GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Hi, Several months ago, people raised the issues of some inappropriate comments made during various talks. The board worked on resolving those issues, and then proposed the creation of guidelines to have better ways to limit such inappropriate comments, as well as to answer similar issues that would be raised in the future. The result is a document listing a set of guidelines to help speakers avoid offending the audience, in order to have the talks enjoyed by as many people as possible: http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct/SpeakerGuidelines We would like to encourage everybody who will deliver at a talk at a GNOME event, or who will represent GNOME with a GNOME talk at other events, to go read those guidelines! Many thanks to Matthew Garrett for his initial work on this, and to the community for the feedback sent after we've published a draft of this document. Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Hi, As a GUADEC Speaker this year I went through the Guidelines and I'm a little bit worried about this, because I reviewed my talk at last GUADEC (GNOME 1,2,3, with the amazing Xan) and I think it failed to comply all of those guidelines. At the end, the document says: "Please keep in mind that the GNOME Foundation is not the right forum to debate whether someone should feel offended or not" so I not going to debate it, but I would like to stand that with every single sentence I can say there are potential people all over the world that can feel offended, so I just cannot control or avoid it. I also don't think the ending is appropriate: "These guidelines do not constitute censorship since you have many other forums and opportunities to say whatever you wish.". That is a pretty evil justification and probably Governments in Iran, Saudi Arabia or North Korean can use it. Salu2 "If all printers were determined not to print anything till they were sure it would offend nobody, there would be very little printed." Benjamin Franklin (1730) On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Vincent Untz wrote: > > The result is a document listing a set of guidelines to help speakers > avoid offending the audience, in order to have the talks enjoyed by as > many people as possible: > > http://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct/SpeakerGuidelines > > We would like to encourage everybody who will deliver at a talk at a > GNOME event, or who will represent GNOME with a GNOME talk at other > events, to go read those guidelines! > > Many thanks to Matthew Garrett for his initial work on this, and to the > community for the feedback sent after we've published a draft of this > document. > > Thanks, > > Vincent > > -- > Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. > ___ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list > ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 2:06 AM, Fernando Herrera wrote: > > I also don't think the ending is appropriate: "These guidelines do not > constitute censorship since you have many other forums and > opportunities to say whatever you wish.". That is a pretty evil > justification and probably Governments in Iran, Saudi Arabia or North > Korean can use it. > > "If all printers were determined not to print anything till they were > sure it would offend nobody, there would be very little printed." > I have had jobs where we were not allowed to print pornography at work. But I was still totally free to print pornography at home. (At least as far as the company was concerned.) The company defined what was appropriate within their "forums". GNOME can decide what's appropriate to discuss in GNOME forums whether it's conferences or mailing lists. Topics that are off topic for GNOME (say politics not related to free software) can be discussed in other forums. I don't think that's censorship. Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:16 AM, Fernando Herrera wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Stormy Peters wrote: >> The company defined what was appropriate within their "forums". GNOME >> can decide what's appropriate to discuss in GNOME forums whether it's >> conferences or mailing lists. > > Here with GNOME do you mean GNOME community or the GNOME Foundation? The GNOME Foundation which supports the GNOME community. Hopefully they are close to one and the same when it comes to people. >> Topics that are off topic for GNOME (say >> politics not related to free software) can be discussed in other >> forums. I don't think that's censorship. > > Do you mean that the acceptance of the Speaker Guidelines for GNOME > conferences is an off-topic issue for GNOME forums? > No. No where did I say that. I said that politics not related to free software are off topic for GNOME forums. Speaker Guidelines for GNOME conferences is a totally appropriate topic on GNOME forums and has (and is being) discussed several times. Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Stormy Peters wrote: > I have had jobs where we were not allowed to print pornography at > work. But I was still totally free to print pornography at home. (At > least as far as the company was concerned.) Not printing pornography is a pretty clear rule. One might ask for a precise line of distrinction between art and pornography but that's not likely to be relevant to your work. Here, in GNOME's case, we have a rather vague set of rules. It would be hard to say anything more than stating facts and not risk crossing the (rather fuzzy) line. Creationism vs. evolutionism shows that even what one sees as facts can be taken as a personal insult by the other. It would be better if GNOME defined a precise set of rules (ie. "don't mention religion"). As for the hazy areas, common sense is a better judge than a set of written rules. If someone does something grossly inappropriate just don't invite them to further events. -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Hi, On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Stormy Peters wrote: > The company defined what was appropriate within their "forums". GNOME > can decide what's appropriate to discuss in GNOME forums whether it's > conferences or mailing lists. Here with GNOME do you mean GNOME community or the GNOME Foundation? > Topics that are off topic for GNOME (say > politics not related to free software) can be discussed in other > forums. I don't think that's censorship. Do you mean that the acceptance of the Speaker Guidelines for GNOME conferences is an off-topic issue for GNOME forums? Salu2 ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
> It would be better if GNOME defined a precise set of rules (ie. "don't > mention religion"). As for the hazy areas, common sense is a better That is hardly a precise rule. I think quite a few people would describe certain posters attitude to the letters G N and U as 'religion'. The social sciences don't have an effective definition for religion so I doubt Gnome does. > judge than a set of written rules. If someone does something grossly > inappropriate just don't invite them to further events. "Policy is a poor man's substitute for common sense." -- David Woodhouse I think says it all Alan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Alan Cox wrote: > > "Policy is a poor man's substitute for common sense." > -- David Woodhouse > > > I think says it all Yeah, I completely agree and Policy ~= Guidelines, so I would feel much comfortable just asking speakers for common sense and a disclaimer like "The views expressed on these talks are those of speakers do not necessarily reflect the views of GNOME Foundation". Salu2 ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 10:06 +0200, Fernando Herrera wrote: > Hi, > > As a GUADEC Speaker this year I went through the Guidelines and I'm a > little bit worried about this, because I reviewed my talk at last > GUADEC (GNOME 1,2,3, with the amazing Xan) and I think it failed to > comply all of those guidelines. > > At the end, the document says: "Please keep in mind that the GNOME > Foundation is not the right forum to debate whether someone should > feel offended or not" so I not going to debate it, but I would like > to stand that with every single sentence I can say there are potential > people all over the world that can feel offended, so I just cannot > control or avoid it. I doubt that. However, you should assume some goodwill. The guidelines are vague because we cannot specify in exact detail everything that would offend somebody, and we don't want to become lawyers that spend their time interpreting precise rules, and because that just shouldn't be necessary. It's a simple request to consider peoples' feelings a bit. You are fully capable of doing that. > I also don't think the ending is appropriate: "These guidelines do not > constitute censorship since you have many other forums and > opportunities to say whatever you wish.". That is a pretty evil > justification and probably Governments in Iran, Saudi Arabia or North > Korean can use it. I don't think they do. And leaving your country to escape actual punishment is hardly comparable to adjusting the text of your speech. -- murr...@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 2:21 AM, "Patryk Zawadzki" wrote: > > It would be better if GNOME defined a precise set of rules (ie. "don't > mention religion"). As for the hazy areas, common sense is a better > judge than a set of written rules. If someone does something grossly > inappropriate just don't invite them to further events. The difficulty with "precise sets of rules", is that anything that someone didn't manage to explicitly think up in advance is "fair game" as long as it doesn't _precisely_ run afoul of one of those rules. And when someone _does_ manage to find something which actually offends everyone in the audience, but which wasn't envisioned beforehand, there's no basis for complaint at all: it's not "against the rules". ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Lefty (石鏡 ) wrote: > On 6/25/10 2:21 AM, "Patryk Zawadzki" wrote: >> >> It would be better if GNOME defined a precise set of rules (ie. "don't >> mention religion"). As for the hazy areas, common sense is a better >> judge than a set of written rules. If someone does something grossly >> inappropriate just don't invite them to further events. > The difficulty with "precise sets of rules", is that anything that someone > didn't manage to explicitly think up in advance is "fair game" as long as it > doesn't _precisely_ run afoul of one of those rules. > > And when someone _does_ manage to find something which actually offends > everyone in the audience, but which wasn't envisioned beforehand, there's no > basis for complaint at all: it's not "against the rules". Did you miss the common sense part? If the rules are vague, everything can be proved to be "against the rules". I believe the rules were defined to stop RMS from making jokes. If you don't like his sense of humor, don't invite him. You don't have to ban all kinds of jokes and sarcasm along the way. -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Since you've brought it up, Patryk, my very first thought in looking at these guidelines was to marvel at the completeness with which Mr. Stallman's "keynote" at GCDS last year managed to run roughshod over every single one. There's nothing wrong with jokes or humor. When the supposed "humor" comes directly at the expense of a minority of the audience―a part, in fact, which is unreasonably small―it should be apparent that this is not the sort of "humor" we want to be seeing in a keynote address at our community's own technical conference. "Humor" is supposed to be funny; Mr. Stallman was not. A keynote should not single out a portion of the community for unwanted negative attention, particularly when that attention is of a sexual nature. Within the past two weeks, a male attendee sexually assaulted a couple of women at a Linux conference. Perhaps he believed that they were "EMACS virgins" and he was exercising his "holy duty". __ Sent from my Steve-Phone On Jun 25, 2010, at 7:42 AM, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: > On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Lefty (石鏡 ) wrote: >> On 6/25/10 2:21 AM, "Patryk Zawadzki" wrote: >>> >>> It would be better if GNOME defined a precise set of rules (ie. "don't >>> mention religion"). As for the hazy areas, common sense is a better >>> judge than a set of written rules. If someone does something grossly >>> inappropriate just don't invite them to further events. >> The difficulty with "precise sets of rules", is that anything that someone >> didn't manage to explicitly think up in advance is "fair game" as long as it >> doesn't _precisely_ run afoul of one of those rules. >> >> And when someone _does_ manage to find something which actually offends >> everyone in the audience, but which wasn't envisioned beforehand, there's no >> basis for complaint at all: it's not "against the rules". > > Did you miss the common sense part? If the rules are vague, everything > can be proved to be "against the rules". > > I believe the rules were defined to stop RMS from making jokes. If you > don't like his sense of humor, don't invite him. You don't have to ban > all kinds of jokes and sarcasm along the way. > > -- > Patryk Zawadzki ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
2010/6/25 Stone Mirror : > Since you've brought it up, Patryk, my very first thought in looking at these > guidelines was to marvel at the completeness with which Mr. Stallman's > "keynote" at GCDS last year managed to run roughshod over every single one. > > There's nothing wrong with jokes or humor. When the supposed "humor" comes > directly at the expense of a minority of the audience―a part, in fact, which > is unreasonably small―it should be apparent that this is not the sort of > "humor" we want to be seeing in a keynote address at our community's own > technical conference. > > "Humor" is supposed to be funny; Mr. Stallman was not. A keynote should not > single out a portion of the community for unwanted negative attention, > particularly when that attention is of a sexual nature. I am not defending RMS. I am just stating that the anti-RMS rules are so vague that any statement can be bent to become a violation. I bet at least one person in the audience is offended when they see the presenter using a Mac. Or sporting a Windows t-shirt. Or using an iPod. Or mentioning that Apple did something better than GNOME. "Security, seize and escort the speaker out of the building." :) > Within the past two weeks, a male attendee sexually assaulted a couple of > women at a Linux conference. Perhaps he believed that they were "EMACS > virgins" and he was exercising his "holy duty". That's completely irrelevant. Do we need to write a list of "no bag stealing", "no puppy strangling" etc.? Sexual assaults are supposed to be dealt with using law enforcement, not speaker guidelines. -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
> That's completely irrelevant. Do we need to write a list of "no bag > stealing", "no puppy strangling" etc.? Sexual assaults are supposed to > be dealt with using law enforcement, not speaker guidelines. Assault is - but where for example would you draw the line given a speaker appearing in a swastika t-shirt and making jewish jokes (which in most of the world would merely be very offensive not a crime) and "not being our problem" That is the same question but put in blunter terms about an issue over which there is more consensus and awareness. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 8:41 AM, "Alan Cox" wrote: > >> That's completely irrelevant. Do we need to write a list of "no bag >> stealing", "no puppy strangling" etc.? Sexual assaults are supposed to >> be dealt with using law enforcement, not speaker guidelines. No, because coming up with a "detailed list of rules", as I said earlier, does not really help address the issue at hand here. Sexual assaults should indeed be dealt with by law enforcement. "Jokes" presented in the course of a keynote at a major technical conference which are tantamount to encouraging or even advocating sexual assault, or providing some sort of bizarre justification for it (i.e. "holy duty"), are another matter entirely. There is no law against them, nor should there be, but that doesn't make them the least bit acceptable in this context. > Assault is - but where for example would you draw the line given a > speaker appearing in a swastika t-shirt and making jewish jokes (which in > most of the world would merely be very offensive not a crime) and "not > being our problem" > > That is the same question but put in blunter terms about an issue over > which there is more consensus and awareness. Thank you, Alan. My point, if it was somehow unclear, is that "jokes" like Mr. Stallman's can't possibly _discourage_ someone like this would-be rapist. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Patryk: Did you miss the common sense part? If the rules are vague, everything can be proved to be "against the rules". These rules are for the GNOME Foundation community and the GNOME Foundation community will decide when the rules apply and when they have been broken. I think the GNOME Foundation community is an intelligent, highly educated bunch, and I do not think we need to be so concerned that these guidelines will be used in an abusive or frivolous manner. If, over time, we find that our speaker guidelines are being used in a way that is hampering honest, free speech, then this is something we can discuss and address in the future. Our guidelines are likely to be a living document that will be modified as necessary to ensure that they are used and understood properly. The goal we are trying to achieve with having Speaker Guidelines is to try and help foster an environment where people are more sensitive, aware, and focused on productive discourse. I believe the rules were defined to stop RMS from making jokes. If you don't like his sense of humor, don't invite him. You don't have to ban all kinds of jokes and sarcasm along the way. I have a few things to say about this. 1) There is no benefit in making this issue personal. Over the past 2.5 years that I have been on the board, the board has been asked to help address a situation where someone has been offensive at least a half-dozen times. The Speaker Guidelines were created to help deal with this class of problems, not to deal with any particular person who may have been offensive at any particular time. Please lets avoid derailing this discussion by turning it into a discussion about a particular person or situation. 2) When situations do happen, the board is often criticized that we are slow or ineffective at addressing them. One reason these problems are difficult to address is that we do not have any clear ground rules. Considering how difficult it is to get our community to agree on even simple ground rules, I hope people in the GNOME Foundation community can appreciate the difficulty and frustration the board has trying to address problems when they arise. 3) There is no problem with anyone telling jokes in general. That said, there is always a risk when telling a joke that someone might be offended. So the burden is on the speaker to ensure that any joke is appropriate for the audience at a GNOME technical conference. Humor that is at the expense of a minority or which encourage discrimination is not appropriate for a GNOME technical conference regardless of who says them. But this does not mean that jokes are always bad, or that jokes by any particular speaker are always bad. Also, sometimes people say offensive things without really understanding that their words are offensive, or would be interpreted in that way. The GNOME Foundation is highly diverse and made up of people from around the world, and people from different cultures or backgrounds do not always share the same sensitivities. So, when situations happen, it is important to have ground rules to help educate our speakers so that they understand how to be more considerate and effective speakers in the future. Brian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 1:57 PM, "Brian Cameron" wrote:
>
> {a completely sensible response}
Thanks, Brian.
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Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 17:30 +0200, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: > 2010/6/25 Stone Mirror : > > Since you've brought it up, Patryk, my very first thought in looking at > > these guidelines was to marvel at the completeness with which Mr. > > Stallman's "keynote" at GCDS last year managed to run roughshod over every > > single one. > > > > There's nothing wrong with jokes or humor. When the supposed "humor" comes > > directly at the expense of a minority of the audience―a part, in fact, > > which is unreasonably small―it should be apparent that this is not the sort > > of "humor" we want to be seeing in a keynote address at our community's own > > technical conference. > > > > "Humor" is supposed to be funny; Mr. Stallman was not. A keynote should not > > single out a portion of the community for unwanted negative attention, > > particularly when that attention is of a sexual nature. > > I am not defending RMS. I am just stating that the anti-RMS rules are > so vague that any statement can be bent to become a violation. I bet > at least one person in the audience is offended when they see the > presenter using a Mac. Or sporting a Windows t-shirt. Or using an > iPod. Or mentioning that Apple did something better than GNOME. > "Security, seize and escort the speaker out of the building." :) Exactly! For instance, I am offended almost every time Lefty or Philip Van Hoof say something ... almost anything nowdays. - S ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 08:08 -0700, Stone Mirror wrote: > Within the past two weeks, a male attendee sexually assaulted a couple > of women at a Linux conference. Perhaps he believed that they were > "EMACS virgins" and he was exercising his "holy duty". And the "Open Source" heresy founding father, ESR, is a self-professed "gun nut". Should we be mentioning ESR and "Open Source" movement every time the gun violence is in the news? - S ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 3:06 PM, "Sergey Panov" wrote: > > Exactly! For instance, > I am offended almost every time Lefty or Philip Van Hoof say something ... > almost anything nowdays. - Perhaps you should find some other mailing list to read if you're finding this one that distressing. It's interesting that you'd drag a third party, who's had nothing to say on this, into the discussion. Dave Neary recently gave me a good definition of "trolling": "making inflammatory remarks without actually adding anything to the discussion." Thought I'd just toss that out there. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Sergey: Please do not derail this discussion. The topic at hand is to discuss how to create simple guidelines to help people understand how to best represent themselves and GNOME when speaking at various events. This topic is not about individuals that you or others might find offensive. It is especially not about individuals who haven't even spoken at GNOME events. It is also not about whether or not there is any relationship between making offensive jokes and general bad behavior in society. If you have points to raise on how to improve our proposed guidelines, could you do so without naming specific individuals? Also, asking rhetorical questions is not nearly as useful as suggesting improved text, or pointing out what you think needs to be improved about the proposed guidelines. Please try and contribute to the conversation in a more constructive manner. Many volunteers have been working hard for months to try and put together some simple guidelines that are reasonable and meet people's main concerns. To be respectful to these volunteers and their hard work, we should try and keep on topic. Brian On 06/25/10 05:06 PM, Sergey Panov wrote: On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 08:08 -0700, Stone Mirror wrote: Within the past two weeks, a male attendee sexually assaulted a couple of women at a Linux conference. Perhaps he believed that they were "EMACS virgins" and he was exercising his "holy duty". And the "Open Source" heresy founding father, ESR, is a self-professed "gun nut". Should we be mentioning ESR and "Open Source" movement every time the gun violence is in the news? - S ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 8:30 AM, "Patryk Zawadzki" wrote: > > I bet > at least one person in the audience is offended when they see the > presenter using a Mac. Or sporting a Windows t-shirt. Or using an > iPod. Or mentioning that Apple did something better than GNOME. > "Security, seize and escort the speaker out of the building." :) By the way: I would certainly recommend that anyone who's offended by a presenter using a Mac, wearing a Windows t-shirt, or both at the same time, to take their concerns directly and immediately to the Board of Directors. I would suggest that the Board of Directors tell them to "Get a grip." Is it _that_ difficult to distinguish between the sort of offense that someone like Celeste Lyn Paul, a KDE board member, expressed when she wrote ( http://identi.ca/notice/6304540)... "Do men really think RMSs virgin joke at #gcds was not sexist? Very disappointed in FLOSS comm chatter about this." ...on the one hand, and the "offense" that someone who feels a speaker is not being "pure" enough, or something, by using a "non-free-software- movement-approved" piece of hardware, or wearing a t-shirt bearing the logo of a "non-free-software-movement-approved" company, on the other? Do you see no distinction between the two, Patryk? (I am, admittedly, making the assumption that the reason your "at least one person" is taking offense is because the "free software movement" has a deep dislike, at the very least, for both Apple and Microsoft. Correct me if they're taking offense on color choices, style/industrial design or some other score.) As I recall, there was no shortage at all of MacBooks in the _audience_ at GCDS, and that's been pretty typical. There were plenty at FOSDEM as well. Do you think someone would be reasonable for your "at least one person" to "take offense" at the members of the community who happen to like Macs? What do you think he-or-she should do about this? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 3:39 PM, "David Schlesinger" wrote: > > ( http://identi.ca/notice/6304540)... > > "Do men really think RMSs virgin joke at #gcds was not sexist? Very > disappointed in FLOSS comm chatter about this." By the way: Celeste wrote this while sitting in the auditorium at GCDS, listening to Stallman express his notion of what constitutes "gentle humor". ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Lefty: If it isn't clear already, the Speaker Guidelines are not intended to be used in frivolous ways. If people think that this needs to be spelled out more clearly in the guidelines, then please propose improved text. I can't imagine that anybody would take a complaint about someone giving a talk and using a MacBook seriously, unless the situation were somehow extraordinary (e.g. if a speaker had a "GNU/Linux Killer" sticker on their MacBook, that might warrant some concern and discussion). There is no need to discuss Apple or Microsoft or any other specific company. If you have concerns about how the guidelines might be applied about topics concerning free source vs. open source vs. proprietary technologies, then let's please talk about this without naming specific companies. Brian On 06/25/10 05:39 PM, Lefty (石鏡 ) wrote: On 6/25/10 8:30 AM, "Patryk Zawadzki" wrote: I bet at least one person in the audience is offended when they see the presenter using a Mac. Or sporting a Windows t-shirt. Or using an iPod. Or mentioning that Apple did something better than GNOME. "Security, seize and escort the speaker out of the building." :) By the way: I would certainly recommend that anyone who's offended by a presenter using a Mac, wearing a Windows t-shirt, or both at the same time, to take their concerns directly and immediately to the Board of Directors. I would suggest that the Board of Directors tell them to "Get a grip." Is it _that_ difficult to distinguish between the sort of offense that someone like Celeste Lyn Paul, a KDE board member, expressed when she wrote ( http://identi.ca/notice/6304540)... "Do men really think RMSs virgin joke at #gcds was not sexist? Very disappointed in FLOSS comm chatter about this." ...on the one hand, and the "offense" that someone who feels a speaker is not being "pure" enough, or something, by using a "non-free-software- movement-approved" piece of hardware, or wearing a t-shirt bearing the logo of a "non-free-software-movement-approved" company, on the other? Do you see no distinction between the two, Patryk? (I am, admittedly, making the assumption that the reason your "at least one person" is taking offense is because the "free software movement" has a deep dislike, at the very least, for both Apple and Microsoft. Correct me if they're taking offense on color choices, style/industrial design or some other score.) As I recall, there was no shortage at all of MacBooks in the _audience_ at GCDS, and that's been pretty typical. There were plenty at FOSDEM as well. Do you think someone would be reasonable for your "at least one person" to "take offense" at the members of the community who happen to like Macs? What do you think he-or-she should do about this? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 3:50 PM, "Brian Cameron" wrote: > > If it isn't clear already, the Speaker Guidelines are not intended to be > used in frivolous ways. It's certainly seems clear enough to me. It appeared, though, to be unclear to Patryk. > If people think that this needs to be spelled > out more clearly in the guidelines, then please propose improved text. Actually, I'd suggest "thinking some more" first. > I can't imagine that anybody would take a complaint about someone giving > a talk and using a MacBook seriously, unless the situation were somehow > extraordinary (e.g. if a speaker had a "GNU/Linux Killer" sticker on > their MacBook, that might warrant some concern and discussion). I agree, and I can't really imagine such a situation, either, especially having seen how many MacBooks there actually are at GCDS and FOSDEM. However, Patryk says he knows one, if not more, people who are simply offended, apparently, by the mere _presence_ of MacBooks (and/or Microsoft t-shirts). I expect they must have bleeding ulcers by this point, so the issue has at least the potential of containing its own resolution, but... > There is no need to discuss Apple or Microsoft or any other specific > company. If you have concerns about how the guidelines might be applied > about topics concerning free source vs. open source vs. proprietary > technologies, then let's please talk about this without naming specific > companies. I don't personally think we need to talk about it at all, any more than we needed to talk about it with regard to the Planet. If it wasn't clear, I believe that equating an "offense" at MacBooks with the "offense" that Celeste describes is...interesting, to say the least. I might even say that I found _that_ rather offensive if doing so weren't so self-referential. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 4:15 PM, "David Schlesinger" wrote: > On 6/25/10 3:50 PM, "Brian Cameron" wrote: >> >> I can't imagine that anybody would take a complaint about someone giving >> a talk and using a MacBook seriously, unless the situation were somehow >> extraordinary (e.g. if a speaker had a "GNU/Linux Killer" sticker on >> their MacBook, that might warrant some concern and discussion). > > I agree... I need to clarify: we are in agreement in both apparently finding a situation such as you and Patryk describe improbable. A sticker such as you describe would personally bother me no more than a Microsoft t-shirt would. People are entitled to their opinions on such matters, and I don't care to restrain their expression of those opinions, personally. "Free" speech and all that. I'd be much more concerned about a "Looking for EMCS virgins!" sticker, myself. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Hey all. I agree with this: > I also don't think the ending is appropriate: "These guidelines do not > constitute censorship since you have many other forums and > opportunities to say whatever you wish." As a matter of fact, personally I am not jazzed by the entire ending: Please keep in mind that the GNOME Foundation is not the right forum to debate whether someone should feel offended or not; you should simply avoid offending people even if you do not share their views. These guidelines do not constitute censorship since you have many other forums and opportunities to say whatever you wish. It is neither "positive" nor "welcoming" to would-be speakers -- and thus contrasts rather starkly with bullet point 1 under "Guidelines." It also feels like an attempt to preempt a response/reaction, which is perfectly understandable given the nature of the document. However, it is the very nature of the people in question to ignore such language. Were it me, I'd nix that paragraph. If the Board feels it must remain, I'd suggest that someone come up with something more positive and welcoming. Take care. --joanie ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/25/10 4:25 PM, "Joanmarie Diggs" wrote: > > I agree with this: > >> I also don't think the ending is appropriate: "These guidelines do not >> constitute censorship since you have many other forums and >> opportunities to say whatever you wish." I pretty much agree with _you_. However, experience has shown that the very first thing some people who want to avoid staying within guidelines will do is cry "censorship". It's incorrect, it's silly, it's inane, and for a variety of reasons, the chief of which are cited in that section: you can go _someplace else_ and say whatever you want, if you feel you must, and the guidelines won't allow it. (I shudder, somewhat, to think what that might amount to, looking at the guidelines again. "The Beloved Prophet, GNUhammed"? I _hope_ not.) I'd be happy to see it moved to an "annotated version" or comments or something, but I fear that without it, we'll be continually explaining to people that "freedom of the press doesn't actually mean that _you're_ free to use _my_ press as you see fit". ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Brian Cameron wrote: > > > I have a few things to say about this. > > Brian, These are good comments. I think that's good enough explanation on the guidelines coupled with the living document strategy. We are not going to get right the first time. I suggest we take the stance of "no evil intended" and just close this thread. Talking about improbable scenarios is (eg swastika) is taking things to an extreme to test the rules will just rat hole us, we can discuss all kinds of scenarios and no rule is going to work... I'm still trying to figure out all the procmail rules that would filter my mail properly. :-) Let's close it, there is nothing more to discuss. We'll adjust as we find situations that the guidelines doesn't help us. Thank you, Brian for your hard work on this. I and the rest of the community appreciate the thought and labo(u)r that went into it. Much appreciated. sri ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 5:25 PM, Joanmarie Diggs wrote: > > As a matter of fact, personally I am not jazzed by the entire ending: > > Please keep in mind that the GNOME Foundation is not the right > forum to debate whether someone should feel offended or not; you > should simply avoid offending people even if you do not share > their views. These guidelines do not constitute censorship since > you have many other forums and opportunities to say whatever you > wish. > > It is neither "positive" nor "welcoming" to would-be speakers -- and > thus contrasts rather starkly with bullet point 1 under "Guidelines." I agree. And it is obviously a reaction and implies that we have problems. I also agree with Lefty that it's there for a reason. Perhaps we could replace the above text with something like this: "If someone in your talk is offended, please try to avoid a conversation about whether or not they should be offended. Remember our community is very diverse and while we all share a common mission to provide a free GNOME desktop to the world, we do not always share religions, politics and other views. Focus on the subject of your talk and stick to the issues being discussed without making them personal. As the speaker, you may have to remind the audience of this. While it's hard, do your best to do it in a neutral, non argumentative way. Suggest that topics not relevant to GNOME (raised by you or others in the audience) be moved to a more appropriate non-GNOME forum. If you need help, please contact the GNOME board or GNOME Foundation member. But don't worry! These problems do not happen very often - we are just trying to help you out if they do. Most audiences are very friendly and welcoming of topics about GNOME. Please go out and speak about GNOME and enjoy!" Perhaps we could link to a list of skills on how to deal with difficult questions as a speaker? I don't know of a page like that, but I've been taught a number of ways over the years, so I could put one together. Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Hey Stormy. > Perhaps we could replace the above text with something like this: > > "If someone in your talk is offended, please try to avoid a > conversation about whether or not they should be offended. Remember > our community is very diverse and while we all share a common mission > to provide a free GNOME desktop to the world, we do not always share > religions, politics and other views. Focus on the subject of your talk > and stick to the issues being discussed without making them personal. > As the speaker, you may have to remind the audience of this. While > it's hard, do your best to do it in a neutral, non argumentative way. > > Suggest that topics not relevant to GNOME (raised by you or others in > the audience) be moved to a more appropriate non-GNOME forum. If you > need help, please contact the GNOME board or GNOME Foundation member. > > But don't worry! These problems do not happen very often - we are just > trying to help you out if they do. Most audiences are very friendly > and welcoming of topics about GNOME. > > Please go out and speak about GNOME and enjoy!" +1 Thank you. --joanie ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 11:21 +0200, Patryk Zawadzki wrote: > It would be better if GNOME defined a precise set of rules (ie. "don't > mention religion"). And you might know - I rather liked Lefty's random talk on his buddhist pilgrimage at the last GUADEC, but Aaron's bacon-fest horribly offended my sensibilities [ or something ], and as for Miguel's historic "Unix Sucks" talk, it's hard to know where to begin un-twisting myself ;-) [or perhaps not]. > As for the hazy areas, common sense is a better > judge than a set of written rules. If someone does something grossly > inappropriate just don't invite them to further events. Quite; this is ultimately the best sanction; I assume it has been silently applied against the most egregious offenders, as it always has been. I'm sure lots of people worked very hard on trying to come up with a sane sounding policy ( and it does seem fairly mild - the punishment AFAIR being "a very hard stare" ;-). But it does seem a little silly to need a policy at all. Ultimately, I guess we need to accept and live with the fact that ~everyone is unbalanced in some way, and has some or other noxiously offensive opinion, and perhaps provide some interactive booing & hissing / sharp questions from the audience at times ;-) Regards, Michael. -- michael.me...@novell.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Lefty (石鏡 ) wrote: > On 6/25/10 8:30 AM, "Patryk Zawadzki" wrote: >> >> I bet >> at least one person in the audience is offended when they see the >> presenter using a Mac. Or sporting a Windows t-shirt. Or using an >> iPod. Or mentioning that Apple did something better than GNOME. >> "Security, seize and escort the speaker out of the building." :) > > By the way: I would certainly recommend that anyone who's offended by a > presenter using a Mac, wearing a Windows t-shirt, or both at the same time, > to take their concerns directly and immediately to the Board of Directors. > > I would suggest that the Board of Directors tell them to "Get a grip." > > Is it _that_ difficult to distinguish between the sort of offense that > someone like Celeste Lyn Paul, a KDE board member, expressed when she wrote > ( http://identi.ca/notice/6304540)... > > "Do men really think RMSs virgin joke at #gcds was not sexist? Very > disappointed in FLOSS comm chatter about this." I'd say it was more stupid than sexist. He planned it to be a religious joke but ended up with a pile of crap. > ...on the one hand, and the "offense" that someone who feels a speaker is > not being "pure" enough, or something, by using a "non-free-software- > movement-approved" piece of hardware, or wearing a t-shirt bearing the logo > of a "non-free-software-movement-approved" company, on the other? Do you see > no distinction between the two, Patryk? Are you trying to start a flame war, or are you just bored? Stop trying to convince me that I'm defending bad behavior as I'm not. I said the rules were too vague to be considered a policy. A person hating Mono or C# is just as covered as a person who is a target of racist comments. That's why the rules are bad. I'd add that if GNOME as a community needs a written "don't be a total jerk" policy, we should probably consider going to circus instead of the conferences ;) (rest of quotes removed to put out the flames) -- Patryk Zawadzki ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
The GNOME speaker guidelines were at least partly a reaction to my Saint IGNUcius comedy routine. So if I don't have a beef with these guidelines, why should anyone else? I am proud of my Saint IGNUcius routine. Thousands of people have laughed at it. The routine makes fun of people, especially Emacs users, but does not insult or attack anyone, not even Emacs users. It doesn't advocate doing anything to people by force -- not even teaching them Emacs (which is how one loses Emacs virginity). I don't think there's anything bad about it. But it does refer to sex and religion. If GNOME would rather not have such humor in its events, I can go along with that. If the community wants these guidelines, I support them. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Patryk seems to want to continue to pursue this discussion. I hadn't been planning to, after Sriram's message, but since there's an obvious interest... On 6/26/10 12:58 AM, "Patryk Zawadzki" wrote: > On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Lefty (石鏡 ) wrote: >> >> Is it _that_ difficult to distinguish between the sort of offense that >> someone like Celeste Lyn Paul, a KDE board member, expressed when she wrote >> ( http://identi.ca/notice/6304540)... >> >> "Do men really think RMSs virgin joke at #gcds was not sexist? Very >> disappointed in FLOSS comm chatter about this." > > I'd say it was more stupid than sexist. He planned it to be a > religious joke but ended up with a pile of crap. Well, Celeste and Chani and Matt and Matthew and Andre and Sandy and I and a whole bunch of others would say it was more sexist that stupid. Did you have a point in there? While we were unaware of his "plans", we certainly became aware of the "pile of crap", as Chani and Celeste's comments have shown Ah, wait: I see. You're saying that Celeste, and Chani and I and all the rest of us were _mistaken_ to be offended! Not having your keen insight into Mr. Stallman's _plans_, nor sufficient grasp of the history of Western religion in general, and Catholic doctrine in particular, we weren't sharp enough to get what Mr. Stallman was _really_ ridiculing, and―silly us!―we reacted in a totally inappropriate way! Wow. Thanks for clearing that up, Patryk. Will you be at the upcoming GUADEC to assist in interpreting the subtextual meanings of any presentations being given there? Clearly, I, and others, incapable of figuring out what people actually mean without your assistance. Silly us, to rely on what they _say_ rather than what they had _planned_. In light of this, I'd like to make a formal complaint to the Board against myself for being insufficiently psychic. I would, however, again like to ask the Board to add a guideline to the speaker's rules insisting that speakers must provide a detailed outline and bibliography describing what they're actually saying and what their "plans" are, so as to "avoid misunderstandings" in the future. As an example, a handout describing the "Cult of Mary", the Catholic Church's views on virginity, the history of "Saint INGUcius" and the "Church of EMACS" along with an explanation that―since if you're ridiculing religion you _can't_ be offensive to women, as people persist in explaining to me―despite appearances, anyone who might feel that the jokes were somewhat "sexist" would be mistaken, with a rundown of the reasoning behind it, and the advice that they should develop a sense of humor if they happen not to think the jokes funny. In fact, including some testimonials from some of the "thousands" who have laughed at this routine could have been quite helpful in convincing those of us who _did_ mistakenly feel offended that we were thoroughly in error for feeling that way! This could have saved a lot of discomfort and unhappiness last summer. I See A Great Need. Let's get serious: whether you say it was "more stupid", "more sexist", "more Lithuanian" or whatever, is fine for you. However, the fact is that the reactions I'm describing were not unique to me, nor are they any less relevant that your assessment―if you weren't present, they're likely _more_ relevant. Plenty of people felt similarly to the way that I do. You'd seem to want to either deny that we felt the way we did, or get us to somehow "admit" that our feeling the way we did was somehow "in error". Now, unless you want to stand up and tell all of us that we were simply _wrong_, that we cannot trust the evidence of our own senses and should rely on yours instead, I'm not sure what relevance your individual impressions have to do with anything. Just for clarity: were you actually present at GCDS? > Are you trying to start a flame war, or are you just bored? Stop > trying to convince me that I'm defending bad behavior as I'm not. No, and I'm not suggesting that you are, either, appearances to the contrary notwithstanding. I'm not trying to convince you of anything: I'm trying to explain to you that your perceptions of the situation (First-hand? Second-hand? Third-hand?) are not authoritative with respect to others. You'd seem, however, to be trying very hard to convince _me_ (or others, I suppose) that I was completely wrong-headed in taking any offense at all. > I said the rules were too vague to be considered a policy. A person > hating Mono or C# is just as covered as a person who is a target of > racist comments. That's why the rules are bad. If someone is "hating" Mono in a way that's disruptive and divisive and offensive, then that's a problem. If an anti-Mono speaker, for example, wouldn't let a pro-Mono questioner even get a question out before telling them they're wrong, that's would be a problem. (Oh, wait! That happened, too, didn't it?) > I'd add that if GNOME as a community needs a written "don't be a total
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/26/10 7:09 AM, "Richard Stallman" wrote: > > The GNOME speaker guidelines were at least partly a reaction to my > Saint IGNUcius comedy routine. So if I don't have a beef with these > guidelines, why should anyone else? Good question. It seems some folks are intent on "defending" you, whether you're looking for defense or not. I've had a bunch of 'em email my managers, our clients, and uninvolved members of my family, over my disagreements on this issue. You may recall that I wrote you privately about this about three months ago, and you saw no problem with it at the time, but perhaps you've reconsidered that. Asking them to knock it off seems reasonable to me, certainly. > I am proud of my Saint IGNUcius routine. I am, in all honesty, sorry to hear that. I feel that's a shame, myself. > Thousands of people have laughed at it. Keen student of world history that you are, you're surely aware that tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, laughed (and cheered and applauded) at each and every beheading conducted during the Reign of Terror. I guess by this metric, if a speaker wants to throw in a guillotining or two, well, why not? As long as people laugh, right? > The routine makes fun of people, especially Emacs > users, but does not insult or attack anyone, not even Emacs users. As I've shown, opinions varied. Celeste Lyn Paul felt insulted. Chani Armitage felt more at risk of being attacked. I felt offended. Thanks for making it clear that our various feelings in this matter were in fact groundless, and should not be considered as being material to, or indicative of, anything. See, from where I was sitting, the routine _seemed_ to be making fun of women in particular as some sort of technical ignorami, helplessly waiting around for some big, strong _male_ hacker to explain to them the wonders of EMACS. Surely, "virginity" is a small, even insignificant, thing to trade for some awesome knowledge and power. It's easy to see why such a message would achieve a level of popularity with your typical "FLOSS community conference" audience. By the same token, I personally _believed_ (mistakenly, apparently) that I could well imagine why a woman in attendance, outnumbered by men at perhaps a ratio of 40-to-1, might be made just a _wee_ bit uncomfortable by that notion. Evidently, however, that's a lot harder for yourself, and others, to envisage, thus conclusively demonstrating my (and Celeste's, and Chani's, and Matt's, and Matthew's, and Andre's, and Sandy's, and...) error in this matter. > It > doesn't advocate doing anything to people by force -- not even > teaching them Emacs (which is how one loses Emacs virginity). Well, see? That's why I keep asking for a handout. I've never heard of "relieving" a woman's "virginity" through teaching her how to use a 40-year-old text editor. I'm also unclear how a unilateral "Holy Duty" to impose something, anything, on some nonconsenting other doesn't amount to "doing something by force". As I've said, I was taught to always say, "May I?" first. There was no mention of anything like that at GCDS. Just your "Holy Duty". > I don't think there's anything bad about it. I'd intuited that, yes. Again, a shame, in my view. > But it does refer to sex and religion. Well, at least we're on the same page there. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Richard Stallman wrote: > I am proud of my Saint IGNUcius routine. Thousands of people have > laughed at it. The routine makes fun of people, especially Emacs > users, but does not insult or attack anyone, not even Emacs users. It > > Hi Richard, Like all things our community continues to evolve and what might be great back in the good ol days might not be now. Historically, women and minorities have not had a large role in free software community. So that joke might have worked with a lot of people back then but not so much now. Since you're a celebrity people are willing to probably overlook such things that might normally offend them. Of course the opposite is true as well, because you're a celebrity people might be even more offended depending on how sensitive they feel your role is. People's view of sex around this globe is pretty diverse so it is always a minefield when you combine anything with sex in a diversified environment. If you're going to go there, I'd take a good look at your audience. :-) sri ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
_Very_ well said, Sriram. Let's hope that Mr. Stallman can hear you where he's proven unable to hear me. __ Sent from my Steve-Phone On Jun 26, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: > > > On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Richard Stallman wrote: > I am proud of my Saint IGNUcius routine. Thousands of people have > laughed at it. The routine makes fun of people, especially Emacs > users, but does not insult or attack anyone, not even Emacs users. It > > > Hi Richard, > > Like all things our community continues to evolve and what might be great > back in the good ol days might not be now. Historically, women and > minorities have not had a large role in free software community. So that > joke might have worked with a lot of people back then but not so much now. > Since you're a celebrity people are willing to probably overlook such things > that might normally offend them. Of course the opposite is true as well, > because you're a celebrity people might be even more offended depending on > how sensitive they feel your role is. > > People's view of sex around this globe is pretty diverse so it is always a > minefield when you combine anything with sex in a diversified environment. > If you're going to go there, I'd take a good look at your audience. :-) > > sri > > ___ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Lefty, 2010/6/26 Lefty (石鏡 ) : > Patryk seems to want to continue to pursue this discussion. I hadn't been > planning to, after Sriram's message, but since there's an obvious > interest... > This is not a Lefty vs Patryk debate nor a Lefty vs Richard debate. Please stick to discussing the issues and not attacking people. Your emails and your tone discourage other people from participating in these discussions. Please help us make the Foundation list a welcoming place to discuss GNOME issues. Thanks in advance for your help. Best, Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
> minorities have not had a large role in free software community. So that > joke might have worked with a lot of people back then but not so much now. > Since you're a celebrity people are willing to probably overlook such > things that might normally offend them. Of course the opposite is true as > well, because you're a celebrity people might be even more offended > depending on how sensitive they feel your role is. Worse unfortunately, because he is a celebrity people will copy what he does and think its 'cool'. Which when it comes to sexist jokes is not what the free software community needs. Richard, remember the freedom to modify code requires the knowledge to do it - which is something you mostly learn and share within that community by being part of it. Driving half of the human race out of that community though behaviour they find obnoxious and threatening isn't just a matter of poor taste, its a direct attack on the very freedoms the FSF and GPL are meant to be about. It's not a question of what the law permits but what is ethically right. Is it ethically right for the leader of the free software movement to drive people away from free software ? We want to replace the proprietary software world with free software for all, not for mostly male, thick skinned folks because everyone else feels unwelcome and threatened - whether for cultural or other reasons. Alan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Stone Mirror wrote: > Again, very well said, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Alan. > > It honestly baffles me that some people seem to have such difficulty grasping > what seems so transparently obvious to me. *Stop* making it personal. Stop thanking individuals. Stop insulting others' intelligence. (Saying you agree is one thing. Thanking them like they did you a favor is another.) Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Again, very well said, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Alan. It honestly baffles me that some people seem to have such difficulty grasping what seems so transparently obvious to me. Maybe it's the training that every single Apple employee was required to take. They "got" this stuff twenty years ago. _Thirty_ percent of the engineering team I managed at Apple were women. __ Sent from my Steve-Phone On Jun 26, 2010, at 5:19 PM, Alan Cox wrote: >> minorities have not had a large role in free software community. So that >> joke might have worked with a lot of people back then but not so much now. >> Since you're a celebrity people are willing to probably overlook such >> things that might normally offend them. Of course the opposite is true as >> well, because you're a celebrity people might be even more offended >> depending on how sensitive they feel your role is. > > Worse unfortunately, because he is a celebrity people will copy what he > does and think its 'cool'. Which when it comes to sexist jokes is not > what the free software community needs. > > Richard, remember the freedom to modify code requires the knowledge to do > it - which is something you mostly learn and share within that community > by being part of it. Driving half of the human race out of that community > though behaviour they find obnoxious and threatening isn't just a matter > of poor taste, its a direct attack on the very freedoms the FSF and GPL > are meant to be about. It's not a question of what the law permits but > what is ethically right. Is it ethically right for the leader of the free > software movement to drive people away from free software ? > > We want to replace the proprietary software world with free software for > all, not for mostly male, thick skinned folks because everyone else feels > unwelcome and threatened - whether for cultural or other reasons. > > Alan > ___ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On 6/26/10 5:45 PM, "Stormy Peters" wrote: > On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Stone Mirror wrote: >> Again, very well said, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Alan. >> >> It honestly baffles me that some people seem to have such difficulty grasping >> what seems so transparently obvious to me. > > *Stop* making it personal. Stop thanking individuals. Stop insulting > others' intelligence. > > (Saying you agree is one thing. Thanking them like they did you a > favor is another.) Stormy, at this point, I frankly haven't got the slightest idea what you're talking about. I didn't make _anything_ personal, other than my thanks to Alan. Please stop. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Don't be obtuse. It is perfectly clear what Stormy is requesting from you. I am new to this community and I'm afraid I see more hostility from you than the people you're castigating for being unwelcoming. Please let's put this argument in the past and focus on how to make Gnome more attractive to more people in future. Jeremy Allison On Jun 26, 2010 6:03 PM, "Lefty (石鏡 )" wrote: > On 6/26/10 5:45 PM, "Stormy Peters" wrote: > >> On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Stone Mirror wrote: >>> Again, very well said, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you, Alan. >>> >>> It honestly baffles me that some people seem to have such difficulty grasping >>> what seems so transparently obvious to me. >> >> *Stop* making it personal. Stop thanking individuals. Stop insulting >> others' intelligence. >> >> (Saying you agree is one thing. Thanking them like they did you a >> favor is another.) > > Stormy, at this point, I frankly haven't got the slightest idea what you're > talking about. I didn't make _anything_ personal, other than my thanks to > Alan. Please stop. > > > > > ___ > foundation-list mailing list > foundation-list@gnome.org > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 21:22 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: > On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 5:25 PM, Joanmarie Diggs > wrote: > > > > As a matter of fact, personally I am not jazzed by the entire ending: > > > >Please keep in mind that the GNOME Foundation is not the right > >forum to debate whether someone should feel offended or not; you > >should simply avoid offending people even if you do not share > >their views. These guidelines do not constitute censorship since > >you have many other forums and opportunities to say whatever you > >wish. > > > > It is neither "positive" nor "welcoming" to would-be speakers -- and > > thus contrasts rather starkly with bullet point 1 under "Guidelines." > > I agree. And it is obviously a reaction and implies that we have problems. > > I also agree with Lefty that it's there for a reason. > > Perhaps we could replace the above text with something like this: > > "If someone in your talk is offended, please try to avoid a > conversation about whether or not they should be offended. Remember > our community is very diverse and while we all share a common mission > to provide a free GNOME desktop to the world, we do not always share > religions, politics and other views. Focus on the subject of your talk > and stick to the issues being discussed without making them personal. > As the speaker, you may have to remind the audience of this. While > it's hard, do your best to do it in a neutral, non argumentative way. > > Suggest that topics not relevant to GNOME (raised by you or others in > the audience) be moved to a more appropriate non-GNOME forum. If you > need help, please contact the GNOME board or GNOME Foundation member. > > But don't worry! These problems do not happen very often - we are just > trying to help you out if they do. Most audiences are very friendly > and welcoming of topics about GNOME. > > Please go out and speak about GNOME and enjoy!" The last paragraph, which I first suggested, was initially very short. I think it was effective without appearing too important. It's main aim was to prevent pointless distracting discussion. That's still possible if we don't turn the paragraph itself into an essay. It's useless to expand the text so much, attempting to explain the explanation, with extra explanation, just repeating the core text with slightly different waffling text. The document should be simple and meaningful, pointing out simple common sense. Please don't ruin it. > Perhaps we could link to a list of skills on how to deal with > difficult questions as a speaker? I don't know of a page like that, > but I've been taught a number of ways over the years, so I could put > one together. Again, I think that's making too much of it. I don't believe we want our speakers to read a huge manual on how to behave. We do want to remind them to be reasonable, and we want attendees to know that we have basic standards. -- murr...@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
Driving half of the human race out of that community though behaviour they find obnoxious and threatening That would be a very bad thing, and I am not doing that. My Saint IGNUcius routine is not driving anyone out of the free software movement. Negative reactions have been rare, and I made it gender-neutral a year ago to make extra sure. So please, away with the exaggerations. (By the way, supposed quotes that have been posted in this thread are distortions; they don't match what I said.) There is also no reason to discuss it here, because in GNOME events I will follow the GNOME speaker guidelines. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:37 AM, Murray Cumming wrote: > On Fri, 2010-06-25 at 21:22 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: > > > > "If someone in your talk is offended, please try to avoid a > > conversation about whether or not they should be offended. Remember > > our community is very diverse and while we all share a common mission > > to provide a free GNOME desktop to the world, we do not always share > > religions, politics and other views. Focus on the subject of your talk > > and stick to the issues being discussed without making them personal. > > As the speaker, you may have to remind the audience of this. While > > it's hard, do your best to do it in a neutral, non argumentative way. > > > > Suggest that topics not relevant to GNOME (raised by you or others in > > the audience) be moved to a more appropriate non-GNOME forum. If you > > need help, please contact the GNOME board or GNOME Foundation member. > > > > But don't worry! These problems do not happen very often - we are just > > trying to help you out if they do. Most audiences are very friendly > > and welcoming of topics about GNOME. > > > > Please go out and speak about GNOME and enjoy!" > > The last paragraph, which I first suggested, was initially very short. I > think it was effective without appearing too important. It's main aim > was to prevent pointless distracting discussion. That's still possible > if we don't turn the paragraph itself into an essay. > > It's useless to expand the text so much, attempting to explain the > explanation, with extra explanation, just repeating the core text with > slightly different waffling text. The document should be simple and > meaningful, pointing out simple common sense. Please don't ruin it. > > I'm willing to make it shorter if the sentiment is correct. We could also have a very short speaker guidelines that doesn't include either the first paragraph nor this replacement text. It could be accompanied by more verbose explanations with pointers to other information like the GNOME presentation template, other GNOME presentations, help on improving your speaking skills, etc. Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: GNOME Speaker Guidelines
On Mon, 2010-06-28 at 13:58 -0600, Stormy Peters wrote: > > I'm willing to make it shorter if the sentiment is correct. We could > also have a very short speaker guidelines that doesn't include either > the first paragraph nor this replacement text. It could be accompanied > by more verbose explanations with pointers to other information like > the GNOME presentation template, other GNOME presentations, help on > improving your speaking skills, etc. Well, the whole thing is itself just a secondary comment on the code of conduct. Though I worked on making the speaker guidelines shorter and clearer, I have never been particularly convinced that they are necessary instead of just pointing speakers at the code of conduct (I do think there is a problem with some speakers). I certainly don't think we need an explanation of the explanation of the explanation. -- murr...@murrayc.com www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
