Re: RANT: FM 9.0

2010-08-06 Thread Chris Despopoulos
Bill says:

>If you get creative with your authoring approach you can
>handle most anything, and for everything else there's the API and
>wonderful tools like FrameScript and IXGen.

If you have found a way to control pods and windows via the FDK, please let me 
know!  I'm desperate!

cud



  
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RANT: FM 9.0

2010-08-06 Thread Chris Despopoulos
Bill says:

>If you get creative with your authoring approach you can
>handle most anything, and for everything else there's the API and
>wonderful tools like FrameScript and IXGen.

If you have found a way to control pods and windows via the FDK, please let me 
know!  I'm desperate!

cud






RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-06 Thread Michael Müller-Hillebrand
Am 04.08.2010 um 07:51 schrieb Steve Johnson:

> And all the people who report bugs with Frame 9 are lying?

Steve, No, they aren't. But some perceived bugs are (only) limitations of the 
software.

> Have they finally fixed the issue where you can't use cross-reference in text 
> insets?

This is a limitation due to the architecture of the software (which serves us 
well in many other places). Cross-references are created between files and each 
file might be used multiple times as a text inset. A cross-reference from or 
into a text inset might appear multiple times. It is possible to handle this in 
a finishing step, just before going to PDF/print. I did this using API 
programming.

> Have they fixed text insets so they don't bleed into the following paragraph?

Please insert a non-breaking space between your text inset insertion point and 
the end of the receiving paragraph.

> Ah, not to worry. As long as the pods are up all is well in the world.

That is your opinion. Others think that all is well (=speedy) if all pods are 
closed. ;-)

- Michael







RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-06 Thread Bill Swallow
>> And all the people who report bugs with Frame 9 are lying?
>
> Steve, No, they aren't. But some perceived bugs are (only) limitations of the 
> software.

Right on, Michael. And likewise, some limitations are only roadblocks
for a select few. I try to look for alternative solutions whenever
possible. If you get creative with your authoring approach you can
handle most anything, and for everything else there's the API and
wonderful tools like FrameScript and IXGen.

>> Ah, not to worry. As long as the pods are up all is well in the world.
>
> That is your opinion. Others think that all is well (=speedy) if all pods are 
> closed. ;-)

I think many of us who have been using FM for 10 years or more would
agree with that. ;-) It's nice that Adobe made Framemaker all "ooh
shiny" to attract new customers, but me... I'd rather just get my work
done. I could do that with older versions because I only had to learn
to use it once. This new IDE-ish pod environment is constantly
tripping me up. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the pod
approach. I've learned many new products that use it. But when I've
used the same tool the same way for more than 12 years, it's quite
disorienting to have the UI completely change. It's like coming home
from vacation to find someone completely gutted your house, built a
new layout, and refurnished the whole thing. Good luck finding the WC!

-- 
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood


Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-06 Thread Bill Swallow
>> And all the people who report bugs with Frame 9 are lying?
>
> Steve, No, they aren't. But some perceived bugs are (only) limitations of the 
> software.

Right on, Michael. And likewise, some limitations are only roadblocks
for a select few. I try to look for alternative solutions whenever
possible. If you get creative with your authoring approach you can
handle most anything, and for everything else there's the API and
wonderful tools like FrameScript and IXGen.

>> Ah, not to worry. As long as the pods are up all is well in the world.
>
> That is your opinion. Others think that all is well (=speedy) if all pods are 
> closed. ;-)

I think many of us who have been using FM for 10 years or more would
agree with that. ;-) It's nice that Adobe made Framemaker all "ooh
shiny" to attract new customers, but me... I'd rather just get my work
done. I could do that with older versions because I only had to learn
to use it once. This new IDE-ish pod environment is constantly
tripping me up. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the pod
approach. I've learned many new products that use it. But when I've
used the same tool the same way for more than 12 years, it's quite
disorienting to have the UI completely change. It's like coming home
from vacation to find someone completely gutted your house, built a
new layout, and refurnished the whole thing. Good luck finding the WC!

-- 
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-06 Thread Michael Müller-Hillebrand
Am 04.08.2010 um 07:51 schrieb Steve Johnson:

> And all the people who report bugs with Frame 9 are lying?

Steve, No, they aren't. But some perceived bugs are (only) limitations of the 
software.

> Have they finally fixed the issue where you can't use cross-reference in text 
> insets?

This is a limitation due to the architecture of the software (which serves us 
well in many other places). Cross-references are created between files and each 
file might be used multiple times as a text inset. A cross-reference from or 
into a text inset might appear multiple times. It is possible to handle this in 
a finishing step, just before going to PDF/print. I did this using API 
programming.

> Have they fixed text insets so they don't bleed into the following paragraph?

Please insert a non-breaking space between your text inset insertion point and 
the end of the receiving paragraph.

> Ah, not to worry. As long as the pods are up all is well in the world.

That is your opinion. Others think that all is well (=speedy) if all pods are 
closed. ;-)

- Michael





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Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-05 Thread Steve Johnson
And all the people who report bugs with Frame 9 are lying? Have they
finally fixed the issue where you can't use cross-reference in text
insets?

Have they fixed text insets so they don't bleed into the following paragraph?

Ah, not to worry. As long as the pods are up all is well in the world.

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 12:13 AM, Mike Wickham  wrote:
>> You should post this where it has a chance of doing some good, on the
>> Adobe forum. My understanding is that Frame 9 was developed entirely
>> overseas, safely away from anyone who might give them adverse but
>> useful feedback.
>
>> It's a big company thing to do: play up the window dressing without
>> fussing too much with anything else.
>
> I wouldn't call it window dressing. I work with a lot of graphics in my
> documents. The Anchored Frame dialog, Object Properties, Runaround
> Properties other other dialogue boxes can now stay on screen for easy
> access. The Inset pod lists all graphics in a document and makes it easy to
> jump to them. There's also a Fonts pod that lists fonts in a document and
> makes it easy to substitute different fonts. You can set up workspaces that
> display only the panels/pods you want and change workspaces with a click.
> And more.
>
> I sure wouldn't besmirch the gang in India for their work on FM. Look at all
> the changes they've made in versions 8.0 and 9.0.-- like Unicode, for
> starters.  Compared to when development was in the U.S., you can see things
> happening. I've been using FM since version 6.0. Versions 7.0, 7.1, and 7.2
> were so little different that few upgraded. If you didn't use DITA, there
> wasn't much sense in it. And when we've reported bugs, the Indian gang has
> actually responded, worked with us, and fixed most of them. They've been
> quiet lately. No doubt they've been busy reading the next new version. Based
> on past cycles, it's due out anytime. I look forward to it.
>
> Mike Wickham
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as dr_go...@pobox.com.
>
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RE: RANT: FM 9.0

2010-08-04 Thread Chris Despopoulos
My fundamental problem is that the new windowing model isn't properly exposed 
in 
the API.  Also, it has some problems.  Open a book, then open all files in 
book.  Especially if it has many files, you get funny results -- the document 
windows nest within each other.  I've raised this issue a number of times, and 
nobody seems to notice.  I can't be the only person experiencing it.  And 
forget 
about using Maker documents as a GUI for your plugins.  There's just not enough 
control.  


I think the plan is that you're supposed to have all windows fully expanded so 
it looks more like an IDE (or RoboHelp).  I guess that's cool, but you often 
want to see docs side by side so you can copy/paste between them.  I suspect 
the 
GUI changes were made by formula, rather than using a real design process based 
on:
* User Profiles
* Problem Statements
* Use Cases
* Feature Design

It would be interesting to know how many authors want to work in a system that 
behaves like a coding IDE.  It would be interesting to know how many separate 
use cases the new GUI explicitly addresses.  Or how many problems it fixes.  In 
short, what *are* the wins for this new GUI, compared to the cost?  It could 
well be that the new GUI is well worth it, and I'm just an old fart.  


OTOH, if the plan was to just "make it look like other Adobe products" without 
any underlying design, then it's not surprising that legacy users can't find 
logic behind the new look and feel.  Most other Adobe products are designed for 
things other than text.  I Iguess I need to work with the ID GUI before I make 
any more pronouncements...

cud



  
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RANT: FM 9.0

2010-08-04 Thread Chris Despopoulos
My fundamental problem is that the new windowing model isn't properly exposed 
in 
the API.  Also, it has some problems.  Open a book, then open all files in 
book.  Especially if it has many files, you get funny results -- the document 
windows nest within each other.  I've raised this issue a number of times, and 
nobody seems to notice.  I can't be the only person experiencing it.  And 
forget 
about using Maker documents as a GUI for your plugins.  There's just not enough 
control.  


I think the plan is that you're supposed to have all windows fully expanded so 
it looks more like an IDE (or RoboHelp).  I guess that's cool, but you often 
want to see docs side by side so you can copy/paste between them.  I suspect 
the 
GUI changes were made by formula, rather than using a real design process based 
on:
* User Profiles
* Problem Statements
* Use Cases
* Feature Design

It would be interesting to know how many authors want to work in a system that 
behaves like a coding IDE.  It would be interesting to know how many separate 
use cases the new GUI explicitly addresses.  Or how many problems it fixes.  In 
short, what *are* the wins for this new GUI, compared to the cost?  It could 
well be that the new GUI is well worth it, and I'm just an old fart.  


OTOH, if the plan was to just "make it look like other Adobe products" without 
any underlying design, then it's not surprising that legacy users can't find 
logic behind the new look and feel.  Most other Adobe products are designed for 
things other than text.  I Iguess I need to work with the ID GUI before I make 
any more pronouncements...

cud






RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-04 Thread Alan T Litchfield
Yo,

On 4/08/2010, at 6:59 AM, Fred Ridder wrote:

>>
> Their intent was to emulate other *Adobe* apps with floating  
> toolbars and dockable dialogs. Over the years, Adobe had made only  
> small changes to the original circa 1990 user interface that they  
> bought from Frame Technologies in 1995, and many people had  
> complained that the UI didn't look sufficiently Adobe-like. The fact  
> that FrameMaker 9.0 has a UI that looks and acts similarly to  
> Adobe's flagship apps should be a great benefit to the minuscule  
> handful of new users who come to FrameMaker from tools like  
> Photoshop or Illustrator or InDesign, but its value to experienced  
> FrameMaker users is (at best) debatable.

Which is why, after testing 9 I am still using 7.

On 4/08/2010, at 7:54 AM, Bill Swallow wrote:

> The tool should not
> get in the way of the task for which it was designed.
>


But of course it should, otherwise you might forget that you are using  
an *Adobe Product*. :P

Lightly
Alan
--
Alan T Litchfield
AlphaByte
PO Box 141, Auckland, 1140
New Zealand
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz/beatrice



RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-04 Thread Mike Wickham
Sorry, I'm retransmitting this for clarity because some of my text was 
inadvertently set as quoteback of another person's message, instead of as my 
own. I'm not sure what happened.

> And all the people who report bugs with Frame 9 are lying?

Lying? Who called anyone a liar? I didn't even say that FM9 was bug free. It 
isn't. I  merely commented that the FM team has made real changes that all 
users can take advantage of, rather than minor changes useful to only the 
DITA crowd.

>Have they finally fixed the issue where you can't use cross-reference in
>text insets?

I don't use text insets, so I'm not sure which issue you mention. There is a
known issue, where cross-references to text insets don't update, UNLESS you
first create the cross-ref marker in the inset SOURCE file. The correct
procedure to prevent this is in FM Help:


===

Insert a cross-reference to a paragraph in a text inset

If you insert a paragraph cross-reference to a text inset, the
cross-reference marker is sometimes lost when the text inset is updated. To
prevent the marker from being lost, first insert a cross-reference to the
paragraph in the text inset's source document.

1. Open the source of the inset by double-clicking the inset and then
clicking Open Source from the Text Inset Properties panel.

2. Insert a cross-reference to the paragraph anywhere in the source
document.

3. Delete the cross-reference text. The marker remains.

4. Save the source document, and then in the document that contains the text
inset, update the text inset by choosing Edit > Update References.

5. Insert a spot cross-reference, this time in the document that contains
the inset. The cross-reference uses the marker in the updated inset.

===

> Have they fixed text insets so they don't bleed into the following
> paragraph?

Again, I'm not sure what you mean, but is this the well-known issue where a
paragraph format carries over to the next paragraph if an inset anchor buts
up against the trailing paragraph mark? That is solved simply by putting a
space between the inset anchor and the trailing paragraph mark.

Mike Wickham




RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-04 Thread Mike Wickham
> And all the people who report bugs with Frame 9 are lying? Lying? Who 
> called anyone a liar? I didn't even say that FM9 was bug free. It isn't. I 
> merely commented that the FM team has made real changes that all users can 
> take advantage of, rather than minor changes useful to only the DITA 
> crowd.

>Have they finally fixed the issue where you can't use cross-reference in 
>text insets?

I don't use text insets, so I'm not sure which issue you mention. There is a 
known issue, where cross-references to text insets don't update, UNLESS you 
first create the cross-ref marker in the inset SOURCE file. The correct 
procedure to prevent this is in FM Help:


===

Insert a cross-reference to a paragraph in a text inset

If you insert a paragraph cross-reference to a text inset, the 
cross-reference marker is sometimes lost when the text inset is updated. To 
prevent the marker from being lost, first insert a cross-reference to the 
paragraph in the text inset's source document.

1. Open the source of the inset by double-clicking the inset and then 
clicking Open Source from the Text Inset Properties panel.

2. Insert a cross-reference to the paragraph anywhere in the source 
document.

3. Delete the cross-reference text. The marker remains.

4. Save the source document, and then in the document that contains the text 
inset, update the text inset by choosing Edit > Update References.

5. Insert a spot cross-reference, this time in the document that contains 
the inset. The cross-reference uses the marker in the updated inset.

===

> Have they fixed text insets so they don't bleed into the following 
> paragraph?

Again, I'm not sure what you mean, but is this the well-known issue where a 
paragraph format carries over to the next paragraph if an inset anchor buts 
up against the trailing paragraph mark? That is solved simply by putting a 
space between the inset anchor and the trailing paragraph mark.

Mike Wickham




Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-04 Thread Mike Wickham
Sorry, I'm retransmitting this for clarity because some of my text was 
inadvertently set as quoteback of another person's message, instead of as my 
own. I'm not sure what happened.



And all the people who report bugs with Frame 9 are lying?


Lying? Who called anyone a liar? I didn't even say that FM9 was bug free. It 
isn't. I  merely commented that the FM team has made real changes that all 
users can take advantage of, rather than minor changes useful to only the 
DITA crowd.



Have they finally fixed the issue where you can't use cross-reference in
text insets?


I don't use text insets, so I'm not sure which issue you mention. There is a
known issue, where cross-references to text insets don't update, UNLESS you
first create the cross-ref marker in the inset SOURCE file. The correct
procedure to prevent this is in FM Help:


===

Insert a cross-reference to a paragraph in a text inset

If you insert a paragraph cross-reference to a text inset, the
cross-reference marker is sometimes lost when the text inset is updated. To
prevent the marker from being lost, first insert a cross-reference to the
paragraph in the text inset's source document.

1. Open the source of the inset by double-clicking the inset and then
clicking Open Source from the Text Inset Properties panel.

2. Insert a cross-reference to the paragraph anywhere in the source
document.

3. Delete the cross-reference text. The marker remains.

4. Save the source document, and then in the document that contains the text
inset, update the text inset by choosing Edit > Update References.

5. Insert a spot cross-reference, this time in the document that contains
the inset. The cross-reference uses the marker in the updated inset.

===


Have they fixed text insets so they don't bleed into the following
paragraph?


Again, I'm not sure what you mean, but is this the well-known issue where a
paragraph format carries over to the next paragraph if an inset anchor buts
up against the trailing paragraph mark? That is solved simply by putting a
space between the inset anchor and the trailing paragraph mark.

Mike Wickham


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Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-04 Thread Mike Wickham
And all the people who report bugs with Frame 9 are lying? Lying? Who 
called anyone a liar? I didn't even say that FM9 was bug free. It isn't. I 
merely commented that the FM team has made real changes that all users can 
take advantage of, rather than minor changes useful to only the DITA 
crowd.


Have they finally fixed the issue where you can't use cross-reference in 
text insets?


I don't use text insets, so I'm not sure which issue you mention. There is a 
known issue, where cross-references to text insets don't update, UNLESS you 
first create the cross-ref marker in the inset SOURCE file. The correct 
procedure to prevent this is in FM Help:



===

Insert a cross-reference to a paragraph in a text inset

If you insert a paragraph cross-reference to a text inset, the 
cross-reference marker is sometimes lost when the text inset is updated. To 
prevent the marker from being lost, first insert a cross-reference to the 
paragraph in the text inset's source document.


1. Open the source of the inset by double-clicking the inset and then 
clicking Open Source from the Text Inset Properties panel.


2. Insert a cross-reference to the paragraph anywhere in the source 
document.


3. Delete the cross-reference text. The marker remains.

4. Save the source document, and then in the document that contains the text 
inset, update the text inset by choosing Edit > Update References.


5. Insert a spot cross-reference, this time in the document that contains 
the inset. The cross-reference uses the marker in the updated inset.


===

Have they fixed text insets so they don't bleed into the following 
paragraph?


Again, I'm not sure what you mean, but is this the well-known issue where a 
paragraph format carries over to the next paragraph if an inset anchor buts 
up against the trailing paragraph mark? That is solved simply by putting a 
space between the inset anchor and the trailing paragraph mark.


Mike Wickham


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RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-04 Thread Steve Johnson
And all the people who report bugs with Frame 9 are lying? Have they
finally fixed the issue where you can't use cross-reference in text
insets?

Have they fixed text insets so they don't bleed into the following paragraph?

Ah, not to worry. As long as the pods are up all is well in the world.

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 12:13 AM, Mike Wickham  wrote:
>> You should post this where it has a chance of doing some good, on the
>> Adobe forum. My understanding is that Frame 9 was developed entirely
>> overseas, safely away from anyone who might give them adverse but
>> useful feedback.
>
>> It's a big company thing to do: play up the window dressing without
>> fussing too much with anything else.
>
> I wouldn't call it window dressing. I work with a lot of graphics in my
> documents. The Anchored Frame dialog, Object Properties, Runaround
> Properties other other dialogue boxes can now stay on screen for easy
> access. The Inset pod lists all graphics in a document and makes it easy to
> jump to them. There's also a Fonts pod that lists fonts in a document and
> makes it easy to substitute different fonts. You can set up workspaces that
> display only the panels/pods you want and change workspaces with a click.
> And more.
>
> I sure wouldn't besmirch the gang in India for their work on FM. Look at all
> the changes they've made in versions 8.0 and 9.0.-- like Unicode, for
> starters. ?Compared to when development was in the U.S., you can see things
> happening. I've been using FM since version 6.0. Versions 7.0, 7.1, and 7.2
> were so little different that few upgraded. If you didn't use DITA, there
> wasn't much sense in it. And when we've reported bugs, the Indian gang has
> actually responded, worked with us, and fixed most of them. They've been
> quiet lately. No doubt they've been busy reading the next new version. Based
> on past cycles, it's due out anytime. I look forward to it.
>
> Mike Wickham
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as dr_gonzo at pobox.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
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>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
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-- 

Steve Johnson, dr_gonzo at pobox.com


RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-04 Thread Mike Wickham
> You should post this where it has a chance of doing some good, on the
> Adobe forum. My understanding is that Frame 9 was developed entirely
> overseas, safely away from anyone who might give them adverse but
> useful feedback.

> It's a big company thing to do: play up the window dressing without
> fussing too much with anything else.

I wouldn't call it window dressing. I work with a lot of graphics in my 
documents. The Anchored Frame dialog, Object Properties, Runaround 
Properties other other dialogue boxes can now stay on screen for easy 
access. The Inset pod lists all graphics in a document and makes it easy to 
jump to them. There's also a Fonts pod that lists fonts in a document and 
makes it easy to substitute different fonts. You can set up workspaces that 
display only the panels/pods you want and change workspaces with a click. 
And more.

I sure wouldn't besmirch the gang in India for their work on FM. Look at all 
the changes they've made in versions 8.0 and 9.0.-- like Unicode, for 
starters.  Compared to when development was in the U.S., you can see things 
happening. I've been using FM since version 6.0. Versions 7.0, 7.1, and 7.2 
were so little different that few upgraded. If you didn't use DITA, there 
wasn't much sense in it. And when we've reported bugs, the Indian gang has 
actually responded, worked with us, and fixed most of them. They've been 
quiet lately. No doubt they've been busy reading the next new version. Based 
on past cycles, it's due out anytime. I look forward to it.

Mike Wickham




Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Mike Wickham

You should post this where it has a chance of doing some good, on the
Adobe forum. My understanding is that Frame 9 was developed entirely
overseas, safely away from anyone who might give them adverse but
useful feedback.



It's a big company thing to do: play up the window dressing without
fussing too much with anything else.


I wouldn't call it window dressing. I work with a lot of graphics in my 
documents. The Anchored Frame dialog, Object Properties, Runaround 
Properties other other dialogue boxes can now stay on screen for easy 
access. The Inset pod lists all graphics in a document and makes it easy to 
jump to them. There's also a Fonts pod that lists fonts in a document and 
makes it easy to substitute different fonts. You can set up workspaces that 
display only the panels/pods you want and change workspaces with a click. 
And more.


I sure wouldn't besmirch the gang in India for their work on FM. Look at all 
the changes they've made in versions 8.0 and 9.0.-- like Unicode, for 
starters.  Compared to when development was in the U.S., you can see things 
happening. I've been using FM since version 6.0. Versions 7.0, 7.1, and 7.2 
were so little different that few upgraded. If you didn't use DITA, there 
wasn't much sense in it. And when we've reported bugs, the Indian gang has 
actually responded, worked with us, and fixed most of them. They've been 
quiet lately. No doubt they've been busy reading the next new version. Based 
on past cycles, it's due out anytime. I look forward to it.


Mike Wickham


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Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Steve Johnson
You should post this where it has a chance of doing some good, on the
Adobe forum. My understanding is that Frame 9 was developed entirely
overseas, safely away from anyone who might give them adverse but
useful feedback.

It's a big company thing to do: play up the window dressing without
fussing too much with anything else.

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:00 AM, Venkat  wrote:
> 
>
> Hello,
>
> I have just migrated to FM 9.0 yesterday and IMHO, am finding the UI a pain
> to use.  Some of the issues that I am having are:
>
> 1. When using structured interface, using F8 to select a character style
> creates a new element of the same type at the point where the style has to
> be applied.
>
> 2. When using F8 to apply the Default Format in FM8, we just used to select
> F8 and then press the  key. This is not possible in FM9 as there is
> an entry "Not Applicable" as the first entry in all the lists.
>
> 3. Dialogs persist and do not behave as required. For example, take the
> "Anchored Frame" dialog. When I want to insert an image in my document, I
> use an element "Image". This by default inserts an anchored frame and the
> "Anchored Frame" dialog box is displayed. However, when I click the  Frame> button in the dialog, the frame is inserted but the dialog box
> changes to the edit mode and retains the focus.
>
> My definition of the "Image" element inserts the "Image Title" element below
> the image when I press the  button again. This action is now gone for
> a toss as I have to close this persistent dialog to get focus back to the
> document. This has slowed me down considerably as I work mostly with the
> keyboard.
>
> My question is
>
> Can these behavior be changed. I do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
> not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in any selectable list.
>
> IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and do not add anything to
> the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In fact, I find it a bit
> of a chore to use it.
>
> Regards,
> Venkatesh Parthasarathy,
> Senior Technical Writer.
>
> --
> ---
> First Do No Harm
> ---
> ___
>
>
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RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Mike Wickham
> And yes, the lack of contrast in the UI itself makes the UI a bit
> difficult to stare at and read, but that appears to be an Adobe thing
> because RoboHelp is the same way, only brighter.

There is some adjustment that's possible: File> Preferences> Interface> UI 
Brightness. There is also a third party plugin that colors the icons (like 
the old style) in the toolbar at: http://www.daube.ch/docu/fmaker55.html.

Mike Wickham




RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread jdela...@comcast.net
Speaking as a newbie, but also more than 40 years old, I really like the 
interface. The black on gray makes the menus and such usable but unobtrusive, 
and I like the fact that I can control the illumination. It's still hard to 
learn (I made a few stabs with FM8), but seems much improved to me. I have no 
history of prior use, and therefore no memories of key commands, etc. Maybe 
they designed 9 to accommodate new users better. 

Jack DeLand 


RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Shmuel Wolfson
By menu-to-ribbon, are you referring to Word? If yes, click on this 
link, then click "Start the guide":
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/interactive-word-2003-to-word-2007-command-reference-guide-HA010074432.aspx

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133


On 03-Aug-10 6:50 PM, Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB wrote:
> Why Adobe would want to emulate Microsoft is beyond me. What's next, a
> dancing paper clip?
>
> We actually purchased 9.0 then down-graded (yes, you can do that) to
> FM8. High volume shop, NO time for an (un)learning curve.
>
> Are there any menu-to-ribbon road maps that one might recommend?
> Eventually, a CMS upgrade will force us to go the FM9.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com
> [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer
> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 11:36 AM
> To: Venkat; Bill Swallow
> Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -
>
> I was cranky about it at first, but I got used to it.
>
> Nadine
>
> --- On Tue, 8/3/10, Bill Swallow  wrote:
>
>
>> From: Bill Swallow
>> Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -
>> To: "Venkat"
>> Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
>> Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 10:27 AM
>>  
>>> Can these behavior be changed. I
>>>
>> do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
>>  
>>> not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in
>>>
>> any selectable list.
>>
>> I don't know. You may need to take some time to wade
>> through maker.ini
>> and see if there's anything in there that can be changed.
>>
>>  
>>> IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and
>>>
>> do not add anything to
>>  
>>> the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In
>>>
>> fact, I find it a bit
>>  
>>> of a chore to use it.
>>>
>> I agree with this. Jumping into FM9 after having used FM
>> for roughly
>> 12 years was a bit of a surprise. While I didn't have time
>> to poke
>> through every feature, I had difficulty wrapping my head
>> around the UI
>> for conditional text (I'm still fuzzy on the order in which
>> selections
>> need to be made in the UI in order for things to "stick").
>> Granted I
>> was in the "UI changes are not necessary" camp from the
>> beginning -
>> because the tool worked very well, as ugly as it may have
>> been - but I
>> think too much time was spent upgrading the UI and not
>> enough time was
>> spent use testing with veteran users.
>>
>> Just as with the MS Office ribbon, one should not have to
>> completely
>> relearn how to use software after a UI update. The same
>> logic,
>> keyboard shortcuts, and expected behavior should be
>> maintained.
>>
>> -- 
>> Bill Swallow
>>
>> Twitter: @techcommdood
>> Blog: http://techcommdood.com
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
>> ___
>>
>>
>> You are currently subscribed to framers as generic668 at yahoo.ca.
>>
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>>  
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>>  
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Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Mike Wickham

And yes, the lack of contrast in the UI itself makes the UI a bit
difficult to stare at and read, but that appears to be an Adobe thing
because RoboHelp is the same way, only brighter.


There is some adjustment that's possible: File> Preferences> Interface> UI 
Brightness. There is also a third party plugin that colors the icons (like 
the old style) in the toolbar at: http://www.daube.ch/docu/fmaker55.html.


Mike Wickham


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RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Bill Swallow
I'll buy that argument, but some consideration for those using it even
before the Adobe years would have been nice.

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:03 PM,   wrote:
> Maybe they designed 9 to accommodate new users better.

-- 
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood


RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB
Hi Fred-

okay.but.Adobe FM started out looking similar to a windows app,
then when windows changed its' UI, FM changed also -
coincidence?!!?



Well, we were test driving FM9 about the same time as Word 2007 (both by
force). The frustration level was interchangeable betwixt the two
application UIs.

True, the new FM UI isn't a "ribbon" but both are feeble attempts (IMHO)
to get cute with the interface.

To me it's the equivalent of New Coke, KISS when they stopped wearing
makeup and costumes, and middle-aged Caucasian pop stars who start
dressing like they came from *da'hood* - COMPLETELY unnecessary, and a
very distasteful experience. Hopefully Adobe has gotten this out of
their system and can now turn their attention to more serious FM
improvements, like the ones clamored-for on this list.

It's interesting to me that both Adobe and MS used "we want it appeal to
new users" as a reason to change the UI of a well-loved, well-used
product. I've been using FM since version 5 was in diapers and I,
myself, have never heard anyone opine that FM just wasn't "Adobe-like"
The only consistent rant I've heard over the years is "multiple undo,
multiple undo, multiple undo, multiple undo." I must run with the
low brow set of FM users  ;^)



You might be right, but I still contend that Adobe just wanted to be
trendy. Maybe I just fear change.

-DJ



-Original Message-
From: Fred Ridder [mailto:docu...@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:59 PM
To: Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB; generic668 at yahoo.ca;
venkat.partha at gmail.com; techcommdood at gmail.com
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: RANT: FM 9.0 -



Darren Butler wrote:



> Why Adobe would want to emulate Microsoft is beyond me. What's next, a

> dancing paper clip?

> 

> We actually purchased 9.0 then down-graded (yes, you can do that) to

> FM8. High volume shop, NO time for an (un)learning curve.

> 

> Are there any menu-to-ribbon road maps that one might recommend?

> Eventually, a CMS upgrade will force us to go the FM9. 



Adobe *didn't* emulate Microsoft, and what they came up with is *not* a
ribbon UI like MS Office has.

Their intent was to emulate other *Adobe* apps with floating toolbars
and dockable dialogs. Over the years, Adobe had made only small changes
to the original circa 1990 user interface that they bought from Frame
Technologies in 1995, and many people had complained that the UI didn't
look sufficiently Adobe-like. The fact that FrameMaker 9.0 has a UI that
looks and acts similarly to Adobe's flagship apps should be a great
benefit to the minuscule handful of new users who come to FrameMaker
from tools like Photoshop or Illustrator or InDesign, but its value to
experienced FrameMaker users is (at best) debatable.

-Fred Ridder





RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Bill Swallow
I wouldn't say it's hard to use, but it certainly is difficult to use
efficiently. As you say, pods are everywhere. I am constantly hiding
and changing the docking location for ones I use regularly because
they are always in the way of the authoring area. The tool should not
get in the way of the task for which it was designed.

And yes, the lack of contrast in the UI itself makes the UI a bit
difficult to stare at and read, but that appears to be an Adobe thing
because RoboHelp is the same way, only brighter.

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Sharon Burton  wrote:
> And speaking as a 40-mumbley-aged person, the contrast of the black text on
> the grey interface sucks, even with my reading glasses. I hate playing with
> all the pods that fly about. I don't like the focus changing unexpectedly, I
> just dislike having to pay so much attention to my interface, as it takes
> away from authoring effort and breaks my concentration.
>
> In general, I really dislike the new interface. It doesn't look like a
> Windows app and it's hard to use.

-- 
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood


RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Fred Ridder

Darren Butler wrote:


> Why Adobe would want to emulate Microsoft is beyond me. What's next, a
> dancing paper clip?
> 
> We actually purchased 9.0 then down-graded (yes, you can do that) to
> FM8. High volume shop, NO time for an (un)learning curve.
> 
> Are there any menu-to-ribbon road maps that one might recommend?
> Eventually, a CMS upgrade will force us to go the FM9. 

Adobe *didn't* emulate Microsoft, and what they came up with is *not* a ribbon 
UI like MS Office has.
Their intent was to emulate other *Adobe* apps with floating toolbars and 
dockable dialogs. Over the years, Adobe had made only small changes to the 
original circa 1990 user interface that they bought from Frame Technologies in 
1995, and many people had complained that the UI didn't look sufficiently 
Adobe-like. The fact that FrameMaker 9.0 has a UI that looks and acts similarly 
to Adobe's flagship apps should be a great benefit to the minuscule handful of 
new users who come to FrameMaker from tools like Photoshop or Illustrator or 
InDesign, but its value to experienced FrameMaker users is (at best) debatable.
-Fred Ridder  


RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Venkat


Hello,

I have just migrated to FM 9.0 yesterday and IMHO, am finding the UI a pain
to use.  Some of the issues that I am having are:

1. When using structured interface, using F8 to select a character style
creates a new element of the same type at the point where the style has to
be applied.

2. When using F8 to apply the Default Format in FM8, we just used to select
F8 and then press the  key. This is not possible in FM9 as there is
an entry "Not Applicable" as the first entry in all the lists.

3. Dialogs persist and do not behave as required. For example, take the
"Anchored Frame" dialog. When I want to insert an image in my document, I
use an element "Image". This by default inserts an anchored frame and the
"Anchored Frame" dialog box is displayed. However, when I click the  button in the dialog, the frame is inserted but the dialog box
changes to the edit mode and retains the focus.

My definition of the "Image" element inserts the "Image Title" element below
the image when I press the  button again. This action is now gone for
a toss as I have to close this persistent dialog to get focus back to the
document. This has slowed me down considerably as I work mostly with the
keyboard.

My question is

Can these behavior be changed. I do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in any selectable list.

IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and do not add anything to
the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In fact, I find it a bit
of a chore to use it.

Regards,
Venkatesh Parthasarathy,
Senior Technical Writer.

-- 
---
First Do No Harm
---


Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Bill Swallow
I'll buy that argument, but some consideration for those using it even
before the Adobe years would have been nice.

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:03 PM,   wrote:
> Maybe they designed 9 to accommodate new users better.

-- 
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Alan T Litchfield

Yo,

On 4/08/2010, at 6:59 AM, Fred Ridder wrote:



Their intent was to emulate other *Adobe* apps with floating  
toolbars and dockable dialogs. Over the years, Adobe had made only  
small changes to the original circa 1990 user interface that they  
bought from Frame Technologies in 1995, and many people had  
complained that the UI didn't look sufficiently Adobe-like. The fact  
that FrameMaker 9.0 has a UI that looks and acts similarly to  
Adobe's flagship apps should be a great benefit to the minuscule  
handful of new users who come to FrameMaker from tools like  
Photoshop or Illustrator or InDesign, but its value to experienced  
FrameMaker users is (at best) debatable.


Which is why, after testing 9 I am still using 7.

On 4/08/2010, at 7:54 AM, Bill Swallow wrote:


The tool should not
get in the way of the task for which it was designed.




But of course it should, otherwise you might forget that you are using  
an *Adobe Product*. :P


Lightly
Alan
--
Alan T Litchfield
AlphaByte
PO Box 141, Auckland, 1140
New Zealand
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz/beatrice

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RE: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB
Hi Fred-

okay.but.Adobe FM started out looking similar to a windows app,
then when windows changed its' UI, FM changed also -
coincidence?!!?

 

Well, we were test driving FM9 about the same time as Word 2007 (both by
force). The frustration level was interchangeable betwixt the two
application UIs.

True, the new FM UI isn't a "ribbon" but both are feeble attempts (IMHO)
to get cute with the interface.

To me it's the equivalent of New Coke, KISS when they stopped wearing
makeup and costumes, and middle-aged Caucasian pop stars who start
dressing like they came from *da'hood* - COMPLETELY unnecessary, and a
very distasteful experience. Hopefully Adobe has gotten this out of
their system and can now turn their attention to more serious FM
improvements, like the ones clamored-for on this list.

It's interesting to me that both Adobe and MS used "we want it appeal to
new users" as a reason to change the UI of a well-loved, well-used
product. I've been using FM since version 5 was in diapers and I,
myself, have never heard anyone opine that FM just wasn't "Adobe-like"
The only consistent rant I've heard over the years is "multiple undo,
multiple undo, multiple undo, multiple undo." I must run with the
low brow set of FM users  ;^)

 

You might be right, but I still contend that Adobe just wanted to be
trendy. Maybe I just fear change.

-DJ

 

-Original Message-
From: Fred Ridder [mailto:docu...@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:59 PM
To: Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB; generic...@yahoo.ca;
venkat.par...@gmail.com; techcommd...@gmail.com
Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: RANT: FM 9.0 -

 

Darren Butler wrote:

 

> Why Adobe would want to emulate Microsoft is beyond me. What's next, a

> dancing paper clip?

> 

> We actually purchased 9.0 then down-graded (yes, you can do that) to

> FM8. High volume shop, NO time for an (un)learning curve.

> 

> Are there any menu-to-ribbon road maps that one might recommend?

> Eventually, a CMS upgrade will force us to go the FM9. 

 

Adobe *didn't* emulate Microsoft, and what they came up with is *not* a
ribbon UI like MS Office has.

Their intent was to emulate other *Adobe* apps with floating toolbars
and dockable dialogs. Over the years, Adobe had made only small changes
to the original circa 1990 user interface that they bought from Frame
Technologies in 1995, and many people had complained that the UI didn't
look sufficiently Adobe-like. The fact that FrameMaker 9.0 has a UI that
looks and acts similarly to Adobe's flagship apps should be a great
benefit to the minuscule handful of new users who come to FrameMaker
from tools like Photoshop or Illustrator or InDesign, but its value to
experienced FrameMaker users is (at best) debatable.

-Fred Ridder

 

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Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread jdeland1
Speaking as a newbie, but also more than 40 years old, I really like the 
interface. The black on gray makes the menus and such usable but unobtrusive, 
and I like the fact that I can control the illumination. It's still hard to 
learn (I made a few stabs with FM8), but seems much improved to me. I have no 
history of prior use, and therefore no memories of key commands, etc. Maybe 
they designed 9 to accommodate new users better. 

Jack DeLand 
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Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Bill Swallow
I wouldn't say it's hard to use, but it certainly is difficult to use
efficiently. As you say, pods are everywhere. I am constantly hiding
and changing the docking location for ones I use regularly because
they are always in the way of the authoring area. The tool should not
get in the way of the task for which it was designed.

And yes, the lack of contrast in the UI itself makes the UI a bit
difficult to stare at and read, but that appears to be an Adobe thing
because RoboHelp is the same way, only brighter.

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Sharon Burton  wrote:
> And speaking as a 40-mumbley-aged person, the contrast of the black text on
> the grey interface sucks, even with my reading glasses. I hate playing with
> all the pods that fly about. I don't like the focus changing unexpectedly, I
> just dislike having to pay so much attention to my interface, as it takes
> away from authoring effort and breaks my concentration.
>
> In general, I really dislike the new interface. It doesn't look like a
> Windows app and it's hard to use.

-- 
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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RE: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Sharon Burton
And speaking as a 40-mumbley-aged person, the contrast of the black text on
the grey interface sucks, even with my reading glasses. I hate playing with
all the pods that fly about. I don't like the focus changing unexpectedly, I
just dislike having to pay so much attention to my interface, as it takes
away from authoring effort and breaks my concentration. 

In general, I really dislike the new interface. It doesn't look like a
Windows app and it's hard to use. 


sharon

Sharon Burton
Content Consultant
www.anthrobytes.com
951-369-8590
IM: sharonvbur...@yahoo.com
Twitter: sharonburton
Blog:anthrobytes.wordpress.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sharonvburton


Darren Butler wrote:
 

> Why Adobe would want to emulate Microsoft is beyond me. What's next, a
> dancing paper clip?
> 
> We actually purchased 9.0 then down-graded (yes, you can do that) to
> FM8. High volume shop, NO time for an (un)learning curve.
> 
> Are there any menu-to-ribbon road maps that one might recommend?
> Eventually, a CMS upgrade will force us to go the FM9. 

[snip]

Their intent was to emulate other *Adobe* apps with floating toolbars and
dockable dialogs. Over the years, Adobe had made only small changes to the
original circa 1990 user interface that they bought from Frame Technologies
in 1995, and many people had complained that the UI didn't look sufficiently
Adobe-like. The fact that FrameMaker 9.0 has a UI that looks and acts
similarly to Adobe's flagship apps should be a great benefit to the
minuscule handful of new users who come to FrameMaker from tools like
Photoshop or Illustrator or InDesign, but its value to experienced
FrameMaker users is (at best) debatable.
-Fred Ridder  
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RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Sharon Burton
And speaking as a 40-mumbley-aged person, the contrast of the black text on
the grey interface sucks, even with my reading glasses. I hate playing with
all the pods that fly about. I don't like the focus changing unexpectedly, I
just dislike having to pay so much attention to my interface, as it takes
away from authoring effort and breaks my concentration. 

In general, I really dislike the new interface. It doesn't look like a
Windows app and it's hard to use. 


sharon

Sharon Burton
Content Consultant
www.anthrobytes.com
951-369-8590
IM: sharonvburton at yahoo.com
Twitter: sharonburton
Blog:anthrobytes.wordpress.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sharonvburton


Darren Butler wrote:


> Why Adobe would want to emulate Microsoft is beyond me. What's next, a
> dancing paper clip?
> 
> We actually purchased 9.0 then down-graded (yes, you can do that) to
> FM8. High volume shop, NO time for an (un)learning curve.
> 
> Are there any menu-to-ribbon road maps that one might recommend?
> Eventually, a CMS upgrade will force us to go the FM9. 

[snip]

Their intent was to emulate other *Adobe* apps with floating toolbars and
dockable dialogs. Over the years, Adobe had made only small changes to the
original circa 1990 user interface that they bought from Frame Technologies
in 1995, and many people had complained that the UI didn't look sufficiently
Adobe-like. The fact that FrameMaker 9.0 has a UI that looks and acts
similarly to Adobe's flagship apps should be a great benefit to the
minuscule handful of new users who come to FrameMaker from tools like
Photoshop or Illustrator or InDesign, but its value to experienced
FrameMaker users is (at best) debatable.
-Fred Ridder  
___


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RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB
I was actually referring to FM but thanks for the Microsoft link.
Ribbons are for typewriters not software.

-Original Message-
From: Shmuel Wolfson [mailto:shmue...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 12:06 PM
To: Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

By menu-to-ribbon, are you referring to Word? If yes, click on this 
link, then click "Start the guide":
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/interactive-word-2003-to-wor
d-2007-command-reference-guide-HA010074432.aspx

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133


On 03-Aug-10 6:50 PM, Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB
wrote:
> Why Adobe would want to emulate Microsoft is beyond me. What's next, a
> dancing paper clip?
>
> We actually purchased 9.0 then down-graded (yes, you can do that) to
> FM8. High volume shop, NO time for an (un)learning curve.
>
> Are there any menu-to-ribbon road maps that one might recommend?
> Eventually, a CMS upgrade will force us to go the FM9.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com
> [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer
> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 11:36 AM
> To: Venkat; Bill Swallow
> Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -
>
> I was cranky about it at first, but I got used to it.
>
> Nadine
>
> --- On Tue, 8/3/10, Bill Swallow  wrote:
>
>
>> From: Bill Swallow
>> Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -
>> To: "Venkat"
>> Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
>> Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 10:27 AM
>>  
>>> Can these behavior be changed. I
>>>
>> do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
>>  
>>> not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in
>>>
>> any selectable list.
>>
>> I don't know. You may need to take some time to wade
>> through maker.ini
>> and see if there's anything in there that can be changed.
>>
>>  
>>> IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and
>>>
>> do not add anything to
>>  
>>> the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In
>>>
>> fact, I find it a bit
>>  
>>> of a chore to use it.
>>>
>> I agree with this. Jumping into FM9 after having used FM
>> for roughly
>> 12 years was a bit of a surprise. While I didn't have time
>> to poke
>> through every feature, I had difficulty wrapping my head
>> around the UI
>> for conditional text (I'm still fuzzy on the order in which
>> selections
>> need to be made in the UI in order for things to "stick").
>> Granted I
>> was in the "UI changes are not necessary" camp from the
>> beginning -
>> because the tool worked very well, as ugly as it may have
>> been - but I
>> think too much time was spent upgrading the UI and not
>> enough time was
>> spent use testing with veteran users.
>>
>> Just as with the MS Office ribbon, one should not have to
>> completely
>> relearn how to use software after a UI update. The same
>> logic,
>> keyboard shortcuts, and expected behavior should be
>> maintained.
>>
>> -- 
>> Bill Swallow
>>
>> Twitter: @techcommdood
>> Blog: http://techcommdood.com
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
>> ___
>>
>>
>> You are currently subscribed to framers as generic668 at yahoo.ca.
>>
>> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>>
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
>> or visit
>>  
>
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/generic668%40yahoo.c
> a
>
>> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com.
>> Visit
>> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and
>> info.
>> 5o
>>  
> ___
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RE: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Fred Ridder

Darren Butler wrote:
 

> Why Adobe would want to emulate Microsoft is beyond me. What's next, a
> dancing paper clip?
> 
> We actually purchased 9.0 then down-graded (yes, you can do that) to
> FM8. High volume shop, NO time for an (un)learning curve.
> 
> Are there any menu-to-ribbon road maps that one might recommend?
> Eventually, a CMS upgrade will force us to go the FM9. 

Adobe *didn't* emulate Microsoft, and what they came up with is *not* a ribbon 
UI like MS Office has.
Their intent was to emulate other *Adobe* apps with floating toolbars and 
dockable dialogs. Over the years, Adobe had made only small changes to the 
original circa 1990 user interface that they bought from Frame Technologies in 
1995, and many people had complained that the UI didn't look sufficiently 
Adobe-like. The fact that FrameMaker 9.0 has a UI that looks and acts similarly 
to Adobe's flagship apps should be a great benefit to the minuscule handful of 
new users who come to FrameMaker from tools like Photoshop or Illustrator or 
InDesign, but its value to experienced FrameMaker users is (at best) debatable.
-Fred Ridder  
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RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB
Why Adobe would want to emulate Microsoft is beyond me. What's next, a
dancing paper clip?

We actually purchased 9.0 then down-graded (yes, you can do that) to
FM8. High volume shop, NO time for an (un)learning curve.

Are there any menu-to-ribbon road maps that one might recommend?
Eventually, a CMS upgrade will force us to go the FM9. 

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 11:36 AM
To: Venkat; Bill Swallow
Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

I was cranky about it at first, but I got used to it.

Nadine

--- On Tue, 8/3/10, Bill Swallow  wrote:

> From: Bill Swallow 
> Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -
> To: "Venkat" 
> Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 10:27 AM
> > Can these behavior be changed. I
> do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
> > not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in
> any selectable list.
> 
> I don't know. You may need to take some time to wade
> through maker.ini
> and see if there's anything in there that can be changed.
> 
> > IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and
> do not add anything to
> > the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In
> fact, I find it a bit
> > of a chore to use it.
> 
> I agree with this. Jumping into FM9 after having used FM
> for roughly
> 12 years was a bit of a surprise. While I didn't have time
> to poke
> through every feature, I had difficulty wrapping my head
> around the UI
> for conditional text (I'm still fuzzy on the order in which
> selections
> need to be made in the UI in order for things to "stick").
> Granted I
> was in the "UI changes are not necessary" camp from the
> beginning -
> because the tool worked very well, as ugly as it may have
> been - but I
> think too much time was spent upgrading the UI and not
> enough time was
> spent use testing with veteran users.
> 
> Just as with the MS Office ribbon, one should not have to
> completely
> relearn how to use software after a UI update. The same
> logic,
> keyboard shortcuts, and expected behavior should be
> maintained.
> 
> -- 
> Bill Swallow
> 
> Twitter: @techcommdood
> Blog: http://techcommdood.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
> ___
> 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to framers as generic668 at yahoo.ca.
> 
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
> 
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
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a
> 
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com.
> Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and
> info.
> 5o

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RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Steve Johnson
You should post this where it has a chance of doing some good, on the
Adobe forum. My understanding is that Frame 9 was developed entirely
overseas, safely away from anyone who might give them adverse but
useful feedback.

It's a big company thing to do: play up the window dressing without
fussing too much with anything else.

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:00 AM, Venkat  wrote:
> 
>
> Hello,
>
> I have just migrated to FM 9.0 yesterday and IMHO, am finding the UI a pain
> to use. ?Some of the issues that I am having are:
>
> 1. When using structured interface, using F8 to select a character style
> creates a new element of the same type at the point where the style has to
> be applied.
>
> 2. When using F8 to apply the Default Format in FM8, we just used to select
> F8 and then press the  key. This is not possible in FM9 as there is
> an entry "Not Applicable" as the first entry in all the lists.
>
> 3. Dialogs persist and do not behave as required. For example, take the
> "Anchored Frame" dialog. When I want to insert an image in my document, I
> use an element "Image". This by default inserts an anchored frame and the
> "Anchored Frame" dialog box is displayed. However, when I click the  Frame> button in the dialog, the frame is inserted but the dialog box
> changes to the edit mode and retains the focus.
>
> My definition of the "Image" element inserts the "Image Title" element below
> the image when I press the  button again. This action is now gone for
> a toss as I have to close this persistent dialog to get focus back to the
> document. This has slowed me down considerably as I work mostly with the
> keyboard.
>
> My question is
>
> Can these behavior be changed. I do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
> not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in any selectable list.
>
> IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and do not add anything to
> the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In fact, I find it a bit
> of a chore to use it.
>
> Regards,
> Venkatesh Parthasarathy,
> Senior Technical Writer.
>
> --
> ---
> First Do No Harm
> ---
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as dr_gonzo at pobox.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
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-- 

Steve Johnson, dr_gonzo at pobox.com


RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Bill Swallow
> Can these behavior be changed. I do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
> not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in any selectable list.

I don't know. You may need to take some time to wade through maker.ini
and see if there's anything in there that can be changed.

> IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and do not add anything to
> the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In fact, I find it a bit
> of a chore to use it.

I agree with this. Jumping into FM9 after having used FM for roughly
12 years was a bit of a surprise. While I didn't have time to poke
through every feature, I had difficulty wrapping my head around the UI
for conditional text (I'm still fuzzy on the order in which selections
need to be made in the UI in order for things to "stick"). Granted I
was in the "UI changes are not necessary" camp from the beginning -
because the tool worked very well, as ugly as it may have been - but I
think too much time was spent upgrading the UI and not enough time was
spent use testing with veteran users.

Just as with the MS Office ribbon, one should not have to completely
relearn how to use software after a UI update. The same logic,
keyboard shortcuts, and expected behavior should be maintained.

-- 
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood


RE: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB
I was actually referring to FM but thanks for the Microsoft link.
Ribbons are for typewriters not software.

-Original Message-
From: Shmuel Wolfson [mailto:shmue...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 12:06 PM
To: Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB
Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

By menu-to-ribbon, are you referring to Word? If yes, click on this 
link, then click "Start the guide":
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/interactive-word-2003-to-wor
d-2007-command-reference-guide-HA010074432.aspx

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133


On 03-Aug-10 6:50 PM, Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB
wrote:
> Why Adobe would want to emulate Microsoft is beyond me. What's next, a
> dancing paper clip?
>
> We actually purchased 9.0 then down-graded (yes, you can do that) to
> FM8. High volume shop, NO time for an (un)learning curve.
>
> Are there any menu-to-ribbon road maps that one might recommend?
> Eventually, a CMS upgrade will force us to go the FM9.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
> [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer
> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 11:36 AM
> To: Venkat; Bill Swallow
> Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -
>
> I was cranky about it at first, but I got used to it.
>
> Nadine
>
> --- On Tue, 8/3/10, Bill Swallow  wrote:
>
>
>> From: Bill Swallow
>> Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -
>> To: "Venkat"
>> Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com
>> Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 10:27 AM
>>  
>>> Can these behavior be changed. I
>>>
>> do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
>>  
>>> not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in
>>>
>> any selectable list.
>>
>> I don't know. You may need to take some time to wade
>> through maker.ini
>> and see if there's anything in there that can be changed.
>>
>>  
>>> IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and
>>>
>> do not add anything to
>>  
>>> the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In
>>>
>> fact, I find it a bit
>>  
>>> of a chore to use it.
>>>
>> I agree with this. Jumping into FM9 after having used FM
>> for roughly
>> 12 years was a bit of a surprise. While I didn't have time
>> to poke
>> through every feature, I had difficulty wrapping my head
>> around the UI
>> for conditional text (I'm still fuzzy on the order in which
>> selections
>> need to be made in the UI in order for things to "stick").
>> Granted I
>> was in the "UI changes are not necessary" camp from the
>> beginning -
>> because the tool worked very well, as ugly as it may have
>> been - but I
>> think too much time was spent upgrading the UI and not
>> enough time was
>> spent use testing with veteran users.
>>
>> Just as with the MS Office ribbon, one should not have to
>> completely
>> relearn how to use software after a UI update. The same
>> logic,
>> keyboard shortcuts, and expected behavior should be
>> maintained.
>>
>> -- 
>> Bill Swallow
>>
>> Twitter: @techcommdood
>> Blog: http://techcommdood.com
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
>> ___
>>
>>
>> You are currently subscribed to framers as generic...@yahoo.ca.
>>
>> Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com.
>>
>> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
>> framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
>> or visit
>>  
>
http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/generic668%40yahoo.c
> a
>
>> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com.
>> Visit
>> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and
>> info.
>> 5o
>>  
> ___
>
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> __

Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Shmuel Wolfson
By menu-to-ribbon, are you referring to Word? If yes, click on this 
link, then click "Start the guide":

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/interactive-word-2003-to-word-2007-command-reference-guide-HA010074432.aspx

Regards,
Shmuel Wolfson
Technical Writer
052-763-7133


On 03-Aug-10 6:50 PM, Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB wrote:

Why Adobe would want to emulate Microsoft is beyond me. What's next, a
dancing paper clip?

We actually purchased 9.0 then down-graded (yes, you can do that) to
FM8. High volume shop, NO time for an (un)learning curve.

Are there any menu-to-ribbon road maps that one might recommend?
Eventually, a CMS upgrade will force us to go the FM9.

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 11:36 AM
To: Venkat; Bill Swallow
Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

I was cranky about it at first, but I got used to it.

Nadine

--- On Tue, 8/3/10, Bill Swallow  wrote:

   

From: Bill Swallow
Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -
To: "Venkat"
Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 10:27 AM
 

Can these behavior be changed. I
   

do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
 

not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in
   

any selectable list.

I don't know. You may need to take some time to wade
through maker.ini
and see if there's anything in there that can be changed.

 

IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and
   

do not add anything to
 

the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In
   

fact, I find it a bit
 

of a chore to use it.
   

I agree with this. Jumping into FM9 after having used FM
for roughly
12 years was a bit of a surprise. While I didn't have time
to poke
through every feature, I had difficulty wrapping my head
around the UI
for conditional text (I'm still fuzzy on the order in which
selections
need to be made in the UI in order for things to "stick").
Granted I
was in the "UI changes are not necessary" camp from the
beginning -
because the tool worked very well, as ugly as it may have
been - but I
think too much time was spent upgrading the UI and not
enough time was
spent use testing with veteran users.

Just as with the MS Office ribbon, one should not have to
completely
relearn how to use software after a UI update. The same
logic,
keyboard shortcuts, and expected behavior should be
maintained.

--
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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Visit
http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and
info.
5o
 

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RE: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Butler, Darren J CTR USAF AFMC 584 CBSS/GBHDB
Why Adobe would want to emulate Microsoft is beyond me. What's next, a
dancing paper clip?

We actually purchased 9.0 then down-graded (yes, you can do that) to
FM8. High volume shop, NO time for an (un)learning curve.

Are there any menu-to-ribbon road maps that one might recommend?
Eventually, a CMS upgrade will force us to go the FM9. 

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 11:36 AM
To: Venkat; Bill Swallow
Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

I was cranky about it at first, but I got used to it.

Nadine

--- On Tue, 8/3/10, Bill Swallow  wrote:

> From: Bill Swallow 
> Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -
> To: "Venkat" 
> Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 10:27 AM
> > Can these behavior be changed. I
> do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
> > not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in
> any selectable list.
> 
> I don't know. You may need to take some time to wade
> through maker.ini
> and see if there's anything in there that can be changed.
> 
> > IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and
> do not add anything to
> > the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In
> fact, I find it a bit
> > of a chore to use it.
> 
> I agree with this. Jumping into FM9 after having used FM
> for roughly
> 12 years was a bit of a surprise. While I didn't have time
> to poke
> through every feature, I had difficulty wrapping my head
> around the UI
> for conditional text (I'm still fuzzy on the order in which
> selections
> need to be made in the UI in order for things to "stick").
> Granted I
> was in the "UI changes are not necessary" camp from the
> beginning -
> because the tool worked very well, as ugly as it may have
> been - but I
> think too much time was spent upgrading the UI and not
> enough time was
> spent use testing with veteran users.
> 
> Just as with the MS Office ribbon, one should not have to
> completely
> relearn how to use software after a UI update. The same
> logic,
> keyboard shortcuts, and expected behavior should be
> maintained.
> 
> -- 
> Bill Swallow
> 
> Twitter: @techcommdood
> Blog: http://techcommdood.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
> ___
> 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to framers as generic...@yahoo.ca.
> 
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a
> 
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com.
> Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and
> info.
> 5o

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Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Writer
I was cranky about it at first, but I got used to it.

Nadine

--- On Tue, 8/3/10, Bill Swallow  wrote:

> From: Bill Swallow 
> Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -
> To: "Venkat" 
> Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 10:27 AM
> > Can these behavior be changed. I
> do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
> > not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in
> any selectable list.
> 
> I don't know. You may need to take some time to wade
> through maker.ini
> and see if there's anything in there that can be changed.
> 
> > IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and
> do not add anything to
> > the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In
> fact, I find it a bit
> > of a chore to use it.
> 
> I agree with this. Jumping into FM9 after having used FM
> for roughly
> 12 years was a bit of a surprise. While I didn't have time
> to poke
> through every feature, I had difficulty wrapping my head
> around the UI
> for conditional text (I'm still fuzzy on the order in which
> selections
> need to be made in the UI in order for things to "stick").
> Granted I
> was in the "UI changes are not necessary" camp from the
> beginning -
> because the tool worked very well, as ugly as it may have
> been - but I
> think too much time was spent upgrading the UI and not
> enough time was
> spent use testing with veteran users.
> 
> Just as with the MS Office ribbon, one should not have to
> completely
> relearn how to use software after a UI update. The same
> logic,
> keyboard shortcuts, and expected behavior should be
> maintained.
> 
> -- 
> Bill Swallow
> 
> Twitter: @techcommdood
> Blog: http://techcommdood.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
> ___
> 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to framers as generic...@yahoo.ca.
> 
> Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com.
> 
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
> or visit 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/generic668%40yahoo.ca
> 
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com.
> Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and
> info.
> 5o

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RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Writer
I was cranky about it at first, but I got used to it.

Nadine

--- On Tue, 8/3/10, Bill Swallow  wrote:

> From: Bill Swallow 
> Subject: Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -
> To: "Venkat" 
> Cc: framers at lists.frameusers.com
> Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010, 10:27 AM
> > Can these behavior be changed. I
> do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
> > not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in
> any selectable list.
> 
> I don't know. You may need to take some time to wade
> through maker.ini
> and see if there's anything in there that can be changed.
> 
> > IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and
> do not add anything to
> > the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In
> fact, I find it a bit
> > of a chore to use it.
> 
> I agree with this. Jumping into FM9 after having used FM
> for roughly
> 12 years was a bit of a surprise. While I didn't have time
> to poke
> through every feature, I had difficulty wrapping my head
> around the UI
> for conditional text (I'm still fuzzy on the order in which
> selections
> need to be made in the UI in order for things to "stick").
> Granted I
> was in the "UI changes are not necessary" camp from the
> beginning -
> because the tool worked very well, as ugly as it may have
> been - but I
> think too much time was spent upgrading the UI and not
> enough time was
> spent use testing with veteran users.
> 
> Just as with the MS Office ribbon, one should not have to
> completely
> relearn how to use software after a UI update. The same
> logic,
> keyboard shortcuts, and expected behavior should be
> maintained.
> 
> -- 
> Bill Swallow
> 
> Twitter: @techcommdood
> Blog: http://techcommdood.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
> ___
> 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to framers as generic668 at yahoo.ca.
> 
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
> 
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/generic668%40yahoo.ca
> 
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com.
> Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and
> info.
> 5o



Re: RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Bill Swallow
> Can these behavior be changed. I do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
> not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in any selectable list.

I don't know. You may need to take some time to wade through maker.ini
and see if there's anything in there that can be changed.

> IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and do not add anything to
> the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In fact, I find it a bit
> of a chore to use it.

I agree with this. Jumping into FM9 after having used FM for roughly
12 years was a bit of a surprise. While I didn't have time to poke
through every feature, I had difficulty wrapping my head around the UI
for conditional text (I'm still fuzzy on the order in which selections
need to be made in the UI in order for things to "stick"). Granted I
was in the "UI changes are not necessary" camp from the beginning -
because the tool worked very well, as ugly as it may have been - but I
think too much time was spent upgrading the UI and not enough time was
spent use testing with veteran users.

Just as with the MS Office ribbon, one should not have to completely
relearn how to use software after a UI update. The same logic,
keyboard shortcuts, and expected behavior should be maintained.

-- 
Bill Swallow

Twitter: @techcommdood
Blog: http://techcommdood.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood
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RANT: FM 9.0 -

2010-08-03 Thread Venkat


Hello,

I have just migrated to FM 9.0 yesterday and IMHO, am finding the UI a pain
to use.  Some of the issues that I am having are:

1. When using structured interface, using F8 to select a character style
creates a new element of the same type at the point where the style has to
be applied.

2. When using F8 to apply the Default Format in FM8, we just used to select
F8 and then press the  key. This is not possible in FM9 as there is
an entry "Not Applicable" as the first entry in all the lists.

3. Dialogs persist and do not behave as required. For example, take the
"Anchored Frame" dialog. When I want to insert an image in my document, I
use an element "Image". This by default inserts an anchored frame and the
"Anchored Frame" dialog box is displayed. However, when I click the  button in the dialog, the frame is inserted but the dialog box
changes to the edit mode and retains the focus.

My definition of the "Image" element inserts the "Image Title" element below
the image when I press the  button again. This action is now gone for
a toss as I have to close this persistent dialog to get focus back to the
document. This has slowed me down considerably as I work mostly with the
keyboard.

My question is

Can these behavior be changed. I do not want dialogs to be persistent. I do
not want the "Not Applicable" element as the first in any selectable list.

IMHO, the changes made in FM9 are just eye-candy and do not add anything to
the whole experience of working with Frame Maker. In fact, I find it a bit
of a chore to use it.

Regards,
Venkatesh Parthasarathy,
Senior Technical Writer.

-- 
---
First Do No Harm
---
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