Re: [FRIAM] metaphor and talking across skill levels
Hi, Carl, Nobody has bit on my hypothetical, not even you, a man I regard as less afraid of hypotheticals than most. Perhaps it's because I made an important error in describing the setup. Imagine that I am standing before you holding a flat object, such as a notebook in my left hand, flat side to you. I hold a small object in my right hand, let's say an art gum eraser, so that appears to you above and behind the plain of notebook. I release the eraser. Please give me a plain-spoken description of what you would see. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Carl Tollander Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 9:18 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] metaphor and talking across skill levels This may throw something (light?) on the issue. http://cheng.staff.shef.ac.uk/morality/morality.pdf http://cheng.staff.shef.ac.uk/morality/morality.pdf The reason I'm tossing this in may not become apparent until a ways into it, when mathematical morality notions are used to address abstraction. From my own perspective, I swap in musician/composer for mathematician, but hey, I'm listening to Maria Joao Pires recordings just now. Carl On 3/10/15 10:36 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: Ok Glen, Imagine that I am standing before you holding a flat object, such as a notebook in my left hand, flat side to you. I hold a small object, let's say an artgum eraser, in my right hand above and behind the notebook. I release the eraser. Please give me a plain-spoken description of what you would see. Thanks, Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [ mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ep ropella Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 9:31 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] metaphor and talking across skill levels On 03/09/2015 05:44 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: I gather that symmetry is itself a metaphor, subject both to the joys and pains thereof. I suggest symmetry has a non-metaphorical definition. But I admit the word can be successfully _abused_. ;-) I never could find a plain spoken way to describe above and below the plane of the molecule without resort to the very terms I was trying to explain, until I thought of restaurant staff stacking six sided tables on top of one another to facilitate cleaning. Only then did the three dimensionality of traditional ring diagrams make any sense to me. But, see, _my_ problem is that I don't regard the concept above and below the plane of the molecule to be science. That's ideological hoo-ha bouncing around in someone's mind. The science is what's done with the hands (and feet, nose, etc.). There is no plain spoken way to describe concepts. There are only plain spoken ways to describe _things_ ... real things that you can touch and leave a bruise when someone throws it at you. To me, metaphor doesn't seem fundamental to science because science is about what you _do_, not what you think. It's way more scientific to talk about stacking tables than it is to talk about above and below the molecule. -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-255-2847, http://tempusdictum.com http://tempusdictum.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] metaphor and talking across skill levels
This may throw something (light?) on the issue. http://cheng.staff.shef.ac.uk/morality/morality.pdf The reason I'm tossing this in may not become apparent until a ways into it, when mathematical morality notions are used to address abstraction. From my own perspective, I swap in musician/composer for mathematician, but hey, I'm listening to Maria Joao Pires recordings just now. Carl On 3/10/15 10:36 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: Ok Glen, Imagine that I am standing before you holding a flat object, such as a notebook in my left hand, flat side to you. I hold a small object, let's say an artgum eraser, in my right hand above and behind the notebook. I release the eraser. Please give me a plain-spoken description of what you would see. Thanks, Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ep ropella Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 9:31 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] metaphor and talking across skill levels On 03/09/2015 05:44 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: I gather that symmetry is itself a metaphor, subject both to the joys and pains thereof. I suggest symmetry has a non-metaphorical definition. But I admit the word can be successfully _abused_. ;-) I never could find a plain spoken way to describe above and below the plane of the molecule without resort to the very terms I was trying to explain, until I thought of restaurant staff stacking six sided tables on top of one another to facilitate cleaning. Only then did the three dimensionality of traditional ring diagrams make any sense to me. But, see, _my_ problem is that I don't regard the concept above and below the plane of the molecule to be science. That's ideological hoo-ha bouncing around in someone's mind. The science is what's done with the hands (and feet, nose, etc.). There is no plain spoken way to describe concepts. There are only plain spoken ways to describe _things_ ... real things that you can touch and leave a bruise when someone throws it at you. To me, metaphor doesn't seem fundamental to science because science is about what you _do_, not what you think. It's way more scientific to talk about stacking tables than it is to talk about above and below the molecule. -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-255-2847, http://tempusdictum.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] metaphor and talking across skill levels
I just meant symmetry in the broad sense, for example that something has a symmetry if it has the regular form or a crystal structure. Crystals are very symmetrical, the atoms of a crystal are arranged in a regular, rigid grid. There are various crystal symmetries, just like there are various rhymes like Hexameter and Pentameter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal In mathematics, symmetry as everything else has a very precise definition, for example it could mean that an object is invariant to a transformation or can be mapped on another in some kind of isomorphism. But it could also just mean that two objects have the same size, for example a triangle with two sides of equal length is certainly symmetrical and has an axis of symmetry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetry What I find surprising is that even in ordinary language symmetries seem to be very important, if you consider metaphors as symmetries in the world of ideas, i.e. as little gems. Some books are so full of gems that they shine and sparkle. You can mine them for insights, ideas and metaphors. It is true, authors and writers - literature in general - own metaphors, just as scientists own mathematics. Ernest Rutherford said All science is either physics or stamp collecting. For writers and authors the stamps are metaphors. They collect metaphors and use them to decorate their books and works. Many have their own metaphor collection which they have acquired over time in notebooks, diaries, etc. Some scientific theories are nearly entirely based on metaphors - esp. evolution which is based on natural selection and selfish genes. Some of our oldest books, the holy books of the big religions, are based on metaphors as well. The house of god or the son of god are metaphors just like the selfish gene. Poems are in turn so condensed that they are like gems themselves. Take for example Ralph Waldo Emerson who writes If the sages ask thee why This charm is wasted on the earth and sky, Tell them, dear, that if eyes were made for seeing, Then beauty is its own excuse for being -J. On 03/09/2015 08:52 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: Historically, I have had terrible trouble with the way some folks employ “symmetry” on this list. Steve G. and I used to get into tangles about this. I get that crystals have “symmetry”, but beyond that, I am struggling to understand what you mean. Perhaps you might explicate for those of us who have a hard time not thinking of symmetry as just “being the same on the right as on the left, etc.” I am further made very nervous with any implication that literature “owns” metaphor whereas scientists are given to plain speech. I think this way of think VASTLY under states the role of metaphor in science. Think Natural Selection, for instance. Also, I have often wondered if a metaphor with magnetism lay behind Newton’s thinking on gravity. Lodestones were of great interest to scientists in Court at the time because of their usefulness in navigation, but also as a curiousity. Lakoff and Nunen (?) describe the central role of metaphors in the development of mathematics. Peirce’s emphasis on “sign” places something very like metaphor at the center of all scientific thought. Nick FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] metaphor and talking across skill levels
Jochem, Thanks for this clarification. So, I take it that a metaphor is an example of a symmetry [sensu frommi] because there are some invariant properties when we move from the source of the metaphor to the target. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 3:12 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] metaphor and talking across skill levels I just meant symmetry in the broad sense, for example that something has a symmetry if it has the regular form or a crystal structure. Crystals are very symmetrical, the atoms of a crystal are arranged in a regular, rigid grid. There are various crystal symmetries, just like there are various rhymes like Hexameter and Pentameter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal In mathematics, symmetry as everything else has a very precise definition, for example it could mean that an object is invariant to a transformation or can be mapped on another in some kind of isomorphism. But it could also just mean that two objects have the same size, for example a triangle with two sides of equal length is certainly symmetrical and has an axis of symmetry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetry What I find surprising is that even in ordinary language symmetries seem to be very important, if you consider metaphors as symmetries in the world of ideas, i.e. as little gems. Some books are so full of gems that they shine and sparkle. You can mine them for insights, ideas and metaphors. It is true, authors and writers - literature in general - own metaphors, just as scientists own mathematics. Ernest Rutherford said All science is either physics or stamp collecting. For writers and authors the stamps are metaphors. They collect metaphors and use them to decorate their books and works. Many have their own metaphor collection which they have acquired over time in notebooks, diaries, etc. Some scientific theories are nearly entirely based on metaphors - esp. evolution which is based on natural selection and selfish genes. Some of our oldest books, the holy books of the big religions, are based on metaphors as well. The house of god or the son of god are metaphors just like the selfish gene. Poems are in turn so condensed that they are like gems themselves. Take for example Ralph Waldo Emerson who writes If the sages ask thee why This charm is wasted on the earth and sky, Tell them, dear, that if eyes were made for seeing, Then beauty is its own excuse for being -J. On 03/09/2015 08:52 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: Historically, I have had terrible trouble with the way some folks employ symmetry on this list. Steve G. and I used to get into tangles about this. I get that crystals have symmetry, but beyond that, I am struggling to understand what you mean. Perhaps you might explicate for those of us who have a hard time not thinking of symmetry as just being the same on the right as on the left, etc. I am further made very nervous with any implication that literature owns metaphor whereas scientists are given to plain speech. I think this way of think VASTLY under states the role of metaphor in science. Think Natural Selection, for instance. Also, I have often wondered if a metaphor with magnetism lay behind Newton's thinking on gravity. Lodestones were of great interest to scientists in Court at the time because of their usefulness in navigation, but also as a curiousity. Lakoff and Nunen (?) describe the central role of metaphors in the development of mathematics. Peirce's emphasis on sign places something very like metaphor at the center of all scientific thought. Nick FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] [WedTech] The nature of ISIS
I have read the Koran (only in English, I'm afraid), and I work with Muslims in the Middle East. This is the best article so far written about ISIS. It confirms everything I've been told. And for further insight, if you don't know much about how we got to this point, read the magisterial Lawrence IN Arabia by Scott Anderson. I don't think Wood in his Atlantic article mentioned the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916, which divided the Ottoman Empire chop chop at will between Britain and France. Revenge has been long in coming. On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:11 PM, Owen Densmore o...@backspaces.net wrote: Oops, I just noticed this is not a Friam discussion, but WedTech. I think its more appropriately on Friam, WedTech being more local and technical. Forgive the cross post please. Friam: This is a discussion on a recent, quite serious, Atlantic post on ISIS which seems authentic. http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/?fb_ref=Default I'd like any of us who have actually read the Koran, along with the prophet's other writings, could comment on the article. -- Owen On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 3:50 PM, Owen Densmore o...@backspaces.net wrote: This really is extraordinary. It seems like we are seeing, then, an odd beginning of WWIII .. one born out extreme literal interpretation of Islamic writings (apparently not the Koran but the prophecies of Muhammad?) , coupled initially with civil wars amongst all muslim nations. Then on to the apocalypse. If it is indeed the beginning of WWIII, then we'd better at least recognize it. Especially modern Islam which will be destroyed first. Then Europe. Then will we wake up to the real nature of ISIS and its goals? .. if we can believe this article, which seem quite convincing. It will be interesting to see which countries align with each other, and when. I'd guess ISIS forces China and Russia to align. They are both Nuclear Powers this could begin the apocalypse most easily. -- Owen On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 7:38 PM, Bruce Sherwood bruce.sherw...@gmail.com wrote: Here is an exceedingly informative explanation of the nature of the Islamic State: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/?fb_ref=Default Bruce ___ Wedtech mailing list wedt...@redfish.com http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/wedtech_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA me...@emergentdiplomacy.org mobile: (303) 859-5609 skype: merlelefkoff FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] [WedTech] The nature of ISIS
I'd be interested in takes on this follow-up: What The Atlantic Left Out About ISIS According To Their Own Expert http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/02/20/3625446/atlantic-left-isis-conversation-bernard-haykel/ On 03/10/2015 04:44 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote: I have read the Koran (only in English, I'm afraid), and I work with Muslims in the Middle East. This is the best article so far written about ISIS. It confirms everything I've been told. And for further insight, if you don't know much about how we got to this point, read the magisterial Lawrence IN Arabia by Scott Anderson. I don't think Wood in his Atlantic article mentioned the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916, which divided the Ottoman Empire chop chop at will between Britain and France. Revenge has been long in coming. On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 4:11 PM, Owen Densmore o...@backspaces.net wrote: Oops, I just noticed this is not a Friam discussion, but WedTech. I think its more appropriately on Friam, WedTech being more local and technical. Forgive the cross post please. Friam: This is a discussion on a recent, quite serious, Atlantic post on ISIS which seems authentic. http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/?fb_ref=Default I'd like any of us who have actually read the Koran, along with the prophet's other writings, could comment on the article. -- Owen -- ⇔ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
