[fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Ales Katona]

I think the simplest and perhaps most important change to get better PR 
for both Lazarus and FPC is the web page. It needs to be more "wow" 
style. News have to be a bit propagandistic. A FAQ is IMHO required with 
first questions like:


1. Is Free Pascal/Lazarus really free?
2. Can I use Free Pascal/Lazarus for commercial development?
3. Are there any real world applications made with Free Pascal/Lazarus?
4. Why should I use Free Pascal/Lazarus?
5. Isn't Free Software equal to crappy software?
etc.

In other words, FAQ for managers. I'm not saying you should scrap the 
old one. Just put the technical questions a bit lower.


I can write a few FAQ entries in plain text but I can't make a dynamic 
webpage(perhaps CGI? :) )


Ales
___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Adriaan van Os]

Ales Katona wrote:

I think the simplest and perhaps most important change to get better 
PR for both Lazarus and FPC is the web page. It needs to be more "wow" 
style. News have to be a bit propagandistic. A FAQ is IMHO required 
with first questions like:


1. Is Free Pascal/Lazarus really free?
2. Can I use Free Pascal/Lazarus for commercial development?
3. Are there any real world applications made with Free Pascal/Lazarus?
4. Why should I use Free Pascal/Lazarus?
5. Isn't Free Software equal to crappy software?
etc.

In other words, FAQ for managers. I'm not saying you should scrap the 
old one. Just put the technical questions a bit lower.


Beware me ! Managers ! The lowest species on earth !

Yeah - and then the "dynamic" website for managers, I guess that's any 
website that can that only be viewed with MS IE 5.5 .. ?


Well - here is the special link for any manager 
.


Regards,

Adriaan van Os

P.S.
Here is a text, specially for managers, applicable for any tech project:

Blah blah ... de facto standard ... Blah blah ... highly committed ... 
Blah bah ... industrial strength ... Blah blah ... world class support 
... Blah blah ... handholding ... Blah blah ... support contract  
Blah blah ... even more handholding ... Blah blah  cutting edge 
technology  Blah blah  etcetera.


___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Marco van de Voort]

> > 1. Is Free Pascal/Lazarus really free?
> > 2. Can I use Free Pascal/Lazarus for commercial development?
> > 3. Are there any real world applications made with Free Pascal/Lazarus?
> > 4. Why should I use Free Pascal/Lazarus?
> > 5. Isn't Free Software equal to crappy software?
> > etc.
> >
> > In other words, FAQ for managers. I'm not saying you should scrap the 
> > old one. Just put the technical questions a bit lower.
> 
> Beware me ! Managers ! The lowest species on earth !
> 
> Yeah - and then the "dynamic" website for managers, I guess that's any 
> website that can that only be viewed with MS IE 5.5 .. ?
> 
> Well - here is the special link for any manager 
> .
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Adriaan van Os
> 
> P.S.
> Here is a text, specially for managers, applicable for any tech project:
> 
> Blah blah ... de facto standard ... Blah blah ... highly committed ... 
> Blah bah ... industrial strength ... Blah blah ... world class support 
> ... Blah blah ... handholding ... Blah blah ... support contract  
> Blah blah ... even more handholding ... Blah blah  cutting edge 
> technology  Blah blah  etcetera.

This is incorrect. You miss the absolutely most important part. A
NDA/license/disclaimer that claims that you have no right to absolutely
anything, including support, fixes, up/downgrade rights etc, compensation
for lost time when they come to check your license compliance etc.


___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Marcel Martin]

Ales Katona wrote:

5. Isn't Free Software equal to crappy software?


You're right. About Proprietary Software, there is no need to ask the
question, the answer is obvious.

mm

___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Michalis Kamburelis]

Ales Katona wrote:
I think the simplest and perhaps most important change to get better PR 
for both Lazarus and FPC is the web page. It needs to be more "wow" 
style. News have to be a bit propagandistic. A FAQ is IMHO required with 
first questions like:


1. Is Free Pascal/Lazarus really free?


The "freeness" of FreePascal is already advertised in a lot of places, 
including the very name "FreePascal". Current FAQ mentions (more than 
once) that the compiler is GPLed. I don't think there's any need to 
advertise this more.



2. Can I use Free Pascal/Lazarus for commercial development?


This is the 4th question of current FAQ. And I assume that you actually 
wanted to say "closed source", this is not the same thing as "commercial".



3. Are there any real world applications made with Free Pascal/Lazarus?


I guess that even a "manager" is able to type "fpc" or "lazarus" into 
google.



4. Why should I use Free Pascal/Lazarus?


There's a special page "Advantages" on www.freepascal.org devoted to 
this question.



5. Isn't Free Software equal to crappy software?


Of course it's total crap. But we're just a bunch of poor windoze lusers 
and we can't do anything better. So we devote our full time to maintain 
this miserable piece of software, this ugly webpage and this lousy FAQ.


I'm sorry, I could not resist to say this. :)

Seriously: I think that it's obvious (even to the "managers") that if 
you maintain a FAQ for some software, then you don't think it's crappy.



etc.

In other words, FAQ for managers. I'm not saying you should scrap the 
old one. Just put the technical questions a bit lower.


I can write a few FAQ entries in plain text but I can't make a dynamic 
webpage(perhaps CGI? :) )


Ales
___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel


___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Ales Katona]

Michalis Kamburelis wrote:


Ales Katona wrote:



1. Is Free Pascal/Lazarus really free?



The "freeness" of FreePascal is already advertised in a lot of places, 
including the very name "FreePascal". Current FAQ mentions (more than 
once) that the compiler is GPLed. I don't think there's any need to 
advertise this more.



Perhaps


2. Can I use Free Pascal/Lazarus for commercial development?



This is the 4th question of current FAQ. And I assume that you 
actually wanted to say "closed source", this is not the same thing as 
"commercial".


If you look at forums and mailing lists, NO people DON'T get it. You 
need to explicitly tell them YES YOU CAN STATIC LINK WITH OUR ENHANCED 
LGPL. Honestly the thing in the FAQ is good for lawyers only.





3. Are there any real world applications made with Free Pascal/Lazarus?



I guess that even a "manager" is able to type "fpc" or "lazarus" into 
google.



And he'll find a bunch of fanboy websites.


4. Why should I use Free Pascal/Lazarus?



Which is horribly outdated and utterly useless. Also it only specializes 
on comparing FP dialect of Pascal with other languages.
One half of currently listed advantages is basicly a pissing contest 
against C/C++ and the other is saying "we got OOP/other features too you 
know".





5. Isn't Free Software equal to crappy software?



Of course it's total crap. But we're just a bunch of poor windoze 
lusers and we can't do anything better. So we devote our full time to 
maintain this miserable piece of software, this ugly webpage and this 
lousy FAQ.


I'm sorry, I could not resist to say this. :)

Seriously: I think that it's obvious (even to the "managers") that if 
you maintain a FAQ for some software, then you don't think it's crappy.


I'll add a FAQ to my page and see.

The FAQ on FPC currently is relativly good for technical questions. But 
some basic questions asked over and over on forums and lists simply 
aren't there or are answered inapropriatly(for the masses..)
Also note I speak for BOTH projects. IMHO they should merge a bit more 
as Lazarus requires a certain RTL of compiler to be able to produce things.

___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Michalis Kamburelis]

Ales Katona wrote:

Michalis Kamburelis wrote:


Ales Katona wrote:


[...]



2. Can I use Free Pascal/Lazarus for commercial development?




This is the 4th question of current FAQ. And I assume that you 
actually wanted to say "closed source", this is not the same thing as 
"commercial".



If you look at forums and mailing lists, NO people DON'T get it. You 
need to explicitly tell them YES YOU CAN STATIC LINK WITH OUR ENHANCED 
LGPL. Honestly the thing in the FAQ is good for lawyers only.




Reading FPC and Lazarus mailing lists, and I don't see such problems. 
And I understood the FAQ, even though IANAL. There's a text


  "It is therefore possible to create closed source or proprietary 
software using Free Pascal."


I think that this is even more explicit (and understandable to 
non-programmers) than your proposed "Yes you can static link with our 
enhanced LGPL".





3. Are there any real world applications made with Free Pascal/Lazarus?




I guess that even a "manager" is able to type "fpc" or "lazarus" into 
google.



And he'll find a bunch of fanboy websites.



So what answer would you propose for the FAQ question "Are there any 
real world applications made with Free Pascal/Lazarus" ? A huge list of 
every program that was ever compiled with FPC ? A short list of "chosen 
projects" ? Who will decide and maintain the list of "most bright 
projects developed using FPC+Lazarus" ?



4. Why should I use Free Pascal/Lazarus?




Which is horribly outdated and utterly useless. Also it only specializes 
on comparing FP dialect of Pascal with other languages.
One half of currently listed advantages is basicly a pissing contest 
against C/C++ and the other is saying "we got OOP/other features too you 
know".



[...]

Then propose a better text / feature list for "Advantages" page...

Michalis
___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Michael Van Canneyt]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2005, Michalis Kamburelis wrote:

So what answer would you propose for the FAQ question "Are there any real 
world applications made with Free Pascal/Lazarus" ? A huge list of every 
program that was ever compiled with FPC ? A short list of "chosen projects" ? 
Who will decide and maintain the list of "most bright projects developed 
using FPC+Lazarus" ?


Have you seen the gallery page ?

http://www.freepascal.org/gallery.html

Michael.
___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho]

On 11/23/05, Michalis Kamburelis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 3. Are there any real world applications made with Free Pascal/Lazarus?
>
> I guess that even a "manager" is able to type "fpc" or "lazarus" into
> google.

Just typed both on google and found many links about the compiler and
the IDE, but not about programs based on them. This is pretty obvious.
When you create a program you don't advertise: CREATED WITH
LAZARUS!!! At best a small link.

The user doesn't care, doesn't know what Lazarus (or any other
programming tool) is and doesn't want to know. He just wants a good
software.

I propose adding this question to the FAQ and have a link to a list of
commercial programs created with FPC/Lazarus on the wiki, because the
wiki is much easier to update.
--
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[L505]

> >>
> >>> 3. Are there any real world applications made with Free Pascal/Lazarus?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I guess that even a "manager" is able to type "fpc" or "lazarus" into
> >> google.
> >>
> > And he'll find a bunch of fanboy websites.

True.. we can create directories more like Torry.net instead of things like 
PasWiki
which sometimes are biased and fanboy-ish ;-) I guess I think its a good idea to
outsource the web development to people like me, you, and freepascal users - so
Michael, Daniel, Jonas, Florian, Peter, and all those others can work on the 
compiler
and documentation instead of website designs.

>
> So what answer would you propose for the FAQ question "Are there any
> real world applications made with Free Pascal/Lazarus" ? A huge list of
> every program that was ever compiled with FPC ? A short list of "chosen
> projects" ? Who will decide and maintain the list of "most bright
> projects developed using FPC+Lazarus" ?

"Contributed Programs" section. Let the users manage the directory (outsourcing 
the
work, just like how "contributed units" section is outsourced and requires 
little/no
maintenance from FPC team).

___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Ales Katona]

Reading FPC and Lazarus mailing lists, and I don't see such problems. 
And I understood the FAQ, even though IANAL. There's a text


Read again. Lazarus list had a very long discussion about LCL and LGPLv2



  "It is therefore possible to create closed source or proprietary 
software using Free Pascal."


I think that this is even more explicit (and understandable to 
non-programmers) than your proposed "Yes you can static link with our 
enhanced LGPL".


Perhaps, but people evidently don't get it.



So what answer would you propose for the FAQ question "Are there any 
real world applications made with Free Pascal/Lazarus" ? A huge list 
of every program that was ever compiled with FPC ? A short list of 
"chosen projects" ? Who will decide and maintain the list of "most 
bright projects developed using FPC+Lazarus" ?


This selection is done already. See news on main fpc page.



Then propose a better text / feature list for "Advantages" page...


I will try my best.


Ales
___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Michalis Kamburelis]

Ales Katona wrote:


So what answer would you propose for the FAQ question "Are there any 
real world applications made with Free Pascal/Lazarus" ? A huge list 
of every program that was ever compiled with FPC ? A short list of 
"chosen projects" ? Who will decide and maintain the list of "most 
bright projects developed using FPC+Lazarus" ?


This selection is done already. See news on main fpc page.


Hm, after giving it some thought, and after seeing 
[http://www.freepascal.org/gallery.html] link, I have to agree: such 
selection looks nice.


Michalis
___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Nikolay Nikolov]

Adriaan van Os wrote:


P.S.
Here is a text, specially for managers, applicable for any tech project:

Blah blah ... de facto standard ... Blah blah ... highly committed ... 
Blah bah ... industrial strength ... Blah blah ... world class support 
... Blah blah ... handholding ... Blah blah ... support contract  
Blah blah ... even more handholding ... Blah blah  cutting edge 
technology  Blah blah  etcetera.


You forgot 'scalable enterprise solutions' :)

___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Johann Glaser]

Hi!

> > This selection is done already. See news on main fpc page.
> 
> Hm, after giving it some thought, and after seeing 
> [http://www.freepascal.org/gallery.html] link, I have to agree: such 
> selection looks nice.

Indeed, nice page and truly impressive for people searching for a proof
that FPC is ready for real-world applications. I didn't even know of
this Gallery page and I couldn't find any link to it from the
www.freepascal.org page. Probably looking around very carefully and
reading lots of pages would unveil a link, but this is not what PR
means.

So I fully agree to Ales that the FPC homepage needs a "wow" style.
Despite I do like clear, simple homepages I don't think that this gives
us good PR. Without offending Michael and others for their effort
creating and maintaining the website, I think these pages induce the
impression that FPC is a tiny project, has unreliable release cycles and
progress, it is "just" from hobbyists for their own pleasure and FPC is
only used by some frugal enthusiasts.

Propagating this impression is _not_ what good PR is about. :-)

On the other hand, Lazarus' home page looks loaded and complex.

In the ongoing discussion I read some funny statements (ranting about
managers, ...) and some kind of ignorant statements (this and that is
already ..., just look there and there, just read the mailing list, just
type "..." into Google, ...). I'm sure most of the necessary information
is already available, probably some more "easy to read" things (like
Ales' FAQ proposal) should be added. But: This information is hidden
like in a maze! FPC should _not_ require potential interrests to invest
lots of energy and time to get valuable information. FPC should provide
this easily and directly accessable. It is not the interrested's job to
search for information but it is our's to present it!

The main disadvantage of the current website are the bad navigation
scheme and the simplistic layout. I'd therefore propose to take the
following steps:
 1. Collect what information should be on the main page: focus on
managers and busy visitors, but do not forget on technicians,
enthusiasts, purists. Do not classify this list, don't
concentrate on structure, hierarchy, ..., just collect.
 2. sort this list, give it a structure
 3. work out a navigation scheme of the new website (from the
structured list)
 4. work out a design and look-and-feel for the new website which is
clear, stylish, "wow", but not loaded.
 5. bring structure, content and design togehter
 6. enjoy and watch interrests

Ok, this is a very simple path, I'm not sure it if works and if enough
man power can be raised. OTOH I'm sure most ideas for the hard part (1)
have already been said and/or can be found on the current web site.

Any suggestions, comments, ideas?

Bye
  Hansi


___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Daniël Mantione]

Op Sat, 3 Dec 2005, schreef Johann Glaser:

> Hi!
> 
> > > This selection is done already. See news on main fpc page.
> > 
> > Hm, after giving it some thought, and after seeing 
> > [http://www.freepascal.org/gallery.html] link, I have to agree: such 
> > selection looks nice.
> 
> Indeed, nice page and truly impressive for people searching for a proof
> that FPC is ready for real-world applications. I didn't even know of
> this Gallery page and I couldn't find any link to it from the
> www.freepascal.org page. Probably looking around very carefully and
> reading lots of pages would unveil a link, but this is not what PR
> means.

That is because if you make such a gallery, it should be really good, I 
consider it currently still too small. We need to add more projects so we 
can put it on-line.

Daniël___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel

Re: [fpc-devel] PR advancement

[Ales Katona]

So I fully agree to Ales that the FPC homepage needs a "wow" style.
Despite I do like clear, simple homepages I don't think that this gives
us good PR. Without offending Michael and others for their effort
creating and maintaining the website, I think these pages induce the
impression that FPC is a tiny project, has unreliable release cycles and
progress, it is "just" from hobbyists for their own pleasure and FPC is
only used by some frugal enthusiasts.
 

I wouldn't say it needs to be complicated or "flash-full". I personaly 
hate the full-of-flash crappy slow
sites no matter how cool they look. But the current page simply looks 
like some 15 year old's homepage made
as school project. Nothing personal here, I mean the whole thing is HUGE 
and there's really nice technical
functionality but the look is simply "ugh". It needs a bit more "edgy 
and colorful" look.


I think word can make it better: CSS


The main disadvantage of the current website are the bad navigation
scheme and the simplistic layout. I'd therefore propose to take the
following steps:
1. Collect what information should be on the main page: focus on
   managers and busy visitors, but do not forget on technicians,
   enthusiasts, purists. Do not classify this list, don't
   concentrate on structure, hierarchy, ..., just collect.
2. sort this list, give it a structure
3. work out a navigation scheme of the new website (from the
   structured list)
4. work out a design and look-and-feel for the new website which is
   clear, stylish, "wow", but not loaded.
5. bring structure, content and design togehter
6. enjoy and watch interrests

Ok, this is a very simple path, I'm not sure it if works and if enough
man power can be raised. OTOH I'm sure most ideas for the hard part (1)
have already been said and/or can be found on the current web site.

Any suggestions, comments, ideas?

Bye
 Hansi
 



Agreed to an extent. Some things are good as they are only change 
required is the style.

Some are truly "hidden" behind not-so-logical paths(links).

This is all a huge IMHO ofcourse, by no means do I wish to undermine the 
works of all people

who already did what is done for FREE.

Ales

___
fpc-devel maillist  -  fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org
http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel