Re: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-07 Thread Robert Lauriston 
If that was ever true, it's not any more. I go back and forth between
OpenOffice Writer / Calc and MS Word / Excel all the time without
problems.

On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 8:32 AM, Craig Ede  wrote:
> I'm really not a conspiracy  theory kind of guy since I don't enjoy
> wrestling with phantoms, but I do believe that MS has been very careful to
> put in things that will trip up round tripping by any other software.
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Re: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-07 Thread Robert Lauriston 
That looks like a dead project. InfoTrust / Flatirons bought Syntext
and is no longer developing the open-source version.

On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Roger Shuttleworth  wrote:
> Oh yes it is. Or at least there is a free edition.
>
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/sernafree/
>
>
>
> On 03/03/2014 5:36 PM, Robert Lauriston wrote:
>>
>> Serna's not free.
>>
>> http://www.serna-xmleditor.com/shop/serna-xml-editor/
>>
>> Neither are any of the WYSIWYG DITA editors on the Indoition list:
>>
>> http://www.indoition.com/xml-dita-tools-technical-documentation.htm
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 3:40 PM, rebecca officer
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Dan
>>>
>>> How much are you wedded to Frame and Word? If the issue is just that they
>>> need a free editor and you need good PDFs, it could be worth changing
>>> tools.
>>> LaTeX could be a possiblity, as could converting to DITA. With DITA, you
>>> could use Framemaker and they could use a free editor like Serna.
>>
>> ___
>>
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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-06 Thread David Creamer 
InDesign with EmSoftware's WordsFlow plugin can work.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training
http://www.ideastraining.com
Adobe Authorized Instructor & Certified Expert since 1995
Authorized QuarkXPress Instructor and Certified Expert since 1988




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Re: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-05 Thread Roger Shuttleworth 

Oh yes it is. Or at least there is a free edition.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/sernafree/


On 03/03/2014 5:36 PM, Robert Lauriston wrote:

Serna's not free.

http://www.serna-xmleditor.com/shop/serna-xml-editor/

Neither are any of the WYSIWYG DITA editors on the Indoition list:

http://www.indoition.com/xml-dita-tools-technical-documentation.htm

On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 3:40 PM, rebecca officer
 wrote:

Hi Dan

How much are you wedded to Frame and Word? If the issue is just that they
need a free editor and you need good PDFs, it could be worth changing tools.
LaTeX could be a possiblity, as could converting to DITA. With DITA, you
could use Framemaker and they could use a free editor like Serna.

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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-05 Thread Craig Ede 
I'm really not a conspiracy  theory kind of guy since I don't enjoy wrestling 
with phantoms, but I do believe that MS has been very careful to put in things 
that will trip up round tripping by any other software.
 
Craig.
 
> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 12:51:51 +
> ...
> 
> On a historical note, Interleaf implemented Word round-tripping back in the 
> early 90s as a cost-plus option. Seems like things have gone backwards.
> 
> -- 
> Steve
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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-04 Thread Steve Rickaby 
At 21:18 + 3/3/14, a...@ant-davey.com wrote:

>Getting them to use a restrictive number of formats is just the first step 
>towards structured authoring. The ones that really have me tearing my hair out 
>are those who use Heading 1 and maybe Heading 2 and then every subhead below 
>that is Normal+Bold. Those ones are NEVER going to understand the significance 
>of structure.

I think the only way to tackle this sort of problem is at the corporate level. 
Customize *all* Word installations, and get approval from upstairs to lock Word 
down to the customized version.

I used to work with a Word MVP who did this for a client. One click in the 
toolbar, the user interface changed completely, and the total Word environment 
was locked to the corporate templates with all opportunities for local 
formatting removed.

On a historical note, Interleaf implemented Word round-tripping back in the 
early 90s as a cost-plus option. Seems like things have gone backwards.

-- 
Steve
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Re: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-04 Thread Robert Lauriston 
MIF2Go is a big improvement over Frame's native export, but Flare
might have better import.

On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Art Campbell  wrote:
> Before you try Flare, do MIF2Go -- like a number of other writers in the
> thread have said, it's the best way to export from FM to RTF.
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Re: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-03 Thread Art Campbell 
Before you try Flare, do MIF2Go -- like a number of other writers in the
thread have said, it's the best way to export from FM to RTF.

Flare is a decent tool, but if all you need to do is reliably round trip
and you have the rest of your editorial flow working well in Frame... the
conversion is unlikely to be worth the time and effort.

And if the SMEs don't do too much damage during the re-write, it should be
a pretty easy round trip.

Art Campbell
  art.campb...@gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and
a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358

I support www.TheGrotonLine.com, hyperlocal news for Groton MA.


On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 1:52 PM, Robert Lauriston wrote:

> You should get an evaluation copy of MadCap Flare and see if it does
> any better on the return trip. You could try FrameMaker > Flare > Word
> and Word > Flare > FrameMaker, that's possible but I'm not sure if it
> would mean more or less cleanup.
>
> On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Harding, Dan 
> wrote:
> > I'm open to replacing Frame if need be, assuming the replacement is
> > functionally equivalent and capable, especially with respect to indexing
> and
> > handling multi-chapter books. Replacing Word for authors and editors, on
> the
> > other hand, is not an option.
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Re: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-03 Thread Robert Lauriston 
You should get an evaluation copy of MadCap Flare and see if it does
any better on the return trip. You could try FrameMaker > Flare > Word
and Word > Flare > FrameMaker, that's possible but I'm not sure if it
would mean more or less cleanup.

On Mon, Mar 3, 2014 at 8:36 AM, Harding, Dan  wrote:
> I'm open to replacing Frame if need be, assuming the replacement is
> functionally equivalent and capable, especially with respect to indexing and
> handling multi-chapter books. Replacing Word for authors and editors, on the
> other hand, is not an option.
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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-03 Thread a...@ant-davey.com 
Dan,

I also work with internal and external SMEs. And I'm in a boat heading
in the same direction. I envy you if most of your SMEs REALLY know how
to use Word, to the same extent that you know Frame. I've been trying
to get SMEs to use my Word templates, with restricted formatting
options, for over 2 years now. Some are getting it, but there are many
who think that copying an pasting their pre-drafted content into my
template constitutes 'using' the template. And there are those who
don't even pretend to know and still create documents using Normal+
(100% inline formatting).

Getting them to use a restrictive number of formats is just the first
step towards structured authoring. The ones that really have me
tearing my hair out are those who use Heading 1 and maybe Heading 2
and then every subhead below that is Normal+Bold. Those ones are NEVER
going to understand the significance of structure.

Good luck,
Ant

> On 03 March 2014 at 16:36 "Harding, Dan" 
> wrote:
> 
> 
>  I’m open to replacing Frame if need be, assuming the replacement is
> functionally equivalent and capable, especially with respect to
> indexing and handling multi-chapter books. Replacing Word for
> authors and editors, on the other hand, is not an option. Given that
> the authors, editors, and reviewers we use are not just fulltime
> staff, but also external subject-matter experts, we need to be using
> something that is an industry standard. Anything proprietary, that
> requires a major learning curve, or an additional software
> purchase/install would not work well at all.
> 
>  Thanks,
> 
>  -Dan
> 
> 
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Re: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-03 Thread Robert Lauriston 
Serna's not free.

http://www.serna-xmleditor.com/shop/serna-xml-editor/

Neither are any of the WYSIWYG DITA editors on the Indoition list:

http://www.indoition.com/xml-dita-tools-technical-documentation.htm

On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 3:40 PM, rebecca officer
 wrote:
> Hi Dan
>
> How much are you wedded to Frame and Word? If the issue is just that they
> need a free editor and you need good PDFs, it could be worth changing tools.
> LaTeX could be a possiblity, as could converting to DITA. With DITA, you
> could use Framemaker and they could use a free editor like Serna.
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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-03 Thread Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net) 
At 09:57 -0800 3/3/14, Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net) wrote:
> > Agreed that LaTeX has a steep learning curve and, in this WYSIWYG world, it 
> > may seem
> > like a step backward to some people. However, the power and flexibility 
> > (with highly
> > consistent formatted output) is very appealing in some cases.

> > With regard to hyphenation, it sounds like the person writing the thesis 
> > was not providing
> > hyphenation hints. You can use the \hyphenation command to identify the 
> > break points
> > in a set of unusual words, and LaTeX will do the right thing after that 
> > whenever it sees those words.

Steve Rickaby wrote:
> It was just an example taken at random from recent experience. I'm sure there 
> is a workaround,
> but the writer is a software expert and researcher, and the fact that he 
> didn't know about this sort
> of proves my case - that getting good results out of LaTeX requires deep 
> knowledge ;-) I am sure
> that it can be made to do great things, but I've never seen what I would 
> consider acceptable results
> come out of it in the the hands of non-experts.

Oh, yes, understood and agreed!

It definitely does take much more effort to learn and use LaTeX. And the 
problem is that there are _often_ add-in packages that will fix any issue that 
is observed in output.

But researching and learning the availability (and nuances) of a particular 
package for a particular issue does take time. Time that is well-spent if LaTeX 
is the primary tool, but not as easy to justify for occasional work, yes.

Z

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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-03 Thread Steve Rickaby 
At 09:57 -0800 3/3/14, Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net) wrote:

>Agreed that LaTeX has a steep learning curve and, in this WYSIWYG world, it 
>may seem like a step backward to some people. However, the power and 
>flexibility (with highly consistent formatted output) is very appealing in 
>some cases.
>
>With regard to hyphenation, it sounds like the person writing the thesis was 
>not providing hyphenation hints. You can use the \hyphenation command to 
>identify the break points in a set of unusual words, and LaTeX will do the 
>right thing after that whenever it sees those words.

It was just an example taken at random from recent experience. I'm sure there 
is a workaround, but the writer is a software expert and researcher, and the 
fact that he didn't know about this sort of proves my case - that getting good 
results out of LaTeX requires deep knowledge ;-) I am sure that it can be made 
to do great things, but I've never seen what I would consider acceptable 
results come out of it in the the hands of non-experts.

-- 
Steve [Trim e-mails: use less disk, use less power, use less planet]
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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-03 Thread Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net) 
Agreed that LaTeX has a steep learning curve and, in this WYSIWYG world, it may 
seem like a step backward to some people. However, the power and flexibility 
(with highly consistent formatted output) is very appealing in some cases.

With regard to hyphenation, it sounds like the person writing the thesis was 
not providing hyphenation hints. You can use the \hyphenation command to 
identify the break points in a set of unusual words, and LaTeX will do the 
right thing after that whenever it sees those words.

Or you can also use hyphenation marks in the wording of the text as needed. So 
that if the text flow changes later, the hyphens are _not_ shown when the word 
is not at the end of the line. This is best used for the occasional word, 
rather than using hyphenation hints for all occurrences of an unusual word.

Z

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rickaby
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 9:46 AM
To: Harding, Dan; rebecca officer; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

At 16:36 + 3/3/14, Harding, Dan wrote:

>Anything proprietary, that requires a major learning curve, or an additional 
>software purchase/install would not work well at all.

With all respect to Rebecca, in that case I would be very cautious about LaTeX. 
Yes, it's free, and yes, it works, but if you want to deviate from the designs 
dictated by existing packages (correct term?), you are then into a very big 
learning issue, requiring deep knowledge of TeX itself. LaTeX can be made to do 
amazing things in the hands of an expert, but I've yet to see a predefined 
package produce acceptable results: there's always some wrinkle the package 
developer hasn't thought of, and which you can't fix.

As a small example, I recently copy-edited a thesis done in LaTeX. The package 
designer had never considered that an author might want to embed 
non-proportional character markup, which is very common in software 
documentation, where camel-case is a convention, i.e. 'ThisIsaThing'. Such 
words are almost always non-dictionary words. In this case, if such a word fell 
at the right-hand margin of the text page, LaTeX simply didn't bother to try to 
hyphenate it, resulting in gross margin violation and the author having to 
manually break such words *in the LaTeX source*. Of course, any editing that 
resulted in text flow destroyed this, with the manually hyphenated word now 
appearing hyphenated within a line. Yech.

-- 
Steve
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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-03 Thread Steve Rickaby 
At 16:36 + 3/3/14, Harding, Dan wrote:

>Anything proprietary, that requires a major learning curve, or an additional 
>software purchase/install would not work well at all.

With all respect to Rebecca, in that case I would be very cautious about LaTeX. 
Yes, it's free, and yes, it works, but if you want to deviate from the designs 
dictated by existing packages (correct term?), you are then into a very big 
learning issue, requiring deep knowledge of TeX itself. LaTeX can be made to do 
amazing things in the hands of an expert, but I've yet to see a predefined 
package produce acceptable results: there's always some wrinkle the package 
developer hasn't thought of, and which you can't fix.

As a small example, I recently copy-edited a thesis done in LaTeX. The package 
designer had never considered that an author might want to embed 
non-proportional character markup, which is very common in software 
documentation, where camel-case is a convention, i.e. 'ThisIsaThing'. Such 
words are almost always non-dictionary words. In this case, if such a word fell 
at the right-hand margin of the text page, LaTeX simply didn't bother to try to 
hyphenate it, resulting in gross margin violation and the author having to 
manually break such words *in the LaTeX source*. Of course, any editing that 
resulted in text flow destroyed this, with the manually hyphenated word now 
appearing hyphenated within a line. Yech.

-- 
Steve
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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-03 Thread Harding, Dan 
I'm open to replacing Frame if need be, assuming the replacement is 
functionally equivalent and capable, especially with respect to indexing and 
handling multi-chapter books. Replacing Word for authors and editors, on the 
other hand, is not an option. Given that the authors, editors, and reviewers we 
use are not just fulltime staff, but also external subject-matter experts, we 
need to be using something that is an industry standard. Anything proprietary, 
that requires a major learning curve, or an additional software 
purchase/install would not work well at all.
Thanks,
-Dan

From: rebecca officer [mailto:rebecca.offi...@alliedtelesis.co.nz]
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 5:41 PM
To: Harding, Dan; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

Hi Dan

How much are you wedded to Frame and Word? If the issue is just that they need 
a free editor and you need good PDFs, it could be worth changing tools. LaTeX 
could be a possiblity, as could converting to DITA. With DITA, you could use 
Framemaker and they could use a free editor like Serna.

Cheers
Rebecca


>>> "Harding, Dan" mailto:dhard...@illinois.edu>> 
>>> 28/02/14 02:53 >>>
I initially tried that method, as the formatting results are wonderful when you 
get to Word, considerably better than the direct RTF export. However, in going 
that route all index markers are lost (whereas when you export to RTF from 
Frame they are retained).

Any solution that deletes the index markers is a nonstarter for us.

Thanks.

-Dan

-Original Message-
From: Alan Salo (Ariens Plant 1) [mailto:as...@ariens.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 9:17 AM
To: Harding, Dan; 
framers@lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

Hi everyone. First post.

My team converts our material to Word frequently for our Product Support group 
to use.

Our trick is to create a pdf of the Frame document (as we normally do; our 
preferred delivery). We then use Acrobat's File... > Save As Other... > 
Microsoft Word... to create a .docx Word doc. Even the tables stay tidy.

We're on Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise, FrameMaker 11 and Acrobat Pro XI.

Thanks,
Alan

-Original Message-
From: 
framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com>
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Harding, Dan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 8:21 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com<mailto:framers@lists.frameusers.com>
Subject: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

Good morning,

We have used the same authoring process for eons: Authors/editors work in MS 
Word, as well as preliminary indexing work. I then take the MS Word file, 
import into FM (unstructured) and do the final print-ready formatting, making 
things adhere to our publishing standards and tightening up consistency.

As a process it work well... until it's time to revise the book for the next 
edition.

Our authors and editors will ONLY work in MS Word. PDF comments/revisions will 
not work, as there frequently are extensive revisions including insertion of 
new sections (multiple pages) of content, as well as shuffling of content.

When I export the final FM version back to MS Word for them to work on, the 
conversion is VERY crude and frequently requires extensive work on the 
post-conversion Word files for the editors to be able to work within the files.

Then of course there's the reformatting from scratch in FM when the revisions 
are done (which actually is faster and more reliable than trying to reconcile 
changes in the MS Word version with the existing FM version).

Is there a better way to perform the round-trip process given the MS Word 
requirement, and barring that, are there better ways/tools to get cleaner MS 
Word files from FM than exporting to RTF?

Would making the change from unstructured to structured FM on my part help in 
this regard?

Environment:

Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise
Framemaker 10 (unstructured) [NOTE: TCS 5 is on order but I have not received 
it yet.] Microsoft Office 2010

Thank you in advance.

Dan Harding
University of Illinois Tax School

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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-03-03 Thread rebecca officer 
Hi Dan
 
How much are you wedded to Frame and Word? If the issue is just that they need 
a free editor and you need good PDFs, it could be worth changing tools. LaTeX 
could be a possiblity, as could converting to DITA. With DITA, you could use 
Framemaker and they could use a free editor like Serna.
 
Cheers
Rebecca


>>> "Harding, Dan"  28/02/14 02:53 >>>
I initially tried that method, as the formatting results are wonderful when you 
get to Word, considerably better than the direct RTF export. However, in going 
that route all index markers are lost (whereas when you export to RTF from 
Frame they are retained).

Any solution that deletes the index markers is a nonstarter for us.

Thanks.

-Dan

-Original Message-
From: Alan Salo (Ariens Plant 1) [mailto:as...@ariens.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 9:17 AM
To: Harding, Dan; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

Hi everyone. First post.

My team converts our material to Word frequently for our Product Support group 
to use.

Our trick is to create a pdf of the Frame document (as we normally do; our 
preferred delivery). We then use Acrobat's File... > Save As Other... > 
Microsoft Word... to create a .docx Word doc. Even the tables stay tidy.

We're on Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise, FrameMaker 11 and Acrobat Pro XI.

Thanks,
Alan

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Harding, Dan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 8:21 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

Good morning,

We have used the same authoring process for eons: Authors/editors work in MS 
Word, as well as preliminary indexing work. I then take the MS Word file, 
import into FM (unstructured) and do the final print-ready formatting, making 
things adhere to our publishing standards and tightening up consistency.

As a process it work well... until it's time to revise the book for the next 
edition.

Our authors and editors will ONLY work in MS Word. PDF comments/revisions will 
not work, as there frequently are extensive revisions including insertion of 
new sections (multiple pages) of content, as well as shuffling of content.

When I export the final FM version back to MS Word for them to work on, the 
conversion is VERY crude and frequently requires extensive work on the 
post-conversion Word files for the editors to be able to work within the files.

Then of course there's the reformatting from scratch in FM when the revisions 
are done (which actually is faster and more reliable than trying to reconcile 
changes in the MS Word version with the existing FM version).

Is there a better way to perform the round-trip process given the MS Word 
requirement, and barring that, are there better ways/tools to get cleaner MS 
Word files from FM than exporting to RTF?

Would making the change from unstructured to structured FM on my part help in 
this regard?

Environment:

Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise
Framemaker 10 (unstructured) [NOTE: TCS 5 is on order but I have not received 
it yet.] Microsoft Office 2010

Thank you in advance.

Dan Harding
University of Illinois Tax School

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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-02-27 Thread Harding, Dan 
I initially tried that method, as the formatting results are wonderful when you 
get to Word, considerably better than the direct RTF export. However, in going 
that route all index markers are lost (whereas when you export to RTF from 
Frame they are retained).

Any solution that deletes the index markers is a nonstarter for us.

Thanks.

-Dan

-Original Message-
From: Alan Salo (Ariens Plant 1) [mailto:as...@ariens.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 9:17 AM
To: Harding, Dan; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

Hi everyone. First post.

My team converts our material to Word frequently for our Product Support group 
to use.

Our trick is to create a pdf of the Frame document (as we normally do; our 
preferred delivery). We then use Acrobat's File... > Save As Other... > 
Microsoft Word... to create a .docx Word doc. Even the tables stay tidy.

We're on Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise, FrameMaker 11 and Acrobat Pro XI.

Thanks,
Alan

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Harding, Dan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 8:21 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

Good morning,

We have used the same authoring process for eons: Authors/editors work in MS 
Word, as well as preliminary indexing work. I then take the MS Word file, 
import into FM (unstructured) and do the final print-ready formatting, making 
things adhere to our publishing standards and tightening up consistency.

As a process it work well... until it's time to revise the book for the next 
edition.

Our authors and editors will ONLY work in MS Word. PDF comments/revisions will 
not work, as there frequently are extensive revisions including insertion of 
new sections (multiple pages) of content, as well as shuffling of content.

When I export the final FM version back to MS Word for them to work on, the 
conversion is VERY crude and frequently requires extensive work on the 
post-conversion Word files for the editors to be able to work within the files.

Then of course there's the reformatting from scratch in FM when the revisions 
are done (which actually is faster and more reliable than trying to reconcile 
changes in the MS Word version with the existing FM version).

Is there a better way to perform the round-trip process given the MS Word 
requirement, and barring that, are there better ways/tools to get cleaner MS 
Word files from FM than exporting to RTF?

Would making the change from unstructured to structured FM on my part help in 
this regard?

Environment:

Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise
Framemaker 10 (unstructured) [NOTE: TCS 5 is on order but I have not received 
it yet.] Microsoft Office 2010

Thank you in advance.

Dan Harding
University of Illinois Tax School

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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-02-27 Thread Craig, Alison 
I have to convert a PDF to Word occasionally but I never convert with Acrobat. 
I use BCL easy Converter (I think it cost $20).

The output to an RTF is way better than what I can get from a PDF to Word via 
Acrobat. But it's still not great. 

If the output was for my use, I'd have to protest loudly to try for a better 
option - or call in sick whenever it was necessary ;-)))

Alison


-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain 
(syed.hos...@aeris.net)
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 6:37 AM
To: Alan Salo (Ariens Plant 1); Harding, Dan; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

Alan Salo wrote:
> My team converts our material to Word frequently for our Product Support 
> group to use.
> Our trick is to create a pdf of the Frame document (as we normally do; our 
> preferred delivery). We then use Acrobat's File... > Save As Other... > 
> Microsoft Word... to create a .docx Word doc. Even the tables stay tidy.
> We're on Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise, FrameMaker 11 and Acrobat Pro XI.

This approach did not work for me unfortunately when I was converting a 
FrameMaker documents to Word for one of our guys. (Same platform, versions, 
etc.) The Acrobat output in Word form was barely usable ... I spent quite a bit 
of time with manual edits.

I also tried to use PDF Converter (to bring the PDF into Word) and it actually 
worked better for the text, but missed some critical items (I forget what the 
problem was), so I ended up not using it.

For another project, I ended up using MIF2Go that I had purchased in the 
interim, and it was _much_ better ... _far_ less manual fixing afterwards.

Z

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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-02-27 Thread Veronica Kutt 
Hi everyone,

I'm Veronica Kutt, with Front Runner Training, a div. of Front Runner
Publishing Solutions Inc., we're working with a software vendor, Infoware
Canada Inc., specializing in MS Office automation solutions.


Yes, there is a Word add-in tool that will help speed up the cleanup
process.

Word Renovation Tools, by Infoware. 

Reconstruct Word Documents Quickly and Safely

Word Renovation Tools (WRT)
Turn legacy or problem Word documents into clean, safe documents free from
meta-data and document history. If your issues are caused by problems with
numbering, direct formatting or documents with a lot of history, WRT has the
tools to help.

Here is a link to view the information sheet for the WRT tool,
http://www.front-runner.com/software/SoftwareDetail.php?sid=7

Feel free to call or email to discuss or to arrange a demo.

Thank you,

Warm Regards,

Veronica Kutt
President
Front Runner Training, a div. of Front Runner Publishing Solutions Inc.
(Local) 416-515-0155
(Toll Free) 1-877-999-0155

Follow me on https://twitter.com/@Veronica_FR
Connect with me on LinkedIn ca.linkedin.com/in/veronicakutt



-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain
(syed.hos...@aeris.net)
Sent: February-27-14 9:37 AM
To: Alan Salo (Ariens Plant 1); Harding, Dan; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

Alan Salo wrote:
> My team converts our material to Word frequently for our Product Support
group to use.
> Our trick is to create a pdf of the Frame document (as we normally do; our
preferred delivery). We then use Acrobat's File... > Save As Other... >
Microsoft Word... to create a .docx Word doc. Even the tables stay tidy.
> We're on Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise, FrameMaker 11 and Acrobat Pro XI.

This approach did not work for me unfortunately when I was converting a
FrameMaker documents to Word for one of our guys. (Same platform, versions,
etc.) The Acrobat output in Word form was barely usable ... I spent quite a
bit of time with manual edits.

I also tried to use PDF Converter (to bring the PDF into Word) and it
actually worked better for the text, but missed some critical items (I
forget what the problem was), so I ended up not using it.

For another project, I ended up using MIF2Go that I had purchased in the
interim, and it was _much_ better ... _far_ less manual fixing afterwards.

Z

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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-02-27 Thread Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net) 
Alan Salo wrote:
> My team converts our material to Word frequently for our Product Support 
> group to use.
> Our trick is to create a pdf of the Frame document (as we normally do; our 
> preferred delivery). We then use Acrobat's File... > Save As Other... > 
> Microsoft Word... to create a .docx Word doc. Even the tables stay tidy.
> We're on Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise, FrameMaker 11 and Acrobat Pro XI.

This approach did not work for me unfortunately when I was converting a 
FrameMaker documents to Word for one of our guys. (Same platform, versions, 
etc.) The Acrobat output in Word form was barely usable ... I spent quite a bit 
of time with manual edits.

I also tried to use PDF Converter (to bring the PDF into Word) and it actually 
worked better for the text, but missed some critical items (I forget what the 
problem was), so I ended up not using it.

For another project, I ended up using MIF2Go that I had purchased in the 
interim, and it was _much_ better ... _far_ less manual fixing afterwards.

Z

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Re: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-02-26 Thread Robert Lauriston 
How's the re-import into FrameMaker?

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 7:17 AM, Alan Salo (Ariens Plant 1)
 wrote:
> Our trick is to create a pdf of the Frame document (as we normally do;
> our preferred delivery). We then use Acrobat's File... > Save As
> Other... > Microsoft Word... to create a .docx Word doc. Even the tables
> stay tidy.
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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-02-26 Thread Alan Salo (Ariens Plant 1) 
Hi everyone. First post.

My team converts our material to Word frequently for our Product Support
group to use.

Our trick is to create a pdf of the Frame document (as we normally do;
our preferred delivery). We then use Acrobat's File... > Save As
Other... > Microsoft Word... to create a .docx Word doc. Even the tables
stay tidy.

We're on Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise, FrameMaker 11 and Acrobat Pro XI.

Thanks,
Alan

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Harding, Dan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 8:21 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

Good morning,

We have used the same authoring process for eons: Authors/editors work
in MS Word, as well as preliminary indexing work. I then take the MS
Word file, import into FM (unstructured) and do the final print-ready
formatting, making things adhere to our publishing standards and
tightening up consistency.

As a process it work well... until it's time to revise the book for the
next edition.

Our authors and editors will ONLY work in MS Word. PDF
comments/revisions will not work, as there frequently are extensive
revisions including insertion of new sections (multiple pages) of
content, as well as shuffling of content.

When I export the final FM version back to MS Word for them to work on,
the conversion is VERY crude and frequently requires extensive work on
the post-conversion Word files for the editors to be able to work within
the files.

Then of course there's the reformatting from scratch in FM when the
revisions are done (which actually is faster and more reliable than
trying to reconcile changes in the MS Word version with the existing FM
version).

Is there a better way to perform the round-trip process given the MS
Word requirement, and barring that, are there better ways/tools to get
cleaner MS Word files from FM than exporting to RTF?

Would making the change from unstructured to structured FM on my part
help in this regard?

Environment:

Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise
Framemaker 10 (unstructured) [NOTE: TCS 5 is on order but I have not
received it yet.] Microsoft Office 2010

Thank you in advance.

Dan Harding
University of Illinois Tax School

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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-02-25 Thread Keith Soltys 
I saw the PDF with  comments import feature being demoed at an STC meeting 
earlier this month and it did appear to work, at least in the simple case being 
shown. But the document was changed after the PDF was created and the comments 
ended up exactly where they should have been.

It's something I'd like to implement here but I have to wait until we get our 
Acrobat readers upgraded to a more current version.

Regards
Keith

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rickaby
Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2014 2:12 PM
To: Rick Quatro; 'Harding, Dan'; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

At 09:40 -0500 22/2/14, Rick Quatro wrote:

>Mif2Go by Omsys is a much better way to get good Word output from
>FrameMaker. They will tell you that there is no good tool for
>round-tripping between Word and FrameMaker, but if you are doing it
>anyway, you might as well make the Frame to Word side as good as
>possible. I highly recommend Mif2Go.

Just to add to what Rick's said, there's a helpful section (6.1) in the Mif2Go 
manual, which you can download from the Omni Systems site, explaining just why 
Word doesn't play well with FrameMaker.

<http://mif2go.com/download/ug>

Just a thought, taking a more global view... FrameMaker 12 claims to be able to 
import PDFs with comments into the original FrameMaker source document, *even 
if it has changed*. I have no experience of how well it works (yet ;-), but you 
might want to review this new feature.

--
Steve

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Re: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-02-25 Thread gr...@hedgewizard.net 
If you are using FM's native RTF, it's always been a bit dodgy.
(Though the PDF-to-Word exporter is even more so!)

I would *highly* recommend that you invest in a copy of MIF2Go
(http://mif2go.com/).  It provides a MUCH better output.

Grant

> On February 21, 2014 at 7:20 AM "Harding, Dan"  wrote:
>
>
> Good morning,
>
> We have used the same authoring process for eons: Authors/editors work in MS
> Word, as well as preliminary indexing work. I then take the MS Word file,
> import into FM (unstructured) and do the final print-ready formatting, making
> things adhere to our publishing standards and tightening up consistency.
>
> As a process it work well... until it's time to revise the book for the next
> edition.
>
> Our authors and editors will ONLY work in MS Word. PDF comments/revisions will
> not work, as there frequently are extensive revisions including insertion of
> new sections (multiple pages) of content, as well as shuffling of content.
>
> When I export the final FM version back to MS Word for them to work on, the
> conversion is VERY crude and frequently requires extensive work on the
> post-conversion Word files for the editors to be able to work within the
> files.
>
> Then of course there's the reformatting from scratch in FM when the revisions
> are done (which actually is faster and more reliable than trying to reconcile
> changes in the MS Word version with the existing FM version).
>
> Is there a better way to perform the round-trip process given the MS Word
> requirement, and barring that, are there better ways/tools to get cleaner MS
> Word files from FM than exporting to RTF?
>
> Would making the change from unstructured to structured FM on my part help in
> this regard?
>
> Environment:
>
> Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise
> Framemaker 10 (unstructured) [NOTE: TCS 5 is on order but I have not received
> it yet.]
> Microsoft Office 2010
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
> Dan Harding
> University of Illinois Tax School
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as gr...@hedgewizard.net.
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Re: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-02-25 Thread Robert Lauriston 
Second on MIF2Go. It can be a challenge to configure the first time
but the output is far superior to FM's native export and you have a
lot more control. Here are the settings from a mif2htm.ini file that
worked for me:

[Options]
Output=Standard
EqVertAdjust=18

[Setup]
UseExistingMIF=No
DeleteMIF=Yes
ConversionDesigner=No
WordSuffix=.rtf
ApplyTemplateFile=No
ConvertVariables=Yes
GenerateBook=No
UseFrameTOC=No
UseFrameIX=No
UseFrameGenFiles=No
WriteEquations=Yes
WriteAllGraphics=No
WriteRefPageGraphics=Yes
WriteMasterPageGraphics=Yes
UseGraphicFileID=Yes
GraphicNameDigits=6
GraphicExportDPI=96
EquationExportDPI=120
EquationFrameExpand=125
GraphicExportFormat=WMF
PrjFileName=
IDFileName=
PluginVersion=b112
UseExistingDCL=No

[Automation]
WrapAndShip=No
WrapPath=.\wrap
ShipPath=.\wrap

[Fonts]
Times=Times New Roman
Helvetica=Arial
Courier=Courier New
HelveticaNarrow=Arial Narrow
Helvetica-Narrow=Arial Narrow
Century Schoolbook=NewCenturySchlbk
Common Bullets=CommonBullets

[Defaults]

[Graphics]
UseGraphicPreviews=No
GrVertAdjust=8

[GraphFiles]

[GraphExport]
ImportGraphics=Normal
ExportNameChars=4
ExportNumDigits=4

[WordOptions]
Word8=Yes
WordPerfect=No
HeadFoot=None
HFFramed=No
Sideheads=Left
ExtXrefPages=No
Quotes=Help

[WordSectionFiles]

[WordCntStyles]
paragraph=1

[MacroVariables]
; Put any macro definition sections before this section.

[Setup]
PluginVersion=b111l
WriteEquations=Yes
WriteAllGraphics=No
WordSuffix=.rtf
IDFileName=
UseExistingMIF=No
DeleteMIF=Yes
UseExistingDCL=No
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Re: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-02-25 Thread Robert Lauriston 
You might evaluate migrating to Flare, its Word export and import are
significantly better than FrameMaker's, and its FrameMaker import is
very good.

MadCap now claims that Flare supports round-tripping for use as an
add-on for FrameMaker. I don't know if that's an exaggeration or if it
still requires some manual cleanup in FM after import as it did in
7.1:

http://forums.madcapsoftware.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13473

In my last job I was unable to get RoboHelp's Word export to do what I
needed it to do, but if you've ordered TCS5 anyway, you might as well
give it a shot. But that won't improve import.

On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 6:20 AM, Harding, Dan  wrote:
> Good morning,
>
> We have used the same authoring process for eons: Authors/editors work in MS 
> Word, as well as preliminary indexing work. I then take the MS Word file, 
> import into FM (unstructured) and do the final print-ready formatting, making 
> things adhere to our publishing standards and tightening up consistency.
>
> As a process it work well... until it's time to revise the book for the next 
> edition.
>
> Our authors and editors will ONLY work in MS Word. PDF comments/revisions 
> will not work, as there frequently are extensive revisions including 
> insertion of new sections (multiple pages) of content, as well as shuffling 
> of content.
>
> When I export the final FM version back to MS Word for them to work on, the 
> conversion is VERY crude and frequently requires extensive work on the 
> post-conversion Word files for the editors to be able to work within the 
> files.
>
> Then of course there's the reformatting from scratch in FM when the revisions 
> are done (which actually is faster and more reliable than trying to reconcile 
> changes in the MS Word version with the existing FM version).
>
> Is there a better way to perform the round-trip process given the MS Word 
> requirement, and barring that, are there better ways/tools to get cleaner MS 
> Word files from FM than exporting to RTF?
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Re: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-02-25 Thread John Sgammato 
How do you go from FM to Word?
I find the Mif2Go RTF output is very good, especially if you set up your FM
template to minimize disruptions. Layout effects like sideheads and uneven
columns can get messy, but single columns with headers work out really
well, and x-ref links are preserved.


On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 9:20 AM, Harding, Dan  wrote:

> Good morning,
>
> We have used the same authoring process for eons: Authors/editors work in
> MS Word, as well as preliminary indexing work. I then take the MS Word
> file, import into FM (unstructured) and do the final print-ready
> formatting, making things adhere to our publishing standards and tightening
> up consistency.
>
> As a process it work well... until it's time to revise the book for the
> next edition.
>
> Our authors and editors will ONLY work in MS Word. PDF comments/revisions
> will not work, as there frequently are extensive revisions including
> insertion of new sections (multiple pages) of content, as well as shuffling
> of content.
>
> When I export the final FM version back to MS Word for them to work on,
> the conversion is VERY crude and frequently requires extensive work on the
> post-conversion Word files for the editors to be able to work within the
> files.
>
> Then of course there's the reformatting from scratch in FM when the
> revisions are done (which actually is faster and more reliable than trying
> to reconcile changes in the MS Word version with the existing FM version).
>
> Is there a better way to perform the round-trip process given the MS Word
> requirement, and barring that, are there better ways/tools to get cleaner
> MS Word files from FM than exporting to RTF?
>
> Would making the change from unstructured to structured FM on my part help
> in this regard?
>
> Environment:
>
> Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise
> Framemaker 10 (unstructured) [NOTE: TCS 5 is on order but I have not
> received it yet.]
> Microsoft Office 2010
>
> Thank you in advance.
>
> Dan Harding
> University of Illinois Tax School
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to framers as john.sgamm...@actifio.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com.
>
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>
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> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>



-- 

*John Sgammato, Documentation Architect*
*e* john.sgamm...@actifio.com  *c* 508.927.2083
*t* @actifiodocs 

333 Wyman Street, Waltham, MA 02451



  

*Radically simple copy data management *

*.*
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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-02-22 Thread Steve Rickaby 
At 09:40 -0500 22/2/14, Rick Quatro wrote:

>Mif2Go by Omsys is a much better way to get good Word output from
>FrameMaker. They will tell you that there is no good tool for round-tripping
>between Word and FrameMaker, but if you are doing it anyway, you might as
>well make the Frame to Word side as good as possible. I highly recommend
>Mif2Go.

Just to add to what Rick's said, there's a helpful section (6.1) in the Mif2Go 
manual, which you can download from the Omni Systems site, explaining just why 
Word doesn't play well with FrameMaker.



Just a thought, taking a more global view... FrameMaker 12 claims to be able to 
import PDFs with comments into the original FrameMaker source document, *even 
if it has changed*. I have no experience of how well it works (yet ;-), but you 
might want to review this new feature.

-- 
Steve
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RE: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

2014-02-22 Thread Rick Quatro 
Hi Dan,

Mif2Go by Omsys is a much better way to get good Word output from
FrameMaker. They will tell you that there is no good tool for round-tripping
between Word and FrameMaker, but if you are doing it anyway, you might as
well make the Frame to Word side as good as possible. I highly recommend
Mif2Go.

Rick

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-366-4017
r...@frameexpert.com



-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Harding, Dan
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:21 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Round-trip revisions via MS Word. Alternate methods?

Good morning,

We have used the same authoring process for eons: Authors/editors work in MS
Word, as well as preliminary indexing work. I then take the MS Word file,
import into FM (unstructured) and do the final print-ready formatting,
making things adhere to our publishing standards and tightening up
consistency.

As a process it work well... until it's time to revise the book for the next
edition.

Our authors and editors will ONLY work in MS Word. PDF comments/revisions
will not work, as there frequently are extensive revisions including
insertion of new sections (multiple pages) of content, as well as shuffling
of content.

When I export the final FM version back to MS Word for them to work on, the
conversion is VERY crude and frequently requires extensive work on the
post-conversion Word files for the editors to be able to work within the
files.

Then of course there's the reformatting from scratch in FM when the
revisions are done (which actually is faster and more reliable than trying
to reconcile changes in the MS Word version with the existing FM version).

Is there a better way to perform the round-trip process given the MS Word
requirement, and barring that, are there better ways/tools to get cleaner MS
Word files from FM than exporting to RTF?

Would making the change from unstructured to structured FM on my part help
in this regard?

Environment:

Windows 7 64-bit Enterprise
Framemaker 10 (unstructured) [NOTE: TCS 5 is on order but I have not
received it yet.] Microsoft Office 2010

Thank you in advance.

Dan Harding
University of Illinois Tax School

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