atheros supported wireless card not seen under 5.4 release - help please
I've been happy with my limited use of FreeBSD and am slowly propagating it to other machines I can find... :) I've just installed 5.4 release (generic) onto an older Dell Inspiron 7500 laptop. I'm trying to get a PCMCIA wireless network card working and having problems. The card is Atheros based and hence listed as supported under the harware list (NEC PA-WL/54AG) via ath(4). If I ifconfig the card is not shown, I only see the loopback. dmesg shows cardbus0: network, ethernet at device 0.0 (no driver attached) Finally, the card has been shown to work in another laptop under another OS so I know the hardware is good. Can anyone give me a few clues where to look that might have a fresh install not seeing this card? Thank you - d. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: atheros supported wireless card not seen under 5.4 release - help please
On Jul 1, 2005, at 11:40 PM, D. Goss wrote: I've been happy with my limited use of FreeBSD and am slowly propagating it to other machines I can find... :) I've just installed 5.4 release (generic) onto an older Dell Inspiron 7500 laptop. I'm trying to get a PCMCIA wireless network card working and having problems. The card is Atheros based and hence listed as supported under the harware list (NEC PA-WL/54AG) via ath(4). If I ifconfig the card is not shown, I only see the loopback. dmesg shows cardbus0: network, ethernet at device 0.0 (no driver attached) Finally, the card has been shown to work in another laptop under another OS so I know the hardware is good. Just went off to check GENERIC - I'm (obviously) new to this but it seems that ath is not in GENERIC, correct? I'll try rebuilding with it... Sorry if it was that - d. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Carp] both node master
Hello, i have got 2 node which have a carp interface. They are both master : on the first: carp0: flags=41UP,RUNNING mtu 1500 inet X.X.105.3 netmask 0xfff8 carp: MASTER vhid 5 advbase 1 advskew 10 on the second: carp0: flags=41UP,RUNNING mtu 1500 inet X.X.105.3 netmask 0xfff8 carp: MASTER vhid 5 advbase 1 advskew 100 netstat -ssp carp gives: carp: 6 packets received (IPv4) 928918 packets sent (IPv4) carp: 778051 packets sent (IPv4) If i sniff the interfaces, i do not see carp packet. sysctl: net.inet.carp.allow: 1 net.inet.carp.preempt: 1 net.inet.carp.log: 1 net.inet.carp.arpbalance: 0 net.inet.carp.suppress_preempt: 0 Thank you in advance, -- Best regards, Mathieu mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Anyone running FreeBSD 4.x or 5.x on a 'VIA EPIA PD' mini-ITX
Hi, Anyone running FreeBSD 4.x or 5.x on a 'VIA EPIA PD' mini-ITX I would be interested to see if you get the full chipset functionality, ie. both NIC's, IDE HD, VGA (X-Windows or just CLI), Audio, USB? How about the Digital IO section? They look very nice :-) http://www.viaembedded.com/product/4/8/epia_pdh.jpg Cheers, Paul Hamilton ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: delivery failed
To send mail to me, you need to add [laundry] to the end of the subject line (eg: Subject: Random message [laundry]). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
starttls sendmail
I'm used to using courier. That mailer can be started as courier-tls or without tls. On another machine (fbsd-5.4R) my sendmail _always_ tries to connect using starttls. This fails because I have no pem files. Is there an easy way of disabling sendmails TLS connections? Or is this not wanted? -- dick -- http://nagual.st/ -- PGP/GnuPG key: F86289CE ++ Running FreeBSD 4.11-stable ++ FreeBSD 5.4 + Nai tiruvantel ar vayuvantel i Valar tielyanna nu vilja ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
polystate in freebsd
result = DEVICE_PROBE(child);
hereif child is a nexus device ,then like polystate in OOP,it will
call nexus's DEVMETHOD :nexus_probe,
it is really great:)
nexus_probe
in device_probe_child(device_t dev, device_t child) in subr_bus.c
static device_method_t nexus_methods[] = {
DEVMETHOD(device_probe, nexus_probe),
In nexus.c
--
we who r about to die,salute u!
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Gnome problems
Hi, Since I installed a new version of pango none of the gnome applications work anymore: ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]$ gnumeric /libexec/ld-elf.so.1: Shared object libpangoft2-1.0.so.600 not found, required by gnumeric you have mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]$ jpilot /libexec/ld-elf.so.1: Shared object libpangoxft-1.0.so.600 not found, required by jpilot ... When I try to install a new version of gnome in order to install all libraries used by those programs, it crashes with: ... BITS=64 -I/usr/local/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/local/lib/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/local/include/libxml2 -I/usr/local/include -I/usr/X11R6/include/gstreamer-0.8 -DGST_DISABLE_DEPRECATED -Wall -O -pipe -I/usr/local/include -MT libgstdtsdec_la-gstdtsdec.lo -MD -MP -MF .deps/libgstdtsdec_la-gstdtsdec.Tpo -c gstdtsdec.c -fPIC -DPIC -o .libs/libgstdtsdec_la-gstdtsdec.o In file included from gstdtsdec.c:29: ../../gst-libs/gst/audio/multichannel.h:24:46: gst/audio/multichannel-enumtypes.h: No such file or directory gmake: *** [libgstdtsdec_la-gstdtsdec.lo] Error 1 *** Error code 2 Stop in /usr/ports/multimedia/gstreamer-plugins-dts. *** Error code 1 ... Now I don't know how I can make those gnome programs work again. I'm running Xfce on FreeBSD 5.3-REL. Thanks in advance. Marco -- Fuch's Warning: If you actually look like your passport photo, you aren't well enough to travel. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gnome problems
On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 14:53:54 +0200 (CEST) Marco Beishuizen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I installed a new version of pango none of the gnome applications work anymore: ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]$ gnumeric /libexec/ld-elf.so.1: Shared object libpangoft2-1.0.so.600 not found, required by gnumeric this url might be of help : http://www.freebsd.org/gnome ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Question
Hi I wasn't sure where to post a question at on your site, so hopefully you can point me in the right dirrection. I am running a website on a designated server. My question involves making a backup server that can run if my designated server goes down. Is there any programs out there that can help me run a backup server at a different location when my designated server goes down. Thanks for your help and time with this question. Richard ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Question
On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 15:04, Rich A. wrote: Hi I wasn't sure where to post a question at on your site, so hopefully you can point me in the right dirrection. I am running a website on a designated server. My question involves making a backup server that can run if my designated server goes down. Is there any programs out there that can help me run a backup server at a different location when my designated server goes down. Thanks for your help and time with this question. Richard Richard, It depends, but you can use heartbeat - http://www.linux-ha.org/ if you have access to both machines. There is a port to freebsd. Rob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: integrated SATA RAID controller on Intel server board SE7520bd2
Olga, I'm afraid you are ALMOST out of luck. The 7520 chipset contains the ICH5R controller. To support RAID1, the ata driver needs the mk3 patches, which are not in 5.4-RELEASE. You can, as you suggest, implement RAID1 in software. There are several postings on this topic. You could also add a RAID controller card. There are many postings on this as well, but if you want an all-Intel configuration, Intel's website lists two compatible Intel RAID boards. -gayn -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Olga Zenkova Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 8:25 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: integrated SATA RAID controller on Intel server board SE7520bd2 Hi! I have Intel server board SE7520bd2 with integrated SATA RAID controller on it and two hard drives that are already configured as RAID 1 (mirror) via BIOS. When I trying to install FreeBSD 5.4 it doesn't see my RAID 1, but sees two individual disks. What can I do? Does it mean that FreeBSD 5.4 does not have the needed driver and all I can do is to configure software RAID? Thanks, Olga __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Lock down device name for USB drive
On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 05:18:04PM -0500, Dan Nelson wrote: In the last episode (Jul 01), Doug Poland said: I'm trying to use the automounter to mount a USB thumbdrive on -STABLE. The only problem I'm having is that, between reboots, the name of the device changes between da0s1 and da1s1. Is there a way to lock down the device name so it doesn't change? Depends on what you want to lock down. If you only want a particular thumbdrive to be mounted, you can give it a label and use geom_label to provide a /dev/msdosfs/mylabel node. If you always want the first usb drive plugged in to be mounted, you can wire down umass and the device to always appear at the same scbus# and da# numbers, by adding something like this to loader.conf: Thanks for the info. This particular box has an internal IDE Zip drive as well. I noticed when I added device atapicam to the kernel, then the Zip drive shows up as /dev/da* . That is complicating things as sometimes either the Zip drive or the USB drive may or may not be plugged in when the machine reboots. I've read man loader.conf and man device hints and I'm a little fuzzy on how the hints work in loader.conf. If I want the Zip drive to always be da0 (here's dmesg from a recent boot) Jul 2 10:29:45 couillard kernel: da0 at ata1 bus 0 target 1 lun 0 Jul 2 10:29:45 couillard kernel: da0: IOMEGA ZIP 100 14.A Removable Direct Access SCSI-0 device Jul 2 10:29:45 couillard kernel: da0: 3.300MB/s transfers Jul 2 10:29:45 couillard kernel: da0: 96MB (196608 512 byte sectors: 64H 32S/T 96C) Then loader.conf should have: hint.ata1.0.at=ata1 hint.da.0.at=ata1 hint.da.0.target=1 hint.da.0.unit=0 And I want the USB drive to be da1 (snip from dmesg again) Jul 2 10:30:26 couillard kernel: umass0: PNY USB DISK 20X, rev 2.00/1.00, addr 2 Jul 2 10:30:27 couillard kernel: da1 at umass-sim0 bus 0 target 0 lun 0 Jul 2 10:30:27 couillard kernel: da1: USB DISK 20X PMAP Removable Direct Access SCSI-0 device Jul 2 10:30:27 couillard kernel: da1: 1.000MB/s transfers Jul 2 10:30:27 couillard kernel: da1: 238MB (487424 512 byte sectors: 64H 32S/T 238C) And loader.conf should read: hint.scbus.0.at=umass0 hint.da.0.at=scbus0 hint.da.0.target=0 hint.da.0.unit=0 Unfortunately, when I reboot, I get the Zip drive at da1 and the Thumbdrive at da2! What am I doing wrong? -- Regards, Doug ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
dot.logout
Hi. FreeBSD provides a bunch of helpful configuration files under /usr/share/skel. But in my opinion one important file isn't there (dot.logout). NetBSD for example has such a dot.logout file. I know that there is a system-wide logout file under /etc but it would be nice to have one for each user by default. Is it possible to add a default /usr/share/skel/dot.logout file to FreeBSD? -Stefan -- GPG-encrypted mail welcome! -- ID:E970FCBE ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: dot.logout
I have several files and directories added to the skel location that are propagated to new user creations. You shouldn't have any trouble at all as long as it doesn't have the same name as one of the standard system files, since these will be overwritten in the 'make installworld' process. -- John Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stefan Thurner Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 11:36 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: dot.logout Hi. FreeBSD provides a bunch of helpful configuration files under /usr/share/skel. But in my opinion one important file isn't there (dot.logout). NetBSD for example has such a dot.logout file. I know that there is a system-wide logout file under /etc but it would be nice to have one for each user by default. Is it possible to add a default /usr/share/skel/dot.logout file to FreeBSD? -Stefan -- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
dot.logout
I have several files and directories added to the skel location that are propagated to new user creations. You shouldn't have any trouble at all as long as it doesn't have the same name as one of the standard system files, since these will be overwritten in the 'make installworld' process. Yes that's a way to work around. But it would be nice to have this file by default. -Stefan -- GPG-encrypted mail welcome! -- ID:E970FCBE ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: starttls sendmail
Dick Hoogendijk wrote: I'm used to using courier. That mailer can be started as courier-tls or without tls. On another machine (fbsd-5.4R) my sendmail _always_ tries to connect using starttls. This fails because I have no pem files. Is there an easy way of disabling sendmails TLS connections? Or is this not wanted? If one side advertises STARTTLS, the other MTA will try to use it. If your Courier install does not have certs/pem files set up, tell Courier not to advertise STARTTLS in the SMTP greeting. However, as a workaround, you can also add something like this to your /etc/mail/access map (from cf/README): Disabling STARTTLS And Setting SMTP Server Features --- By default STARTTLS is used whenever possible. However, there are some broken MTAs that don't properly implement STARTTLS. To be able to send to (or receive from) those MTAs, the ruleset try_tls (srv_features) can be used that work together with the access map. Entries for the access map must be tagged with Try_TLS (Srv_Features) and refer to the hostname or IP address of the connecting system. A default case can be specified by using just the tag. For example, the following entries in the access map: Try_TLS:broken.server NO -- -Chuck ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: starttls sendmail
On 02 Jul Chuck Swiger wrote: A default case can be specified by using just the tag. For example, the following entries in the access map: Try_TLS:broken.server NO So, if I understand correctly putting a line like Try_TLS NO in /etc/mail/access will stop sendmail from using tls sessions? -- dick -- http://nagual.st/ -- PGP/GnuPG key: F86289CE ++ Running FreeBSD 4.11-stable ++ FreeBSD 5.4 + Nai tiruvantel ar vayuvantel i Valar tielyanna nu vilja ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: starttls sendmail
dick hoogendijk wrote: On 02 Jul Chuck Swiger wrote: A default case can be specified by using just the tag. For example, the following entries in the access map: Try_TLS:broken.server NO So, if I understand correctly putting a line like Try_TLS NO in /etc/mail/access will stop sendmail from using tls sessions? Yes. Sendmail's config file needs to be set up to use the access map (it is enabled by default for FreeBSD), and you will need to do a make all in /etc/mail or run makemap yourself to rebuild the access map from the text file. -- -Chuck ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anyone running FreeBSD 4.x or 5.x on a 'VIA EPIA PD' mini-ITX
On Sat, 2005-07-02 at 18:24 +0800, Paul Hamilton wrote: Hi, Anyone running FreeBSD 4.x or 5.x on a 'VIA EPIA PD' mini-ITX I would be interested to see if you get the full chipset functionality, ie. both NIC's, IDE HD, VGA (X-Windows or just CLI), Audio, USB? How about the Digital IO section? They look very nice :-) http://www.viaembedded.com/product/4/8/epia_pdh.jpg Cheers, Paul Hamilton Hi Paul, I use a VIA EPIA PD-1 as a small dsl- router / ftp / print / whatever-server for my LAN here at home running FreeBSD 5.4. The NICs, HDD, USB, CLI work fine. Audio and X-Windows should work too. (I have only tested this on an EPIA M-1, but there it worked without any problems. The onboard graphic chip is fast enough for most 2D application, but it was to slow for me to playback xvid/divx, but an additional PCI graphic card should solve this problem.) When transfering data via ftp I get about 10MB/s up/down. Make buildworld takes about two hours. All in all, it is a nice system and fits my needs. I like it. Andreas -- GnuPG key : 0xD25FCC81 | http://cyb.websimplex.de/pubkey.asc Fingerprint: D182 6F22 7EEC DD4C 0F6E 564C 691B 0372 D25F CC81 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Install of OpenOffice1.9m111 failing due to openssl-0.9.7g
I have the beta port of openssl installed (0.9.7g), but when I try to install OpenOffice-1.9m111 via pkg_add, it complains that it can't find openssl-0.9.7g. I have both the standard and beta ports of openssl installed. Could this be the issue? If so, how do I circumvent with pkg_add? Thanks. -- Cheers, Trey --- The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes. -- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle 4:14pm up 4 days 8:13, 4 users, load average: 0.83, 0.53, 0.52 Linux salamander 2.6.11.4-21.7-default #1 Thu Jun 2 14:23:14 UTC 2005 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: integrated SATA RAID controller on Intel server board SE7520bd2
What and where are the mk3 patches? Mystery Keyboard version 3? Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gayn Winters Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 9:02 AM To: 'Olga Zenkova'; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: integrated SATA RAID controller on Intel server board SE7520bd2 Olga, I'm afraid you are ALMOST out of luck. The 7520 chipset contains the ICH5R controller. To support RAID1, the ata driver needs the mk3 patches, which are not in 5.4-RELEASE. You can, as you suggest, implement RAID1 in software. There are several postings on this topic. You could also add a RAID controller card. There are many postings on this as well, but if you want an all-Intel configuration, Intel's website lists two compatible Intel RAID boards. -gayn -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Olga Zenkova Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 8:25 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: integrated SATA RAID controller on Intel server board SE7520bd2 Hi! I have Intel server board SE7520bd2 with integrated SATA RAID controller on it and two hard drives that are already configured as RAID 1 (mirror) via BIOS. When I trying to install FreeBSD 5.4 it doesn't see my RAID 1, but sees two individual disks. What can I do? Does it mean that FreeBSD 5.4 does not have the needed driver and all I can do is to configure software RAID? Thanks, Olga __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gnome problems
On stardate Sat, 2 Jul 2005, the wise [EMAIL PROTECTED] entered: On Sat, 02 Jul 2005 14:53:54 +0200 (CEST) Marco Beishuizen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I installed a new version of pango none of the gnome applications work anymore: ... [EMAIL PROTECTED]$ gnumeric /libexec/ld-elf.so.1: Shared object libpangoft2-1.0.so.600 not found, required by gnumeric this url might be of help : http://www.freebsd.org/gnome I tried to upgrade gnome with the script provided on the website but it failed. It quits when it tries to install OpenOffice. Now my Xfce is a total mess and I have to install all my Gnome apps manually, but it looks like the libraries I was looking for are installed again. Marco -- Parker's Law: Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes clean to the bone. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: FreeBSD locks up when X-windows running (LONG)
No, I am saying your going to have to rebuild with the June drivers and _see_if_it_works_. If that locks up, well then as Nvidia wrote those drivers, you can call them on their support line. Please report back here and let us know how this works out - a lot of people are avoiding purchasing that chipset or boards with that chipset because Nvidia don't supply programming info, and nobody really knows how well Nvidia is going to support us. Ted -Original Message- From: Mike Friedman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 9:57 PM To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD locks up when X-windows running (LONG) -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 at 21:20 (-0700), Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Your going to have to rebuild your system with the Nvidia written driver, see here: http://www.nvidia.com/object/freebsd_1.0-7667.html and see if it works. Read the readme file with this driver carefully first, then dig around the Internet, there are a few people who have posted notes on setting this driver up. As I indicated in my posting (see below), I did install the March, 2005 version (7174) of the nvidia driver. Are you saying that this new version should make the difference? Thanks. Mike nvidia-FreeBSD-x86-1.0-7174 video driver == _ Mike Friedman System and Network Security [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2484 Shattuck Avenue 1-510-642-1410 University of California at Berkeley http://ack.Berkeley.EDU/~mikef http://security.berkeley.edu _ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBQsYes60bf1iNr4mCEQKNtQCfR7vi8O/pzD3Ixb2Ab1dd9h6lcVgAn3ZB SeNLmdi9F2wGs9gD5UL2DYok =v2eC -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Motorola owerstack
Hello, I just acquired a rather old Motorola powerstack from one of my friends and am curious if it will be able to run freebsd. I'm unsure of the exact model # of the machine. This is some of the information I see when I boot it up. PPC1 Debugger/Diagnostics BIOS V1.9, it is running AIX4.2. Any help is appreciated. Gardner ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phpMyAdmin - Startup Error Message
I am making headway. I am now able to get phpMyAdmin to work in a web browser. There is another problem though; when run it responds with a #1045 error message, to wit: Error #1045 - access denied for user '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' (using password: NO) I have googled for a definitive answer, but without success. It appears that there are quite a few individuals with this same problem. I trust that there are some users of this program who have succeeded in getting it to run successfully who might be willing to tell me what I have to do to get it operational. -- Ciao Gerard Seibert [EMAIL PROTECTED] No one ever says 'It's only a game', when their team is winning. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: phpMyAdmin - Startup Error Message
Without going into why would you want to use this... The error looks to me like a mysql authentication error, which would mean that you either failed to set up the correct account information in mysql or you failed to configure phpMyAdmin with a valid account. Find the phpMyAdmin config file and make sure you entered the correct mysql user account. Then check the mysql db to make sure that the correct user account exists. -- John Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gerard Seibert Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 5:46 PM To: freebsd-questions Subject: phpMyAdmin - Startup Error Message I am making headway. I am now able to get phpMyAdmin to work in a web browser. There is another problem though; when run it responds with a #1045 error message, to wit: Error #1045 - access denied for user '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' (using password: NO) I have googled for a definitive answer, but without success. It appears that there are quite a few individuals with this same problem. I trust that there are some users of this program who have succeeded in getting it to run successfully who might be willing to tell me what I have to do to get it operational. -- Ciao Gerard Seibert [EMAIL PROTECTED] No one ever says 'It's only a game', when their team is winning. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Your mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] requires confirmation
Hello. Your mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] requires your confirmation. To confirm that your mail is legitimate, simply click on this URL: https://www.gradwell.com/u/?c=5a3a18248077c1417acd733 Once you have confirmed this mail then you will never have to confirm any more mails to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You must confirm your mail within one week or else it will be deleted with no further notice to you. Thank you. -- gradwell dot com. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: integrated SATA RAID controller on Intel server board SE7520bd2
http://www.freebsd.org/news/status/report-jan-2005-mar-2005.html#Status- Report-for-FreeBSD-ATA-driver-project (Latest official status on mk3) -Original Message- From: Ted Mittelstaedt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 3:00 PM To: Gayn Winters; 'Olga Zenkova'; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: integrated SATA RAID controller on Intel server board SE7520bd2 What and where are the mk3 patches? Mystery Keyboard version 3? Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gayn Winters Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 9:02 AM To: 'Olga Zenkova'; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: integrated SATA RAID controller on Intel server board SE7520bd2 Olga, I'm afraid you are ALMOST out of luck. The 7520 chipset contains the ICH5R controller. To support RAID1, the ata driver needs the mk3 patches, which are not in 5.4-RELEASE. You can, as you suggest, implement RAID1 in software. There are several postings on this topic. You could also add a RAID controller card. There are many postings on this as well, but if you want an all-Intel configuration, Intel's website lists two compatible Intel RAID boards. -gayn -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Olga Zenkova Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 8:25 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: integrated SATA RAID controller on Intel server board SE7520bd2 Hi! I have Intel server board SE7520bd2 with integrated SATA RAID controller on it and two hard drives that are already configured as RAID 1 (mirror) via BIOS. When I trying to install FreeBSD 5.4 it doesn't see my RAID 1, but sees two individual disks. What can I do? Does it mean that FreeBSD 5.4 does not have the needed driver and all I can do is to configure software RAID? Thanks, Olga __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Anyone running FreeBSD 4.x or 5.x on a 'VIA EPIA PD' mini-ITX
Cool! Thanks Andreas. I am thinking of using one for the same thing. Cheers, Paul -Original Message- From: Andreas Rudisch [mailto:cyb.@gmx.net] Sent: Sunday, 3 July 2005 3:29 AM To: Paul Hamilton Cc: 'Freebsd-Questions' Subject: Re: Anyone running FreeBSD 4.x or 5.x on a 'VIA EPIA PD' mini-ITX On Sat, 2005-07-02 at 18:24 +0800, Paul Hamilton wrote: Hi, Anyone running FreeBSD 4.x or 5.x on a 'VIA EPIA PD' mini-ITX I would be interested to see if you get the full chipset functionality, ie. both NIC's, IDE HD, VGA (X-Windows or just CLI), Audio, USB? How about the Digital IO section? They look very nice :-) http://www.viaembedded.com/product/4/8/epia_pdh.jpg Cheers, Paul Hamilton Hi Paul, I use a VIA EPIA PD-1 as a small dsl- router / ftp / print / whatever-server for my LAN here at home running FreeBSD 5.4. The NICs, HDD, USB, CLI work fine. Audio and X-Windows should work too. (I have only tested this on an EPIA M-1, but there it worked without any problems. The onboard graphic chip is fast enough for most 2D application, but it was to slow for me to playback xvid/divx, but an additional PCI graphic card should solve this problem.) When transfering data via ftp I get about 10MB/s up/down. Make buildworld takes about two hours. All in all, it is a nice system and fits my needs. I like it. Andreas -- GnuPG key : 0xD25FCC81 | http://cyb.websimplex.de/pubkey.asc Fingerprint: D182 6F22 7EEC DD4C 0F6E 564C 691B 0372 D25F CC81 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Lock down device name for USB drive
In the last episode (Jul 02), Doug Poland said: On Fri, Jul 01, 2005 at 05:18:04PM -0500, Dan Nelson wrote: In the last episode (Jul 01), Doug Poland said: I'm trying to use the automounter to mount a USB thumbdrive on -STABLE. The only problem I'm having is that, between reboots, the name of the device changes between da0s1 and da1s1. Is there a way to lock down the device name so it doesn't change? Depends on what you want to lock down. If you only want a particular thumbdrive to be mounted, you can give it a label and use geom_label to provide a /dev/msdosfs/mylabel node. If you always want the first usb drive plugged in to be mounted, you can wire down umass and the device to always appear at the same scbus# and da# numbers, by adding something like this to loader.conf: Thanks for the info. This particular box has an internal IDE Zip drive as well. I noticed when I added device atapicam to the kernel, then the Zip drive shows up as /dev/da* . That is complicating things as sometimes either the Zip drive or the USB drive may or may not be plugged in when the machine reboots. I've read man loader.conf and man device hints and I'm a little fuzzy on how the hints work in loader.conf. If I want the Zip drive to always be da0 (here's dmesg from a recent boot) Jul 2 10:29:45 couillard kernel: da0 at ata1 bus 0 target 1 lun 0 Then loader.conf should have: hint.ata1.0.at=ata1 hint.da.0.at=ata1 hint.da.0.target=1 hint.da.0.unit=0 da# devices always attach to scbus# devices, which in turn attach to ata# devices. The extra layer is important so you can represent all the busses of a multi-channel SCSI adapter. camcontrol devlist -v is the best way I've found to list what attaches to what. And I want the USB drive to be da1 (snip from dmesg again) Jul 2 10:30:26 couillard kernel: umass0: PNY USB DISK 20X, rev 2.00/1.00, addr 2 Jul 2 10:30:27 couillard kernel: da1 at umass-sim0 bus 0 target 0 lun 0 And loader.conf should read: hint.scbus.0.at=umass0 hint.da.0.at=scbus0 hint.da.0.target=0 hint.da.0.unit=0 Unfortunately, when I reboot, I get the Zip drive at da1 and the Thumbdrive at da2! What am I doing wrong? First, you don't want two sets of da0 hints :) This should work: hint.scbus.0.at=ata1 hint.da.0.at=scbus0 hint.da.0.target=1 hint.da.0.unit=0 hint.scbus.1.at=umass0 hint.da.1.at=scbus1 hint.da.1.target=0 hint.da.1.unit=0 -- Dan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
jsha wrote: Hello. I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes and users to the rest of the world. Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it compared to other open source operating systems. 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we produce the most magnificent result? Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) Sincerely, Johann Manaf Tepstad -- j. If you have the time, desire, and talent to address these issues, I'd love to see the results. I'd caution about being inflamatory in your first statement, though. The logo was definitely not done by a 10 yr old with PSPro, and it has emotional significance to many people. I'd definitely like to see what your ideas are for a replacement. Scott ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes and users to the rest of the world. representations are secondary to function. there are markets for which this relationship is inverted. cost of entry is in the mid-eight-figure range. Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. code is art, and feelings are nice. please fix ebcdic first. unicode too. The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it compared to other open source operating systems. modernity is overrated. 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks dumb. like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. who, other than you, cares? 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. break your own website please. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. break your own loader please. 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. if i give you one will you agree to do something useful? How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we produce the most magnificent result? most likely. its troll's fate. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
jsha wrote: Hello. I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes and users to the rest of the world. I am new to FreeBSD, only one month of use or so. I come from Debian GNU/Linux world and only want to say some toughts: Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it compared to other open source operating systems. 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. I really like the devil, it is nice and pleasant for me. 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. The WEB is great!, I like WEBs with no images moving around! Debian WEB (www.debian.org) and FreeBSD WEB pages are simliar in aesthetics and I feel confortable. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. The instalation program is reasonably good , once you do a couple of installs you can do it without thinking too much. snip Enjoy FreeBSD. Ramiro. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Sam wrote: If we want to be taken seriously in the commercial world then we need to have the right image. Look ma, a strawman! The concern you're addressing is the sort of thing distros solved in the Linux world. Each typically has their own image, installer, system config style, etc. More importantly for the commercial world, though, they offer support and certification. The image alone just isn't the problem. Or a problem at all, I'd argue. Let's be honest -- if a ten-year-old made Beastie, then a mentally challenged 3-year-old made Tux (and large portions of the kernel, but I digress). Point being Johann, if the community rejects your work for the core project you can still make your own distro and release it. Give it a shot! Cheers, Sam The distro - vs - core release relationship is one of BSD's greatest strengths and weaknesses. It's a strength because there is no 'distro hell' like there is in linux. When you download FreeBSD, you get the same FreeBSD as everyone else; there is no confusion over how the config files are layed out, no differences in the base utilities, everything compiles the same way, etc. That is a huge benefit. But at the same time, it makes it really hard for people to branch out and experiment in the same way that a linux distro can. FreeSBIE is a good example of this happening and working, but it definitely has hurdles. Variety and competition makes the whole stronger, and at times FreeBSD seems a bit in-bred. To address this, I'm playing with ideas for changing the nature of a FreeBSD 'release' a bit to make it easier for outfits like FreeSBIE to build on top of it. Hopefully I'll have something to show for this in 6.0. Scott ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 01:54:31PM +0200, Daniel Blendea wrote: 1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if the logo would change; Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. Ignoring the whole beastie thing, because we've just done that whole issue, I think someone with skills other than coding taking an interest in our public image would be a good thing. From a business perspective we look amateurish. Lots of people here don't seem to care about the outside world which reinforces the opinion that we've become a hobby OS project now. If we want to be taken seriously in the commercial world then we need to have the right image. Paul. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
From a business perspective we look amateurish. I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an outsider the website and Image conveys a real lack of professionalism, which is not true. I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): 1. The FreeBSD logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll hunt you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just the black wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect FreeBSD part, really, I hate it. Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased modern web font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) and forget the whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of your logo designs are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the page: FreeBSD MALL, UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for example) 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) 3. The color scheme is not complementary anyone who has been to art school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up about basic color theory here: http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever here of Cascading Style Sheets??) 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie the default. I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be nice if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with the way it is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the installer to match the website? Here are some example sites: http://m0n0.ch/wall/screens/system.png http://www.mozilla.org/ http://www.horde.org/logos/ http://www.xfce.org/ http://www.gnome.org/ http://www.gimp.org/ http://www.php.net/ http://freebsd.kde.org/ http://www.google.com/ http://www.apache.org/ http://www.adobe.com/ http://www.openoffice.org/ http://www.sun.com/ http://www.suse.com/ http://www.novell.com/ http://www.ibm.com/ http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/ http://www.mysql.com/ http://cocoon.apache.org/ http://www.w3.org/ http://www.penguincomputing.com/ FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
If we want to be taken seriously in the commercial world then we need to have the right image. Look ma, a strawman! The concern you're addressing is the sort of thing distros solved in the Linux world. Each typically has their own image, installer, system config style, etc. More importantly for the commercial world, though, they offer support and certification. The image alone just isn't the problem. Or a problem at all, I'd argue. Let's be honest -- if a ten-year-old made Beastie, then a mentally challenged 3-year-old made Tux (and large portions of the kernel, but I digress). Point being Johann, if the community rejects your work for the core project you can still make your own distro and release it. Give it a shot! Cheers, Sam ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. I would like to know how you assume that he is a representation of evil, ok he looks like a little devil char but there is more than one definition of a devil and besides he looks kind of cute. So the logo/mascot has been around a while but that doesnt warrant change. If it does then most companies in the world need to update their logos too. Also freebsd is an operating system, if the developers and such spent all this time maintaining its image rather than its OS then freeBSD would no longer be such a great operating system. 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. Granted the installer is not the best installer around, but the main point is that it does the job and it is pretty easy to follow in my opinion anyway. Also there are a couple of projects to my knowledge that are aiming to improve it. 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont understand How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we produce the most magnificent result? Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) -- Theres no place like ::1 Thanks, SimonB ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
John-Mark Gurney wrote: Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now it appears)... Yes As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: link rel=stylesheet type=text/css href=./index.css / And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. learn something new everyday, thanks for the tip. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Nikolas Britton Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:09 PM To: Chris Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. If thats what it takes to get FreeBSD out of obscurity and into the enterprise then yes I will, just look at what apple did with BSD and mozilla did with firefox, I don't want to see FreeBSD (or the other BSDs) die into obscurity as I really like them. I think there's more FreeBSD installations than Apple installations, way, way more. Obscurity is in the eye of the beholder. And talk is cheap. The FreeBSD documentation team has already asked the FreeBSD community to do a site redesign, see here: http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/current.html#website-css Nobody has stepped up to do it. Since your so hot to redesign the site why don't you e-mail them and get going on doing it instead of talking about it? Ted ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now it appears)... As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: link rel=stylesheet type=text/css href=./index.css / And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Nikolas Britton wrote: From a business perspective we look amateurish. I have held off thus far... I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an outsider the website and Image conveys a real lack of professionalism, which is not true. No you don't - would you prefer multi-colored windows? A penguin? What? Are we looking into the geo-political correctness as in the like as the NetBSD project took? I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): Here we go - Let's just re engineer life as we know it. Lets also not offend gays, users of color, males, females, users of religion, users of no religion, users of Windows, users of Linux, users of DOS, users of NetWare, etc, etc, etc. 1. The FreeBSD logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll hunt you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just the black wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect FreeBSD part, really, I hate it. Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased modern web font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) and forget the whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of your logo designs are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the page: FreeBSD MALL, UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for example) You will do no such thing - see above, read the threads on the NetBSD site as to the redoing of the logo 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? 3. The color scheme is not complementary anyone who has been to art school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up about basic color theory here: http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever here of Cascading Style Sheets??) Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Get real. Deal with the OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I really care if a design has passion blue opposed to blue? Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? If you want to re design something (Actually - is sounds like you have been watching way too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie the default. Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be nice if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with the way it is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the installer to match the website? Snip - not worth repeating. FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. -- Best regards, Chris ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:46 pm, Nikolas Britton wrote: FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. ___ It also needs people who realise that multiple cross-posting is deprecated. Could this conversation please be moved to -advocacy and ONLY to -advocacy? Thanks. -- Regards, Brian sos-sa.org.au ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Giorgos Keramidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 2004-12-23 23:02, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nikolas Britton wrote: 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? Actually, no. Nikolas is right here. The sans serif fonts look much better and are more readable on the monitor. Times looks better on paper. Times New Roman was designed for a single purpose: to remain readable even when smudged or printed on low-quality paper. It does not really look good on any medium, but it's less bad than most other fonts on newsprint. Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this discussion. Responding to Nikolas: Arial and Verdana are Windows fonts which is not necessarily installed on www.freebsd.org's readers' machines (though it is available in ports). Conversely, Helvetica is generally not available in Windows. CSS defines 'sans-serif' as a generic alias for whichever sans-serif font looks best on each particular platform (it maps to Arial in Windows, and Helvetica or similar in X); likewise, it defines 'serif' as a generic alias for serif fonts (it maps to Times New Roman in Windows, and a variety of Roman fonts in X depending on the browser and on what fonts are available). DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
On 2004-12-23 23:02, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nikolas Britton wrote: 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? Actually, no. Nikolas is right here. The sans serif fonts look much better and are more readable on the monitor. Times looks better on paper. 3. The color scheme is not complementary anyone who has been to art school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up about basic color theory here: http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever here of Cascading Style Sheets??) Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Get real. Deal with the OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I really care if a design has passion blue opposed to blue? The fact that we don't know a lot about art and design is not a good excuse for reacting badly to anyone that says so. Nikolas, there is an effort to redesign the web site, using CSS as much as possible for style layout, making sure that the entire site has a consistent look and feel. Your comments show that you know a bit about design. If you believe you can help with such an effort, please contact us at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and assist the team who works on the web site. Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? If you want to re design something (Actually - is sounds like you have been watching way too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie the default. Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... ``Who cares?'' is exactly the sort of bad PR that Nikolas is right about. Please avoid inflammatory material, if possible :-/ Nikolas, there is a good reason why the ASCII art logo is not using colors by default. Many people use FreeBSD with a serial console, and sending colors over a serial port connection is a bit silly: annoying an a waste of precious serial connection bandwidth. This is why the loader logo doesn't use fancy colors by default. - Giorgos ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
It was fun while it lasted. Please stop. If you have to, move this to chat. -- Stefan Bethke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fon +49 170 346 0140 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Ramiro Aceves wrote: jsha wrote: 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. I really like the devil, it is nice and pleasant for me. A bit OT, but to make things clear I'd like to point out it's not the devil. It's a daemon. BSD Daemon. Many people equate the word ``daemon'' with the word ``demon,'' implying some kind of Satanic connection between UNIX and the underworld. This is an egregious misunderstanding. ``Daemon'' is actually a much older form of ``demon''; daemons have no particular bias towards good or evil, but rather serve to help define a person's character or personality. The ancient Greeks' concept of a ``personal daemon'' was similar to the modern concept of a ``guardian angel'' --- ``eudaemonia'' is the state of being helped or protected by a kindly spirit. As a rule, UNIX systems seem to be infested with both daemons and demons. quote from: http://www.freebsd.org/copyright/daemon.html Regards, Karol -- Karol Kwiatkowski freebsd at orchid dot homeunix dot org ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Going to reply to the whole thread so far. jsha said: 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years Although I don't like the tone of the other replies, I agree with their sentiment, beasty is as much a part of FreeBSD as the family dog is a part of the family. 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. I don't think the website is all that ugly, personally, however, a new design isn't out of the question. So long as content and navigation is somewhat preserved. I've found certain things difficult to find again when I remember that I saw them somewhere, and I've been using FreeBSD for 7 years now. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. This is on many people's minds, including my own. Now that the holidays are upon us I'm going to try and spend a little of my free time working on putting my ideas into code. Or, I might look again at FreeBSDIE and bsdinstaller and seeing what it would take to bring them into the tree. 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behing a business card. How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we produce the most magnificent result? If you feel it needs to be done, and you would like to work on it, more power to you! Come up with a concept design and submit it for review. I think there are definite improvments to be made in the eyes of the new-comer. I believe there is a www@ team is there not? Might try posting to that list and see what you come up with. FreeBSD survives off people spending time where they see fit. If web-dev and graphic arts is your thing and you want to contribute, I for one will give you the time to submit my opinion of your work. Daniel Blendea said: 1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if the logo would change; Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. 2. again, bu**s**it, the colors are not ugly at ALL, - and i'm not a fan of site's color theme coz i prefer blue-ish colors - again, think about identity...whenever one FreeBSD'er sees the logo/colors - on software packages, media and the like - he will know that product is related to FreeBSD 3. please install FreeBSD couple of times, and afterwards you'll get to install it eyes- closed.. This is hardly the way to represent and argument. There is no need to be profane at someone for expressing their ideas to aid the project. It should be encouraged. Others, please don't feed the troll. Simon Burke said: Also freebsd is an operating system, if the developers and such spent all this time maintaining its image rather than its OS then freeBSD would no longer be such a great operating system. The code developers don't have to spend time on web-dev and graphics. But if there is a willing body that might not be able to work on the code but has talent in the user-interface, web-development, and graphic arts field, why not let them give their time to the project in a manner that fits their skills? Please don't bash or make light of those that contribute things other than code. Rock on doc@ team. Code or not you've done a great job. It takes many skillsets to develop and maintain a tool such as FreeBSD code is just one of them. -- Ryan Sommers [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 09:40:00PM -0800, John-Mark Gurney wrote: Nikolas Britton wrote this message on Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 22:46 -0600: [ Choosing a random(ish) post to reply to - I am on holiday right now and I will not pretend to have read the whole thread ] 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) you mean a sans-serif font? yes, most computer display fonts should be sans-serif since the screen resolution does not always allow you to do that... (and Helvetica isn't that modern, about 50 years old now it appears)... As for CSS, it appears that we do use CSS on the site: link rel=stylesheet type=text/css href=./index.css / I just committed that before I left for holidays; it is only a first step towards CSS'ing the site, and once the conversion to CSS is complete then it should be simple to have an a best stylesheet competition or similar (something along those lines was discussed on doc@ a couple of weeks ago). Matt Seaman posted a link to a crappy here is what CSS can do mockup that I posted to doc@ just before the commit mentioned above - it's at http://shrike.submonkey.net/~ceri/data2/index.html (be sure to let all the images load - this is on a slow link - and be aware that it doesn't work properly in IE for reasons that DES mentioned elsewhere). Once the conversion to CSS is complete then I have ideas for a way to offer users a personalised stylesheet (subject to implementation [I do not have a computer with me] and benchmarking [it is likely to be a little slow, though this remains to be seen]), and then you will all whine like bitchen about being asked to accept a cookie. Simon@ also has a parallel project running to redesign the site on a more fundamental which is showing promise; my main focus at present is to migrate all style related bits into stylesheets, at which point it will be easy to mess around with colour/font/layout. At present, it is not. So yes, to whoever asked the question, we have heard of CSS and we have not only been using it (minimally) for over three years, but there is real activity in improving what we do have already. And part of CSS is letting people choose what font they want to display the site in... It appears at least Mozilla chooses Times by default... So I'd more complain to the browers that display with the default font.. Stimmt. Ceri -- Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-- Einstein (attrib.) pgpgq55Jgs0Bn.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
This beyond a doubt is one of the best explanations that I have seen, heard, expressed, etc., of how the fsck'ed up world of business does IT stuff, and I have done IT consulting on various levels for over 18 years. Very well said Ted. It points out quite well why BSD in general has a bad time in the marketplace. Regards, Frank At 11:36 PM 12/27/2004, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM To: Simon Burke Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? Simon Burke wrote: [snip] 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it because it works better than most commercial operating systems let alone most operating systems. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me in to you' FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand their current system. CEO's choose Windows because they think that there's enough Windows guys out there that if they don't like the one they have they can boot him out and get another. They only will give up choosing Windows if they either absolutely cannot afford it, or if Windows simply won't do what they need done. If they cannot afford it, what they will then do is keep dragging Windows consultant after Windows consultant in to present to them, until they stumble over an ignoramus (which is not hard) who over commits himself and promises the world. They will then burn up this guy, threatening lawsuits and everything else until they have extracted the last drop of free work they can, then they will jettison him. If they simply cannot find any ignoramuses then I've seen them try deputizing some sales guy or secretary to manage their Windows deployment, and finally a year afterwards when they have a house full of Windows XP Home edition and no server, and a giant workgroup that's falling apart, and they have lost some critical files because they wern't backing up Sally Sue's workstation and her disk crashed, then they will panic and overspend
RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM To: Simon Burke Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? Simon Burke wrote: [snip] 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it because it works better than most commercial operating systems let alone most operating systems. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me in to you' FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand their current system. CEO's choose Windows because they think that there's enough Windows guys out there that if they don't like the one they have they can boot him out and get another. They only will give up choosing Windows if they either absolutely cannot afford it, or if Windows simply won't do what they need done. If they cannot afford it, what they will then do is keep dragging Windows consultant after Windows consultant in to present to them, until they stumble over an ignoramus (which is not hard) who over commits himself and promises the world. They will then burn up this guy, threatening lawsuits and everything else until they have extracted the last drop of free work they can, then they will jettison him. If they simply cannot find any ignoramuses then I've seen them try deputizing some sales guy or secretary to manage their Windows deployment, and finally a year afterwards when they have a house full of Windows XP Home edition and no server, and a giant workgroup that's falling apart, and they have lost some critical files because they wern't backing up Sally Sue's workstation and her disk crashed, then they will panic and overspend on a Windows installation. The CEO's that choose FreeBSD or Linux are the ones where even the Windows consultants they drag in all tell them I can't do that either because Windows cannot do it, or because the price they want it done at is so unbelievably cheap that even the ignoramus Windows consultants can see that it's impossible. My take on it is that about 90% of the FreeBSD
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: nbritton wrote: gain this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical merit alone. A var that has a thriving Linux consultancy and no FreeBSD experience isn't going to buy into FreeBSD. The only time your going to get a consultant with no FreeBSD experience into looking at FreeBSD is if they can't make a go of it with their existing product line, or if they have never done consulting before and are just starting out. This is one of main point I'm trying to make in all of these talks. How are they ever going to know it's out there and when they do make first contact don't you think we should greet them in a professional manner? Sorry if I mangled the message a bit when I cut out all the fluff. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Hello. I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes and users to the rest of the world. Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it compared to other open source operating systems. 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we produce the most magnificent result? Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) Sincerely, Johann Manaf Tepstad -- j. pgpH00IdRoD8t.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM To: Simon Burke Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it because it works better than most commercial operating systems let alone most operating systems. It does, and that is why I use it. Amiga was like that too. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about a product website. Why are you even talking to CEOs? This is a job for CTOs and/or CIOs, and if a company didn't have one you wound then be talking to a CFO or COO. What they care about is: 'can what I need done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me in to you' d) support. e) what everyone else uses. Most companys only care about d and e as windows is nether a, b, or c... umm how'd it go... No one ever got fired for buying IBM I've frankly never seen a Linux-vs-FreeBSD deal where Linux won if the consultant wanted to use FreeBSD, You assuming the consultant even knows about FreeBSD, most do not. and the customer was willing to deviate from Microsoft. Know your market, we are not trying to get them to switch to FreeBSD from Windows, we are the alternative to the alternative for a company that has already decide to go with the alternative instead of windows. VERY few customers are willing to deviate from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. On the desktop yes, but where not talking about desktops here, where talking about servers and Linux has its claws all over the server market. We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! I would suggest that if you really are this lit up about this issue that you direct your customers to you OWN website which is quite obviously superior to the FreeBSD one. Now thats just asinine. Roger, you really need to be dumbing down your presentations, these CEO's your presenting to really don't understand all those big words. Instead of using FreeBSD use UNIX It's shorter and even the most sheltered of them understand that yooouu-nikx is something that runs computers like winders is. I'm sorry to say but anyone outside of IT/IS/MIS has no clue what UNIX is. at best they mistake it for Linux. And rather than telling them how many mega-bytes and giga-bits the nice new server is going to run at, just tell them it's going to be big, and fast and powerful like Arnold Schwartznegger. I agree with you about the megabit and bytes but you have gone to far to the other extreme, they are not stupid, the CEO's job is to keep the company afloat not know what a megabyte is, this is why we have CTOs and CIOs. In fact you might just consider hiring a professional salesperson that doesen't really know too much about what your selling. this is a good idea, I'd have to agree with him. You shouldn't even be talking about operating systems until you have sold them on yourself and your company, Again this is are target market; consultants, integrators, vars, etc. I bet 80% of them don't even know FreeBSD exists and of the 20% that do only 20% would consider using and recommending it based on technical merit alone. I want a part of the linux pie! ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
On Dec 25, Nikolas Britton responded thusly: Colin J. Raven wrote: On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Smørgrav launched this into the bitstream: Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of the engine. One should not buy a car without at least looking under the hood, kicking the tires, and taking it for a test drive. One should not need to strike tires with one's footwear in order to determine the suitability of the vehicle. Regards, -Colin -- Colin J. Raven 3:19PM up 4:20, 2 users, load averages: 1.76, 1.63, 1.59 Today's Random Silliness: There's a disturbance in the force, OK...who didn't flush the toilet? ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100 jsha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes and users to the rest of the world. You know that you write this a t a time where a lot of people are visiting their family and don't have email access or don't read the mailinglists? At least this is the case for a lot of FreeBSD committers. Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. Even if a lot of committers won't/can't answer now: there are people which agree with you (maybe not all, but you know what we say about bikesheds, don't you?). The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it compared to other open source operating systems. 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks We had an discussion a while ago about this. The way I understand the conclusion is: we have a mascot, but no logo (we may use our mascot like other people use a logo ATM). And we want to keep the mascot. We may be interested in a logo, but a logo is a bikeshed topic. Since we're more developers than designers, nobody stepped up to proceed on this topic (at least I don't know about it if someone proceeded further). If you want to put your energy into creating a logo, there will be people which listen to you. like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. This is a little bit harsh. I suggest to stay with facts and suggestions. Keep such rants for your personal pleasure, we don't need them. 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. The doc team is progressing in this direction... at least if I read the content between the lines of commit logs right. I think they try to separate the content from the design at the moment (the prerequisite to use the full power of CSS). I suggest to get in contact with them to not reinvent the wheel. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. Yes. AFAIK the Freesbie project is integrating the bsdinstaller (the installer DragonFly uses) ATM. We will see how this works out and depending on this there may be interest to integrate the installer into FreeBSD. 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. Even if there are some people which don't think this is needed, I like this idea. In may day to day job I'm working as a consultant, so I know where/how/why this may be beneficial (or not). How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we produce the most magnificent result? We can't guarantee that any of your work will be adopted, but I don't think your work will be ignored (be prepared to get a lot of critique... positive and negative one). Bye, Alexander. -- The best things in life are free, but the expensive ones are still worth a look. http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander @ Leidinger.net GPG fingerprint = C518 BC70 E67F 143F BE91 3365 79E2 9C60 B006 3FE7 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Frank Pawlak wrote: This is one of several issues that have been brought up on an almost periodic basis for the past several years. There have been several attempts by various folks, including a rather ambitious one by this author, and all have died because of severe lack of interest. It has been a few years since I have posted to this news group but my advise to you is to give it up. You will only meet with much frustration, apathy, and something along the lines of if you don't like it fix it yourself. I say we keep on rehashing this everyday until someone does it just to shut us up. ;-) Has there ever been an attempt at forming a group so us like minded people can fix it ourselfs? I consider this very unfortunate, because has some commercial properties that could well be more attractive than other OS'S. The development team just is not interested in this issue. I have fought many a battle in years past over marketing issues with members of the core team and others. OK, everyone lets see you flame throwers. Wes Petters, Jordan Hubbard, are you out there;-) Frank At 06:57 PM 12/27/2004, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: Simon Burke wrote: [snip] 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! [snip] 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont understand Clearly, you have not tried to sell FreeBSD to a big corporation. -- R ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this discussion. Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. CSS is a W3 standard, but was originally designed by the CTO of Opera Software, a company which is one of Microsoft's more vocal detractors and which recently received a large settlement in a lawsuit regarding Microsoft's (alleged) intentional efforts to make their website render poorly in Opera's browser. IE handles CSS1 badly, and CSS2 almost not at all. Calling it a Windows thing severely misrepresents the facts. One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
This is one of several issues that have been brought up on an almost periodic basis for the past several years. There have been several attempts by various folks, including a rather ambitious one by this author, and all have died because of severe lack of interest. It has been a few years since I have posted to this news group but my advise to you is to give it up. You will only meet with much frustration, apathy, and something along the lines of if you don't like it fix it yourself. I consider this very unfortunate, because has some commercial properties that could well be more attractive than other OS'S. The development team just is not interested in this issue. I have fought many a battle in years past over marketing issues with members of the core team and others. OK, everyone lets see you flame throwers. Wes Petters, Jordan Hubbard, are you out there;-) Frank At 06:57 PM 12/27/2004, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote: Simon Burke wrote: [snip] 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! [snip] 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont understand Clearly, you have not tried to sell FreeBSD to a big corporation. -- R ___ freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-advocacy To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/2004 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: Giorgos Keramidas [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 2004-12-23 23:02, Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nikolas Britton wrote: 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this discussion. Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. -- Best regards, Chris You can't expect to hit the jackpot if you don't put a few nickles in the machine. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Simon Burke wrote: [snip] 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. We, the users, might not care about our image, but if we want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world we better do something about it! [snip] 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. I have to ask why? why would people need such things? that i just dont understand Clearly, you have not tried to sell FreeBSD to a big corporation. -- R ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Chris wrote: Nikolas Britton wrote: From a business perspective we look amateurish. I have held off thus far... I REALLY REALLY agree with this point, from the prospective of an outsider the website and Image conveys a real lack of professionalism, which is not true. No you don't - would you prefer multi-colored windows? A penguin? What? hmm?, fuck no I hate penguins (esp Linux ones), there's nothing wrong with chucky Are we looking into the geo-political correctness as in the like as the NetBSD project took? No, just a better image in the enterprises and data centers of the world. I'm looking at the start page for FreeBSD right now and here are the things I do not like about it (please don't be offended if I step on toe's and ego's, I am only trying to better FreeBSD): Here we go - Let's just re engineer life as we know it. Lets also not offend gays, users of color, males, females, users of religion, users of no religion, users of Windows, users of Linux, users of DOS, users of NetWare, etc, etc, etc. How did you extrapolate that from what I said? I guess I did step your toe's and ego, I was only trying to give constructive criticism. 1. The FreeBSD logo is crap, not beastie (he's a keeper!!!, I'll hunt you down and do bad things to you if you take him away!), Just the black wannabe (and badly done) 3D effect FreeBSD part, really, I hate it. Redo the whole logo in photoshop with a bold, antialiased modern web font: (Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Century Gothic, etc.) and forget the whole 3D effect as that is so 90s. Generally all of your logo designs are unprofessional (the logos at the bottom of the page: FreeBSD MALL, UseNix, Daemon News, and Powered by FreeBSD for example) You will do no such thing - see above, read the threads on the NetBSD site as to the redoing of the logo I DON'T want it redesigned (like NetBSD did) just re-done... same logo just better looking, image is everything you know. 2. I cringe when I see Times New Roman, again redo the whole site with a modern web font: Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Etc. (ever here of Cascading Style Sheets?) CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? No, it's a web standard: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/ also it would be a good idea to look into XHTML: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ 3. The color scheme is not complementary anyone who has been to art school or taken design classes will know what I talking about, read up about basic color theory here: http://www.color-wheel-pro.com/color-theory-basics.html (again, ever here of Cascading Style Sheets??) Guess what mate - most of us are NOT into art. Yes I can tell, I was trying to offer some helpfull tips Get real. Deal with the OS, not the look and feel of the site. Do I really care if a design has passion blue opposed to blue? Yes Do you really thing techies are THAT into pastels? I don't like pastels ether, to girly, I like bold and neutral colors. If you want to re design something (Actually - is sounds like you have been watching way too much TLC) then get a gig on Monster House. I watch the history channel most of the time or the courses offered by the local college on channel 20 , I really think TLC has gone down hill with all the trading spaces type shows, though page is cute. It's just that I've always had a good eye for this type of stuff. 4. I like the Beastie logo on the boot loader screen but ASCII art is unprofessional... It would be better if you made the color ASCII beastie the default. Who cares?!?! It's resource friendly tho... That is true. I have no real issues with the layout of the site and it would be nice if the installer was more user friendly but I am content with the way it is, maybe you should change the color scheme of the installer to match the website? Snip - not worth repeating. FreeBSD is badly in need of a PR/Design/Marketing department. Maybe you can start, The Queer-Eye for the BSD-Guy. If thats what it takes to get FreeBSD out of obscurity and into the enterprise then yes I will, just look at what apple did with BSD and mozilla did with firefox, I don't want to see FreeBSD (or the other BSDs) die into obscurity as I really like them. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Colin J. Raven wrote: On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Smørgrav launched this into the bitstream: Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of the engine. One should not buy a car without at least looking under the hood, kicking the tires, and taking it for a test drive. Merry Christmas, Nikolas ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this discussion. Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. CSS is a W3 standard, but was originally designed by the CTO of Opera Software, a company which is one of Microsoft's more vocal detractors and which recently received a large settlement in a lawsuit regarding Microsoft's (alleged) intentional efforts to make their website render poorly in Opera's browser. IE handles CSS1 badly, and CSS2 almost not at all. Calling it a Windows thing severely misrepresents the facts. One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. DES Technically - I didn't criticize. Allow me to post verbatim; CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? Doesn't look like it to me - looks more like a query or two. But that's just me tho - perhaps you read something else? Perhaps too much eggnog? Perhaps not enough? -- Best regards, Chris ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 4:57 PM To: Simon Burke Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? Simon Burke wrote: [snip] 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. Aesthetics are not everything, the web site does what its supposed to do. Also i actually like how it looks. A lot of people have strong feelings about all these all singing all dancing webistes. There is just no need. Keep it simple and easy to navigate around thats all thats really important. If the aesthetics really matter more than function to such people who use BSD then they would probably be not using BSD but either windows or linux, where you have a nice pretty GUI to look at all the nice pretty sites. This is where I think a lot of people simply does not understand the problem. Roger I understand the problem, I wrote a book on FreeBSD integration in 2000. The problem is I think you don't understand the problem. Im a FreeBSD user. I like FreeBSD because it does not have all the flashy installers and pretty GUI's that many linux distros seems to have today. That frankly isn't the reason you should like it. You should like it because it works better than most commercial operating systems let alone most operating systems. The reason? Like there was only one reason to like an os? I like FreeBSD due to its lack of bells and whistles, but I also like it due to its stability, performance, ease of use and license, among many other reasons. Maybe I should have made that more clear, I do not wish to come across as a guy that favours an os based on one reason alone. But still, Ive been screaming for years for someone to improve the website. Why? Anyone that has stood in front of a boardroom full of CEO's or similar and tried to promote the use of FreeBSD in a big organisation knows why. They might like all the facts about the os, the rock-solid stability, the lightning-fast performance and its solid reputation as a server os, but one look at the website and they will run screaming towards the nearest linux advocate instead. Most of the CEO's I've dealt with don't give a shit on a shingle about a product website. What they care about is: 'can what I need done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me in to you' I think we have a missunderstanding here. I already work for a big corporation. When I said that I was trying to sell FreeBSD, I meant that I was trying to get the company that I work for to chose FreeBSD over some other product. Im not a consultant of any kind, Im a fulltime employed technician trying to keep my employers network up and running. FreeBSD meets criteria A and B really well but it does not meet C. Linux meets A and B but BARELY meets C. Windows definitely meets C and usually meets B and doesen't usually meet A. The problem of course is that A and C are related. If I am a CEO and I sign a FreeBSD or Linux deal - and you are a sole-source provider, then once I have all my business processes into you, I'm locked into you. Once that happens my thought processes are that your going to become very expensive to me - why, because there's no competition to you out there. I'm not going to do that unless I trust you implicitly. And there's very few business people I am ever going to trust implicitly, save perhaps unless your a son or daughter, and even then I may not. You have to understand of course that this is old-school knee-jerk thinking. The CEO's are scared to death of you Roger. They don't understand what your selling, they don't understand how to integrate technology into their systems, they don't even understand their current system. As I explained earlier, Im not selling anything. We are several technicians at my company, some of us prefer BSD while others prefer linux, windows, sun or whatever the flavour of the day is. Everytime we get a new bunch of servers or a new task needs to be done, there is a religious war before we decide what os to use. Most of the time, the board wants a say in decisions like this, and BSD almost always loses this, due to a very unproffesional image. Since the company already has the expertise inhouse, the hardware has been ordered and everything is paid, they dont give a shit about price. When I tell them that BSD can do everything they want and do it good, they listen. When I tell them that its free, they listen but they dont really care. When the linux guys makes exactly the same claims and also is able to back
RE: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Nikolas Britton Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:50 AM To: Ted Mittelstaedt Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Simon Burke Subject: Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated? Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: What they care about is: 'can what I need done be done in a way that is a) cheap and b) works and c) won't lock me in to you' d) support. e) what everyone else uses. Most companys only care about d and e as windows is nether a, b, or c... umm how'd it go... No one ever got fired for buying IBM If you think about it, d and e are the same thing as a and c. What does support constitute to the average CEO? If you asked them they would say that it's the ability to pick up the phone and get the problem fixed, right? Well guess what - you can do that with FreeBSD, there's paid incident support here: http://www.bsdmall.com/fbsdpay4tech.html about the same cost as the Microsoft offering, as a matter of fact. If you tell them that, they will sit back, scratch their head, and eventually say something along the lines of 'well I can just call any joe blow in the yellow pages for windows questions' And they are right. Because there's lots of so-called 'windows consultants' out there who are to put it bluntly, so piss-poor that they will give you gobs of free-but-worthless support over the phone in an attempt to get an appointment with you for some billable time. And if that doesen't work well, my kid brother has a computer that he plays Doom on all the time so he must be a computer sexpert, right? The people selling commercial FreeBSD support want a lot of money - but in exchange you get support that is actually worth what you pay for. The people selling commercial Windows support are all over the map - some do want a lot of money for good support, others will take a little bit of money for crap support. The CEOs that don't know any better figure that the cheap support is as good as the expensive support - so they then classify the expensive support (both windows and freebsd) in the 'nonexistent' category and then tell you with a straight face that freebsd is not supported. Now, if your talking hardware support - then please, yes there's lots of cheapskates running offices who are buying winprinters so they can save $50, we know that. And paying double for the ink cartridges, yes I know that one too. And as for the every one else uses it - where do you see this most? It's in the companies that don't want to spend a cent on training people. They want to hire their secretaries out of the local 1 year business prep school and put them to work writing letters with Microsoft Word, because that is all the business prep school trains them to do. What is missed of course is that since those sorts of people are only good for plunking down in front of a Windows XP system with Microsoft Word on it, after those people get finished writing your Microsoft Word document, they spend the last 6 hours of the day downloading new screensavers, changing the fonts on their computers, instant messaging their friends, etc. If instead you plunked them down in front of a FreeBSD system running XFree, after they got done with writing the memo you wanted them to write, they would be unable to idle away time on the computer, and you might actually get some useful work out of them. If you don't believe this take a look at the Microsoft desktop offerings. Microsoft is belatedly waking up to this and ever since NT, a skilled Windows admin can go in and lock down every scrap of anything on all his Windows NT, 2K, or XP desktops so that the secretaries can't do anything other than what their job is. And more and more companies are starting to do this, or at least try doing it. Know your market, we are not trying to get them to switch to FreeBSD from Windows, we are the alternative to the alternative for a company that has already decide to go with the alternative instead of windows. you might be. But your fighting the hardest battle. Unlike you I'm out there showing them how many tens of thousands of dollars they are going to save by not buying a new server that is running XP Pro Server, and Microsoft Exchange, and all the other nasty proprietary business software that Microsoft has designed to leech onto your company. VERY few customers are willing to deviate from Microsoft, at least not in the Western states. On the desktop yes, but where not talking about desktops here, where talking about servers and Linux has its claws all over the server market. The Linux people are also talking about desktops. In fact, they are concentrating more on the desktops now than on the servers, that is why the Linux distros all have GUI installers and the like. When was the last time you installed Linux? Today's Linux is designed to be installed by a
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
Chris wrote: Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: Responding to Chris: CSS is neither outdated nor a Windows thing. You apparently need to get an extra clue or two before you rejoin this discussion. Not really - Some years back MS made a big issue about CSS. It was then that I lost interest in web devel. Besides - web devel isn't my bag, so I really don't think that I need to have or get a clue. CSS is a W3 standard, but was originally designed by the CTO of Opera Software, a company which is one of Microsoft's more vocal detractors and which recently received a large settlement in a lawsuit regarding Microsoft's (alleged) intentional efforts to make their website render poorly in Opera's browser. IE handles CSS1 badly, and CSS2 almost not at all. Calling it a Windows thing severely misrepresents the facts. One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. DES Technically - I didn't criticize. Allow me to post verbatim; CSS? Isnt that a bit outdated? Isnt that more a Windows thing? Doesn't look like it to me - looks more like a query or two. But that's just me tho - perhaps you read something else? Perhaps too much eggnog? Perhaps not enough? Allow me to end this with this thought, if there is any doubt that what I asked was indeed a question (opposed to a statement of fact as DES seems to say (Calling it a Windows thing severely misrepresents the facts)) Here is a quote from Dictionary.com on Question - http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=question 1. An expression of inquiry that invites or calls for a reply. 2. An interrogative sentence, phrase, or gesture. In addition, that little thing at the then of the line (?) also defines it as the above mentioned. -- Best regards, Chris ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
On Dec 25, Dag-Erling Smørgrav launched this into the bitstream: Chris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One does not need to know how to rebuild an engine to know how to drive the car. One should not criticize the design of an engine while vehemently claiming to have no interest in how enginges are built. One should not buy a car without at least knowing the general specs of the engine. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD's Visual Identity: Outdated?
1. bu**s**it, Beastie is **COOL** and would be a loss of identity if the logo would change; Dear Sir, please read the page where what greek daemons are explained.. 2. again, bu**s**it, the colors are not ugly at ALL, - and i'm not a fan of site's color theme coz i prefer blue-ish colors - again, think about identity...whenever one FreeBSD'er sees the logo/colors - on software packages, media and the like - he will know that product is related to FreeBSD 3. please install FreeBSD couple of times, and afterwards you'll get to install it eyes- closed.. thank you for reading and please excuse my excited tone, Daniel On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 12:27:31 +0100, jsha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello. I am writing this e-mail hoping that someone will share my thoughts on how the world's best operating system should represent its attributes and users to the rest of the world. Being an architect as well as graphic designer, I feel it is about time for a complete revamp of the visual aesthetics of the FreeBSD project. The current logo and everything pertaining to it has long since lost its modern touch. I believe that if this image is strenghtened, so is the way outsiders view the FreeBSD project and the way they would judge it compared to other open source operating systems. 1. Not only is the logo misleading (associating evil) but it also looks like something 10-year-olds could produce in Paint Shop Pro ten years ago. OpenBSD has an artistic touch to theirs, however I was very disappointed when I heard that the new NetBSD logo was in effect. 2. If it wasn't for the interesting content and structure of the FreeBSD website, it would be among the less beautiful. Yes, it serves its purpose well by being simple and straight to the point. But a redesign could offer just the same -- simplicity and accuracy -- without being ugly. 3. The installation, even though it's text-only, could also be improved by simple restructuring to act more cognitive and human-centered than previously. Everything pertaining to the eye is important to improve. 4. There should be some kind of FreeBSD business card and letterhead available to all that support this project. How do I know though, that if I manage to pull together a team to work on this refined vision, that we won't be totally ignored even though we produce the most magnificent result? Anyone that are interested, please reply ;-) Sincerely, Johann Manaf Tepstad -- j. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-arch To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System Crash when kldload if_ndis
I'm not sure if the problem I am having is with the kernel modules I am using (I've tried with two different ones) or with the ndis module itself or what. I am running FreeBSD 5.4 amd64 on an Asus A8V-E Deluxe motherboard, AMD 64 3000+, 512MB RAM. The ndis drivers I am using are for a Marvell 88E8053 gigabit ehternet controller and the onBoard wifi controller of the Asus A8V-E Deluxe (i'm not sure what the chipset is). When using ndiscvt I get the error section relocation failed. Other errors is when I am trying to ndiscvt the marvell driver I get the error: ndiscvt: line 238: Controlled%: syntax error. Here are the lines in the inf file: 237: HKR, Ndi\Params\WakeUpModeCap_A\enum, 0,, %Non% 238: HKR, Ndi\Params\WakeUpModeCap_A\enum, 15,, %OS Controlled% 239: HKR, Ndi\Params\WakeUpModeCap_A\enum, 25,, %Magic Packet% Basically I don't think it likes the spaces, so I went through the whole .inf deleting the spaces wherever it threw up a syntax error and in the end it compiled a kernel module that then crashed the system. I didn't get a chance to get the error when it crashed the system. The wifi driver went through ndiscvt without any problems but when I try and kldload the wifi driver I get this error: Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode fault virtual address = 0x96222d5b fault code = supervisor read, page not present instruction pointer = 0x8:0x961e2466 stack pointer = 0x10:0x961d75d0 frame pointer = 0x10:096222d57 code segment= base 0x0, limit 0xf, type 0x1b = DPL 0, pres 1, long 1, def32 0, gran 1 processor eflags= Interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0 current process = 472 (kldload) trap number = 12 panic: page fault Other points to note is that I had to run the marvell .inf file through iconv with the -c flag to ignore characters it couldn't convert, this could possibly have left out some important data from the inf maybe? I'll be gratefull for any suggestions ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: help with matrox parhelia 256Mb with dual head = Success
Looks like I have figured it out and things are working in DVI mode with dual head desktop. It took a couple of friends over my shoulder to figure this out, but once I did what a wonderful thing. Attaching my xorg.conf and X.0.log for viewing and I hope this helps other people out as every other thread I have seen about this card has either gone un answered or the person has just given up and gone with a ati card (which I was about an hour from going to do). Eric * Eric Ekong [EMAIL PROTECTED] [050701 17:34]: As far as I know there is no freebsd driver for the P-Series of the Matrox card P650, P750, and Parhelia. Everything I could find points to using the downloadable driver. The matrox driver for these cards is mtx as opposed tot he mga/mga_hal/mgadrm. Mind sharing your xorg.conf just so I can compare. I had Xinerama in and with it in, my desktops just showed duplicates. Eric * Paul Schmehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] [050701 17:12]: --On Friday, July 01, 2005 13:56:00 -0400 Eric Ekong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Initially the second monitor wasn't coming up at all. Now, with a minor change or two, I have the second monitor coming up, but it seems to bring up a second window manager that I have no access to..., the second monitor just kinda sits there in the default kde start screen. That along with the fact that if I enable Xinerama, I lock up X to the point where I can't drop to a virtual screen because the keyboard and mouse lock up as well. If I've gotten this far I must be only a step or two away from getting this to work fully. Need is to have one desktop stretched across 2 monitors. Roughly 3200x1600 desktop. Do you have this working with the parhelia? No, I have a Radeon X300 card. If so are you using Xorg or XFree86 in ports. I'm guess XFree86 would work in this setup better, but it is just a hunch. I'm using Xorg and Xinerama - two 19 inch monitors - one desktop. The problem that I have is that the right screen won't display until the system goes to sleep. So, when I first login, I change the setttings to get the system to go to sleep in one minute, wait one minute, then move the mouse. The right screen then works as long as I don't log out. (Locking and unlocking the screen works just fine.) But the problems you're having sound more driver related. Was there a reason you chose the Linux driver instead of the native FBSD one? Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Adjunct Information Security Officer University of Texas at Dallas AVIEN Founding Member http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/security/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- === Eric I. Ekong[EMAIL PROTECTED] FreeBSD - The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org K Desktop Environment on FreeBSD http://freebsd.kde.org === Laws of Serendipity: (1) In order to discover anything, you must be looking for something. (2) If you wish to make an improved product, you must already be engaged in making an inferior one. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- === Eric I. Ekong[EMAIL PROTECTED] FreeBSD - The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org K Desktop Environment on FreeBSD http://freebsd.kde.org === Laws of Serendipity: (1) In order to discover anything, you must be looking for something. (2) If you wish to make an improved product, you must already be engaged in making an inferior one. X Window System Version 6.8.2 Release Date: 9 February 2005 X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0, Release 6.8.2 Build Operating System: FreeBSD 5.4 i386 [ELF] Current Operating System: FreeBSD blackguy.unixtechs.org 5.4-STABLE FreeBSD 5.4-STABLE #26: Sat Jul 2 09:18:25 EDT 2005 root@:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/BLACKGUY i386 Build Date: 27 June 2005 Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.X.Org to make sure that you have the latest version. Module Loader present Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting, (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational, (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown. (==) Log file: /var/log/Xorg.0.log, Time: Sat Jul 2 21:04:04 2005 (==) Using config file: /etc/X11/xorg.conf (==) ServerLayout Layout0 (**) |--Screen
