Visio flowchart into Frame

[Jan Homan]

Using pdfFLY (available on Unix,Linux and Windows) you convert any graphics 
drawing saved in PostScript/PDF file
to FrameMaker MIF native format.
See http://www.visual-integrity.com for more information.

Jan Homan
Visual Integrity
Square One bv
http://www.visual-integrity.com  
http://www.square1.nl  

Question about the hyperlink from the LOF to the figure

[Shlomo Perets]

Janice,

You wrote:

>Thanks, Shlomo. I now understand it better now, and I think my department 
>is fine with it opening to the top of the page at this time.   However, 
>when I changed the Reference Page from:  gotopage 
><$relfilename>:<$pagenum> to gotoObjectId <$relfilename>:<$ObjectType> 
><$ObjectId>, it didn't seem to work.  Did I do something wrong?

The
gotoObjectId <$relfilename>:<$ObjectType> <$ObjectId>
syntax is correct.

openObjectId <$relfilename>:<$ObjectType> <$ObjectId>
will do the same when going from FM to PDF.

When editing the reference page, make sure to have View > Text Symbols 
turned on. Also, make sure you edit the "right" *ActiveLOF paragraph (in 
some templates, there is more than one instance, only one of which is 
active). If you cannot figure out what is wrong, please send me the LOF file.


Shlomo Perets

MicroType, http://www.microtype.com * ToolbarPlus Express for FrameMaker
FrameMaker/Acrobat training & consulting * FrameMaker-to-Acrobat 
TimeSavers/Assistants

Visio flowchart into Frame

[Ron Teplitz]

Ron wrote :

> Can I import a Visio flowchart into Frame 7 Solaris and retain the
> live links? If not, how can I do it? Do I need Window Frame?


What do you mean by 'live links'? 


Harro de Jong

I'm told you can make a link in Visio so when you click on something, another f
ile opens, like with a Hypertext marker in Frame. I want to preserve links from
 the Visio doc to external files when the Visio doc gets imported into Frame. I
 guess that has to be Windows Frame since Frame 7 Solaris won't import Visio fi
les. 

Ron

Visio flowchart into Frame

[Art Campbell]

Ron, I think it's going to depend a lot on what your final form
deliverable is --
FM, .PDF, HTML, something else... I haven't played with it, but I'd
guess that .PDF
may support it and I'd be surprised if HTML did because you'd have to
convert to another
format that would likely throw away the link info. Probably have to
redo it as an image map under whatever graphic you end up with.

Art

On 6/29/06, Ron Teplitz  wrote:
>
> Ron wrote :
>
> > Can I import a Visio flowchart into Frame 7 Solaris and retain the
> > live links? If not, how can I do it? Do I need Window Frame?
>
>
> What do you mean by 'live links'?
>
>
> Harro de Jong
>
> I'm told you can make a link in Visio so when you click on something, another 
> f
> ile opens, like with a Hypertext marker in Frame. I want to preserve links 
> from
>  the Visio doc to external files when the Visio doc gets imported into Frame. 
> I
>  guess that has to be Windows Frame since Frame 7 Solaris won't import Visio 
> fi
> les.
>
> Ron
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
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>


-- 
Art Campbell art.campbell at 
gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
   and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358

table anchors - best practices?

[Stuart Rogers]

Karen Mardahl wrote:

> I am starting to pick up on this negative number trick. For my table
> anchor, I had settled on a font at 7pt (I like seeing that tag!), and
> the para catalog defaulted to line space 8 pt. No space above or
> below. My tables are set to 0 pt above. The white space between a text
> block and a table is then just from the table anchor (plus a bit from
> the regular body tag, I think.) I had thought it looked a wee bit too
> tiny, so I will experiment some more, based on the numbers discussed
> here. I am doing pioneer work here, so the nice people who kindly
> responded here have now provided me with some sales arguments for
> adding a table anchor to our catalogs. Thank you very much!!

The main advantage of the "negative number trick" is that if a table 
happens to flow to the top of a page, there will be no white space above 
it. Without the trick, you'll get white space between your top margin 
and your table -- not a good thing.

s.

-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in 
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification 
for selfishness."

John Kenneth Galbraith, 1908-2006
"The smartest export Canada ever sent to the United States."


Get Firefox!
http://tinyurl.com/8q9c5

FW: Print book - separate print jobs

[Wim Hooghwinkel (Scriptware)]

When printing a book to separate pdf files (one pdf for each file in
book) FM adds the book name before the file name: xxbook(file1  etc.

Can this behaviour be changed somewhere, so that the print file (pdf)
has only the file name without the book name?

Met vriendelijke groet/Kind regards,
Wim Hooghwinkel 
Wim Hooghwinkel
DTP and XML Manager T: +31 (0)23 548 48 84
F: +31 (0)23 548 48 85  wimh at scriptware.nl

Print book - separate print jobs

[Spreadbury, David]

In the Print Book dialog under Save Book As:, select Separate File for
Each Document. This will give you separate .ps files for each chapter in
your book.

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+david.spreadbury=tellabs@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+david.spreadbury=tellabs.com at lists.frameusers.co
m] On Behalf Of Wim Hooghwinkel (Scriptware)
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:18 AM
To: Framers (Frame)
Subject: FW: Print book - separate print jobs

When printing a book to separate pdf files (one pdf for each file in
book) FM adds the book name before the file name: xxbook(file1  etc.

Can this behaviour be changed somewhere, so that the print file (pdf)
has only the file name without the book name?

Met vriendelijke groet/Kind regards,
Wim Hooghwinkel 
Wim Hooghwinkel
DTP and XML Manager T: +31 (0)23 548 48 84
F: +31 (0)23 548 48 85  wimh at scriptware.nl

The information contained in this message may be privileged
and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee
or agent responsible for delivering this message to the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any reproduction,
dissemination or distribution of this communication is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
please notify us immediately by replying to the message and
deleting it from your computer. Thank you. Tellabs

Mif2Go HTML setting

[John Posada]

Hi, guys...I'm using Mif2Go (Version 3.3, Update 46) to convert to
HTML for the first time...I've been using it to convert to Word for
years. I've defined it to split at two headings, but it names them
with system names.

I'd like to have it name each htm file with something understandable,
like the heading text as the file name.

I tried finding it in the help, but couldn't. Anyone give me a
pointer?

BTW...so far, the results are superb. I love the new batch file for
installation, and it can only get better from here.

John Posada
Senior Technical Writer

"So long and thanks for all the fish."

Visio flowchart into Frame

[Combs, Richard]

Ron Teplitz wrote: 

> I'm told you can make a link in Visio so when you click on 
> something, another f ile opens, like with a Hypertext marker 
> in Frame. I want to preserve links from  the Visio doc to 
> external files when the Visio doc gets imported into Frame. I 
>  guess that has to be Windows Frame since Frame 7 Solaris 
> won't import Visio fi les. 

I wanted to do this, but couldn't figure out a way. I have about 50
interconnected call flow diagrams in 6 multi-page Visio files that all
end up in an FM file. I could create PDFs from Visio that preserved the
hyperlinks. But when I imported those PDFs into FM, the links were lost.
I briefly tested both linking and embedding a Visio OLE object in FM,
but that didn't preserve the links either. 

The PDF route _ought_ to work -- the info is all right there in the PDF
file, it just needs to be preserved. FM is doing something it shouldn't
with the imported PDF. Shame, FM, shame! Bad app! ;-) 

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

Mif2Go HTML setting

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:58:24 -0700 (PDT), John Posada 
 wrote:

>Hi, guys...I'm using Mif2Go (Version 3.3, Update 46) to convert to
>HTML for the first time...I've been using it to convert to Word for
>years. I've defined it to split at two headings, but it names them
>with system names.
>
>I'd like to have it name each htm file with something understandable,
>like the heading text as the file name.

You can do that.  You can also use a marker of type FileName.
The hazard is that you can easily set two files to have the
same name, resulting in the second one produced overwriting
the first.  This is hard to diagnose when it happens... and
if you are giving names that are not guaranteed unique like
the ones we generate, that is "when" and not "if".  ;-)

>I tried finding it in the help, but couldn't. Anyone give me a
>pointer?

The User's Guide has close to 7000 index entries, among
them "FileName", which refers you to par. 27.7.3, "Using 
custom markers to name split and extract files".  For the
method using para format properties, see par. 27.7.4.1, 
"Constructing file names based on paragraph content".
That method is marked as "deprecated" purely as a warning;
it's way easier to create name conflicts automatically
with it.  Actually, we always maintain back compatibility,
so you can use it safely (aside from the conflict problem).

>BTW...so far, the results are superb. I love the new batch file for
>installation, and it can only get better from here.

Thank you!  Yes, we have quite a few plans for making it
better.  We recently added Eclipse Help, for example, and
some more surprises are coming soon.  ;-)

BTW, you may wonder why we use a simple .bat for install
rather than an install program.  It's for transparency.
Many of our biggest customers are in defense, where you
just don't want to run a program that may try to call
home, make secret registry settings, or put files where
your policies don't permit them.  With our .bat, the IT
folks can see exactly what will happen, and adjust the
instructions as needed to comply with their policies.

HTH!

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
http://www.omsys.com/

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[tammy.vanboen...@jeppesen.com]

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information 
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used 
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If , 
then . We have a new editor that just joined who is in the 
process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an 
opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . . .in many 
cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial meetings 
about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with some 
factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the 
emotional "because we've always done it this way." Years ago, I had such a 
reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember which 
manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such 
statements - if , AND then . Both I and the other 
writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then - 
no "and." I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation 
reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me 
First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't find 
it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin thread 
here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then, would 
make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was 
developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
tammy.vanboening at jeppesen.com

referenced graphics

[obai...@comcast.net]

Does anyone know if there is a way to make mif2go produce an rtf file that has 
linked graphics, rather than embedded graphics?  This would be from a frame 
file with referenced graphics.

I did not see anything about this in the mif2go help file.

Thanks.

Paul

Mif2Go HTML setting

[John Posada]

OK...I'm getting therethis is good so far. One last question:

I'd like to have the downstream topics within a hierarchy
automatically appear at the end of a topic. At the bottom of the
style Title would be all the H1s until the next occurannce of the
style Title. At the bottom of the style H1 would be all the H2s until
the next occurance of an H1, and at the bottom of H2 would be all the
H3s that occur until the next occurance of the next H2.

Am I asking for too much?

--- "Jeremy H. Griffith"  wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:58:24 -0700 (PDT), John Posada 
>  wrote:
> 
> >Hi, guys...I'm using Mif2Go (Version 3.3, Update 46) to convert to
> >HTML for the first time...I've been using it to convert to Word
> for
> >years. I've defined it to split at two headings, but it names them
> >with system names.
> >
> >I'd like to have it name each htm file with something
> understandable,
> >like the heading text as the file name.
> 
> You can do that.  You can also use a marker of type FileName.
> The hazard is that you can easily set two files to have the
> same name, resulting in the second one produced overwriting
> the first.  This is hard to diagnose when it happens... and
> if you are giving names that are not guaranteed unique like
> the ones we generate, that is "when" and not "if".  ;-)
> 
> >I tried finding it in the help, but couldn't. Anyone give me a
> >pointer?
> 
> The User's Guide has close to 7000 index entries, among
> them "FileName", which refers you to par. 27.7.3, "Using 
> custom markers to name split and extract files".  For the
> method using para format properties, see par. 27.7.4.1, 
> "Constructing file names based on paragraph content".
> That method is marked as "deprecated" purely as a warning;
> it's way easier to create name conflicts automatically
> with it.  Actually, we always maintain back compatibility,
> so you can use it safely (aside from the conflict problem).
> 
> >BTW...so far, the results are superb. I love the new batch file
> for
> >installation, and it can only get better from here.
> 
> Thank you!  Yes, we have quite a few plans for making it
> better.  We recently added Eclipse Help, for example, and
> some more surprises are coming soon.  ;-)
> 
> BTW, you may wonder why we use a simple .bat for install
> rather than an install program.  It's for transparency.
> Many of our biggest customers are in defense, where you
> just don't want to run a program that may try to call
> home, make secret registry settings, or put files where
> your policies don't permit them.  With our .bat, the IT
> folks can see exactly what will happen, and adjust the
> instructions as needed to comply with their policies.
> 
> HTH!
> 
> -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
> http://www.omsys.com/
> 


John Posada
Senior Technical Writer

"So long and thanks for all the fish."

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:22:20 -0600, Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com 
wrote:

>Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such statements - 
>if , AND then . Both I and the other 
>writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just 
>if/then - no "and."

Yikes.  You don't have to look for specific refs for
geekspeak, this is just plain bad grammar.  Look at
a grammar reference.  You don't use "and" to separate
a conditional clause from the rest of its sentence!

I'd seriously wonder if this person were qualified
to edit *anything*.  ;-)

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
http://www.omsys.com/

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

I think you need to screen for editors better. I'm not a grammarian by
any stretch of the imagination, but I certainly know you don't use a
coordinating conjunction to string together dependent clauses in that
manner.

If you want icecream, and then you buy some.

Makes absolutely no sense. Time to break out the wet noodle and start swinging.

On 6/29/06, Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com  
wrote:
> I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
> for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
> the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If ,
> then . We have a new editor that just joined who is in the
> process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an
> opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . . .in many
> cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial meetings
> about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with some
> factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the
> emotional "because we've always done it this way." Years ago, I had such a
> reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember which
> manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such
> statements - if , AND then . Both I and the other
> writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then -
> no "and." I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation
> reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me
> First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't find
> it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin thread
> here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then, would
> make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was
> developed, but. . . .

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

Syntax for if/then statement

[Anne Robotti]

> Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to 
> such statements - if , AND then . 

But that doesn't even make sense grammatically!

The closest thing I can find is in the Microsoft Manual of Style for
Technical Publications, it's the if/when/whether thing. I know that
doesn't help.

Surely the fact that the mind instinctively shrinks in horror from the
sentence structure he's proposing should count for something though,
shouldn't it?

Anne



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OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Steve Rickaby]

At 11:22 -0600 29/6/06, Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com wrote:

>Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if blah>, AND then . Both I and the other writer disagree with the 
>editor on this one - it should be just if/then - no "and."

Boy are you going to have fun with your new editor.

If/then and If/then/else or If/then/eiseif/else have been the constructs in any 
programming language that I can remember working in. 'If/and then' introduces 
an element of confusion, as if the 'and' clause is a second 'if' condition, as 
in 'If A happens and then B, then C happens'. In hardware logic, this is the 
logic of an AND gate, which has the truth table:

A   B   Out

0   0   0
0   1   0
1   0   0
1   1   1

In other words, the output is only high if inputs A and B are high. What you 
want is the logic of a Yes gate (I just made that up), i.e. a straight piece of 
wire:

Input   Output

0   0
1   1

I.e. If input high, then output high.

Even more, 'if/and then' introduces a misleading temporal element, as if the 
result only occurs if the second condition occurred after the first.

What's his/her background? Cleanly not electronics or programming. Or editing, 
for that matter.

For references, just use the formal definitions of any high-level programming 
language, plus a good grammar book. If that's not enough, search in the works 
of any of the major professional communicators (Tufte?)
-- 
Steve

Syntax for if/then statement

[Jim Light]

Tammy,

It seems to me that "and" changes the meaning entirely!

When you say "If A, then B." It means that if A occurs or exists, B will
follow or exist.

If you say "If A, and then B." The sentence is rendered incomplete. It
makes B part of the original IF clause (I wouldn't use a comma when
"anding" two items) and leaves you hanging, waiting for the other shoe
to drop. "If A and then B, then C will soon follow.

For example: "If the new editor prevails, and then the boss buys into
it, then you have no choice but to type up your resume." 

Jim 

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+jlight=pillardata@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+jlight=pillardata.com at lists.frameusers.com] On
Behalf Of Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM
To: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information

for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used

the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If , 
then . We have a new editor that just joined who is in the 
process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an

opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . . .in
many 
cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial
meetings 
about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with
some 
factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the 
emotional "because we've always done it this way." Years ago, I had such
a 
reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember
which 
manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such 
statements - if , AND then . Both I and the
other 
writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then
- 
no "and." I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation 
reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me 
First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't
find 
it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin
thread 
here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then,
would 
make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was 
developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
tammy.vanboening at jeppesen.com
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referenced graphics

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:28:10 +, obair81 at comcast.net 
wrote:

>Does anyone know if there is a way to make mif2go 
>produce an rtf file that has linked graphics, rather 
>than embedded graphics?  This would be from a frame 
>file with referenced graphics.

It's possible, but not advisable.  The trouble is that
Word does not permit scaling of such graphics in RTF;
for the graphic to appear at the correct size, it must 
be in an embedded WMF in the RTF.

That said, if you simply make sure that Mif2Go cannot
find (or generate) the referenced graphic in WMF or BMP 
form, it will be unable to embed, and you will get a 
reference instead.  This is *not* recommended, but it 
does work.

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
http://www.omsys.com/

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[tammy.vanboen...@jeppesen.com]

Donald, Christine, Jeremy, et. al.

LOL!  This list makes my day. Believe you me, I would like to be blunt as 
some of you were in your emails (the responses were hysterical!), but I 
can summarize the responses (in a politically correct format, mind you!) 
and go from there.

Thanks for all of the replies, support and knowledge. We'll see how it 
ends up.

TVB

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
tammy.vanboening at jeppesen.com

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Martha J Davidson]

At 10:22 AM 6/29/2006, Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com wrote:
>Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such
>statements - if , AND then . Both I and the other
>writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then -
>no "and."

Tammy,

I think your editor is overreacting to the use of "then" following
a comma in an entirely different context. As other folks have said,
using if A, then B, is just good English; anything else won't parse.

In some procedural steps, there's a trend to say "Do A, then do B,"
which many editors prefer to change to "Do A, AND then to B." Your
editor seems to have mixed up these two very different uses of "then"
following an initial clause. Can you check with him/her to see if
this is a possible misinterpretation of the new--incorrect--recommendation?

martha

--
Martha Jane {Kolman | Davidson}
Dances With Words
editrix at nemasys.com

"Too many words bring about exhaustion."
  --Tao Te Ching, Chapter 5 (translated by Sheets/Tovey)

Syntax for if/then statement

[Beck, Charles]

Hi Tammy, 

Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on
your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of
Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further:
That style guide states that you should avoid the "if...then"
construction altogether and not use the word "then" at all in such
situations. That is, you should simply say something like "If
such-and-such is true, do this." 

This has also been the policy/practice with my past and present
employers and clients. I formerly also used "if...then" constructions
almost exclusively, so it was a challenge for me to adhere to this
standard when I first encountered it. But after thinking it through, I
eventually agreed that it is cleaner and more succinct. 

However, YMMV. In the end, it may come down to what your
company/organization decides to use as the standard. If that is the
case, it will come down to a question of who has the final authority to
make such decisions on behalf of the organization. Hopefully, that will
not be done willy-nilly, with no regard for the preferences of all
parties involved; but in the end, if you all just cannot agree,
*some*one has to be the final arbiter. If that is not you, you may have
to just be prepared to bite the bullet and go along with it.

Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough about
such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and
endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could
probably not care less.

FWIW,
Chuck Beck


-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+charles.beck=infor@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+charles.beck=infor.com at lists.frameusers.com] On
Behalf Of Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:22 PM
To: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If , then . We have a new editor that just joined who is
in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone
has an opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . .
.in many cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our
editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to
be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or
standard - not just the emotional "because we've always done it this
way." Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements
this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor
wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if , AND
then . Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor
on this one - it should be just if/then - no "and." I have tried for the
life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this
syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I
know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me
to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are
writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's
where the  if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
tammy.vanboening at jeppesen.com
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OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

But if you're asked for supporting facts, you'll print out all these
e-mails and hand them to your "editor", right? ;-)

On 6/29/06, Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com  
wrote:
> LOL!  This list makes my day. Believe you me, I would like to be blunt as
> some of you were in your emails (the responses were hysterical!), but I
> can summarize the responses (in a politically correct format, mind you!)
> and go from there.

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Beck, Charles]

One additional thought: Despite what I said in my previous post, I agree
with Jeremy. Your editor's construction is also not correct. You should
not be using either "and" OR "then" with conditional construct
statements. In this case, your editor's position (on reading closer) is
worse than the one you have been using. But it may turn out that neither
is really grammatically correct. 

BTW, I can't say what the Chicago Manual of Style says about such
things, because I do not have one handy, but it might be interesting to
see what that style guide says about this...

Cheers,
Chuck Beck



-Original Message-
Subject: Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:22:20 -0600, Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com
wrote:

>Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if 
>, AND then . Both I and the other writer 
>disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then - no 
>"and."

Yikes.  You don't have to look for specific refs for geekspeak, this is
just plain bad grammar.  Look at a grammar reference.  You don't use
"and" to separate a conditional clause from the rest of its sentence!

I'd seriously wonder if this person were qualified to edit *anything*.
;-)

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
http://www.omsys.com/ 

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[eric.d...@ca.transport.bombardier.com]

Steve Rickaby wrote on 06/29/2006 01:47:56 PM:
> If/then and If/then/else or If/then/eiseif/else have been the 
> constructs in any programming language that I can remember working 
> in.

While I won't argue with the underlying point Steve's logic with respect 
to the addition of an AND clause to the sentence, I will pit nits and 
throw another view point into the mix.

Firstly, logically speaking, isn't there a difference between:
- If A, and then B
and
- If A and B

The first implies a wait or sequence between events A and B. It does not 
imply that the events are simultaneous nor that they need to be 
maintained. If A happens, stops, then six months later B happens, the 
first statement is true. The second statement is true only while both 
events are happening (and they could start in any order).

Secondly, Why does the sentence even contain "then" in the first place? 
(You don't even include THEN in If statements in many languages.)

Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

> For example: "If the new editor prevails, and then the boss buys into
> it, then you have no choice but to type up your resume."

Brilliant example! But let's end on a happy note...

Else hire a new editor. ;-)

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

Syntax for if/then statement

[Robert Shelton]

> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces+rshelton=opentext.com at lists.frameusers.com
> [mailto:framers-bounces+rshelton=opentext.com at lists.frameusers.com]On
> Behalf Of Beck, Charles
> 
> Hi Tammy, 
> 
> Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on
> your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of
> Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further:
> That style guide states that you should avoid the "if...then"
> construction altogether and not use the word "then" at all in such
> situations. That is, you should simply say something like "If
> such-and-such is true, do this." 

MMoS may not like "if..., then," but that doesn't mean it agrees with the 
editor. There's a big difference between saying the "then" is unnecessary and 
saying you need to add an "and."

> This has also been the policy/practice with my past and present
> employers and clients. I formerly also used "if...then" constructions
> almost exclusively, so it was a challenge for me to adhere to this
> standard when I first encountered it. But after thinking it through, I
> eventually agreed that it is cleaner and more succinct. 

For what it's worth, I rarely use "then" in this situation, but using "then" is 
much better than using "and then." As others have said, in this construction, 
that's just grammatically wrong.

Bob
"Love people. Use things. Not vice-versa." -- Kelly Rothaus

Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

> Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on
> your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of
> Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further:
> That style guide states that you should avoid the "if...then"
> construction altogether and not use the word "then" at all in such
> situations. That is, you should simply say something like "If
> such-and-such is true, do this."

Right, but the recommended construct is "if A, do B" not "if A, and do B"...

> Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough about
> such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and
> endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could
> probably not care less.

Actually, in the case of a "if/and then" construction, I'll bet the
readers would care and be just a tad bit confused.

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

You need to replace your new editor! Eek.

Here are some references that *might* be helpful, although none of them
*directly* answer your question.

http://users.ipfw.edu/blythes/teach/toolkit/dc.htm
http://grammar.uoregon.edu/clauses/dependent.html
http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw/grinker/LwtaDependant_Clauses_and_Phrases.htm

Z


Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com wrote:
> All,
> 
> I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information 
> for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used 
> the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If , 
> then . We have a new editor that just joined who is in the 
> process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an 
> opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . . .in many 
> cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial meetings 
> about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with some 
> factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the 
> emotional "because we've always done it this way." Years ago, I had such a 
> reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember which 
> manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such 
> statements - if , AND then . Both I and the other 
> writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then - 
> no "and." I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation 
> reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me 
> First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't find 
> it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin thread 
> here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then, would 
> make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was 
> developed, but. . . . 
> 
> Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.
>

Syntax for if/then statement

[Beck, Charles]

Right-o, Bill. I had neglected to notice the full context of the
construct, and issued my first response too hastily. My bad. 

However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, "If
such-and-such is true, then do this," or "If such-and-such is true, do
this."

Chuck


-Original Message-
From: Bill Swallow [mailto:techcommd...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 2:09 PM
To: Beck, Charles
Cc: Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com; framers at frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Syntax for if/then statement

> Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on 
> your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of 
> Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even
further:
> That style guide states that you should avoid the "if...then"
> construction altogether and not use the word "then" at all in such 
> situations. That is, you should simply say something like "If 
> such-and-such is true, do this."

Right, but the recommended construct is "if A, do B" not "if A, and do
B"...

> Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough 
> about such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and 
> endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could 
> probably not care less.

Actually, in the case of a "if/and then" construction, I'll bet the
readers would care and be just a tad bit confused.

--
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

> However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
> and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, "If
> such-and-such is true, then do this," or "If such-and-such is true, do
> this."

Right, "then" is assumed, just as "you" is assumed in your examples. :-)

I'll bet many non-English languages will put "then" back in when it's
translated.

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[T.W. Smith]

I think there's two things going on here. But, the editor should be open to
discussion because she's a member of the team.

Anyway:

1) If X then Y is fine. The conditional clause can be introduced that way.

However, where I think the editor is going is the need for coordinating
conjunctions to avoid comma splices.

2) Click File, click New. That comma splice becomes, "Click File, then click
New." which is technically incorrect and ought be "Click File, and then
click New."

However, "Click File, then click New." works for me (though I use Click File
> New." or a semi-colon, depending on context.)

==
T.


I won. I voted for Char James-Tanny for STC secretary.

Syntax for if/then statement

[Patterson, Jan]

The Chicago Manual of Style, 15th Edition, section 5.182, says:

"Correlative conjunctions are used in pairs, often to join successive
clauses that depend on each other to form a complete thought . . . {If
the first claim is true, then the second claim must be false} . . . Some
examples of correlative conjunctions are as-as, if-then, either-or,
neither-nor . . ."

jan e patterson
environmental systems products - sr technical writer
tucson, az 85745

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+jan.patterson=esph@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+jan.patterson=esph.com at lists.frameusers.com] On
Behalf Of Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM
To: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If , then . We have a new editor that just joined who is
in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone
has an opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . .
.in many cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our
editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to
be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or
standard - not just the emotional "because we've always done it this
way." Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements
this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor
wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if , AND
then . Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor
on this one - it should be just if/then - no "and." I have tried for the
life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this
syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I
know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me
to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are
writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's
where the  if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
tammy.vanboening at jeppesen.com
___


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Syntax for if/then statement

[Stuart Rogers]

Beck, Charles wrote:

> However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
> and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, "If
> such-and-such is true, then do this," or "If such-and-such is true, do
> this."

As always, consider your audience. Perhaps you write only for native 
speakers of American English. I write for an international audience; 
probably 80% of my readers have English as a second language. I always 
write "If..., then..." because it is the clearest way to signal the 
relationship of the clauses. It may be redundant in casual speech, but 
as signal theory tells us, redundancy helps ensure the right message is 
received.

And to Tammy -- good luck with that "editor".


-- 
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in 
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification 
for selfishness."

John Kenneth Galbraith, 1908-2006
"The smartest export Canada ever sent to the United States."


Get Firefox!
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OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Briggs]

At 2:04 PM -0400 6/29/06, eric.dunn at ca.transport.bombardier.com wrote:
>Firstly, logically speaking, isn't there a difference between:
>- If A, and then B
>and
>- If A and B

 From the point of view of someone who is used to such structures in 
programming languages the first variant would never be used; the "and" would 
simply not be there.

 Once you remove the "and" the meaning is clear. If "condition specified by A 
is true" then "condition specified by B is also true. And example might be 
(with apologies to the exceptional duckbill platapus)  If it nurses its young, 
then it is a mammal. Note that if you stick the "and" in there it changes 
everything, and as someone noted earlier, it makes the sentence incomplete.

 As for the second variant, it means quite simply "If the condition specified 
by A is true and the condition specified by B is also true, ..." but it also 
needs to be completed with some kind of outcome, generally specified by a 
"...then..." construct.


>The first implies a wait or sequence between events A and B. It does not
>imply that the events are simultaneous nor that they need to be
>maintained. If A happens, stops, then six months later B happens, the
>first statement is true.

 No. If you interpret it that way you need to have some consequence to complete 
the idea.


> The second statement is true only while both
>events are happening (and they could start in any order).

 Not necessarily "events happening"; more often than not it's "existing 
conditions".


>Secondly, Why does the sentence even contain "then" in the first place?
>(You don't even include THEN in If statements in many languages.)

 Because that's how the logic is described in words when B is a subset of A, or 
a condition that is always true if A is true.

 Folks seem to be tackling this from a grammatical perspective and consulting 
style manuals. These constructs come directly from the language of mathematics. 
The addition of the word "and" (which is a logical operator in its own right) 
just serves to confuse what is perfectly clear without it by making a complete 
thought incomplete (both logically and gramatically).

 - web

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Grant Hogarth]

To build still further on Eric's excellent discourse:

There also exists the possibility of a conditional dependency of action.
   E.g. "If your book wins a Pulitzer, [then] you 
 [will/can/must/shall/may/ought to/...] celebrate..."


- If A, then B (explicit consequence, implied (but not required)
order)
- If A and B   (explicit connection, both elements required)
- If A, and then B (explicit consequence, conditions must occur in fixed
order)
- If A, B  (explict set construction with tacit connection, but
no required sequence)

In the first three of these, the time separation element is implied as a
requirement; the first and third items its value is any greater than 0,
while the second implies simultenaity. The fourth item has no such time
requirement. In addition, the form "If A..." implicitly posits that 'A'
is an event of finite duration whose action has finished.  (Contrast:
"While A, B".)

Pedantically yours, 
Grant :-)

Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Briggs]

At 2:13 PM -0400 6/29/06, Beck, Charles wrote:
>However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
>and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, "If
>such-and-such is true, then do this," or "If such-and-such is true, do
>this."

 I agree. In the second instance the "then" is implicit.

 - web

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Briggs]

At 2:22 PM -0400 6/29/06, T.W. Smith wrote:
>2) Click File, click New. That comma splice becomes, "Click File, then click 
>New." which is technically incorrect and ought be "Click File, and then click 
>New."

 But this isn't even the same construct. This is an imperative; a set of 
instructions: do something and then do something else. You can't put an "if" in 
front of this and have it make sense. So it's not the same construct as "If 
condition A is true, then condition B is true" (or alternately, "If condition A 
is true, then do B"). Totally different things.

 - web

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Briggs]

At 12:33 PM -0600 6/29/06, Grant Hogarth, self-professed pedant, wrote:
>To build still further on Eric's excellent discourse:
>
>There also exists the possibility of a conditional dependency of action.
>   E.g. "If your book wins a Pulitzer, [then] you
> [will/can/must/shall/may/ought to/...] celebrate..."
>
>
>- If A, then B (explicit consequence, implied (but not required)
>order)
>- If A and B   (explicit connection, both elements required)
>- If A, and then B (explicit consequence, conditions must occur in fixed
>order)
>- If A, B  (explict set construction with tacit connection, but
>no required sequence)
>
>In the first three of these, the time separation element is implied as a
>requirement;

 Sorry, but that's not so. My example in a previous message has no time element 
and satisfies the first just fine thank you. It's not necessary that these 
things are sequences of instructions, they can be existing conditions, which is 
how the constructs arise in logic and in programming any kind of logic based 
system.

 Further, the first instance is a complete notion. The second and third are not 
and require a consequence to complete the statement. The last is totally 
unclear to me. Is it "if A and B" or "if A or B" or "if A given B" or something 
else? It is not possible to ascertain from what you've written.

- web

OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[eric.d...@ca.transport.bombardier.com]

Bill Briggs wrote on 06/29/2006 03:30:32 PM:
> At 2:04 PM -0400 6/29/06, eric.dunn at ca.transport.bombardier.com wrote:
> >Firstly, logically speaking, isn't there a difference between:
> >- If A, and then B
> >and
> >- If A and B

> From the point of view of someone who is used to such structures in 
> programming languages the first variant would never be used; the 
> "and" would simply not be there.

But it is how I would describe, in writing, the construct of nested Ifs:

  If A
{DO THIS}
If B
  {DO THIS}
EndIf
  EndIf
Where there may be any amount of code, waiting or looping before you get 
to the If B and indeed the end of the If A statement.

Or perhaps:

  If A
{Wait for B} -- specified or indeterminate wait time
  EndIf

Or perhaps:

  {Wait for A}
  If B
{DO THIS}
  EndIf 

In either of the above, A could become False at anytime after the test or 
after the wait as the test for B and the execution of the related code is 
not dependant on A.

The second one is simply

If (A) AND (B)
  {DO THIS}
EndIf

perhaps an interesting side step into logic, but pretty irrelevant to the 
thread.

Eric L. Dunn
Senior Technical Writer

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referenced graphics

[obai...@comcast.net]

Does that mean that, if I pick Do not Write Equations, and hide the BMPs that 
[GraphFiles] tif=bmp points to, that I will get empty frames where the images 
would be?

If after generation I then put the BMPs in the same folder as the word file, 
and re-open the word file, will they appear as linked images?

Paul

 -- Original message --
From: "Jeremy H. Griffith" 
> On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:28:10 +, obair81 at comcast.net 
> wrote:
> 
> >Does anyone know if there is a way to make mif2go 
> >produce an rtf file that has linked graphics, rather 
> >than embedded graphics?  This would be from a frame 
> >file with referenced graphics.
> 
> It's possible, but not advisable.  The trouble is that
> Word does not permit scaling of such graphics in RTF;
> for the graphic to appear at the correct size, it must 
> be in an embedded WMF in the RTF.
> 
> That said, if you simply make sure that Mif2Go cannot
> find (or generate) the referenced graphic in WMF or BMP 
> form, it will be unable to embed, and you will get a 
> reference instead.  This is *not* recommended, but it 
> does work.
> 
> -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
> http://www.omsys.com/
> ___
> 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as obair81 at comcast.net.
> 
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
> 
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
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> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/obair81%40comcast.net
> 
> Send administrative questions to lisa at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

Syntax for if/then statement

[Joe Malin]

Hmmm. Doesn't make much sense to me.

In a *sentence* "if , then ", the word "then" isn't required. It's
really an emphasis attached to . 

For example, you could say "If you are using Windows, follow these
instructions:" and omit the "then". The word that really joins the two
phrases is "if", which is a conjunction; "if" appears first because
you've reserved the phrase order. That is, by the way, the real reason
you need the comma.

To say "If you are using Windows, and then follow these instructions" is
grammatically incorrect. You have have *both* a *subordinate*
conjunction (if) and a *coordinate* conjunction (and) connecting the
same two phrases!


 Joe Malin
Technical Writer
(408)625-1623
jmalin at tuvox.com 
www.tuvox.com
The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and do not
necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces+jmalin=tuvox.com at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf
Of Tammy.VanBoening at jeppesen.com
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM
To: framers at frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If , then . We have a new editor that just joined who is
in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone
has an opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . .
.in many cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our
editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to
be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or
standard - not just the emotional "because we've always done it this
way." Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements
this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor
wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if , AND
then . Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor
on this one - it should be just if/then - no "and." I have tried for the
life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this
syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I
know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me
to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are
writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's
where the  if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
tammy.vanboening at jeppesen.com
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Visio flowchart into Frame

[Jan Homan]

 
Using pdfFLY (available on Unix,Linux and Windows) you convert any graphics 
drawing saved in PostScript/PDF file
to FrameMaker MIF native format.
See http://www.visual-integrity.com for more information.
 
Jan Homan
Visual Integrity
Square One bv
http://www.visual-integrity.com  
http://www.square1.nl  
 
 
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Re: Question about the hyperlink from the LOF to the figure

[Shlomo Perets]

Janice,

You wrote:

Thanks, Shlomo. I now understand it better now, and I think my department 
is fine with it opening to the top of the page at this time.   However, 
when I changed the Reference Page from:  gotopage 
<$relfilename>:<$pagenum> to gotoObjectId <$relfilename>:<$ObjectType> 
<$ObjectId>, it didn't seem to work.  Did I do something wrong?


The
gotoObjectId <$relfilename>:<$ObjectType> <$ObjectId>
syntax is correct.

openObjectId <$relfilename>:<$ObjectType> <$ObjectId>
will do the same when going from FM to PDF.

When editing the reference page, make sure to have View > Text Symbols 
turned on. Also, make sure you edit the "right" *ActiveLOF paragraph (in 
some templates, there is more than one instance, only one of which is 
active). If you cannot figure out what is wrong, please send me the LOF file.



Shlomo Perets

MicroType, http://www.microtype.com * ToolbarPlus Express for FrameMaker
FrameMaker/Acrobat training & consulting * FrameMaker-to-Acrobat 
TimeSavers/Assistants





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RE: Visio flowchart into Frame

[Ron Teplitz]

Ron wrote :

> Can I import a Visio flowchart into Frame 7 Solaris and retain the
> live links? If not, how can I do it? Do I need Window Frame?
  

What do you mean by 'live links'? 


Harro de Jong

I'm told you can make a link in Visio so when you click on something, another f
ile opens, like with a Hypertext marker in Frame. I want to preserve links from
 the Visio doc to external files when the Visio doc gets imported into Frame. I
 guess that has to be Windows Frame since Frame 7 Solaris won't import Visio fi
les. 

Ron
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Re: Visio flowchart into Frame

[Art Campbell]

Ron, I think it's going to depend a lot on what your final form
deliverable is --
FM, .PDF, HTML, something else... I haven't played with it, but I'd
guess that .PDF
may support it and I'd be surprised if HTML did because you'd have to
convert to another
format that would likely throw away the link info. Probably have to
redo it as an image map under whatever graphic you end up with.

Art

On 6/29/06, Ron Teplitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Ron wrote :

> Can I import a Visio flowchart into Frame 7 Solaris and retain the
> live links? If not, how can I do it? Do I need Window Frame?


What do you mean by 'live links'?


Harro de Jong

I'm told you can make a link in Visio so when you click on something, another f
ile opens, like with a Hypertext marker in Frame. I want to preserve links from
 the Visio doc to external files when the Visio doc gets imported into Frame. I
 guess that has to be Windows Frame since Frame 7 Solaris won't import Visio fi
les.

Ron
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--
Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
  and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
No disclaimers apply.
DoD 358
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Re: table anchors - best practices?

[Stuart Rogers]

Karen Mardahl wrote:


I am starting to pick up on this negative number trick. For my table
anchor, I had settled on a font at 7pt (I like seeing that tag!), and
the para catalog defaulted to line space 8 pt. No space above or
below. My tables are set to 0 pt above. The white space between a text
block and a table is then just from the table anchor (plus a bit from
the regular body tag, I think.) I had thought it looked a wee bit too
tiny, so I will experiment some more, based on the numbers discussed
here. I am doing pioneer work here, so the nice people who kindly
responded here have now provided me with some sales arguments for
adding a table anchor to our catalogs. Thank you very much!!


The main advantage of the "negative number trick" is that if a table 
happens to flow to the top of a page, there will be no white space above 
it. Without the trick, you'll get white space between your top margin 
and your table -- not a good thing.


s.

--
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in 
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification 
for selfishness."


John Kenneth Galbraith, 1908-2006
"The smartest export Canada ever sent to the United States."


Get Firefox!
http://tinyurl.com/8q9c5
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FW: Print book - separate print jobs

[Wim Hooghwinkel \(Scriptware\)]

When printing a book to separate pdf files (one pdf for each file in
book) FM adds the book name before the file name: xxbook(file1  etc.
 
Can this behaviour be changed somewhere, so that the print file (pdf)
has only the file name without the book name?
 
Met vriendelijke groet/Kind regards,
Wim Hooghwinkel 
Wim Hooghwinkel
DTP and XML Manager T: +31 (0)23 548 48 84
F: +31 (0)23 548 48 85  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: Print book - separate print jobs

[Spreadbury, David]

In the Print Book dialog under Save Book As:, select Separate File for
Each Document. This will give you separate .ps files for each chapter in
your book.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
m] On Behalf Of Wim Hooghwinkel (Scriptware)
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:18 AM
To: Framers (Frame)
Subject: FW: Print book - separate print jobs

When printing a book to separate pdf files (one pdf for each file in
book) FM adds the book name before the file name: xxbook(file1  etc.
 
Can this behaviour be changed somewhere, so that the print file (pdf)
has only the file name without the book name?
 
Met vriendelijke groet/Kind regards,
Wim Hooghwinkel 
Wim Hooghwinkel
DTP and XML Manager T: +31 (0)23 548 48 84
F: +31 (0)23 548 48 85  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The information contained in this message may be privileged
and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee
or agent responsible for delivering this message to the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any reproduction,
dissemination or distribution of this communication is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
please notify us immediately by replying to the message and
deleting it from your computer. Thank you. Tellabs

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Mif2Go HTML setting

[John Posada]

Hi, guys...I'm using Mif2Go (Version 3.3, Update 46) to convert to
HTML for the first time...I've been using it to convert to Word for
years. I've defined it to split at two headings, but it names them
with system names.

I'd like to have it name each htm file with something understandable,
like the heading text as the file name.

I tried finding it in the help, but couldn't. Anyone give me a
pointer?

BTW...so far, the results are superb. I love the new batch file for
installation, and it can only get better from here.

John Posada
Senior Technical Writer

"So long and thanks for all the fish."
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RE: Visio flowchart into Frame

[Combs, Richard]

Ron Teplitz wrote: 
 
> I'm told you can make a link in Visio so when you click on 
> something, another f ile opens, like with a Hypertext marker 
> in Frame. I want to preserve links from  the Visio doc to 
> external files when the Visio doc gets imported into Frame. I 
>  guess that has to be Windows Frame since Frame 7 Solaris 
> won't import Visio fi les. 

I wanted to do this, but couldn't figure out a way. I have about 50
interconnected call flow diagrams in 6 multi-page Visio files that all
end up in an FM file. I could create PDFs from Visio that preserved the
hyperlinks. But when I imported those PDFs into FM, the links were lost.
I briefly tested both linking and embedding a Visio OLE object in FM,
but that didn't preserve the links either. 

The PDF route _ought_ to work -- the info is all right there in the PDF
file, it just needs to be preserved. FM is doing something it shouldn't
with the imported PDF. Shame, FM, shame! Bad app! ;-) 

Richard


--
Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--




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Re: Mif2Go HTML setting

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:58:24 -0700 (PDT), John Posada 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Hi, guys...I'm using Mif2Go (Version 3.3, Update 46) to convert to
>HTML for the first time...I've been using it to convert to Word for
>years. I've defined it to split at two headings, but it names them
>with system names.
>
>I'd like to have it name each htm file with something understandable,
>like the heading text as the file name.

You can do that.  You can also use a marker of type FileName.
The hazard is that you can easily set two files to have the
same name, resulting in the second one produced overwriting
the first.  This is hard to diagnose when it happens... and
if you are giving names that are not guaranteed unique like
the ones we generate, that is "when" and not "if".  ;-)

>I tried finding it in the help, but couldn't. Anyone give me a
>pointer?

The User's Guide has close to 7000 index entries, among
them "FileName", which refers you to par. 27.7.3, "Using 
custom markers to name split and extract files".  For the
method using para format properties, see par. 27.7.4.1, 
"Constructing file names based on paragraph content".
That method is marked as "deprecated" purely as a warning;
it's way easier to create name conflicts automatically
with it.  Actually, we always maintain back compatibility,
so you can use it safely (aside from the conflict problem).

>BTW...so far, the results are superb. I love the new batch file for
>installation, and it can only get better from here.

Thank you!  Yes, we have quite a few plans for making it
better.  We recently added Eclipse Help, for example, and
some more surprises are coming soon.  ;-)

BTW, you may wonder why we use a simple .bat for install
rather than an install program.  It's for transparency.
Many of our biggest customers are in defense, where you
just don't want to run a program that may try to call
home, make secret registry settings, or put files where
your policies don't permit them.  With our .bat, the IT
folks can see exactly what will happen, and adjust the
instructions as needed to comply with their policies.

HTH!

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://www.omsys.com/
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OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Tammy . VanBoening]

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information 
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used 
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If , 
then . We have a new editor that just joined who is in the 
process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an 
opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . . .in many 
cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial meetings 
about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with some 
factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the 
emotional "because we've always done it this way." Years ago, I had such a 
reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember which 
manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such 
statements - if , AND then . Both I and the other 
writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then - 
no "and." I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation 
reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me 
First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't find 
it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin thread 
here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then, would 
make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was 
developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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referenced graphics

[obair81]

Does anyone know if there is a way to make mif2go produce an rtf file that has 
linked graphics, rather than embedded graphics?  This would be from a frame 
file with referenced graphics.

I did not see anything about this in the mif2go help file.

Thanks.

Paul
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Re: Mif2Go HTML setting

[John Posada]

OK...I'm getting therethis is good so far. One last question:

I'd like to have the downstream topics within a hierarchy
automatically appear at the end of a topic. At the bottom of the
style Title would be all the H1s until the next occurannce of the
style Title. At the bottom of the style H1 would be all the H2s until
the next occurance of an H1, and at the bottom of H2 would be all the
H3s that occur until the next occurance of the next H2.

Am I asking for too much?

--- "Jeremy H. Griffith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:58:24 -0700 (PDT), John Posada 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >Hi, guys...I'm using Mif2Go (Version 3.3, Update 46) to convert to
> >HTML for the first time...I've been using it to convert to Word
> for
> >years. I've defined it to split at two headings, but it names them
> >with system names.
> >
> >I'd like to have it name each htm file with something
> understandable,
> >like the heading text as the file name.
> 
> You can do that.  You can also use a marker of type FileName.
> The hazard is that you can easily set two files to have the
> same name, resulting in the second one produced overwriting
> the first.  This is hard to diagnose when it happens... and
> if you are giving names that are not guaranteed unique like
> the ones we generate, that is "when" and not "if".  ;-)
> 
> >I tried finding it in the help, but couldn't. Anyone give me a
> >pointer?
> 
> The User's Guide has close to 7000 index entries, among
> them "FileName", which refers you to par. 27.7.3, "Using 
> custom markers to name split and extract files".  For the
> method using para format properties, see par. 27.7.4.1, 
> "Constructing file names based on paragraph content".
> That method is marked as "deprecated" purely as a warning;
> it's way easier to create name conflicts automatically
> with it.  Actually, we always maintain back compatibility,
> so you can use it safely (aside from the conflict problem).
> 
> >BTW...so far, the results are superb. I love the new batch file
> for
> >installation, and it can only get better from here.
> 
> Thank you!  Yes, we have quite a few plans for making it
> better.  We recently added Eclipse Help, for example, and
> some more surprises are coming soon.  ;-)
> 
> BTW, you may wonder why we use a simple .bat for install
> rather than an install program.  It's for transparency.
> Many of our biggest customers are in defense, where you
> just don't want to run a program that may try to call
> home, make secret registry settings, or put files where
> your policies don't permit them.  With our .bat, the IT
> folks can see exactly what will happen, and adjust the
> instructions as needed to comply with their policies.
> 
> HTH!
> 
> -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
>   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://www.omsys.com/
> 


John Posada
Senior Technical Writer

"So long and thanks for all the fish."
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:22:20 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

>Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such statements - 
>if , AND then . Both I and the other 
>writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just 
>if/then - no "and."

Yikes.  You don't have to look for specific refs for
geekspeak, this is just plain bad grammar.  Look at
a grammar reference.  You don't use "and" to separate
a conditional clause from the rest of its sentence!

I'd seriously wonder if this person were qualified
to edit *anything*.  ;-)

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://www.omsys.com/
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

I think you need to screen for editors better. I'm not a grammarian by
any stretch of the imagination, but I certainly know you don't use a
coordinating conjunction to string together dependent clauses in that
manner.

If you want icecream, and then you buy some.

Makes absolutely no sense. Time to break out the wet noodle and start swinging.

On 6/29/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If ,
then . We have a new editor that just joined who is in the
process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an
opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . . .in many
cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial meetings
about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with some
factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the
emotional "because we've always done it this way." Years ago, I had such a
reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember which
manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such
statements - if , AND then . Both I and the other
writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then -
no "and." I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation
reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me
First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't find
it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin thread
here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then, would
make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was
developed, but. . . .


--
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Anne Robotti]

> Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to 
> such statements - if , AND then . 

But that doesn't even make sense grammatically!

The closest thing I can find is in the Microsoft Manual of Style for
Technical Publications, it's the if/when/whether thing. I know that
doesn't help.

Surely the fact that the mind instinctively shrinks in horror from the
sentence structure he's proposing should count for something though,
shouldn't it?

Anne
 


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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Steve Rickaby]

At 11:22 -0600 29/6/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if blah>, AND then . Both I and the other writer disagree with the 
>editor on this one - it should be just if/then - no "and."

Boy are you going to have fun with your new editor.

If/then and If/then/else or If/then/eiseif/else have been the constructs in any 
programming language that I can remember working in. 'If/and then' introduces 
an element of confusion, as if the 'and' clause is a second 'if' condition, as 
in 'If A happens and then B, then C happens'. In hardware logic, this is the 
logic of an AND gate, which has the truth table:

A   B   Out

0   0   0
0   1   0
1   0   0
1   1   1

In other words, the output is only high if inputs A and B are high. What you 
want is the logic of a Yes gate (I just made that up), i.e. a straight piece of 
wire:

Input   Output

0   0
1   1

I.e. If input high, then output high.

Even more, 'if/and then' introduces a misleading temporal element, as if the 
result only occurs if the second condition occurred after the first.

What's his/her background? Cleanly not electronics or programming. Or editing, 
for that matter.

For references, just use the formal definitions of any high-level programming 
language, plus a good grammar book. If that's not enough, search in the works 
of any of the major professional communicators (Tufte?)
-- 
Steve
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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Jim Light]

Tammy,

It seems to me that "and" changes the meaning entirely!

When you say "If A, then B." It means that if A occurs or exists, B will
follow or exist.

If you say "If A, and then B." The sentence is rendered incomplete. It
makes B part of the original IF clause (I wouldn't use a comma when
"anding" two items) and leaves you hanging, waiting for the other shoe
to drop. "If A and then B, then C will soon follow.

For example: "If the new editor prevails, and then the boss buys into
it, then you have no choice but to type up your resume." 

Jim 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM
To: framers@frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information

for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used

the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If , 
then . We have a new editor that just joined who is in the 
process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an

opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . . .in
many 
cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial
meetings 
about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with
some 
factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the 
emotional "because we've always done it this way." Years ago, I had such
a 
reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember
which 
manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such 
statements - if , AND then . Both I and the
other 
writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then
- 
no "and." I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation 
reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me 
First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't
find 
it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin
thread 
here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then,
would 
make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was 
developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: referenced graphics

[Jeremy H. Griffith]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:28:10 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

>Does anyone know if there is a way to make mif2go 
>produce an rtf file that has linked graphics, rather 
>than embedded graphics?  This would be from a frame 
>file with referenced graphics.

It's possible, but not advisable.  The trouble is that
Word does not permit scaling of such graphics in RTF;
for the graphic to appear at the correct size, it must 
be in an embedded WMF in the RTF.

That said, if you simply make sure that Mif2Go cannot
find (or generate) the referenced graphic in WMF or BMP 
form, it will be unable to embed, and you will get a 
reference instead.  This is *not* recommended, but it 
does work.

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://www.omsys.com/
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Tammy . VanBoening]

Donald, Christine, Jeremy, et. al.

LOL!  This list makes my day. Believe you me, I would like to be blunt as 
some of you were in your emails (the responses were hysterical!), but I 
can summarize the responses (in a politically correct format, mind you!) 
and go from there.

Thanks for all of the replies, support and knowledge. We'll see how it 
ends up.

TVB

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Martha J Davidson]

At 10:22 AM 6/29/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such
statements - if , AND then . Both I and the other
writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then -
no "and."


Tammy,

I think your editor is overreacting to the use of "then" following
a comma in an entirely different context. As other folks have said,
using if A, then B, is just good English; anything else won't parse.

In some procedural steps, there's a trend to say "Do A, then do B,"
which many editors prefer to change to "Do A, AND then to B." Your
editor seems to have mixed up these two very different uses of "then"
following an initial clause. Can you check with him/her to see if
this is a possible misinterpretation of the new--incorrect--recommendation?

martha

--
Martha Jane {Kolman | Davidson}
Dances With Words
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Too many words bring about exhaustion."
 --Tao Te Ching, Chapter 5 (translated by Sheets/Tovey)


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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Beck, Charles]

Hi Tammy, 

Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on
your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of
Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further:
That style guide states that you should avoid the "if...then"
construction altogether and not use the word "then" at all in such
situations. That is, you should simply say something like "If
such-and-such is true, do this." 

This has also been the policy/practice with my past and present
employers and clients. I formerly also used "if...then" constructions
almost exclusively, so it was a challenge for me to adhere to this
standard when I first encountered it. But after thinking it through, I
eventually agreed that it is cleaner and more succinct. 

However, YMMV. In the end, it may come down to what your
company/organization decides to use as the standard. If that is the
case, it will come down to a question of who has the final authority to
make such decisions on behalf of the organization. Hopefully, that will
not be done willy-nilly, with no regard for the preferences of all
parties involved; but in the end, if you all just cannot agree,
*some*one has to be the final arbiter. If that is not you, you may have
to just be prepared to bite the bullet and go along with it.

Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough about
such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and
endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could
probably not care less.

FWIW,
Chuck Beck


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 1:22 PM
To: framers@frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If , then . We have a new editor that just joined who is
in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone
has an opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . .
.in many cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our
editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to
be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or
standard - not just the emotional "because we've always done it this
way." Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements
this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor
wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if , AND
then . Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor
on this one - it should be just if/then - no "and." I have tried for the
life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this
syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I
know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me
to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are
writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's
where the  if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

But if you're asked for supporting facts, you'll print out all these
e-mails and hand them to your "editor", right? ;-)

On 6/29/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

LOL!  This list makes my day. Believe you me, I would like to be blunt as
some of you were in your emails (the responses were hysterical!), but I
can summarize the responses (in a politically correct format, mind you!)
and go from there.


--
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
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RE: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Beck, Charles]

One additional thought: Despite what I said in my previous post, I agree
with Jeremy. Your editor's construction is also not correct. You should
not be using either "and" OR "then" with conditional construct
statements. In this case, your editor's position (on reading closer) is
worse than the one you have been using. But it may turn out that neither
is really grammatically correct. 

BTW, I can't say what the Chicago Manual of Style says about such
things, because I do not have one handy, but it might be interesting to
see what that style guide says about this...

Cheers,
Chuck Beck

 

-Original Message-
Subject: Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:22:20 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

>Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if 
>, AND then . Both I and the other writer 
>disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then - no 
>"and."

Yikes.  You don't have to look for specific refs for geekspeak, this is
just plain bad grammar.  Look at a grammar reference.  You don't use
"and" to separate a conditional clause from the rest of its sentence!

I'd seriously wonder if this person were qualified to edit *anything*.
;-)

-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://www.omsys.com/ 
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[eric . dunn]

Steve Rickaby wrote on 06/29/2006 01:47:56 PM:
> If/then and If/then/else or If/then/eiseif/else have been the 
> constructs in any programming language that I can remember working 
> in.

While I won't argue with the underlying point Steve's logic with respect 
to the addition of an AND clause to the sentence, I will pit nits and 
throw another view point into the mix.

Firstly, logically speaking, isn't there a difference between:
- If A, and then B
and
- If A and B

The first implies a wait or sequence between events A and B. It does not 
imply that the events are simultaneous nor that they need to be 
maintained. If A happens, stops, then six months later B happens, the 
first statement is true. The second statement is true only while both 
events are happening (and they could start in any order).

Secondly, Why does the sentence even contain "then" in the first place? 
(You don't even include THEN in If statements in many languages.)

>From the original post: If , then .

Why not: If , .

Thirdly, as far as using "because we've always done it this way." as a 
reason, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The burden of proof 
is on the person suggesting a change. They must prove that their proposed 
change has demonstrable advantages over the old way. If they can prove 
benefit, only then is the old guard's complaint of "we've always done it 
this way." become irrelevant.

It doesn't make you popular, but a simple "Choosing between two 
unsubstantiated choices, we'll stick with the way it's done." or "I 
understand you like it better that way, but we've already made a choice." 
are valid arguments against change.

Eric L. Dunn
Senior Technical Writer

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Re: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

For example: "If the new editor prevails, and then the boss buys into
it, then you have no choice but to type up your resume."


Brilliant example! But let's end on a happy note...

Else hire a new editor. ;-)

--
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Robert Shelton]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Beck, Charles
> 
> Hi Tammy, 
> 
> Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on
> your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of
> Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further:
> That style guide states that you should avoid the "if...then"
> construction altogether and not use the word "then" at all in such
> situations. That is, you should simply say something like "If
> such-and-such is true, do this." 

MMoS may not like "if..., then," but that doesn't mean it agrees with the 
editor. There's a big difference between saying the "then" is unnecessary and 
saying you need to add an "and."
 
> This has also been the policy/practice with my past and present
> employers and clients. I formerly also used "if...then" constructions
> almost exclusively, so it was a challenge for me to adhere to this
> standard when I first encountered it. But after thinking it through, I
> eventually agreed that it is cleaner and more succinct. 

For what it's worth, I rarely use "then" in this situation, but using "then" is 
much better than using "and then." As others have said, in this construction, 
that's just grammatically wrong.

Bob
"Love people. Use things. Not vice-versa." -- Kelly Rothaus
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Re: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on
your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of
Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even further:
That style guide states that you should avoid the "if...then"
construction altogether and not use the word "then" at all in such
situations. That is, you should simply say something like "If
such-and-such is true, do this."


Right, but the recommended construct is "if A, do B" not "if A, and do B"...


Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough about
such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and
endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could
probably not care less.


Actually, in the case of a "if/and then" construction, I'll bet the
readers would care and be just a tad bit confused.

--
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

You need to replace your new editor! Eek.

Here are some references that *might* be helpful, although none of them
*directly* answer your question.

http://users.ipfw.edu/blythes/teach/toolkit/dc.htm
http://grammar.uoregon.edu/clauses/dependent.html
http://www.kentlaw.edu/academics/lrw/grinker/LwtaDependant_Clauses_and_Phrases.htm

Z


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information 
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used 
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If , 
then . We have a new editor that just joined who is in the 
process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone has an 
opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . . .in many 
cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our editorial meetings 
about defining our styles and standards, you need to be prepared with some 
factual support for a certain type of style or standard - not just the 
emotional "because we've always done it this way." Years ago, I had such a 
reference for writing if/then statements this way - I don't remember which 
manual I referenced. Our new editor wants to add the word "and" to such 
statements - if , AND then . Both I and the other 
writer disagree with the editor on this one - it should be just if/then - 
no "and." I have tried for the life of me to find a documentation 
reference that would support this syntax (something like Sun's Read Me 
First guide, etc), and although I know I had one in the past, I can't find 
it now. Googling only leads me to programming references - the thin thread 
here would be since we are writing software documentation, if/then, would 
make sense, since that's where the  if/then statement syntax was 
developed, but. . . . 


Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.


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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Beck, Charles]

Right-o, Bill. I had neglected to notice the full context of the
construct, and issued my first response too hastily. My bad. 

However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, "If
such-and-such is true, then do this," or "If such-and-such is true, do
this."

Chuck


-Original Message-
From: Bill Swallow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 2:09 PM
To: Beck, Charles
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; framers@frameusers.com
Subject: Re: Syntax for if/then statement

> Bad news: At least one major style guide and my own experience are on 
> your new editor's side on this one. In fact, the _Microsoft Manual of 
> Style for Technical Publications, Third Edition_ takes it even
further:
> That style guide states that you should avoid the "if...then"
> construction altogether and not use the word "then" at all in such 
> situations. That is, you should simply say something like "If 
> such-and-such is true, do this."

Right, but the recommended construct is "if A, do B" not "if A, and do
B"...

> Somewhat ironically, the only people who care passionately enough 
> about such matters to discuss, debate, and defend them vehemently and 
> endlessly are the documentation folks, typically. Our readers could 
> probably not care less.

Actually, in the case of a "if/and then" construction, I'll bet the
readers would care and be just a tad bit confused.

--
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
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Re: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Swallow]

However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, "If
such-and-such is true, then do this," or "If such-and-such is true, do
this."


Right, "then" is assumed, just as "you" is assumed in your examples. :-)

I'll bet many non-English languages will put "then" back in when it's
translated.

--
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[T.W. Smith]

I think there's two things going on here. But, the editor should be open to
discussion because she's a member of the team.

Anyway:

1) If X then Y is fine. The conditional clause can be introduced that way.

However, where I think the editor is going is the need for coordinating
conjunctions to avoid comma splices.

2) Click File, click New. That comma splice becomes, "Click File, then click
New." which is technically incorrect and ought be "Click File, and then
click New."

However, "Click File, then click New." works for me (though I use Click File

New." or a semi-colon, depending on context.)


==
T.


I won. I voted for Char James-Tanny for STC secretary.

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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Patterson, Jan]

The Chicago Manual of Style, 15th Edition, section 5.182, says:

"Correlative conjunctions are used in pairs, often to join successive
clauses that depend on each other to form a complete thought . . . {If
the first claim is true, then the second claim must be false} . . . Some
examples of correlative conjunctions are as-as, if-then, either-or,
neither-nor . . ."

jan e patterson
environmental systems products - sr technical writer
tucson, az 85745

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM
To: framers@frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If , then . We have a new editor that just joined who is
in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone
has an opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . .
.in many cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our
editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to
be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or
standard - not just the emotional "because we've always done it this
way." Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements
this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor
wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if , AND
then . Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor
on this one - it should be just if/then - no "and." I have tried for the
life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this
syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I
know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me
to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are
writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's
where the  if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Syntax for if/then statement

[Stuart Rogers]

Beck, Charles wrote:


However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, "If
such-and-such is true, then do this," or "If such-and-such is true, do
this."


As always, consider your audience. Perhaps you write only for native 
speakers of American English. I write for an international audience; 
probably 80% of my readers have English as a second language. I always 
write "If..., then..." because it is the clearest way to signal the 
relationship of the clauses. It may be redundant in casual speech, but 
as signal theory tells us, redundancy helps ensure the right message is 
received.


And to Tammy -- good luck with that "editor".


--
Stuart Rogers
Technical Communicator
Phoenix Geophysics Limited
Toronto, ON, Canada
+1 (416) 491-7340 x 325

srogers phoenix-geophysics com

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in 
moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification 
for selfishness."


John Kenneth Galbraith, 1908-2006
"The smartest export Canada ever sent to the United States."


Get Firefox!
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Briggs]

At 2:04 PM -0400 6/29/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Firstly, logically speaking, isn't there a difference between:
>- If A, and then B
>and
>- If A and B

 From the point of view of someone who is used to such structures in 
programming languages the first variant would never be used; the "and" would 
simply not be there.

 Once you remove the "and" the meaning is clear. If "condition specified by A 
is true" then "condition specified by B is also true. And example might be 
(with apologies to the exceptional duckbill platapus)  If it nurses its young, 
then it is a mammal. Note that if you stick the "and" in there it changes 
everything, and as someone noted earlier, it makes the sentence incomplete.

 As for the second variant, it means quite simply "If the condition specified 
by A is true and the condition specified by B is also true, ..." but it also 
needs to be completed with some kind of outcome, generally specified by a 
"...then..." construct.


>The first implies a wait or sequence between events A and B. It does not
>imply that the events are simultaneous nor that they need to be
>maintained. If A happens, stops, then six months later B happens, the
>first statement is true.

 No. If you interpret it that way you need to have some consequence to complete 
the idea.


> The second statement is true only while both
>events are happening (and they could start in any order).

 Not necessarily "events happening"; more often than not it's "existing 
conditions".


>Secondly, Why does the sentence even contain "then" in the first place?
>(You don't even include THEN in If statements in many languages.)

 Because that's how the logic is described in words when B is a subset of A, or 
a condition that is always true if A is true.

 Folks seem to be tackling this from a grammatical perspective and consulting 
style manuals. These constructs come directly from the language of mathematics. 
The addition of the word "and" (which is a logical operator in its own right) 
just serves to confuse what is perfectly clear without it by making a complete 
thought incomplete (both logically and gramatically).

 - web
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RE: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Grant Hogarth]

To build still further on Eric's excellent discourse:

There also exists the possibility of a conditional dependency of action.
   E.g. "If your book wins a Pulitzer, [then] you 
 [will/can/must/shall/may/ought to/...] celebrate..."


- If A, then B (explicit consequence, implied (but not required)
order)
- If A and B   (explicit connection, both elements required)
- If A, and then B (explicit consequence, conditions must occur in fixed
order)
- If A, B  (explict set construction with tacit connection, but
no required sequence)

In the first three of these, the time separation element is implied as a
requirement; the first and third items its value is any greater than 0,
while the second implies simultenaity. The fourth item has no such time
requirement. In addition, the form "If A..." implicitly posits that 'A'
is an event of finite duration whose action has finished.  (Contrast:
"While A, B".)

Pedantically yours, 
Grant :-)
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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Briggs]

At 2:13 PM -0400 6/29/06, Beck, Charles wrote:
>However, in the case of a conditional construct, I stand by my statement
>and conviction that most readers could not care less whether we say, "If
>such-and-such is true, then do this," or "If such-and-such is true, do
>this."

 I agree. In the second instance the "then" is implicit.

 - web
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Briggs]

At 2:22 PM -0400 6/29/06, T.W. Smith wrote:
>2) Click File, click New. That comma splice becomes, "Click File, then click 
>New." which is technically incorrect and ought be "Click File, and then click 
>New."

 But this isn't even the same construct. This is an imperative; a set of 
instructions: do something and then do something else. You can't put an "if" in 
front of this and have it make sense. So it's not the same construct as "If 
condition A is true, then condition B is true" (or alternately, "If condition A 
is true, then do B"). Totally different things.

 - web
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RE: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[Bill Briggs]

At 12:33 PM -0600 6/29/06, Grant Hogarth, self-professed pedant, wrote:
>To build still further on Eric's excellent discourse:
>
>There also exists the possibility of a conditional dependency of action.
>   E.g. "If your book wins a Pulitzer, [then] you
> [will/can/must/shall/may/ought to/...] celebrate..."
>
>
>- If A, then B (explicit consequence, implied (but not required)
>order)
>- If A and B   (explicit connection, both elements required)
>- If A, and then B (explicit consequence, conditions must occur in fixed
>order)
>- If A, B  (explict set construction with tacit connection, but
>no required sequence)
>
>In the first three of these, the time separation element is implied as a
>requirement;

 Sorry, but that's not so. My example in a previous message has no time element 
and satisfies the first just fine thank you. It's not necessary that these 
things are sequences of instructions, they can be existing conditions, which is 
how the constructs arise in logic and in programming any kind of logic based 
system.

 Further, the first instance is a complete notion. The second and third are not 
and require a consequence to complete the statement. The last is totally 
unclear to me. Is it "if A and B" or "if A or B" or "if A given B" or something 
else? It is not possible to ascertain from what you've written.

- web
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Re: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

[eric . dunn]

Bill Briggs wrote on 06/29/2006 03:30:32 PM:
> At 2:04 PM -0400 6/29/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >Firstly, logically speaking, isn't there a difference between:
> >- If A, and then B
> >and
> >- If A and B

> From the point of view of someone who is used to such structures in 
> programming languages the first variant would never be used; the 
> "and" would simply not be there.

But it is how I would describe, in writing, the construct of nested Ifs:

  If A
{DO THIS}
If B
  {DO THIS}
EndIf
  EndIf
Where there may be any amount of code, waiting or looping before you get 
to the If B and indeed the end of the If A statement.

Or perhaps:

  If A
{Wait for B} -- specified or indeterminate wait time
  EndIf

Or perhaps:

  {Wait for A}
  If B
{DO THIS}
  EndIf 

In either of the above, A could become False at anytime after the test or 
after the wait as the test for B and the execution of the related code is 
not dependant on A.

The second one is simply

If (A) AND (B)
  {DO THIS}
EndIf

perhaps an interesting side step into logic, but pretty irrelevant to the 
thread.

Eric L. Dunn
Senior Technical Writer

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Re: referenced graphics

[obair81]

Does that mean that, if I pick Do not Write Equations, and hide the BMPs that 
[GraphFiles] tif=bmp points to, that I will get empty frames where the images 
would be?

If after generation I then put the BMPs in the same folder as the word file, 
and re-open the word file, will they appear as linked images?

Paul

 -- Original message --
From: "Jeremy H. Griffith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:28:10 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:
> 
> >Does anyone know if there is a way to make mif2go 
> >produce an rtf file that has linked graphics, rather 
> >than embedded graphics?  This would be from a frame 
> >file with referenced graphics.
> 
> It's possible, but not advisable.  The trouble is that
> Word does not permit scaling of such graphics in RTF;
> for the graphic to appear at the correct size, it must 
> be in an embedded WMF in the RTF.
> 
> That said, if you simply make sure that Mif2Go cannot
> find (or generate) the referenced graphic in WMF or BMP 
> form, it will be unable to embed, and you will get a 
> reference instead.  This is *not* recommended, but it 
> does work.
> 
> -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
>   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://www.omsys.com/
> ___
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Re: referenced graphics

[obair81]

After some more testing, I see that I can make the word file using mif2go sans 
images, just placeholders, then in the new word doc do Edit>Links, then pick 
the graphics links, then click Update, and they show up as referenced images.

Whew!  Glad I don't have to use word often.

Thanks, jeremy.  

Paul

 -- Original message --
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Does that mean that, if I pick Do not Write Equations, and hide the BMPs that 
> [GraphFiles] tif=bmp points to, that I will get empty frames where the images 
> would be?
> 
> If after generation I then put the BMPs in the same folder as the word file, 
> and 
> re-open the word file, will they appear as linked images?
> 
> Paul
> 
>  -- Original message --
> From: "Jeremy H. Griffith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:28:10 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > >Does anyone know if there is a way to make mif2go 
> > >produce an rtf file that has linked graphics, rather 
> > >than embedded graphics?  This would be from a frame 
> > >file with referenced graphics.
> > 
> > It's possible, but not advisable.  The trouble is that
> > Word does not permit scaling of such graphics in RTF;
> > for the graphic to appear at the correct size, it must 
> > be in an embedded WMF in the RTF.
> > 
> > That said, if you simply make sure that Mif2Go cannot
> > find (or generate) the referenced graphic in WMF or BMP 
> > form, it will be unable to embed, and you will get a 
> > reference instead.  This is *not* recommended, but it 
> > does work.
> > 
> > -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
> >   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  http://www.omsys.com/
> > ___
> > 
> > 
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RE: Syntax for if/then statement

[Joe Malin]

Hmmm. Doesn't make much sense to me.

In a *sentence* "if , then ", the word "then" isn't required. It's
really an emphasis attached to . 

For example, you could say "If you are using Windows, follow these
instructions:" and omit the "then". The word that really joins the two
phrases is "if", which is a conjunction; "if" appears first because
you've reserved the phrase order. That is, by the way, the real reason
you need the comma.

To say "If you are using Windows, and then follow these instructions" is
grammatically incorrect. You have have *both* a *subordinate*
conjunction (if) and a *coordinate* conjunction (and) connecting the
same two phrases!


 Joe Malin
Technical Writer
(408)625-1623
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
www.tuvox.com
The views expressed in this document are those of the sender, and do not
necessarily reflect those of TuVox, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 10:22 AM
To: framers@frameusers.com
Subject: OT: Syntax for if/then statement

All,

I am hoping the fellow writers on this list can provide some information
for this request. Another writer here at Jeppesen and I have always used
the following syntax for a conditional/causal statement: If , then . We have a new editor that just joined who is
in the process of defining our styles and standards. Obviously, everyone
has an opinion about what is "right" and what is "wrong" in editing . .
.in many cases,  it's so subjective. That said, when we have our
editorial meetings about defining our styles and standards, you need to
be prepared with some factual support for a certain type of style or
standard - not just the emotional "because we've always done it this
way." Years ago, I had such a reference for writing if/then statements
this way - I don't remember which manual I referenced. Our new editor
wants to add the word "and" to such statements - if , AND
then . Both I and the other writer disagree with the editor
on this one - it should be just if/then - no "and." I have tried for the
life of me to find a documentation reference that would support this
syntax (something like Sun's Read Me First guide, etc), and although I
know I had one in the past, I can't find it now. Googling only leads me
to programming references - the thin thread here would be since we are
writing software documentation, if/then, would make sense, since that's
where the  if/then statement syntax was developed, but. . . . 

Any and all references/advice would be much appreciated.

TIA,

TVB 

Tammy Van Boening
Senior Technical Writer
Jeppesen Sanderson, Inc.
303-328-4420
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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