RE: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)

[Cathy Giddens]

For what it's worth, after years of trying to figure out the latest version of 
distiller options - always under deadline pressure! - for the last 6 years or 
so I've just uploaded a huge ps file to the printers ftp or more recently 
dropbox acct, and let them sort it out. I send them a pdf as well, to show how 
it's meant to turn out, and a paper dummy as well for ad placement etc.

I'm signing off the list at the end of this week, I'm leaving the job and the 
company is shutting down the book I've done for the last 19 years, the last 18 
of it in Framemaker, and I can't take the FM licence with me (tried but no was 
the answer). I might sign back in on my personal email after we get back from 
the Austrian ski trip in February.

Thank you all for all the help I've had from reading this list, I've learnt 
lots from you all, plus it's been great to be part of the FM community, which 
is a bit thin on the ground down here in New Zealand. Did find some Kiwi users 
through the list too. 

Regards
Cathy Giddens |  Editor
FNZIQS, Registered Quantity Surveyor 

Rawlinsons Limited
Publishers of Rawlinsons New Zealand Construction Handbook
Level 4, 135 Broadway, Newmarket, PO Box 9804, Newmarket, Auckland 1149
NEW ZEALAND

ddi:   +64 (0)9 600 6005  |  t:  + 64 (0)9 522 4780  |  m:  + 64 (0)21 354 265
e:  c.gidd...@rawlinsons.co.nz  |  w: www.rawlinsons.co.nz

This communication and/or attachment(s) is privileged and confidential and is 
intended for the sole use of the addressee(s). If you read this message and you 
are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, 
dissemination, distribution, disclosure or reproduction of this message, except 
as intended, is prohibited. If you receive this communication in error, please 
notify the sender immediately and remove all copies of the message, including 
any attachment(s).   Any views or opinions expressed in this communication 
(unless otherwise stated) may not represent those of Rawlinsons Limited.


--

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 02:40:46 -0600
From: Davis, David david.da...@invensys.com
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)
Message-ID:
67dfcb849710504594f24939d8ffe330a94c8b2...@invshouxchmbx03.corp.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Fair enough, Steve.
Although in all seriousness, I wonder is it worth trying some other 
print-houses?
The one you're using seems to think it's still 1983 :) 

-Original Message-
From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srick...@wordmongers.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: 13 December 2013 16:18
To: Davis, David; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)

At 02:55 -0600 13/12/13, Davis, David wrote:

Not wanting to be contrary here, but why does the PDF have to be only 
grayscale, just because it's going to be printed in black and white? Surely 
the printer driver should be perfectly capable of making intelligent decisions 
about converting the colours to grey.

Apparently not - I've tried it.

(And, indeed, it will make better decisions than you can earlier in the chain, 
cos it will know more about the output device).

Actually, for all the book's I've sent to press, I've known more or less 
nothing about the output device(S) - I just get a pre-press spec from the 
printers, which often takes the form of a Distiller jobspec file. However, I do 
know a range of things that must not be in the pre-press file, such as 
hairlines. And color ;-)

I mean, for instance, any domestic or office printer in existence will happily 
print in greyscale if you feed it a colour file (there's usually a checkbox 
somewhere in the print dialog). I'm sure most of us do and see this every day. 
 I appreciate some things look better than others when neutered like this 
(some hues of colour won't give very good contrast against each other in grey) 
... but the remedy for that is more in choosing the colours in the first 
place, not in some fancy 'conversion to greyscale' process. For instance I 
can't think that green text on an orange background is ever going to be very 
clear in greyscale, no matter what point in the chain you convert it.

Well I'm not going to argue with you, but I have a pre-press spec to work to, 
and it disallowed C, M and Y channel data.

-- 
Steve

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RE: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)

[Davis, David]

Fair enough, Steve.
Although in all seriousness, I wonder is it worth trying some other 
print-houses?
The one you're using seems to think it's still 1983 :) 

-Original Message-
From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srick...@wordmongers.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: 13 December 2013 16:18
To: Davis, David; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)

At 02:55 -0600 13/12/13, Davis, David wrote:

Not wanting to be contrary here, but why does the PDF have to be only 
grayscale, just because it's going to be printed in black and white? Surely 
the printer driver should be perfectly capable of making intelligent decisions 
about converting the colours to grey.

Apparently not - I've tried it.

(And, indeed, it will make better decisions than you can earlier in the chain, 
cos it will know more about the output device).

Actually, for all the book's I've sent to press, I've known more or less 
nothing about the output device(S) - I just get a pre-press spec from the 
printers, which often takes the form of a Distiller jobspec file. However, I do 
know a range of things that must not be in the pre-press file, such as 
hairlines. And color ;-)

I mean, for instance, any domestic or office printer in existence will happily 
print in greyscale if you feed it a colour file (there's usually a checkbox 
somewhere in the print dialog). I'm sure most of us do and see this every day. 
 I appreciate some things look better than others when neutered like this 
(some hues of colour won't give very good contrast against each other in grey) 
... but the remedy for that is more in choosing the colours in the first 
place, not in some fancy 'conversion to greyscale' process. For instance I 
can't think that green text on an orange background is ever going to be very 
clear in greyscale, no matter what point in the chain you convert it.

Well I'm not going to argue with you, but I have a pre-press spec to work to, 
and it disallowed C, M and Y channel data.

-- 
Steve


*** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached 
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If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please 
notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from 
your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its 
contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys 
Group, owned by Invensys plc, which is a company registered in England and 
Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 
7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within 
the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com.


You may contact Invensys plc on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail 
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CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)

[Cathy Giddens]

For what it's worth, after years of trying to figure out the latest version of 
distiller options - always under deadline pressure! - for the last 6 years or 
so I've just uploaded a huge ps file to the printers ftp or more recently 
dropbox acct, and let them sort it out. I send them a pdf as well, to show how 
it's meant to turn out, and a paper dummy as well for ad placement etc.

I'm signing off the list at the end of this week, I'm leaving the job and the 
company is shutting down the book I've done for the last 19 years, the last 18 
of it in Framemaker, and I can't take the FM licence with me (tried but no was 
the answer). I might sign back in on my personal email after we get back from 
the Austrian ski trip in February.

Thank you all for all the help I've had from reading this list, I've learnt 
lots from you all, plus it's been great to be part of the FM community, which 
is a bit thin on the ground down here in New Zealand. Did find some Kiwi users 
through the list too. 

Regards
Cathy Giddens |? Editor
FNZIQS, Registered Quantity Surveyor?

Rawlinsons Limited
Publishers of Rawlinsons New Zealand Construction Handbook
Level 4, 135 Broadway, Newmarket, PO Box 9804, Newmarket, Auckland 1149
NEW ZEALAND

ddi: ? +64 (0)9 600 6005? |? t:? + 64 (0)9 522 4780? |? m:? + 64 (0)21 354 265
e:? c.giddens at rawlinsons.co.nz? |? w: www.rawlinsons.co.nz

This communication and/or attachment(s) is privileged and confidential and is 
intended for the sole use of the addressee(s). If you read this message and you 
are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, 
dissemination, distribution, disclosure or reproduction of this message, except 
as intended, is prohibited. If you receive this communication in error, please 
notify the sender immediately and remove all copies of the message, including 
any attachment(s).?? Any views or opinions expressed in this communication 
(unless otherwise stated) may not represent those of Rawlinsons Limited.


--

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 02:40:46 -0600
From: "Davis, David" 
To: "framers at lists.frameusers.com" 
Subject: RE: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)
Message-ID:
<67DFCB849710504594F24939D8FFE330A94C8B2AE1 at INVSHOUXCHMBX03.corp.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Fair enough, Steve.
Although in all seriousness, I wonder is it worth trying some other 
print-houses?
The one you're using seems to think it's still 1983 :) 

-Original Message-
From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srick...@wordmongers.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: 13 December 2013 16:18
To: Davis, David; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)

At 02:55 -0600 13/12/13, Davis, David wrote:

>Not wanting to be contrary here, but why does the PDF have to be only 
>grayscale, just because it's going to be printed in black and white? Surely 
>the printer driver should be perfectly capable of making intelligent decisions 
>about converting the colours to grey.

Apparently not - I've tried it.

>(And, indeed, it will make better decisions than you can earlier in the chain, 
>cos it will know more about the output device).

Actually, for all the book's I've sent to press, I've known more or less 
nothing about the output device(S) - I just get a pre-press spec from the 
printers, which often takes the form of a Distiller jobspec file. However, I do 
know a range of things that must not be in the pre-press file, such as 
hairlines. And color ;-)

>I mean, for instance, any domestic or office printer in existence will happily 
>print in greyscale if you feed it a colour file (there's usually a checkbox 
>somewhere in the print dialog). I'm sure most of us do and see this every day. 
> I appreciate some things look better than others when neutered like this 
>(some hues of colour won't give very good contrast against each other in grey) 
>... but the remedy for that is more in choosing the colours in the first 
>place, not in some fancy 'conversion to greyscale' process. For instance I 
>can't think that green text on an orange background is ever going to be very 
>clear in greyscale, no matter what point in the chain you convert it.

Well I'm not going to argue with you, but I have a pre-press spec to work to, 
and it disallowed C, M and Y channel data.

-- 
Steve

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CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)

[Davis, David]

Fair enough, Steve.
Although in all seriousness, I wonder is it worth trying some other 
print-houses?
The one you're using seems to think it's still 1983 :) 

-Original Message-
From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srick...@wordmongers.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: 13 December 2013 16:18
To: Davis, David; framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)

At 02:55 -0600 13/12/13, Davis, David wrote:

>Not wanting to be contrary here, but why does the PDF have to be only 
>grayscale, just because it's going to be printed in black and white? Surely 
>the printer driver should be perfectly capable of making intelligent decisions 
>about converting the colours to grey.

Apparently not - I've tried it.

>(And, indeed, it will make better decisions than you can earlier in the chain, 
>cos it will know more about the output device).

Actually, for all the book's I've sent to press, I've known more or less 
nothing about the output device(S) - I just get a pre-press spec from the 
printers, which often takes the form of a Distiller jobspec file. However, I do 
know a range of things that must not be in the pre-press file, such as 
hairlines. And color ;-)

>I mean, for instance, any domestic or office printer in existence will happily 
>print in greyscale if you feed it a colour file (there's usually a checkbox 
>somewhere in the print dialog). I'm sure most of us do and see this every day. 
> I appreciate some things look better than others when neutered like this 
>(some hues of colour won't give very good contrast against each other in grey) 
>... but the remedy for that is more in choosing the colours in the first 
>place, not in some fancy 'conversion to greyscale' process. For instance I 
>can't think that green text on an orange background is ever going to be very 
>clear in greyscale, no matter what point in the chain you convert it.

Well I'm not going to argue with you, but I have a pre-press spec to work to, 
and it disallowed C, M and Y channel data.

-- 
Steve


*** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or attached 
files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is 
addressed. This e-mail is confidential and may well also be legally privileged. 
If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please 
notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from 
your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its 
contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys 
Group, owned by Invensys plc, which is a company registered in England and 
Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 
7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within 
the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com.


You may contact Invensys plc on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail reception at 
invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be subject to the 
terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and 
affiliates) and the recipient (and/or its subsidiaries and affiliates).

Re: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just curious]

[Heiko Haida]

 

Well, as far as I know, FrameMaker was never quite *the* dtp-tool famous
for adequate color-handling. 

The first version that does have a color management independent of the
Window GDI being capable of real CMYK colors is FM 10. So, if specific
color is needed, the best would be working with eps. 

On the other hand, the newer Acrobat versions have a built-in function
(print production tool) for color conversion. You may set everything
e.g. to dot-gain 15%. Dot-gain is a grayscale profile. Look on the
adobe forums for more information. 

There are other tools that provide this conversion on PDF files, like
the Quite suite or PitStop. I would always produce a color PDF first and
reduce color to grayscale in a second step. 

Best regards - 

Tino H. Haida, Berlin 

Steve Rickaby: 

 At 12:53 -0600 13/12/13, Mike Wickham wrote:
 
 This may be a wild stab, but how is color management set up in your PDF 
 .joboptions file? (In Distiller, choose Default Settings, then Settings 
 Edit Adobe PDF Settings Color tab Color Management Policies). (May be 
 different in your old Acrobat version) Some of those settings, as I recall, 
 will change grayscale to color (such as Tag Everything for Color 
 Management). You probably want it set to Leave Color Unchanged.
 
 As a default I'm using 'Press Quality', which in v 6 does have color 
 management set to 'Leave color unchanged'.
 
 My guess is that this is all something to do with FrameMaker's JPEG import 
 filters. The clue is that it does not happen for a TIFF version of any of the 
 problem images when converted from JPEG to TIFF outside of FrameMaker and 
 embedded as TIFFs. It seems to be peculiar to JPEGs.
 
 As Sherlock Holmes used to say, 'When you have eliminated the impossible, 
 whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.' (Or something like 
 that).
 
 -- 
 Steve
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CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just curious]

[Heiko Haida]

Well, as far as I know, FrameMaker was never quite *the* dtp-tool famous
for adequate color-handling. 

The first version that does have a color management independent of the
Window GDI being capable of real CMYK colors is FM 10. So, if specific
color is needed, the best would be working with eps. 

On the other hand, the newer Acrobat versions have a built-in function
(print production tool) for "color conversion". You may set everything
e.g. to "dot-gain 15%". Dot-gain is a grayscale profile. Look on the
adobe forums for more information. 

There are other tools that provide this conversion on PDF files, like
the Quite suite or PitStop. I would always produce a color PDF first and
reduce color to grayscale in a second step. 

Best regards - 

Tino H. Haida, Berlin 

Steve Rickaby: 

> At 12:53 -0600 13/12/13, Mike Wickham wrote:
> 
>> This may be a wild stab, but how is color management set up in your PDF 
>> .joboptions file? (In Distiller, choose "Default Settings", then Settings> 
>> Edit Adobe PDF Settings> Color tab> Color Management Policies). (May be 
>> different in your old Acrobat version) Some of those settings, as I recall, 
>> will change grayscale to color (such as "Tag Everything for Color 
>> Management). You probably want it set to "Leave Color Unchanged."
> 
> As a default I'm using 'Press Quality', which in v 6 does have color 
> management set to 'Leave color unchanged'.
> 
> My guess is that this is all something to do with FrameMaker's JPEG import 
> filters. The clue is that it does not happen for a TIFF version of any of the 
> problem images when converted from JPEG to TIFF outside of FrameMaker and 
> embedded as TIFFs. It seems to be peculiar to JPEGs.
> 
> As Sherlock Holmes used to say, 'When you have eliminated the impossible, 
> whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.' (Or something like 
> that).
> 
> -- 
> Steve
> ___

-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

RE: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)

[Davis, David]

Not wanting to be contrary here, but why does the PDF have to be only 
grayscale, just because it's going to be printed in black and white? Surely the 
printer driver should be perfectly capable of making intelligent decisions 
about converting the colours to grey.
(And, indeed, it will make better decisions than you can earlier in the chain, 
cos it will know more about the output device).

I mean, for instance, any domestic or office printer in existence will happily 
print in greyscale if you feed it a colour file (there's usually a checkbox 
somewhere in the print dialog). I'm sure most of us do and see this every day.  
I appreciate some things look better than others when neutered like this (some 
hues of colour won't give very good contrast against each other in grey) ... 
but the remedy for that is more in choosing the colours in the first place, not 
in some fancy 'conversion to greyscale' process. For instance I can't think 
that green text on an orange background is ever going to be very clear in 
greyscale, no matter what point in the chain you convert it.

David


Message: 2
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:13:14 +
From: Steve Rickaby srick...@wordmongers.demon.co.uk
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just
curious]
Message-ID: p06240810cece7f512aa9@[192.168.0.4]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I know I'm using up all my tokens here, but...

FrameMaker 7 - .ps - Distiller 6 - PDF.

Book contains many JPEGs. Book is to be printed in grayscale, so needs to have 
no information in C, M and Y channels. JPEGs converted to 256-bit grayscale, 
using the same workflow as I've used successfully many times before. Developer 
of graphics editor (Thorsten Lemke, GraphicConverter) looks at JPEG samples and 
swears they contain no color data (and he should know - he's been developing GC 
for maybe 20 years).

JPEGs inserted into FrameMaker and output as .ps, then distilled. In the PDF, 
JPEG images have data in C, M and Y channels

Anyone have any idea how this could happen? The last time it did, I had to send 
pre-press files off to someone who had the latest Acrobat for pre-press fixup. 
Lemke says FrameMaker is putting the color in!

Setting the printer driver to output grayscale only does not fix this - 
although it does map other color such as colored text to the K channel. 

What does fix it is converting the JPEGs to TIFFs.

As my pal in Ohio is fond of saying, 'Go figure!'

-- 
Steve 


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notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from 
your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its 
contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys 
Group, owned by Invensys plc, which is a company registered in England and 
Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 
7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within 
the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com.


You may contact Invensys plc on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail 
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to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its subsidiaries and 
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RE: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)

[Steve Rickaby]

At 02:55 -0600 13/12/13, Davis, David wrote:

Not wanting to be contrary here, but why does the PDF have to be only 
grayscale, just because it's going to be printed in black and white? Surely 
the printer driver should be perfectly capable of making intelligent decisions 
about converting the colours to grey.

Apparently not - I've tried it.

(And, indeed, it will make better decisions than you can earlier in the chain, 
cos it will know more about the output device).

Actually, for all the book's I've sent to press, I've known more or less 
nothing about the output device(S) - I just get a pre-press spec from the 
printers, which often takes the form of a Distiller jobspec file. However, I do 
know a range of things that must not be in the pre-press file, such as 
hairlines. And color ;-)

I mean, for instance, any domestic or office printer in existence will happily 
print in greyscale if you feed it a colour file (there's usually a checkbox 
somewhere in the print dialog). I'm sure most of us do and see this every day. 
 I appreciate some things look better than others when neutered like this 
(some hues of colour won't give very good contrast against each other in grey) 
... but the remedy for that is more in choosing the colours in the first 
place, not in some fancy 'conversion to greyscale' process. For instance I 
can't think that green text on an orange background is ever going to be very 
clear in greyscale, no matter what point in the chain you convert it.

Well I'm not going to argue with you, but I have a pre-press spec to work to, 
and it disallowed C, M and Y channel data.

-- 
Steve
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Re: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just curious]

[Steve Rickaby]

At 21:13 + 11/12/13, Steve Rickaby wrote:

[grayscle] JPEGs inserted into FrameMaker and output as .ps, then distilled. 
In the PDF, JPEG images have data in C, M and Y channels.

I'm going to answer my own question: the only place I can see that this data 
can be coming from is FrameMaker's JPEG import filter.

-- 
Steve
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Re: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just curious]

[Mike Wickham]

This may be a wild stab, but how is color management set up in your PDF 
.joboptions file? (In Distiller, choose Default Settings, then 
Settings Edit Adobe PDF Settings Color tab Color Management 
Policies).  (May be different in your old Acrobat version) Some of those 
settings, as I recall, will change grayscale to color (such as Tag 
Everything for Color Management). You probably want it set to Leave 
Color Unchanged.


Mike Wickham


On 12/11/2013 3:13 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:

I know I'm using up all my tokens here, but...

FrameMaker 7 - .ps - Distiller 6 - PDF.

Book contains many JPEGs. Book is to be printed in grayscale, so needs to have 
no information in C, M and Y channels. JPEGs converted to 256-bit grayscale, 
using the same workflow as I've used successfully many times before. Developer 
of graphics editor (Thorsten Lemke, GraphicConverter) looks at JPEG samples and 
swears they contain no color data (and he should know - he's been developing GC 
for maybe 20 years).

JPEGs inserted into FrameMaker and output as .ps, then distilled. In the PDF, 
JPEG images have data in C, M and Y channels

Anyone have any idea how this could happen? The last time it did, I had to send 
pre-press files off to someone who had the latest Acrobat for pre-press fixup. 
Lemke says FrameMaker is putting the color in!

Setting the printer driver to output grayscale only does not fix this - 
although it does map other color such as colored text to the K channel.

What does fix it is converting the JPEGs to TIFFs.

As my pal in Ohio is fond of saying, 'Go figure!'




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Re: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just curious]

[Steve Rickaby]

At 12:53 -0600 13/12/13, Mike Wickham wrote:

This may be a wild stab, but how is color management set up in your PDF 
.joboptions file? (In Distiller, choose Default Settings, then Settings 
Edit Adobe PDF Settings Color tab Color Management Policies).  (May be 
different in your old Acrobat version) Some of those settings, as I recall, 
will change grayscale to color (such as Tag Everything for Color Management). 
You probably want it set to Leave Color Unchanged.

As a default I'm using 'Press Quality', which in v 6 does have color management 
set to 'Leave color unchanged'.

My guess is that this is all something to do with FrameMaker's JPEG import 
filters. The clue is that it does not happen for a TIFF version of any of the 
problem images when converted from JPEG to TIFF outside of FrameMaker and 
embedded as TIFFs. It seems to be peculiar to JPEGs.

As Sherlock Holmes used to say, 'When you have eliminated the impossible, 
whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.' (Or something like 
that).

-- 
Steve
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CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)

[Davis, David]

Not wanting to be contrary here, but why does the PDF have to be only 
grayscale, just because it's going to be printed in black and white? Surely the 
printer driver should be perfectly capable of making intelligent decisions 
about converting the colours to grey.
(And, indeed, it will make better decisions than you can earlier in the chain, 
cos it will know more about the output device).

I mean, for instance, any domestic or office printer in existence will happily 
print in greyscale if you feed it a colour file (there's usually a checkbox 
somewhere in the print dialog). I'm sure most of us do and see this every day.  
I appreciate some things look better than others when neutered like this (some 
hues of colour won't give very good contrast against each other in grey) ... 
but the remedy for that is more in choosing the colours in the first place, not 
in some fancy 'conversion to greyscale' process. For instance I can't think 
that green text on an orange background is ever going to be very clear in 
greyscale, no matter what point in the chain you convert it.

David


Message: 2
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:13:14 +
From: Steve Rickaby 
To: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just
curious]
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I know I'm using up all my tokens here, but...

FrameMaker 7 -> .ps -> Distiller 6 -> PDF.

Book contains many JPEGs. Book is to be printed in grayscale, so needs to have 
no information in C, M and Y channels. JPEGs converted to 256-bit grayscale, 
using the same workflow as I've used successfully many times before. Developer 
of graphics editor (Thorsten Lemke, GraphicConverter) looks at JPEG samples and 
swears they contain no color data (and he should know - he's been developing GC 
for maybe 20 years).

JPEGs inserted into FrameMaker and output as .ps, then distilled. In the PDF, 
JPEG images have data in C, M and Y channels

Anyone have any idea how this could happen? The last time it did, I had to send 
pre-press files off to someone who had the latest Acrobat for pre-press fixup. 
Lemke says FrameMaker is putting the color in!

Setting the printer driver to output grayscale only does not fix this - 
although it does map other color such as colored text to the K channel. 

What does fix it is converting the JPEGs to TIFFs.

As my pal in Ohio is fond of saying, 'Go figure!'

-- 
Steve 


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CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just)

[Steve Rickaby]

At 02:55 -0600 13/12/13, Davis, David wrote:

>Not wanting to be contrary here, but why does the PDF have to be only 
>grayscale, just because it's going to be printed in black and white? Surely 
>the printer driver should be perfectly capable of making intelligent decisions 
>about converting the colours to grey.

Apparently not - I've tried it.

>(And, indeed, it will make better decisions than you can earlier in the chain, 
>cos it will know more about the output device).

Actually, for all the book's I've sent to press, I've known more or less 
nothing about the output device(S) - I just get a pre-press spec from the 
printers, which often takes the form of a Distiller jobspec file. However, I do 
know a range of things that must not be in the pre-press file, such as 
hairlines. And color ;-)

>I mean, for instance, any domestic or office printer in existence will happily 
>print in greyscale if you feed it a colour file (there's usually a checkbox 
>somewhere in the print dialog). I'm sure most of us do and see this every day. 
> I appreciate some things look better than others when neutered like this 
>(some hues of colour won't give very good contrast against each other in grey) 
>... but the remedy for that is more in choosing the colours in the first 
>place, not in some fancy 'conversion to greyscale' process. For instance I 
>can't think that green text on an orange background is ever going to be very 
>clear in greyscale, no matter what point in the chain you convert it.

Well I'm not going to argue with you, but I have a pre-press spec to work to, 
and it disallowed C, M and Y channel data.

-- 
Steve

CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just curious]

[Steve Rickaby]

At 21:13 + 11/12/13, Steve Rickaby wrote:

>[grayscle] JPEGs inserted into FrameMaker and output as .ps, then distilled. 
>In the PDF, JPEG images have data in C, M and Y channels.

I'm going to answer my own question: the only place I can see that this data 
can be coming from is FrameMaker's JPEG import filter.

-- 
Steve

CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just curious]

[Mike Wickham]

This may be a wild stab, but how is color management set up in your PDF 
.joboptions file? (In Distiller, choose "Default Settings", then 
Settings> Edit Adobe PDF Settings> Color tab> Color Management 
Policies).  (May be different in your old Acrobat version) Some of those 
settings, as I recall, will change grayscale to color (such as "Tag 
Everything for Color Management). You probably want it set to "Leave 
Color Unchanged."

Mike Wickham


On 12/11/2013 3:13 PM, Steve Rickaby wrote:
> I know I'm using up all my tokens here, but...
>
> FrameMaker 7 -> .ps -> Distiller 6 -> PDF.
>
> Book contains many JPEGs. Book is to be printed in grayscale, so needs to 
> have no information in C, M and Y channels. JPEGs converted to 256-bit 
> grayscale, using the same workflow as I've used successfully many times 
> before. Developer of graphics editor (Thorsten Lemke, GraphicConverter) looks 
> at JPEG samples and swears they contain no color data (and he should know - 
> he's been developing GC for maybe 20 years).
>
> JPEGs inserted into FrameMaker and output as .ps, then distilled. In the PDF, 
> JPEG images have data in C, M and Y channels
>
> Anyone have any idea how this could happen? The last time it did, I had to 
> send pre-press files off to someone who had the latest Acrobat for pre-press 
> fixup. Lemke says FrameMaker is putting the color in!
>
> Setting the printer driver to output grayscale only does not fix this - 
> although it does map other color such as colored text to the K channel.
>
> What does fix it is converting the JPEGs to TIFFs.
>
> As my pal in Ohio is fond of saying, 'Go figure!'
>

CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just curious]

[Steve Rickaby]

At 12:53 -0600 13/12/13, Mike Wickham wrote:

>This may be a wild stab, but how is color management set up in your PDF 
>.joboptions file? (In Distiller, choose "Default Settings", then Settings> 
>Edit Adobe PDF Settings> Color tab> Color Management Policies).  (May be 
>different in your old Acrobat version) Some of those settings, as I recall, 
>will change grayscale to color (such as "Tag Everything for Color Management). 
>You probably want it set to "Leave Color Unchanged."

As a default I'm using 'Press Quality', which in v 6 does have color management 
set to 'Leave color unchanged'.

My guess is that this is all something to do with FrameMaker's JPEG import 
filters. The clue is that it does not happen for a TIFF version of any of the 
problem images when converted from JPEG to TIFF outside of FrameMaker and 
embedded as TIFFs. It seems to be peculiar to JPEGs.

As Sherlock Holmes used to say, 'When you have eliminated the impossible, 
whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.' (Or something like 
that).

-- 
Steve

CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just curious]

[Steve Rickaby]

I know I'm using up all my tokens here, but...

FrameMaker 7 - .ps - Distiller 6 - PDF.

Book contains many JPEGs. Book is to be printed in grayscale, so needs to have 
no information in C, M and Y channels. JPEGs converted to 256-bit grayscale, 
using the same workflow as I've used successfully many times before. Developer 
of graphics editor (Thorsten Lemke, GraphicConverter) looks at JPEG samples and 
swears they contain no color data (and he should know - he's been developing GC 
for maybe 20 years).

JPEGs inserted into FrameMaker and output as .ps, then distilled. In the PDF, 
JPEG images have data in C, M and Y channels

Anyone have any idea how this could happen? The last time it did, I had to send 
pre-press files off to someone who had the latest Acrobat for pre-press fixup. 
Lemke says FrameMaker is putting the color in!

Setting the printer driver to output grayscale only does not fix this - 
although it does map other color such as colored text to the K channel. 

What does fix it is converting the JPEGs to TIFFs.

As my pal in Ohio is fond of saying, 'Go figure!'

-- 
Steve 
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CMY data in PDF for JPEGs [do have workaround, but just curious]

[Steve Rickaby]

I know I'm using up all my tokens here, but...

FrameMaker 7 -> .ps -> Distiller 6 -> PDF.

Book contains many JPEGs. Book is to be printed in grayscale, so needs to have 
no information in C, M and Y channels. JPEGs converted to 256-bit grayscale, 
using the same workflow as I've used successfully many times before. Developer 
of graphics editor (Thorsten Lemke, GraphicConverter) looks at JPEG samples and 
swears they contain no color data (and he should know - he's been developing GC 
for maybe 20 years).

JPEGs inserted into FrameMaker and output as .ps, then distilled. In the PDF, 
JPEG images have data in C, M and Y channels

Anyone have any idea how this could happen? The last time it did, I had to send 
pre-press files off to someone who had the latest Acrobat for pre-press fixup. 
Lemke says FrameMaker is putting the color in!

Setting the printer driver to output grayscale only does not fix this - 
although it does map other color such as colored text to the K channel. 

What does fix it is converting the JPEGs to TIFFs.

As my pal in Ohio is fond of saying, 'Go figure!'

-- 
Steve