date:20170605


Glen -

And now you sound a little like Kurt Vonnegut's satire: Harrison 
Bergeron 


   /In the year 2081, amendments to the Constitution dictate that all
   Americans are fully equal and not allowed to be smarter,
   better-looking, or more physically able than anyone else. The
   Handicapper General's agents enforce the equality laws, forcing
   citizens to wear "handicaps": masks for those who are too beautiful,
   radios inside the ears of intelligent people, and heavy weights for
   the strong or athletic./

I know you are 'just poking' and I guess I'm poking too!

- Steve

On 6/5/17 3:58 PM, glen ☣ wrote:

Ugh.  So, now that only pretty people can make music, you're arguing that only 
pretty people can run the government?  I like the idea of the masks many of the 
antifa people wear. Along with the bias that we think pretty people are more 
intelligent, competent, whatever, we have:

   The Code for Facial Identity in the Primate Brain
   http://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674%2817%2930538-X

I want to live in the country ran by people like Bob Dylan, Lyle Lovett, et al. 
 Or, barring that, one where everyone has to wear a mask.

On 06/05/2017 02:47 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

I've been teasing the young ones today, but this 
one
 raised £2.7m for the British red cross with a week of preparation.   She should run for 
office!  Meanwhile, I’m looking to watch a darker spinoff of 
Portlandia.



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Re: [FRIAM] semiotics, again?

2017-06-05 Thread Carl Tollander

Seems like Kanji would qualify as such an exploration.   See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji particularly where they talk about
different "readings".   (also see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_characters for a broader situating
explanation)  Somewhat sideways, one could look also at the Kana (signs in
the domain of phonemes) and how they are pronounced slightly differently in
different combinations by different speakers.

Calligraphy might also qualify.

Carl

On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 6:26 PM, glen ☣  wrote:

> EricS' categorization of a cumulative hierarchy for reflective complexity
> reminded me of this:
>
>   A Linguist Responds to Cormac McCarthy
>   http://nautil.us/issue/48/chaos/a-linguist-responds-to-cormac-mccarthy
>
> particularly the difference between a "hard-coded" referent (e.g. a
> hypothetical neuroanatomical structure tightly coupled to efficient
> language acquisition and use) versus an ambiguous/multi-valent referent.
> And that launched my typically vague meandering back to the semiotics
> 3-tuple: .  Freedom can occur in any of the
> three.  A sign can refer to multiple objects, be interpreted by multiple
> interpretants, multiple objects can be signified by the same sign, etc.
> This leads directly to Sedivy's point about compositionality of signs and
> works its way back to my beef with the idea that subsystems like the BZ
> reaction (or any context-dependnt module) are complex systems.
>
> Unfortunately, I'm too ignorant of the fleshing of semiotics to know
> whether these freedoms (in any/all of the triad) have been explored.  So,
> please hand me some clues if you have them!
>
> --
> ☣ glen
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] Get ready for Blockchain

There's no maybe about that.  While my friends were counterprotesting on 
Sunday, I was mowing the lawn and quaffing lager like a good provincial.  Just 
don't go tracing contributions to sci-hub ... That would worry me.

On 06/05/2017 04:17 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Maybe I traced out some of those links farther than you did.   Like say the 
> brothers & sisters down in South Dallas.  :-)

-- 
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] Get ready for Blockchain

Maybe I traced out some of those links farther than you did.   Like say the 
brothers & sisters down in South Dallas.  :-)

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 5:06 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Get ready for Blockchain

Or, better yet, donate with a traceable transaction chain. We're not anonymous 
because we're literally anonymous.  We're anonymous because we are legion.  Or, 
as my biker buddies say: safety in numbers.

On 06/05/2017 03:51 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I noticed some but not all of those organizations take Bitcoin.  
> Clear thinking sympathetic people shouldn't contribute without employing a 
> tumbler.   Plainly this is just a step or two away from trouble.   Just to 
> show it isn't just the Alex Jones types that would exercise this technology.

--
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] Get ready for Blockchain

Or, better yet, donate with a traceable transaction chain. We're not anonymous 
because we're literally anonymous.  We're anonymous because we are legion.  Or, 
as my biker buddies say: safety in numbers.

On 06/05/2017 03:51 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I noticed some but not all of those organizations take Bitcoin.  
> Clear thinking sympathetic people shouldn't contribute without employing a 
> tumbler.   Plainly this is just a step or two away from trouble.   Just to 
> show it isn't just the Alex Jones types that would exercise this technology.

--
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] Get ready for Blockchain

I noticed some but not all of those organizations take Bitcoin.  
Clear thinking sympathetic people shouldn't contribute without employing a 
tumbler.   Plainly this is just a step or two away from trouble.   Just to show 
it isn't just the Alex Jones types that would exercise this technology.

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 4:27 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Get ready for Blockchain

Heh, yeah, I agree.  I'm just poking.  But this goes back to the other thread 
re: individual intellect vs. the hive mind.  Perhaps these kids _know_ that 
they are sacrificable, largely homogenous, cells in a large organism?  I know 
my own tolerance to risk was lowered with my cancer diagnosis.  I am not 
important.  When I die, few will notice, even fewer will care.  So, I may as 
well have some fun until that time.  The bad guys can kill 7, or 48, or 3000 of 
us.  But they can't kill the organism.

Those of us who put a lot of stock in "great people" 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man_theory), minds, and contributions of 
individuals, regardless of how pretty or brilliant, cannot fundamentally 
believe that we're all sacrificable.  They cannot believe in the collective.

The mythos surrounding the shoe elves that come in the night to help the 
cobbler is resurging, thanks be to our lord Lucifer.

On 06/05/2017 03:18 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Honestly.  If Bob Dylan were there it would have been even bigger deal.   
> While May and Trump are acting like scared kids that are having their bully 
> status challenged, the people that organized this concert not only raised 
> money, they also put out a useful message:Don't close the blinds and hide 
> in your house, go out and have fun and live in spite of these risks.   Can't 
> pretty people do a good thing?   Somewhere in one of those MJ links I saw one 
> of the masked anarchists patching a road before running off into the 
> darkness.   There's something wrong with a world where fixing something for 
> others must be treated with suspicion. 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 3:58 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Get ready for Blockchain
> 
> 
> Ugh.  So, now that only pretty people can make music, you're arguing that 
> only pretty people can run the government?  I like the idea of the masks many 
> of the antifa people wear. Along with the bias that we think pretty people 
> are more intelligent, competent, whatever, we have:
> 
>   The Code for Facial Identity in the Primate Brain
>   http://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674%2817%2930538-X
> 
> I want to live in the country ran by people like Bob Dylan, Lyle Lovett, et 
> al.  Or, barring that, one where everyone has to wear a mask.
> 
> On 06/05/2017 02:47 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> I've been teasing the young ones today, but this 
>> one
>>  raised £2.7m for the British red cross with a week of preparation.   She 
>> should run for office!  Meanwhile, I’m looking to watch a darker spinoff of 
>> Portlandia.

--
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] Get ready for Blockchain

Heh, yeah, I agree.  I'm just poking.  But this goes back to the other thread 
re: individual intellect vs. the hive mind.  Perhaps these kids _know_ that 
they are sacrificable, largely homogenous, cells in a large organism?  I know 
my own tolerance to risk was lowered with my cancer diagnosis.  I am not 
important.  When I die, few will notice, even fewer will care.  So, I may as 
well have some fun until that time.  The bad guys can kill 7, or 48, or 3000 of 
us.  But they can't kill the organism.

Those of us who put a lot of stock in "great people" 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Man_theory), minds, and contributions of 
individuals, regardless of how pretty or brilliant, cannot fundamentally 
believe that we're all sacrificable.  They cannot believe in the collective.

The mythos surrounding the shoe elves that come in the night to help the 
cobbler is resurging, thanks be to our lord Lucifer.

On 06/05/2017 03:18 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Honestly.  If Bob Dylan were there it would have been even bigger deal.   
> While May and Trump are acting like scared kids that are having their bully 
> status challenged, the people that organized this concert not only raised 
> money, they also put out a useful message:Don't close the blinds and hide 
> in your house, go out and have fun and live in spite of these risks.   Can't 
> pretty people do a good thing?   Somewhere in one of those MJ links I saw one 
> of the masked anarchists patching a road before running off into the 
> darkness.   There's something wrong with a world where fixing something for 
> others must be treated with suspicion. 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 3:58 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Get ready for Blockchain
> 
> 
> Ugh.  So, now that only pretty people can make music, you're arguing that 
> only pretty people can run the government?  I like the idea of the masks many 
> of the antifa people wear. Along with the bias that we think pretty people 
> are more intelligent, competent, whatever, we have:
> 
>   The Code for Facial Identity in the Primate Brain
>   http://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674%2817%2930538-X
> 
> I want to live in the country ran by people like Bob Dylan, Lyle Lovett, et 
> al.  Or, barring that, one where everyone has to wear a mask.
> 
> On 06/05/2017 02:47 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> I've been teasing the young ones today, but this 
>> one
>>  raised £2.7m for the British red cross with a week of preparation.   She 
>> should run for office!  Meanwhile, I’m looking to watch a darker spinoff of 
>> Portlandia.

-- 
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] Get ready for Blockchain

Honestly.  If Bob Dylan were there it would have been even bigger deal.   While 
May and Trump are acting like scared kids that are having their bully status 
challenged, the people that organized this concert not only raised money, they 
also put out a useful message:Don't close the blinds and hide in your 
house, go out and have fun and live in spite of these risks.   Can't pretty 
people do a good thing?   Somewhere in one of those MJ links I saw one of the 
masked anarchists patching a road before running off into the darkness.   
There's something wrong with a world where fixing something for others must be 
treated with suspicion. 

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 3:58 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Get ready for Blockchain

Ugh.  So, now that only pretty people can make music, you're arguing that only 
pretty people can run the government?  I like the idea of the masks many of the 
antifa people wear. Along with the bias that we think pretty people are more 
intelligent, competent, whatever, we have:

  The Code for Facial Identity in the Primate Brain
  http://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674%2817%2930538-X

I want to live in the country ran by people like Bob Dylan, Lyle Lovett, et al. 
 Or, barring that, one where everyone has to wear a mask.

On 06/05/2017 02:47 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I've been teasing the young ones today, but this 
> one
>  raised £2.7m for the British red cross with a week of preparation.   She 
> should run for office!  Meanwhile, I’m looking to watch a darker spinoff of 
> Portlandia.

--
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] Get ready for Blockchain

Ugh.  So, now that only pretty people can make music, you're arguing that only 
pretty people can run the government?  I like the idea of the masks many of the 
antifa people wear. Along with the bias that we think pretty people are more 
intelligent, competent, whatever, we have:

  The Code for Facial Identity in the Primate Brain
  http://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674%2817%2930538-X

I want to live in the country ran by people like Bob Dylan, Lyle Lovett, et al. 
 Or, barring that, one where everyone has to wear a mask.

On 06/05/2017 02:47 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I've been teasing the young ones today, but this 
> one
>  raised £2.7m for the British red cross with a week of preparation.   She 
> should run for office!  Meanwhile, I’m looking to watch a darker spinoff of 
> Portlandia.

-- 
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] Get ready for Blockchain

Glen writes:







I've been teasing the young ones today, but this 
one
 raised £2.7m for the British red cross with a week of preparation.   She 
should run for office!  Meanwhile, I’m looking to watch a darker spinoff of 
Portlandia.



Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

The infuriating parts are 1) re-centralization of a de-centralized idea and 2) 
withdrawal of standardized means for (programmatically) reading and writing 
content.If someone wants to make a pretty website that's fine (I couldn't 
care less), but don't do it in such a way that it makes it artificially hard to 
publish or access information.

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 3:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

I wish I had a copy of LANL's first "home" page...  modeled vaguely on TBLs 
page of which www.lanl.gov and xxx.lanl.gov showed up around #50 in 
his links out at that time.   It looked a lot like this.  The wayback 
machine seems only able to cough up things back to a year or two later after 
I'd gotten *most of* the stakeholders at LANL to at least *think
about* what the relevance of their charter was to the Web (or vice-versa).

Go Cosma!

On 6/5/17 3:06 PM, glen ☣ wrote:
> This is what a web page should look like: http://bactra.org/
>
> On 06/05/2017 02:03 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Well, I for one hate Confluence (and similar things).Before I could 
>> construct a page with some constructed HTML and generated linked files.  Now 
>> it is some dorky plug-in protocol that adds no particular value.   All for 
>> the sake of taking information out of my hands and putting in "that main 
>> place".Damned kids running around.

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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

I wish I had a copy of LANL's first "home" page...  modeled vaguely on 
TBLs page of which www.lanl.gov and xxx.lanl.gov showed up around #50 in 
his links out at that time.   It looked a lot like this.  The wayback 
machine seems only able to cough up things back to a year or two later 
after I'd gotten *most of* the stakeholders at LANL to at least *think 
about* what the relevance of their charter was to the Web (or vice-versa).


Go Cosma!


On 6/5/17 3:06 PM, glen ☣ wrote:

This is what a web page should look like: http://bactra.org/

On 06/05/2017 02:03 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Well, I for one hate Confluence (and similar things).Before I could construct a page 
with some constructed HTML and generated linked files.  Now it is some dorky plug-in 
protocol that adds no particular value.   All for the sake of taking information out of 
my hands and putting in "that main place".Damned kids running around.




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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

Somehow they didn't get the memo about the World Wide Web.

(And see Owen's earlier post about Facebook.  Yes.)

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 3:07 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

This is what a web page should look like: http://bactra.org/

On 06/05/2017 02:03 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> Well, I for one hate Confluence (and similar things).Before I could 
> construct a page with some constructed HTML and generated linked files.  Now 
> it is some dorky plug-in protocol that adds no particular value.   All for 
> the sake of taking information out of my hands and putting in "that main 
> place".Damned kids running around.

--

☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

I found my nephew's engagement in WoW back in the day (8 years ago now?) 
to be every bit as real to him as a physical world, especially with the 
realtime audio feeds among his team-mates online.  They jumped in and 
out of WoW as reluctantly as kids came home from "kick the can" at dusk 
in my generation (I never had that, not living in "neighborhoods" but do 
understand the lore/lure of it all).


I don't know if media-enriched social media meet that goal.  My own 
field which I have begun to abandon as irrelevant (in the sense that all 
I knew and built "back in the day" is being re-invented from the angle 
of social media) seems to be coming to fruit.   I don't know if young 
people hang out in VR headsets, talking to one another's avatars or 
sharing their virtual (or real, telepresent) spaces or not... I'm kinda 
guessing not, but I bet that is coming... maybe once headsets become as 
non-invasive as reading glasses or contact lenses.  Remember the early 
days of bluetooth headsets when wankers sitting near you in a bar or 
coffee shop would reach up and touch their ear and then start talking 
loudly (and often belligerently) to a ghost sitting across from them?  
It was fukkin eerie, even though I understood the tech down to the gnats 
ass and had even worked with vaguely similar technology long before it's 
prime time.   It was the cultural shift that threw me, not the technolgical.


My own work in collective intelligence (2001 ALife: Johnson, Rasmussen, 
et alia) did not verge on collective consciousness much less collective 
wisdom nor collective soulfulness, but I believe such a thing exists and 
it will be people like Krista Tippet (On Being) in the range of 
conversations she curates in her radio/podcast show "On Being" 
and the "Civil Conversations" 
 project it cohabitates 
with.  Her recent interview with Brian Greene 
stands in stark contrast but simultaneously 
starkly familiar style and meaning with her interview with the (former?) 
right wing shock jock "Glenn Beck"...


just sayin'
 - Steve


How does moral necessity of The Midnight Computer Wiring Society 
 
evolve without a shared environment?


-Original Message-

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?

Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 10:59 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

On 06/05/2017 09:58 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:

> Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that 
was our generation(s)'s thing!


Much less use email.  If you want to subvert the youth, use Instagram 
or somesuch.


--

☣ glen



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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

This is what a web page should look like: http://bactra.org/

On 06/05/2017 02:03 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Well, I for one hate Confluence (and similar things).Before I could 
> construct a page with some constructed HTML and generated linked files.  Now 
> it is some dorky plug-in protocol that adds no particular value.   All for 
> the sake of taking information out of my hands and putting in "that main 
> place".Damned kids running around.   

-- 
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

Well, I for one hate Confluence (and similar things).Before I could 
construct a page with some constructed HTML and generated linked files.  Now it 
is some dorky plug-in protocol that adds no particular value.   All for the 
sake of taking information out of my hands and putting in "that main place".
Damned kids running around.   

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 2:54 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

Or even something we don't know about yet!

I have had my 30-something colleagues ask me to sign up for things I can't 
remember because "that is the main place they can be found".  I'd like to shake 
my fist and say "get off my lawn!" to them but I don't even know if they know 
what a lawn is, or what the gesture of fist-shaking means!

On 6/5/17 10:59 AM, glen ☣ wrote:
> On 06/05/2017 09:58 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:
>> Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that was our 
>> generation(s)'s thing!
> Much less use email.  If you want to subvert the youth, use Instagram or 
> somesuch.
>

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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman


Or even something we don't know about yet!

I have had my 30-something colleagues ask me to sign up for things I 
can't remember because "that is the main place they can be found".  I'd 
like to shake my fist and say "get off my lawn!" to them but I don't 
even know if they know what a lawn is, or what the gesture of 
fist-shaking means!




On 6/5/17 10:59 AM, glen ☣ wrote:

On 06/05/2017 09:58 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:

Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that was our 
generation(s)'s thing!

Much less use email.  If you want to subvert the youth, use Instagram or 
somesuch.





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[FRIAM] semiotics, again?

EricS' categorization of a cumulative hierarchy for reflective complexity 
reminded me of this:

  A Linguist Responds to Cormac McCarthy
  http://nautil.us/issue/48/chaos/a-linguist-responds-to-cormac-mccarthy

particularly the difference between a "hard-coded" referent (e.g. a 
hypothetical neuroanatomical structure tightly coupled to efficient language 
acquisition and use) versus an ambiguous/multi-valent referent.  And that 
launched my typically vague meandering back to the semiotics 3-tuple: 
.  Freedom can occur in any of the three.  A sign can 
refer to multiple objects, be interpreted by multiple interpretants, multiple 
objects can be signified by the same sign, etc.  This leads directly to 
Sedivy's point about compositionality of signs and works its way back to my 
beef with the idea that subsystems like the BZ reaction (or any 
context-dependnt module) are complex systems.

Unfortunately, I'm too ignorant of the fleshing of semiotics to know whether 
these freedoms (in any/all of the triad) have been explored.  So, please hand 
me some clues if you have them!

-- 
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

Hmm.  I think "The Mind" will still be present at universities, and it will be 
mocking "The Hive" while being relatively uninvolved.   I don't object to the 
stumbling but I do object to driving the time window of performance down toward 
zero and toward an audience that has an unsophisticated way of judging things.  
 "Did you make a pretty web page?   Yes or no?"   In contrast a lab (or a 
computer enthusiast group) develops a more complex and nuanced gestalt.  It's a 
question of what kind of people are driving the field forward.   I think the 
field is much richer now, but is in the hands of a less diverse and less 
engaged class of drivers.   Maybe that is just "Get off my lawn!" or endless 
Gore Vidal type whining.  I don't know.

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 11:55 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

I share your worry.  But when I hear myself say it, it sounds like "Get off my 
lawn!"  Perhaps evolution is (will be) faster with more stumbling around in 
public?  The mind is dead.  Long live the hive.

On 06/05/2017 10:50 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Sure, like the link on that page over the github and siggraph paper that gets 
> the wheels turning.   This trend toward public github & portfolios I think 
> leads to a lot of shallowness and not the development of depth-first search 
> and occult representations.   I guess young people have to get `out there' to 
> get into the market,  but a lot of what I see seems like stumbling around in 
> public.

--
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

I share your worry.  But when I hear myself say it, it sounds like "Get off my 
lawn!"  Perhaps evolution is (will be) faster with more stumbling around in 
public?  The mind is dead.  Long live the hive.

On 06/05/2017 10:50 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Sure, like the link on that page over the github and siggraph paper that gets 
> the wheels turning.   This trend toward public github & portfolios I think 
> leads to a lot of shallowness and not the development of depth-first search 
> and occult representations.   I guess young people have to get `out there' to 
> get into the market,  but a lot of what I see seems like stumbling around in 
> public.

-- 
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

Sure, like the link on that page over the github and siggraph paper that gets 
the wheels turning.   This trend toward public github & portfolios I think 
leads to a lot of shallowness and not the development of depth-first search and 
occult representations.   I guess young people have to get `out there' to get 
into the market,  but a lot of what I see seems like stumbling around in public.

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 11:36 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

I have no idea.  Stuff like this helps, though: 
https://www.instagram.com/inconvergent/

On 06/05/2017 10:21 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> How does moral necessity of The Midnight Computer Wiring 
> Society
>  evolve without a shared environment?

--
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

I have no idea.  Stuff like this helps, though: 
https://www.instagram.com/inconvergent/

On 06/05/2017 10:21 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> How does moral necessity of The Midnight Computer Wiring 
> Society
>  evolve without a shared environment?

-- 
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

How does moral necessity of The Midnight Computer Wiring 
Society
 evolve without a shared environment?

-Original Message-

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?

Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 10:59 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

On 06/05/2017 09:58 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:

> Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that was our 
> generation(s)'s thing!

Much less use email.  If you want to subvert the youth, use Instagram or 
somesuch.

--

☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

2017-06-05 Thread Pamela McCorduck

Striking for me to go to labs now (for those still exist) and hear the quiet. 
Computer labs in the beginning were rackety. Almost unbearably so. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 5, 2017, at 9:58 AM, Steven A Smith  wrote:
> 
> Today young people needn't leave their books and classrooms for the computer 
> lab, they can simply shift from playing video games and chatting on social 
> media and watching "stupid trick" youtube videos to programming/hacking on 
> their own computer/internet.   Well many of them anyway.  
> 
> Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that was our 
> generation(s)'s thing!
> 
>> On 6/5/17 10:53 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Steve writes:
>>  
>> “I've a friend in his late 70s who was a bit in that froth... he graduated 
>> MIT around 1963 with a degree in Architecture but a hankering and aptitude 
>> for programming (nearly failed his Architecture degree because of all the 
>> time he spent in the computer lab)...”
>>  
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/04/technology/obituary-jean-sammet-software-designer-cobol.html
>>  
>> “In the early 1950s, the computer industry was in its infancy, with no 
>> settled culture or rigid career paths. Lois Haibt, a 
>> contemporary of Ms. Sammet’s at IBM, where Ms. Sammet worked for nearly 
>> three decades, observed, “They took anyone who seemed to have an aptitude 
>> for problem-solving skills — bridge players, chess players, even women.”
>>  
>> Among these aptitudes I would certainly select for the individuals that had 
>> the right priorities and didn’t leave the computer lab for mere lectures and 
>> classwork!  How else can one develop the proper skills?(Oh, I suppose 
>> there are impressionable young people on this list who I should not 
>> contaminate with these subversive ideas.)
>>  
>> Marcus
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

2017-06-05 Thread Owen Densmore

Unfortunately, my experience w/ IBM whilst at Xerox (1970-78) was that a
small cave of IBM 360s were used in a highly secure building while all the
free spirits were using Fortran, Ratfor (Bell labs c-like rational fortran
transpiler), APL, bcpl (on the Altos). We found it easy to work with DEC,
HP, Kodak and other research outfits, but not IBM.

We did have success with them when building a tiny 1Mb ethernet chip ..
which we used in copiers .. the usual ethernets were 10Mb by then. IBM
thought we were crazy. Literally.

And then half-way thru my stay there, TCP/IP exploded on the scene and we
all transferred from our internal PARC suite to it. Took a while to convert
but because we use ethernet from the beginning with home-made protocols,
the conversion wasn't that bad.

In that period, the IBM systems were way slow to join the party. They
preferred various "Star" networks that naturally had a server in the middle.

But that may have been Xerox .. afterall they made the Sigma systems so
those were preferred while the 360s remained behind locked doors. Their
network was sneaker-net with tapes.

When I went to Apple, IBM also literally laughed at Jobs. Ha! Sun also had
difficulty with IBM, they couldn't grok Unix, and "knew better". So we
built proxies to work around them but in isolation.

All this is too bad because they had great tech in certain areas, and
coopetition is a Good Thing.

   -- Owen

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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

Steve writes:



"I've a friend in his late 70s who was a bit in that froth... he graduated MIT 
around 1963 with a degree in Architecture but a hankering and aptitude for 
programming (nearly failed his Architecture degree because of all the time he 
spent in the computer lab)..."


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/04/technology/obituary-jean-sammet-software-designer-cobol.html

"In the early 1950s, the computer industry was in its infancy, with no settled 
culture or rigid career paths. Lois Haibt, a contemporary of Ms. Sammet's at 
IBM, where Ms. Sammet worked for nearly three decades, observed, "They took 
anyone who seemed to have an aptitude for problem-solving skills - bridge 
players, chess players, even women."

Among these aptitudes I would certainly select for the individuals that had the 
right priorities and didn't leave the computer lab for mere lectures and 
classwork!  How else can one develop the proper skills?(Oh, I suppose there 
are impressionable young people on this list who I should not contaminate with 
these subversive ideas.)

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

Today young people needn't leave their books and classrooms for the
computer lab, they can simply shift from playing video games and
chatting on social media and watching "stupid trick" youtube videos to
programming/hacking on their own computer/internet. Well many of them
anyway.

Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that was
our generation(s)'s thing!

On 6/5/17 10:53 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Steve writes:

“I've a friend in his late 70s who was a bit in that froth... he
graduated MIT around 1963 with a degree in Architecture but a
hankering and aptitude for programming (nearly failed his Architecture
degree because of all the time he spent in the computer lab)...”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/04/technology/obituary-jean-sammet-software-designer-cobol.html

“In the early 1950s, the computer industry was in its infancy, with no
settled culture or rigid career paths. Lois Haibt, a contemporary of
Ms. Sammet’s at IBM, where Ms. Sammet worked for nearly three decades,
observed, “They took anyone who seemed to have an aptitude for
problem-solving skills — bridge players, chess players, even women.”

Among these aptitudes I would certainly select for the individuals
that had the right priorities and didn’t leave the computer lab for
mere lectures and classwork! How else can one develop the proper
skills?(Oh, I suppose there are impressionable young people on
this list who I should not contaminate with these subversive ideas.)

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

On 06/05/2017 09:58 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> Most probably don't even know what a computer lab is anymore, that was our 
> generation(s)'s thing!

Much less use email.  If you want to subvert the youth, use Instagram or 
somesuch.

-- 
☣ glen

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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman


Marcus sed:
I wonder what life was like as a working programmer at IBM in those 
days.   I assume it was depressingly regimented and the real hackers who 
could take something like this on were at the ivy league schools?



I've a friend in his late 70s who was a bit in that froth... he 
graduated MIT around 1963 with a degree in Architecture but a hankering 
and aptitude for programming (nearly failed his Architecture degree 
because of all the time he spent in the computer lab)...   He was 
solicited by IBM to come to NMTech as the human "analyst" attached to 
the IBM they had sold to Stirling Colgate who was leading that charge in 
those days.   Before he could actually begin his work, but had already 
relocated, DEC got to Stirling and they dropped IBM for a DEC machine, 
like the gentlemen duelists IBM and DEC were at the time, my friend was 
"gifted" to DEC by IBM... "ah the pleasures of being chattel, or at 
least an indentured servant!".   He stayed with DEC until retirement, 
taking a few years sabbatical to work at a startup which sold out big 
enough to give him room to then singlehandedly build a PASCAL compiler 
and P-Code interpreter for the pre-DOS IBM PC and even declined an offer 
from Bill Gates himself for packaging it with DOS, that included 
royalties... he felt it wasn't finished and besides, he didn't think 
much of Gates and didn't think he was really going anywhere.



One of his more influential professors was Minsky himself... he found 
him a bit "droll" as I remember.



On 6/5/17 10:31 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:


I wonder what life was like as a working programmer at IBM in those 
days.   I assume it was depressingly regimented and the real hackers 
who could take something like this on were at the ivy league schools?


*From:*Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Barry 
MacKichan

*Sent:* Monday, June 05, 2017 9:45 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 


*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman

This triggers some personal memories. I have a letter from her, 
basically a rejection letter, saying I couldn’t have a summer job with 
them (Boston Advanced Programming group) until I finished my second 
year in college. Although I don’t remember ever hearing the name of 
the project, one of the IBMers described it to me as “like Fortran, 
but symbolic rather than purely numeric.” Clearly it was FORMAC.


I always assumed Jean Sammet was a (French) man, but now, 55 years 
later, I see “(Miss)” written before her signature.


By the next summer, I had pretty much dropped my interest in computers 
and spent the summer paddling a canoe to Hudson Bay and it took me 
about 20 years to get back into software.


--Barry

On 4 Jun 2017, at 11:01, Marcus Daniels wrote:

She had the right idea about FORMAC.   Only a reality now with
systems like SymPy 50 years later.   But an evolved FORMAC would
have been better, as it would have been a high performance
numerics language too.

http://www.pl-enthusiast.net/2017/05/24/jean-sammet-a-remembrance/


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Re: [FRIAM] the woman behind the woman