Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Anatoly Vorobey]

On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 08:02:28PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> 
>   Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was
> actually used in Russia?
> 
>   ISO 8859-5.

It's actually being used quite often now by users of MS Outlook 2000
(those of them not sophisticated enough to select their own outgoing
encoding).

>   And which is still the standard in Russian-language newsgroups,
> for russian Unix users and most of Russian-language web pages?

Cyrillic!=Russian.

>   koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep

This is untrue. cp1251 is used in almost all Russian web pages, and
koi8-r is the minority (for no good reason, of course, primarily because
too many people never learned to set the right charset in the outgoing
HTTP headers).

> "intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through
> characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb
> terminals -- and the last mentioned property is still saving a lot of
> trouble for Russians that use mail-to-pager systems. History is more 
> complex than some people think.

And with all its attractive properties, it's still missing the letter
"yat'" that I need. It's there in Unicode, of course (and in 8859-5).

-- 
Anatoly Vorobey,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton


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Re: How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()?

[Warner Losh]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Gary T. Corcoran" writes:
: I installed FreeBSD 4.0 and I'm trying to write the attach() routine
: for my device driver, to be compiled as a loadable module.  In 4.0
: the attach routine only gets passed a dev pointer, not a PCI configuration
: pointer.  My PCI device has up to 6 I/O ranges, and I need to get the
: base addresses for those ranges.
: 
: So how does one get multiple I/O base addresses from a dev pointer
: for a PCI device in FreeBSD 4.x ?

rid = 0x10;
res1 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);
rid = 0x14;
res2 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);
rid = 0x18;
res3 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);
rid = 0x1c;
res4 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);
rid = 0x20;
res5 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);
rid = 0x24;
res6 = bus_alloc_resource(dev, SYS_RES_MEMORY, &rid, 0, ~0, 1, RF_ACTIVE);

should do the trick.  Change SYS_RES_MEMORY to SYS_RES_IOPORT if it is 
I/O mapped rather than memory mapped.

In case it wasn't clear, the rid is the offset into the config space
where the BAR register that you want to use is.  Multiples of 4 only
need apply.

Warner


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Nikolai Saoukh]

On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 08:02:28PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:

>   Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was
> actually used in Russia?
> 
>   ISO 8859-5.
> 
>   And which is still the standard in Russian-language newsgroups,
> for russian Unix users and most of Russian-language web pages?
> 
>   koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep
> "intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through
> characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb
> terminals -- and the last mentioned property is still saving a lot of
> trouble for Russians that use mail-to-pager systems. History is more 
> complex than some people think.

Wrong, you are comparing apples and oranges again --
cyrillic (8859-5) encoding with russian (koi8-r) one.
Never say never -- if you do not know about 8859-5
usage is does not mean "not used by everyone".


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How to get multiple PCI I/O base addresses in attach()?

[Gary T. Corcoran]

I installed FreeBSD 4.0 and I'm trying to write the attach() routine
for my device driver, to be compiled as a loadable module.  In 4.0
the attach routine only gets passed a dev pointer, not a PCI configuration
pointer.  My PCI device has up to 6 I/O ranges, and I need to get the
base addresses for those ranges.

So how does one get multiple I/O base addresses from a dev pointer
for a PCI device in FreeBSD 4.x ?

Thanks,
Gary


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Alex Belits]

On Thu, 6 Apr 2000, Patryk Zadarnowski wrote:

> > without destabilizing "standards" by constant changes.
> 
> Can it? People have been begging ISO to standarise 8 bit charsets for ages.
> If you tried to exchange information in polish in the pre-8859 days, you'd
> know why (about five radically different charsets in common use) Besides, if
> the alphabet for information interchange doesn't deserve standarising, I don't
> know what does.

  Can you guess, which one of of multiple cyrillic charsets never was
actually used in Russia?

  ISO 8859-5.

  And which is still the standard in Russian-language newsgroups,
for russian Unix users and most of Russian-language web pages?

  koi8-r, one of the oldest cyrillic charsets, primarily designed to keep
"intuitive" mapping to ASCII, to remain usable after passing through
characters-mangling old software and to be readable on 7-bit dumb
terminals -- and the last mentioned property is still saving a lot of
trouble for Russians that use mail-to-pager systems. History is more 
complex than some people think.

-- 
Alex

--
 Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
  -- Anonymous Coward



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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Warner Losh]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Anatoly Vorobey writes:
: a) VGA actually supports 512-characters fonts; this is not currently
: supported by FreeBSD, but can be.

Not supported by sc, but I believe the pcvt does support it.

Warner


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Patryk Zadarnowski]

> On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:
> 
> > >  Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great
> > >extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private
> > >use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset?
> > 
> > Absurd! The private use area is for application specific usage.
> > Suppose you want to design a database of cleaning supplies. You create
> > a font for the use with your application, which will draw soap, mop,
> > towel, and things like that. These are not in Unicode, and your odds
> > of convincing the Consortium to include them are slim. So, your
> > application will assign points within the private use are to soap,
> > mop, towel, etc.
> 
>   This is what it was intended for, however this is not how it is used. I
> understand why Unicode Consortium is unlikely to include Klingon alphabet
> into "blessed" by them charset, however the use of private area for
> Klingon is hardly application-specific. When instead of fictional (even
> though relatively well-known) charset the question is about the
> representation of "obscure" or even hypothetic details of some real-world
> charset, things become much more hairy. Labeling of charsets and languages
> in multiple-charsets environment (even if in the case of Klingon the
> "charset" is Unicode with something added in the private area) can
> eliminate ambigiuty without involving ISO, Unicode consortium, etc. and
> without destabilizing "standards" by constant changes.

Can it? People have been begging ISO to standarise 8 bit charsets for ages.
If you tried to exchange information in polish in the pre-8859 days, you'd
know why (about five radically different charsets in common use) Besides, if
the alphabet for information interchange doesn't deserve standarising, I don't
know what does.

Pat.

--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Patryk ZadarnowskiUniversity of New South Wales
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   School of Computer Science and Engineering
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Alex Belits]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:

> >  Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great
> >extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private
> >use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset?
> 
> Absurd! The private use area is for application specific usage.
> Suppose you want to design a database of cleaning supplies. You create
> a font for the use with your application, which will draw soap, mop,
> towel, and things like that. These are not in Unicode, and your odds
> of convincing the Consortium to include them are slim. So, your
> application will assign points within the private use are to soap,
> mop, towel, etc.

  This is what it was intended for, however this is not how it is used. I
understand why Unicode Consortium is unlikely to include Klingon alphabet
into "blessed" by them charset, however the use of private area for
Klingon is hardly application-specific. When instead of fictional (even
though relatively well-known) charset the question is about the
representation of "obscure" or even hypothetic details of some real-world
charset, things become much more hairy. Labeling of charsets and languages
in multiple-charsets environment (even if in the case of Klingon the
"charset" is Unicode with something added in the private area) can
eliminate ambigiuty without involving ISO, Unicode consortium, etc. and
without destabilizing "standards" by constant changes.

> You are fighting wind mills, my friend.

  [ witty comment about Klingons and windmills is left as an exercise to
the reader ;-) ]

-- 
Alex

--
 Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
  -- Anonymous Coward



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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Alex Belits]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:51:29PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> >  I think, I have heard statements like this way too much in my life --
> >"Communism is the bright future of the humankind -- this goal hasn't been
> >achieved yet, but Communist Party is..." Sorry, but I see too many
> >similarities.
> 
> Give me a break! I grew up in a Communist country. A remark like that
> is a slap in my face. Especially from someone who, obviously, has
> personally experienced Communism. I could see a Montana Freeman making
> a comparison like that, but not a Russian emigré.

  I refer only to my idea of the possible validity of the statement, I
have no intention to actually compare Unicode Consortium and Communist
Party.

> To compare Unicode to the suffering imparted by the Communists on almost
> two thirds of the world is ridiculous in the least, and outright
> offensive.

  This is not a place to discuss my feelings toward political doctrines,
however I don't see why hatred toward communists is supposed to be
somehow "sacred". I always considered that people have unlienable right to
poke fun at all kinds of troubles that they faced, and I think that with
23 years spent in Russia I qualify for that pretty well.

-- 
Alex

--
 Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
  -- Anonymous Coward



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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[G. Adam Stanislav]

On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:51:29PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
>  I think, I have heard statements like this way too much in my life --
>"Communism is the bright future of the humankind -- this goal hasn't been
>achieved yet, but Communist Party is..." Sorry, but I see too many
>similarities.

Give me a break! I grew up in a Communist country. A remark like that
is a slap in my face. Especially from someone who, obviously, has
personally experienced Communism. I could see a Montana Freeman making
a comparison like that, but not a Russian emigré.

To compare Unicode to the suffering imparted by the Communists on almost
two thirds of the world is ridiculous in the least, and outright
offensive.

Adam

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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[G. Adam Stanislav]

On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 03:30:22PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
>  Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great
>extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private
>use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset?

Absurd! The private use area is for application specific usage.
Suppose you want to design a database of cleaning supplies. You create
a font for the use with your application, which will draw soap, mop,
towel, and things like that. These are not in Unicode, and your odds
of convincing the Consortium to include them are slim. So, your
application will assign points within the private use are to soap,
mop, towel, etc.

You are fighting wind mills, my friend.

Cheers,
Adam

-- 
Don't send me spam, I'm a vegetarian


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Alex Belits]

On 5 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> Unicode certainly *is* sufficient as a character repertoire since
> it aims to include all the scripts in the world. This goal hasn't
> been achieved yet, but for some time now Unicode has been expanding
> into areas where *no* previous character sets have existed at all.

  I think, I have heard statements like this way too much in my life --
"Communism is the bright future of the humankind -- this goal hasn't been
achieved yet, but Communist Party is..." Sorry, but I see too many
similarities.

-- 
Alex

--
 Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
  -- Anonymous Coward



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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Alex Belits]

On 5 Apr 2000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> > > the most inclusive one in existence.
> > 
> >   It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it
> > is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related
> > problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure
> 
> Who says so? Certainly not the Unicode enthusiasts I have met.
> You are arguing against a strawman.

  I would be happy if it was a nonexistent point of view, however it
happens to be exactly what I hear from people who are trying 
to "standardize on UTF-8" FTP, HTML, NNTP and even DNS. Their
arguments? "who needs any other charsets or languages? just force everyone
to replace them with UTF-8, put UTF-8 handling into all software and all
languages-related problems will be solved". One of shining examples of
this is someone Martin Duerst, however he is not alone there.

[skipped]

> 
> A claim that would be obviously absurd.
> However, I do consider Unicode a sensible part of any new
> implementation. ISO 2022 (and what other dinosaurs that may be
> lurking in murky shadows) is a legacy solution that should die off.

  iso 2022 is a dinosaur -- it's inflexible. However labeling of charsets
and languages in general is definitely necessary for any decent
languages-handling functionality. Even if the charset is Unicode,
languages still have to be labeled somewhere to make any use of the text
in processing, and if labeling is unavoidable, multiple-charsets model is
in no way inferior to Unicode, plus it allows easy addition of charsets
and variants of them without Unicode consortium approval as long as
something handles the charset and language names.

-- 
Alex

--
 Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
  -- Anonymous Coward



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Re: 4.0-STABLE?

[Sergey Babkin]

"Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote:

> The cvsupit package is now updated to deal with the current branch
> state of affairs, the cvsup 16.1 upgrade AND it's linked-to properly
> so that simply:

By the way, a stupid question: I've received a 4-CDROM
package today, saying 4.0-March 2000. The line on the
shipping list says that it's -current. But is not
-current 5.0 now, and 4 CDROMs ? So I wonder, is it 
really -current or -stable ?

-SB


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Alex Belits]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Jason wrote:

> > i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being
> > sufficient,
> 
> What do you mean by "Linguists don't see Unicode as being sufficient"?
> Where I work, we have a gaggle of linguists and are currenly posting our
> software to UNICODE (UCS-2 encoded).  Actually, of all people, the "linguists"
> seems to like it the most (besides some wanting UCS-4).

  Lack of extensibility and variants. Don't they just love the great
extensibility means aka non-standardized and non-standardizable "private
use area" that defeats the whole idea of having a standard charset?

-- 
Alex

--
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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Jason]

>   People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine
> i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being
> sufficient,

What do you mean by "Linguists don't see Unicode as being sufficient"?
Where I work, we have a gaggle of linguists and are currenly posting our
software to UNICODE (UCS-2 encoded).  Actually, of all people, the "linguists"
seems to like it the most (besides some wanting UCS-4).

-jason



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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[G. Adam Stanislav]

On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:30:38PM -0400, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
>I am willing to do this work ( a)-d) ), have a good understanding of
>the issues involved, etc.

Yes, you clearly do. :)

> However I am neither a committer nor a 
>member of -core. If -core thinks this whole thing is a Bad Idea,
>my changes won't get reviewed and/or committed, and I don't want to do
>a lot of work to find out later it won't get into FreeBSD. This
>is why I've asked for an endorsement from the People Who Decide
>Things: not a guarantee, of course, that whatever I do will be
>welcomed, but rather an acknowledgement that this is a Worthy Issue
>and if my diffs are working well and answer the needed criteria,
>they will be reviewed and committed.

I'd say: Go for it. The core never decides on ideas, as far as I know.
They only decide on code after it is written. You may want to talk to
Soren since he has done most of the console work. It is better if
your effort is coordinated with his.

Cheers,
Adam

-- 
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-- Seen on a dining room wall...


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[G. Adam Stanislav]

On Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 05:02:04PM -0400, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
>a) VGA actually supports 512-characters fonts; this is not currently
>supported by FreeBSD, but can be.
>
>b) FreeBSD supports "raster modes", which are graphics VGA modes
>used as if they were text modes

Good points. Somehow I was not thinking about that.

Cheers,
Adam

-- 
Apply standard disk lamer


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Christian Weisgerber]

Alex Belits <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine
> i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being
> sufficient,

Linguists are interested in languages, not in computer character
set issues. They are just users who expect their *applications* to
work. They don't know and don't want to know about arcane things
such as the current mess of 8-bit character sets and MIME. (Well,
not being a linguist myself that's certainly the impression I get
from sci.lang.)

Unicode certainly *is* sufficient as a character repertoire since
it aims to include all the scripts in the world. This goal hasn't
been achieved yet, but for some time now Unicode has been expanding
into areas where *no* previous character sets have existed at all.

> and everyone else uses local encodings/charsets.

I'm not a linguist and I want Unicode. By yesterday.

> However I oppose:
> 
> 1. The point of view that Unicode is the only possible or the best
> possible way to handle multilingual documents.
> 
> 2. The point of view that support of Unicode should be made at the expense
> of compatibility with everything else, or by the introduction of some
> unsafe guesswork such as application of UTF-8 validity check to determine 
> if the chunk of data is in UTF-8 or not.

Wonderful.
You are pretty much in agreement with Unicode supporters all over
the world.

You are arguing against a non-existent opponent. It's boring.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber  [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Christian Weisgerber]

Alex Belits <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Not so. Unicode is a character map. One of many. It just happens to be
> > the most inclusive one in existence.
> 
>   It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it
> is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related
> problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure

Who says so? Certainly not the Unicode enthusiasts I have met.
You are arguing against a strawman.

Unicode takes care of character repertoire, code points, and (with
UTF-*) encoding. In no way does it touch on language labeling.

> and as the necessary prerequisite for any multilingual text processing.

A claim that would be obviously absurd.
However, I do consider Unicode a sensible part of any new
implementation. ISO 2022 (and what other dinosaurs that may be
lurking in murky shadows) is a legacy solution that should die off.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber  [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Christian Weisgerber]

G. Adam Stanislav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support on the
> >console is a Good Thing(TM).
> 
> I don't see how it would be even possible, due to hardware limitations.
> The console can only support an 8-bit font (I mean 8-bit encoding).

Actually, if you can spare an attribute bit you can handle 512
characters in text mode on a plain VGA card. pcvt(4) uses this to
keep all of CP437, ISO Latin 1, various DEC character sets, and a
range of definable characters available.

> I see the main way of supporting Unicode in providing libraries that
> programs can use to convert between Unicode and local display.

... and to handle UTF-8. Yes.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber  [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Anatoly Vorobey]

You, Marco van de Voort, were spotted writing this on Wed, Apr 05, 2000 at 02:10:35PM 
+0100:
> 
> 
> I'm sorry that I maybe missed part of the thread, but what parts that should get 
> UNICODE support are we thinking of?

I have suggested adding Unicode support in the keyboard driver and the
vga driver (more precisely, vga and syscons). As a result of such changes:

a) keymap files would map keycodes to the desired Unicode values rather
than 8-bit values depending on a particular encoding, which should
greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/keymaps and let applications
that desire so obtain Unicode input directly;

b) font files would map Unicode chars, rather than encoding-dependent
chars, to glyphs. That would greatly simplify /usr/share/syscons/fonts,
get rid of a huge amount of redundant information there, and allow
creation of unified font files describing many languages at once.

c) vga code would be changed to allow 512-characters hardware fonts in
text modes, which will suffice to hold several languages at once. Moreover,
in raster modes (which are pseudo-text modes -- graphic modes with
fast text rendering) any amount of Unicode glyphs could be displayed
at once. 

d) userland applications wouldn't feel a thing, and will continue
to receive pure 8-bit stream translated from/to Unicode by syscons by
way of a user-supplied encoding table. UTF-8 may play a role of
one such particular table, which will in future allow easy way
to modify userland applications to support UTF-8 if desired.

I am willing to do this work ( a)-d) ), have a good understanding of
the issues involved, etc. However I am neither a committer nor a 
member of -core. If -core thinks this whole thing is a Bad Idea,
my changes won't get reviewed and/or committed, and I don't want to do
a lot of work to find out later it won't get into FreeBSD. This
is why I've asked for an endorsement from the People Who Decide
Things: not a guarantee, of course, that whatever I do will be
welcomed, but rather an acknowledgement that this is a Worthy Issue
and if my diffs are working well and answer the needed criteria,
they will be reviewed and committed.

-- 
Anatoly Vorobey,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Anatoly Vorobey]

You, G. Adam Stanislav, were spotted writing this on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:59:55PM 
-0500:
> On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:08:56PM +0300, Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
> >Of course, it still remains to be seen if having Unicode support on the
> >console is a Good Thing(TM).
> 
> I don't see how it would be even possible, due to hardware limitations.
> The console can only support an 8-bit font (I mean 8-bit encoding). If
> you change it for one character, you change it for everything on the
> console. And this was designed by *International* Business Machines! :)

a) VGA actually supports 512-characters fonts; this is not currently
supported by FreeBSD, but can be.

b) FreeBSD supports "raster modes", which are graphics VGA modes
used as if they were text modes -- the characters gets drawn very
quickly by the VGA renderer code using their representation in
the font file (it is my understanding, though I might be wrong,
that Linux doesn't support these). In these modes, you could draw
arbitrarily many different glyphs at the same time, once Unicode support
is added.

-- 
Anatoly Vorobey,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://pobox.com/~mellon/
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Re: 4.0-STABLE?

[Richard Wackerbarth]

On Wed, 05 Apr 2000, Daniel Sobral wrote:

> > But that IS the way CVS works. There is NO "STABLE" tag. The tag is
> > "RELENG_4".
> >
> > If you want CVS to reflect the way you describe the system, you would
> > have to change the repository to match your description. I advocate that
> > we change the description to match the repository.
>
> Ah, you are asking for we dropping "stable" completely, and simple refer
> to the (stable) branches as RELENG_3, RELENG_4, etc? Sorry, I had
> misunderstood you.

Naturally, I would not use the "RELENG_" but refer to them as FreeBSD-3 
or some other isomorphic usr-friendly label.

I would get rid of "-STABLE" part of elsewhere because it is redundant.

However, I would not discard "STABLE" entirely. I would just make an
alias or symbolic link to the most recent release that deserves that 
"blessing".

BTW, I think it was a mistake to attach the "blessing" so soon after the
branch was created. But that is another discussion.


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Garance A Drosihn]

At 10:10 AM -0700 4/5/00, Alex Belits wrote:
>On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
>
> > > that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient,
> > > however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of
> > > typesetting.
> >
> > But we're *not* talking about typesetting -- rather about multilingual
> > text handling. TeX, indeed, does typesetting and thus solves the wrong
> > problem.
>
>  It solves exactly the same problem -- displaying information. Unicode
>does NOTHING to support any other functionality that is required for true
>multilingual text processing. You can't even do a hyphenation of unicode
>text -- you will have to guess, which language rules should apply.

I think what you need to do is present the alternative to unicode
that you want people to use.  Not just complaints about unicode,
although I do understand some of the points you're raising, but an
actual implementation or something considerably more concrete than
just dissing unicode or some of the more fanatical backers of unicode.

> > In "real life" someone who needs to handle text with Russian
> > and French in it -- type it, send it, read it, study it, etc. -- not
> > *typeset* it -- won't use TeX for it, but will rather walk over to the
> > Windows machine and fire up Word. This is the solution that's used in
> > "real life" right now
>
>  This only happens because those people use Word, and Word happens to use
>Unicode. Well, Word uses a lot of things that I consider to be stupid and
>poorly designed -- its popularity is based definitely not on technical
>merit
>
> > -- and incidentally, one of the reasons it's
> > become so annoyingly common to email Word files as some kind of
> > universal text standard.
>
>  Word is not a standard, it's a format forced on a lot of people by some
>pretty shady practice of certain company that in few recent days was
>mentioned often enough to make it pointless to be described again.

All of which is utterly irrelevant to reality.  How we (the computer
industry) are in the mess we are in belongs in some philosophy mailing
list.  The reality is that real-world users ARE IN FACT using MS-Word
because that lets them do something they want to do.  If we do not
let them do those same things, then we can't very well complain that
they stick to MS-Word while we sit in some ivory tower and bitch and
moan about "how good it should be".  Either we MAKE IT as good as it
should be, or we at least shut up and provide people SOME way to do
what they want to do.

I think the recent comments have clarified things a bit, in that it
sounds like you're not complaining about unicode changes per se.  You
just seem to want to make sure that any unicode changes also leave
the door open to more extensive changes which you feel are needed
before the job is really done right.  That much more understandable
to me.  On the other hand, it still seems to me that people interested
in unicode changes for FreeBSD should just go ahead and start working
on them, and hope that anyone with a wider-scope will provide input
to those changes.

However, I do not think the unicode changes should wait until after
some other super-wonderful solution is ironed out.  I emphatically
deny the view that supporting unicode now will dictate anything about
what we do in the future, any more than the past should dictate that
we never get unicode support working.

I don't see any point in further debate on whether there should be
unicode support, I think anyone interested in doing ANY work should
be encouraged to do so, and anyone else interested in the issues can
contribute their ideas on implementation issues.  Note that I am not
disagreeing with your views on what is necessary for a long-term
solution, I just think that working on a mid-term solution is better
than doing nothing at all in the area.


---
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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Eugene M. Kim]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote:

| On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:
| 
| > > that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient,
| > > however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of
| > > typesetting.
| > 
| > But we're *not* talking about typesetting -- rather about multilingual 
| > text handling. TeX, indeed, does typesetting and thus solves the wrong 
| > problem.
| 
|   It solves exactly the same problem -- displaying information. Unicode
| does NOTHING to support any other functionality that is required for true
| multilingual text processing. You can't even do a hyphenation of unicode
| text -- you will have to guess, which language rules should apply.

Yet again, Unicode is _not_ a multilingual solution; it's rather an aid.  
There are literally tons of problems like case folding, hyphenation (as
you mentioned), Chinese simplified letter support, directionality,
ligature formation and so on, which must be flattened out by a true
multilingual solution.  The current Unicode try to address these
problems but it doesn't claim it solves or will solve them.  (Read the
Unicode spec carefully, please, and you will see what I mean.)

And this fact is actually a consensus which can be seen on any serious
i18n discussion group.

| 
| > In "real life" someone who needs to handle text with Russian 
| > and French in it -- type it, send it, read it, study it, etc. -- not 
| > *typeset* it -- won't use TeX for it, but will rather walk over to the 
| > Windows machine and fire up Word. This is the solution that's used in 
| > "real life" right now
| 
|   This only happens because those people use Word, and Word happens to use
| Unicode. Well, Word uses a lot of things that I consider to be stupid and
| poorly designed -- its popularity is based definitely not on technical
| merit.

We are speaking about the `real world' here -- the world as it is now.  
In other words, it's an installation base that we must consider in any
effort of envisioning a new i18n scheme.

| 
| > -- and incidentally, one of the reasons it's 
| > become so annoyingly common to email Word files as some kind of 
| > universal text standard.
| 
|   Word is not a standard, it's a format forced on a lot of people by some 
| pretty shady practice of certain company that in few recent days was
| mentioned often enough to make it pointless to be described again.
| 
| > I don't like this, but currently the Unix 
| > world doesn't have a good alternative to offer. UTF-8 changes that,
| > and I think that's a wonderful thing.
| 
|   UTF-8 provides a way to display a lot of characters -- that's all.

And that's exactly one of the things that we want as a part of
multilingual solution.

| And this is nowhere close to being enough -- if we want to be
| superior to pretty-pictures-oriented Windows software, we need to
| provide advantages over it, not absorb its weaknesses.  We need to
| provide multilingual functionality, not just multilingual display --
| if that will be done, half-assed languages support in Windows/Word
| will look like a sad joke.

Unicode doesn't necessarily mean a bad multilingual functionality.  
What makes a good m17n scheme is _how we use_ tools like Unicode (as a
multilingual display tool).  True, there's a lot of inappropriate m17n
approaches using Unicode (most of which directly project Unicode to be
the m17n scheme, as you pointed out), but so far I didn't see any factor
in Unicode itself that it will make it hard to envision a good m17n
scheme.

| 
| > It's fine for you to talk about
| > what would happen if MINE were to evolve into a general-purpose text-marking
| > standard powerful enough to handle a Czech word inside a French sentence,
| > but that didn't happen, which means that neither you nor anyone else took
| > it there. Frankly, I don't think MIME would have been up for the task 
| > anyway, but that's a moot point because it just didn't happen.
| 
|   What do you mean, "didn't happen"? Who is here writing software but we
| ourselves? I am trying to explain why the development in that area should
| be done despite stupid decisions made by IETF precisely because I expect
| it to be done as the result -- by myself or by others. I will be happy to
| start this work, however without others' input I am afraid that it will
| become yet another thing based on idiosyncrasy rather than on good design
| ideas -- sad example of Java makes me feel rather uneasy about starting a
| thing that no one seems to understand or care about.

If you don't feel right about the current approach by IETF, and you've
got enough confidence how it should be, then I strongly suggest you
start the work right away.  I think there are tons of programmers and
other experts, my being one of course, who will gladly give some input
towards this type of effort.  It's more of a matter of where to look for
those; for example, there are couple of m17n/i18n WGs in IETF where a
lot of people are 

Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Alex Belits]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Anatoly Vorobey wrote:

> > that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient,
> > however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of
> > typesetting.
> 
> But we're *not* talking about typesetting -- rather about multilingual 
> text handling. TeX, indeed, does typesetting and thus solves the wrong 
> problem.

  It solves exactly the same problem -- displaying information. Unicode
does NOTHING to support any other functionality that is required for true
multilingual text processing. You can't even do a hyphenation of unicode
text -- you will have to guess, which language rules should apply.

> In "real life" someone who needs to handle text with Russian 
> and French in it -- type it, send it, read it, study it, etc. -- not 
> *typeset* it -- won't use TeX for it, but will rather walk over to the 
> Windows machine and fire up Word. This is the solution that's used in 
> "real life" right now

  This only happens because those people use Word, and Word happens to use
Unicode. Well, Word uses a lot of things that I consider to be stupid and
poorly designed -- its popularity is based definitely not on technical
merit.

> -- and incidentally, one of the reasons it's 
> become so annoyingly common to email Word files as some kind of 
> universal text standard.

  Word is not a standard, it's a format forced on a lot of people by some 
pretty shady practice of certain company that in few recent days was
mentioned often enough to make it pointless to be described again.

> I don't like this, but currently the Unix 
> world doesn't have a good alternative to offer. UTF-8 changes that,
> and I think that's a wonderful thing.

  UTF-8 provides a way to display a lot of characters -- that's all. And
this is nowhere close to being enough -- if we want to be superior to
pretty-pictures-oriented Windows software, we need to provide advantages
over it, not absorb its weaknesses. We need to provide multilingual
functionality, not just multilingual display -- if that will be done,
half-assed languages support in Windows/Word will look like a sad joke.

> It's fine for you to talk about
> what would happen if MINE were to evolve into a general-purpose text-marking
> standard powerful enough to handle a Czech word inside a French sentence,
> but that didn't happen, which means that neither you nor anyone else took
> it there. Frankly, I don't think MIME would have been up for the task 
> anyway, but that's a moot point because it just didn't happen.

  What do you mean, "didn't happen"? Who is here writing software but we
ourselves? I am trying to explain why the development in that area should
be done despite stupid decisions made by IETF precisely because I expect
it to be done as the result -- by myself or by others. I will be happy to
start this work, however without others' input I am afraid that it will
become yet another thing based on idiosyncrasy rather than on good design
ideas -- sad example of Java makes me feel rather uneasy about starting a
thing that no one seems to understand or care about.

-- 
Alex

--
 Excellent.. now give users the option to cut your hair you hippie!
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Re: fork test

[Michael Bacarella]

> > FreeBSD spawned many more processes than Linux before it started being
> > unable to fork and was thus running many more live copies of the program?
> > You haven't really given/collected enough information to decide.
> 
> Linux 2.2.x still supports only 1024 processes I believe. Rumour goes that
> 2.4 supports 16384 processes, so poster should try a 2.3.99pre kernel.

Vanilla Linux 2.2.x supports 512 processes, defined by NR_TASKS. 4090
is a hardware limit that can't be passed in 2.2.x

Linux 2.4.x will support an unlimited number of processes up to the point
of 256^sizeof(pid_t). Most people will probably run out of RAM before they
hit this limit.

Poster should screw benchmarks out of fear of holy war. :)

-MB



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Question.

[p_a_r]

Hello i'm writing an article about open source and i need some 
feedback about FreeBSD vs Linux. So can you hackers help me whita 
that. Whats so good in FreeBSD and whats bad in Linux...

Joe Fisher

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Re: fork test

[Marco van de Voort]

> > Well, after very short time, both boxes responded to console switchings
> > and things like that, but trying to run something like "ps", "w",
> > "uptime" put machine quite on hold (about 2 minutes). The thing is that
> > Linux finished runnig commands about 3 times faster than FreeBSD.  What
> > the heck does that suppose to mean?!  I thought FreeBSD whould kick linux
> > butt?
> 
> FreeBSD spawned many more processes than Linux before it started being
> unable to fork and was thus running many more live copies of the program?
> You haven't really given/collected enough information to decide.

Linux 2.2.x still supports only 1024 processes I believe. Rumour goes that
2.4 supports 16384 processes, so poster should try a 2.3.99pre kernel.

P.s. this is one of the weirdest benchmarks I have ever seen :-)
Marco van de Voort ([EMAIL PROTECTED])




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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Marco van de Voort]

I'm sorry that I maybe missed part of the thread, but what parts that should get 
UNICODE support are we thinking of?
Marco van de Voort ([EMAIL PROTECTED])




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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Anatoly Vorobey]

You, Alex Belits, were spotted writing this on Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 05:34:55PM -0700:
> On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote:
> 
> > > You mean, MIME multipart documents are better than Unicode if I, for instance, 
> > > want to handle Tolstoy's "War and Peace" with French quotes in the middle of 
> > > Russian sentences? 
> > > 
> > > I don't think so.
> > 
> >   This is what multipart format exists for -- to combine documents or 
> > sections in the document with possibly different metadata in the
> > headers. The idea of "mail attachment" appeared later.
> 
>   I have to add that I agree that the way, MIME multipart is handled is
> primitive and inconvenient for such applications, however this is not the
> result of any flaw in its design, only of the lack of progress after
> "everything should adopt Unicode" doctrine was declared. 

> One may argue
> that the way that TeX handles such a text is even more inconvenient,
> however even now it's most likely that TeX would be used for this kind of
> typesetting.

But we're *not* talking about typesetting -- rather about multilingual 
text handling. TeX, indeed, does typesetting and thus solves the wrong 
problem. In "real life" someone who needs to handle text with Russian 
and French in it -- type it, send it, read it, study it, etc. -- not 
*typeset* it -- won't use TeX for it, but will rather walk over to the 
Windows machine and fire up Word. This is the solution that's used in 
"real life" right now -- and incidentally, one of the reasons it's 
become so annoyingly common to email Word files as some kind of 
universal text standard. I don't like this, but currently the Unix 
world doesn't have a good alternative to offer. UTF-8 changes that,
and I think that's a wonderful thing. It's fine for you to talk about
what would happen if MINE were to evolve into a general-purpose text-marking
standard powerful enough to handle a Czech word inside a French sentence,
but that didn't happen, which means that neither you nor anyone else took
it there. Frankly, I don't think MIME would have been up for the task 
anyway, but that's a moot point because it just didn't happen.


-- 
Anatoly Vorobey,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://pobox.com/~mellon/
"Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly" - G.K.Chesterton


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Christian Weisgerber]

I wrote:

> I also think the creating of a freebsd-i18n list is long overdue.
> I18N issues are largely lost among the traffic on -hackers and
> -questions, and it has become something of a specialty area

I just got a note from our dear postmaster that freebsd-i18n will
be created within the next couple of days.

-- 
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Re: 4.0-STABLE?

[Daniel C. Sobral]

Richard Wackerbarth wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 05 Apr 2000, Daniel C. Sobral wrote:
> > Richard Wackerbarth wrote:
> > > In the case of FreeBSD, when you change the release status ...
> > Feel free to change CVS to work that way and then submit patches.
> 
> But that IS the way CVS works. There is NO "STABLE" tag. The tag is
> "RELENG_4".
> 
> If you want CVS to reflect the way you describe the system, you would have to
> change the repository to match your description. I advocate that we change
> the description to match the repository.

Ah, you are asking for we dropping "stable" completely, and simple refer
to the (stable) branches as RELENG_3, RELENG_4, etc? Sorry, I had
misunderstood you.

-- 
Daniel C. Sobral(8-DCS)
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Alex Belits]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Taavi Talvik wrote:

> > the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we
> > know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?".
> 
> Multilingual tools market and small? Get real - just China and India
> together are >2 billion possible users.

  They don't use "true multilingual" software -- they have their own
charsets and encodings, and are quite content with them, not having to
care about others' charsets. Contrary to popular belief, Chinese and
Japanese are not waiting for benevolent American programmers to provide
them with "multilingual" software -- they just use local charsets in
existing one, sometimes having to modify it (in rather ad-hoc manner) to
support multibyte where necessary.

  It can be called shortsightedness or isolationism, but this is how
things are -- market for true multilingual software is in its infancy.
Poorly designed solutions for multilingual documents handling are
considered to be acceptable because people who are "targeted" by them
neither use them nor really care about multilingual documents, and people
who actually use those things have very limited applications.

-- 
Alex

--
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Re: chmod (gnu version) -c switch

[Kris Kennaway]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Christoph Kukulies wrote:

> While adapting a script that was originally written for Linux
> I came across an option -c --changes to chmod which verbosely
> lists the files whose permissions are actually changed by chmod.
> 
> Is there a way to have this under FreeBSD also? Like another set of
> these elementary utilities one can switch over temporarily? 

You mean like chmod -v? Of course, neither -c nor -v are portable so care
should be taken in their use.

> Do /compat/linux/bin programs work?

Yes, but there's no need.

> Would changing the path towards
> picking these binaries first be a solution in that case?

I don't recommend that.

Kris


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Re: fork test

[Kris Kennaway]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Alexey N. Dokuchaev wrote:

> Well, after very short time, both boxes responded to console switchings
> and things like that, but trying to run something like "ps", "w",
> "uptime" put machine quite on hold (about 2 minutes). The thing is that
> Linux finished runnig commands about 3 times faster than FreeBSD.  What
> the heck does that suppose to mean?!  I thought FreeBSD whould kick linux
> butt?

FreeBSD spawned many more processes than Linux before it started being
unable to fork and was thus running many more live copies of the program?
You haven't really given/collected enough information to decide.

Kris


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Taavi Talvik]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Alex Belits wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, Garance A Drosihn wrote:
> 
> > I don't understand what possible benefit there is in having *NO*
> > options to deal with all the language-characters in the world. Even
> > if unicode isn't perfect, it is a damn sight better than nothing.
>   The existing "market" of multilingual application is so small, and it's
> based on so simplistic requirements (to be able to display and print
> characters, and make multilingual "web pages"), that even solution so much
> flawed as standardization on Unicode can survive. Unicode is positioned as
> the _replacement_ for languages/charsets handling infrastructure -- "we
> know all the characters, so we can write all the words, right?".

Multilingual tools market and small? Get real - just China and India
together are >2 billion possible users.

best regards,
taavi
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Re: 4.0-STABLE?

[Nicole Harrington.]

On 05-Apr-00 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
>>  Yup.. however if you use..
>>  " pkg_add ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/CVSup/cvsupit.tgz "
>> 
>>  It does not use it... It just asks questions.. Problem is (with 4.0 now
>> being in the stable branch, that it now asks the wrong questions..
> 
> Mea culpa - I meant to fix this and got distracted away from it.
> Thanks for the reminder.
> 
> The cvsupit package is now updated to deal with the current branch
> state of affairs, the cvsup 16.1 upgrade AND it's linked-to properly
> so that simply:
> 
>   pkg_add -r cvsupit
> 
> Should now work just fine.
> 
> - Jordan


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YAY!!


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Alex Belits]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, G. Adam Stanislav wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 07:19:06PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:
> >  It is. However if you look at the current efforts of its "adoption", it
> >is not used as one. It's touted as the solution to all language-related
> >problems, as a replacement of language/charset labeling infrastructure
> >and as the necessary prerequisite for any multilingual text processing.
> 
> Abusus non tollit usum! Besides, you were criticizing the Unicode
> Consortium for this. The Consortium is certainly not representing
> Unicode as anything but a character map.

  Actually I criticize IETF, W3C, software companies and
"internationalization" standards that they produce. Unicode consortium has
its own share of troublemaking and arrogance, however replacement of
languages support with Unicode adoption became the IETF policy on
"internationalization".

> Alex, frankly, we are moving in circles here. Let's drop this thread.

  Huh?

-- 
Alex

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Re: 4.0-STABLE?

[Jordan K. Hubbard]

>  Yup.. however if you use..
>  " pkg_add ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/CVSup/cvsupit.tgz "
> 
>  It does not use it... It just asks questions.. Problem is (with 4.0 now
> being in the stable branch, that it now asks the wrong questions..

Mea culpa - I meant to fix this and got distracted away from it.
Thanks for the reminder.

The cvsupit package is now updated to deal with the current branch
state of affairs, the cvsup 16.1 upgrade AND it's linked-to properly
so that simply:

  pkg_add -r cvsupit

Should now work just fine.

- Jordan


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Re: Unicode on FreeBSD

[Nikolai Saoukh]

On Tue, Apr 04, 2000 at 12:08:39PM -0700, Alex Belits wrote:

>   People with genuine i18n needs such as linguists or people with genuine
> i18n needs such as non-English users? Linguists don't see Unicode as being
> sufficient, and everyone else uses local encodings/charsets. I agree that
> local encodings are very limiting in the form they exist now, however
> they, not Unicode, are standards used in real life. If some encapsulation
> format (not as limited as iso 2022 and not as restrictive as MIME
> multipart) will be created to support multiple
> charsets/encodings/languages in one document in labeled chunks, the same
> problem would be solved with minimal changes in existing software and
> minimal document conversion efforts. This solution will be far superior to
> Unicode, and even for "web" use it can be made compatible with charsets
> support in existing browsers.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Read carefully Unicode authors papers.
Unicode is just plain character enumaration, nothing else. All i18n and related
problems must be solved some other means above unicode level. It is pity
that unicode authors succumbered to pressure and started to add features
like directionality, 


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fork test

[Alexey N. Dokuchaev]

Hello!

Me and a friend of mine decided to compare FreeBSD and Linux using this
little program (compiled with "gcc -lm")

Two identical machines run FreeBSD 4.0-SNAP 2214 and Linux Mandrake
7.0 kernel 2.2.13

--
#include 

double counter=0,counter2=32;

double
test()
{
return atan2(counter++,counter2+=counter*50);
}

int
main()
{
int t;
while((t=fork())>0);
if(!t) while(1) test();
else perror("fork");
}
--
Well, after very short time, both boxes responded to console switchings
and things like that, but trying to run something like "ps", "w",
"uptime" put machine quite on hold (about 2 minutes). The thing is that
Linux finished runnig commands about 3 times faster than FreeBSD.  What
the heck does that suppose to mean?!  I thought FreeBSD whould kick linux
butt?

Please respond directly to me since I am not the member of this list.
Thanks.


Cheers,

  /* Alexey N. Dokuchaev, more commonly   |*/
  /* known as DAN Fe  | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   */
  /*  | ICQ UIN: 38934845  */
  /* Novosibirsk State University | http://inet.ssc.nsu.ru/~danfe/ */
  /* Scientific Study Center Computer Lab |*/

[Team Assembler] [Team BSD] [Team DooM] [Team Quake]

-BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.12
GCS d-@ s+: a--- C++(+++) UBL$ P++>$ L+
E-- W++ N++ o? K? w-- O- M V- PS PE Y+ PGP+
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--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

Microsoft:  Where do you want to go today?
Linux:  Where do you want to go tomorrow?
FreeBSD:Are you guys coming or what?

A good conspiracy is unprovable.  I mean, if you can prove it, it means they
screwed up somewhere along the line.

Jerry Fletcher from Conspiracy Theory



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chmod (gnu version) -c switch

[Christoph Kukulies]

While adapting a script that was originally written for Linux
I came across an option -c --changes to chmod which verbosely
lists the files whose permissions are actually changed by chmod.

Is there a way to have this under FreeBSD also? Like another set of
these elementary utilities one can switch over temporarily? 

Do /compat/linux/bin programs work ? Would changing the path towards
picking these binaries first be a solution in that case?

-- 
Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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