Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Harel Cain]

Haifa, too, has a history of violence
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim_restaurant_suicide_bombing,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa_bus_37_suicide_bombing and others),
the years of the Second Intifada in the first half of this decade left
few places unscathed by terror and grief, for both people.

But really, folks, this is so much outside of what the conference is
all about. It is not about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and we
shouldn't (IMHO mustn't) make it into a political/ideological tour of
the conflict. If someone wants to use their visit of the region for
that purpose, they're welcome to do it before or after the conference.


Harel

On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Tim Starling  wrote:
> On 14/08/10 11:33, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
>> I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only
>> (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local
>> inhabitants and the conflict.
>> This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting
>> possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO).
>
> Yes, that was the point, but when I read up on Harel's suggestion of
> Bethlehem, I realised that it would fit the bill well enough. It has a
> recent history of violence: the IDF invaded it in 2002, in Operation
> Defensive Shield. Part of the town was annexed to Israel by the
> construction of the West Bank barrier. On the south side of the town
> is one of the West Bank's many long-term refugee camps, established in
> 1949.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Ray Saintonge]

Andrea Zanni wrote:
>> I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only
>> (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local
>> inhabitants and the conflict.
>> This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting
>> possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO).
>> 
> Maybe Neve Shalom (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neve_Shalom_%E2%80%93_W%C4%81%C4%A7at_as-Sal%C4%81m)
> could be a good (and peaceful) experience.
> I don't know Haifa, but maybe also there there are
> groups\location\associations worth a visit.
> Personally, I like very much the idea of a Wikimania explicitely aimed to a
> ''peaceful message'' (whatever this could mean).
> But still I don't want to force the WM Israel team to change the program, if
> this was not what they defined.
>   

If you need to say "whatever this could mean" about the peaceful message 
it's better to not make that an explicit message.  It would likely be 
seen by many as a peaceful message from an Israeli perspective, and that 
could too easily be seen as taking sides even if it isn't.

Any peaceful message should come from our actions, and not from some 
stated policy.

Ray



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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Tim Starling]

On 14/08/10 11:33, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote:
> I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only 
> (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local 
> inhabitants and the conflict.
> This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting 
> possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO).

Yes, that was the point, but when I read up on Harel's suggestion of
Bethlehem, I realised that it would fit the bill well enough. It has a
recent history of violence: the IDF invaded it in 2002, in Operation
Defensive Shield. Part of the town was annexed to Israel by the
construction of the West Bank barrier. On the south side of the town
is one of the West Bank's many long-term refugee camps, established in
1949.

-- Tim Starling


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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Andrea Zanni]

>
> I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only
> (i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local
> inhabitants and the conflict.
> This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting
> possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO).
>

Maybe Neve Shalom (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neve_Shalom_%E2%80%93_W%C4%81%C4%A7at_as-Sal%C4%81m)
could be a good (and peaceful) experience.
I don't know Haifa, but maybe also there there are
groups\location\associations worth a visit.
Personally, I like very much the idea of a Wikimania explicitely aimed to a
''peaceful message'' (whatever this could mean).
But still I don't want to force the WM Israel team to change the program, if
this was not what they defined.


Aubrey
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Harel Cain, 12/08/2010 07:13:
> Tim, I don't know how this has any direct bearing on the conference.
> 
> The conditions in the West Bank are not what anyone would wish them to
> be, including, of course, us. I could try to argue here that still,
> the average income there is higher than in most Arab countries and so
> on, but this is really beside the point. This conference is not about
> the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and its best solution.
> 
> We will in fact be offering day trips on the last day of the
> conference (August 7th). More information on our conference website.
> Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa don't really make for interesting enough tourist
> trips to warrant an organized tour to. 

I think that Tim's point was precisely to get to some non touristic-only 
(i.e. often unreal) destination, to understand better the life of local 
inhabitants and the conflict.
This is not part of Wikimania, obviously, but would be an interesting 
possibility (e.g. more than beach, IMHO).

Nemo

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Aphaia]

Slightly OT, in some parts, sorry in advance,

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Mariano Cecowski
 wrote:
>
> Osama, I'm afraid your view is very self-centric.
>
> We Southamericans have a really hard time getting into USA; and I'm sure many 
> couldn't go to that Wikimania because of visa problems. As many couldn't go 
> to Thailand because because of economic reasons. And some didn't go to Egypt 
> because of religious issues. There is always something that will prevent some 
> people to assist to a Wikimania; that's why we rotate the host!

I'd like to join Mariano and Brianna; that's why we rotate host cities
and should. I'm personally concern with visa availability, since I've
seen our potential good speakers hindered to attend in the last
minutes, but also I think it should remain one of considerations, not
the sole. Every country should have a chance to host which would make
the local attendance easier.

> I can't believe people complaining about getting the visa in their passports 
> that will later prevent them to visit an Arab country; 20 bucks and an hour 
> standing in line and you have a new one!! (unless you live in Cuba, or 
> Northern Korea).


Uh-oh, i think it depends. At least in Japan, it wouldn't go so easy
nor fast and it costs much higher. I suppose that if people complain,
they would have good reasons and that not every thing goes in a same
way in different countries.

> Please, let's concentrate on making life easier for those with problems who 
> *do* want to assist to Wikimania 2011; the rest is just wining, and trying to 
> take political advantage of the current situation.
>
> MarianoC.-
>
> --- El jue 12-ago-10, Osama Khalid  escribió:
>
>> De: Osama Khalid 
>> Asunto: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>> Para: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" 
>> Fecha: jueves, 12 de agosto de 2010, 8:17
>> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 03:59:38AM
>> -0700, Mariano Cecowski wrote:
>> > I beg to disagree; getting into United states is
>> anything but easy.
>>
>> Maybe it depends, but I assume it won't be much harder for
>> a European,
>> Asian or African to get one than a Saudi. Why are we
>> discussing this
>> anyway?
>>
>> > And is not that Israel won't give visas to potential
>> attendees; in
>> > this case is the home nation of the interested ones
>> that sets
>> > obstacles.
>>
>> That's not the issue I'm trying to address here. I'm saying
>> it's
>> difficult. Maybe Israel wants Arabs to be there (this is
>> out of topic,
>> but I'd assume that they surely don't like the fact that
>> they're being
>> disrespected for their actions). But what's important here
>> is, again,
>> that many, many people won't be able to come.
>>
>> > Additionally, the current political situation between
>> given
>> > countries should not affect the realization of this
>> apolitical,
>> > non-religious global conference that seeks worldwide
>> collaboration.
>>
>> It's not about what Wikimania is what it is not.
>>
>> --
>> Osama Khalid
>> English-to-Arabic translator and programmer.
>> http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com
>>
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>
>
>
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-- 
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Harel Cain]

I'd just like to repeat the fact that Israel willingly stamps a
separate insert page on request, so passports are not stamped if the
passport bearer's doesn't want it. In that case you have no reason to
"lose" it.
Same should hold for a visa (visitors from US, EU and other countries
don't require a visa), we're checking this out.


Harel

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Bence Damokos  wrote:
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Osama Khalid
> Date: 2010. augusztus 12. 14:02
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>
>
>> I can't believe people complaining about getting the visa in their
>> passports that will later prevent them to visit an Arab country; 20
>> bucks and an hour standing in line and you have a new one!! (unless
>> you live in Cuba, or Northern Korea).
>
> I dunno about this. Yaroslav was talking about losing the passport.
>
>
>
> If you can travel to Israel but then you are afraid of problems getting into
> a third country (that is not your home country and not Israel) than getting
> a new passport after you get back home is the obvious solution. (Obviously
> you have to calculate in the cost of the new passport – which is usually
> higher with "lost" passports than with expired ones – into your travel
> budget, but the fact that you can do this will boil this issue down to one
> of personal choice and financial standing. Travelling to third countries is
> also a personal choice, so obviously this extra cost shouldn't be seen as
> the organizers' or the Wikimania jury's fault in any way.)
>
> On an other note I believe this thread is fastly losing its merit: Wikimania
> will happen in Israel in 2011 and it will happen in some other part of the
> world in 2012. Let's stop bemoaning the decision and start gathering the
> people who want to go to Haifa (a beautiful city, indeed) – I am sure the
> organizers will do their utmost to solve any and all travel difficulties of
> the people who actually want to participate in the conference.
> The conference will only get better if we help achieve their goal of a
> diverse audience, instead of discouraging potential attendees by complaining
> even before any problems do surface.
>
> Best regards,
> Bence
>
>
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-- 
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Bence Damokos]

-Original Message- 
From: Osama Khalid
Date: 2010. augusztus 12. 14:02
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011


> I can't believe people complaining about getting the visa in their
> passports that will later prevent them to visit an Arab country; 20
> bucks and an hour standing in line and you have a new one!! (unless
> you live in Cuba, or Northern Korea).

I dunno about this. Yaroslav was talking about losing the passport.



If you can travel to Israel but then you are afraid of problems getting into 
a third country (that is not your home country and not Israel) than getting 
a new passport after you get back home is the obvious solution. (Obviously 
you have to calculate in the cost of the new passport – which is usually 
higher with "lost" passports than with expired ones – into your travel 
budget, but the fact that you can do this will boil this issue down to one 
of personal choice and financial standing. Travelling to third countries is 
also a personal choice, so obviously this extra cost shouldn't be seen as 
the organizers' or the Wikimania jury's fault in any way.)

On an other note I believe this thread is fastly losing its merit: Wikimania 
will happen in Israel in 2011 and it will happen in some other part of the 
world in 2012. Let's stop bemoaning the decision and start gathering the 
people who want to go to Haifa (a beautiful city, indeed) – I am sure the 
organizers will do their utmost to solve any and all travel difficulties of 
the people who actually want to participate in the conference.
The conference will only get better if we help achieve their goal of a 
diverse audience, instead of discouraging potential attendees by complaining 
even before any problems do surface.

Best regards,
Bence 


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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Osama Khalid]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 04:43:13AM -0700, Mariano Cecowski wrote:
> Osama, I'm afraid your view is very self-centric.

Maybe it isn't. Maybe it's also what the people at ar (and probably at
fa/id/ms) think.

> We Southamericans have a really hard time getting into USA; and I'm
> sure many couldn't go to that Wikimania because of visa problems.

Good to know, but it isn't about the US here and I don't think we
should be discussing this right now right here.

> many couldn't go to Thailand because because of economic
> reasons.

For that there is a scholarship. The economic reason isn't something
to take too seriously for one host because, as far I know, many of us
won't be able to go anywhere outside their country without the
scholarship.

> And some didn't go to Egypt because of religious
> issues.

Refusing to visit a place for religious reasons is personal-dependent.

> There is always something that will prevent some people to
> assist to a Wikimania; that's why we rotate the host!

Right, but it's only an issue if that's true for so many people for
meaningful reasons. When it was in Egypt I was told that half of the
attendees were Arabs. They *want* to come so they shouldn't be
ignored.

> I can't believe people complaining about getting the visa in their
> passports that will later prevent them to visit an Arab country; 20
> bucks and an hour standing in line and you have a new one!! (unless
> you live in Cuba, or Northern Korea).

I dunno about this. Yaroslav was talking about losing the passport.

-- 
Osama Khalid
English-to-Arabic translator and programmer.
http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Abbas Mahmoud]

Osama: exactly. Be sure to raise any issues early. Although it's still too 
early, i'm already keeping my eye on the Wikimania 2012 meta page and some bids 
have been made from Sydney, Stanford, and Barcelona/Andorra;-)

> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:46:33 +0300
> From: osa...@gnu.org
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> 
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 11:40:37AM +, Abbas Mahmoud wrote:
> > one thing we should all bear in mind is that there WAS a bidding
> > process - and that was the most suitable moment for everyone to
> > raise their voices and concerns by challenging the bidding teams
> > with whatever questions that we may have in mind.
> 
> True. That was a valid point I agreed with when I talked to some
> people at Wikimania Poland about this issue.
> 
> I wonder if we can do more to publicize the process and to get more
> opinions involved. The only thing I'm trying to do is to explain why
> Israel is not a good choice, why I cannot get involved and how we can
> avoid such a conversation in the coming Wikimanias.
> 
> -- 
> Osama Khalid
> English-to-Arabic translator and programmer.
> http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com
> 
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Osama Khalid]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 11:40:37AM +, Abbas Mahmoud wrote:
> one thing we should all bear in mind is that there WAS a bidding
> process - and that was the most suitable moment for everyone to
> raise their voices and concerns by challenging the bidding teams
> with whatever questions that we may have in mind.

True. That was a valid point I agreed with when I talked to some
people at Wikimania Poland about this issue.

I wonder if we can do more to publicize the process and to get more
opinions involved. The only thing I'm trying to do is to explain why
Israel is not a good choice, why I cannot get involved and how we can
avoid such a conversation in the coming Wikimanias.

-- 
Osama Khalid
English-to-Arabic translator and programmer.
http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Mariano Cecowski]

Osama, I'm afraid your view is very self-centric.

We Southamericans have a really hard time getting into USA; and I'm sure many 
couldn't go to that Wikimania because of visa problems. As many couldn't go to 
Thailand because because of economic reasons. And some didn't go to Egypt 
because of religious issues. There is always something that will prevent some 
people to assist to a Wikimania; that's why we rotate the host!

I can't believe people complaining about getting the visa in their passports 
that will later prevent them to visit an Arab country; 20 bucks and an hour 
standing in line and you have a new one!! (unless you live in Cuba, or Northern 
Korea).

Please, let's concentrate on making life easier for those with problems who 
*do* want to assist to Wikimania 2011; the rest is just wining, and trying to 
take political advantage of the current situation.

MarianoC.-

--- El jue 12-ago-10, Osama Khalid  escribió:

> De: Osama Khalid 
> Asunto: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> Para: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" 
> Fecha: jueves, 12 de agosto de 2010, 8:17
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 03:59:38AM
> -0700, Mariano Cecowski wrote:
> > I beg to disagree; getting into United states is
> anything but easy.
> 
> Maybe it depends, but I assume it won't be much harder for
> a European,
> Asian or African to get one than a Saudi. Why are we
> discussing this
> anyway?
> 
> > And is not that Israel won't give visas to potential
> attendees; in
> > this case is the home nation of the interested ones
> that sets
> > obstacles.
> 
> That's not the issue I'm trying to address here. I'm saying
> it's
> difficult. Maybe Israel wants Arabs to be there (this is
> out of topic,
> but I'd assume that they surely don't like the fact that
> they're being
> disrespected for their actions). But what's important here
> is, again,
> that many, many people won't be able to come.
> 
> > Additionally, the current political situation between
> given
> > countries should not affect the realization of this
> apolitical,
> > non-religious global conference that seeks worldwide
> collaboration.
> 
> It's not about what Wikimania is what it is not.
> 
> -- 
> Osama Khalid
> English-to-Arabic translator and programmer.
> http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com
> 
> ___
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> 


  

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

> I like many others would need a visa, my country has good diplomatic
> relations and a good standing with israel, but having that visa on my
> passport regardless of the stamp might create a problem for future
travel
> to
> not just me but anyone else. This would affect not just me
> but Europeans and Americans if they want to go to the say Dubai for
> example,
> they might have trouble with the same issues.
> 
> I am also concerned about being harassed or questioned unnecessarily for
> maybe previously travelling to these places as well.
> 
> I am interested in attend wikimania but the cost might be too much for
me
> or
> others like me.

UAE is no problem.

For travelling to Saudi Arabia, just get a new passport upon your return
home.

I would be much more concerned with the heat. 

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Abbas Mahmoud]

People are raising there worries about Wikimania being hosted in Israel (me 
included), but one thing we should all bear in mind is that there WAS a bidding 
process - and that was the most suitable moment for everyone to raise their 
voices and concerns by challenging the bidding teams with whatever questions 
that we may have in mind.

> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:17:37 +0300
> From: osa...@gnu.org
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> 
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 03:59:38AM -0700, Mariano Cecowski wrote:
> > I beg to disagree; getting into United states is anything but easy.
> 
> Maybe it depends, but I assume it won't be much harder for a European,
> Asian or African to get one than a Saudi. Why are we discussing this
> anyway?
> 
> > And is not that Israel won't give visas to potential attendees; in
> > this case is the home nation of the interested ones that sets
> > obstacles.
> 
> That's not the issue I'm trying to address here. I'm saying it's
> difficult. Maybe Israel wants Arabs to be there (this is out of topic,
> but I'd assume that they surely don't like the fact that they're being
> disrespected for their actions). But what's important here is, again,
> that many, many people won't be able to come.
> 
> > Additionally, the current political situation between given
> > countries should not affect the realization of this apolitical,
> > non-religious global conference that seeks worldwide collaboration.
> 
> It's not about what Wikimania is what it is not.
> 
> -- 
> Osama Khalid
> English-to-Arabic translator and programmer.
> http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com
> 
> ___
> foundation-l mailing list
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Osama Khalid]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 03:59:38AM -0700, Mariano Cecowski wrote:
> I beg to disagree; getting into United states is anything but easy.

Maybe it depends, but I assume it won't be much harder for a European,
Asian or African to get one than a Saudi. Why are we discussing this
anyway?

> And is not that Israel won't give visas to potential attendees; in
> this case is the home nation of the interested ones that sets
> obstacles.

That's not the issue I'm trying to address here. I'm saying it's
difficult. Maybe Israel wants Arabs to be there (this is out of topic,
but I'd assume that they surely don't like the fact that they're being
disrespected for their actions). But what's important here is, again,
that many, many people won't be able to come.

> Additionally, the current political situation between given
> countries should not affect the realization of this apolitical,
> non-religious global conference that seeks worldwide collaboration.

It's not about what Wikimania is what it is not.

-- 
Osama Khalid
English-to-Arabic translator and programmer.
http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[theo10011]

Well I want to attend Wikimania in Israel, but in all likelihood might not
be able to even after not coming from the middle-east specifically. I like
many others travel frequently to UAE and Saudi Arabia(rarely), as important
as Wikimania might be the idea of not travelling there for work, family etc.
would be a big problem.

I like many others would need a visa, my country has good diplomatic
relations and a good standing with israel, but having that visa on my
passport regardless of the stamp might create a problem for future travel to
not just me but anyone else. This would affect not just me
but Europeans and Americans if they want to go to the say Dubai for example,
they might have trouble with the same issues.

I am also concerned about being harassed or questioned unnecessarily for
maybe previously travelling to these places as well.

I am interested in attend wikimania but the cost might be too much for me or
others like me.



On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Osama Khalid  wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 01:31:46PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
> > Actually, the United States in the last decade has a very strict
> > visa policy, I'm not so sure if some of the people Osama is
> > referring to could so easily get in - this remains to be seen.
>
> In Saudi Arabia it's pretty much about the time needed to get a visa
> from the US, but the United States is generally 'more welcoming' than
> Europe (e.g. they usually give multiple, three-year visa, AFAIK).
>
> --
> Osama Khalid
> English-to-Arabic translator and programmer.
> http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Mariano Cecowski]

--- El jue 12-ago-10, Osama Khalid  escribió:
> Poland, Germany, Egypt, United States, Argentina and even
> Taiwan were easy for the vast majority of the Wikimedia community
I beg to disagree; getting into United states is anything but easy.
And is not that Israel won't give visas to potential attendees; in this case is 
the home nation of the interested ones that sets obstacles.

Additionally, the current political situation between given countries should 
not affect the realization of this apolitical, non-religious global conference 
that seeks worldwide collaboration. If anything, it should be taken as an 
integrating experience, such as it was for so many Wikimedians to be in Egypt, 
Taiwan, the Americas or Europe, getting to know people from around the globe.

Cheers,
MarianoC.-


  

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Osama Khalid]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 01:31:46PM +0300, Harel Cain wrote:
> Actually, the United States in the last decade has a very strict
> visa policy, I'm not so sure if some of the people Osama is
> referring to could so easily get in - this remains to be seen.

In Saudi Arabia it's pretty much about the time needed to get a visa
from the US, but the United States is generally 'more welcoming' than
Europe (e.g. they usually give multiple, three-year visa, AFAIK).

-- 
Osama Khalid
English-to-Arabic translator and programmer.
http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Andrea Zanni]

>
> My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an
> international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi
> Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to
> get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The
> fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make
> this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous
> for so many people.
>
> I can see why the Wikimedia Foundation may not be so interested in
> taking one side in any political/ethical debate outside its main
> mission. That's reasonable and understandable. But in my opinion the
> whole thing is about picking a place that is a 'good' host.
>

I sincerely  amdmit that I agree with this view: very likely, a bid for
Teheran, Ramallah or even Beijing would have had lots of critics, and
reasonable ones.

Nevertheless, alea iacta est, and I really appreciate the willingness of the
Wikimedia Israel team to help partecipation of Arab\Muslim citizens.
Somebody said that is better to focus on real people interested in going to
Haifa, and Harel too is right when he says that a ''bridge'' (as you, Osama)
to potential participants could be very helpful.
We have one year still to arrange initiatives (as a enhanced
streaming\virtual coverage of the event, with chats, skype calls and so on)
and succeed difficulties, so is better to try.

Aubrey
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Osama Khalid]

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 11:20:05AM +0100, David Gerard wrote:
> So are you suggesting we cancel it? This is staggeringly unlikely to
> happen. Or are you suggesting something else?

I'm not. I'm saying that we need to recognize that it wasn't a good
choice, and we should consider the social and political aspects of a
particular host and we need to make sure that never happens again.

I don't have any solution in mind for people who won't be able to
attend.

-- 
Osama Khalid
English-to-Arabic translator and programmer.
http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Harel Cain]

Actually, the United States in the last decade has a very strict visa
policy, I'm not so sure if some of the people Osama is referring to
could so easily get in - this remains to be seen.

Travel from Egypt or Jordan into Israel is cheap - how does that
compare with flying to Taiwan?

As I have already written perhaps a dozen times on three different
mailing lists, we have good connections to Israeli authorities and
will do our utmost to ease the entry of whoever wishes to attend.
Governments can make exceptions under special circumstances (for
example, Druze people from the Golan heights routinely cross the
Israeli-Syrian border). Reaching out to the Middle East is very high
on our priorities.

We cannot do anything, however, against such things as travel to
Israel being socially unacceptable or punishable in one's home
country, or against people calling for the boycott of the conference,
except for expressing our regret at these phenomena.

Really, please refer to my previous answers on wikimania-l and on this
list. I feel that there's nothing much more to add, this is becoming
repetitive.

Osama, if you are serious about this, please help us form the
connections and the working relations with institutions and
individuals in Arab countries who are sincerely interested in
attending Wikimania 2011. That help would be invaluable.



Harel Cain
Wikimania 2011 team



On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 1:20 PM, David Gerard  wrote:
> On 12 August 2010 11:10, Osama Khalid  wrote:
>
>> Poland, Germany, Egypt, United States, Argentina and even Taiwan were
>> easy for the vast majority of the Wikimedia community to come into and
>> I don't think anyone had serious issue like the one we, Muslims and
>> Arabs, are have here. Just to be clear, here are the projects the will
>> have issues in being there;
>
>
> So are you suggesting we cancel it? This is staggeringly unlikely to
> happen. Or are you suggesting something else?
>
>
> - d.
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[David Gerard]

On 12 August 2010 11:10, Osama Khalid  wrote:

> Poland, Germany, Egypt, United States, Argentina and even Taiwan were
> easy for the vast majority of the Wikimedia community to come into and
> I don't think anyone had serious issue like the one we, Muslims and
> Arabs, are have here. Just to be clear, here are the projects the will
> have issues in being there;


So are you suggesting we cancel it? This is staggeringly unlikely to
happen. Or are you suggesting something else?


- d.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Osama Khalid]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:49:15PM -0400, Nathan wrote:
> Countries like Egypt, Taiwan, the United States, Israel, etc.
> shouldn't be banned from hosting the Wikimedia movement because it
> may be difficult for some Wikimedians to attend.

Poland, Germany, Egypt, United States, Argentina and even Taiwan were
easy for the vast majority of the Wikimedia community to come into and
I don't think anyone had serious issue like the one we, Muslims and
Arabs, are have here. Just to be clear, here are the projects the will
have issues in being there;
ar.*.org
id.*.org
fa.*.org
ms.*.org
sw.*.org (not all users, but many of them)

> We shouldn't let "social considerations" (i.e. the decision to not
> recognize Israel as a nation) prevent us from locating Wikimania in
> the country of an active chapter with committed organizers.

Why not? It's as serious as the legal one. (I mean people think Israel
is doing very nasty things to innocent people e.g. preventing food and
medicines and killing thousands of citizens every now and then , and
for them to go there is to recognize the legitimacy of what it does,
and it may not be the best thing one can do!)

> People, the Middle East is more complex and multifaceted than BBC
> lets you think, come judge for yourself.

Harel, you are missing the point. It isn't about how Muslims/Arabs
within Israel get along. It's about the possibility of the rest of the
strategic region to be there.

-- 
Osama Khalid
English-to-Arabic translator and programmer.
http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

> We will in fact be offering day trips on the last day of the
> conference (August 7th). More information on our conference website.
> Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa don't really make for interesting enough tourist
> trips to warrant an organized tour to. I would suggest, as another
> possibility in the West Bank, to visit Bethlehem instead. It has much
> higher touristic value. We will be checking out options to have this
> included as a possible day trip. Thousands of tourists travel there
> every week - it's only about 5 miles south of Jerusalem...
> 
> 
> Harel

I have visited Bethlehem on my own on a couple of occasions, and I agree
that this is an interesting tourist destination, but as far as I understand
Israeli citizens are not allowed in (Zone A or smth), which may make the
things messy.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Harel Cain]

Tim, I don't know how this has any direct bearing on the conference.

The conditions in the West Bank are not what anyone would wish them to
be, including, of course, us. I could try to argue here that still,
the average income there is higher than in most Arab countries and so
on, but this is really beside the point. This conference is not about
the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and its best solution.

We will in fact be offering day trips on the last day of the
conference (August 7th). More information on our conference website.
Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa don't really make for interesting enough tourist
trips to warrant an organized tour to. I would suggest, as another
possibility in the West Bank, to visit Bethlehem instead. It has much
higher touristic value. We will be checking out options to have this
included as a possible day trip. Thousands of tourists travel there
every week - it's only about 5 miles south of Jerusalem...


Harel

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 5:22 AM, Tim Starling  wrote:
> On 12/08/10 01:09, Harel Cain wrote:
>> If someone
>> doesn't want to come to Israel, well, then, we can only express our regret
>> at his choice (which we think is misinformed). I wish they could all come
>> here and change their minds about Israeli reality.
>
> I'd like to think I have an open mind, and always look forward to
> having it changed. I've heard that conditions in the West Bank are
> pretty bad, although the Israeli government disputes this. Maybe the
> Wikimania team could organise a day trip to a nearby border town like
> Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa, to change our minds about this.
>
> -- Tim Starling
>
>
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-- 
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Keegan Peterzell]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:46 PM, Harel Cain  wrote:

> In Haifa and elsewhere in Israel, Arabs and Jews get along on a daily
> basis just fine, daily reality is stronger than everything. They meet
> at universities and workplaces and have friendly relationships - a
> natural matter, really.
>
> People, the Middle East is more complex and multifaceted than BBC lets
> you think, come judge for yourself.
>
>
> Harel


Oh, I know you're absolutely right, Harel.  I come from the American South,
and other Americans blur the racism line in their perception of reality
here.  I am certain that at the root of it everyone will be nice and
welcoming. We're discussing the relevant, non-native socio-political
concerns.  These shouldn't exist, anyone should be able to go to Haifa.
 Unfortunately, real life doesn't recognize circumstance :)

-- 
~Keegan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Harel Cain]

In Haifa and elsewhere in Israel, Arabs and Jews get along on a daily
basis just fine, daily reality is stronger than everything. They meet
at universities and workplaces and have friendly relationships - a
natural matter, really.

People, the Middle East is more complex and multifaceted than BBC lets
you think, come judge for yourself.


Harel

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Keegan Peterzell  wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Nathan  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Osama Khalid  wrote:
>> > My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an
>> > international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi
>> > Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to
>> > get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The
>> > fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make
>> > this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous
>> > for so many people.
>> >
>>
>> Several countries have had successful Wikimanias despite fraught
>> circumstances, like travel restrictions or geopolitical controversies.
>> Countries like Egypt, Taiwan, the United States, Israel, etc.
>> shouldn't be banned from hosting the Wikimedia movement because it may
>> be difficult for some Wikimedians to attend. No matter where it goes,
>> some people will have a hard time getting there. It's just an
>> inescapable fact. We shouldn't let "social considerations" (i.e. the
>> decision to not recognize Israel as a nation) prevent us from locating
>> Wikimania in the country of an active chapter with committed
>> organizers.
>>
>> Nathan
>>
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>
> Hm, Nathan, this is a vast mis-characterization and comparison of other
> countries' political circumstances and Israel/Muslim issues.  Taiwan might
> come slightly close but its political/socio-economic ramifications are
> different.  I would hardly characterize the predicament both Jews and
> Muslims are in as a "social consideration".  That's like comparing gay
> marriage to wearing a hat indoors :)
>
> --
> ~Keegan
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Keegan Peterzell]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Nathan  wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Osama Khalid  wrote:
> > My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an
> > international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi
> > Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to
> > get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The
> > fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make
> > this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous
> > for so many people.
> >
>
> Several countries have had successful Wikimanias despite fraught
> circumstances, like travel restrictions or geopolitical controversies.
> Countries like Egypt, Taiwan, the United States, Israel, etc.
> shouldn't be banned from hosting the Wikimedia movement because it may
> be difficult for some Wikimedians to attend. No matter where it goes,
> some people will have a hard time getting there. It's just an
> inescapable fact. We shouldn't let "social considerations" (i.e. the
> decision to not recognize Israel as a nation) prevent us from locating
> Wikimania in the country of an active chapter with committed
> organizers.
>
> Nathan
>
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Hm, Nathan, this is a vast mis-characterization and comparison of other
countries' political circumstances and Israel/Muslim issues.  Taiwan might
come slightly close but its political/socio-economic ramifications are
different.  I would hardly characterize the predicament both Jews and
Muslims are in as a "social consideration".  That's like comparing gay
marriage to wearing a hat indoors :)

-- 
~Keegan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Nathan]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Osama Khalid  wrote:
> My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an
> international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi
> Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to
> get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The
> fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make
> this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous
> for so many people.
>

Several countries have had successful Wikimanias despite fraught
circumstances, like travel restrictions or geopolitical controversies.
Countries like Egypt, Taiwan, the United States, Israel, etc.
shouldn't be banned from hosting the Wikimedia movement because it may
be difficult for some Wikimedians to attend. No matter where it goes,
some people will have a hard time getting there. It's just an
inescapable fact. We shouldn't let "social considerations" (i.e. the
decision to not recognize Israel as a nation) prevent us from locating
Wikimania in the country of an active chapter with committed
organizers.

Nathan

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Casey Brown]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 6:00 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo)
 wrote:
> Mathias Schindler, 11/08/2010 23:39:
>> a) is there anyone who wishes to participate but can't?
>> b) how do we find him/her in time to remove any obstacle as far as
>> humanly possible?
>
> A centralnotice to ar wikis and other wikis to selected IPs? (Does GeoIP
> work?)

Not at the moment, but Tomasz and Ryan at the Foundation are working
on getting this working. :-)

-- 
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Tim Starling]

On 12/08/10 01:09, Harel Cain wrote:
> If someone
> doesn't want to come to Israel, well, then, we can only express our regret
> at his choice (which we think is misinformed). I wish they could all come
> here and change their minds about Israeli reality.

I'd like to think I have an open mind, and always look forward to
having it changed. I've heard that conditions in the West Bank are
pretty bad, although the Israeli government disputes this. Maybe the
Wikimania team could organise a day trip to a nearby border town like
Baqa or Nazlat 'Isa, to change our minds about this.

-- Tim Starling


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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Osama Khalid]

My opinion is simple. Israel is not a good place to have such an
international event as Wikimania. I wouldn't vote for Israel, Saudi
Arabia, Iran, UAE and other countries that are hard for many people to
get into. Having such a conversation isn't the point of Wikimania. The
fact that a team is amazingly active shouldn't be a reason to make
this annual, exciting and useful meeting so complicated and dangerous
for so many people.

I can see why the Wikimedia Foundation may not be so interested in
taking one side in any political/ethical debate outside its main
mission. That's reasonable and understandable. But in my opinion the
whole thing is about picking a place that is a 'good' host.

Whether we can do something to solve the major issues of Wikimania
2011 or not, we should seriously think of adding a standard for
Wikimania hosts: that they need to be generally easily reachable for
the vast majority of the Wikimedia community.

Poland was great. I loved it. I mean I really loved having meetings in
such 'peaceful' countries without such debates. Why not? There are
many of them.

[Historically, the part below was written before the one that's above,
something you may feel and notice! :)]

> This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never
> take an air flight - should we also complain that they do not have
> an opportunity to travel to Wikimania which is on a different
> continent?

That does not make any sense. Many people cannot, legally and
socially, go to Israel and that's a fact not merely an opinion or a
(legitimate and reasonable) choice.

> Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit
> Israel. Also, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no
> problem. Algeria I would need to check.

I dunno about Turkey, but no, it's impossible for people from the
other countries to visit Israel for social reasons and these reasons
cannot be ignored.

> it ultimately is a personal decision of whether or not a person
> wants to go.

Sure, it *is* your personal decision to make yourself at risk of
serious consequences. Read below.

> there is no way to get a visa on a separate paper, even if you get a
> stamp from immigration separately that visa in all likelihood is
> going to be there.

That, simply, changes everything.

> As explained on http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas, there
> are various ways to attain a visa entry to Israel even if you live
> in a country with no Israeli embassies.

The page doesn't say anything about Visas on a blank paper, but only
the stamps. Also "Passport stamping" talks about "those countries may
also search for Jordanian/Egyptian exit stamps from land borders with
Israel".

-- 
Osama Khalid
English-to-Arabic translator and programmer.
http://osamak.wordpress.com | http://tinyogg.com

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Mathias Schindler, 11/08/2010 23:39:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Moushira Elamrawy  
> wrote:
> 
>>> This is very constructive Mathias, however I prefer if we eliminate any 
>>> judgmental tone towards governments or societies or persons.
> 
> Agreed, we can leave that up to someone else. So back to the issue:
> 
> a) is there anyone who wishes to participate but can't?
> b) how do we find him/her in time to remove any obstacle as far as
> humanly possible?

A centralnotice to ar wikis and other wikis to selected IPs? (Does GeoIP 
work?)

Nemo

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[wiki-list]

David Gerard wrote:
> On 11 August 2010 19:27,   wrote:
> 
>> One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not?
> 
> 
> I suggest ignoring the troll henceforth - this poster has only ever
> joined threads on this list in order to try to derail them.
> 
> 

Ticket booked? Now if I were trolling I'd be advising Ahmadinejad or 
Assad to have a bunch of people applying for visas and turning up at the 
airport or at the Jordanian border. When is the date again?




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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Mathias Schindler]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Moushira Elamrawy  wrote:

>> This is very constructive Mathias, however I prefer if we eliminate any 
>> judgmental tone towards governments or societies or persons.

Agreed, we can leave that up to someone else. So back to the issue:

a) is there anyone who wishes to participate but can't?
b) how do we find him/her in time to remove any obstacle as far as
humanly possible?

Mathias

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Moushira Elamrawy]

On 8/12/10, Mathias Schindler  wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Abbas Mahmoud  wrote:
>> Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country
>> X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the
>> Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper.  Since the
>> country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to
>> Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country
>> X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if
>> sticked on a passport, and not a piece of paper?
>
> Wouldn't it be more productive to stop talking about X and see if
> there are actual Wikimedians out there who wish to take part in the
> 2011 Wikimania but can't because of their local oppressive government
> and their laws and regulations?
>
> This is very constructive Mathias, however I prefer if we eliminate any 
> judgmental tone towards governments or societies or persons. The issue is 
> quite complicated, complex and extremely relative. Accusing some governments 
> of being oppressive opens the door to counter accusation against Israel and 
> we will end up in an unpleasant loop.

Even within Arab nations who have direct flights to Israel, the
decision to attend has its own considerations, which makes this issue
a complete relative and personal decision.
Thanks for understanding.

M
>

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[David Gerard]

On 11 August 2010 19:27,   wrote:

> One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not?


I suggest ignoring the troll henceforth - this poster has only ever
joined threads on this list in order to try to derail them.


- d.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Mathias Schindler]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Abbas Mahmoud  wrote:
> Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, 
> from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the 
> Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper.  Since the country 
> where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from 
> his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him 
> passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a 
> passport, and not a piece of paper?

Wouldn't it be more productive to stop talking about X and see if
there are actual Wikimedians out there who wish to take part in the
2011 Wikimania but can't because of their local oppressive government
and their laws and regulations?

Mathias

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[wiki-list]

Birgitte SB wrote:
> 
> --- On Wed, 8/11/10, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk
>  wrote:
> 
>> OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic 
>> boycott of Israel, of course one is at liberty to break or not
>> participate in such, just like those who turned up at Sun City. 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid
>> 
>> One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not?
>> 
> 
> There seem to regularly be similar issues.
> 
> Boston  there was people from some countries who could not get visas
> - People have suggested Wikmania never be held in US because not
> everyone would be allowed to enter
> 
> Taipei   there were diffculties for some PRC residents.
> 
> Alexandria  there were boycotts/ethical issues over the executions of
> LBGT Egytians - People suggested Wikimania never be held in a country
> where LBGT folks are persecuted

As I said one has to decide where you stand on issues of persecution. 
Which I guess comes down to whether or not you consider the persecution 
to be such that one ought to deny oneself a bit of pleasure. It is a 
difficult decision for sure, one that I agonize over whenever I have to 
  forgo an After Eight Mint:
http://www.babymilkaction.org/pages/boycott.html

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Harel Cain]

As explained on http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas, there
are various ways to attain a visa entry to Israel even if you live in
a country with no Israeli embassies.
Further to that, there are actually a lot of prominent countries from
which no visa is needed to enter Israel:
http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IsraelVisaPolicy.PNG

I really think that theoretical discussions on contrived scenarios on
how to enter Israel are rather inane and do not further the conference
in any way.
We can and will offer specific assistance to people with specific,
concrete difficulties, working with Israeli authorities to achieve the
special exemptions needed for people who actually want to attend the
conference but live in a place that makes it difficult for them to do
so.

Millions of tourists from dozens of counties enter Israel every year
safely and smoothly. Flying to Israel is even considered especially
safe, because of effective security procedures (as opposed to
"security theater").

See y'all in Haifa!


Harel Cain
Wikimania 2011 team



On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Thomas Dalton  wrote:
> On 11 August 2010 19:54, Abbas Mahmoud  wrote:
>> Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country 
>> X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the 
>> Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper.  Since the 
>> country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to 
>> Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X 
>> bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on 
>> a passport, and not a piece of paper?
>
> Why would the embassy give someone a visa in a way they couldn't
> actually use? It would be pointless. Since embassies do hand out visas
> in that manner, we can safely assume airlines accept them.
>
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-- 
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Thomas Dalton]

On 11 August 2010 19:54, Abbas Mahmoud  wrote:
> Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, 
> from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the 
> Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper.  Since the country 
> where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from 
> his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him 
> passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a 
> passport, and not a piece of paper?

Why would the embassy give someone a visa in a way they couldn't
actually use? It would be pointless. Since embassies do hand out visas
in that manner, we can safely assume airlines accept them.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:54:00 +, Abbas Mahmoud 
wrote:
> Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in
country
> X, from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in
the
> Middle east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper.  Since the
> country where he works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels
to
> Israel from his homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in
country
> X bar him passage due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if
sticked
> on a passport, and not a piece of paper?
> 

No, I do not think this is a problem.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Birgitte SB]

--- On Wed, 8/11/10, wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk  
wrote:

> From: wiki-l...@phizz.demon.co.uk 
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" 
> Date: Wednesday, August 11, 2010, 1:27 PM
> Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:
> >> Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
> >>
> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
> >> ___
> > 
> > This is bullshit. There are always people who for
> instance never take an
> > air flight - should we also complain that they do not
> have an opportunity
> > to travel to Wikimania which is on a different
> continent?
> > 
> 
> OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic
> boycott of Israel, 
> of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in
> such, just 
> like those who turned up at Sun City.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid
> 
> One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one
> not?
> 

There seem to regularly be similar issues.

Boston  there was people from some countries who could not get visas - People 
have suggested Wikmania never be held in US because not everyone would be 
allowed to enter

Taipei   there were diffculties for some PRC residents.

Alexandria  there were boycotts/ethical issues over the executions of LBGT 
Egytians - People suggested Wikimania never be held in a country where LBGT 
folks are persecuted 

These issues are not really good arguments for never having Wikimania in 
certain countries.  They are good arguments for rotating Wikimania amoung a 
large variety of different sorts of countries.

Birgitte SB




  


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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Abbas Mahmoud]

Yaroslav: X has no problem with Israel, there's even an embassy in country X, 
from which he applied the visa, but since he is on a work permit in the Middle 
east, the embassy sticks the visa on another paper.  Since the country where he 
works from isnt in good terms with Israel, he travels to Israel from his 
homecountry X. Wouldn't the immigration officer in country X bar him passage 
due to the fact that a visa is only recognised if sticked on a passport, and 
not a piece of paper?

> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:37:43 +0400
> From: pute...@mccme.ru
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> 
> 
> On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:34:12 +, Abbas Mahmoud 
> wrote:
> > Assess the following scenario:
> > 
> > If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for
> an
> > Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy
> > stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to
> the
> > airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my
> country
> > X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think
> > that officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my
> passport?
> > Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa
> > hasn't been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)? 
> > 
> 
> I am not sure about your scenario. If X does not recognize Israel
> obviously you can not fly from X to Israel. If Emirates do recognize
> Israel, you can fly from Dubai to Tel-Aviv (Haifa does not have the
> airport) and back. Having two Emirates stamps and nothing in between is a
> serious problem as far as X is concerned, and I believe it can only be
> solved by losing a passport in Dubai prior to traveling to X.
> 
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
> 
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:34:12 +, Abbas Mahmoud 
wrote:
> Assess the following scenario:
> 
> If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for
an
> Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy
> stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to
the
> airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my
country
> X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think
> that officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my
passport?
> Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa
> hasn't been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)? 
> 

I am not sure about your scenario. If X does not recognize Israel
obviously you can not fly from X to Israel. If Emirates do recognize
Israel, you can fly from Dubai to Tel-Aviv (Haifa does not have the
airport) and back. Having two Emirates stamps and nothing in between is a
serious problem as far as X is concerned, and I believe it can only be
solved by losing a passport in Dubai prior to traveling to X.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[theo10011]

Not to mention that the visa itself has to be on the passport and remain
there, no matter where the stamp goes.

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:04 AM, Abbas Mahmoud wrote:

> Assess the following scenario:
>
> If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an
> Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy
> stamps my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the
> airport. For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country
> X need to scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that
> officer will let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport?
> Doesn't he have the right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't
> been stamped on a bonafide document(i.e. The passport)?
>
> > To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:11:35 +0400
> > From: pute...@mccme.ru
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> >
> >
> > > I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in
> > > mid-eastern
> > > countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I
> would
> > > also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the
> > Visa
> > > have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about
> > > two separate things?
> > >
> >
> > In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a
> > passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page
> > (technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid
> them
> > having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries
> > which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think
> > it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry.
> >
> > It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country
> > A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following.
> To
> > travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli
> > visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a
> > passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new
> > passport or a return certificate.
> >
> > To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
> > ___
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> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[theo10011]

You are leading this into an ideological debate whoever you are, this is for
people interested in attending wikimania getting to attend wikimania-thats
it. whatever your beliefs are this is not the forum for it.

Troll elsewhere.

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:57 PM,  wrote:

> Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:
> >> Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
> >>
> >
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
> >> ___
> >
> > This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
> > air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
> > to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?
> >
>
> OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel,
> of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just
> like those who turned up at Sun City.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid
>
> One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not?
>
> ___
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Abbas Mahmoud]

Assess the following scenario:

If say, i'm in country X planning to go to Israel. And, i go apply for an 
Israeli visa; but since i'm working in say, Dubai, the Israeli embassy stamps 
my visa in a separate paper. I book my ticket to Haifa and go to the airport. 
For me to board the airline, the airport authorities in my country X need to 
scrutinise my documents at the immigration desk. Do you think that officer will 
let me through if the visa isn't stamped on my passport? Doesn't he have the 
right to deny me passage on grounds that the visa hasn't been stamped on a 
bonafide document(i.e. The passport)? 

> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:11:35 +0400
> From: pute...@mccme.ru
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> 
> 
> > I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in
> > mid-eastern
> > countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would
> > also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the
> Visa
> > have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about
> > two separate things?
> > 
> 
> In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a
> passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page
> (technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid them
> having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries
> which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think
> it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry.
> 
> It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country
> A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following. To
> travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli
> visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a
> passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new
> passport or a return certificate. 
> 
> To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different.
> 
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
> 
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[theo10011]

Again the thing is the difference between the two according to the visa
stamping info on the website, most of these countries- actually a lot of
countries are going to need a visa to enter israel regardless of their
relations. there is no way to get a visa on a separate paper, even if you
get a stamp from immigration separately that visa in all likelihood is going
to be there.



On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:53 PM, theo10011  wrote:

> Its from 2006 and its still the first time I ever read of such a boycott. I
> agree with Yaroslav, its irrelevant.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:
>
>>
>> > Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
>> >
>>
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
>> >
>> > ___
>>
>> This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
>> air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
>> to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Yaroslav
>>
>> ___
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>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[wiki-list]

Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:
>> Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
>>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
>> ___
> 
> This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
> air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
> to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?
> 

OH I was just pointing out that there is an academic boycott of Israel, 
of course one is at liberty to break or not participate in such, just 
like those who turned up at Sun City.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artists_United_Against_Apartheid

One has to decide where one stands on such issues, does one not?

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[theo10011]

Its from 2006 and its still the first time I ever read of such a boycott. I
agree with Yaroslav, its irrelevant.


On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:

>
> > Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
> >
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
> >
> > ___
>
> This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
> air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
> to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> ___
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Casey Brown]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Moushira Elamrawy  wrote:
> (maybe the local team knows can provide a full and clear
> list as well as confirmation on having a stamp on a separate paper
> without restrictions?).

They do have this page on Wikimania2011wiki already:


-- 
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Moushira Elamrawy]

On 8/11/10, Yaroslav M. Blanter  wrote:
>
>> I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
>> to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
>> remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
>> an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
>> includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
>> destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
>> those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
>> ethical levels.
>
> Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also,
> Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I
> would need to check.
>
> The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli
> stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe
> this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure
> about Irak for instance):
> Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen,
> Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel
> break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution.
>
> There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli
> stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be
> compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and
> Indonesia.
>
You are right about the need to check on the list update. For instance
as far as I know, Bahrain has no problem with Israeli stamped passport
or nationals. (maybe the local team knows can provide a full and clear
list as well as confirmation on having a stamp on a separate paper
without restrictions?).

thanks
M

>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

> Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation
> 
> ___

This is bullshit. There are always people who for instance never take an
air flight - should we also complain that they do not have an opportunity
to travel to Wikimania which is on a different continent?

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

> I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in
> mid-eastern
> countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would
> also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the
Visa
> have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about
> two separate things?
> 

In the past, sometimes Israeli entry authorities would agree to stamp a
passport of a citizen of a visa-free country on a separate page
(technically, on a page that does not belong to the passport) to avoid them
having Israeli stamps. I am not sure about the citizens of the countries
which do require visa - I think visa is always on a passport, but I think
it is easier for the organizers to inquire at the Foreign Ministry.

It this is indeed the case, the only way I see for a citizen of a country
A which does not recognize Israel to travel to Israel is the following. To
travel first to a country B which does recognize Israel, get in B Israeli
visa (which is anyway impossible to get in A), travel to Israel, lose a
passport while back in B, apply to the embassy of A in B and get a new
passport or a return certificate. 

To me personally it sounds too complicated, but cases could be different.

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[wiki-list]

Nathan wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Abbas Mahmoud  wrote:
>> Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare 
>> step into Israeli soil.
>>
> 
> That's a pretty broad generalization -  hopefully the organizing team
> will still make every effort to include as many people as possible,
> just in case you aren't 100% correct.
> 

Isn't there supposed to be a boycott?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jun/20/internationaleducationnews.highereducation

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[theo10011]

I absolutely agree that this is a complicated matter and would differ from
country to country. the thing is the foundations goal of expanding in the
"global south" does place some priority on the middle east, it would be
rather unfortunate that most of the people might not be able to make it to
the conference. I also understand that the organizers are making a great
effort to be as inclusive as possible, but I think we have to realize its
going to be what its going to be. Many people might not be able to attend
this year. Its not only an issue for the resident but also for people who
travel or work in countries which might discriminate against
an Israeli stamp on their passport.

I am curious if the Israeli embassies are going to be lenient in mid-eastern
countries and are aware of the issue, do you have their support? I would
also like to ask about the stamp being on a separate page? doesnt the Visa
have to be on the passport itself, are you talking about
two separate things?

Regards

Theo

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:20 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote:

>
> > I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
> > to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
> > remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
> > an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
> > includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
> > destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
> > those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
> > ethical levels.
>
> Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also,
> Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I
> would need to check.
>
> The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli
> stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe
> this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure
> about Irak for instance):
> Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen,
> Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel
> break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution.
>
> There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli
> stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be
> compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and
> Indonesia.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Yaroslav M. Blanter]

> I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
> to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
> remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
> an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
> includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
> destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
> those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
> ethical levels.

Turkey is no problem, Turkish citizens can, may and do visit Israel. Also,
Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunesia, and Mauretania are no problem. Algeria I
would need to check.

The list of countries which would never let a visitor in with the Israeli
stamp (or Jordan or Egypt stamp in correponding checkpoints) is (I believe
this is a full list but one needs to check the lates updates; not sure
about Irak for instance):
Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Yemen,
Qatar, Sudan, Lybia. Citizens of these countries who openly visit Israel
break the laws of these countries and can face prosecution.

There are other countries which would let a foreigner with an Israeli
stamp in but not let their citizens to visit Israel. This list needs to be
compiled from the database but I believe it includes at least Malaysia and
Indonesia. 

Cheers
Yaroslav

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Abbas Mahmoud]

I think Moushira is right: as much as there are external threats (which are 
being curbed in one way or another), it ultimately is a personal decision of 
whether or not a person wants to go.

> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:45:44 +0200
> From: mathias.schind...@gmail.com
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> 
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Abbas Mahmoud  wrote:
> >
> > What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the 
> > consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a 
> > result of prior travel to Israel).
> 
> At least some states are offering secondary passports to their
> citizens to avoid conflicts with entrence stamps.
> 
> Mathias
> 
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Mathias Schindler]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Abbas Mahmoud  wrote:
>
> What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the 
> consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a 
> result of prior travel to Israel).

At least some states are offering secondary passports to their
citizens to avoid conflicts with entrence stamps.

Mathias

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Mathias Schindler]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Abbas Mahmoud  wrote:
> Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare 
> step into Israeli soil.

Hey, isn't this already progress when they acknowledge the soil to be
Israeli? :)

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Moushira Elamrawy]

Thanks Harel for your email..

On 8/11/10, Harel Cain  wrote:
> Israel is well aware of this situation, and offers the special
> possibility of stamping not the passport but a separate page on entry
> and exit, for any visitor that requests it
A confirmation for the possibility of getting the stamp on a separate
paper will be helpful for people who might have fear of losing their
jobs in UAE or other gulf countries or of being banned from religious
rituals in Saudi Arabia.

>
> As to visiting Israel being socially unacceptable in some societies,  or a 
> good reason for being harassed by one's own government, this is a very 
> regrettable fact of Middle East politics, but totally not within  the 
> organizing team's sphere of influence.

As I put it before it is a complex and complicated situation which I
believe is better discussed without any judgments on politics,
governments or social reactions.
For participants who might have any conservations on going to Israel,
attending Wikimania will have its own cons and pros which will remain
up to the personal evaluation of the attendant, after all.

Good luck with all..
M
>
>
> Harel Cain
> Wikimania 2011 team
>
>> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:26:09 +0300
>> From: moushirah at gmail.com
>> To: foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>>
>> Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter
>> about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident
>> of an Arab or Muslim nation.
>>
>> I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
>> to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
>> remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
>> an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
>> includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
>> destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
>> those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
>> ethical levels.
>> Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make
>> it Haifa or not.
>>
>> M
>
>
> --
> Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.
>
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[Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Harel Cain]

Israel is well aware of this situation, and offers the special
possibility of stamping not the passport but a separate page on entry
and exit, for any visitor that requests it (Westerners who work/travel
to countries like Iran will not want an Israeli stamp on their
passport).

As to visiting Israel being socially unacceptable in some societies,
or a good reason for being harassed by one's own government, this is a
very regrettable fact of Middle East politics, but totally not within
the organizing team's sphere of influence. The only thing we can do
about it is hand out "Don't photograph me" labels or anonymous name
tags to participants who want them, much like happened in WM2007 in
Taipei (for some visitors from the PR of China).


Harel Cain
Wikimania 2011 team

> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:26:09 +0300
> From: moushirah at gmail.com
> To: foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>
> Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter
> about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident
> of an Arab or Muslim nation.
>
> I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
> to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
> remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
> an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
> includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
> destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
> those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
> ethical levels.
> Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make
> it Haifa or not.
>
> M


--
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

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[Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Harel Cain]

Hi all,

Thanks for bringing this up - although I think this belongs on wikimania-l
and not necessarily here.

I believe we'll be posting a FAQ dedicated to these issues quite soon on our
website, http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org, as this matter has been brought
up a number of times already.

I'll try to sum it up quickly for now:

* We will be delighted to have as high a participation as possible from the
entire Middle East. This is really, really important to us, more than
everything else. You can visit our website and see that most of it has
already been translated into Arabic.

* Unfortunately, ME politics is often plagued by tactics such as banning and
boycotting. No matter how good our intentions, I'm sorry to say there will
be people there who will still abstain from coming to the conference for
their own reasons, and there's not too much we can do about it. If someone
doesn't want to come to Israel, well, then, we can only express our regret
at his choice (which we think is misinformed). I wish they could all come
here and change their minds about Israeli reality.

* Wikimedia is not about politics, Wikimedia Israel doesn't represent the
Israeli government (or any other political entity), and we're trying to
focus this on free knowledge and a way for people to meet and interact, not
on politics.

* Wikimania 2011 will be held in Haifa, a city which is home to both Jews
and Arabs. We'll be promoting it (also) using bilingual posters and
brochures, and will try to reach the very large population of Israeli-Arab
students in Haifa's academic institutions.

* Israeli Arabs can (of course!!) reach the conference like any other
Israeli - they just need to get to the venue, on foot, by car, by train or
by bus.

* Palestinians living in the West Bank enter Israel by the thousands every
day. Yes, they need a permit for that. Obtaining that permit is a routine
operation. Yes, some difficulties might come up there, we'll use our
contacts within Israeli authorities to try to facilitate this as much as
possible, including issuing letters of invitation and contacting the
authorities well in advance. In fact, Israel might be one of the easier
destination for Palestinians to reach.

* Palestinians living in Gaza will have a harder time entering Israel. We're
looking at various possibilities to make this possible, should there be any
real demand for this. One possibility is for them to enter Egypt via the
border crossing in Rafah (which Egypt usually closes) and to reach Israel
via Egypt.

* Having said that, we know of *no* Palestinian (or Israeli-Arab)
Wikimedians, despite repeated attempts over the years to locate some. If
someone knows any, please let us know!

* Citizens of other countries can fly into Israel or enter Israel through
the open border crossings with Jordan and Egypt. Israel of course recognizes
the passports of countries with which it has diplomatic relations, even only
partial relations, such as Egypt, Jordan, Tunisia, Morocco, Algiers and
others. Please refer to http://wikimania2011.wikimedia.org/wiki/Visas.

* For some countries which do not recognize Israel like Syria, Iraq, Iran
and Saudi Arabia, entry will be more difficult, but there have been sporadic
entries from these countries in the past, and should any participant from
these countries wish to attend Wikimania, we will do our utmost to assist.
We have a letter of support from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs,
and exceptions can always be made at border crossings if approved from
on-high.


I'd be happy to keep this discussion constructive and not let it deteriorate
into a flame war.
Of course if anyone has further questions, we'll be happy to answer them.


Harel Cain
Wikimania 2011 team
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Abbas Mahmoud]

What some people from the are afraid of is not entering Israel; but the 
consequences of them entering Israel (eg being barred entry to Dubai as a 
result of prior travel to Israel).








 

Image by FlamingText.com 






 

> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:26:09 +0300
> From: moushi...@gmail.com
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> 
> Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter
> about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident
> of an Arab or Muslim nation.
> 
> I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
> to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
> remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
> an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
> includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
> destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
> those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
> ethical levels.
> Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make
> it Haifa or not.
> 
> M
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/11/10, Abbas Mahmoud  wrote:
> > Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare
> > step into Israeli soil.
> >
> >> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100
> >> From: thomas.dal...@gmail.com
> >> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> >>
> >> On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni  wrote:
> >> > DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame.
> >> > So
> >> > please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads
> >> > (I
> >> > subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I
> >> > found is
> >> > here:
> >> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
> >> > but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
> >> > Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania
> >> > 2011.
> >> > I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
> >> > example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember
> >> > a
> >> > discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-(
> >> > )
> >> > about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are
> >> > there
> >> > any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
> >> > Thank you in advance.
> >>
> >> I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the
> >> Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to
> >> get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the
> >> neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's
> >> priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the
> >> issue certainly isn't being ignored.
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > 
> > ___
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Moushira Elamrawy]

Abbas: Let us not generalize; it is a complex and complicated matter
about the will/ability to visit Israel if you happen to be a resident
of an Arab or Muslim nation.

I believe the "difficulty" of getting a visa varies from one country
to another, but even with the help of the bidding team, an issue will
remain unresolved, that is: Some countries do not allow persons with
an Israeli stamp on their passports, to enter their borders. The list
includes: Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, UAE, Turkey ..and other
destinations. I am not sure if there are exceptions for this rule in
those countries. It is a complicated situation on political and
ethical levels.
Maybe it remains a personal choice of the participant whether to make
it Haifa or not.

M



On 8/11/10, Abbas Mahmoud  wrote:
> Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare
> step into Israeli soil.
>
>> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100
>> From: thomas.dal...@gmail.com
>> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
>>
>> On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni  wrote:
>> > DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame.
>> > So
>> > please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)
>> >
>> >
>> > I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads
>> > (I
>> > subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I
>> > found is
>> > here:
>> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
>> > but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
>> > Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania
>> > 2011.
>> > I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
>> > example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember
>> > a
>> > discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-(
>> > )
>> > about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are
>> > there
>> > any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
>> > Thank you in advance.
>>
>> I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the
>> Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to
>> get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the
>> neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's
>> priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the
>> issue certainly isn't being ignored.
>>
>> ___
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>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>   
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Nathan]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Abbas Mahmoud  wrote:
> Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare 
> step into Israeli soil.
>

That's a pretty broad generalization -  hopefully the organizing team
will still make every effort to include as many people as possible,
just in case you aren't 100% correct.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Abbas Mahmoud]

Not only the Middle East, but the Muslim population at large will not dare step 
into Israeli soil.

> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:06:45 +0100
> From: thomas.dal...@gmail.com
> To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011
> 
> On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni  wrote:
> > DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So
> > please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)
> >
> >
> > I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I
> > subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is
> > here:
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
> > but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
> > Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011.
> > I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
> > example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a
> > discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( )
> > about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there
> > any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
> > Thank you in advance.
> 
> I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the
> Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to
> get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the
> neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's
> priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the
> issue certainly isn't being ignored.
> 
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Re: [Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Thomas Dalton]

On 11 August 2010 12:37, Andrea Zanni  wrote:
> DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So
> please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)
>
>
> I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I
> subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is
> here:
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
> but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
> Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011.
> I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
> example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a
> discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( )
> about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there
> any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
> Thank you in advance.

I spoke to quite a few people on the Israeli bid team and at the
Foundation about Wikimania 2011 while in Gdansk and I know trying to
get visas for as many people as possible, particularly from the
neighbouring Arabic countries, is very high up on everybody's
priorities. I don't know what is being done to achieve that, but the
issue certainly isn't being ignored.

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[Foundation-l] Partecipation in Wikimania 2011

[Andrea Zanni]

DISCLAIMER: this is a delicate issue that could easily generate a flame. So
please everybody presume the good faith and stay on topic :-)


I don't really know if this issue as been discussed in earlier threads (I
subscribed to this list after Gdansk and the only pertinent thing I found is
here:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2011/Bids/Haifa/Q%26A#Participants),
but I would like to know if there are updates about the possibility for
Middle East citizens to have permissions to enter Israel for Wikimania 2011.
I guess this type of permission is not easy to obtain (I'm thinking for
example about citizens of Syria, West Bank or Iran) and I also remember a
discussion in Gdansk (with Jan Bart, just after the World Cup Final :-( )
about some initiatives we could support to increase participation. Are there
any news or updates? Could I find some information somewhere?
Thank you in advance.

Aubrey
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