Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Milos Rancic]

On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 10:26, Samuel Klein  wrote:
> On 2/2/12, Thomas Dalton  wrote:
>> We're getting very off topic, but you are right that there is a problem
>> with dormant chapters. I know nothing about the Russian chapter, but I do
>> know how difficult it was to to get the first Wikimedia UK out of the way.
>>
>> Perhaps the WMF board should ask ChapCom to advise them on what chapters
>> are inactive or insufficiently open. The board can then give them a year to
>> improve or hold new, open elections and remove their chapter status if they
>> don't.
>
> This was on the agenda of this weekend's Board meeting, and we plan to
> ask ChapCom for exactly this.
>
> This sort of feedback should be easy and frequent across the movement
> - not only chapters, but also the WMF, global committees, and other
> movement groups or major initiatives, would all benefit from regular
> self-assessment and feedback on their activity and transparency.

Note that the Board should discuss first with ChapCom about widening
its scope. As ChapCom we never discussed about the level activity of
*existing* chapters, as well as we don't gather such information.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Samuel Klein]

On 2/2/12, Thomas Dalton  wrote:

> We're getting very off topic, but you are right that there is a problem
> with dormant chapters. I know nothing about the Russian chapter, but I do
> know how difficult it was to to get the first Wikimedia UK out of the way.
>
> Perhaps the WMF board should ask ChapCom to advise them on what chapters
> are inactive or insufficiently open. The board can then give them a year to
> improve or hold new, open elections and remove their chapter status if they
> don't.

This was on the agenda of this weekend's Board meeting, and we plan to
ask ChapCom for exactly this.

This sort of feedback should be easy and frequent across the movement
- not only chapters, but also the WMF, global committees, and other
movement groups or major initiatives, would all benefit from regular
self-assessment and feedback on their activity and transparency.

Sam

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Theo10011, 02/02/2012 00:36:

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:56 AM, Risker  wrote:



The appointed members of the Board are chosen for their specific expertise
and skill-set.  The Board does publicly identify the slots it is trying to
fill when looking for appointees, and the qualifications that they
require.



Do you know what any of those criteria are?


I'm interested in the answer to this question, too.

Nemo

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

MZ if you understand the process enough to create another page, I don't
think you need my help.
_
*Béria Lima*
 (351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 3 February 2012 21:56, MZMcBride  wrote:

> Béria Lima wrote:
> > On 1 February 2012 21:56, MZMcBride  wrote:
> >> Béria Lima wrote:
> >>> Risker, there are SEVERAL documents in meta with the guidelines used to
> >>> elect the Chapter seats. Say that "nobody knows" is a bit offensive.
> >>
> >> SEVERAL pages on Meta-Wiki? It's a wonder they haven't been memorized by
> >> all members of the Wikimedia community.
> >>
> >> It's fair to say that there are resources available regarding chapter
> seats
> >> on Meta-Wiki (and provide links!); it isn't really fair to suggest that
> >> anyone be familiar with the tangled mess that is Meta-Wiki. I've been
> >> editing there for quite some time and I still regularly discover pages
> and
> >> processes (or get frustrated with not being able to find them and
> create my
> >> own).
> >>
> >> I've always found the chapter seats poorly explained and often
> >> misunderstood. If there are resources on Meta-Wiki (or even
> >> wikimediafoundation.org) that can clarify some of this to me and
> others,
> >> I'd certainly appreciate links. :-)
> >
> > See 1st message in this thread MZ.
>
> You're referring to these links (repeating links isn't a terrible thing to
> do, particularly in longer threads):
>
> * https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats
> *
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats/2012/Nominate
>
> Sorry, I was a bit unclear, but neither of these were really what I was
> looking for. I think both of those pages are messy, very internal, and
> difficult to understand.
>
> I started improving <
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Board_of_Trustees>
> to be what I was looking for. :-)
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[MZMcBride]

Béria Lima wrote:
> On 1 February 2012 21:56, MZMcBride  wrote:
>> Béria Lima wrote:
>>> Risker, there are SEVERAL documents in meta with the guidelines used to
>>> elect the Chapter seats. Say that "nobody knows" is a bit offensive.
>> 
>> SEVERAL pages on Meta-Wiki? It's a wonder they haven't been memorized by
>> all members of the Wikimedia community.
>> 
>> It's fair to say that there are resources available regarding chapter seats
>> on Meta-Wiki (and provide links!); it isn't really fair to suggest that
>> anyone be familiar with the tangled mess that is Meta-Wiki. I've been
>> editing there for quite some time and I still regularly discover pages and
>> processes (or get frustrated with not being able to find them and create my
>> own).
>> 
>> I've always found the chapter seats poorly explained and often
>> misunderstood. If there are resources on Meta-Wiki (or even
>> wikimediafoundation.org) that can clarify some of this to me and others,
>> I'd certainly appreciate links. :-)
> 
> See 1st message in this thread MZ.

You're referring to these links (repeating links isn't a terrible thing to
do, particularly in longer threads):

* https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats
* https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats/2012/Nominate

Sorry, I was a bit unclear, but neither of these were really what I was
looking for. I think both of those pages are messy, very internal, and
difficult to understand.

I started improving 
to be what I was looking for. :-)

MZMcBride



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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Ilario Valdelli]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Risker  wrote:
>
> The appointed members of the Board are chosen for their specific expertise
> and skill-set.  The Board does publicly identify the slots it is trying to
> fill when looking for appointees, and the qualifications that they
> require.
>
> The chapter-selected seats...nobody knows what criteria are being used,
> what specific expertise is being sought, what skill-set is being selected
> for.  The end result, as best I can see from the first two rounds, is "the
> same people who could easily have run for election, because they're well
> known and widely active in the community".
>
> Risker/Anne

Do you mean that the selection by the community applies some neutral parameters?

Do you mean that all users participating in the elections through the
community use these neutral parameters to put their vote.

Do you mean that the other seats are assigned with "open" and
"transparent" process?

I would know if your criticism is applied for the process of selection
of all seats or only for the seats of the chapters because in this
last case you miss something. And this "something" is exactly the
"neutral" evaluation of the whole process.

Ilario

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Thomas Dalton]

On 3 February 2012 14:13, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:
> Not that I disagree, but I think this invites us to think what actual role
> the chapters have. Indeed, my impression (which might be wrong since I have
> never performed any statistical analysis) is that the majority of the
> chapter board members (and, for this purpose, the majority of participants
> of this mailing list) are somewhat disentangled from the editing process -
> at least often I check their contribution on their home page I find a
> laughable amount of edits in the article namespace, for instance, a
> two-digit amount per year. (I know there are exceptions). I remember some
> time ago it was a discussion of the threshold for voters at the community
> Board elections with the main idea that it is sometimes difficult to people
> included in governance to have 50 edits in half a year, even if the edits
> made after the announcement are accepted. I understand that many chapter
> boards members are just busy with other things, I know they are often
> administrators and have a lot of contributions in the Wikipedia namespace
> for instance, I understand that the task of chapter boards is not writing
> articles, and I do not want to accuse anybody - but still, is this exactly
> what we had in mind when chapters were created?

I think it is inevitable that people involved in other aspects of the
movement won't be as involved in editing. I don't see a problem with
that.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

> I think it makes sense to get board members selected by the community 
> and board members selected by chapters because the focus is different. 
> I'd love to see members selected by the community being active editors, 
> involved on a regular basis on the project with editorial and soft 
> development activities. And I also love seeing board members selected by

> the chapters being more involved with the organizational side of things 
> (finances, legal, partnership and so on). Both sides are necessary.
> 
> Chapters are not so good to identify good representants of the editorial

> community. And the community is not so good at selecting board members 
> with specific expertise and knowledge on the organizational side of 
> things. Both selections complement each other greatly.
> 

Not that I disagree, but I think this invites us to think what actual role
the chapters have. Indeed, my impression (which might be wrong since I have
never performed any statistical analysis) is that the majority of the
chapter board members (and, for this purpose, the majority of participants
of this mailing list) are somewhat disentangled from the editing process -
at least often I check their contribution on their home page I find a
laughable amount of edits in the article namespace, for instance, a
two-digit amount per year. (I know there are exceptions). I remember some
time ago it was a discussion of the threshold for voters at the community
Board elections with the main idea that it is sometimes difficult to people
included in governance to have 50 edits in half a year, even if the edits
made after the announcement are accepted. I understand that many chapter
boards members are just busy with other things, I know they are often
administrators and have a lot of contributions in the Wikipedia namespace
for instance, I understand that the task of chapter boards is not writing
articles, and I do not want to accuse anybody - but still, is this exactly
what we had in mind when chapters were created? 

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[David Gerard]

On 3 February 2012 12:57, Florence Devouard  wrote:

> I do not know if Phoebe would have been community elected or not. She did
> not try. I can only guess that if she were not chosen this year by chapters,
> she could very well be community elected in the future because she is
> obviously very involved and doing good stuff. Excellent secretary as well.


It would be bizarre for the chapters to select any incumbent board
member - these are the people who voted unanimously twice for the
image filter, the second time in the face of the first time nearly
causing a project fork. WM-DE in fact passed a resolution against an
image filter. The chapters would be negligent in their duty if they
were to ignore candidates' positions on such movement-splitting
issues.


- d.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Florence Devouard]

On 2/3/12 11:15 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:

As in... Michael Snow ?

Who is a fabulous guy, ran in community election, and was turned down ?

Florence




Domas?

I do not think we respect him less because of that.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Domas was not a chapter proposition :)

Until now, chapter propositions have been Arne, Phoebe and Michael.

Michael was turned down by community. Aware he would be a great asset, 
he was appointed by the board first, then proposed by chapters second to 
extend his time on the board. He was a great choice.


I do not know if Phoebe would have been community elected or not. She 
did not try. I can only guess that if she were not chosen this year by 
chapters, she could very well be community elected in the future because 
she is obviously very involved and doing good stuff. Excellent secretary 
as well.


As for Arne... I may be wrong but I think he would not have been willing 
to run for community elections. I also think he was a good choice.


We may not have enough years of experience to be able to draw serious 
conclusions regarding chapter selections quality. But the two sessions 
draw good names.


I think it makes sense to get board members selected by the community 
and board members selected by chapters because the focus is different. 
I'd love to see members selected by the community being active editors, 
involved on a regular basis on the project with editorial and soft 
development activities. And I also love seeing board members selected by 
the chapters being more involved with the organizational side of things 
(finances, legal, partnership and so on). Both sides are necessary.


Chapters are not so good to identify good representants of the editorial 
community. And the community is not so good at selecting board members 
with specific expertise and knowledge on the organizational side of 
things. Both selections complement each other greatly.


My regret though is that the community tend to reelect the same 
people over time, as long as they candidate again and WMF did not do 
anything outrageously wrong. The inconvenience of this is that board 
members are naturally pushed away from editorial activity (not enough 
time, fear of legal responsibilities etc.). And the outcome is that the 
board may be less and less in touch with the realities of the projects 
themselves. It may be one of the benefits from drawing candidates to the 
board from at least these 3 different pools (community, chapters, 
appointed) to balance the risk of a board getting too stable.


I would not object if the current WMF board would restructure the system 
so that board members be selected from 4 different pools (such as 
community, chapters, appointed, groups of interest). I think it would 
add a diversity and a pinch of instability which may perhaps lack a 
little bit right now.


Florence


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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

> As in... Michael Snow ?
> 
> Who is a fabulous guy, ran in community election, and was turned down ?
> 
> Florence
> 
> 

Domas?

I do not think we respect him less because of that.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Florence Devouard]

On 2/2/12 12:26 AM, Risker wrote:

On 1 February 2012 18:17, Theo10011  wrote:


On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:06 AM, Risker  wrote:


In what way do chapter-selected seats improve the running of the WMF,
Thomas?  The Board has no say in who is being selected, and there is no
basis in fact to say that those appointed by the chapters are any more
effective or helpful in meeting the Board's goals or running the WMF than
would community-elected Wikimedians.



Risker, you know the point applies to appointed members of the board as
well. They are selected through even a more private process for seemingly
unlimited terms, they make up the other half of the board. I am surprised
why questions about their interest and representation aren't raised on
every new appointment?

The chapter selected member, at least go through a vetting and a voting
process that is open to several chapters and thousand of members.




The appointed members of the Board are chosen for their specific expertise
and skill-set.  The Board does publicly identify the slots it is trying to
fill when looking for appointees, and the qualifications that they
require.

The chapter-selected seats...nobody knows what criteria are being used,
what specific expertise is being sought, what skill-set is being selected
for.  The end result, as best I can see from the first two rounds, is "the
same people who could easily have run for election, because they're well
known and widely active in the community".

Risker/Anne


As in... Michael Snow ?

Who is a fabulous guy, ran in community election, and was turned down ?

Florence


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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Jussi-Ville Heiskanen]

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Stuart West  wrote:
>
> The hope was to attract/identify Board candidates who could add a lot
> of value to the movement but who, for one reason or another, would
> NOT typically be candidates in election.  That might be because they
> aren't well-known in the editing community that decides elections.  Or
> as Thomas mentions that they wouldn't be interested in going through
> the sometimes grueling election process.

There is a very noted cognitive dissonance here. I don't see how it
would be more grueling to be "frankly and freely" discussed in
private, than being so discussed in public. If that was what was
genuinely happening. In practise what appeared to be the thing that
needed to be shielded from the public gaze was the process, not the
candidates or any speech about them. I am sorry, but I have call them
as I see them.


-- 
--
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Jussi-Ville Heiskanen]

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Thomas Dalton  wrote:


>
> Last time, the chapters decided to keep the process very confidential
> in order to allow free and frank discussion of the candidates.

Jeebus, if that was the goal, it signally failed. I never saw so much
equivocation, pussy-footing and politicing in my life... I am a grown
up man and it takes a lot to reduce me to tears, but this pretty much
takes the cake, to riff on Christopher Hitchens...

> It was
> felt that it would be good to have confidential discussions, in
> contrast to the public ones that are associated with the community
> elected seats, because that might attract different candidates than
> would stand for the community elected seats (ie. candidates that don't
> want lots of discussion about every good and bad quality they have
> happening in public - the selection process can involve a much greater
> intrusion on privacy than actually serving on the board does).

To be free and frank, I don't see how that relates to any past,
present or future real life fact on the ground. Firstly, the
candidates were pretty much the usual suspects that would have been up
for community seats. Secondly as past practise has shown, we really
don't want thin-skinned people on the board. That leads to escalation
of drama, not reduction of it.


-- 
--
Jussi-Ville Heiskanen, ~ [[User:Cimon Avaro]]

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Thomas Dalton]

On Feb 2, 2012 8:22 AM, "Yaroslav M. Blanter"  wrote:
> Would you please also comment on Russia which has a chapter consisting of
> I believe seven (or nine?) members, which does not accept new members and
> maintains an invitation-only mailing list (which is open not only to
> chapter members, but one still needs to apply and give an explanation why
> he/she wants to be on the list, or be invited by a chapter member)?
> Everyone can be involved in the activities organized by the chapter (which
> are admittedly not so many), but what about elections and representation?

We're getting very off topic, but you are right that there is a problem
with dormant chapters. I know nothing about the Russian chapter, but I do
know how difficult it was to to get the first Wikimedia UK out of the way.

Perhaps the WMF board should ask ChapCom to advise them on what chapters
are inactive or insufficiently open. The board can then give them a year to
improve or hold new, open elections and remove their chapter status if they
don't.
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

> My conclusion was that for even relatively big languages like Catalan it
is
> impossible to get representation in community elections unless you start
> writing in English Wikipedia.
> 
 
Well, if I remember correctly, at some point we elected an Italian board
member in the community elections. (I do not even mention a French member
and a German/Chinese member, since it is easy to argue that these are major
languages). It all very much depends on the candidates individually and on
the set of the candidates. This does not invalidate your point (and I
personally believe that we need other avenues of elections that the direct
community elections), but is intended to put the argument in a good
perspective.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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[Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Joan Goma]

Hi Bence

I did my own non official statistics about voters and candidates by
language.

Here you are:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Gom%C3%A0/Elections_2011

en-wiki presented 39% of the candidates, casted 30% of the votes and
obtained 66% of the members.
de-wiki presented 18% of the candidates, casted 14% of the votes and
obtained 33% of the members.

The next languages casting most votes where French (8,5%)  Spanish (6%) and
Catalan (4,9%) . None of them obtained any seat although the candidate who
were native speaker of  French and Catalan (Claudi Balaguer) was very close
to be elected together with two very well known members of the community
Milos and Lodewijk, with about 30 votes of difference among those 3
candidates.

In those elections more than 60% of Catalan editors with right to vote
participated while percentage of participation in English was ridiculous.

My conclusion was that for even relatively big languages like Catalan it is
impossible to get representation in community elections unless you start
writing in English Wikipedia.

The Situation of countries without a chapter is a problem but situation of
languages without a country is a disgrace. The problem can be solved by
setting up a chapter but the disgrace has no solution they will never be
able to be represented in the board.

Board cannot be widened to an unbearable number of members but if we
increased the number of community elected board members to 6 by
transforming chapter selected members and by picking one from board
selected (or perhaps having a board of 11 members as even numbers are
always more advisable for decision bodies than odd) then:

1) Communities could have the feeling that Foundation is an organization at
their service because the majority of the governing body is elected by them.
2) Chapters doesn’t lose their capability to participate and influence in
elections if they where able to mobilize their affiliates.
3) Candidates of languages able to mobilize around 5% of the votes could
have some chances to be elected opening doors to more diversity.



Anyway it seems to me that we should find mechanisms to allow participation
in governance to editors of those projects that neither have a chapter nor
is likely that can have influence in community elections.



Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 01:46:12 +0100
> From: Bence Damokos 
>
> I think the community elections are sometimes perceived as en.wikipedia
> centric, even if the actual voter turnout could suggest otherwise. (I
> haven't been able to find voter statistics per project, so the perception
> might actually be correct even if the people who win are at least partially
> international.)
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

> *It is difficult to get involved in chapters when, like me, you live in
>> Africa, and the only approved chapter for the entire continent is 8,000
>> kilometres away.*
>>
> 
> Create one in your country! :D That is basicaly what we are doing in
> IberoCoop - help groups from all over Latin World with guidance and
help.
> And IF they want to became a chapter, we help them (talk with ChapCom
> members, each month we have a new request from a Latin Chapter ;) )
> 
> I know isn't easy in Africa, but isn't easy either in Latin America, and
we
> are doing it.

Would you please also comment on Russia which has a chapter consisting of
I believe seven (or nine?) members, which does not accept new members and
maintains an invitation-only mailing list (which is open not only to
chapter members, but one still needs to apply and give an explanation why
he/she wants to be on the list, or be invited by a chapter member)?
Everyone can be involved in the activities organized by the chapter (which
are admittedly not so many), but what about elections and representation?

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

Cyrano. Let's go by parts.

*(...) How should the candidate be chosen?
> *


By chapter consensus, that if not reach by a certain date, will became a
vote in which each chapter get to choose which candidate they like. More
details in:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats/2012/Process

*Also, can I present myself as a candidate? Can I vote?
> *


No, you can't vote (as explained above, only chapters can vote) but of
course you can present yourself as a candidate, to know what are the
requirements and how to present your candidature, go to
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats/2012/Nominate
_
*Béria Lima*
(351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 1 February 2012 23:53, cyrano  wrote:

>
> Excuse my ignorance, I haven't read the 50 mails yet, but how should the
> candidate be chosen? By community vote? By chapter's members ? (do you
> need registering ?). Will the WMF chose among them? Sorry if I missed
> the relevant docs, I'm new to this.
>
> Also, can I present myself as a candidate? Can I vote?
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Thomas Dalton]

On 2 February 2012 01:53, cyrano  wrote:
>
> Excuse my ignorance, I haven't read the 50 mails yet, but how should the
> candidate be chosen? By community vote? By chapter's members ? (do you
> need registering ?). Will the WMF chose among them? Sorry if I missed
> the relevant docs, I'm new to this.
>
> Also, can I present myself as a candidate? Can I vote?

You should at least read the first email...

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[cyrano]

Excuse my ignorance, I haven't read the 50 mails yet, but how should the
candidate be chosen? By community vote? By chapter's members ? (do you
need registering ?). Will the WMF chose among them? Sorry if I missed
the relevant docs, I'm new to this.

Also, can I present myself as a candidate? Can I vote?

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Bence Damokos]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:42 AM, J Alexandr Ledbury-Romanov <
alexandrdmitriroma...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2012/2/1 Béria Lima 
>
> > that is a bit OT but...
> >
>
> Not at all, it is a statement of fact. The continent of Africa is scarcely
> represented in terms of Chapters, despite being the world's largest
> geographically and second most populous geographically.
>
> >
> > *It is difficult to get involved in chapters when, like me, you live in
> > > Africa, and the only approved chapter for the entire continent is 8,000
> > > kilometres away.*
> > >
> >
> > Create one in your country! :D That is basicaly what we are doing in
> > IberoCoop - help groups from all over Latin World with guidance and help.
> > And IF they want to became a chapter, we help them (talk with ChapCom
> > members, each month we have a new request from a Latin Chapter ;) )
> >
> > I rather expected you to say that. Currently the number of people on Meta
> who have expressed an interest (two to three years ago) does not excede 10.
> I daresay with help from ChapCom something could be done, though.
>
> Notwithstanding, that would leave another 54 unrepresented countries. My
> point is that African residents are disenfranchised virtually totally from
> the selection. That's nearly 15% of the world's population (though not of
> its readers/editors).
>

Unfortunately, readers and editors from Africa represent only 1% and 0.6%
respectively of the total traffic to Wikimedia sites (
http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportPageEditsPerCountryOverview.htm
;
http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportPageViewsPerCountryTrends.htm
).
However, it is good news that we have a chapter in South Africa
(technically still working on being incorporated) and one in Kenya (to be
approved by the Board soon). Together they could represent 5% of the votes
for chapter selected seats if they finish their founding process on time.

Best regards,
Bence
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Bence Damokos]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:13 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> On 2 February 2012 00:06, Cristian Consonni 
> wrote:
> > Anyway, from the results of the least chapter and community seats
> > election my opinion is that the former are *wyyy* more
> > en.wiki-centered than the first.
>
> Really? How do you work that out? The current occupants of the chapter
> seats are one English Wikipedian and one German Wikipedians (50%
> en.wiki), the community seats are two English Wikipedians and one
> German/Chinese Wikipedian (67% en.wiki). (Judging by their biographies
> at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Board_of_Trustees )
>
> He was talking about the election, not necessarily the result. But in any
case, that is still a 33% difference.
I think the community elections are sometimes perceived as en.wikipedia
centric, even if the actual voter turnout could suggest otherwise. (I
haven't been able to find voter statistics per project, so the perception
might actually be correct even if the people who win are at least partially
international.)

Anyhow, the nice chart at
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Board_of_Trustees does suggest
that editors of the English Wikipedia or people of an Anglo-Saxon
background tend to occupy around half of the elected seats at any time;
while the majority of the appointed seats seem to be held by people who fit
this category. At least this is a general perception, of course many of
them edit other projects, live in different countries and speak languages,
but you can't help if people have a perception that the chapter selected
seats might not be as en.wiki centric (although, there is a good chance
that we simply continue the pattern of choosing an English and a
non-English native speaker trustee).

Best regards,
Bence
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[J Alexandr Ledbury-Romanov]

2012/2/1 Béria Lima 

> that is a bit OT but...
>

Not at all, it is a statement of fact. The continent of Africa is scarcely
represented in terms of Chapters, despite being the world's largest
geographically and second most populous geographically.

>
> *It is difficult to get involved in chapters when, like me, you live in
> > Africa, and the only approved chapter for the entire continent is 8,000
> > kilometres away.*
> >
>
> Create one in your country! :D That is basicaly what we are doing in
> IberoCoop - help groups from all over Latin World with guidance and help.
> And IF they want to became a chapter, we help them (talk with ChapCom
> members, each month we have a new request from a Latin Chapter ;) )
>
> I rather expected you to say that. Currently the number of people on Meta
who have expressed an interest (two to three years ago) does not excede 10.
I daresay with help from ChapCom something could be done, though.

Notwithstanding, that would leave another 54 unrepresented countries. My
point is that African residents are disenfranchised virtually totally from
the selection. That's nearly 15% of the world's population (though not of
its readers/editors).


> I know isn't easy in Africa, but isn't easy either in Latin America, and we
> are doing it.
>


I am sure it is not easy to create a Chapter anywhere, and that Latin
America presents its own challenges. I suspect Africa is particularly
demanding with regards to languages spoken, compared to Latin America.


> On 1 February 2012 20:59, J Alexandr Ledbury-Romanov <
> alexandrdmitriroma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Having seats appointed by movement organizations like the chapters
> offers
> > > a chance to involve of another subset of our community:  those who are
> > > interested enough in governance issues to get involved in the
> leadership
> > /
> > > decision-making of movement organizations. That's also an important
> > subset
> > > of our community.
> > >
> > >
> > > The existing chapter presence is a barrier to entry. It is difficult to
> > get involved in chapters when, like me, you live in Africa, and the only
> > approved chapter for the entire continent is 8,000 kilometres away.
> > ___
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

See 1st message in this thread MZ.
_
*Béria Lima*
(351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 1 February 2012 21:56, MZMcBride  wrote:

> Béria Lima wrote:
> > Risker, there are SEVERAL documents in meta with the guidelines used to
> > elect the Chapter seats. Say that "nobody knows" is a bit offensive.
>
> SEVERAL pages on Meta-Wiki? It's a wonder they haven't been memorized by
> all
> members of the Wikimedia community.
>
> It's fair to say that there are resources available regarding chapter seats
> on Meta-Wiki (and provide links!); it isn't really fair to suggest that
> anyone be familiar with the tangled mess that is Meta-Wiki. I've been
> editing there for quite some time and I still regularly discover pages and
> processes (or get frustrated with not being able to find them and create my
> own).
>
> I've always found the chapter seats poorly explained and often
> misunderstood. If there are resources on Meta-Wiki (or even
> wikimediafoundation.org) that can clarify some of this to me and others,
> I'd
> certainly appreciate links. :-)
>
> MZMcBride
>
>
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Thomas Dalton]

On 2 February 2012 00:06, Cristian Consonni  wrote:
> Anyway, from the results of the least chapter and community seats
> election my opinion is that the former are *wyyy* more
> en.wiki-centered than the first.

Really? How do you work that out? The current occupants of the chapter
seats are one English Wikipedian and one German Wikipedians (50%
en.wiki), the community seats are two English Wikipedians and one
German/Chinese Wikipedian (67% en.wiki). (Judging by their biographies
at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Board_of_Trustees )

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Cristian Consonni]

2012/2/2 Oliver Keyes :
> Oh, agreed. But what I'm interested in is not "should be", but whether the
> rhetoric in internal chapter elections is usually dominated by, or even
> includes, mention of the wider governance issues.
>
> I think chapters have a crucial role to play in movement governance, and
> that trustees of each chapter should be at the forefront of that. But are
> they selected with that role in mind?

Well, for WM-IT all assemblies are open to public and we always tried
to have them at least audio-streamed if we technically could (but that
would be in Italian, though).

Anyway, from the results of the least chapter and community seats
election my opinion is that the former are *wyyy* more
en.wiki-centered than the first.

I am surely highly biased, but I think people in the chapters having
to confront with their local reality (here included local
legislation), with the WMF and the communities of the projects (for
events, meetups, etc.) have more opportunities to gain a "global
governance" perspective than others.
Both in the sense of the whole "Wikimedia world" from editors up to
the WMF staff and the WMF Board, but also in the sense of a better
perception of the diversity of the conditions and characteristics of
the different parts of the Wikimedia movement around the world.

Cristian
WM-IT

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Thomas Dalton]

On 1 February 2012 23:44, Béria Lima  wrote:
> Wikimedia Portugal held votes between their members to 2008 and 2010
> elections. I know WMFR, WMUK and WMAR do the same, and the list can go on...

Really? If I had known WMPT had breached confidentiality like that at
the time, I would have voided your vote...

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[MZMcBride]

Béria Lima wrote:
> Risker, there are SEVERAL documents in meta with the guidelines used to
> elect the Chapter seats. Say that "nobody knows" is a bit offensive.

SEVERAL pages on Meta-Wiki? It's a wonder they haven't been memorized by all
members of the Wikimedia community.

It's fair to say that there are resources available regarding chapter seats
on Meta-Wiki (and provide links!); it isn't really fair to suggest that
anyone be familiar with the tangled mess that is Meta-Wiki. I've been
editing there for quite some time and I still regularly discover pages and
processes (or get frustrated with not being able to find them and create my
own).

I've always found the chapter seats poorly explained and often
misunderstood. If there are resources on Meta-Wiki (or even
wikimediafoundation.org) that can clarify some of this to me and others, I'd
certainly appreciate links. :-)

MZMcBride



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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[John Vandenberg]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Oliver Keyes  wrote:
> Oh, agreed. But what I'm interested in is not "should be", but whether the
> rhetoric in internal chapter elections is usually dominated by, or even
> includes, mention of the wider governance issues.
>
> I think chapters have a crucial role to play in movement governance, and
> that trustees of each chapter should be at the forefront of that. But are
> they selected with that role in mind?

In my experience, yes the chapter boards are comprised of people who
are suitable for making these decisions.  Some individuals on some
chapter boards may not be, but each board is a group of people, and
each chapter has rules which ensure that their decisions are a
majority of their board.

-- 
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Oliver Keyes]

And how will that work this year if, as I am understanding it, virtually
all the information about the candidates will be hidden?

On 1 February 2012 23:44, Béria Lima  wrote:

> Wikimedia Portugal held votes between their members to 2008 and 2010
> elections. I know WMFR, WMUK and WMAR do the same, and the list can go
> on...
> _
> *Béria Lima*
>  (351) 925 171 484
>
> *Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
> livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
> construir esse sonho. *
>
>
> On 1 February 2012 21:42, Oliver Keyes  wrote:
>
> > You're misunderstanding; I'm saying the Board of Trustees nominations
> > happening on the chapters wiki is open merely to the representatives of
> > chapters, not to the thousands of members apparently taking part. Please
> do
> > list those chapters who have an internal vote of the membership before
> > voting on the Chapter Representatives for the Board of Trustees; I would
> > imagine it's going to be *rather* small, particularly if you're not
> > actually allowed to tell your members who is running or anything about
> > them.
> >
> > On 1 February 2012 23:40, Theo10011  wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:50 AM, Oliver Keyes 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > No; it's open to several chapters. If you're planning on holding the
> > > > process in private, it's in no way open to thousands of members -
> it's
> > > open
> > > > to representatives of thousands of members who were not, I would
> wager,
> > > > selected because of their opinions on wider movement governance.
> > > >
> > >
> > > What?
> > >
> > > Chapters by definition have to have a board, and be open to membership.
> > The
> > > decision taken by the board and representatives, is usually vetted
> > > internally, it is representative of the entire chapter; as much as the
> > > community elected members are representative of the entire community,
> > > beyond just the individuals that voted. The community elected members
> > > aren't called, the community-who-voted board members.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Theo
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > (personal opinion, etc)
> > > >
> > > > On 1 February 2012 23:17, Theo10011  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:06 AM, Risker 
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > In what way do chapter-selected seats improve the running of the
> > WMF,
> > > > > > Thomas?  The Board has no say in who is being selected, and there
> > is
> > > no
> > > > > > basis in fact to say that those appointed by the chapters are any
> > > more
> > > > > > effective or helpful in meeting the Board's goals or running the
> > WMF
> > > > than
> > > > > > would community-elected Wikimedians.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Risker, you know the point applies to appointed members of the
> board
> > as
> > > > > well. They are selected through even a more private process for
> > > seemingly
> > > > > unlimited terms, they make up the other half of the board. I am
> > > surprised
> > > > > why questions about their interest and representation aren't raised
> > on
> > > > > every new appointment?
> > > > >
> > > > > The chapter selected member, at least go through a vetting and a
> > voting
> > > > > process that is open to several chapters and thousand of members.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > > Theo
> > > > > ___
> > > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Oliver Keyes
> > > > Community Liaison, Product Development
> > > > Wikimedia Foundation
> > > > ___
> > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > >
> > > ___
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> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Oliver Keyes
> > Community Liaison, Product Development
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > ___
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Oliver Keyes]

Oh, agreed. But what I'm interested in is not "should be", but whether the
rhetoric in internal chapter elections is usually dominated by, or even
includes, mention of the wider governance issues.

I think chapters have a crucial role to play in movement governance, and
that trustees of each chapter should be at the forefront of that. But are
they selected with that role in mind?

On 1 February 2012 23:44, John Vandenberg  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Oliver Keyes 
> wrote:
> > No; it's open to several chapters. If you're planning on holding the
> > process in private, it's in no way open to thousands of members - it's
> open
> > to representatives of thousands of members who were not, I would wager,
> > selected because of their opinions on wider movement governance.
>
> I'll take your wager :P
>
> Chapter board members are *constantly* swimming in both local and
> wider movement governance issues.  The members of chapters should be
> looking for board members who are able to effectively represent them
> in those waters.
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

Wikimedia Portugal held votes between their members to 2008 and 2010
elections. I know WMFR, WMUK and WMAR do the same, and the list can go on...
_
*Béria Lima*
 (351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 1 February 2012 21:42, Oliver Keyes  wrote:

> You're misunderstanding; I'm saying the Board of Trustees nominations
> happening on the chapters wiki is open merely to the representatives of
> chapters, not to the thousands of members apparently taking part. Please do
> list those chapters who have an internal vote of the membership before
> voting on the Chapter Representatives for the Board of Trustees; I would
> imagine it's going to be *rather* small, particularly if you're not
> actually allowed to tell your members who is running or anything about
> them.
>
> On 1 February 2012 23:40, Theo10011  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:50 AM, Oliver Keyes 
> wrote:
> >
> > > No; it's open to several chapters. If you're planning on holding the
> > > process in private, it's in no way open to thousands of members - it's
> > open
> > > to representatives of thousands of members who were not, I would wager,
> > > selected because of their opinions on wider movement governance.
> > >
> >
> > What?
> >
> > Chapters by definition have to have a board, and be open to membership.
> The
> > decision taken by the board and representatives, is usually vetted
> > internally, it is representative of the entire chapter; as much as the
> > community elected members are representative of the entire community,
> > beyond just the individuals that voted. The community elected members
> > aren't called, the community-who-voted board members.
> >
> > Regards
> > Theo
> >
> >
> > >
> > > (personal opinion, etc)
> > >
> > > On 1 February 2012 23:17, Theo10011  wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:06 AM, Risker  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In what way do chapter-selected seats improve the running of the
> WMF,
> > > > > Thomas?  The Board has no say in who is being selected, and there
> is
> > no
> > > > > basis in fact to say that those appointed by the chapters are any
> > more
> > > > > effective or helpful in meeting the Board's goals or running the
> WMF
> > > than
> > > > > would community-elected Wikimedians.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Risker, you know the point applies to appointed members of the board
> as
> > > > well. They are selected through even a more private process for
> > seemingly
> > > > unlimited terms, they make up the other half of the board. I am
> > surprised
> > > > why questions about their interest and representation aren't raised
> on
> > > > every new appointment?
> > > >
> > > > The chapter selected member, at least go through a vetting and a
> voting
> > > > process that is open to several chapters and thousand of members.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Theo
> > > > ___
> > > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Oliver Keyes
> > > Community Liaison, Product Development
> > > Wikimedia Foundation
> > > ___
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > ___
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> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Oliver Keyes
> Community Liaison, Product Development
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[John Vandenberg]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Oliver Keyes  wrote:
> No; it's open to several chapters. If you're planning on holding the
> process in private, it's in no way open to thousands of members - it's open
> to representatives of thousands of members who were not, I would wager,
> selected because of their opinions on wider movement governance.

I'll take your wager :P

Chapter board members are *constantly* swimming in both local and
wider movement governance issues.  The members of chapters should be
looking for board members who are able to effectively represent them
in those waters.

-- 
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Oliver Keyes]

You're misunderstanding; I'm saying the Board of Trustees nominations
happening on the chapters wiki is open merely to the representatives of
chapters, not to the thousands of members apparently taking part. Please do
list those chapters who have an internal vote of the membership before
voting on the Chapter Representatives for the Board of Trustees; I would
imagine it's going to be *rather* small, particularly if you're not
actually allowed to tell your members who is running or anything about them.

On 1 February 2012 23:40, Theo10011  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:50 AM, Oliver Keyes  wrote:
>
> > No; it's open to several chapters. If you're planning on holding the
> > process in private, it's in no way open to thousands of members - it's
> open
> > to representatives of thousands of members who were not, I would wager,
> > selected because of their opinions on wider movement governance.
> >
>
> What?
>
> Chapters by definition have to have a board, and be open to membership. The
> decision taken by the board and representatives, is usually vetted
> internally, it is representative of the entire chapter; as much as the
> community elected members are representative of the entire community,
> beyond just the individuals that voted. The community elected members
> aren't called, the community-who-voted board members.
>
> Regards
> Theo
>
>
> >
> > (personal opinion, etc)
> >
> > On 1 February 2012 23:17, Theo10011  wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:06 AM, Risker  wrote:
> > >
> > > > In what way do chapter-selected seats improve the running of the WMF,
> > > > Thomas?  The Board has no say in who is being selected, and there is
> no
> > > > basis in fact to say that those appointed by the chapters are any
> more
> > > > effective or helpful in meeting the Board's goals or running the WMF
> > than
> > > > would community-elected Wikimedians.
> > >
> > >
> > > Risker, you know the point applies to appointed members of the board as
> > > well. They are selected through even a more private process for
> seemingly
> > > unlimited terms, they make up the other half of the board. I am
> surprised
> > > why questions about their interest and representation aren't raised on
> > > every new appointment?
> > >
> > > The chapter selected member, at least go through a vetting and a voting
> > > process that is open to several chapters and thousand of members.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Theo
> > > ___
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Oliver Keyes
> > Community Liaison, Product Development
> > Wikimedia Foundation
> > ___
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> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Theo10011]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:50 AM, Oliver Keyes  wrote:

> No; it's open to several chapters. If you're planning on holding the
> process in private, it's in no way open to thousands of members - it's open
> to representatives of thousands of members who were not, I would wager,
> selected because of their opinions on wider movement governance.
>

What?

Chapters by definition have to have a board, and be open to membership. The
decision taken by the board and representatives, is usually vetted
internally, it is representative of the entire chapter; as much as the
community elected members are representative of the entire community,
beyond just the individuals that voted. The community elected members
aren't called, the community-who-voted board members.

Regards
Theo


>
> (personal opinion, etc)
>
> On 1 February 2012 23:17, Theo10011  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:06 AM, Risker  wrote:
> >
> > > In what way do chapter-selected seats improve the running of the WMF,
> > > Thomas?  The Board has no say in who is being selected, and there is no
> > > basis in fact to say that those appointed by the chapters are any more
> > > effective or helpful in meeting the Board's goals or running the WMF
> than
> > > would community-elected Wikimedians.
> >
> >
> > Risker, you know the point applies to appointed members of the board as
> > well. They are selected through even a more private process for seemingly
> > unlimited terms, they make up the other half of the board. I am surprised
> > why questions about their interest and representation aren't raised on
> > every new appointment?
> >
> > The chapter selected member, at least go through a vetting and a voting
> > process that is open to several chapters and thousand of members.
> >
> > Regards
> > Theo
> > ___
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Oliver Keyes
> Community Liaison, Product Development
> Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Theo10011]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:56 AM, Risker  wrote:

>
> The appointed members of the Board are chosen for their specific expertise
> and skill-set.  The Board does publicly identify the slots it is trying to
> fill when looking for appointees, and the qualifications that they
> require.
>

Do you know what any of those criteria are? The voted members also have
certain expertise and skill-sets, and then they go through a voting
process.


>
> The chapter-selected seats...nobody knows what criteria are being used,
> what specific expertise is being sought, what skill-set is being selected
> for.  The end result, as best I can see from the first two rounds, is "the
> same people who could easily have run for election, because they're well
> known and widely active in the community".
>

Again, I can't speak on the specifics of the election process. Beyond that,
the chapter elected members, give their presentation, are nominated by a
chapter, and most of their expertise, are known to the individuals voting
for them. This seems similar to community elected members. I can not speak
about the need for privacy, ideally as much as can be public, should be. I
can understand requests to have certain amount of information made public,
but there also needs to be a safe place to discuss these issues.

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

Risker, there are SEVERAL documents in meta with the guidelines used to
elect the Chapter seats. Say that "nobody knows" is a bit offensive.
_
*Béria Lima*
(351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 1 February 2012 21:26, Risker  wrote:

> On 1 February 2012 18:17, Theo10011  wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:06 AM, Risker  wrote:
> >
> > > In what way do chapter-selected seats improve the running of the WMF,
> > > Thomas?  The Board has no say in who is being selected, and there is no
> > > basis in fact to say that those appointed by the chapters are any more
> > > effective or helpful in meeting the Board's goals or running the WMF
> than
> > > would community-elected Wikimedians.
> >
> >
> > Risker, you know the point applies to appointed members of the board as
> > well. They are selected through even a more private process for seemingly
> > unlimited terms, they make up the other half of the board. I am surprised
> > why questions about their interest and representation aren't raised on
> > every new appointment?
> >
> > The chapter selected member, at least go through a vetting and a voting
> > process that is open to several chapters and thousand of members.
> >
> >
>
> The appointed members of the Board are chosen for their specific expertise
> and skill-set.  The Board does publicly identify the slots it is trying to
> fill when looking for appointees, and the qualifications that they
> require.
>
> The chapter-selected seats...nobody knows what criteria are being used,
> what specific expertise is being sought, what skill-set is being selected
> for.  The end result, as best I can see from the first two rounds, is "the
> same people who could easily have run for election, because they're well
> known and widely active in the community".
>
> Risker/Anne
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

that is a bit OT but...

*It is difficult to get involved in chapters when, like me, you live in
> Africa, and the only approved chapter for the entire continent is 8,000
> kilometres away.*
>

Create one in your country! :D That is basicaly what we are doing in
IberoCoop - help groups from all over Latin World with guidance and help.
And IF they want to became a chapter, we help them (talk with ChapCom
members, each month we have a new request from a Latin Chapter ;) )

I know isn't easy in Africa, but isn't easy either in Latin America, and we
are doing it.
_
*Béria Lima*
(351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 1 February 2012 20:59, J Alexandr Ledbury-Romanov <
alexandrdmitriroma...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > Having seats appointed by movement organizations like the chapters offers
> > a chance to involve of another subset of our community:  those who are
> > interested enough in governance issues to get involved in the leadership
> /
> > decision-making of movement organizations. That's also an important
> subset
> > of our community.
> >
> >
> > The existing chapter presence is a barrier to entry. It is difficult to
> get involved in chapters when, like me, you live in Africa, and the only
> approved chapter for the entire continent is 8,000 kilometres away.
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Joan Goma]

 Yo are right but those figures tell us that chapters are in a very strong
position if they where able to mobilize their 4000 affiliates in the
community board elections. I wonder how many of the 3400 participants in
the community elections were also affiliated to some chapter.

*
*

> *John Vandenberg* jayvdb at gmail.com 
> 
>
> *Wed Feb  1 22:38:29 UTC 2012*
>
> In the 2011 community board election, less than 3400 "users" voted.[1]
>
> In the 2012 chapter board election, 39 chapters consisting of more
> than 4000 identified people will be voting.[2]
>
> Unfortunately neither process captures a large percentage of the
> active Wikimedian community.
>
>
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Risker]

On 1 February 2012 18:17, Theo10011  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:06 AM, Risker  wrote:
>
> > In what way do chapter-selected seats improve the running of the WMF,
> > Thomas?  The Board has no say in who is being selected, and there is no
> > basis in fact to say that those appointed by the chapters are any more
> > effective or helpful in meeting the Board's goals or running the WMF than
> > would community-elected Wikimedians.
>
>
> Risker, you know the point applies to appointed members of the board as
> well. They are selected through even a more private process for seemingly
> unlimited terms, they make up the other half of the board. I am surprised
> why questions about their interest and representation aren't raised on
> every new appointment?
>
> The chapter selected member, at least go through a vetting and a voting
> process that is open to several chapters and thousand of members.
>
>

The appointed members of the Board are chosen for their specific expertise
and skill-set.  The Board does publicly identify the slots it is trying to
fill when looking for appointees, and the qualifications that they
require.

The chapter-selected seats...nobody knows what criteria are being used,
what specific expertise is being sought, what skill-set is being selected
for.  The end result, as best I can see from the first two rounds, is "the
same people who could easily have run for election, because they're well
known and widely active in the community".

Risker/Anne
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Oliver Keyes]

No; it's open to several chapters. If you're planning on holding the
process in private, it's in no way open to thousands of members - it's open
to representatives of thousands of members who were not, I would wager,
selected because of their opinions on wider movement governance.

(personal opinion, etc)

On 1 February 2012 23:17, Theo10011  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:06 AM, Risker  wrote:
>
> > In what way do chapter-selected seats improve the running of the WMF,
> > Thomas?  The Board has no say in who is being selected, and there is no
> > basis in fact to say that those appointed by the chapters are any more
> > effective or helpful in meeting the Board's goals or running the WMF than
> > would community-elected Wikimedians.
>
>
> Risker, you know the point applies to appointed members of the board as
> well. They are selected through even a more private process for seemingly
> unlimited terms, they make up the other half of the board. I am surprised
> why questions about their interest and representation aren't raised on
> every new appointment?
>
> The chapter selected member, at least go through a vetting and a voting
> process that is open to several chapters and thousand of members.
>
> Regards
> Theo
> ___
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



-- 
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Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Theo10011]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 4:06 AM, Risker  wrote:

> In what way do chapter-selected seats improve the running of the WMF,
> Thomas?  The Board has no say in who is being selected, and there is no
> basis in fact to say that those appointed by the chapters are any more
> effective or helpful in meeting the Board's goals or running the WMF than
> would community-elected Wikimedians.


Risker, you know the point applies to appointed members of the board as
well. They are selected through even a more private process for seemingly
unlimited terms, they make up the other half of the board. I am surprised
why questions about their interest and representation aren't raised on
every new appointment?

The chapter selected member, at least go through a vetting and a voting
process that is open to several chapters and thousand of members.

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Risker]

On 1 February 2012 17:38, Stuart West  wrote:

> On Feb 1, 2012, at 2:17 PM, Risker wrote:
>
> > it gives the impression that the current three
> > elected members of the board are somehow considered not representative of
> > the movement  It
> > concerns me a lot that the 97% of active Wikimedians who are not chapter
> > members seem to not be considered part of the movement.
>
> Anne, my personal view is that elections capture the input of a certain
> subset of our community:  those editors who are fairly active and who are
> interested in governance issues.  That subset of our editors is an
> important part of our community.
>
> Having seats appointed by movement organizations like the chapters offers
> a chance to involve of another subset of our community:  those who are
> interested enough in governance issues to get involved in the leadership /
> decision-making of movement organizations. That's also an important subset
> of our community.
>
> But, to your point, neither of these two subsets alone nor the combination
> of the two fully represents our movement.  Many groups are excluded.  For
> example, the "silent majority" of 75,000+ active editors who haven't
> historically voted in elections. Or our 475 million readers. etc., etc.,
> etc.
>
> Governance and suffrage in an online community is really, really hard.  I
> don't think we have the perfect system.  Our current board structure was
> put in place less than 4 years ago.  The one thing I know is that it will
> change as we try new things to make it better.  I want us to continue
> improving it.  And I for one am open to absolutely any suggestion for how
> we can do that.
>
>
I do agree that governance and suffrage is hard; however, it shouldn't
intentionally be designed to give a disproportionate representation (and
essentially double suffrage) to one subset of the community over another.
Chapter members have the opportunity to influence five seats on the Board;
those who are unable (for many variations of "unable") to be chapter
members are only able to influence three seats.

Risker/Anne
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[J Alexandr Ledbury-Romanov]

>
> Having seats appointed by movement organizations like the chapters offers
> a chance to involve of another subset of our community:  those who are
> interested enough in governance issues to get involved in the leadership /
> decision-making of movement organizations. That's also an important subset
> of our community.
>
>
> The existing chapter presence is a barrier to entry. It is difficult to
get involved in chapters when, like me, you live in Africa, and the only
approved chapter for the entire continent is 8,000 kilometres away.
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Oliver Keyes]

(personal opinion); no, 39 chapter people voted. Hands up everyone who
voted for their chapter's trustees because they trusted their judgment in
appointing members of the WMF Board?

The rhetoric is most certainly not like that in the UK. Trustee elections
tend to be scoped as "and this is what [candidate] plans to do to extend
the wikimedia movement in the UK"; how they feel about wider governance
issues, last time, at least, didn't come into it. It is incredibly risky to
say that just because a group of individuals is trusted to run GLAM events
in a nation, we trust them to vote on board members - or we appointed them*
*for that reason.

On 1 February 2012 22:38, John Vandenberg  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Risker  wrote:
> > On 1 February 2012 16:44, Stuart West  wrote:
> >
> >> I'll give my personal view on the question, and invite others on the
> board
> >> to jump in.  I think the difference between the specific expertise seats
> >> and the appointed seats is subtle but important.
> >>
> >> My sense is that the WMF Board specific expertise seats are more focused
> >> on board operations and governance.  so the Board might do a
> >> self-assessment and identify that it needs someone with financial/audit
> >> oversight experience to serve as Board Treasurer, and then go out and
> find
> >> it. That's me.  It's also reactive and designed to fill in the gaps.
>  So we
> >> as Board decided a few years ago that we lacked sufficient insight and
> >> perspective from outside North America and Europe, so we sought out and
> >> were incredibly luck to find Bishakha.
> >>
> >> The opportunity for the two seats appointed by movement organizations
> like
> >> the chapters is broader.  Many more people are involved in identifying
> and
> >> surfacing potential candidates, so it has the potential to cast a wider
> and
> >> more thoughtful net.  And there is less constraint to meet specific
> >> governance needs, which frees up the process to focus on the people and
> >> perspectives that can have the most positive impact on our movement's
> >> pursuit of the mission.
> >>
> >> -
> >>
> >
> > This is well and good, but it gives the impression that the current three
> > elected members of the board are somehow considered not representative of
> > the movement, and that the opaque selection and appointment process for
> the
> > "chapter" seats is somehow more representative of the movement.  It
> > concerns me a lot that the 97% of active Wikimedians who are not chapter
> > members seem to not be considered part of the movement.
>
> In the 2011 community board election, less than 3400 "users" voted.[1]
>
> In the 2012 chapter board election, 39 chapters consisting of more
> than 4000 identified people will be voting.[2]
>
> Unfortunately neither process captures a large percentage of the
> active Wikimedian community.
>
> 1. see bottom of
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_elections/2011/Results/en
>
> 2. see "members" column of
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters#Existing_chapters
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
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Wikimedia Foundation
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Thomas Dalton]

On 1 February 2012 22:38, John Vandenberg  wrote:
> In the 2011 community board election, less than 3400 "users" voted.[1]
>
> In the 2012 chapter board election, 39 chapters consisting of more
> than 4000 identified people will be voting.[2]

Those 4000 people won't be voting, though. The chapter boards who they
elected will be voting on their behalf. That's not the same thing. (It
was said above that some chapters might let their membership decide
how the chapter will vote, but if the chapters really are using the
same process as last time that isn't an option because the list of
candidates is confidential - you can't vote if you don't know who the
options are.)

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Thomas Dalton]

On 1 February 2012 22:36, Risker  wrote:
> In what way do chapter-selected seats improve the running of the WMF,
> Thomas?  The Board has no say in who is being selected, and there is no
> basis in fact to say that those appointed by the chapters are any more
> effective or helpful in meeting the Board's goals or running the WMF than
> would community-elected Wikimedians.

Chapter board members, since they serve on boards themselves, are
obviously going to know more about what the board needs than the
general community. They also have long and detailed discussions about
who to select, rather than just having a simple vote. Additionally,
having chapter-selected seats helps the WMF and chapters work better
together.

> I would think that direct appointment of those with specific skill sets
> would be how the board ensure it is "capable of running the WMF as well as
> possible."

Of course, but that wouldn't be at all representative and would make
the existing board too powerful. It's all about balance.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[John Vandenberg]

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 9:17 AM, Risker  wrote:
> On 1 February 2012 16:44, Stuart West  wrote:
>
>> I'll give my personal view on the question, and invite others on the board
>> to jump in.  I think the difference between the specific expertise seats
>> and the appointed seats is subtle but important.
>>
>> My sense is that the WMF Board specific expertise seats are more focused
>> on board operations and governance.  so the Board might do a
>> self-assessment and identify that it needs someone with financial/audit
>> oversight experience to serve as Board Treasurer, and then go out and find
>> it. That's me.  It's also reactive and designed to fill in the gaps.  So we
>> as Board decided a few years ago that we lacked sufficient insight and
>> perspective from outside North America and Europe, so we sought out and
>> were incredibly luck to find Bishakha.
>>
>> The opportunity for the two seats appointed by movement organizations like
>> the chapters is broader.  Many more people are involved in identifying and
>> surfacing potential candidates, so it has the potential to cast a wider and
>> more thoughtful net.  And there is less constraint to meet specific
>> governance needs, which frees up the process to focus on the people and
>> perspectives that can have the most positive impact on our movement's
>> pursuit of the mission.
>>
>> -
>>
>
> This is well and good, but it gives the impression that the current three
> elected members of the board are somehow considered not representative of
> the movement, and that the opaque selection and appointment process for the
> "chapter" seats is somehow more representative of the movement.  It
> concerns me a lot that the 97% of active Wikimedians who are not chapter
> members seem to not be considered part of the movement.

In the 2011 community board election, less than 3400 "users" voted.[1]

In the 2012 chapter board election, 39 chapters consisting of more
than 4000 identified people will be voting.[2]

Unfortunately neither process captures a large percentage of the
active Wikimedian community.

1. see bottom of https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Board_elections/2011/Results/en

2. see "members" column of
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters#Existing_chapters

-- 
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Stuart West]

On Feb 1, 2012, at 2:17 PM, Risker wrote:

> it gives the impression that the current three
> elected members of the board are somehow considered not representative of
> the movement  It
> concerns me a lot that the 97% of active Wikimedians who are not chapter
> members seem to not be considered part of the movement.

Anne, my personal view is that elections capture the input of a certain subset 
of our community:  those editors who are fairly active and who are interested 
in governance issues.  That subset of our editors is an important part of our 
community.

Having seats appointed by movement organizations like the chapters offers a 
chance to involve of another subset of our community:  those who are interested 
enough in governance issues to get involved in the leadership / decision-making 
of movement organizations. That's also an important subset of our community.

But, to your point, neither of these two subsets alone nor the combination of 
the two fully represents our movement.  Many groups are excluded.  For example, 
the "silent majority" of 75,000+ active editors who haven't historically voted 
in elections. Or our 475 million readers. etc., etc., etc.

Governance and suffrage in an online community is really, really hard.  I don't 
think we have the perfect system.  Our current board structure was put in place 
less than 4 years ago.  The one thing I know is that it will change as we try 
new things to make it better.  I want us to continue improving it.  And I for 
one am open to absolutely any suggestion for how we can do that.

-s
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Risker]

On 1 February 2012 17:22, Thomas Dalton  wrote:

> On 1 February 2012 22:17, Risker  wrote:
> > This is well and good, but it gives the impression that the current three
> > elected members of the board are somehow considered not representative of
> > the movement, and that the opaque selection and appointment process for
> the
> > "chapter" seats is somehow more representative of the movement.  It
> > concerns me a lot that the 97% of active Wikimedians who are not chapter
> > members seem to not be considered part of the movement.
>
> I didn't get that impression at all.
>
> The board doesn't just need to be representative of the community. It
> also needs to be capable of running the WMF as well as possible. We
> need to balance those two goals. Having a couple of chapter-selected
> seats is a good way of doing that.
>
> _
>


In what way do chapter-selected seats improve the running of the WMF,
Thomas?  The Board has no say in who is being selected, and there is no
basis in fact to say that those appointed by the chapters are any more
effective or helpful in meeting the Board's goals or running the WMF than
would community-elected Wikimedians.

I would think that direct appointment of those with specific skill sets
would be how the board ensure it is "capable of running the WMF as well as
possible."

Risker/Anne
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Thomas Dalton]

On 1 February 2012 22:17, Risker  wrote:
> This is well and good, but it gives the impression that the current three
> elected members of the board are somehow considered not representative of
> the movement, and that the opaque selection and appointment process for the
> "chapter" seats is somehow more representative of the movement.  It
> concerns me a lot that the 97% of active Wikimedians who are not chapter
> members seem to not be considered part of the movement.

I didn't get that impression at all.

The board doesn't just need to be representative of the community. It
also needs to be capable of running the WMF as well as possible. We
need to balance those two goals. Having a couple of chapter-selected
seats is a good way of doing that.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Risker]

On 1 February 2012 16:44, Stuart West  wrote:

> I'll give my personal view on the question, and invite others on the board
> to jump in.  I think the difference between the specific expertise seats
> and the appointed seats is subtle but important.
>
> My sense is that the WMF Board specific expertise seats are more focused
> on board operations and governance.  so the Board might do a
> self-assessment and identify that it needs someone with financial/audit
> oversight experience to serve as Board Treasurer, and then go out and find
> it. That's me.  It's also reactive and designed to fill in the gaps.  So we
> as Board decided a few years ago that we lacked sufficient insight and
> perspective from outside North America and Europe, so we sought out and
> were incredibly luck to find Bishakha.
>
> The opportunity for the two seats appointed by movement organizations like
> the chapters is broader.  Many more people are involved in identifying and
> surfacing potential candidates, so it has the potential to cast a wider and
> more thoughtful net.  And there is less constraint to meet specific
> governance needs, which frees up the process to focus on the people and
> perspectives that can have the most positive impact on our movement's
> pursuit of the mission.
>
> -
>

This is well and good, but it gives the impression that the current three
elected members of the board are somehow considered not representative of
the movement, and that the opaque selection and appointment process for the
"chapter" seats is somehow more representative of the movement.  It
concerns me a lot that the 97% of active Wikimedians who are not chapter
members seem to not be considered part of the movement.

Risker/Anne
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Stuart West]

I'll give my personal view on the question, and invite others on the board to 
jump in.  I think the difference between the specific expertise seats and the 
appointed seats is subtle but important.

My sense is that the WMF Board specific expertise seats are more focused on 
board operations and governance.  so the Board might do a self-assessment and 
identify that it needs someone with financial/audit oversight experience to 
serve as Board Treasurer, and then go out and find it. That's me.  It's also 
reactive and designed to fill in the gaps.  So we as Board decided a few years 
ago that we lacked sufficient insight and perspective from outside North 
America and Europe, so we sought out and were incredibly luck to find Bishakha.

The opportunity for the two seats appointed by movement organizations like the 
chapters is broader.  Many more people are involved in identifying and 
surfacing potential candidates, so it has the potential to cast a wider and 
more thoughtful net.  And there is less constraint to meet specific governance 
needs, which frees up the process to focus on the people and perspectives that 
can have the most positive impact on our movement's pursuit of the mission.

-s


On Feb 1, 2012, at 1:12 PM, Benjamin Lees wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Stuart West  wrote:
>> The hope was to attract/identify Board candidates who could add a lot of 
>> value to the movement but who, for one reason or another, would NOT 
>> typically be candidates in election.  That might be because they aren't 
>> well-known in the editing community that decides elections.  Or as Thomas 
>> mentions that they wouldn't be interested in going through the sometimes 
>> grueling election process.
> 
> How is this different from the rationale for the expertise seats?
> 
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Benjamin Lees]

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 10:23 AM, Stuart West  wrote:
> The hope was to attract/identify Board candidates who could add a lot of 
> value to the movement but who, for one reason or another, would NOT typically 
> be candidates in election.  That might be because they aren't well-known in 
> the editing community that decides elections.  Or as Thomas mentions that 
> they wouldn't be interested in going through the sometimes grueling election 
> process.

How is this different from the rationale for the expertise seats?

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Thomas Morton]

>
> *if not all chapters participate, or if the "discussion" is dominated by a
> > few chapters, or if by some measure the Board determines that the
> selection
> > forwarded by the moderators does not sufficiently represent the Chapters,
> > is there any thought to refusing to certify under these circumstances?
> > *
>
>
> If only a handful of chapters participate in the discussion, there is no
> "consensus among chapters" and therefore we will have a vote.If not enough
> chapters vote in the determined time, we will prorogue the vote until they
> do... and only them we will tell the Board we have a result. We all know
> how to identify a consensus, don't worry.
>

I'm not sure you've answered the question being asked; which is - will the
current board be able to scrutineer the selection process and ultimately
veto the recommendation the moderators pass along?

He's not asking about how the moderators decision is made.

This is important because all elections of this form - particularly private
ones should be scrutineered.


>
> *Board members, however they are selected, represent the Wikimedia
> > Foundation and the whole "community" or movement. My question is - if the
> > 38 chapters represent only a small portion of the whole of Wikimedia...
> > *
>
>
> I'm sorry but last Chapters Seat Election had more participants than the
> Community seats election... if you want to compare, we should get rid of
> Community election seats, not the chapters one.
>

Umm; I recall there were more than 38 participants in the discussion and
overall process. ;) And one would imagine that individual chapter board
members would have a unified approach (based on their chapters decision)
meaning there are 38 opinions to consider.

However, this whole process is a bit confusing for me because it seems that
those with access to chapters wiki have the ability to discuss candidates.
And only limited information about those candidates can be passed to the
wider chapter.

Essentially, then, this is a chapter board member discussion. Fine, I have
nothing against my own chapters board members and I am sure they will act
fairly and with clarity. But it is hard to act on behalf of the chapter
when we can't even see the process, full candidate information and
discussion...

Tom
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[J Alexandr Ledbury-Romanov]

I am highly perplexed why we have a *public call for candidates* when the
rest of the process remains so private.

Alex



2012/2/1 Chessie 

> Finding people not well known to editors: great.
> Finding people shy of 'grueling' public election process: ok...
>
> How does either lead to hiding candidate names? not doing background
> checks?
>
> Not publishing what kinds of questions are asked?
>
>
> As others said, this feels very strange.
>
>
> On 2/1/12, Stuart West  wrote:
> > The hope was to attract/identify Board candidates who could add a lot of
> > value to the movement but who, for one reason or another, would NOT
> > typically be candidates in election.  That might be because they aren't
> > well-known in the editing community that decides elections.  Or as Thomas
> > mentions that they wouldn't be interested in going through the sometimes
> > grueling election process.
>
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Chessie]

Finding people not well known to editors: great.
Finding people shy of 'grueling' public election process: ok...

How does either lead to hiding candidate names? not doing background checks?  

Not publishing what kinds of questions are asked?


As others said, this feels very strange.


On 2/1/12, Stuart West  wrote:
> The hope was to attract/identify Board candidates who could add a lot of
> value to the movement but who, for one reason or another, would NOT
> typically be candidates in election.  That might be because they aren't
> well-known in the editing community that decides elections.  Or as Thomas
> mentions that they wouldn't be interested in going through the sometimes
> grueling election process.


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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Stuart West]

On Feb 1, 2012, at 7:47 AM, Nathan wrote:

> My question is - if the 38 chapters represent only a small portion of the 
> whole of Wikimedia...is it really appropriate for Chapters to continue to 
> have a role in filling Board seats?

I think this is a valuable discussion to have, and it ties in neatly to the 
movement roles discussions about recognition of other associations/entities in 
our movement.  I shared some thoughts on my blog a month ago and asked for 
comments:

http://wikistu.org/2012/01/rfc-geography-and-wikimedia/
(text reproduced below)

We will be discussing this at length in our board meeting starting this Friday. 
 I'd really appreciate some comments on this issue, preferably on the blog 
because of improved threading in comments. 

-s


> RfC: Geography and Wikimedia
> Posted on January 4, 2012
> 
> Ahead of our scheduled WMF Board meeting in early February, I’ve been 
> thinking through a really hard and thorny movement-wide issue. Last time I 
> was dealing with a similarly hard issue, I put some rough notes/questions up 
> here and asked for your thoughts and help thinking through the issue. I’d 
> like to try another Request for Comments with a related but bigger issue.
> 
> Let me set this up as a thought experiment. Imagine that we can all go back 
> to the beginning of our movement. Imagine that we have a clean slate and can 
> start fresh. But also imagine that we have the benefit of the past 10 years 
> of experience, and with it all the lessons we’ve learned about ourselves and 
> our strengths and weaknesses as a community.
> 
> Let’s say our objective is to define the basic structure of a movement that 
> will most effectively help our community pursue our vision over the next 100, 
> 200 or even 500 years. Long-term impact is the primary objective.
> 
> If we could start over, how would we organize our movement?  In particular 
> I’d love input on three questions:
> 
>   • Are current political/legal boundaries the best primary organization 
> model for our movement? Or instead would we choose to build things a 
> different way, say around each of our projects, or languages, or some of the 
> passions among our community (e.g. a GLAM Chapter), or other special 
> interests and topics (e.g. arbcom, comcom, translate-l)?
>   • Should we give special rights to certain kinds of movement entities 
> (e.g. special rights to pick board seats outside of elections, exclusive 
> access to things like the trademarks, preferred access to donor funds)?
>   • Are legal entities worth the effort on a large scale? Our current 
> chapters model is leading us to having a hundred or more legal entities 
> globally. Is this worth all the overhead involved? Or would informal 
> associations and affiliations be fine in many cases?
> Below are some notes that I’ve kept as I try to think through the issue. They 
> aren’t intended to be comprehensive. Feel free to review or ignore as you 
> think through and respond to the above questions.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -s
> 
> Background notes
> 
> The different kinds of affiliation in our movement:
> – Many editors/contributors have no organizational association. They work on 
> their own, editing articles and making contributions without a great deal of 
> interaction with others in the community.
> – We have many loose, informal affiliations. Talk pages provide a place for 
> editors with a shared interest in a particular article. WikiProjects bring 
> together editors into cross-article collaboration. Village pumps provide 
> another project-based way to build community. Other affiliations include 
> interest groups such as GLAM, projects like Wiki Loves Monuments, and the 
> many groups of volunteers brought together by mailing lists like comcom and 
> translate-l.
> – We have a global Wikimedia Foundation entrusted with the trademarks and 
> with the responsibility to operate the websites and technical/legal 
> infrastructure behind the projects.
> – Finally, we have country-based chapters which receive significant special 
> rights.
> 
> We started with geographic chapters in 2003. The model has developed so that 
> these geographic organizations now receive rights unique in our movement 
> including a) exclusive geographic right to use the trademark, b) preferred 
> access to donor funds from the annual fundraiser, and c) the right to appoint 
> two of the ten Trustees on the Board of the Wikimedia Foundation.
> 
> We’ve had one chapter grow into a large organization (Wikimedia Deutschland), 
> and few others hire small numbers of professional staff, and others in 
> varying degrees of development. A number of chapters appear to be defunct, 
> with minimal or no programmatic activity.
> 
> There has never been a clear definition of success for a geographic chapter. 
> I ask most chapter members and chapter leaders I meet what their 
> organizational objectives are and I get widely varying answers. Few say they 
> have a role representing o

Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

Nathan, Is REALLY frustrating when you spend days making a text with a lot
of links to relevant documents and people simply ignore and ask you again
the same thing that is already there. I have enough things to do, answer
things that has already a document to answer isn't one of them.

But let answer you again:

*if not all chapters participate, or if the "discussion" is dominated by a
> few chapters, or if by some measure the Board determines that the selection
> forwarded by the moderators does not sufficiently represent the Chapters,
> is there any thought to refusing to certify under these circumstances?
> *


If only a handful of chapters participate in the discussion, there is no
"consensus among chapters" and therefore we will have a vote.If not enough
chapters vote in the determined time, we will prorogue the vote until they
do... and only them we will tell the Board we have a result. We all know
how to identify a consensus, don't worry.

*Board members, however they are selected, represent the Wikimedia
> Foundation and the whole "community" or movement. My question is - if the
> 38 chapters represent only a small portion of the whole of Wikimedia...
> *


I'm sorry but last Chapters Seat Election had more participants than the
Community seats election... if you want to compare, we should get rid of
Community election seats, not the chapters one.

*Is it really appropriate for Chapters to continue to have a role in
> filling Board seats? This isn't really a process question, per se, so I
> understand if you (Beria) decline to weigh in directly.
> *


Change WMF bylaws and the way they select Board members, and you can get
rid of Chapters seats.
_
*Béria Lima*
(351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 1 February 2012 13:47, Nathan  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Béria Lima  wrote:
>
> >
> > *Is there some threshold for participation beneath which the current
> Board
> > > might refuse to certify the results? *
> >
>
>
>
> > I do really LOVE when you people ask questions that has already been
> > answered by a document, but let's quote again (again from
> >
> >
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Bylaws_amendments_and_board_structure
> > ):
> >
> >
> > * Chapter-selected members must meet the requirements of applicable state
> > or federal law for Board membership. In the event that a candidate is
> > selected who does not meet the requirements of Subsection (A) or other
> > requirements of these Bylaws, or of applicable state or federal law, the
> > Board will (i) not approve the selected candidate, (ii) declare a vacancy
> > on the Board, and (iii) request that the chapters select a new Trustee to
> > fill the resulting vacancy, subject to this section and to Section 6
> > below.*
> >
> >
> >
> I appreciate your always helpful tone. In this case, I didn't ask what
> would happen if someone not legally qualified to be a Board member was
> selected by the chapters. I asked a different question, linked a prior one
> - if not all chapters participate, or if the "discussion" is dominated by a
> few chapters, or if by some measure the Board determines that the selection
> forwarded by the moderators does not sufficiently represent the Chapters,
> is there any thought to refusing to certify under these circumstances?
>
>
>
> >
> > > *Are we really sure that the chapters represent enough Wikimedians to
> > > merit two seats on the Board selected in such an opaque manner?*
> > >
> >
> > We are representing *Chapters* here, not the community (always good to
> > remember) and yes, there is enough people in chapters to make that a
> > representative election.
> >
>
> Board members, however they are selected, represent the Wikimedia
> Foundation and the whole "community" or movement. My question is - if the
> 38 chapters represent only a small portion of the whole of Wikimedia, and
> their selections are being made in such a way (and concerns ridiculed, by
> the way, as the product of "process-lovers"), is it really appropriate for
> Chapters to continue to have a role in filling Board seats? This isn't
> really a process question, per se, so I understand if you (Beria) decline
> to weigh in directly.
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Nathan]

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Béria Lima  wrote:

>
> *Is there some threshold for participation beneath which the current Board
> > might refuse to certify the results? *
>



> I do really LOVE when you people ask questions that has already been
> answered by a document, but let's quote again (again from
>
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Bylaws_amendments_and_board_structure
> ):
>
>
> * Chapter-selected members must meet the requirements of applicable state
> or federal law for Board membership. In the event that a candidate is
> selected who does not meet the requirements of Subsection (A) or other
> requirements of these Bylaws, or of applicable state or federal law, the
> Board will (i) not approve the selected candidate, (ii) declare a vacancy
> on the Board, and (iii) request that the chapters select a new Trustee to
> fill the resulting vacancy, subject to this section and to Section 6
> below.*
>
>
>
I appreciate your always helpful tone. In this case, I didn't ask what
would happen if someone not legally qualified to be a Board member was
selected by the chapters. I asked a different question, linked a prior one
- if not all chapters participate, or if the "discussion" is dominated by a
few chapters, or if by some measure the Board determines that the selection
forwarded by the moderators does not sufficiently represent the Chapters,
is there any thought to refusing to certify under these circumstances?



>
> > *Are we really sure that the chapters represent enough Wikimedians to
> > merit two seats on the Board selected in such an opaque manner?*
> >
>
> We are representing *Chapters* here, not the community (always good to
> remember) and yes, there is enough people in chapters to make that a
> representative election.
>

Board members, however they are selected, represent the Wikimedia
Foundation and the whole "community" or movement. My question is - if the
38 chapters represent only a small portion of the whole of Wikimedia, and
their selections are being made in such a way (and concerns ridiculed, by
the way, as the product of "process-lovers"), is it really appropriate for
Chapters to continue to have a role in filling Board seats? This isn't
really a process question, per se, so I understand if you (Beria) decline
to weigh in directly.
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

Like I said Stuart, we didn't changed the process.
_
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*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
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construir esse sonho. *


On 1 February 2012 13:23, Stuart West  wrote:

> On Feb 1, 2012, at 4:12 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
>
> > Last time, the chapters decided to keep the process very confidential
> > in order to allow free and frank discussion of the candidates. It was
> > felt that it would be good to have confidential discussions, in
> > contrast to the public ones that are associated with the community
> > elected seats, because that might attract different candidates than
> > would stand for the community elected seats (ie. candidates that don't
> > want lots of discussion about every good and bad quality they have
> > happening in public - the selection process can involve a much greater
> > intrusion on privacy than actually serving on the board does).
>
> FWIW, as I think back to Board conversations in 2008 (it was my first
> meeting), Thomas's comments are quite close to Board's rationale in
> creating the chapter seats in 2008.
>
> The hope was to attract/identify Board candidates who could add a lot of
> value to the movement but who, for one reason or another, would NOT
> typically be candidates in election.  That might be because they aren't
> well-known in the editing community that decides elections.  Or as Thomas
> mentions that they wouldn't be interested in going through the sometimes
> grueling election process.
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

>
> *The board members are to be selected by completely unstructured
> discussion, with consensus judged by the moderators. The process even seems
> to allow for the discussion to reach its conclusion in person, with no
> permanent records, at the Chapters Meeting. If the discussion reaches no
> consensus, or the consensus determination of the moderators is challenged,
> a "vote" will be held - in public, on a wiki page.
> *


Before all - as I said before -  the vote will be held in a *private* wiki,
not a public one.

Yes, we do allow people to reach consensus first. Vote is only the last
resource. Why? Because that is how we do things in Wikimedia Projects. In a
community seat might be impossible, but in this case are only 38 opinions
(remember that aren't people we are discussing here, but chapters) and I do
believe that we can reach a consensus.

*Other than confidentiality, no guidance is provided to the chapters on how
> to select their preferred candidate - nor on which chapter representatives
> can participate in the discussion on the chapters-wiki. If any chapter
> member can participate, doesn't that unduly advantage native English
> speakers and their chapters? If only some, how are they to be selected?*
>

Any chapter person can participate in the discussion held in chapters wiki.
How the chapters select who (or how many people) will speak for them -
again - is up to them. I know that might sound scary to "process-lovers"
but is how we work on this.

*Is there some threshold for participation beneath which the current Board
> might refuse to certify the results? *


I do really LOVE when you people ask questions that has already been
answered by a document, but let's quote again (again from
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Bylaws_amendments_and_board_structure):


* Chapter-selected members must meet the requirements of applicable state
or federal law for Board membership. In the event that a candidate is
selected who does not meet the requirements of Subsection (A) or other
requirements of these Bylaws, or of applicable state or federal law, the
Board will (i) not approve the selected candidate, (ii) declare a vacancy
on the Board, and (iii) request that the chapters select a new Trustee to
fill the resulting vacancy, subject to this section and to Section 6 below.*



> *Are we really sure that the chapters represent enough Wikimedians to
> merit two seats on the Board selected in such an opaque manner?*
>

We are representing *Chapters* here, not the community (always good to
remember) and yes, there is enough people in chapters to make that a
representative election.
_
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livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 1 February 2012 12:14, Nathan  wrote:

> I'm interested in answers to the procedural questions, too.
>
> It's seems like a quixotic process, as laid out on the meta page. The board
> members are to be selected by completely unstructured discussion, with
> consensus judged by the moderators. The process even seems to allow for the
> discussion to reach its conclusion in person, with no permanent records, at
> the Chapters Meeting. If the discussion reaches no consensus, or the
> consensus determination of the moderators is challenged, a "vote" will be
> held - in public, on a wiki page.
>
> Other than confidentiality, no guidance is provided to the chapters on how
> to select their preferred candidate - nor on which chapter representatives
> can participate in the discussion on the chapters-wiki. If any chapter
> member can participate, doesn't that unduly advantage native English
> speakers and their chapters? If only some, how are they to be selected?
>
> Additionally, Beria Lima says that chapters-wiki is mirrored on meta - but
> the process page[1] refers to chapters-wiki as confidential, and says that
> discussion of candidates' real names should be restricted to that wiki so
> that only members can see it.
>
> This whole thing seems pretty ad hoc and amateurish for an organization
> that is trying to be more robust and modern about its practices. Is there a
> background check? Is there some threshold for participation beneath which
> the current Board might refuse to certify the results? Are we really sure
> that the chapters represent enough Wikimedians to merit two seats on the
> Board selected in such an opaque manner?
>
> [1]: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

>
> *Was it a conscious decision by the chapters to change that approach? I
> was under the impression that you had decided to stick with the same
> process we used last time.*
>

We didn't change the process, Thomas. Last time the Call for Candidates was
also public and in meta, and the timeline and process. All the voting (if
we get to that) will be held in chapters wiki (wich is private) and not in
meta.
_
*Béria Lima*
(351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 1 February 2012 10:12, Thomas Dalton  wrote:

> On 1 February 2012 03:43, Béria Lima  wrote:
> >> * Will the names of the candidates be published for the entire Wikimedia
> >> community to see?  *
> >
> >
> > The real names, obviously not. The usernames may be published - IF the
> > candidate has no problem with that.
>
> Last time, the chapters decided to keep the process very confidential
> in order to allow free and frank discussion of the candidates. It was
> felt that it would be good to have confidential discussions, in
> contrast to the public ones that are associated with the community
> elected seats, because that might attract different candidates than
> would stand for the community elected seats (ie. candidates that don't
> want lots of discussion about every good and bad quality they have
> happening in public - the selection process can involve a much greater
> intrusion on privacy than actually serving on the board does).
>
> Was it a conscious decision by the chapters to change that approach? I
> was under the impression that you had decided to stick with the same
> process we used last time.
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Stuart West]

On Feb 1, 2012, at 4:12 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote:

> Last time, the chapters decided to keep the process very confidential
> in order to allow free and frank discussion of the candidates. It was
> felt that it would be good to have confidential discussions, in
> contrast to the public ones that are associated with the community
> elected seats, because that might attract different candidates than
> would stand for the community elected seats (ie. candidates that don't
> want lots of discussion about every good and bad quality they have
> happening in public - the selection process can involve a much greater
> intrusion on privacy than actually serving on the board does).

FWIW, as I think back to Board conversations in 2008 (it was my first meeting), 
Thomas's comments are quite close to Board's rationale in creating the chapter 
seats in 2008.

The hope was to attract/identify Board candidates who could add a lot of value 
to the movement but who, for one reason or another, would NOT typically be 
candidates in election.  That might be because they aren't well-known in the 
editing community that decides elections.  Or as Thomas mentions that they 
wouldn't be interested in going through the sometimes grueling election process.
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

Hello, I will (try to) answer everyone - so I will send several mails in a
row... please stick with me during the process.

*Excellent; I am pleased to see that the chapters are becoming more
> transparent in this respect.  However, if the plan is to mirror the
> discussion on Meta, why not just have it there in the first place?*
>

Because not all the discussion will be in meta. Some parts are confidential
and will not be disclose in Meta. I know you people might start scream:
"CABAL!" but that is a chapters decision, not a community one. We do need
to give them a safe space to work and get a consensus. And some people
might feel better asking some questions in a private wiki.

*I assume that all candidates must identify with the WMF before their
> candidacy is accepted, is that correct?
> *


According with the meta page (
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats/2012/Process)
:

*All candidate statements will have to supply the following information: *

   1. *The name of the nominee*
   2. *The name of the nominating chapter (if applicable)*
   3. *A statement from the chapter in support of the nominee (if
   applicable)*
   4. *A statement from the nominee in support of themselves, accompanied
   by a short CV and confirming they are willing and eligible to take a seat
   on the WMF board. Any candidates with Chapters wiki accounts will have
   those accounts disabled for the duration of the selection process.*

So, no, they don't need to send their document to Phillipe.

* As well, will candidates who are chapter executive members be required to
> take a leave of absence or to resign from their executive position during
> their Board candidacy?
> *


Another question already answered in a document, this time in the
Resolution (
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Bylaws_amendments_and_board_structure):


*Chapter-selected Trustees must resign from any chapter-board, governance,
chapter-paid, or Foundation-paid position for the duration of their terms
as Trustees, but may continue to serve chapters in informal or advisory
capacities.*

*One more question, this time about who will actually be doing the voting.
>  Can you clarify exactly who will be voting in this selection process? Will
> it be one representative for each of the 38 chapters, or will more than one
> representative be participating?*
>

Who will vote? Everyone here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Chapters

Each chapter has a vote, and how they decide their candidates is up to
them. Some held a internal vote, some decide in General Assembly, some have
an internal discussion in ML... you would need to ask each one of the 38 to
know the exact process.
_
*Béria Lima*
(351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 1 February 2012 03:49, Risker  wrote:

> Thanks for your prompt responses, Beria.  I have a few follow-ups.
>
> On 31 January 2012 22:43, Béria Lima  wrote:
>
> > Hi Risker. let's go by question.
> >
> > *Why is the discussion happening on chapterswiki, instead of in an open
> > > place where all Wikimedians can at least read the discussion?
> > > *
> >
> >
> > Everthing that is in Chapters wiki is replicated in meta. All the links
> in
> > the Call for Candidates (CfC) are from meta. Everyone can read the
> > discussion. So far the only discussion in chapters wiki was the election
> > for moderators, and the review of the CfC wording. We are not trying to
> > exclude the community - by the contrary - we would be glad to have the
> > community involved in the process, not only with questions, but also as
> > candidates.
> >
>
> Excellent; I am pleased to see that the chapters are becoming more
> transparent in this respect.  However, if the plan is to mirror the
> discussion on Meta, why not just have it there in the first place?
>
>
>
> > *
> > *
> > >
> > > * Will the names of the candidates be published for the entire
> Wikimedia
> > > community to see?  *
> >
> >
> > The real names, obviously not. The usernames may be published - IF the
> > candidate has no problem with that.
> >
>
>
> I'm sorry, I have a problem with that.  All other candidates for Board
> seats must publicly disclose their real name in their candidate
> presentation (because the identities of Board members are a matter of
> public record, it is not possible to hold a position on the Board of
> Trustees anonymously or under a pseudonym).
>
> I assume that all candidates must identify with the WMF before their
> candidacy is accepted, is that correct?
>
> As well, will candidates who are chapter executive members be required to
> take a leave of absence or to resign from their executive position during
> their Board candidacy?
>
>
> >
> >
> > > *Will opinions from non-chapter members (who make up 97% of
> Wikimedians)
> > > be c

Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Nathan]

I'm interested in answers to the procedural questions, too.

It's seems like a quixotic process, as laid out on the meta page. The board
members are to be selected by completely unstructured discussion, with
consensus judged by the moderators. The process even seems to allow for the
discussion to reach its conclusion in person, with no permanent records, at
the Chapters Meeting. If the discussion reaches no consensus, or the
consensus determination of the moderators is challenged, a "vote" will be
held - in public, on a wiki page.

Other than confidentiality, no guidance is provided to the chapters on how
to select their preferred candidate - nor on which chapter representatives
can participate in the discussion on the chapters-wiki. If any chapter
member can participate, doesn't that unduly advantage native English
speakers and their chapters? If only some, how are they to be selected?

Additionally, Beria Lima says that chapters-wiki is mirrored on meta - but
the process page[1] refers to chapters-wiki as confidential, and says that
discussion of candidates' real names should be restricted to that wiki so
that only members can see it.

This whole thing seems pretty ad hoc and amateurish for an organization
that is trying to be more robust and modern about its practices. Is there a
background check? Is there some threshold for participation beneath which
the current Board might refuse to certify the results? Are we really sure
that the chapters represent enough Wikimedians to merit two seats on the
Board selected in such an opaque manner?

[1]: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Thomas Dalton]

On 1 February 2012 03:43, Béria Lima  wrote:
>> * Will the names of the candidates be published for the entire Wikimedia
>> community to see?  *
>
>
> The real names, obviously not. The usernames may be published - IF the
> candidate has no problem with that.

Last time, the chapters decided to keep the process very confidential
in order to allow free and frank discussion of the candidates. It was
felt that it would be good to have confidential discussions, in
contrast to the public ones that are associated with the community
elected seats, because that might attract different candidates than
would stand for the community elected seats (ie. candidates that don't
want lots of discussion about every good and bad quality they have
happening in public - the selection process can involve a much greater
intrusion on privacy than actually serving on the board does).

Was it a conscious decision by the chapters to change that approach? I
was under the impression that you had decided to stick with the same
process we used last time.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Milos Rancic]

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 04:28, Risker  wrote:
> Thanks for letting us all know about this, Beria.
>
> So...a few questions.
>
> Why is the discussion happening on chapterswiki, instead of in an open
> place where all Wikimedians can at least read the discussion?
>
> Will the names of the candidates be published for the entire Wikimedia
> community to see?  Will opinions from non-chapter members (who make up 97%
> of Wikimedians) be considered?

It's about cabal, obviously.

To be honest, I think that the process is broken, too, but that's the
deal between the chapters and there was not enough of will to change
it. Because, at the end, it produces decision, which is the goal of
the process.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

> Heh, indeed. Whether the candidates are public outside the chapters or
> not, if you are not ok with your real name being plastered all over
> the place (fame! infamy! occasional random emails!) then being on the
> board is probably not for you.
> 
> -- phoebe
> 

I would even say that for the chapter candidates (in distinction to the
community candidates, who nominate themselves using their account) BOTH the
real name and the WM account (if it exists) should be made public before
the nomination is accepted.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[phoebe ayers]

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Risker  wrote:
> Thanks for your prompt responses, Beria.  I have a few follow-ups.
>
> On 31 January 2012 22:43, Béria Lima  wrote:

>> >
>> > * Will the names of the candidates be published for the entire Wikimedia
>> > community to see?  *
>>
>>
>> The real names, obviously not. The usernames may be published - IF the
>> candidate has no problem with that.
>>
>
>
> I'm sorry, I have a problem with that.  All other candidates for Board
> seats must publicly disclose their real name in their candidate
> presentation (because the identities of Board members are a matter of
> public record, it is not possible to hold a position on the Board of
> Trustees anonymously or under a pseudonym).

Heh, indeed. Whether the candidates are public outside the chapters or
not, if you are not ok with your real name being plastered all over
the place (fame! infamy! occasional random emails!) then being on the
board is probably not for you.

-- phoebe

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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Risker]

Thanks for your prompt responses, Beria.  I have a few follow-ups.

On 31 January 2012 22:43, Béria Lima  wrote:

> Hi Risker. let's go by question.
>
> *Why is the discussion happening on chapterswiki, instead of in an open
> > place where all Wikimedians can at least read the discussion?
> > *
>
>
> Everthing that is in Chapters wiki is replicated in meta. All the links in
> the Call for Candidates (CfC) are from meta. Everyone can read the
> discussion. So far the only discussion in chapters wiki was the election
> for moderators, and the review of the CfC wording. We are not trying to
> exclude the community - by the contrary - we would be glad to have the
> community involved in the process, not only with questions, but also as
> candidates.
>

Excellent; I am pleased to see that the chapters are becoming more
transparent in this respect.  However, if the plan is to mirror the
discussion on Meta, why not just have it there in the first place?



> *
> *
> >
> > * Will the names of the candidates be published for the entire Wikimedia
> > community to see?  *
>
>
> The real names, obviously not. The usernames may be published - IF the
> candidate has no problem with that.
>


I'm sorry, I have a problem with that.  All other candidates for Board
seats must publicly disclose their real name in their candidate
presentation (because the identities of Board members are a matter of
public record, it is not possible to hold a position on the Board of
Trustees anonymously or under a pseudonym).

I assume that all candidates must identify with the WMF before their
candidacy is accepted, is that correct?

As well, will candidates who are chapter executive members be required to
take a leave of absence or to resign from their executive position during
their Board candidacy?


>
>
> > *Will opinions from non-chapter members (who make up 97% of Wikimedians)
> > be considered?*
> >
>
> With questions and suggestions, of course will. But with votes, No. There
> are a vote for elect the community members of the Board, that happened last
> year and will occur again next year. This vote is decided only by the
> chapters according with WMF bylaws itself. Quoting: "Be*ginning in July
> 2008, two Trustees will be selected by chapters in even-numbered
> years*"[1].
>
>
I am pleased to hear that questions and suggestions from the majority of
Wikimedians will be accepted.

One more question, this time about who will actually be doing the voting.  Can
you clarify exactly who will be voting in this selection process? Will it
be one representative for each of the 38 chapters, or will more than one
representative be participating?

Thanks again,

Risker/Anne
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

Hi Risker. let's go by question.

*Why is the discussion happening on chapterswiki, instead of in an open
> place where all Wikimedians can at least read the discussion?
> *


Everthing that is in Chapters wiki is replicated in meta. All the links in
the Call for Candidates (CfC) are from meta. Everyone can read the
discussion. So far the only discussion in chapters wiki was the election
for moderators, and the review of the CfC wording. We are not trying to
exclude the community - by the contrary - we would be glad to have the
community involved in the process, not only with questions, but also as
candidates.
*
*
>
> * Will the names of the candidates be published for the entire Wikimedia
> community to see?  *


The real names, obviously not. The usernames may be published - IF the
candidate has no problem with that.


> *Will opinions from non-chapter members (who make up 97% of Wikimedians)
> be considered?*
>

With questions and suggestions, of course will. But with votes, No. There
are a vote for elect the community members of the Board, that happened last
year and will occur again next year. This vote is decided only by the
chapters according with WMF bylaws itself. Quoting: "Be*ginning in July
2008, two Trustees will be selected by chapters in even-numbered years*"[1].


The result will of course be public as soon as we have one.

Thanks for your questions,

[1]:
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Bylaws_amendments_and_board_structure
_
*Béria Lima*
(351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 1 February 2012 01:28, Risker  wrote:

> Thanks for letting us all know about this, Beria.
>
> So...a few questions.
>
> Why is the discussion happening on chapterswiki, instead of in an open
> place where all Wikimedians can at least read the discussion?
>
> Will the names of the candidates be published for the entire Wikimedia
> community to see?  Will opinions from non-chapter members (who make up 97%
> of Wikimedians) be considered?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Risker/Anne
>
>
>
> On 31 January 2012 19:05, Béria Lima  wrote:
>
> > The Wikimedia chapters are seeking to appoint two candidates to sit on
> the
> > Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees for two years, starting 1 July
> > 2012. The two new members of the board will help to decide the future
> > direction of the world’s leading non-profit website. Wikimedia project
> are
> > constructed by hundreds of thousands of volunteers worldwide, supported
> by
> > a growing number of staff and an international network of chapters. Board
> > membership is unpaid.
> >
> > The chapters wish to appoint two excellent board members and believe this
> > can best be achieved by selecting from a large number of varied and
> skilled
> > candidates. Therefore, the chapters call for nominations by everyone who
> > believes they or someone they know would be suitable. The chapters ask
> that
> > this call for candidates be distributed as widely as possible through
> such
> > forums as mailing lists, village pumps, and blogs.
> >
> > The successful candidates will be committed to the Wikimedia mission and
> > willing and able to engage constructively with the stakeholders of the
> > movement, including the volunteers and the chapters that provide it with
> > essential support. The successful candidates will have:
> >
> >   - The ability to provide expertise to the board in its goal of
> >   implementing a coherent vision on how the projects’ communities, the
> >   foundation, the chapters, and other affiliated groups work together;
> >
> >
> >   - Sensitivity to complex issues surrounding the multiplicity of
> >   languages, cultures, and jurisdictions served by the foundation’s
> > projects;
> >
> >
> >   - Knowledge and understanding of the governance of international
> >   non-profit organizations, balancing autonomy and subsidiarity;
> >
> >
> >   - The ability to think strategically and to work both as part of a team
> >   and independently;
> >
> >
> >   - A good standard of written and oral English (fluency in additional
> >   language would be well regarded);
> >
> >
> >   - Sufficient time to devote to the role of board member, and the
> ability
> >   and willingness to travel.
> >
> > Increasing the geographical diversity of current board membership would
> be
> > an advantage.
> >
> > The selection process is set out
> > here:http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats
> >
> > Nominations must be sent to the moderator Béria Lima (Wikimedia Portugal)
> > and deputy moderators Milos Rancic (Wikimedia Serbia) and Mardetanha
> > (Wikimedia steward from Iran) by 23:59 UTC, 29 February. If you would
> like
> > to nominate yourself or someone else, please see the instructions here:
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats/20

Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Risker]

Thanks for letting us all know about this, Beria.

So...a few questions.

Why is the discussion happening on chapterswiki, instead of in an open
place where all Wikimedians can at least read the discussion?

Will the names of the candidates be published for the entire Wikimedia
community to see?  Will opinions from non-chapter members (who make up 97%
of Wikimedians) be considered?

Thanks,


Risker/Anne



On 31 January 2012 19:05, Béria Lima  wrote:

> The Wikimedia chapters are seeking to appoint two candidates to sit on the
> Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees for two years, starting 1 July
> 2012. The two new members of the board will help to decide the future
> direction of the world’s leading non-profit website. Wikimedia project are
> constructed by hundreds of thousands of volunteers worldwide, supported by
> a growing number of staff and an international network of chapters. Board
> membership is unpaid.
>
> The chapters wish to appoint two excellent board members and believe this
> can best be achieved by selecting from a large number of varied and skilled
> candidates. Therefore, the chapters call for nominations by everyone who
> believes they or someone they know would be suitable. The chapters ask that
> this call for candidates be distributed as widely as possible through such
> forums as mailing lists, village pumps, and blogs.
>
> The successful candidates will be committed to the Wikimedia mission and
> willing and able to engage constructively with the stakeholders of the
> movement, including the volunteers and the chapters that provide it with
> essential support. The successful candidates will have:
>
>   - The ability to provide expertise to the board in its goal of
>   implementing a coherent vision on how the projects’ communities, the
>   foundation, the chapters, and other affiliated groups work together;
>
>
>   - Sensitivity to complex issues surrounding the multiplicity of
>   languages, cultures, and jurisdictions served by the foundation’s
> projects;
>
>
>   - Knowledge and understanding of the governance of international
>   non-profit organizations, balancing autonomy and subsidiarity;
>
>
>   - The ability to think strategically and to work both as part of a team
>   and independently;
>
>
>   - A good standard of written and oral English (fluency in additional
>   language would be well regarded);
>
>
>   - Sufficient time to devote to the role of board member, and the ability
>   and willingness to travel.
>
> Increasing the geographical diversity of current board membership would be
> an advantage.
>
> The selection process is set out
> here:http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats
>
> Nominations must be sent to the moderator Béria Lima (Wikimedia Portugal)
> and deputy moderators Milos Rancic (Wikimedia Serbia) and Mardetanha
> (Wikimedia steward from Iran) by 23:59 UTC, 29 February. If you would like
> to nominate yourself or someone else, please see the instructions here:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats/2012/Nominate
>
> *Béria Lima*,
> Moderator
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[Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

The Wikimedia chapters are seeking to appoint two candidates to sit on the
Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees for two years, starting 1 July
2012. The two new members of the board will help to decide the future
direction of the world’s leading non-profit website. Wikimedia project are
constructed by hundreds of thousands of volunteers worldwide, supported by
a growing number of staff and an international network of chapters. Board
membership is unpaid.

The chapters wish to appoint two excellent board members and believe this
can best be achieved by selecting from a large number of varied and skilled
candidates. Therefore, the chapters call for nominations by everyone who
believes they or someone they know would be suitable. The chapters ask that
this call for candidates be distributed as widely as possible through such
forums as mailing lists, village pumps, and blogs.

The successful candidates will be committed to the Wikimedia mission and
willing and able to engage constructively with the stakeholders of the
movement, including the volunteers and the chapters that provide it with
essential support. The successful candidates will have:

   - The ability to provide expertise to the board in its goal of
   implementing a coherent vision on how the projects’ communities, the
   foundation, the chapters, and other affiliated groups work together;


   - Sensitivity to complex issues surrounding the multiplicity of
   languages, cultures, and jurisdictions served by the foundation’s projects;


   - Knowledge and understanding of the governance of international
   non-profit organizations, balancing autonomy and subsidiarity;


   - The ability to think strategically and to work both as part of a team
   and independently;


   - A good standard of written and oral English (fluency in additional
   language would be well regarded);


   - Sufficient time to devote to the role of board member, and the ability
   and willingness to travel.

Increasing the geographical diversity of current board membership would be
an advantage.

The selection process is set out
here:http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats

Nominations must be sent to the moderator Béria Lima (Wikimedia Portugal)
and deputy moderators Milos Rancic (Wikimedia Serbia) and Mardetanha
(Wikimedia steward from Iran) by 23:59 UTC, 29 February. If you would like
to nominate yourself or someone else, please see the instructions here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats/2012/Nominate

*Béria Lima*,
Moderator
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Re: [Foundation-l] Call for nominations: chapter-appointed seats on the WMF Board of Trustees

[Béria Lima]

Cross posting
_
*Béria Lima*
(351) 925 171 484

*Imagine um mundo onde é dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
livre acesso ao somatório de todo o conhecimento humano. Ajude-nos a
construir esse sonho. *


On 31 January 2012 22:05, Béria Lima  wrote:

> The Wikimedia chapters are seeking to appoint two candidates to sit on the
> Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees for two years, starting 1 July
> 2012. The two new members of the board will help to decide the future
> direction of the world’s leading non-profit website. Wikimedia project are
> constructed by hundreds of thousands of volunteers worldwide, supported by
> a growing number of staff and an international network of chapters. Board
> membership is unpaid.
>
> The chapters wish to appoint two excellent board members and believe this
> can best be achieved by selecting from a large number of varied and skilled
> candidates. Therefore, the chapters call for nominations by everyone who
> believes they or someone they know would be suitable. The chapters ask that
> this call for candidates be distributed as widely as possible through such
> forums as mailing lists, village pumps, and blogs.
>
> The successful candidates will be committed to the Wikimedia mission and
> willing and able to engage constructively with the stakeholders of the
> movement, including the volunteers and the chapters that provide it with
> essential support. The successful candidates will have:
>
>- The ability to provide expertise to the board in its goal of
>implementing a coherent vision on how the projects’ communities, the
>foundation, the chapters, and other affiliated groups work together;
>
>
>- Sensitivity to complex issues surrounding the multiplicity of
>languages, cultures, and jurisdictions served by the foundation’s projects;
>
>
>- Knowledge and understanding of the governance of international
>non-profit organizations, balancing autonomy and subsidiarity;
>
>
>- The ability to think strategically and to work both as part of a
>team and independently;
>
>
>- A good standard of written and oral English (fluency in additional
>language would be well regarded);
>
>
>- Sufficient time to devote to the role of board member, and the
>ability and willingness to travel.
>
> Increasing the geographical diversity of current board membership would be
> an advantage.
>
> The selection process is set out 
> here:http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats
>
> Nominations must be sent to the moderator Béria Lima (Wikimedia Portugal)
> and deputy moderators Milos Rancic (Wikimedia Serbia) and Mardetanha
> (Wikimedia steward from Iran) by 23:59 UTC, 29 February. If you would like
> to nominate yourself or someone else, please see the instructions here:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapter-selected_Board_seats/2012/Nominate
>
> *Béria Lima*,
> Moderator
>
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