FLUXLIST: Tragedy (Not the Bee Gees Song)
Hi - Well, the Fluxlist has been very quiet recently. Not surprising, I guess. I wonder what the response of the artist is to events and times such as these? A few thoughts, for what they're worth, from this side of the Pond - 1 Nice one, Meryl! Had to agree. 2 I object to the coming war on the following grounds - More innocent people are about to die. I can't see what it will achieve. The Taliban aren't going to surrender bin Laden. Despite what Bush and Blair say about it not being an attack on Muslims (and I'm sure it's not) ordinary, and ill-informed people the world over will think it is - that causing more unrest and trouble. On a lesser note, historic buildings will be destroyed. Surely there MUST be a better way to rid the world of terrorism. This is what the debate should be about. Hey ho - Peace and Love Roger
FLUXLIST: Princess Petal
Hi - Anyone heard from Patricia lately? I've had some empty e-mails with attachments recently which I've deleted. I wondered if maybe she'd caught this new virus. Or, if not her, then her computer. You know what I mean. XXX BTW Some interesting poems from teenagers about the Tragedy on my kids' website, if anyone's interested. From the home page go to the Gallery and from there to Teen Scene. The Poetry Zone offers young people the chance to publish their poetry on the web. It also has interviews with famous poets and resource material for teachers. http://www.poetryzone.co.uk
Re: FLUXLIST: Princess Petal
Yikes!! My attachments should never be deleted!! Exclamation point!! Viruses are not allowed (according to Norton)!! XX!! OO!! Princess Petal!! aka Princess Petal, Jr.!! (whose isp has mucked up her rather dated website, since she has no glimmer of how to switch servers, but not for long, if she has anything to do with it, and she does, she does...heh heh) Roger Stevens wrote: Hi - Anyone heard from Patricia lately? I've had some empty e-mails with attachments recently which I've deleted. I wondered if maybe she'd caught this new virus. Or, if not her, then her computer. You know what I mean. XXX BTW Some interesting poems from teenagers about the Tragedy on my kids' website, if anyone's interested. From the home page go to the Gallery and from there to Teen Scene. The Poetry Zone offers young people the chance to publish their poetry on the web. It also has interviews with famous poets and resource material for teachers. http://www.poetryzone.co.uk
Re: FLUXLIST: Tragedy (Not the Bee Gees Song)
Roger and all, It seems to me that the answer is education. Education as broad based and even handed as possible. The more people know about the planet they occupy, how they got where they are, etc. the happier they'll be. You know, the basics of hard science, a non-biased overview of as many arts and cultures as is possible, etc. The more knowledge people aquire the less likely they are to depend on god to tell them what to do with their lives. Surely it comes as no surprise to any of you that more people have died in the name of god than for any other reason. When you leave all of life's important decisions to a nebulous idea of omnipotence personified, well... it's not good. Badgergirl (nostalgic for the old left) -- From: Roger Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: FLUXLIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: FLUXLIST: Tragedy (Not the Bee Gees Song) Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001, 5:11 AM Hi - Well, the Fluxlist has been very quiet recently. Not surprising, I guess. I wonder what the response of the artist is to events and times such as these? A few thoughts, for what they're worth, from this side of the Pond - 1 Nice one, Meryl! Had to agree. 2 I object to the coming war on the following grounds - More innocent people are about to die. I can't see what it will achieve. The Taliban aren't going to surrender bin Laden. Despite what Bush and Blair say about it not being an attack on Muslims (and I'm sure it's not) ordinary, and ill-informed people the world over will think it is - that causing more unrest and trouble. On a lesser note, historic buildings will be destroyed. Surely there MUST be a better way to rid the world of terrorism. This is what the debate should be about. Hey ho - Peace and Love Roger
Re: FLUXLIST: Tragedy (Not the Bee Gees Song)
At 08:39 AM 9/22/01, you wrote: Roger and all, The more knowledge people aquire the less likely they are to depend on god to tell them what to do with their lives. Surely it comes as no surprise to any of you that more people have died in the name of god than for any other reason. When you leave all of life's important decisions to a nebulous idea of omnipotence personified, well... it's not good. Badgergirl (nostalgic for the old left) Well said, Badgergirl. You - and others - may find the following of interest: Religion's misguided missiles Promise a young man that death is not the end and he will willingly cause disaster http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,425,00.html John Blower - another old leftist
FLUXLIST: re badgergirl
And what's more wearisome still is using this situation to propagate anti-Israeli sentiment among the under educated and ill-informed. Speaking of which, I'm very curious as to the sources of your FACTs. There are many ways to spin a piece of info, friend, (but clearly you already have this talent). i posted the sources of my facts..clearly you didn't even read them i will post some more even though you posted no facts to dispute anything i said. To refer to Israel's policies (of which you seem to know very little) as ethnic cleansing, state terrorism, and apartheid (for god's sake!) is reactionary and rabble rousing in the extreme. jeez even Ted Koppel has questioned isreali policy in the occupied territories where have you been the past 35 odd years? fair enough i will give examples of each situation apartheid: currently under isreali law it is illegal for palestinians even ones that are also isreali citizens (and i use that term loosely because they're not allowed to vote, so maybe second class citizens is a more accurate term) and currently living in isreal to own land or own a business. in terms of isreali law palestinians are not even human. in violation of UN 242 in the occupied territories palestinian arabs are resticted access to the majority of roads, making it difficult for the palestinian inhabitants to even obtain water. for your amusement i will provide some interesting quotes: There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries, not one village, not one tribe should be left (Joseph Weitz, 1940). there is not such thing as Palestinians; they never existed (Golda Meir, 1969) We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters. (David Ben Gurion). Zionist colonization must either be terminated or carried out against the wishes of the native population.. It is important to speak Hebrew, but it is even more important to be able to shoot - or else I am through at playing with colonizing (Vladimir Jabotinsky, 1939). and this one i think sums it up best In Jerusalem, land expropriation, ID confiscations, home demolitions, withholding of building permits, and the importation of settler colonies within and around the city have become constant elements of Israel's demographic engineering through ethnic cleansing. Hanan Ashrawi, pretty much confirmed in reports by amnesty intenational Note: Ashrawi is the only palestinian i have quoted the rest are from various govt zionist officials a good article with some interesting facts: http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/israeleth1.htm 2001 amnesty international report on isreal in the occupied territories: http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2001.nsf/webmepcountries/ISRAEL+AND+OCCUPIED+TERRITORIES?OpenDocument 2000 amnesty international report: http://www.web.amnesty.org/web/ar2000web.nsf/countries/84837f03555284fd802568f200552934?OpenDocument 1999 report http://www.amnestyusa.org/ailib/aireport/ar99/mde15.htm these are the only amnesty reports i could find on the web several articles, with many facts. http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/meastwat.htm even more facts http://www.merip.org/ STATE TERRORISM: always called retaliation ... initially contrary to popular belief isreal wias infact the one who introduced terrorism to the middle east. the first incidents of the highjacking of planes and so forth was done by the isreali military during the first arab isreali war. the isreali military highjacked civilian palestinian airplanes to trade for soldiers captured during the war. a speciic example of state terrorism in 1985: the sequence is as follows: first came a PLO attack in Lanarca, Cyprus, where 3 isrealis where killed. The killers were immediately caught and placed on trial; they're now in jail. About a week later came the isreali bombing of Tunis in which, according to isreali correspondants, about 75 people where killed , 20 Tunisians, 55 palestinians, mostly civilians... [Chomsky, Chronicles of Dissent page 58] chomsky goes on to say and i'll just paraphrase, that the origionl lanarca attack was called retaliation for oft suppressed fact, for the isreali navy was using agents based in cyprus that were high jacking boatsisreali agants highjacking boats. all of that is fine and well EXCEPT the bombing of Tunis by ISREAL wasn't directed against the people who carried out the terrorist attack..ISREAL even conceded that the people they were bombing HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LANARCA ATTACK. it was just an easy target. when the people that did the attack probably came from Syria, but Syria can fight back. so isreal didn't retaliate against syria it bombed a defenseless target!!! that's the way it's done.of course with FULL U.S. COMPLICITY. and that's pretty typical, the norm, the status quo, definate state terrorism the origion of the word terrorism and i'm refering to the same article by noam chomsky
Re: FLUXLIST: re badgergirl
Gee, guess you sure told me! I did, in fact, look at your sources. Not exactly the most unbiased sources of info on the middle east (yes, even Amnesty International!) in my opinion. Noam Chomsky?! Oh the pain. But of course I always take as gospel whatever Ted Koppel says... Look, I'm not going to argue with you. I've been down this road before. Why waste my time and the time of the Fluxlist folk? Arguing with people like you is like trying to argue with a drunk, there's no point. Clearly the Palestinians (who are technically Jordanian) are nobel victims, innocent dupes,incapable of wrong doing and the Israelis are the schoolyard bullies of the Middle East, picking fights without provocation and stealing everyones lunch money. Reading the accounts of people you haven't met is not really helpful. I've known many people (both Israeli AND Arab) who live, work, and survive in that difficult terrain. They would all find your opinions (and much of your source material) dubious if not actually laughable. Here's a fact for you: Jews and Arabs are both Semitic peoples and see the world somewhat differently then the West. Their values and methods of communications are organized rather differently then those of Europe et al. Perhaps the answer is to leave them to it and stop trying to inflict our Western morals and values on two peoples who probably don't need the aggravation. But the real solution, of course, is to air-condition and carpet the entire region, then watch the tensions melt. That's my final answer. Badgergirl (Begging you to take a refresher course in English composition and use your spell check program, for mercy's sake.) -- From: jason pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: FLUXLIST: re badgergirl Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001, 11:49 AM
Re: FLUXLIST: re badgergirl
Noam Chomsky?! Oh the pain. I don't want to drag this out, but (in a pure desire for knowledge) I would be interested in any refutation of Chomsky that doesn't resort to *ad hominem* remarks ... because I haven't seen one (a refutation, that is) that hews to the same level of rigor he employs. The usual line is to refer to him as a corrupting influence, or as a traitor, or somesuch, which doesn't really cut it, for me. Just looking to broaden my horizons ... I'm not drunk ... not at the moment, anyhoo ... Thanks, Glenn Becker ++ http://www.burningclown.com Everyone's Portal to Nothing At All ++
