Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
Hi, > BTW: did anyone ever try to run Intel NDIS network drivers with > EMM386/JEMM ? Yes, I do. EMM386/JEMM works great with all Intel NDIS drivers for the 100, 1000 and 1 Series. Norbert. - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
> I am not woried at all. I just wonder which should be used in a wider > distribution... According to this current discussion, it looks like JEMM > should ;-) I have an idea. You could have a "compatible" configuration and a "full feature" configuration. Second one should load latest JEMMEX and maybe one of the protected mode drivers like XCDROM32 which is distributed with JEMM(EX). I am using it (or used it, because my hard disk crashed and I have to reinstall pure DOS. As I want a "special" DOS, I have to self-install most of programs and drivers without install-program of FreeDOS 1.0 ;-) and I am glad with it. Bye Flo -- Club Dr-DOS Wiki http//www.drdos.org private page http://www.flox.at.tf - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
Japheth escreveu: > AFAIR this was a DPMI issue, using int 31h, ax=0300h with register CX != ZERO > because the FD kernel returned CX > 0 in a DOS version call and MS-DOS > returned cx == 0. This issue is unrelated to Himem or Emm386. You should > provide a better example. :) Sorry, I got a little confused in this case because it was reported as an EMM bug (looked very much like that) and it was fixed by Michael at that same time as other emm bugs... > All I have to say is said already in the readme/history files. If you have > worries, and FD Emm386 works fine for you, then there is no reason to care > about Jemm. I am not woried at all. I just wonder which should be used in a wider distribution... According to this current discussion, it looks like JEMM should ;-) Thanks, Alain - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
>> - FDHimem opens an "interrupt window" in v86-mode only. HimemX opens >>an "interrupt window" in both v86- and real-mode. > that was probably the point where Jack started his own civil war ;) At least it WAS a bug, because this issue is mentioned in the XMS docs. >> - in FDHimem the routine which tests whether A20 is enabled is more >>complicated than necessary. > I looks now like it looked ~5 years back. That's how things are going ... :) > The 'more complicated then necessary' came in after some discussion > about some (hypotetical) problems with 386, broken caches, etc. I > don't mind > >> - if extended memory is >= 64 MB, the size returned by XMS V2 function >>is 65535 kB in HimemX, FDHimem returns 64448 kB. > > AFAIR, the 64448 number was intentional - some crazy app/game required > this Yes. I didn't claim this to be a bug in FD Himem, I just changed it to the value returned by MS Himem. > every thing else (just reading the ReadME !!) looks ok Thanks a lot! >> Btw, in the name of how many people are you speaking exactly? > LOTS. It took lots of iterations to make EMM386 compatible with any > existing DOS extender in lots of crazy/brain damaged apps/games. > >> And what do you regard as "well tested". > it was developed according to the specs, then a couple of bugs fixed. > > after that, a ton of crazy software still didn't run as it expected > specific limits (treating 65535 kB as signed integer etc.) > > AFAIK, Michael fixed all these issues. There are still some (dozens) left in FD Emm386 ... - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
Hi, > Hi Japheth, > > Japheth escreveu: >> Btw, in the name of how many people are you speaking exactly? And what do >> you >> regard as "well tested". Because, as for me, I seriously doubt that a >> program >> is "well tested" just because some dozens (or some hundreds? I have no idea >> how big the FD user base is.) people boot FD with Himem, running their >> favorite handfull of apps occationally and then switch back to windows/linux. > > Lots of tests were done by lots of people here in the list. I understand > your point that lots of people can mean nothing... but those test were > of many programs running in many platforms. > > Just to name one: there was one bug-for-bug fix that enabled BC31 to > work, it was something about a register being 00h on exist of a certain > call. The bug was by Borland, but the result is that now we can use one > more impotant program that didn't work ;-) AFAIR this was a DPMI issue, using int 31h, ax=0300h with register CX != ZERO because the FD kernel returned CX > 0 in a DOS version call and MS-DOS returned cx == 0. This issue is unrelated to Himem or Emm386. You should provide a better example. :) > I am not woried about parts that you fixed or rewrote, on the contrary, > you have a reputaion of very good code quality. What I am woried is that > some "compatibility fixes" could get lost. > I am planning to make a FreeDOS distro as of my own ideas. I personaly > never had problems with emm386 since Michael's last version but I would > like to know which is more appropriate for a "general" distribution. All I have to say is said already in the readme/history files. If you have worries, and FD Emm386 works fine for you, then there is no reason to care about Jemm. - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
>> We (many people in this list) espent months testing himem and emm386 >> from Michael Devore. Are those two just a bugfix from *that* well tested >> version or is it descendent from somewhere else? > As for HimemX: there are 12 bugfixes and some optimizations, all described in > the readme.txt. After reading the HimemX Readme, a few comments: > - FDHimem opens an "interrupt window" in v86-mode only. HimemX opens >an "interrupt window" in both v86- and real-mode. that was probably the point where Jack started his own civil war ;) > - in FDHimem the routine which tests whether A20 is enabled is more >complicated than necessary. I looks now like it looked ~5 years back. The 'more complicated then necessary' came in after some discussion about some (hypotetical) problems with 386, broken caches, etc. I don't mind > - if extended memory is >= 64 MB, the size returned by XMS V2 function >is 65535 kB in HimemX, FDHimem returns 64448 kB. AFAIR, the 64448 number was intentional - some crazy app/game required this every thing else (just reading the ReadME !!) looks ok > As for Jemm: some parts are rewritten from scratch, some are heavily modified. > It's quite different from FD Emm386 now. > Btw, in the name of how many people are you speaking exactly? LOTS. It took lots of iterations to make EMM386 compatible with any existing DOS extender in lots of crazy/brain damaged apps/games. > And what do you regard as "well tested". it was developed according to the specs, then a couple of bugs fixed. after that, a ton of crazy software still didn't run as it expected specific limits (treating 65535 kB as signed integer etc.) AFAIK, Michael fixed all these issues. > Because, as for me, I seriously doubt that a program > is "well tested" just because some dozens (or some hundreds? I have no idea > how big the FD user base is.) people boot FD with Himem, running their > favorite handfull of apps occationally and then switch back to windows/linux. it was more ~ hundred of bug reports 'App XYZ doesn't work' including USBASPI (which accesses HW memory at 3GB) BTW: did anyone ever try to run Intel NDIS network drivers with EMM386/JEMM ? Tom - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
Hi Japheth, Japheth escreveu: > Btw, in the name of how many people are you speaking exactly? And what do you > regard as "well tested". Because, as for me, I seriously doubt that a program > is "well tested" just because some dozens (or some hundreds? I have no idea > how big the FD user base is.) people boot FD with Himem, running their > favorite handfull of apps occationally and then switch back to windows/linux. Lots of tests were done by lots of people here in the list. I understand your point that lots of people can mean nothing... but those test were of many programs running in many platforms. Just to name one: there was one bug-for-bug fix that enabled BC31 to work, it was something about a register being 00h on exist of a certain call. The bug was by Borland, but the result is that now we can use one more impotant program that didn't work ;-) I am not woried about parts that you fixed or rewrote, on the contrary, you have a reputaion of very good code quality. What I am woried is that some "compatibility fixes" could get lost. I am planning to make a FreeDOS distro as of my own ideas. I personaly never had problems with emm386 since Michael's last version but I would like to know which is more appropriate for a "general" distribution. Thanks for the feedback, Alain - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
Hi Eric, I am still in doubt: did he start from Michael's last and well tested version or is it possible that it has bugs already fixed in Michael's version? Alain Eric Auer escreveu: > Hi Alain, > >>> If HIMEMX is "FreeDOS HIMEM plus some bugfixes by Japheth": Yes. >>> >>> OTHERWISE I recommend to use JEMM386 (also on www.japheth.de) >>> which is an optimized and improved version of FreeDOS emm386. > >> We (many people in this list) espent months testing himem and emm386 >> from Michael Devore. Are those two just a bugfix from *that* well >> tested version or is it descendent from somewhere else? > > > Japheth did indeed improve himem yet more. He also modified defaults, > so it is more Win9x style than MS DOS style now - no problem if you > read the docs to know which options you want for your old games ;-). > > You are right that the "public relations" are not as good as with > Michael Devore. Japheth keeps updating things, and his readme files > will tell you about the changes, but I cannot find an archive of old > versions (if you want to test which version introduced a problem) > and there are usually no mails to the freedos mailing lists when an > update is released, so I can only say "try if an update today helps > if you have any problem". I cannot say "this was fixed at time X" > or anything. His programming is certainly nice :-). > > > Another problem is that Japheth likes jemmex much better than the > himem plus jemm386 combination, I believe. Good point is that it > is one combined package (saves some overhead and is always compat- > ible to itself), bad point is that you cannot test the two parts > separately and cannot use classic configuration style. Users who > are used to MS DOS will have to learn more for jemmex than for a > classic himem plus jemm386 combination. > > Maybe a small extra problem with jemmex: You cannot ask people to > try what happens if they keep himem but skip emm386 (for debugging > purposes), as using himem and using jemmex will mean that you use > two completely separate implementations of what himem does. No big > problem - as long as any good himem stays available :-). > > > I myself sometimes load jemm386 and sometimes do not, but I almost > always load himem :-). > > Eric > > > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > > - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
> > We (many people in this list) espent months testing himem and emm386 > from Michael Devore. Are those two just a bugfix from *that* well tested > version or is it descendent from somewhere else? As for HimemX: there are 12 bugfixes and some optimizations, all described in the readme.txt. As for Jemm: some parts are rewritten from scratch, some are heavily modified. It's quite different from FD Emm386 now. Btw, in the name of how many people are you speaking exactly? And what do you regard as "well tested". Because, as for me, I seriously doubt that a program is "well tested" just because some dozens (or some hundreds? I have no idea how big the FD user base is.) people boot FD with Himem, running their favorite handfull of apps occationally and then switch back to windows/linux. - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
Alain M. schreef: > We (many people in this list) espent months testing himem and emm386 > from Michael Devore. Are those two just a bugfix from *that* well tested > version or is it descendent from somewhere else? > Based on EMM386 from FreeDOS indeed. Japheth is just adding different stuff than Michael and Tom were. See http://www.japheth.de/Jemm/README.TXT Few people are actually skilled enough programmers to bugfix/enhance lowlevel drivers it seems :) Also you might have seen Tom\s announcement long ago that EMM386 did what he desired from it, at which point Michael Devore stepped in and extended the functionality to that of a MS EMM386. It seems Japheth is slowly converting it to something like QEMM386, which is quite welcome (fastboot, single driver, lower memory print). > Alain > Bernd - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
Hi Alain, > > If HIMEMX is "FreeDOS HIMEM plus some bugfixes by Japheth": Yes. > > > > OTHERWISE I recommend to use JEMM386 (also on www.japheth.de) > > which is an optimized and improved version of FreeDOS emm386. > We (many people in this list) espent months testing himem and emm386 > from Michael Devore. Are those two just a bugfix from *that* well > tested version or is it descendent from somewhere else? Japheth did indeed improve himem yet more. He also modified defaults, so it is more Win9x style than MS DOS style now - no problem if you read the docs to know which options you want for your old games ;-). You are right that the "public relations" are not as good as with Michael Devore. Japheth keeps updating things, and his readme files will tell you about the changes, but I cannot find an archive of old versions (if you want to test which version introduced a problem) and there are usually no mails to the freedos mailing lists when an update is released, so I can only say "try if an update today helps if you have any problem". I cannot say "this was fixed at time X" or anything. His programming is certainly nice :-). Another problem is that Japheth likes jemmex much better than the himem plus jemm386 combination, I believe. Good point is that it is one combined package (saves some overhead and is always compat- ible to itself), bad point is that you cannot test the two parts separately and cannot use classic configuration style. Users who are used to MS DOS will have to learn more for jemmex than for a classic himem plus jemm386 combination. Maybe a small extra problem with jemmex: You cannot ask people to try what happens if they keep himem but skip emm386 (for debugging purposes), as using himem and using jemmex will mean that you use two completely separate implementations of what himem does. No big problem - as long as any good himem stays available :-). I myself sometimes load jemm386 and sometimes do not, but I almost always load himem :-). Eric - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
Hi all, Eric Auer wrote: > If HIMEMX is "FreeDOS HIMEM plus some bugfixes by Japheth": Yes. > > OTHERWISE I recommend to use JEMM386 (also on www.japheth.de) > which is an optimized and improved version of FreeDOS emm386. I also have doubts about this. We (many people in this list) espent months testing himem and emm386 from Michael Devore. Are those two just a bugfix from *that* well tested version or is it descendent from somewhere else? Alain - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
Hi m4mach, > I've notice some very strange thing. When I deleted all files from floppy > image (apart from kernel) and then put them again it worked... Probably because you accessed fewer sectors near the end then. I think your problem is that HIMEM space or EMM386 space overlap with MEMDISK space which can cause crashes. > 1. Is HIMEMX better than HIMEM? If HIMEMX is "FreeDOS HIMEM plus some bugfixes by Japheth": Yes. > 2. Is JEMMEX better than EMM386/HIMEM? Only for the very specific case that you want to squeeze out every single byte of free DOS memory, or that you need the new "load very special drivers which work only with JEMMEX" feature. And only if sort of experimental software is okay for you to use. OTHERWISE I recommend to use JEMM386 (also on www.japheth.de) which is an optimized and improved version of FreeDOS emm386. > 3. What's the difference between EMM386 and HIMEM.? HIMEM lets you access the HMA (DOS=HIGH) and XMS memory (with XMS available, FreeCOM uses only little DOS RAM, and other tools like ramdisks and caches also need XMS). EMM386 lets you access EMS memory, which is needed by a few older programs, and UMB memory, which lets you do things like DOSDATA=UMB, DOS=UMB and LOADHIGH / DEVICEHIGH. In addition, EMM386 modifies your access to the HMA, and EMM386 must be loaded after HIMEM. JEMMEX cannot really be compared to either. It is both at the same time, but then different, and with some added inferface for special drivers. > Better means for me more stable / powerfull / faster. My recommendation is Japheth-improved-HIMEM plus JEMM386. If you need no UMB / EMS, you might omit JEMM386, which should make things faster and more stable, but without UMB, you will have much less RAM free, maybe 590k instead of 620k, so you get "less powerful". > burned onto CD - so no change in the future, simply have to decide You should use a CD-RW until you are happy with your floppy. > 4. Does FreeDOS run on floppy image with FAT16 If it is FAT16 then it is no floppy. FreeDOS automatically assumes CHS (no LBA) for drives called A:. Apart from that, if you get all parameters set right, it should work. Note that you must NOT change any parameters or FAT type after you use SYS, otherwise it is easy to end up with a non-bootable image. As you have Linux, try this: www.coli.uni-saarland.de/~eric/stuff/soft/specials/sys-freedos-linux.zip Another way might be to tell MEMDISK to simulate a harddisk instead of a floppy. Note that that will modify the drive numbering for DOS. Also note that FAT12 can be up to 31.9 MB (in theory, 127.9 MB) but that some tools might get confused much earlier. For example the max possible "2 sided, < 256 cyl" geometry is 16 MB. Of course the question is: Why do you need an image above 2.88 MB at all? Eric - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] collision between freedos emm386 and memdisk
Hi thank you for fast replies I've notice some very strange thing. When I deleted all files from floppy image (apart from kernel) and then put them again it worked... (don't ask me how) I'm ashamed for bothering you with such a trivial mistake, so maybe not to make a dummy thread and use somehow your knowledge I would ask you some basic questions about memory managers: 1. Is HIMEMX better than HIMEM? 2. Is JEMMEX better than EMM386/HIMEM? 3. What's the differece between EMM386 and HIMEM.? Better means for me more stable / powerfull / faster. I would like to know what's your opinion about this managers assuming that I use FreeDOS as basic system mainly for learning (about DOS), using VC (commander) and rescue my main system, HDD or data when needed. I ask becouse this floppy will be burned onto CD - so no change in the future, simply have to decide earlier And some questions about file system / floppy image: 4. Does FreeDOS run on floppy image with FAT16 (my experiments tell: no, FREEDOS_ and hangs) 5. How to format floppy image ~10MB with FAT16 to work with FreeDOS (I've tried mkdosfs FAT16 but boot loader - dedicated for FAT16 - can't find kernel, FAT12 works). Maybe there are other tools. m4mach - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
