www.flightgear.org
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[John Wojnaroski]

Curtis Olson wrote:

> Now that I am hosting the FlightGear web site with a commercial 
> hosting service, it becomes quite easy to setup online "forums" using 
> phpBB2.
>
> I know our development culture is built around mailing lists.  I'm 
> sure the FlightGear community will be decisively split between forums 
> versus mailing lists if I ask people's preferences ... so I'm not 
> expecting a consensus here.  Is this anything that is worth 
> exploring?  Is it worth having both options available?  Would end user 
> support benefit from forums?  Would forums be useful for those that 
> have trouble with sourceforge's spam blockers?  A backup communication 
> mechanism for when the sourceforge email lists experience their 
> inevitable down time?
>
> Thoughts?
>
Anything you can do to foster communications, increase awareness, reduce 
"newbee" initiation, and expand levels of understanding is positive.  
Forums seem to be a bit more structured but some folks like that when 
searching for a specific topic

JW


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Forums?

[Jon S. Berndt]

  I know our development culture is built around mailing lists.  I'm sure
the FlightGear community will be decisively split between forums versus
mailing lists if I ask people's preferences ... so I'm not expecting a
consensus here.  Is this anything that is worth exploring?  Is it worth
having both options available?  Would end user support benefit from forums?
Would forums be useful for those that have trouble with sourceforge's spam
blockers?  A backup communication mechanism for when the sourceforge email
lists experience their inevitable down time?

  Thoughts?

  Curt.


A backup communication method might be good, but I'm not keen at all on the
idea of having to look two places for the same kind of content. My feeling
is that it should be one or the other.

Jon

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