Re: [Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages

[Michael Brutman]

How about something very radical - cutting FreeDOS back to the bare
operating system, and just offering the other software as user-installed
downloads as it was originally packaged?

In ye olde days people purchased DOS, installed it, and then installed
their own software using the original installer and documentation.  Even
today when I install DOS or FreeDOS I do a minimal install and then add the
software that I want myself, using zip files or sometimes even the original
installation diskettes.  (Virtualized if I'm on a VM.)

FreeDOS is trying to be very ambitious by packaging and offering a lot of
3rd party software, but all of this software has its own look and feel and
most of it was not designed to be installed by an unified package
installer.  That's a lot of extra work, more complexity, and in some cases
a bewildering amount of choice for people who are installing it.  And it
looks like a hodgepodge of unrelated software in the end.

Look at the NET package for example; there are 31 packages there.  Some are
just packet drivers.  We're offering two different SNTP clients, at least
two different PING programs, several different browsers, and lots of other
duplication.  It's a mess.  FreeDOS really should either pick the best and
try to offer a coherent experience with that, or really just leave it to
the user to choose and not try to repackage anything.

Instead of repackaging 3rd party software to work with a FreeDOS package
installer, how about just running a curated repository of open source DOS
software?  That is effectively what is happening anyway, just with the
extra complexity of the repackaging.


Mike
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Re: [Freedos-devel] Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0

[Chelson a]

Unless something huge changed about freedos I think “1.4” should be the next 
version apposed to a jump to 2.0 and while its nice to update packages to the 
latest versions what is the problem developers are trying to fix? What is the 
roadmap?

Like its been a while since ive actually used freedos and while I have been 
working on a new version of Aura GUI here and there over the past few years it 
has always maintained a roadmap. The next version features a graphical sdk that 
can generate c code, read c code and can test your apps in widget and apps can 
access the watt32 tcp library.

New features?
The ability to "apt-get” packages should allow users to connect to the internet 
and download the packages & save space for the official distro. 

Something else to consider is for many older systems that have serial ports I 
think wifi modems (esp8266 modules etc) should become a standard.

An easy SDK, how will freedos bring new users in to keep developing for the 
platform?? A working djgpp (or whatever) environment from boot that can 
download sources and compile small applications.

dead seas is an its game which will be playable online on the “k-world” game 
service which includes DOS systems. K world is not being developed by me but 
aims to be like a “steam” for retro games that allows you to chat, download 
games etc..

For me freedos has not really developed past being a dos clone, many people 
make great contributions towards freedos but it feels like the scene is ageing 
and loosing momentum.

making freedos an online os with services, for education for coding… ludumdare 
kind of developing contests…etc make freedos a community 

 

> On 3 Mar 2022, at 4:13 pm, Jim Hall  wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 4:16 PM Jim Hall  wrote:
> [..]
>> I'm sure we'll want to discuss "1.4" or "2.0" or whatever version
>> comes after 1.3. (I can start a new conversation next week to talk
>> about that.)
> 
> 
> Now that FreeDOS 1.3 has been out for a little while, I wanted to
> start thinking about what comes next. Let's use this thread to discuss
> it.
> 
> What would you like to see changed or added (or removed) in the next
> distribution?
> 
> My top three ideas:
> 
> 
> 1. Move to a "rolling release"
> 
> It's taken several years* to release a new version of FreeDOS. Yes,
> DOS is pretty stable, so we don't need a new distribution very often
> anyway. But for many folks, the new official distribution is the only
> way they get the updated tools (most people don't download individual
> tools to update a running FreeDOS system.)
> 
> *Not counting Release Candidates, the last few releases were:
> 1.0 (2006) - 1.1 (2012) - 1.2 (2016) - 1.3 (2022)
> 
> I think it would be interesting to set up a system that builds a new
> FreeDOS "test" distribution whenever we update packages on the FreeDOS
> Files Archive at Ibiblio. That doesn't need to be a new build every
> night, but maybe every month.
> 
> I think these distributions would come in only two versions: a "full"
> FreeDOS that looks like the LiveCD (see also #3 below) and a "mini"
> FreeDOS that contains just the FreeDOS "Base" packages, without source
> code. (The "mini" should be very tiny, and basically the same as a
> "floppy" FreeDOS install .. I guess "floppy" is a third distro
> version, but I think it could be derived from the "mini.")
> 
> Folks can try out the new "test" distribution and always be on the
> latest version. When things are stable, we can choose a "snapshot"
> that works well, and make that the next official distribution. That
> might happen on some interval (every 6 months? 12 months?).
> 
> 
> 2. Simplify FreeDOS
> 
> The FreeDOS distribution has grown. We've added a bunch of packages
> over the years, and FreeDOS has become quite large. We added the
> BonusCD (634MB) because we couldn't fit everything on the LiveCD
> (401MB).
> 
> Over time, we added some things because they were useful at the time,
> but we added others because they were a neat thing to have. Are these
> useful in 2022? I think we should re-evaluate what's in FreeDOS, and
> trim down what we include. DOS should not be that big.
> 
> For example: I think the Unix-like utilities should go. I thought the
> Unix-like tools might generate interest from new developers, but I
> think the Unix-like tools just confuse things and make FreeDOS look
> like a "mini Linux." Let's just be DOS.
> 
> I think we can also remove some packages from Editors, Archivers, and
> Utilities. We might remove all of the Graphical Desktops, since these
> are of limited usefulness and not maintained anyway.
> 
> What packages to keep and remove is probably a larger discussion that
> we could move into a dedicated thread.
> 
> The full list of packages (LiveCD and BonusCD) is in the FreeDOS 1.3
> report document:
> https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.3/official/report.html
> 
> 
> 3. Make LiveCD the default
> 
> We know from the 2021 user survey** that a 

[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages - Utilities (util)

[Jim Hall]

This is the discussion thread for what packages we might drop in the
next distribution of FreeDOS. See the other "parent" discussion thread
and the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0" thread for context.


These are the Utilities (util) packages we included in FreeDOS 1.3.
This list is pulled from the first column of the FreeDOS 1.3 package
report, linked from the "Downloads" page on the website. Refer to the
full report if you need more details.

There's a lot here, and some are on the LiveCD and others are on the
BonusCD. Going back even to our earliest Beta distributions in the
late 1990s and early 2000s, I think "Utils" became a kind of "Misc"
for packages that didn't really fit into the other package groups.

   aefdisk ( 77.9 KiB )
   ambread ( 33.9 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   ansimat ( 1006 KiB , FULL )
   b64 ( 24.2 KiB , FULL )
   bmp2png ( 191.6 KiB , FULL )
   bootfix ( 25.2 KiB , FULL )
   bsum ( 7.3 KiB , FULL )
   callver ( 6.5 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   cdrom2ui ( 14.6 KiB , FULL )
   clamav ( 6.8 MiB )
   clamdb ( 22.7 MiB )
   cpied ( 93.5 KiB , FULL )
   cwsdpmi ( 159.4 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   daa2iso ( 99.9 KiB )
   dialog ( 702.1 KiB , FULL )
   dog ( 176.8 KiB , FULL )
   dos32a ( 362.1 KiB , FULL )
   dosfsck ( 140.4 KiB , FULL )
   dosutil ( 288.9 KiB , FULL )
   dzemm ( 29.7 KiB )
   edict ( 47 KiB , FULL )
   fdbanner ( 7.1 KiB )
   fdinst ( 43.8 KiB )
   fdisrc ( 141.1 KiB )
   fdnpkg ( 802.5 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   fdshield ( 45.2 KiB )
   finddisk ( 6 KiB , FULL )
   flashrom ( 588.9 KiB )
   foxcalc ( 678.7 KiB , FULL )
   foxtype ( 434.5 KiB , FULL )
   gifsicle ( 880.8 KiB )
   gnuchcp ( 12.2 KiB , FULL )
   gnufonts ( 92.6 KiB , FULL )
   hexcomp ( 85.8 KiB , FULL )
   hip ( 508.5 KiB )
   listpci ( 85.3 KiB )
   listvesa ( 18.1 KiB )
   localcfg ( 22 KiB , FULL )
   localize ( 19.6 KiB , FULL )
   memteste ( 34.2 KiB , FULL )
   ospimg ( 127.8 KiB , FULL )
   part ( 169 KiB , FULL )
   password ( 20.9 KiB )
   pbox ( 132.5 KiB )
   pcisleep ( 20.9 KiB , FULL )
   pdtree ( 133.3 KiB )
   pg ( 64.5 KiB , FULL )
   pkgtools ( 144.6 KiB , FULL )
   pngcrush ( 635.1 KiB )
   raread ( 15.7 KiB )
   rawrite ( 15.6 KiB )
   rcal ( 90.4 KiB , FULL )
   search ( 25.2 KiB , FULL )
   setlock ( 5 KiB , FULL )
   slowdown ( 154.5 KiB , FULL )
   stamp ( 40.6 KiB , FULL )
   switchar ( 11 KiB , FULL )
   testdisk ( 2.7 MiB , FULL )
   topspin ( 39.4 KiB , FULL )
   tp7p5fix ( 27.1 KiB , FULL )
   unrtf ( 1883.6 KiB )
   utf8tocp ( 20.6 KiB , FULL )
   v8power ( 243.7 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   wcd ( 921.1 KiB , FULL )
   wde ( 90.6 KiB , FULL )
   whichfat ( 5.8 KiB , FULL )
   wptail ( 274.4 KiB , FULL )
   xdel ( 35.7 KiB , FULL )
   xfdisk ( 176.9 KiB )
   zdir ( 135.1 KiB )
   zerofill ( 13.1 KiB , FULL )


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[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages - Unix Like Tools (unix)

[Jim Hall]

This is the discussion thread for what packages we might drop in the
next distribution of FreeDOS. See the other "parent" discussion thread
and the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0" thread for context.


These are the Unix Like Tools (unix) packages we included in FreeDOS
1.3. This list is pulled from the first column of the FreeDOS 1.3
package report, linked from the "Downloads" page on the website. Refer
to the full report if you need more details.

As I mentioned in the other thread, I'm not sure these are really useful in DOS:

   cal ( 9.4 KiB , FULL )
   du ( 12.5 KiB , FULL )
   gnubc ( 183.2 KiB , FULL )
   gnused ( 2.2 MiB , FULL )
   grep ( 222.9 KiB , FULL )
   head ( 21.7 KiB , FULL )
   less ( 298.7 KiB , FULL )
   md5sum ( 139.1 KiB , FULL )
   minibox ( 376.8 KiB )
   nro ( 42.2 KiB , FULL )
   sleep ( 21 KiB , FULL )
   tee ( 58.6 KiB , FULL )
   touch ( 41.8 KiB , FULL )
   trch ( 74.3 KiB , FULL )
   uptimec ( 11.7 KiB , FULL )
   which ( 32.2 KiB , FULL )
   xgrep ( 27.5 KiB , FULL )


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[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages - Sound Tools (sound)

[Jim Hall]

This is the discussion thread for what packages we might drop in the
next distribution of FreeDOS. See the other "parent" discussion thread
and the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0" thread for context.


These are the Sound Tools (sound) packages we included in FreeDOS 1.3.
This list is pulled from the first column of the FreeDOS 1.3 package
report, linked from the "Downloads" page on the website. Refer to the
full report if you need more details.

bladeenc and lame are on the BonusCD, the others are part of the LiveCD:

   adplay ( 342.2 KiB , FULL )
   bladeenc ( 90.9 KiB )
   cdp ( 68 KiB , FULL )
   dosmid ( 271.1 KiB , FULL )
   lame ( 1613.4 KiB )
   mplayer ( 24.9 MiB , FULL )
   opencp ( 1931.5 KiB , FULL )


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[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages - Networking (net)

[Jim Hall]

This is the discussion thread for what packages we might drop in the
next distribution of FreeDOS. See the other "parent" discussion thread
and the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0" thread for context.


These are the Networking (net) packages we included in FreeDOS 1.3.
This list is pulled from the first column of the FreeDOS 1.3 package
report, linked from the "Downloads" page on the website. Refer to the
full report if you need more details.

Networking made a return in the FreeDOS 1.3 full distribution. The
"get connected to a network" packages are included on the LiveCD, but
the others are on the BonusCD:

   arachne ( 4.7 MiB )
   crynwr ( 2.6 MiB )
   curl ( 6.8 MiB , FULL )
   dillo ( 8.5 MiB )
   dwol ( 8.7 KiB )
   e1000pkt ( 52.6 KiB )
   e100pkt ( 48.2 KiB )
   etherdfs ( 58.5 KiB )
   ethtools ( 187.7 KiB )
   fdnet ( 816.1 KiB , FULL )
   gopherus ( 1982.2 KiB )
   htget ( 2.5 MiB )
   links ( 13.1 MiB )
   lsppp ( 99.4 KiB )
   lynx ( 7.5 MiB )
   m2wat ( 18.8 KiB )
   mskermit ( 1236.2 KiB )
   mtcp ( 1876.1 KiB , FULL )
   newsnuz ( 54.5 KiB )
   ntool ( 150.8 KiB )
   picosntp ( 182.3 KiB )
   picotcp ( 593.8 KiB )
   ping ( 635.2 KiB )
   rsync ( 1083.5 KiB )
   ssh2dos ( 1682.9 KiB )
   sshdos ( 1051.5 KiB )
   terminal ( 56 KiB , FULL )
   vmsmount ( 140.3 KiB )
   vncview ( 533.6 KiB )
   wattcp ( 149.8 KiB )
   wget ( 2.4 MiB , FULL )


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[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages - Graphical Desktops (gui)

[Jim Hall]

This is the discussion thread for what packages we might drop in the
next distribution of FreeDOS. See the other "parent" discussion thread
and the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0" thread for context.


These are the Graphical Desktops (gui) packages we included in FreeDOS
1.3. This list is pulled from the first column of the FreeDOS 1.3
package report, linked from the "Downloads" page on the website. Refer
to the full report if you need more details.

These are only provided on the BonusCD:

   opengem ( 19.2 MiB )
   ozonegui ( 2.4 MiB )
   seal ( 3.1 MiB )


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[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages - Games (games)

[Jim Hall]

This is the discussion thread for what packages we might drop in the
next distribution of FreeDOS. See the other "parent" discussion thread
and the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0" thread for context.


These are the Games (games) packages we included in FreeDOS 1.3. This
list is pulled from the first column of the FreeDOS 1.3 package
report, linked from the "Downloads" page on the website. Refer to the
full report if you need more details.

These packages are included on both the LiveCD and BonusCD:

   blkdrop ( 110 KiB , FULL )
   bolitare ( 1648.7 KiB , FULL )
   boom ( 7.7 MiB , FULL )
   dosdef ( 21 KiB , FULL )
   eliza ( 15.8 KiB , FULL )
   empong ( 233.8 KiB , FULL )
   ev4de ( 113.4 KiB , FULL )
   ewsnake ( 199.1 KiB , FULL )
   flpybird ( 2023.6 KiB , FULL )
   fmines ( 7.8 MiB , FULL )
   freedoom ( 26.4 MiB , FULL )
   gnuchess ( 578.4 KiB , FULL )
   hangman ( 79.6 KiB , FULL )
   ivan ( 2.1 MiB , FULL )
   kraptor ( 10 MiB , FULL )
   liquiwar ( 6.6 MiB , FULL )
   mirmagic ( 1397.9 KiB , FULL )
   mistral ( 8.2 MiB , FULL )
   nethack ( 4.7 MiB , FULL )
   nge_nibb ( 166.5 KiB , FULL )
   noudar ( 4.6 MiB , FULL )
   qtetris ( 2.8 MiB , FULL )
   sayswho ( 87.4 KiB , FULL )
   senet ( 58.3 KiB , FULL )
   smiley ( 53.1 KiB , FULL )
   sudoku86 ( 239.4 KiB , FULL )
   vertigo ( 3.3 MiB , FULL )
   vitetris ( 349.9 KiB , FULL )
   wing ( 1895.2 KiB , FULL )
   zmiy ( 33 KiB , FULL )


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[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages - Editors (edit)

[Jim Hall]

This is the discussion thread for what packages we might drop in the
next distribution of FreeDOS. See the other "parent" discussion thread
and the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0" thread for context.


These are the Editors (edit) packages we included in FreeDOS 1.3. This
list is pulled from the first column of the FreeDOS 1.3 package
report, linked from the "Downloads" page on the website. Refer to the
full report if you need more details.

I'm sure everyone has a favorite editor, so this one will be an
interesting discussion. Let's be sure to keep it respectful.

   biew ( 1581.7 KiB , FULL )
   blocek ( 3.9 MiB , FULL )
   doshexed ( 48.3 KiB , FULL )
   e3 ( 204.9 KiB , FULL )
   elvis ( 2.5 MiB , FULL )
   fed ( 269.6 KiB , FULL )
   freemacs ( 268.6 KiB , FULL )
   mbedit ( 532.6 KiB , FULL )
   mined ( 7.6 MiB , FULL )
   msedit ( 152.9 KiB , FULL )
   ospedit ( 1073.1 KiB , FULL )
   pico ( 413.7 KiB , FULL )
   setedit ( 5.3 MiB , FULL )
   tde ( 964.8 KiB , FULL )
   uhex ( 36.5 KiB , FULL )
   vim ( 11.7 MiB , FULL )


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[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages - Device Drivers (drivers)

[Jim Hall]

This is the discussion thread for what packages we might drop in the
next distribution of FreeDOS. See the other "parent" discussion thread
and the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0" thread for context.


These are the Device Drivers (drivers) packages we included in FreeDOS
1.3. This list is pulled from the first column of the FreeDOS 1.3
package report, linked from the "Downloads" page on the website. Refer
to the full report if you need more details.

   cdrcache ( 59.3 KiB , FULL )
   doslfn ( 367.4 KiB , FULL )
   eltorito ( 4.1 KiB )
   gcdrom ( 84.7 KiB )
   himemsx ( 35.9 KiB )
   hiram ( 86.8 KiB , FULL )
   lfndos ( 141.1 KiB , FULL )
   lptdrv ( 39.8 KiB , FULL )
   ntfs ( 565.1 KiB , FULL )
   rdisk ( 19.8 KiB )
   shareext ( 32.7 KiB , FULL )
   shsufdrv ( 100.5 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   spool ( 20.4 KiB , FULL )
   srdisk ( 218.9 KiB , FULL )
   udvd2 ( 34.7 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   uhdd ( 40.9 KiB , FULL )
   uide ( 56.9 KiB )
   usbdos ( 2.1 MiB , FULL )
   xkeyb ( 173.6 KiB , FULL )


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[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages - Development (devel)

[Jim Hall]

This is the discussion thread for what packages we might drop in the
next distribution of FreeDOS. See the other "parent" discussion thread
and the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0" thread for context.


These are the Development (devel) packages we included in FreeDOS 1.3.
This list is pulled from the first column of the FreeDOS 1.3 package
report, linked from the "Downloads" page on the website. Refer to the
full report if you need more details.

For example, most of these are only on the Bonus CD. Development tools
are big, but an important part of a developed-facing distribution. But
do we need all of these in the next distribution? Which ones are not
really used?

   bcc ( 1174.5 KiB )
   bwbasic ( 740.4 KiB )
   cpp2ccmt ( 21.7 KiB )
   djgpp_bn ( 5.1 MiB )
   djgpp_bs ( 415.3 KiB )
   djgpp_db ( 4.8 MiB )
   djgpp_fq ( 667 KiB )
   djgpp_fx ( 191.9 KiB )
   djgpp_gc ( 11.7 MiB )
   djgpp_gp ( 8.6 MiB )
   djgpp_mk ( 270.8 KiB )
   djgpp_ob ( 10.9 MiB )
   djgpp_rh ( 6 MiB )
   djgpp_tx ( 1066.9 KiB )
   djgpp ( 1512.6 KiB )
   dojs ( 40.8 MiB )
   euphoria ( 3.3 MiB )
   fasm ( 471.3 KiB )
   fbc_help ( 3.1 MiB )
   fbc ( 17.4 MiB )
   fpc ( 33.8 MiB )
   i16budoc ( 778.7 KiB )
   i16butil ( 10.3 MiB )
   i16elklc ( 2.8 MiB )
   i16gcc ( 9.2 MiB )
   i16gcdoc ( 1631.9 KiB )
   i16lbi86 ( 488.7 KiB )
   i16newli ( 30.1 MiB )
   i16nlelk ( 46.6 KiB )
   i16src ( 1158.7 KiB )
   insight ( 252 KiB )
   jwasm ( 1780.8 KiB )
   kittenc ( 67.5 KiB )
   lua ( 865.6 KiB )
   msa ( 67.3 KiB )
   nasm ( 4 MiB )
   perl ( 26.3 MiB )
   regina ( 4.3 MiB )
   runtime ( 29.5 KiB )
   suppls ( 1108.9 KiB )
   tinyasm ( 178.4 KiB )
   upx ( 2.4 MiB )
   watcomc ( 30.3 MiB )
   watcomf ( 22.9 MiB )


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[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages - Boot Tools (boot)

[Jim Hall]

This is the discussion thread for what packages we might drop in the
next distribution of FreeDOS. See the other "parent" discussion thread
and the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0" thread for context.


These are the Boot Tools (boot) packages we included in FreeDOS 1.3.
This list is pulled from the first column of the FreeDOS 1.3 package
report, linked from the "Downloads" page on the website. Refer to the
full report if you need more details.

For example, only syslnx is included on the LiveCD. The romdsk and
romos packages are on the BonusCD.

   romdsk ( 161 KiB )
   romos ( 371.8 KiB )
   syslnx ( 7.4 MiB )


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[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages - Archivers (archiver)

[Jim Hall]

This is the discussion thread for what packages we might drop in the
next distribution of FreeDOS. See the other "parent" discussion thread
and the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0" thread for context.


These are the Archivers (archiver) packages we included in FreeDOS
1.3. This list is pulled from the first column of the FreeDOS 1.3
package report, linked from the "Downloads" page on the website. Refer
to the full report if you need more details.

For example, some of these Archivers packages are only on the BonusCD
because they are not often used.

   7zdec ( 105 KiB , FULL )
   arj ( 621 KiB )
   bz2 ( 1027.1 KiB , FULL )
   cabext ( 415.6 KiB )
   gzip ( 327.2 KiB , FULL )
   lpq1 ( 55.6 KiB )
   lzip ( 294 KiB )
   lzma ( 503 KiB )
   lzop ( 268.1 KiB )
   p7zip ( 8 MiB , FULL )
   slicer ( 171.4 KiB )
   tar ( 203 KiB , FULL )
   unzip ( 1637.1 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   zip ( 1681.6 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   zoo ( 276.6 KiB )


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[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages - Applications (apps)

[Jim Hall]

This is the discussion thread for what packages we might drop in the
next distribution of FreeDOS. See the other "parent" discussion thread
and the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0" thread for context.


These are the Applications (apps) packages we included in FreeDOS 1.3.
This list is pulled from the first column of the FreeDOS 1.3 package
report, linked from the "Downloads" page on the website. Refer to the
full report if you need more details.

For example, note that sqlite is only included on the BonusCD.

   dn2 ( 2.7 MiB , FULL )
   doszip ( 3.9 MiB , FULL )
   fdimples ( 132.1 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   fdshell ( 208 KiB , FULL )
   fdtui ( 497 KiB , FULL )
   imgedit ( 181.3 KiB , FULL )
   pgme ( 882.6 KiB , FULL )
   sqlite ( 3.8 MiB )


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[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages - FreeDOS Base (base)

[Jim Hall]

This is the discussion thread for what packages we might drop in the
next distribution of FreeDOS. See the other "parent" discussion thread
and the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0" thread for context.


These are the FreeDOS Base (base) packages we included in FreeDOS 1.3.
This list is pulled from the first column of the FreeDOS 1.3 package
report, linked from the "Downloads" page on the website. Refer to the
full report if you need more details.

   ambhelp ( 999.7 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   append ( 41.8 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   assign ( 55.1 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   attrib ( 25.8 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   chkdsk ( 421.8 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   choice ( 44.2 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   comp ( 15.5 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   cpidos ( 132.4 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   ctmouse ( 269.4 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   debug ( 192.4 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   defrag ( 696.1 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   deltree ( 39 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   devload ( 80 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   diskcomp ( 25.6 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   diskcopy ( 202.5 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   display ( 76.2 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   edit ( 130.7 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   edlin ( 333 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   exe2bin ( 33 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   fc ( 72.2 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   fdapm ( 65.5 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   fdhelper ( 24.4 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   fdisk ( 227.4 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   fdxms286 ( 45.9 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   fdxms ( 55.7 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   find ( 98.5 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   format ( 140 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   freecom ( 2.7 MiB , BASE, FULL )
   graphics ( 83.3 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   himemx ( 41 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   htmlhelp ( 2.2 MiB , FULL )
   jemm ( 297.7 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   kernel ( 754.5 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   keyb_lay ( 212.4 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   keyb ( 56.2 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   label ( 69.6 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   lbacache ( 146.3 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   mem ( 103.5 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   mirror ( 34.5 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   mkeyb ( 78.7 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   mode ( 78.8 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   more ( 56.2 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   move ( 67.8 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   nansi ( 63.5 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   nlsfunc ( 30.1 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   print ( 24.7 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   recover ( 335.8 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   replace ( 29.4 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   samcfg ( 79.4 KiB , FULL )
   share ( 13.9 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   shsucdx ( 65.2 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   sort ( 34.2 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   swsubst ( 116.9 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   tree ( 74.8 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   undelete ( 70 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   unformat ( 30 KiB , BASE, FULL )
   xcopy ( 67.1 KiB , BASE, FULL )


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[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages

[Jim Hall]

I wanted to start a thread to discuss packages in the *next* FreeDOS
distribution. For now, I'll call this "FreeDOS Next" for lack of a
better label. This could be "FreeDOS 1.4" or "FreeDOS 2.0" but we'll
save the "label" discussion for another time.

To frame the discussion, in the "Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0"
discussion thread I suggested this:

>> Simplify FreeDOS.
>>
>> There's a lot in the FreeDOS distribution. Do we need all the packages
>> that we include in FreeDOS 1.3, when we release FreeDOS 1.4 (or 2.0,
>> whatever we call it)?
>>
>> In my original post, I suggested we might remove the Unix packages. It
>> was a good experiment, but I think folks find it confusing. Also might
>> trim the editors, archivers, and utilities. Also suggested removing
>> all of the graphical desktops, since these are limited in what they do
>> (some are incomplete) and no one is working to fix the bugs.
>>
>> I also suggested splitting the distribution into "full" (containing
>> everything, basically the LiveCD) and "mini" (containing just Base
>> packages). This helps folks who just want to install a basic FreeDOS
>> system, without the other packages.
>>
>> By trimming the packages, do we need a BonusCD?
>>
>> Deciding what packages to keep/remove is a larger discussion that we
>> should have in a different thread. I'll start up new threads for each
>> "package group" in hopes that this will keep discussion on-topic and
>> manageable.


So I'll start up a different discussion thread for each "package
group." I'm hoping that different threads will help focus the
discussion. Please try to keep discussion on-topic for each thread
(for example, don't discuss editors in the "graphical desktop"
thread).



I'll start these 13 discussion threads: (list is pulled from the
FreeDOS 1.3 package report, linked on the "Download" page on the
website)

1. FreeDOS Base (base)
2. Applications (apps)
3. Archivers (archiver)
4. Boot Tools (boot)
5. Development (devel)
6. Device Drivers (drivers)
7. Editors (edit)
8. Games (games)
9. Graphical Desktops (gui)
10. Networking (net)
11. Sound Tools (sound)
12. Unix Like Tools (unix)
13. Utilities (util)


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0

[Jim Hall]

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 9:10 PM Michael Brutman  wrote:
>
> Please forgive me for getting lost on this thread, but what exactly
> is the problem that we are trying to solve?
>
> Are we trying to make things simpler for novice users?  Advanced users?
> FreeDOS maintainers (Jerome in particular) ?
>
>

Summarizing from the original post that started this thread (March 3):


After the FreeDOS 1.3 release, I wanted to start thinking about what
comes next. I proposed three changes:

1. Move to an automatically updated test release, so it's easier to
test the current version.

I called this a "rolling release" in my original post, but I think
that's incorrect usage. To be clear, I suggest having an (automated?)
system that generates a new FreeDOS "test" release at some regular
interval. Let's say monthly, for example. Developers release new
packages all the time, but if it takes 5 or 6 years for a new official
FreeDOS distribution to come out, it kind of sucks if you want to test
the new updates in a full distribution. It puts a lot of work on us to
test *everything* at once when we're pushing to make FreeDOS 1.2 or
1.3 or 1.4. If we had regular "test" releases, folks could test those
and identify issues up front.

2. Simplify FreeDOS.

There's a lot in the FreeDOS distribution. Do we need all the packages
that we include in FreeDOS 1.3, when we release FreeDOS 1.4 (or 2.0,
whatever we call it)?

In my original post, I suggested we might remove the Unix packages. It
was a good experiment, but I think folks find it confusing. Also might
trim the editors, archivers, and utilities. Also suggested removing
all of the graphical desktops, since these are limited in what they do
(some are incomplete) and no one is working to fix the bugs.

I also suggested splitting the distribution into "full" (containing
everything, basically the LiveCD) and "mini" (containing just Base
packages). This helps folks who just want to install a basic FreeDOS
system, without the other packages.

By trimming the packages, do we need a BonusCD?

Deciding what packages to keep/remove is a larger discussion that we
should have in a different thread. I'll start up new threads for each
"package group" in hopes that this will keep discussion on-topic and
manageable.

3. Make LiveCD the default.

If most people use FreeDOS in a virtual machine, imagine defining a VM
with the LiveCD, and just booting the CD. You're running FreeDOS,
without having to install anything.

There would still need to be a way to install on a hard drive (for
folks who prefer to do that, or who are installing on bare hardware,
etc) but the default could be "run everything from the LiveCD by
default without having to install to a hard drive."

This also requires looking closely at what packages we include.


*I think this is a big change, so I suggested the next distro should be "2.0"


Jim


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0

[Jim Hall]

> On Apr 1, 2022, at 7:42 AM, Paul Dufresne via Freedos-devel 
>  wrote:
>
> Maybe we should come back to the question wheter we should continue
> to use ibiblio for releasing packages, or should concentrate on a
> (gitlab or github) repository.
>

On Fri, Apr 1, 2022 at 7:57 AM Jerome Shidel  wrote:
>
> I think the ibiblio repo should be kept for several reasons. First,
> you can connect over plain http. Another, they downloaded zip can
> easily be installed. Ibiblio is easier to browse.
>


I agree. Having the Files Archive (or "repo") hosted on Ibiblio is
preferable. It keeps all the files (including the distribution) in one
place, but logically separates them by directory so they are easy to
find and navigate. Some users want to just download the FreeDOS
distribution, and they'll likely do that using links from the website.
Others (like the developers here, but also others) want to navigate
the Files Archive to find updates to specific software, or find other
software we have there but don't include in the distribution.

Also, the folks at Ibiblio have hosted the FreeDOS Files Archive since
the very beginning in 1994. We have a lot of history there, and a lot
of links point there (not just from our websites, but other websites
that mention FreeDOS). So moving the Files Archive will break a lot of
things.


Jim


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[Freedos-devel] Grafx2 port to FreeDOS (alpha release)

[Devin Racher via Freedos-devel]

To whom it may concern,

I have been working on a FreeDOS port of Grafx2 
(http://grafx2.chez.com/index.php). The source code resides at: 
https://github.com/deverac/grafx2-dos. A FreeDOS package (with sources) resides 
at ./dist/grafx2.zip.

You are welcome to use it however you see fit (within the license, which is GPL 
version 2).

This is an alpha-release. Grafx2 has a lot of features. I have not tested them 
all. There are bound to be bugs.



FEATURES (copied from http://grafx2.chez.com/index.php?static1/features):
---

    * Image editing in indexed colors (with palette), up to 256 colors

    * Classical tools: lines, circles, text, multiple undo/redo, built-in 
brushes

    * Less classical tools: airbrush, splines, gradient-filled shapes, custom 
brushes

    * Layers, for easier changes of the composition as you work

    * Animations with multiple frames and export as GIF

    * Dual-view mode, you can see and draw both zoomed and actual size views at 
the same time

    * Extensive palette editor: RGB and HSL color systems, editing group of 
colors, define and create color ranges

    * Palette control: reorder colors without altering picture, common palette 
generation for merging two images

    * Shading mode: helps you to antialias with your own gradients

    * Grid mode: draw tile and easily assemble and copy them to create a screen 
mockup.

    * Patterned mode

    * Transparency, smoothing, smearing, and other advanced effects

    * Extensive and customizable shortcuts. You can control everything with the 
keyboard and disable the menu to draw fullscreen

    * Scripting with embedded Lua engine, to automate operations and perform 
powerful analysis and manipulation of pictures.

    * Unusual screen modes: wide and tall pixels (Not supported in FreeDOS port 
--Ed), constrained palettes. Very useful for pictures dedicated to 8 and 16-bit 
computers.

    * Special drawing modes, replicating constraints of ZX Spectrum, Thomson, 
Amstrad CPC custom modes, and others



FILE FORMATS
---
Grafx2 has internal support for the following formats: GIF, PNG, BMP, PCX, PKM, 
LBM, IFF, IMG, SCI, SCQ, SCF, SCN, SCO, PI1, PCL, CEL, NEO, KCF, PAL, C64, KOA. 
Third-party libraries have been included to support the following formats: TGA, 
PNM, XPM, JPG, TIF, ICO.



OTHER
---
    * This port is not simply recompiling old Grafx2 DOS source files to 
produce an executable. This port provides an 'emulation' of required SDL 
features, along with many modifications to the Grafx2 source code, in order to 
allow Grafx2 to run on FreeDOS.

    * This port runs on FreeDOS and DOSBox, but not DOSBox-X, and is compiled 
with DJGPP; CWSDPMI.EXE is required to run the executable.


Cheers!



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0

[Jerome Shidel]

> On Apr 1, 2022, at 7:42 AM, Paul Dufresne via Freedos-devel 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>  Activé jeu., 31 mars 2022 21:42:12 -0400 Michael Brutman 
>  écrit 
> 
> Please forgive me for getting lost on this thread, but what exactly is the 
> problem that we are trying to solve?
> 
> Are we trying to make things simpler for novice users?  Advanced users?  
> FreeDOS maintainers (Jerome in particular) ?
> 
> 
> When I said one should not modify a previous main directory of a released 
> version, I think the problem I try to resolve is to allow maintainers of 
> packages to compare the version on the released media with the more recent 
> versions, be it to evaluate the impact of a vulnerability or a change causing 
> bug in earlier version, or something similar.
> 
> My idea of releasing is, mostly upgrading the tree of packages by:
> 1)creating a new sub-version main repository that contains security and 
> updates of the current version
> 2)create an empty sub-version update and a security repository
> 3)create a new sub-version media with the content of the newly created main 
> repository created at step 1
> 
> I think part of the reason that we have not feel the need to do it like that 
> is that we build the media from an alternative
> place: gitlab repository. So we don't need, did not need the main repository 
> to build the media.

Correct. Originally, the RBE would only pull packages from ibiblio, process 
them and create the release media. During the development of 1.3 (forget which 
RC), the RBE was update to be capable of building the release in additional 
ways. Both related to using Git. Namely the FreeDOS archive on GitLab. The 
default is to clone the master branch of the package, do some processing (less 
required than those pulled from ibiblio) and create the release media. That is 
now the default method used. However, there is an additional option. The RBE 
can look for (and when present) a specific branch during the clone process. It 
can use that branch to create the build.

> 
> Maybe we should come back to the question wheter we should continue to use 
> ibiblio for releasing packages, or should concentrate on a (gitlab or github) 
> repository.

I think the ibiblio repo should be kept for several reasons. First, you can 
connect over plain http. Another, they downloaded zip can easily be installed. 
Ibiblio is easier to browse.


> 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0

[Paul Dufresne via Freedos-devel]

 Activé jeu., 31 mars 2022 21:42:12 -0400 Michael Brutman 
 écrit 



Please forgive me for getting lost on this thread, but what exactly is the 
problem that we are trying to solve?



Are we trying to make things simpler for novice users?  Advanced users?  
FreeDOS maintainers (Jerome in particular) ?












When I said one should not modify a previous main directory of a released 
version, I think the problem I try to resolve is to allow maintainers of 
packages to compare the version on the released media with the more recent 
versions, be it to evaluate the impact of a vulnerability or a change causing 
bug in earlier version, or something similar.



My idea of releasing is, mostly upgrading the tree of packages by:

1)creating a new sub-version main repository that contains security and updates 
of the current version

2)create an empty sub-version update and a security repository

3)create a new sub-version media with the content of the newly created main 
repository created at step 1



I think part of the reason that we have not feel the need to do it like that is 
that we build the media from an alternative

place: gitlab repository. So we don't need, did not need the main repository to 
build the media.



Maybe we should come back to the question wheter we should continue to use 
ibiblio for releasing packages, or should concentrate on a (gitlab or github) 
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