Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Under linux: install pci-tools or something, then "lspci". Adrian 2008/9/4 Dan Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > On 3 Sep 2008, at 1:58 PM, Wesley Shields wrote: > >> I installed the June snapshot of -current on my laptop and it supports >> my Intel 4965 just fine. Support for this card is out there and does >> work, just not in RELENG_7. > > On 3 Sep 2008, at 2:45 PM, Gavin Atkinson wrote: > >> There is support for the Intel 4965 in HEAD, with the iwn(4) driver. > > Thanks guys for the info. > > Not having ANY wired or wireless support in FreeBSD for a very decent Dell > laptop that is flying off of the shelves at $500, I deleted FreeBSD from the > machine and installed Ubuntu 8.04. I therefore cannot run "pciconf -l" at > this moment in time, but I may get back around to it. > > Stay tuned... maybe for 7.2. > > Dan > > ___ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" > ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 08:45 -0600, Dan Allen wrote: > On 4 Sep 2008, at 12:20 AM, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: ... > It was using Ubuntu that caused me to realize how far behind FreeBSD > is on the desktop side, and how, with a SMALL AMOUNT of work and > changes, it could make a big jump forward by this proposed simple > addition. Heck, if nothing else the installer could simply say in a > help screen, "if you want a web browser on your system, type 'pkg_add - > r firefox' on your system and edit blah blah .conf blah". As it > stands right now, however, there is very little in the install process > which helps a user get X up and going with a browser. > > Thanks to everyone else for their comments. > > Dan (this isn't meant to be a flame :) For me, part of the install process was reading the handbook, which details quite clearly how to go from sysinstall to desktop. Projects driven by billionaire South Africans can target their paid developers at whatever tasks they think are important. It seems very few FreeBSD devs are interested enough to attack this 'small amount' of work, and that is their (valid) choice*. In a volunteer project, volunteers work on what interests them, not what someone else thinks is important. Cheers Tom * although check out finstall.sf.net, which looks as though it will be very good. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: ports from -release vs. -latest [was: RE: FreeBSD 7.1 Content]
On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 10:30:49PM +0200, Ernest Sales wrote: > I use to update ports almost weekly from -latest, but the resulting GUI is > not always consistent, so I am considering to stick with the -release tag. > Could someone comment on the quality of ports from -release vs. -latest? In > other words, can I expect a substantial gain in usability by doing so? The ports tree is not branched like the src tree. If you want any updates you get the latest. The ports tree as presented on the install media is merely a snapshot of the tree at that point in time. If you only use that tree you will never receive updates. If that tree works well for you and you don't care about updates of any kind then go ahead and stick on that tree. Personally, I want updates to some important (to me) pieces of software so I do keep things updated. Please do not take this as an opportunity to bring up the "we should use a branched approach to ports" discussion. That's been done many times before so look in the archives if you want more information. -- WXS ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
ports from -release vs. -latest [was: RE: FreeBSD 7.1 Content]
> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 10:22:30 -0400 > From: Jim Pingle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content > To: Wesley Shields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: Dan Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Wesley Shields wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 06:28:44PM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: > >> Hey, these great comments bring up a different solution, > which may be > >> the way to go. > >> > >> It is simple: have a few of the common apps that are > net-centric (like > >> firefox) be simply calls to pkg_add -r in the installer. No ports > >> databases, no packages on the discs. A few packages may be useful > >> (like perl) to someone without net access, but many need > the net to be > >> useful. > > > > No thanks. This means you have to have a working > connection to install > > firefox via this method. Since not everyone will have that > it is still > > necessary to bundle the firefox package on the media, > bringing us right > > back to the very issue you are trying to solve. > > Could this not also be resolved another way? > > Most desktops these days have DVD drives. If someone wants a bootable > desktop-targeted release with X, Firefox and such, why not > make that a DVD > instead of trying to shoehorn all of this into a CD? Most of the older > machines with aging CD-ROM drives or without a DVD drive may > not have the > horsepower to run a live CD with X anyhow. My servers only have CD-ROM > drives, but then again they wouldn't be using a > desktop-oriented live CD > with X either. :-) > > Sure, the download would be (much?) larger, but you would > have a lot more > room to work with. > > The CD installs are great for me, and have worked well for years. > Personally, I install, update to -STABLE from a local cvsup > mirror, then use > an updated ports tree or install packages remotely. The > packages on CD are > out of date practically from the moment they are placed > there, so I rarely > use them. The only package I regularly used was I use to update ports almost weekly from -latest, but the resulting GUI is not always consistent, so I am considering to stick with the -release tag. Could someone comment on the quality of ports from -release vs. -latest? In other words, can I expect a substantial gain in usability by doing so? Ernest > cvsup-without-gui, which has > been replaced by csup in the base system. > > Also, is not Ubuntu a "downstream" release of Debian, much > like FreeSBIE and > PC-BSD are "downstream" of FreeBSD? If you want to compare > apples to apples, > you might investigate those choices a little closer. > > Jim ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 11:20:53PM -0700, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 03:01:48PM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: > > On 3 Sep 2008, at 1:53 PM, Guido Falsi wrote: > >> If you just want na instant workstation, why you just don't try > >> Freesbie or something like that? > > > > Because I want something from the source -- from the main team -- and > > not something downstream. > > I think what you might be looking for is, believe it or not, PC-BSD. I > believe you can install PC-BSD and get a working X desktop with a > browser and all that jazz right out of the box. Don't forget DesktopBSD. I'm not a big user of PC-BSD or DesktopBSD. My desktop operating system is Mac OS X. My servers are FreeBSD WITHOUT_X11=YES. Howeever, it is my understanding, from what I've read, that DesktopBSD tries to stay closer to "the source" in that they use the ports collection to install most of the "make it easier for end-users" stuff. They seem to have an installer and some extra ports. That may give you more of the warm fuzzies than PC-BSD. -- Scott LambertKC5MLE Unix SysAdmin [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
No thanks. This means you have to have a working connection to install firefox via this method. Since not everyone will have that it is still necessary to bundle the firefox package on the media, bringing us right back to the very issue you are trying to solve. -- WXS ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" This is a benefit to me, by doing the minimal boot then net install, I know VERY quickly if the network adapter on the mobo is supported or if I need to go insert some known supported pci Ethernet card. For most users, I suspect a system without net access isn't worth m,uch. Brian ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 05:35:09PM +0200, Marian Hettwer wrote: > > > Ah, I have to disagree. > The last few times I installed a FreeBSD with xorg, I was really pleased > how good xorg was in guessing my hardware in comparison to the olde days of > XFree86. > It was really, install xorg, run xorg -configure, take the config, install > the nvidia driver from ports and nvidia settings too, then replace "nv" > with "nvidia" in xorg.conf and with some clicks in the nvidia settings I > was up and running dual screen. > I thought to myself afterwards, Wow! that was easy. Used to be harder... This goes beyond the scope of the thread. I know I started this, my point was that trying to guess what people will be expecting or trying to do with such an option is difficult. It may cause more problems that solve them, and that things like FreeSBIE are bbetter tools at the job. No objection to an option like "install xorg/fvwm/FF3", but I think it will make just a few people happier, not really help any newbie, and be of no purpose to people like me. On the other hand such an option will have to be supported if present. > PS.: am I the only one, thinking that this thread should move to -chat? I think this thread has outgrown both the original author's intentions and mine. I just answered by instinct, I disagreed with some points, but as I said here I have no objection to an option in istall, but IMHO supporting it may be harder than what it's worth. -- Guido Falsi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 4 Sep 2008, at 9:49 AM, Jim Pingle wrote: My memory may be failing me, but there used to be a port called "instant workstaion" that accomplished quite a bit, and the installer would drop in X but asked for KDE or Gnome, but I don't recall when those choices went away. This is in fact what I remember too: one had a choice of Server or Workstation and a further choice of KDE or GNOME. I remember that when I saw the choice of KDE or GNOME I had no idea which I should choose because I knew nothing about them. I will re-explore these sysinstall options, and grabbing packages with FTP once I can figure out how to get some sort of networking going on my new laptop. Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 08:58:27AM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: > Okay, so how about for packages on the base CD: > > * cvsup-without-gui (I also always use this) Side note: You don't need this, especially since you're using -without-gui. There is a utility in the base system called csup(1) which supports the same command-line arguments, is written entirely in C / doesn't rely on ezm3/modula3. It behaves the same way, and speaks the CVSup protocol. -- | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 4 Sep 2008, at 9:42 AM, Randy Pratt wrote: 2 FTP Install from an FTP server We have a winner! I think this is what I may have overlooked: setting the source to FTP rather than to CD. I have always used the packages on the discs, and I have always downloaded just disc1, which used to include some of the packages being discussed, such as X. Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Dan Allen wrote: > On 4 Sep 2008, at 8:22 AM, Jim Pingle wrote: > Okay, so how about for packages on the base CD: > > * cvsup-without-gui (I also always use this) > * rsync > * perl As others have mentioned, there are plenty of uses for packages, even if I do not use them "out of the box" there are lots of people who do so, and need them because their networks are completely isolated, or the computers will not be networked and do not have an urgent need for security updates or the latest & greatest versions. > Then, since packages are always out-of-date, why not just skip the DVD > and use the internet with a couple of check boxes at the end of the > install, the way ports is treated now, that are just calls to pkg_add -r > for: > > * KDE > * GNOME > * Firefox > * ... whatever else are the most popular add-ons > > Fewer bits to be delivered via CD/DVD, and things are always up-to-date. My memory may be failing me, but there used to be a port called "instant workstaion" that accomplished quite a bit, and the installer would drop in X but asked for KDE or Gnome, but I don't recall when those choices went away. It appears the workstation port went away because it was broken and had no maintainer[1]. I have no idea what it might take to gather support for someone to resurrect the port and keep it updated. I would not mind having such an option again for desktops, but I would use it very rarely (only two, maybe three of my FreeBSD systems see desktop-type use). >> Also, is not Ubuntu a "downstream" release of Debian, much like >> FreeSBIE and >> PC-BSD are "downstream" of FreeBSD? If you want to compare apples to >> apples, >> you might investigate those choices a little closer. > > Touche. I had forgotten this. Perhaps this is why I was able to crash > Ubuntu so quickly yesterday... ;-) Perhaps. I use Ubuntu on a couple systems and it is pretty solid. I used it mainly because it was easy to turn on the eye candy bits in X to show people what other OS choices are out there. (Average Joes are really impressed with the wobbly windows and the way the cube switches multiple desktops) > I hope everyone realizes that I am not trying to "de-server" FreeBSD. I > just remember how daunting it was for me to get X setup when all I > wanted to use was a web browser when I was new to it all. Really? It's been easy for me lately, but I don't run on new hardware very often. On older systems it's been a matter of installing the packages/ports and running startx. The hard part was waiting for all the packages to install. I have had a few systems where I needed to tweak Xorg's config, but not too much. In my experience, it runs much better these days with default choices than it did in years past. I know others have had just the opposite experience, so apparently there is still work to be done. > The early BSD releases had a simple check box to add X support and it > all just worked. That was COOL. That is what I am hoping to get back > into BSD. See above, re: instant workstation port. I don't know if it was the same in the installer or not, but I seem to recall it having a similar effect. I also thought I remembered FreeBSD themes for KDE and Gnome that were used by default. There is a beasie theme for Gnome (x11-themes/beastie) but I have not used it so I don't know what it looks like. > I do not want to spill onto DVDs, remove the sources, get rid of command > prompts, or force systems to have X.org on them... I don't think spilling onto a DVD is a bad thing, as a choice. Then again, even Ubuntu has separate install CDs for desktop and server. You might want to talk to the developer of finstall[2], it might be in line with what you are envisioning. Jim 1: http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2008-April/173383.html 2: http://wiki.freebsd.org/finstall ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Guido, I agree completely with you and Jeremy. At Thu, 04 Sep 2008 08:51:00 +0200, Guido Falsi wrote: > > Jeremy Chadwick wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 03:01:48PM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: > >> On 3 Sep 2008, at 1:53 PM, Guido Falsi wrote: > >> > >>> If you just want na instant workstation, why you just don't try > >>> Freesbie or something like that? > >> Because I want something from the source -- from the main team -- and > >> not something downstream. > >> > >>> If I install FreeBSD on a PC I expect this installation to live there > >>> for some years. I can spend some hours/days installing and configuring > >>> what I really need. At least this is the way I see it. Maybe I'm > >>> misunderstanding you. > >> I too spend the time. I am thinking that for other people to want to > >> use FreeBSD they want something other than a command prompt. They at > >> least want a web browser out of the box. With the choices we have these days, I think they would be happier with a FreeBSD-based integrated distribution. > > I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but your assumption is > > ignorant. Why do you think FreeBSD is intended solely for desktop > > usage? It's not. > > > > I, for one, **only want a command prompt** out of the box. I **do not** > > want Xorg or any X-related garbage on my servers. > > I fully agree with this last statement. I choose freebsd for many > reasons, and this is one of those, I tried a few linux distributions, > and even slackware installs too much garbage if you're not looking > closely at it. Me, too. I'm typing this on an IBM ThinkPad R40e that once ran Xubuntu. Installation was a dream, and everything worked for a while. When the system became unstable after an upgrade, I couldn't untangle the different parts of the system since everything was dumped together under /etc/ and /usr/. I reinstalled FreeBSD, which I've used for over a decade. Now the machine is stable, and I can control which ports to install. More importantly, I can always get back to the operating system, and I know that it will work okay. I use FreeBSD for 99% of my desktop work (Xorg/fvwm2), but I would not want GUI code in the OS. People who want pre-installed software can use one of the new distributions that are getting good reviews. For me the clear distinction between the operating system and other software inspires great long-term confidence in FreeBSD. > And n the way to providing a useful desktop system out of the box, I > think no one can choose arbitrarily what to include and what not. Most > people would find WM+FF[23] too little, some other would want some > minimal gnome/kde, some others full blown gnome/kde (or other des for > example) who's bound to choose? Exactly. I even disagree with myself sometimes! A Web/mail/whatever server, an old laptop, and a fast, new workstation are different kinds of systems for different purposes. I really appreciate the separation of ports from the operating system. With the same OS it's easy to communicate about any FreeBSD system. With ports we have great flexibility, and we can back out of trouble (deinstall ports) and still keep the OS intact. That gives us solid reliability. > FreeBSD has always made a choice to be just an os, and a server oriented > one. There are downstream distributions bundling full blown systems, > and, as stated by others, the devel team has no time to spare, I think > it should concentrate on that, and leave the desktop work to others. I agree completely. As a long-term STABLE user, I'm happy to install ported and non-ported software that helps me do my work every day. People who port software and who develop integrated desktop systems contribute extremely valuable work, but that work is separate from the development and maintenance of FreeBSD. FreeBSD has been really rock-solid for so many years because dedicated people concentrate on the operating system. Their concentration on the OS enables others to contribute ports and special-purpose distributions with confidence. Greg Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 08:58:27 -0600 Dan Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Then, since packages are always out-of-date, why not just skip the DVD > and use the internet with a couple of check boxes at the end of the > install, the way ports is treated now, that are just calls to pkg_add - > r for: > > * KDE > * GNOME > * Firefox > * ... whatever else are the most popular add-ons > > Fewer bits to be delivered via CD/DVD, and things are always up-to-date. This functionality already exists in sysinstall. Go to ConfigureDo post-install configuration of FreeBSD Select: Packages Install pre-packaged software for FreeBSD Then select the installation media/method: 2 FTP Install from an FTP server Select ftp server: Main Siteftp.freebsd.org Sysinstall will retrieve the INDEX of all available packages. It might take a few minutes to display all the package options. Selecting a package to install will automatically install all needed dependencies. It might be necessary to set some options under: Options View/Set various installation options if you're trying to get package versions other than the particular FreeBSD version that you have (ie, LATEST). I don't remember the exact details for doing this since I no longer use (possibly obsolete) packages. Its been years since I used Sysinstall but I seem to remember that at the end of a new installation, it will ask if you want to install packages which is done as described above. HTH, Randy -- ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Hej Guido, On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 17:07:36 +0200, Guido Falsi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 08:58:27AM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: >> >> I hope everyone realizes that I am not trying to "de-server" FreeBSD. I >> just remember how daunting it was for me to get X setup when all I >> wanted to use was a web browser when I was new to it all. >> >> The early BSD releases had a simple check box to add X support and it >> all just worked. That was COOL. That is what I am hoping to get back >> into BSD. > > But setting X up now is perhaps even harder than what it used to be, and > common user expectation are higher. You can't get away by just > installing a vesa server...People would telle you it's slow, they would > expect the system to already accelerated drivers, if available. > Ah, I have to disagree. The last few times I installed a FreeBSD with xorg, I was really pleased how good xorg was in guessing my hardware in comparison to the olde days of XFree86. It was really, install xorg, run xorg -configure, take the config, install the nvidia driver from ports and nvidia settings too, then replace "nv" with "nvidia" in xorg.conf and with some clicks in the nvidia settings I was up and running dual screen. I thought to myself afterwards, Wow! that was easy. Used to be harder... > Sure Vesa Xserver is more than enough for firefoxBut newbies need to > understand they will have to manually tweak xorg.conf anyway if they > want a really working X setup. > And really, place a warning "You're using Vesa 'cause we couldn't find a correct video driver" and off you go. In fact, I would be surprised if the ubuntu folks would do it different. Sometimes (hello newer ATI) you're lost in xorg land with some strange graphic boards. Cheers, ./Marian PS.: am I the only one, thinking that this thread should move to -chat? ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Hi Dan, On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 08:45:00 -0600, Dan Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You may be interested to know, however, that some people ALSO use it > as a desktop system. ;-) > I second that! :) I for one really love FreeBSD on a server, 'cause it has a (to me) perfect setup of tools to use on a command line. On the other hand, guess what, since I'm administrating some FreeBSD boxes (and a whole lot more debian boxes too), my Desktop is a FreeBSD machine. > In the Standard Install there should be an option that says "Install > Firefox & Xorg". It should be an OPTIONAL CHECK BOX, not a mandatory > one, but it should allow a desktop scenario to be setup easily. > sounds good to me. > If the disks are near full, or need to be uniform across processors, > or whatever, then I am okay with not having all of X and Firefox on > disc1 IF there was a simple set of "pkg_add -r" commands that could > hidden behind a script or dialog which could fetch the necessary > software over the internet and set it up (along with .conf files so X > starts up reasonably well) so that a non-command line user could have > a good first time experience. > Ah well, create DVD images additionally to the standard iso images. > It was using Ubuntu that caused me to realize how far behind FreeBSD > is on the desktop side, and how, with a SMALL AMOUNT of work and > changes, it could make a big jump forward by this proposed simple > addition. Heck, if nothing else the installer could simply say in a > help screen, "if you want a web browser on your system, type 'pkg_add - > r firefox' on your system and edit blah blah .conf blah". As it > stands right now, however, there is very little in the install process > which helps a user get X up and going with a browser. > There is PC-BSD, FreeBSD based but aims on the desktop to achieve exactly what you said. I'm not sure wether FreeBSD needs to go that road too. Regards, Marian ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 08:48:46AM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: > > On 4 Sep 2008, at 3:42 AM, Oliver Peter wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 02:58:45PM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: > >> > >> On 3 Sep 2008, at 1:14 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: > >> > >>> Your patches to add support for the i4965 and your Marvell 88E80xx > >>> must have been stripped by the mailing list software. Can you > >>> please > >>> re-send them. > >> > >> I have not written patches, thus I did not send any patches. > > > > | > > `--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm > > > > Btw. my philosophy is if you would like to use your favourite open > > source > > operating system - which I guess is FreeBSD - on your new hardware, > > you > > should spend additional 15 minutes when you make the decision what > > hardware > > you are going to buy and check the specs with the "Hardware Notes" at > > http://www.freebsd.org/where.html. > > > > Complaining afterwards is easy but no one forces you to buy > > unsupported > > hardware. > > Point taken. A $500 Dell laptop, however, will be a popular machine > and sooner or later should be supported. Would be nice to have that, I agree with you. But popularity is not an argument: Those 'fat' ATI graphics cards are quite popular as well but as long as the manufactor does not hand out nicer documentation you wont have a nice kernel module to get hardware acceleration. -- Oliver PETER, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ# 113969174 "If it feels good, you're doing something wrong." -- Coach McTavish ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 08:58:27AM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: > > I hope everyone realizes that I am not trying to "de-server" FreeBSD. I > just remember how daunting it was for me to get X setup when all I > wanted to use was a web browser when I was new to it all. > > The early BSD releases had a simple check box to add X support and it > all just worked. That was COOL. That is what I am hoping to get back > into BSD. But setting X up now is perhaps even harder than what it used to be, and common user expectation are higher. You can't get away by just installing a vesa server...People would telle you it's slow, they would expect the system to already accelerated drivers, if available. Sure Vesa Xserver is more than enough for firefoxBut newbies need to understand they will have to manually tweak xorg.conf anyway if they want a really working X setup. -- Guido Falsi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 4 Sep 2008, at 8:22 AM, Jim Pingle wrote: The CD installs are great for me, and have worked well for years. Personally, I install, update to -STABLE from a local cvsup mirror, then use an updated ports tree or install packages remotely. The packages on CD are out of date practically from the moment they are placed there, so I rarely use them. The only package I regularly used was cvsup-without-gui, which has been replaced by csup in the base system. Okay, so how about for packages on the base CD: * cvsup-without-gui (I also always use this) * rsync * perl Then, since packages are always out-of-date, why not just skip the DVD and use the internet with a couple of check boxes at the end of the install, the way ports is treated now, that are just calls to pkg_add - r for: * KDE * GNOME * Firefox * ... whatever else are the most popular add-ons Fewer bits to be delivered via CD/DVD, and things are always up-to-date. Also, is not Ubuntu a "downstream" release of Debian, much like FreeSBIE and PC-BSD are "downstream" of FreeBSD? If you want to compare apples to apples, you might investigate those choices a little closer. Touche. I had forgotten this. Perhaps this is why I was able to crash Ubuntu so quickly yesterday... ;-) I hope everyone realizes that I am not trying to "de-server" FreeBSD. I just remember how daunting it was for me to get X setup when all I wanted to use was a web browser when I was new to it all. The early BSD releases had a simple check box to add X support and it all just worked. That was COOL. That is what I am hoping to get back into BSD. I do not want to spill onto DVDs, remove the sources, get rid of command prompts, or force systems to have X.org on them... Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 08:34:54AM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: > > On 4 Sep 2008, at 7:43 AM, Wesley Shields wrote: > > > No thanks. This means you have to have a working connection to > > install > > firefox via this method. Since not everyone will have that it is > > still > > necessary to bundle the firefox package on the media, bringing us > > right > > back to the very issue you are trying to solve. > > No. You do NOT get my point. Firefox is (almost) worthless without > an internet connection. It's whole purpose is to browse the > internet. Therefore, if you are going to use firefox, you by > definition have an internet connection, hence you have the ability to > get firefox through this same internet connection. (This assumes > fetch or wget or curl is around to get firefox.) Firefox is not worthless without an internet connection. It can browse websites on networks not connected to the internet just fine. You seem to use it mostly on the internet at large, but don't assume the rest of the world does. Pushing firefox off the media is a bad idea. I've had scenarios in the past where I needed to stand up a machine with a browser on a physically isolated network. Having firefox on the media was very helpful in this case. Another scenario involves documentation which comes in HTML form. Why should I need an internet connection to get firefox just to read the documentation off my hard drive. Sure, I could use something else which can render the HTML but maybe I want to use firefox. This whole idea is a non-starter IMO. Although the install media suits my needs just fine I'm not naive enough to think it suits everyones needs just fine. There are projects mentioned in this thread already which are attempting to make the installer better and/or move to a DVD to ease some of the space constraints. If anyone wants to work on the problems outlined in this thread I think efforts are better spent on the sysinstall replacement projects going on and moving to a DVD. -- WXS ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 4 Sep 2008, at 3:42 AM, Oliver Peter wrote: On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 02:58:45PM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: On 3 Sep 2008, at 1:14 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: Your patches to add support for the i4965 and your Marvell 88E80xx must have been stripped by the mailing list software. Can you please re-send them. I have not written patches, thus I did not send any patches. | `--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm Btw. my philosophy is if you would like to use your favourite open source operating system - which I guess is FreeBSD - on your new hardware, you should spend additional 15 minutes when you make the decision what hardware you are going to buy and check the specs with the "Hardware Notes" at http://www.freebsd.org/where.html. Complaining afterwards is easy but no one forces you to buy unsupported hardware. Point taken. A $500 Dell laptop, however, will be a popular machine and sooner or later should be supported. You know I thought you were being sarcastic, but then I was not sure... Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 4 Sep 2008, at 12:20 AM, Jeremy Chadwick wrote: I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but your assumption is ignorant. Why do you think FreeBSD is intended solely for desktop usage? It's not. I, for one, **only want a command prompt** out of the box. I **do not** want Xorg or any X-related garbage on my servers. Jeremy - read the whole thread first. My assumption is NOT ignorant. I know that most people want just a command prompt. I myself live in command prompt mode on FreeBSD most of the time as well. I completely agree with you that there are many times when I do not want X.org anywhere around. I get that many people consider FreeBSD a server OS. I often tell people about how Yahoo and other big sites run on it. You may be interested to know, however, that some people ALSO use it as a desktop system. ;-) This is not trying to force anyone to have Firefox or Xorg. This is about options in the FreeBSD installer that USED to allow the OPTION of having X setup for you. This is about OPTIONS to install the single most widely used kind of software (a web browser) on the system in a simple, straightforward way. In the Standard Install there should be an option that says "Install Firefox & Xorg". It should be an OPTIONAL CHECK BOX, not a mandatory one, but it should allow a desktop scenario to be setup easily. If the disks are near full, or need to be uniform across processors, or whatever, then I am okay with not having all of X and Firefox on disc1 IF there was a simple set of "pkg_add -r" commands that could hidden behind a script or dialog which could fetch the necessary software over the internet and set it up (along with .conf files so X starts up reasonably well) so that a non-command line user could have a good first time experience. It was using Ubuntu that caused me to realize how far behind FreeBSD is on the desktop side, and how, with a SMALL AMOUNT of work and changes, it could make a big jump forward by this proposed simple addition. Heck, if nothing else the installer could simply say in a help screen, "if you want a web browser on your system, type 'pkg_add - r firefox' on your system and edit blah blah .conf blah". As it stands right now, however, there is very little in the install process which helps a user get X up and going with a browser. Thanks to everyone else for their comments. Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 10:22:30AM -0400, Jim Pingle wrote: > Also, is not Ubuntu a "downstream" release of Debian, much like FreeSBIE and > PC-BSD are "downstream" of FreeBSD? Re: Ubuntu -- Yes, it is. -- | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Wesley Shields wrote: > On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 06:28:44PM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: >> Hey, these great comments bring up a different solution, which may be >> the way to go. >> >> It is simple: have a few of the common apps that are net-centric (like >> firefox) be simply calls to pkg_add -r in the installer. No ports >> databases, no packages on the discs. A few packages may be useful >> (like perl) to someone without net access, but many need the net to be >> useful. > > No thanks. This means you have to have a working connection to install > firefox via this method. Since not everyone will have that it is still > necessary to bundle the firefox package on the media, bringing us right > back to the very issue you are trying to solve. Could this not also be resolved another way? Most desktops these days have DVD drives. If someone wants a bootable desktop-targeted release with X, Firefox and such, why not make that a DVD instead of trying to shoehorn all of this into a CD? Most of the older machines with aging CD-ROM drives or without a DVD drive may not have the horsepower to run a live CD with X anyhow. My servers only have CD-ROM drives, but then again they wouldn't be using a desktop-oriented live CD with X either. :-) Sure, the download would be (much?) larger, but you would have a lot more room to work with. The CD installs are great for me, and have worked well for years. Personally, I install, update to -STABLE from a local cvsup mirror, then use an updated ports tree or install packages remotely. The packages on CD are out of date practically from the moment they are placed there, so I rarely use them. The only package I regularly used was cvsup-without-gui, which has been replaced by csup in the base system. Also, is not Ubuntu a "downstream" release of Debian, much like FreeSBIE and PC-BSD are "downstream" of FreeBSD? If you want to compare apples to apples, you might investigate those choices a little closer. Jim ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 4 Sep 2008, at 7:43 AM, Wesley Shields wrote: No thanks. This means you have to have a working connection to install firefox via this method. Since not everyone will have that it is still necessary to bundle the firefox package on the media, bringing us right back to the very issue you are trying to solve. No. You do NOT get my point. Firefox is (almost) worthless without an internet connection. It's whole purpose is to browse the internet. Therefore, if you are going to use firefox, you by definition have an internet connection, hence you have the ability to get firefox through this same internet connection. (This assumes fetch or wget or curl is around to get firefox.) Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Royce Williams wrote: Peter Jeremy wrote, on 9/4/2008 12:54 AM: 2) Traditionally, the ISO images have been sized to fit on 650MB CD-RWs. Maybe this should be revisited but during a release freeze is not the right time for that. Isn't there a little more room now by default? From the 7.0 release notes: The ISO images for FreeBSD are now sized for 700MB CDROM media. For most prior versions of FreeBSD, they assumed 650MB CDROM media. [MERGED] Royce First: Do you realise that there are old computers still in use that can't read more than 650MB cd media in case some sudden upgrade needed? Second: Why there is no rescue environment available on 1st cd? It is really lame to pop in second "livecd" (why such a name is beyound me- there is nothing live there...). I'd suggest to remove ports tree from first cd (we are using csup and portsnap anyway?) and move it to second- leaving more important features to first one. Andrei Kolu IT-Juht ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 06:28:44PM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: > > On 3 Sep 2008, at 5:54 PM, Brian wrote: > > > I always do the minimal install over the net. I got X working in 7- > > stable by doing the minimal install, then the following. > > > > pkg_add -r xorg > > pkg_add -r portupgrade > > portupgrade -NRP kde > > pkg_add -r tightvnc. > > On 3 Sep 2008, at 5:59 PM, Randy Pratt wrote: > > > The ports/packages are actually not part of FreeBSD but are third- > > party > > applications. I've often thought that the packages on the > > installation > > disks should really be split to a separate project which produces > > package disks. This would lessen the burden on the Release Engineers > > and perhaps the cycle time between releases. It should also be > > noted that the useful life of a package is limited and outdated very > > quickly. > > Hey, these great comments bring up a different solution, which may be > the way to go. > > It is simple: have a few of the common apps that are net-centric (like > firefox) be simply calls to pkg_add -r in the installer. No ports > databases, no packages on the discs. A few packages may be useful > (like perl) to someone without net access, but many need the net to be > useful. No thanks. This means you have to have a working connection to install firefox via this method. Since not everyone will have that it is still necessary to bundle the firefox package on the media, bringing us right back to the very issue you are trying to solve. -- WXS ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Peter Jeremy wrote, on 9/4/2008 12:54 AM: > 2) Traditionally, the ISO images have been sized to fit on 650MB CD-RWs. >Maybe this should be revisited but during a release freeze is not >the right time for that. Isn't there a little more room now by default? From the 7.0 release notes: The ISO images for FreeBSD are now sized for 700MB CDROM media. For most prior versions of FreeBSD, they assumed 650MB CDROM media. [MERGED] Royce -- Royce D. Williams - http://royce.ws/ The absence of alternatives clears the mind marvelously. -H. Kissinger ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Daniel O'Connor wrote: > On Thu, 4 Sep 2008, Vincent Hoffman wrote: > >> Actually FreeBSD does support a compressed (read only) filesystem, >> geom_uzip(4) This is used by freesbie if I remember rightly. >> However it does mean you cannot just mount and browse the install cd >> with the generic kernel, and I'd guess it bumps up the base system >> requirements. >> > > You could, because geom_uzip is a module :) > > That said you _would_ duplicate things because what is on the live disk > is not in a form suitable for pkg_add'ing to the installed system. > > Indeed, putting the already compressed package files in a compressed disk would be unlikely to save much space either. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Thu, 4 Sep 2008, Vincent Hoffman wrote: > Actually FreeBSD does support a compressed (read only) filesystem, > geom_uzip(4) This is used by freesbie if I remember rightly. > However it does mean you cannot just mount and browse the install cd > with the generic kernel, and I'd guess it bumps up the base system > requirements. You could, because geom_uzip is a module :) That said you _would_ duplicate things because what is on the live disk is not in a form suitable for pkg_add'ing to the installed system. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2008-Sep-03 15:53:30 -0600, Dan Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> I see. I was thinking of FreeBSD 7.0 whose disc1 is 509 MB in size, >> leaving almost 200 MB free for a standard 700 MB CD. >> > > I missed that the disc layous have been rearranged and disc1 is now > somewhat emptier than when I last looked. However, you've missed a > few points as well: > 1) Currently, the contents of each disk is the same on each architecture. >Changing this is possible but would be very confusing to users. >sparc64 appears to be the largest and disk1 is over 600MB. > 2) Traditionally, the ISO images have been sized to fit on 650MB CD-RWs. >Maybe this should be revisited but during a release freeze is not >the right time for that. > 3) It's desirable to leave some slack so that a slight size increase in >the final builds doesn't necessitate re-working the CD layouts. > > >> Ubuntu 8.04 has room for [the kitchen sink] >> > > For most architectures, disc1 includes a live filesystem. This is > very useful for recovery purposes. Since FreeBSD does not include > cloop or similar compressed FS support, this takes a fair amount of > space. And you've already pointed out that disc1 includes sources > (which you want to keep). > > Actually FreeBSD does support a compressed (read only) filesystem, geom_uzip(4) This is used by freesbie if I remember rightly. However it does mean you cannot just mount and browse the install cd with the generic kernel, and I'd guess it bumps up the base system requirements. Vnce >> Here is a quick list (not exhaustive or definitive) of the libraries >> that Firefox 3.0 requires, and their sizes in bytes: >> > > Note that you need to include the space needed by the packages for all > the FF3 dependencies, not just the shared libraries. > > >> These total 27696575 bytes or 26.4 MB. >> > > Including the full list of runtime dependencies, FF3 needs 120 packages, > totalling 89MB (already bzip'd) on i386. > > ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 02:58:45PM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: > > On 3 Sep 2008, at 1:14 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: > > > Your patches to add support for the i4965 and your Marvell 88E80xx > > must have been stripped by the mailing list software. Can you please > > re-send them. > > I have not written patches, thus I did not send any patches. | `--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm Btw. my philosophy is if you would like to use your favourite open source operating system - which I guess is FreeBSD - on your new hardware, you should spend additional 15 minutes when you make the decision what hardware you are going to buy and check the specs with the "Hardware Notes" at http://www.freebsd.org/where.html. Complaining afterwards is easy but no one forces you to buy unsupported hardware. -- Oliver PETER, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED], ICQ# 113969174 "If it feels good, you're doing something wrong." -- Coach McTavish ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 2008-Sep-03 15:53:30 -0600, Dan Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I see. I was thinking of FreeBSD 7.0 whose disc1 is 509 MB in size, >leaving almost 200 MB free for a standard 700 MB CD. I missed that the disc layous have been rearranged and disc1 is now somewhat emptier than when I last looked. However, you've missed a few points as well: 1) Currently, the contents of each disk is the same on each architecture. Changing this is possible but would be very confusing to users. sparc64 appears to be the largest and disk1 is over 600MB. 2) Traditionally, the ISO images have been sized to fit on 650MB CD-RWs. Maybe this should be revisited but during a release freeze is not the right time for that. 3) It's desirable to leave some slack so that a slight size increase in the final builds doesn't necessitate re-working the CD layouts. >Ubuntu 8.04 has room for [the kitchen sink] For most architectures, disc1 includes a live filesystem. This is very useful for recovery purposes. Since FreeBSD does not include cloop or similar compressed FS support, this takes a fair amount of space. And you've already pointed out that disc1 includes sources (which you want to keep). >Here is a quick list (not exhaustive or definitive) of the libraries >that Firefox 3.0 requires, and their sizes in bytes: Note that you need to include the space needed by the packages for all the FF3 dependencies, not just the shared libraries. >These total 27696575 bytes or 26.4 MB. Including the full list of runtime dependencies, FF3 needs 120 packages, totalling 89MB (already bzip'd) on i386. -- Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. pgpBlyRMOzsYq.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Jeremy Chadwick wrote: On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 03:01:48PM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: On 3 Sep 2008, at 1:53 PM, Guido Falsi wrote: If you just want na instant workstation, why you just don't try Freesbie or something like that? Because I want something from the source -- from the main team -- and not something downstream. If I install FreeBSD on a PC I expect this installation to live there for some years. I can spend some hours/days installing and configuring what I really need. At least this is the way I see it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I too spend the time. I am thinking that for other people to want to use FreeBSD they want something other than a command prompt. They at least want a web browser out of the box. I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but your assumption is ignorant. Why do you think FreeBSD is intended solely for desktop usage? It's not. I, for one, **only want a command prompt** out of the box. I **do not** want Xorg or any X-related garbage on my servers. I fully agree with this last statement. I choose freebsd for many reasons, and this is one of those, I tried a few linux distributions, and even slackware installs too much garbage if you're not looking closely at it. And n the way to providing a useful desktop system out of the box, I think no one can choose arbitrarily what to include and what not. Most people would find WM+FF[23] too little, some other would want some minimal gnome/kde, some others full blown gnome/kde (or other des for example) who's bound to choose? FreeBSD has always made a choice to be just an os, and a server oriented one. There are downstream distributions bundling full blown systems, and, as stated by others, the devel team has no time to spare, I think it should concentrate on that, and leave the desktop work to others. -- Guido Falsi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 03:01:48PM -0600, Dan Allen wrote: > > On 3 Sep 2008, at 1:53 PM, Guido Falsi wrote: > >> If you just want na instant workstation, why you just don't try >> Freesbie or something like that? > > Because I want something from the source -- from the main team -- and > not something downstream. > >> If I install FreeBSD on a PC I expect this installation to live there >> for some years. I can spend some hours/days installing and configuring >> what I really need. At least this is the way I see it. Maybe I'm >> misunderstanding you. > > I too spend the time. I am thinking that for other people to want to > use FreeBSD they want something other than a command prompt. They at > least want a web browser out of the box. I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but your assumption is ignorant. Why do you think FreeBSD is intended solely for desktop usage? It's not. I, for one, **only want a command prompt** out of the box. I **do not** want Xorg or any X-related garbage on my servers. > The Ubuntu install is very compelling. I am just wishing that FreeBSD > was AS compelling in its first install experience. At present it is > far, far behind. > > That does not stop ME from preferring FreeBSD, but it stops many other > people. I am in no way an "advocate" of operating systems, so despite me having freebsd.org mail address, do not think for a minute that what I'm about to tell you is biased in favour of FreeBSD. Use whatever operating system works best for you. If that's Linux, awesome! If that's FreeBSD, awesome! If that's Windows, awesome! Different people have different needs -- case in point, you want a simple and easy-to-install out-of-the-box desktop version of FreeBSD, while I want a no-cruft-like-X install server version of FreeBSD. FreeBSD caters to both. There's nothing stopping you from downloading disc1 and during the install choosing to install Firefox and X, which will accomplish what you need. You'll still be booted into a command prompt, but that's how UNIX is; FreeBSD is not Kubuntu. I think what you might be looking for is, believe it or not, PC-BSD. I believe you can install PC-BSD and get a working X desktop with a browser and all that jazz right out of the box. -- | Jeremy Chadwickjdc at parodius.com | | Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ | | UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, USA | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP: 4BD6C0CB | ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:01:48 -0600 Dan Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The Ubuntu install is very compelling. I am just wishing that > FreeBSD was AS compelling in its first install experience. At > present it is far, far behind. Well, do you really want all those people who can't even read to be FreeBSD users? (Not aiming at Ubuntu users here) Personally, I think that the FreeBSD learning curve is a good thing, it means that FreeBSD users wil know more about FreeBSD when they get it running. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Google for freesbie, or perhaps PC-BSD On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 9:36 AM, Dan Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > BACKGROUND: > > A few years ago one could get a FreeBSD CD and install X and get a decent > basic system from one CD. > > One can still do this with Ubuntu today as well. > > Why can't we have a small window manager like icewm along with Firefox 3.0+ > be among the packages on the first FreeBSD CD so a basic working system with > a web browser can be a default install? Is it that X.org is now too big? > > I have been a FreeBSD user/builder for more than a decade because of > /usr/src/make - complete sources and a beautiful build system, but I must > admit that Ubuntu has done a great job of modern hardware detection and > providing a nice useable system out of the box. I wish we could join both > worlds in a future BSD release. (I crashed Ubuntu 8.04 in the first day so > I still prefer BSD to Linux.) > > Also, and I am sure I am not the only one with one of these, my new $500 > Dell Inspiron 1525 is not supported well by BSD RELENG_7: the Intel 4965 > wireless and the Marvell 88E80xx Ethernet are both NOT supported so I have a > great new laptop which cannot connect to the outside world with BSD. :-( > Ubuntu supports these and lots more. > > SUMMARY: > > I would like to see FreeBSD 7.1 add to its disc1: > > 1) X.org > 2) icewm > 3) firefox-3.0 > 4) support for Intel 4965 wireless drivers > 5) support for Marvell 88E8040 ethernet driver > > Dan Allen > > ___ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" > ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Wed, 3 Sep 2008 17:01:31 -0600 Dan Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> mentioned: > Phillip Salzman wrote: > > An easy answer would be to put the web-browser and such the first > > disk, but > > I don't think it would solve anything. If it kept with those, > > FreeBSD would > > find itself just moving towards the same work being done at PC-BSD, > > wouldn't > > it? > > When I see almost 200 MB free on disc1 of 7.0, and I remember the > handy apps & pkgs which used to be on past releases of FreeBSD, I do > not see it as moving towards PC-BSD as much as I see it as going back > to what FreeBSD used to have just a few releases ago. > In truth, for workstations and laptops at least, most of us do want a > web browser. Not having a decent web browser out of the box in 2008 > after 15 years of web browser development gives BSD a really archaic > look and feel. We all know that BSD is the best, most solid OS out > there - but occasionally we need to do a bit of marketing, we need to > show our stuff to let others see that "we get it". > Dan > I don't think the the problem really is in including the web browser, or X11 or not. All of us have different preferences on which soft we want to have on the first CD. That is I won't probably want a web browser when installing the server, but php, ruby and nginx instead. I think, that the current set of packages for the first CD is reasonable enough. The real problem is that our installation program isn't flexible enough and, truly speaking, obsolete. There're several programs of preparing the new generation installation system for FreeBSD, and after it's finished we'll probably able to prepare target-oriented CD sets, e.g. one for server installs, one for workstations, etc. It should be also good enough to allow you easily install any software you want whatever way you prefer. -- Stanislav Sedov ST4096-RIPE pgpyw0ps4Sct8.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
| By Dan Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | [ 2008-09-03 23:06 +0200 ] > FreeBSD from the machine and installed Ubuntu 8.04. I therefore > cannot run "pciconf -l" at this moment in time, but I may get back > around to it. lspci ? Regards, Aragon ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Wed, 3 Sep 2008 16:43:45 -0600 Dan Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 3 Sep 2008, at 3:11 PM, Steven Hartland wrote: > > > - Original Message - From: "Dan Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > >> I too spend the time. I am thinking that for other people to want > >> to use FreeBSD they want something other than a command prompt. > >> They at least want a web browser out of the box. > > > > For some, but for others like ourselves here we really don't want all > > that bloat. One of the reasons we really like it is its perfect for > > server installs, no crap installed that you don't want :) > > Agreed, but if you go back to earlier versions of FreeBSD they gave > you an install option for just binaries, or binaries + sources, or > binaries + sources + X Windows. > > I am proposing something similar once again, but this time if would be > enough of X, a small window manager, and Firefox so a basic windowing > environment was able to be installed, from the CD, with a single > choice. I doubt many developers are really browsing the web all day > with lynx. If I understand correctly, you've described some problems with wireless and ethernet hardware on FreeBSD 7. Others have mentioned that it seems to work on FreeBSD 6. It might be worth setting up two partitions with one for 6 and the other for 7 so that you can work with the developers to resolve the problems on 7. As a desktop user, you may not even notice the differences between 6 and 7. I think this is probably worth the time to pursue since developers usually can't easily fix problems for hardware they don't have. The content of the installation disks has been discussed in the past but I don't remember anything conclusive coming out of it. I personally quit using packages around 3.x. It was too easy to introduce problems mixing packages and compiling ports so everything is now built from source and updated daily. The ports/packages are actually not part of FreeBSD but are third-party applications. I've often thought that the packages on the installation disks should really be split to a separate project which produces package disks. This would lessen the burden on the Release Engineers and perhaps the cycle time between releases. It should also be noted that the useful life of a package is limited and outdated very quickly. For my own taste, it would be a bit annoying to have any port/package installed by default. Randy -- ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 3 Sep 2008, at 5:54 PM, Brian wrote: I always do the minimal install over the net. I got X working in 7- stable by doing the minimal install, then the following. pkg_add -r xorg pkg_add -r portupgrade portupgrade -NRP kde pkg_add -r tightvnc. On 3 Sep 2008, at 5:59 PM, Randy Pratt wrote: The ports/packages are actually not part of FreeBSD but are third- party applications. I've often thought that the packages on the installation disks should really be split to a separate project which produces package disks. This would lessen the burden on the Release Engineers and perhaps the cycle time between releases. It should also be noted that the useful life of a package is limited and outdated very quickly. Hey, these great comments bring up a different solution, which may be the way to go. It is simple: have a few of the common apps that are net-centric (like firefox) be simply calls to pkg_add -r in the installer. No ports databases, no packages on the discs. A few packages may be useful (like perl) to someone without net access, but many need the net to be useful. I often forget about pkg_add -r because I build everything from source myself, but just a prompted dialog offering a few of the most common and popular apps like: * kde or gnome * firefox or xxx_browser * vnc * openoffice via pkg_add -r might be a very simple solution (no disk impact to speak of) and perhaps could even be determined by a look at which pkgs are installed the most from server logs (not dynamically, but just as a way of offering common pkgs). Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Dan Allen wrote: On 3 Sep 2008, at 1:53 PM, Guido Falsi wrote: If you just want na instant workstation, why you just don't try Freesbie or something like that? Because I want something from the source -- from the main team -- and not something downstream. What's wrong with "downstream"? Have the PCBSD or FreesBIE guys somehow altered things in an untrustworthy or unprofessional way? How are these releases any different than Ubuntu, or Fedora, or SuSE, or _every_single_linux_release_in_existance? Surely you don't get your linux kernel from kernel.org and then go assemble the rest of the OS from the source -- from the main team -- do you? Having derivative releases like FreeSBIE and PCBSD and others is an excellent way to make the release process scalable and able to meet the wants and needs to different users, yourself included. In fact, I think it's an utter waste of time for the FreeBSD release team to worry about packages on disc1 and whatnot. That needs to be done by teams who can focus on doing that task and doing it well. The FreeBSD releases need to become bare-bones references for others to build on an repackage and grow and improve. That's already started, but the efforts of those teams needs to be highlighted and given more, dare I say it, respect. They are the future that will bring FreeBSD to a wider audience. They need to be treated as first-class developers and members of the FreeBSD family; the "official" freebsd.org releases need to relegated to being just bare-bones bits that are there for others to bring to the masses. Go give these releases a try. They do an excellent job of packaging and installing exactly the stuff that you've mentioned that you want. Scott ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
I always do the minimal install over the net. I got X working in 7-stable by doing the minimal install, then the following. pkg_add -r xorg pkg_add -r portupgrade portupgrade -NRP kde pkg_add -r tightvnc. I then edited the vnc config file in my homedir, it was really pretty easy on a dual core AM2 system using the AMD64 version. Now, on my P3 Celeron, this was a LOT slower. Brian ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 3 Sep 2008, at 5:36 PM, Scott Long wrote: What's wrong with "downstream"? I can crash most Linux distributions in an hour. Your examples are just why I like FreeBSD and why I do not like or normally use Linux. I only grabbed Ubuntu recently because there is ZERO net access from FreeBSD on my new Dell laptop. Linux to me is too random. FreeBSD has always appealed to me because it has a higher quality bar, more structure to it (like /usr/src/ and its sweet buildworld), and it does not include every possible gadget in it. I know that my proposing the addition of Firefox to disc1 may be seen as "every possible gadget" but having a web browser is pretty important these days. Having derivative releases like FreeSBIE and PCBSD and others is an excellent way to make the release process scalable and able to meet the wants and needs to different users, yourself included. In fact, I think it's an utter waste of time for the FreeBSD release team to worry about packages on disc1 and whatnot. That needs to be done by teams who can focus on doing that task and doing it well. The FreeBSD releases need to become bare-bones references for others to build on an repackage and grow and improve. That's already started, but the efforts of those teams needs to be highlighted and given more, dare I say it, respect. They are the future that will bring FreeBSD to a wider audience. They need to be treated as first-class developers and members of the FreeBSD family; the "official" freebsd.org releases need to relegated to being just bare-bones bits that are there for others to bring to the masses. You have good arguments here. You state -- very correctly -- that derivative release teams need to be "treated as first-class developers and members of the FreeBSD family". But are they treated so? Can larger audiences of developers be entertained while maintaining FreeBSD's stability? FreeBSD has as one of its great strengths a small set of developers and a release process that seems to deliver a more reliable product than Linux, at least in my experience. The fewer people that mess with the bits, the more stability delivered. Obviously the other side of the coin is that if not enough people mess with the bits then not enough features and hardware support will exist and the product will be irrelevant. Finding the sweet spot is hard. If derivative release teams are modeled after FreeBSD core -- good checkin structure, a few solid contributors rather than teaming hordes of inexperienced programmers -- then perhaps that is the way to go. If they do not have the structure, process, and experience, then it should be done by the mainline team. For me, as long as ANY packages are shipped on disc1, then I think they should be the right ones, and my hunch is that there should be just a few packages and their dependencies: rsync, perl and firefox. Firefox of course will drag in a bunch of stuff (X.org,atk,gtk...). (Actually rsync should become part of the main distro. It is so incredibly useful, but that is just one man's opinion.) This is a good dialog to have. I do not know if this is the right list for it, and I certainly do not want to mess up 7.1. Perhaps none of this can be ironed out in time for 7.1 and it will have to wait for 7.2. That is fine. Whose job is it to decide on the packages for a release? I have spent a non-zero amount of time looking for specifications or design plans for releases and have been unable to find them. Thanks to everyone today for your comments! Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 3 Sep 2008, at 4:58 PM, Guido Falsi wrote: Also, FreeBSD is still a little download compared to other systems. I would not like to download a multiGB distribution when what I need is just base system + sources, to build everything up from there. I do not want to download a big multi GB distro either. If you however could see how much cool stuff Ubuntu has in their single CD, you would be very impressed. (See my earlier mail.) We can do much better. Dan PS - back in the BSD 4.0-5.0 timeframe rc.conf got setup by the installer for you so that you could get X up and going without much hassle at all. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Phillip Salzman wrote: An easy answer would be to put the web-browser and such the first disk, but I don't think it would solve anything. If it kept with those, FreeBSD would find itself just moving towards the same work being done at PC-BSD, wouldn't it? When I see almost 200 MB free on disc1 of 7.0, and I remember the handy apps & pkgs which used to be on past releases of FreeBSD, I do not see it as moving towards PC-BSD as much as I see it as going back to what FreeBSD used to have just a few releases ago. In truth, for workstations and laptops at least, most of us do want a web browser. Not having a decent web browser out of the box in 2008 after 15 years of web browser development gives BSD a really archaic look and feel. We all know that BSD is the best, most solid OS out there - but occasionally we need to do a bit of marketing, we need to show our stuff to let others see that "we get it". Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Dan Allen wrote: On 3 Sep 2008, at 3:11 PM, Steven Hartland wrote: - Original Message - From: "Dan Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I too spend the time. I am thinking that for other people to want to use FreeBSD they want something other than a command prompt. They at least want a web browser out of the box. For some, but for others like ourselves here we really don't want all that bloat. One of the reasons we really like it is its perfect for server installs, no crap installed that you don't want :) Agreed, but if you go back to earlier versions of FreeBSD they gave you an install option for just binaries, or binaries + sources, or binaries + sources + X Windows. Last time I installed from CD (I have made some manual installs from livefs lately because this gives me more options for disk layouts(gjournal/gmirror for example) ) there was an option to install X and other ports. Never used it though. I am proposing something similar once again, but this time if would be enough of X, a small window manager, and Firefox so a basic windowing environment was able to be installed, from the CD, with a single choice. I doubt many developers are really browsing the web all day with lynx. The choice is there I think, It just requires you to swap CDs. It's of little use to newbies though, you still need to customize rc.conf and other bits. Also, FreeBSD is still a little download compared to other systems. I would not like to download a multiGB distribution when what I need is just base system + sources, to build everything up from there. -- Guido Falsi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 3 Sep 2008, at 3:11 PM, Steven Hartland wrote: - Original Message - From: "Dan Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > I too spend the time. I am thinking that for other people to want to use FreeBSD they want something other than a command prompt. They at least want a web browser out of the box. For some, but for others like ourselves here we really don't want all that bloat. One of the reasons we really like it is its perfect for server installs, no crap installed that you don't want :) Agreed, but if you go back to earlier versions of FreeBSD they gave you an install option for just binaries, or binaries + sources, or binaries + sources + X Windows. I am proposing something similar once again, but this time if would be enough of X, a small window manager, and Firefox so a basic windowing environment was able to be installed, from the CD, with a single choice. I doubt many developers are really browsing the web all day with lynx. Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
I second that FreeBSD is a server OS, but do sympathize with what Dan has mentioned. Opening new audiences of course starts with a quick install on a desktop or laptop. An easy answer would be to put the web-browser and such the first disk, but I don't think it would solve anything. If it kept with those, FreeBSD would find itself just moving towards the same work being done at PC-BSD, wouldn't it? Phillip Salzman On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The Ubuntu install is very compelling. I am just wishing that FreeBSD > > was AS compelling in its first install experience. At present it is > > far, far behind. > > > > That does not stop ME from preferring FreeBSD, but it stops many other > > people. > > > FreeBSD is primarily a server oriented operating system, while ubuntu is > geared (from a development and design perspective) towards the desktop > market. > > This is the primary reason why you are experiencing this. > > > ~k > > > ___ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" > ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 3 Sep 2008, at 1:14 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: Disc1 is full. What do you suggest should be removed from disk1 to make space for the above? I see. I was thinking of FreeBSD 7.0 whose disc1 is 509 MB in size, leaving almost 200 MB free for a standard 700 MB CD. Q: Has FreeBSD 7.1 REALLY filled up 189 MB with bug fixes and new hardware support? Ubuntu 8.04 has room for the linux kernel, for GCC, for tons of packages including almost all of OpenOffice 2.2.1 (which is HUGE), GIMP, Firefox, X of course, and quite a few other things on their 700 MB CD, including support for lots of new hardware that BSD does not have. BSD has source code -- which I personally would rather have than GIMP, etc. -- but do the sources take up that much room? They take 70-80 MB, but the bulk of that is already included in the above 509 MB of 7.0 disc1. (BTW, having full sources as part of FreeBSD is in my opinion one of the coolest features of BSD so that should NEVER be compromised.) So, I where the BSD free space is going?? Here is a quick list (not exhaustive or definitive) of the libraries that Firefox 3.0 requires, and their sizes in bytes: 3969firefox 8332firefox-bin 1080753 libX11.so.6 9564libXcomposite.so.1 40524 libXcursor.so.1 9040libXdamage.so.1 64848 libXext.so.6 18716 libXfixes.so.3 37019 libXi.so.6 9279libXinerama.so.1 26618 libXrandr.so.2 35933 libXrender.so.1 132271 libatk-1.0.so.0 478869 libcairo.so.2 204002 libfontconfig.so.1 341460 libfreebl3.so 514577 libfreetype.so.9 603150 libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 102751 libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 760129 libglib-2.0.so 13540 libgmodule-2.0.so.0 251326 libgobject-2.0.so.0 3930035 libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0 592012 libmozjs.so 238383 libnspr4.so.1 1140648 libnss3.so 324468 libnssckbi.so 113912 libnssdbm3.so 86560 libnssutil3.so 262000 libpango-1.0.so.0 37947 libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 163539 libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 213877 libplc4.so.1 209648 libplds4.so.1 145260 libsmime3.so 210076 libsoftokn3.so 409876 libsqlite3.so 180320 libssl3.so 13296 libxpcom.so 14678048 libxul.so These total 27696575 bytes or 26.4 MB. Notice this includes some of X (but I am sure some of these libraries include other libraries that are not included in this total. This is not a full DAG analysis.) Firefox also links to libc, libz, libm and other common libs, but they are part of the base system so they are not on this list. Compressed using tar czpf (gzip) these files occupy 11003400 bytes or 10.5 MB. Compressed using tar cjpf (bzip) these files occupy 10124743 bytes or 9.7 MB! Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
RE: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
> The Ubuntu install is very compelling. I am just wishing that FreeBSD > was AS compelling in its first install experience. At present it is > far, far behind. > > That does not stop ME from preferring FreeBSD, but it stops many other > people. FreeBSD is primarily a server oriented operating system, while ubuntu is geared (from a development and design perspective) towards the desktop market. This is the primary reason why you are experiencing this. ~k ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
- Original Message - From: "Dan Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I too spend the time. I am thinking that for other people to want to use FreeBSD they want something other than a command prompt. They at least want a web browser out of the box. For some, but for others like ourselves here we really don't want all that bloat. One of the reasons we really like it is its perfect for server installs, no crap installed that you don't want :) Regards Steve This e.mail is private and confidential between Multiplay (UK) Ltd. and the person or entity to whom it is addressed. In the event of misdirection, the recipient is prohibited from using, copying, printing or otherwise disseminating it or any information contained in it. In the event of misdirection, illegible or incomplete transmission please telephone +44 845 868 1337 or return the E.mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Wed, 3 Sep 2008, Dan Allen wrote: Also, and I am sure I am not the only one with one of these, my new $500 Dell Inspiron 1525 is not supported well by BSD RELENG_7: the Intel 4965 wireless and the Marvell 88E80xx Ethernet are both NOT supported so I have a great new laptop which cannot connect to the outside world with BSD. :-( Ubuntu supports these and lots more. There is support for the Intel 4965 in HEAD, with the iwn(4) driver. I don't know how likely this is to be merged before 7.1, but I suspect if people test it and confirms that it works for them, it may be possible. As for the 88E80xx, it probably depends exaclty which chipset you are talking about. Several are already supported with the msk(4) driver, have you tried it? If that doesn't work, the output of "pciconf -l" will be necessary before there's any chance of helping. Gavn ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 3 Sep 2008, at 1:58 PM, Wesley Shields wrote: I installed the June snapshot of -current on my laptop and it supports my Intel 4965 just fine. Support for this card is out there and does work, just not in RELENG_7. On 3 Sep 2008, at 2:45 PM, Gavin Atkinson wrote: There is support for the Intel 4965 in HEAD, with the iwn(4) driver. Thanks guys for the info. Not having ANY wired or wireless support in FreeBSD for a very decent Dell laptop that is flying off of the shelves at $500, I deleted FreeBSD from the machine and installed Ubuntu 8.04. I therefore cannot run "pciconf -l" at this moment in time, but I may get back around to it. Stay tuned... maybe for 7.2. Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 3 Sep 2008, at 1:53 PM, Guido Falsi wrote: If you just want na instant workstation, why you just don't try Freesbie or something like that? Because I want something from the source -- from the main team -- and not something downstream. If I install FreeBSD on a PC I expect this installation to live there for some years. I can spend some hours/days installing and configuring what I really need. At least this is the way I see it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. I too spend the time. I am thinking that for other people to want to use FreeBSD they want something other than a command prompt. They at least want a web browser out of the box. The Ubuntu install is very compelling. I am just wishing that FreeBSD was AS compelling in its first install experience. At present it is far, far behind. That does not stop ME from preferring FreeBSD, but it stops many other people. Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 3 Sep 2008, at 1:14 PM, Peter Jeremy wrote: Your patches to add support for the i4965 and your Marvell 88E80xx must have been stripped by the mailing list software. Can you please re-send them. I have not written patches, thus I did not send any patches. Dan ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On Thu, Sep 04, 2008 at 05:14:55AM +1000, Peter Jeremy wrote: > On 2008-Sep-03 10:36:11 -0600, Dan Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Also, and I am sure I am not the only one with one of these, my new > >$500 Dell Inspiron 1525 is not supported well by BSD RELENG_7: the > >Intel 4965 wireless and the Marvell 88E80xx Ethernet are both NOT > >supported so I have a great new laptop which cannot connect to the > >outside world with BSD. :-( Ubuntu supports these and lots more. > > Your patches to add support for the i4965 and your Marvell 88E80xx > must have been stripped by the mailing list software. Can you please > re-send them. > > WiFi chip support is very hit-and-miss. Vendors won't release > programming information because of regulatory issues and this makes > supporting them very difficult. Have you tried using ndis? I installed the June snapshot of -current on my laptop and it supports my Intel 4965 just fine. Support for this card is out there and does work, just not in RELENG_7. -- WXS ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
Dan Allen wrote: BACKGROUND: A few years ago one could get a FreeBSD CD and install X and get a decent basic system from one CD. One can still do this with Ubuntu today as well. Why can't we have a small window manager like icewm along with Firefox 3.0+ be among the packages on the first FreeBSD CD so a basic working system with a web browser can be a default install? Is it that X.org is now too big? SUMMARY: I would like to see FreeBSD 7.1 add to its disc1: 1) X.org 2) icewm 3) firefox-3.0 4) support for Intel 4965 wireless drivers 5) support for Marvell 88E8040 ethernet driver If you just want na instant workstation, why you just don't try Freesbie or something like that? If I install FreeBSD on a PC I expect this installation to live there for some years. I can spend some hours/days installing and configuring what I really need. At least this is the way I see it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. -- Guido Falsi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD 7.1 Content
On 2008-Sep-03 10:36:11 -0600, Dan Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Also, and I am sure I am not the only one with one of these, my new >$500 Dell Inspiron 1525 is not supported well by BSD RELENG_7: the >Intel 4965 wireless and the Marvell 88E80xx Ethernet are both NOT >supported so I have a great new laptop which cannot connect to the >outside world with BSD. :-( Ubuntu supports these and lots more. Your patches to add support for the i4965 and your Marvell 88E80xx must have been stripped by the mailing list software. Can you please re-send them. WiFi chip support is very hit-and-miss. Vendors won't release programming information because of regulatory issues and this makes supporting them very difficult. Have you tried using ndis? A large number of Marvell 88E80xx chips are supported by msk(4). If yours isn't, you are going to need to provide more details on what chip you have. >I would like to see FreeBSD 7.1 add to its disc1: > >1) X.org >2) icewm >3) firefox-3.0 >4) support for Intel 4965 wireless drivers >5) support for Marvell 88E8040 ethernet driver Disc1 is full. What do you suggest should be removed from disk1 to make space for the above? -- Peter Jeremy Please excuse any delays as the result of my ISP's inability to implement an MTA that is either RFC2821-compliant or matches their claimed behaviour. pgp0pnQt3pGGi.pgp Description: PGP signature
