Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
At 11:18 PM -0800 3/24/01, Dan Feldman wrote: You're right, there's no need to pick fights. But I'm just pointing out that there's no reason FreeBSD should work particularly hard to create the appearance of an alliance with Apple, when all they've done is use the source of some kernel components and a number of utilities for a commercial product. After all, Microsoft is rumored to have done exactly the same thing at times and I have yet to see any press releases about a relationship with _them_. Actually, Apple has done a bit more than that. As I understand it, they have given back fixes and plan to keep doing so. They have also started talking about how robust the underlying "BSD Unix" system is (I wonder if they'll be hearing from The Open Group soon :-). They have also made the command line available to every user and supplied a Developer CD with the distribution; finally, they have released their Mach and I/O Kit work as (almost :-) open source. In short, I think they are starting to get it; with some positive feedback, they might actually become a good neighbor. In the meanwhile, why not ride their publicity wave a bit. After all, they didn't base their work on Linux! -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; phone: +1 650-873-7841 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
[in reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED], 25-03-2001] In the meanwhile, why not ride their publicity wave a bit. After all, they didn't base their work on Linux! Yeah, but we could argue if this was a choice based on technical details or if FreeBSD was just picked for the BSD license (although I do run around yelling "HA!" at the local Linux evangelists all the time ;)) -- Walter Hop [EMAIL PROTECTED] | +31 6 24290808 | PGP key ID: 0x84813998 "we are in a race between education and catastrophy" To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
At 3:52 PM +0200 3/25/01, Walter Hop wrote: Yeah, but we could argue if this was a choice based on technical details or if FreeBSD was just picked for the BSD license The NeXT work had been done on 4.3BSD, so both the code base and the implementors' background made the use of a BSDish platform a win. By moving to the Open Source versions of BSD and Mach, however, Apple got out of paying license fees. Given that they are selling the whole OS for $129, handing $50 of that to SCO (or Caldera or ???) wouldn't fly. Also, giving out the kernel source code allows external developers to write drivers and such far more easily. Although it is true that the Apple license is incompatible with the GPL, but compatible with the UC license, the fact that Apple has released the entire underpinnings of the OS makes this look like a fairly minor point. Bear in mind that Mac OS X includes GCC and such, so they still have to deal with _some_ GPL issues. These points aside, I would submit that Apple had looked fairly hard at Linux before choosing BSD. Specifically, they created and distributed MkLinux, a Mach-based version of Linux. In fact, there was a certain amount of yelling from the Linux camp when Apple chose BSD. BTW, it is my understanding that the final choice came down to BSD and Solaris (!). The choice between FreeBSD and NetBSD involves no legal issues, but does have some interesting technical twists. Apple initially said that they would "mix and match" pieces of assorted BSD distributions. I remember sending them a note which warned against doing this in a detailed way, as they didn't want to get caught up in a version-control nightmare. As it turned out, they decided to use the FreeBSD kernel and the NetBSD userland. This kept their version-control issues fairly simple, while giving them some technical benefits: * The NetBSD apps already worked on the PowerPC, so they didn't have to chase thousands of little architecture-specific issues. * For whatever reason, they liked the FreeBSD kernel. I don't know the exact reasons, but I'm sure there were some (otherwise, they would have gone with NetBSD for everything). -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; phone: +1 650-873-7841 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
At 10:19 PM -0800 3/24/01, Dan Feldman wrote: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - 1 Apr 2000 SEATTLE - The FreeBSD Project, Inc. officially welcomed today the introduction of Apple Computer's Mac OS X. The next-generation operating system uses the TCP/IP stack of an obsolete version of FreeBSD's flagship product, and is otherwise completely unrelated. :) - dan feldman student, garfield high school, seattle While this is a good attempt at humor, I think it is not fair to Apple nor is it worthwhile to anyone. Apple had some people who contribute to freebsd directly (ie, they have commit access). Apple donated some hardware to help encourage FreeBSD/PPC along. Apple buys ads at several of the BSD-specific web sites. Apple has mentioned their connection to BSD's in several press releases. In short, Apple has been doing a hell of a lot more for freebsd (and all the BSD's, for that matter) then this little april-fool's article. And we're supposed to greet that positive publicity with sarcasm? At 11:18 PM -0800 3/24/01, Dan Feldman wrote: You're right, there's no need to pick fights. But I'm just pointing out that there's no reason FreeBSD should work particularly hard to create the appearance of an alliance with Apple, when all they've done is use the source of some kernel components and a number of utilities for a commercial product. After all, Microsoft is rumored to have done exactly the same thing at times and I have yet to see any press releases about a relationship with _them_. You might want to think a bit more. Microsoft rarely admits that any of the BSD's even exist, whatever they may have done with some of the code. They do not donate anything to any BSD project. They do not sponsor BSD- related activities or web sites. At times they amuse themselves by spreading FUD about the BSD's, as they do with just about all open-source projects. If you were following the darwin mailing lists, you would know that Apple has plans to include more code from all the other BSD's, while still maintaining their own operating system. All of this is good for freebsd. Certainly I see no reason to rain on their parade. We CLAIM we want anyone to use our code for whatever they see fit, but when someone does that are we then going to give them a bunch of crap? Furthermore, the point of a press release isn't to help THEM, per se, it's to increase OUR visibility. Your suggested press release will increase our visibility in a very negative way. That is not the kind of visibility we will benefit from. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn= [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
On Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 08:36:30AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: Shouldn't the FreeBSD project issue a press release welcoming Apple's MacOS X ? Good idea, write one :-) Kris PGP signature
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
On Sat, 24 Mar 2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: On Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 08:36:30AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: Shouldn't the FreeBSD project issue a press release welcoming Apple's MacOS X ? Good idea, write one :-) To be a really effective press release, it should be joint released with Apple, or at the very least include quotes from Apple folk (and with their permission, mind you :-). They're probably pretty busy right now, but if you want to take it off-line, we can discuss that in detail. Robert N M Watson FreeBSD Core Team, TrustedBSD Project [EMAIL PROTECTED] NAI Labs, Safeport Network Services To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Robe rt Watson writes: On Sat, 24 Mar 2001, Kris Kennaway wrote: On Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 08:36:30AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: Shouldn't the FreeBSD project issue a press release welcoming Apple's MacOS X ? Good idea, write one :-) To be a really effective press release, it should be joint released with Apple, or at the very least include quotes from Apple folk (and with their permission, mind you :-). They're probably pretty busy right now, but if you want to take it off-line, we can discuss that in detail. I think you can assume that Jordan will veto me writing anything even remotely like a press-release for the project. I just thought it was a very good opportunity to beat the drum... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
I think you can assume that Jordan will veto me writing anything even remotely like a press-release for the project. I just thought it was a very good opportunity to beat the drum... I don't think you can assume any such thing - I say go for it! :) One of the things that makes the Linux community as powerful as it is is the fact that so many people are involved in the advocacy side of things. They even have people reading their mailing lists and posting distillations of all the high points to various web sites. We like to talk about doing those sorts of things, but they have the manpower (personpower?) to actually do them. I may be the PR guy, but that just means that the buck generally stops with me when nobody else can be found to attend some press or technical round-table event and I'm always keen to have the PR baton taken up by others, when possible, since I obviously can't be in all places at once. I believe phk himself has done multiple european events now which I couldn't possibly have done, even if I had wanted to fly 12 hours over the atlantic to do a 2 hour presentation. :) To cite a very recent example, just last thursday there was a "Wells Fargo Linux Day" event which I sent Murray off to since I couldn't make it. By all accounts, he did a great job at presenting the FreeBSD side of the story and I'm just glad I could facilitate someone being there at all. That's really the essence of the PR hat, not just sitting at a desk and "vetoing" PR one doesn't like. Heck, I don't think I've ever done that, the most I generally get involved in other people's PR is to make suggestions or edit the drafts they send me. If you guys go near the Apple thing, however, I can at least note that it would be courteous to work with Ernie P. [EMAIL PROTECTED] since he's the PR liason on that side and has worked with us in the past on things like this. Your message will be far more powerful with him on your side than without and he's also a pretty good wordsmith who can undoutedly help you polish the PR before sending it. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jordan Hubbard writes: I think you can assume that Jordan will veto me writing anything even remotely like a press-release for the project. I just thought it was a very good opportunity to beat the drum... I don't think you can assume any such thing - I say go for it! :) Well, how soon we forget history :-) Anyway, I barely have time to read my email this weekend so I'm out of the loop... One of the things that makes the Linux community as powerful as it is is the fact that so many people are involved in the advocacy side of things. Right, I fully agree. Chart me up in the "kernel architecture" category and lets find somebody else do the PR writing... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
I don't think you can assume any such thing - I say go for it! :) Well, how soon we forget history :-) I have no idea what this means. Right, I fully agree. Chart me up in the "kernel architecture" category and lets find somebody else do the PR writing... Right. Can we see a show of hands? :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
At 8:36 AM +0100 3/24/01, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: Shouldn't the FreeBSD project issue a press release welcoming Apple's MacOS X ? For what it's worth, the Red Herring article on MacOS 10, at: http://www.redherring.com/index.asp?layout=storychannel=2002doc_id=1380018338 Mentions that: The core of the new OS is based on an open-source version of Unix called FreeBSD. -- Garance Alistair Drosehn= [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Programmer or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rensselaer Polytechnic Instituteor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
As a part-time journalist, I receive a fair number of press releases. Most get tossed, unopened, in an effort to simplify my life. When I do open a release, it all too frequently contains news of some VP of paper clips who has gotten promoted to Senior VP of office supplies. I have considered writing a form letter to send back to these folks, but it has never seemed to be worth the trouble. In short, I'm not too keen on press releases. I do think some kinds of PR materials are worthwhile, however. For instance, if I am trying to write a column on a topic, it's great to have a clearly-written white paper that tells me more than I can put into the article (but enough that I don't say silly things in trying to boil the topic down for the reader). I tend to find these gems by means of a web search and may follow them up by contacting the author(s) and/or PR contacts that are listed therein. All of which leads me to believe that FreeBSD might benefit from a web-based collection of white papers and other press resources. I don't know who is going to write these, but pulling a few documents (or links to documents) together onto a page might be a good start. Another useful PR technique involves writing articles and getting them published. The press needs a continuous stream of articles to keep the ads from slamming together. If you have the ability to do an authoritative and readable article on a topic of interest, you'll have no problem getting it published! MacTech, for instance, likes to get technical pieces on Macintosh- related topics; what about a critique of the Mac OS X kernel (including sections on the I/O Kit and the Mach subsystem) by someone who actually understands what's different from vanilla FreeBSD? Or, at a slightly higher level, an article could discuss how Apple used pieces of NetBSD and FreeBSD, including their reasons for using which pieces where. Ideally, an engineer from Apple should write this piece, but they're unlikely to have the time. OTOH, getting an Apple engineer to review something should be quite possible. Before anyone asks whether I'm volunteering to write pieces of this sort, I'll state that I fully intend to write some Mac OS X material, but I may not be in a position to write certain pieces, simply because I don't have the necessary background. In any case, we need LOTS of articles and I can only write so much on any topic without starting to repeat myself. Getting back to the press release notion, I do have a suggestion. The "FreeBSD in the Press" page (http://www.freebsd.org/news/press.html) is a great starting point for a "press contacts" list. If someone in the FreeBSD community (and/or BSDi) wants to start feeding material to the press, consider contacting these authors and asking them how the FreeBSD Project can help them write more pieces! -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; phone: +1 650-873-7841 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - 1 Apr 2000 SEATTLE - The FreeBSD Project, Inc. officially welcomed today the introduction of Apple Computer's Mac OS X. The next-generation operating system uses the TCP/IP stack of an obsolete version of FreeBSD's flagship product, and is otherwise completely unrelated. Apple's embracement of open-source software stretches far beyond its shameless duplication of the FreeBSD networking subystem. The Cupertino-based corporation recently released the core of OS X, Darwin, under the moniker "Public Source," after refusing to comply with Open Source Foundation rules for using the Open Source trademark. OS X ships with such industry-standard sofware as the Z shell and the Apache Web server, although the company recently announced to not contribute to either product. FreeBSD welcomes Apple's new OS release, touting the systems' completely different APIs, kernel architectures, platform support and target market. The new version of Mac OS is but one of several operating systems with hardly any relationship to FreeBSD whatsoever, including TOPS-20, WindRiver, VMS and AmigaOS. Apple plans to further the non-partnership as well. "We intend to further dissociate ourselves from FreeBSD, Inc." said a company representative. "We'll finish developing our in-house version of ps before the end of Q3 2002." Resoources: * www.apple.com * www.freebsd.org * www.getreal.net :) - dan feldman student, garfield high school, seattle On Sat, 24 Mar 2001, Rich Morin wrote: As a part-time journalist, I receive a fair number of press releases. Most get tossed, unopened, in an effort to simplify my life. When I do open a release, it all too frequently contains news of some VP of paper clips who has gotten promoted to Senior VP of office supplies. I have considered writing a form letter to send back to these folks, but it has never seemed to be worth the trouble. In short, I'm not too keen on press releases. I do think some kinds of PR materials are worthwhile, however. For instance, if I am trying to write a column on a topic, it's great to have a clearly-written white paper that tells me more than I can put into the article (but enough that I don't say silly things in trying to boil the topic down for the reader). I tend to find these gems by means of a web search and may follow them up by contacting the author(s) and/or PR contacts that are listed therein. All of which leads me to believe that FreeBSD might benefit from a web-based collection of white papers and other press resources. I don't know who is going to write these, but pulling a few documents (or links to documents) together onto a page might be a good start. Another useful PR technique involves writing articles and getting them published. The press needs a continuous stream of articles to keep the ads from slamming together. If you have the ability to do an authoritative and readable article on a topic of interest, you'll have no problem getting it published! MacTech, for instance, likes to get technical pieces on Macintosh- related topics; what about a critique of the Mac OS X kernel (including sections on the I/O Kit and the Mach subsystem) by someone who actually understands what's different from vanilla FreeBSD? Or, at a slightly higher level, an article could discuss how Apple used pieces of NetBSD and FreeBSD, including their reasons for using which pieces where. Ideally, an engineer from Apple should write this piece, but they're unlikely to have the time. OTOH, getting an Apple engineer to review something should be quite possible. Before anyone asks whether I'm volunteering to write pieces of this sort, I'll state that I fully intend to write some Mac OS X material, but I may not be in a position to write certain pieces, simply because I don't have the necessary background. In any case, we need LOTS of articles and I can only write so much on any topic without starting to repeat myself. Getting back to the press release notion, I do have a suggestion. The "FreeBSD in the Press" page (http://www.freebsd.org/news/press.html) is a great starting point for a "press contacts" list. If someone in the FreeBSD community (and/or BSDi) wants to start feeding material to the press, consider contacting these authors and asking them how the FreeBSD Project can help them write more pieces! -r -- http://www.cfcl.com/rdm - home page, resume, etc. http://www.cfcl.com/Meta/md_fb.html - The FreeBSD Browser email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; phone: +1 650-873-7841 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
In message Pine.BSF.4.21.0103242148060.89919-10@localhost, Dan Feldman wr ites: under the moniker "Public Source," after refusing to comply with Open Source Foundation rules for using the Open Source trademark. OS X ships with such industry-standard sofware as the Z shell and the Apache Web server, although the company recently announced to not contribute to either product. "announced intentions", I assume. hardly any relationship to FreeBSD whatsoever, including TOPS-20, WindRiver, VMS and AmigaOS. WindRiver is a company, I believe the OS is called "vxWorks". Anyway, while this is hilarious, I'd be inclined to argue for trying to work *with* them, rather than against them. No matter how hard or futile it seems. -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: so where is our press-release about MacOS X ?
You're right, there's no need to pick fights. But I'm just pointing out that there's no reason FreeBSD should work particularly hard to create the appearance of an alliance with Apple, when all they've done is use the source of some kernel components and a number of utilities for a commercial product. After all, Microsoft is rumored to have done exactly the same thing at times and I have yet to see any press releases about a relationship with _them_. On the other hand, a little evangelism could really help FreeBSD right now. There could be more users, for one, although I doubt millions of former Mac users will switch regardless of the press. The BSDs don't rely on big companies to support them as much as Linux does, so I don't think convincing corporate managers to switch will really help the project. What FreeBSD could use is some kind of magic way to attract developers from the other Unices, but I don't see that coming. What would help FreeBSD the most? An on-time, complete and stable release of 5.0. When I have a bit more free time, I'm planning to fix a few easy PRs - dan feldman student, garfield high school, seattle On Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Peter Seebach wrote: In message Pine.BSF.4.21.0103242148060.89919-10@localhost, Dan Feldman wr ites: under the moniker "Public Source," after refusing to comply with Open Source Foundation rules for using the Open Source trademark. OS X ships with such industry-standard sofware as the Z shell and the Apache Web server, although the company recently announced to not contribute to either product. "announced intentions", I assume. hardly any relationship to FreeBSD whatsoever, including TOPS-20, WindRiver, VMS and AmigaOS. WindRiver is a company, I believe the OS is called "vxWorks". Anyway, while this is hilarious, I'd be inclined to argue for trying to work *with* them, rather than against them. No matter how hard or futile it seems. -s To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
