Re: [FRIAM] More CMU News and Uber

[Pamela McCorduck]

My last visit to CMU (April 2018) told me that the university had made its 
peace with this kind of poaching (the article’s dateline is 2015).  Less 
obvious than the wholesale lifting of roboticists has been the wooing of other 
kinds of computer scientists. By “made its peace” I mean that CMU recognizes 
reality, and has contracts for its faculty that allow for a year or two off to 
work in industry, and then time back to clear people’s heads and let them both 
do undirected research and teach (if at dramatically lower salaries). I’m given 
to understand Stanford has the same kind of arrangements.

I’ve also heard that some researchers consider industrial research far superior 
to the academic kind because the fund-raising in academia is so time-consuming, 
not to mention frustrating. The industrial model is the old Bell Labs, where 
bright researchers gladly signed on with the telephone company because they 
were pretty much left alone to do what they wanted, with some possible future 
payoff for the telephone system. That didn’t last forever, and perhaps the 
other won’t either.

Meanwhile, China leaps ahead (maybe not of us, but ahead of itself for sure) 
with stable government funding for research and development, but I don’t know 
what the expectations are for researchers there.

Pamela




> On Jan 10, 2019, at 6:08 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
> 
> Regarding industrial/academic partnerships:
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/transportation/2015/5/19/8622831/uber-self-driving-cars-carnegie-mellon-poached
>  
> 
> 
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
> 
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly 
> 
> 
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 
> 
> 
> Phone (505) 670-9918
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove


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[FRIAM] More CMU News and Uber

[Frank Wimberly]

Regarding industrial/academic partnerships:

https://www.theverge.com/transportation/2015/5/19/8622831/uber-self-driving-cars-carnegie-mellon-poached

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

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Re: [FRIAM] !RE: A million tech jobs unfilled

[Jacqueline Kazil]

The numbers for tech jobs are all over the place. The one that I have heard
most is 1.5 million, but I have also seen everywhere from 500k to 3
million.

Most of the theories of why this is not because of Trump, but because of
issues with education.

There are not enough people in education teaching people technology,
because people can easily go and get 1.5x to 3x their salary in the private
sector. For example -- Uber gutting Carnegie Melon's Researchers:
https://www.theverge.com/transportation/2015/5/19/8622831/uber-self-driving-cars-carnegie-mellon-poached


I sit on the board of the Python Software Foundation. I am putting together
an RFP with others to fund educational initiatives in Python. It will be
coming out later this month or next month.

-Jackie

P.S. Side note about education and python... In Guido's (creator of Python)
proposal to Darpa to fund the development of Python for educational
purposes, he references Logo as a great tool, but limited. That was 2001.
The same year that Netlogo was created (if I have my years right).




On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 4:47 PM Alfredo Covaleda Vélez 
wrote:

> And will remain un-filled for years while "trumpism exists":
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgsVE2RBto8
>
> On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 4:55 PM Nick Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> Sorry, everybody.  Ugh!
>>
>>
>>
>> What I meant to write was, *“At least, ask for a RAISE(!)”.*  You have
>> no idea how envious I am of you all.  Can you IMAGINE the joy I would feel
>> if I learned that there were a million jobs unfilled for cranky former
>> psychology professors who can’t write a ten-word email message without
>> screwing it up!
>>
>>
>>
>> That would be glorious.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Gary
>> Schiltz
>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 04, 2017 1:11 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] A million tech jobs unfilled
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe there will even be a place for techie old farts to work from
>> Ecuador.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 3:04 PM, Nick Thompson 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Friammers,
>>
>>
>>
>> There are apparently a MILLION tech jobs going un-filled in the US –
>> hence the panic in the tech industry concerning the immigration purge.
>> Would this be a time for members of this list to consider seeking a better
>> job?  Or, at least, to ask for a job?
>>
>> Or demand that your boss let you work remotely and move here to Santa Fe
>> where the coffee is good, the air (usually) clean and where you are never
>> more than ten minutes from the head of a hiking trail?
>>
>>
>>
>> Just sayin’
>>
>>
>>
>> N
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>


-- 
Jacqueline Kazil | @jackiekazil

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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Marcus Daniels]

< As to the ethics dimension; you quoted one of Adam's reviewers: "But, when I 
was in school, we always discussed ethical responsibility of the persuader and 
Adams does not. As long as Trump was persuasive he was going to win and that’s 
what matters." >

He’s not persuasive.   His arguments are ridiculous and appeal to the stupid 
and ignorant.   See Alfredo’s post.

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Steven A Smith]

Dave -
First, why /Win Bigly/ recommend. Adams' book is his attempt to 
understand, to deconstruct and analyze, why he "knew" with complete 
certainty that Trump would win simply by observing one of his first 
political rallies. From where did that conviction arise? Why was it so 
absolute? Adams eventually comes to the conclusion that he was so 
certain because he non-consciously, at first, recognized a master 
communicator. Most of the book is a series of anecdotal 'experiments' 
that fleshed out and confirmed his instinctual reaction at the first 
rally. Ultimately it is a cautionary tale: if you can't (my own 
editorial position, if you won't) recognize why — despite all the 
negatives — he won, you will not be able to defeat him next time.
I think I got this point in a post several weeks ago and maybe even 
during the election runup/aftermath.  It opens as many questions as it 
closes however.   I didn't engage (much) then, and am perhaps still (2 
years later?) still trying to form the question.


As to the ethics dimension; you quoted one of Adam's reviewers: 
/"//But, when I was in school, we always discussed ethical 
responsibility of the persuader and Adams does not. As long as Trump 
was persuasive he was going to win and that’s what matters."/ This 
misconstrues what Adams, who is definitely NOT a Trump fan or even 
apologist, is saying.
I appreciate your own explanation of "Win Bigly".  It isn't that 
surprising that many of his reviewers would miss his point in favor of 
some slightly askew but fundamentally different.
A different metaphor: I am standing on a hill watching as a Tanker 
truck filled with, but leaking, 5,000 gallons of gasoline rushing 
headlong towards a family minivan and state the obvious, "that truck 
gonna crush that minivan and immolate every person nearby," and "the 
truck outweighs the minivan by 5 tons, it has no breaks and the truck 
driver is slumped over behind the wheel," and "there is nothing the 
minivan can do about it unless it is a Transformer in mufti." I am not 
saying that the truck crushing the minivan is "what matters." I am in 
fact saying that avoiding the disaster is _what matters_ and we might 
have prevented the disaster if we had recognized and addressed the 
factors that made it inevitable instead of wailing and gnashing teeth 
about the driver being a drunk sex offender working for a company that 
skipped safety inspections ...


Yes to this, I think.  Both the point that avoiding the disaster is at 
least what is most important in the moment, and some kind of 
understanding of how we might have avoided it in the first place has a 
less urgent but  similar if not equal level of importance. If we 
*imagine* that the driver of the 5 ton truck with failed brakes was 
slumped over his wheel in a drunken stupor while reviewing child 
pornography on his electronic tablet, then I suppose being incensed 
about those factors is relevant to the imminent disaster and possible 
future replays by trucks from the same or similar companies with drivers 
with the same or similar questionable habits.


I do believe you might be referring to the common tendency to take the 
facts of a (dire) situation and apply them immediately through the lens 
of your own agenda-structured worldview, letting the current imminent 
incident be fodder for promoting some subset of one's agendas... say 
like what the White House has been doing around the southern border 
"crisis".




Trump's communication skills ensured that he would win as long as the 
opposition focused on the cretin instead of the policy.


I'm surprised you (and Scott Adams?) would call this "communication 
skills"... he IS effective at what I would more aptly call 
*mis*communication.   It is not that he has a complicated or subtle or 
exotic idea to share which he then serializes into a series of 
communications (talking points in a speech, or a series of tweets), but 
rather that he spews something which may or may not be well crafted, but 
has a quality which misdirects the listener in a way that supports is 
*goals* which are very likely far from the ones he is stating overtly.


My father used to say, when watching a rodeo clown, "you have to be 
really good to be that bad!" referring to the apparent clumsy buffoonery 
being played out to distract the recently goaded bull from the 
bullriding goader trying to get up off the dirt and back to the safety 
of the arena fence.




Second, Individualism. The list recently struggled with the idea of 
labeling (categorizing) people and my response to your question and 
observations about individualism will echo some of the labeling 
conversation.


I will resist being labeled an "individualist" because every 
characterization I have seen on this list is grounded, in one way or 
another, on "individual rights." I do not believe that indivdiual's 
have "rights," even the inalienable ones, that are not derived 
entirely from "individual responsibility."
I think I 

[FRIAM] Carnegie Mellon's online High School Computer Science Curriculum

[Frank Wimberly]

Keywords: Python, Graphics, Animation

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/news/carnegie-mellon-launches-high-school-computer-science-curriculum

--
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Marcus Daniels]

David writes:

< I am in fact saying that avoiding the disaster is what matters and we might 
have prevented the disaster if we had recognized and addressed the factors that 
made it inevitable instead of wailing and gnashing teeth about the driver being 
a drunk sex offender working for a company that skipped safety inspections ... >

Progressives complain a lot about superdelegates and advantages that Hillary 
had over Bernie.  Political parties are supposed to do this sort of thing:  
Setup a system so that crazy things don’t happen.  Vet your candidate.   
(Bernie happens not to be crazy, but that populist movement had its fair share 
of wingnuts.)

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Prof David West]

Steve,

First, why *Win Bigly* recommend. Adams' book is his attempt to
understand, to deconstruct and analyze, why he "knew" with complete
certainty that Trump would win simply by observing one of his first
political rallies. From where did that conviction arise? Why was it so
absolute? Adams eventually comes to the conclusion that he was so
certain because he non-consciously, at first, recognized a master
communicator. Most of the book is a series of anecdotal 'experiments'
that fleshed out and confirmed his instinctual reaction at the first
rally. Ultimately it is a cautionary tale: if you can't (my own
editorial position, if you won't) recognize why — despite all the
negatives — he won, you will not be able to defeat him next time.
As to the ethics dimension; you quoted one of Adam's reviewers: *"**But,
when I was in school, we always discussed ethical responsibility of the
persuader and Adams does not. As long as Trump was persuasive he was
going to win and that’s what matters."* This misconstrues what Adams,
who is definitely NOT a Trump fan or even apologist, is saying. A
different metaphor: I am standing on a hill watching as a Tanker truck
filled with, but leaking, 5,000 gallons of gasoline rushing headlong
towards a family minivan and state the obvious, "that truck gonna crush
that minivan and immolate every person nearby," and "the truck outweighs
the minivan by 5 tons, it has no breaks and the truck driver is slumped
over behind the wheel," and "there is nothing the minivan can do about
it unless it is a Transformer in mufti." I am not saying that the truck
crushing the minivan is "what matters." I am in fact saying that
avoiding the disaster is _what matters_ and we might have prevented the
disaster if we had recognized and addressed the factors that made it
inevitable instead of wailing and gnashing teeth about the driver being
a drunk sex offender working for a company that skipped safety
inspections ...
Trump's communication skills ensured that he would win as long as the
opposition focused on the cretin instead of the policy.
Second, Individualism. The list recently struggled with the idea of
labeling (categorizing) people and my response to your question and
observations about individualism will echo some of the labeling
conversation.
I will resist being labeled an "individualist" because every
characterization I have seen on this list is grounded, in one way or
another, on "individual rights." I do not believe that indivdiual's have
"rights," even the inalienable ones, that are not derived entirely from
"individual responsibility."
I am ultimately and absolutely responsible for, not only myself, but,
labeling again, all sentient life. While this seems absurd on its face,
it is directly analogous to the Bodhisattva. (A goal, not an
achievement!)
Corollaries follow: 1) absolute responsibility also means absolute
accountability, including if a mistake is made ("do the crime, do the
time"); 2) a critical dimension of responsibility is acquiring the kind
of 'omniscience' that assures non-attachment; 3) every act (behavior) I
exhibit is both informed and intentional; and 4) the necessary
assumption that everyone else is an "individualist" of this same stripe.
In the above I am an admitted fundamentalist fanatic. However, the
culture I grew up in, both secular and religious, strongly echoes these
ideas. Growing up, I was exposed, pretty much constantly, to the
"Paradise Built in Hell" kind of individual, group, and social behavior.
(Obviously, that was not the only thing to which I was exposed.)
A Geography professor at Macalester College sparked a lifelong interest
in Utopian communities. In addition to the physical environment,I was
interested in the 'mental' environment of values, principles of social
organization, etc.. I have found a lot of other 'echoes' of my concept
of individualism in those that managed to survive multiple generations
(a rarity).
Hope this was on point to what you asked about.

davew


On Thu, Jan 10, 2019, at 9:28 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> Dave -


> This contribution (Adam's "Win Bigly") and Roger's offering of the
> John Boehner (apparent?) endorsement of the American Cannabis Summit
> helps to remind me of the underlying struggle I am having with some of
> the conversation here, and most of what passes for public conversation
> at large (in and out of the media).> Donald is pretty clear, for example, 
> that even when he is claiming
> moral high-ground, that his primary (singular?) goal is to WIN.
> While I've only read summaries and reviews of Adam's "Bigly", I sense
> that his topic is truly (and singularly?) about being persuasive (aka
> Winning?), up to and including hypnotism (or NLP techniques?).> The American 
> Cannabis Summit video Roger linked suggests that there is
> "wealth" to be had by jumping on the Cannabis bandwagon, comparing it
> to Tobacco, among other things.   The message seems to equate "wealth"
> with "leverage over others"...  without 

Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Eric Smith]

Marcus wrote:

  Trump is a denial of service attack.

I love this.  There must be some T-shirt opportunity in it.  One might be able 
to make enough money selling them at an appropriate conference to live 
independently for a year, and do the work one likes without writing grant 
proposals, which cannot be evaluated becuse the US govt is closed.






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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Steven A Smith]

Eric writes:

"I also love his characterization of the core message of Putin:  We are shit. 
You are shit. It’s all bullshit.  What democracy?”

Marcus writes:

If it is all bullshit, then why not steal Putin's stuff?  You know, just for 
shits and grins.   I guess if people are just demoralized and terrified they 
won't.
I would love to think there would be people out there doing just that.   
And the Trumpster himself would seem like an even softer target?   The 
idea among confidence gamers that "the best mark is a conman" (as 
demonstrated in movies like "The Grifters" and "The Sting") suggests 
that bosons like Trump and Putin are ultimately just *huge* attractive 
nuisances, begging to be fleeced.   I can't imagine that they aren't 
subject to everything from petty pilfering (albeit very carefully) to 
huge conspiracies from within.

Trump is a denial of service attack.


Well said!

Even the mainstream media (which I watch way too much of these days, in 
rapt morbid fascination) seems to understand this.   When they were 
debating amongst themselves whether to bother to air Trump's Oval Office 
address, they seemed to understand that *they* are playing into his 
control/distortion of the news cycle/topic. But they seem as powerless 
to stop doing that as I am to quit streaming their inane presentation of 
Trump's inanity into my eyeballs...


I need to adopt/develop a good conspiracy theory I can call my own to 
obsess over... using DoS to fight DoS?  The media (and now congress) 
seem to be responding to Trump with their own DDoS of sorts, pummeling 
him with snark and drang from all sides.


- Steve



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Re: [FRIAM] !RE: A million tech jobs unfilled

[Alfredo Covaleda Vélez]

And will remain un-filled for years while "trumpism exists":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgsVE2RBto8

On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 4:55 PM Nick Thompson 
wrote:

> Sorry, everybody.  Ugh!
>
>
>
> What I meant to write was, *“At least, ask for a RAISE(!)”.*  You have no
> idea how envious I am of you all.  Can you IMAGINE the joy I would feel if
> I learned that there were a million jobs unfilled for cranky former
> psychology professors who can’t write a ten-word email message without
> screwing it up!
>
>
>
> That would be glorious.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Gary
> Schiltz
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 04, 2017 1:11 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] A million tech jobs unfilled
>
>
>
> Maybe there will even be a place for techie old farts to work from Ecuador.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 3:04 PM, Nick Thompson 
> wrote:
>
> Dear Friammers,
>
>
>
> There are apparently a MILLION tech jobs going un-filled in the US – hence
> the panic in the tech industry concerning the immigration purge. Would this
> be a time for members of this list to consider seeking a better job?  Or,
> at least, to ask for a job?
>
> Or demand that your boss let you work remotely and move here to Santa Fe
> where the coffee is good, the air (usually) clean and where you are never
> more than ten minutes from the head of a hiking trail?
>
>
>
> Just sayin’
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Marcus Daniels]

Eric writes: 

"I also love his characterization of the core message of Putin:  We are shit. 
You are shit. It’s all bullshit.  What democracy?”

If it is all bullshit, then why not steal Putin's stuff?  You know, just for 
shits and grins.   I guess if people are just demoralized and terrified they 
won't.   

I also appreciate Steve remarks about the consequences of devolving norms in 
Washington.   I can see folks on CNN talk about the same topics day after day 
after day, distributing the same information.   But it isn't until the Southern 
District of New York gives Cohen a sentence out that it is `real' -- ultimately 
an authority is invoked to move on to the next thing.   The possibility that 
hundreds of lies just keep accumulating and the choice is between rationalizing 
and categorizing them or forgetting them is very strange.   Trump is a denial 
of service attack.

Marcus
 


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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Marcus Daniels]

Steve writes:

< And my original point still (might) hold(s) if we push the ends/means 
justification far enough.   What if having Trump in office somehow *does* 
advance the general welfare of the people (and sentient animals) in the country 
and the world?   Sort of a "back fire" against the more effective, 
institutionalized fascist narcissism of the "shallow state/culture/..."? >

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung

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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Steven A Smith]

Marcus -


< On the other hand, as I always ask conspiracy theorists, "what if 
his presence in this role *serves* the Deep State?" >


To clarify, I’m talking about the hypothesis of a Deep State that 
breaks rules as they need to be broken to advance the general welfare 
of people in the country & world.


I didn't know anyone hypothesized this version...  the people I know who 
run on incessantly about "Deep State" seem to be categorically talking 
about a deeply non-altruistic version.


And my original point still (might) hold(s) if we push the ends/means 
justification far enough.   What if having Trump in office somehow 
*does* advance the general welfare of the people (and sentient animals) 
in the country and the world?   Sort of a "back fire" against the more 
effective, institutionalized fascist narcissism of the "shallow 
state/culture/..."?


The version you reference here, reminds me (quite tangentially) of the 
collective sub-protaganists in John Brunner's 1984 novel "Shockwave 
Rider" where a collective of well meaning individuals set up (Precipice) 
to provide a ubiquitous anonymous ear (Hearing Aid) for anyone "just 
needing to talk".


From Wikipedia's plot summary:

    Precipice turns out to be a Utopian community of a few thousand
   people. The nearest comparison would be an agrarian, cottage
   industry  community
   designed by William Morris
   . Precipice is also
   the home of "Hearing Aid", an anonymous telephone confession service
   accessible to anyone in the country. Hearing Aid is also known as
   the "Ten Nines", after the phone number used to call it:
   999-999-. People call the service, a human operator answers, and
   they simply talk while the operator listens. Some rant, others seek
   sympathy, still others commit suicide while on the phone. Hearing
   Aid's promise is that nobody else, not even the government, will
   hear the call. The only response Hearing Aid gives to a caller is
   "Only I heard that, I hope it helped."

  A million plot twists aside, the bottom line (as I remember it when I 
read it) was that the *collective* knowledge/intelligence of the members 
of Precipice gained by having listened to millions of people talk openly 
to them about their greatest hopes/fears gave them some incredible 
advantage/perspective which supported their Utopian ideals (nominally 
altruistic in the sense you reference above).   As I remember it, this 
consequence was an entirely unintended side-consequence.


  I don’t have any doubt that the kind of Deep State you are 
describing exists, but that reality is more the failure of 
organizations to police themselves than a (sub)organization that has 
become especially autonomous and potent.


I would suppose that any and all criminal organizations which have 
penetrated various parts of "the State" *are* this.   The (alleged?) 
criminal elements of the CIA and/or foreign equivalents (e.g KGB) or 
even the Mexican Federal Police, for example.


Is this another example of the conflation of "absence of evidence" with 
"evidence of absence"?


- Steve


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Re: [FRIAM] Another few ponderances

[Steven A Smith]

Gil -

My most relevant experience is having gone through 2 different periods 
of following a Ketogenic dietary regimen... once roughly 3 months and 
the other roughly 6.   My motives were varied, but included trying to 
experience a *different* metabolic state than the one I've become 
comfortable with in my advanced and overly sedentary years (last 5-10).


   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenesis
   https://paleoleap.com/paleo-guide-to-ketosis/

I'm not referring it to you for any reason in particular than my own 
experience with the significantly different subjective experience I had 
with food WHILE in ketosis.


It is a bit of a commitment... it took me roughly 1 week of modest 
discomfort to get into ketosis and a single carb-binge ( a day or more) 
can kick you back out, requiring another (nearly as long) period of 
transition.  I went through one full-reset the first time because I 
misunderstood that "buttermilk" carried as much lactose (a sugar) as 
regular milk (whole or low-fat notwithstanding).   It also means 
narrowing the spectrum of familiar foods quite a bit.   No carbs means 
no sugar, fruit, starchy vegetables, grains, legumes, milk, etc. but 
does admit (promote) fatty foods like cheese, lean and fatty meats, 
eggs, oil/butter.   As a mostly vegetarian, that meant my standby easy 
go-to meals were omelettes and Cobb salads (often without meat) with at 
least one, often two avocados per day (in the omelette/salad or on the 
side).


The ketogenic metabolism also consumes extra electrolytes as the liver 
actually *produces* water as it converts fats into ketones. This is good 
news for anyone struggling to reduce sodium levels. The avocados 
provided an easy way to get both high-fat and potassium salts and a 
taste/texture treat.   Extra water-consumption is suggested, at least 
during the transition into ketogenesis to help flush the various toxins 
that come with the shift.   I did my two periods over the summer each 
time, and it has become my practice to drink at least two liters of 
water a day laced with electrolytes (potassium/magnesium salts) and 
apple-cider vinegar) as a "gatorade" replacement in the warm seasons. I 
used to crave salt terribly... this undermines my salt-cravings 
entirely.   I find it incredibly satisfying, especially while in 
ketogenesis.


Ketogenesis is prescribed for a wide range of things from kicking off 
weight loss with (sometimes) lasting metabolic differences (i.e. Atkins, 
etc.) to some forms of brain dysfunction (epilepsy, alzheimers), to 
athletic performance (endurance and strength, though not 
muscle-building).  I was lead to it by my daughter and her partner who 
are both performance athletes and paleo-nutritionists.   I found that 
while in ketogenesis, my endurance for physical activity increased 
(after the first week of low-energy, etc. during transition) and my 
hunger was very level... I *never* had any strong desire (other than 
habitual) to gobble down a donut or pizza or a burrito.   When I 
followed the "intermittent fasting" ideal (restricting food consumption 
to 4-6 hours a day),  eating became much more of an abstraction and/or 
entirely instinctual process.  I *enjoyed* my meals, but did not crave 
them or find myself checking the clock...  if anything I'd realize that 
I had entered my "eating window" (nominally 2=6 pm for me) without 
realizing it.   The idea behind the intermittent fasting (which can 
include missing an entire eating cycle) is to keep the liver working 
hard at converting body-fat to ketones.


I would also claim that I felt more mental focus (once past that first 
week).   This is one of the reasons my daughter and partner seek 
ketogenesis, they feel that when they are eating carbs, they often 
experience a brain-fog.    My own experience is not as stark, but I feel 
that self-analysis of mental states is VERY subjective.   In general my 
transition into/out of ketogenesis was much less dramatic than is often 
reported.  The "keto flu" going in has been reported lasting up to 2 
weeks and returning to carbs is often reported to generate "bloating", 
"brain fog", etc.    My experiences of the transitions were very mild 
compared to those reported by others.


I don't know if this helps you think about your own metabolic responses 
to various foods and exercise experiences, but I find that kind of 
introspection/self-experimentation fascinating.


- Steve

On 1/10/19 10:07 AM, ∄ uǝʃƃ wrote:

 From what I've experienced of fasting (more than 36 hours ... not just 
skipping a meal now and then), I've gotten an energy *boost* from it.  I do 
crash harder after I finally do eat, though.  Some of the pop-sci literature 
also suggests we might enter something like a starvation state if we exhaust 
the glucogen stores in the liver.  And if you exercise before eating, then 
you're supposedly getting that glucose sugar from your liver.

Most of the actual science literature is still too far removed from day to 

Re: [FRIAM] Another few ponderances

[Marcus Daniels]

Glen writes:

< It's interesting because I can't distinguish between a mental boost and a 
physical boost, from exercise, especially. >

It's more a lifting of any feelings of despair that have accumulated through 
the day.   I suspect testosterone is involved.  Also I tend to increasingly 
specialize on to some sub-sub-topic during a workday and try to get closure on 
one such sub-sub-topic a day.Assuming that does happen, it is hard for me 
to reset on a new topic without intervening exercise or sleep.   Caffeine is 
fine for keeping one trajectory going.

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] Another few ponderances

[uǝlƃ ☣]

It's interesting because I can't distinguish between a mental boost and a 
physical boost, from exercise, especially.  It's mostly true of other boosts 
(from drugs like caffeine, or the "adrenaline" surge of a good argument).  But 
mental/physical seem slightly more distinct under the influence of the other 
boosts.  Exercise boosts seem equally somatic and cognitive.  But this could 
easily be some sort of illusion where a physical boost swamps the mental, or 
vice versa (e.g. with alcohol on board, you *think* your body is doing what you 
told it to, but it's not).

Tiredness is, oddly to me, orthogonal to the physical boost.  The orthogonality 
doesn't show up in running because (I think) that's just a very repetitive 
action that decouples your conscious and autonomic awareness.  So, after 
*running* for an hour, tiredness = no physical boost.  But after an hour of 
good calisthenics, tiredness = physical boost.  It's unclear to me how 
"aerobic" calisthenics is, though.  Yeah, you breathe hard.  But it's very 
controlled breathing.  When running [†], I have some control over breathing.  
But it's mostly just to breathe as much as possible without letting my body get 
into an "out of breath" state.  (I.e. breathe deep and paced to the speed of 
the run, jog, cross country, sprints).  With calisthenics, the breathing 
regimen changes depending on the thing you're trying to do.

I speculate that the physical boost has something to do with the stabilizer 
muscles, which are heavily used in calisthencs.  I sprint and jog on very 
uniform surfaces (track, street).  But I "cross country" on irregular surfaces, 
to whatever extent I can ... grass, parks, trails, etc.  So, my speculation 
might be testable.  Is a runner more "energized" after a cross country run than 
a street run?

[†] This is from memory.  I quit running a couple of years ago to focus on 
weights and calisthenics.

On 1/10/19 10:30 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I’d say the mental boost (from exercise) doesn’t kick-in until 45 minutes of 
> sustained, reasonably-intense aerobic effort for me, and improves from there 
> up until the point I get physically tired.  The mania passes in about an 
> hour.   This is probably not just energy from the liver since I work out at 
> night.   If for some reason I have to mental work all night, only a moderate 
> amount of caffeine in addition will do that.   The combo is almost like a new 
> day.

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] Another few ponderances

[Marcus Daniels]

I’d say the mental boost (from exercise) doesn’t kick-in until 45 minutes of 
sustained, reasonably-intense aerobic effort for me, and improves from there up 
until the point I get physically tired.  The mania passes in about an hour.   
This is probably not just energy from the liver since I work out at night.   If 
for some reason I have to mental work all night, only a moderate amount of 
caffeine in addition will do that.   The combo is almost like a new day.

From: Friam  on behalf of Gillian Densmore 

Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Date: Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 11:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Another few ponderances

AAAH that might explain it! Yesterday I tried just a light meal (half bagle and 
PB) before going to planet  fitness for cardio less hyper afterwords. When I 
got to wedtech thought I might want a diet coke...and basicaly found not at all!
Hmmm...supposedly if you can concomitantly hit a flow like place some amount of 
bad fats gets turned into energy.I haven't a clue what the science says these 
days because that was from one of Maslows works back in the 90's if I am 
remembering correctly.


On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 10:07 AM ∄ uǝʃƃ 
mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
From what I've experienced of fasting (more than 36 hours ... not just skipping 
a meal now and then), I've gotten an energy *boost* from it.  I do crash harder 
after I finally do eat, though.  Some of the pop-sci literature also suggests 
we might enter something like a starvation state if we exhaust the glucogen 
stores in the liver.  And if you exercise before eating, then you're supposedly 
getting that glucose sugar from your liver.

Most of the actual science literature is still too far removed from day to day 
living to be very meaningful, in my opinion.  Although I just noticed Marcus' 
list and haven't followed those links, yet.


On 1/10/19 8:36 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> (Yes I know that's not really how to use ponder)
>
> Recently I decided to take my health way more earnestly and are genuinly
> curius about something if anyone has some ideas:
>
> What is it about cardio after a certain amount that makes it energizing?
> For example Monday after I wanted to see how long I could do a stationary
> bike. I felt pretty hyper. I didn't have anything other than 2 cups of
> coffee before then.
>
> I have also found I don't particularly crave cookies, and to some degree
> don't crave coke nearly as much.
>
> Lastly: Man, something about fruit juice recently just..really hits the
> spot.
>
> Just curious..


--
∄ uǝʃƃ


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Another few ponderances

[Gillian Densmore]

AAAH that might explain it! Yesterday I tried just a light meal (half bagle
and PB) before going to planet  fitness for cardio less hyper afterwords.
When I got to wedtech thought I might want a diet coke...and basicaly found
not at all!
Hmmm...supposedly if you can concomitantly hit a flow like place some
amount of bad fats gets turned into energy.I haven't a clue what the
science says these days because that was from one of Maslows works back in
the 90's if I am remembering correctly.


On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 10:07 AM ∄ uǝʃƃ  wrote:

> From what I've experienced of fasting (more than 36 hours ... not just
> skipping a meal now and then), I've gotten an energy *boost* from it.  I do
> crash harder after I finally do eat, though.  Some of the pop-sci
> literature also suggests we might enter something like a starvation state
> if we exhaust the glucogen stores in the liver.  And if you exercise before
> eating, then you're supposedly getting that glucose sugar from your liver.
>
> Most of the actual science literature is still too far removed from day to
> day living to be very meaningful, in my opinion.  Although I just noticed
> Marcus' list and haven't followed those links, yet.
>
>
> On 1/10/19 8:36 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> > (Yes I know that's not really how to use ponder)
> >
> > Recently I decided to take my health way more earnestly and are genuinly
> > curius about something if anyone has some ideas:
> >
> > What is it about cardio after a certain amount that makes it energizing?
> > For example Monday after I wanted to see how long I could do a stationary
> > bike. I felt pretty hyper. I didn't have anything other than 2 cups of
> > coffee before then.
> >
> > I have also found I don't particularly crave cookies, and to some degree
> > don't crave coke nearly as much.
> >
> > Lastly: Man, something about fruit juice recently just..really hits the
> > spot.
> >
> > Just curious..
>
>
> --
> ∄ uǝʃƃ
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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> FRIAM-COMIC 
> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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Re: [FRIAM] Another few ponderances

[Gillian Densmore]

Oh awesome! thanks Marcos!

On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 10:03 AM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> There are lots of papers on this.  Here’s are some:
>
>
>
> https://www.pnas.org/content/108/7/3017
>
> https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/316648
>
>
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306452209012019?via%3Dihub
>
>
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0031938411003088?via%3Dihub
>
>
>
> *From: *Friam  on behalf of Gillian Densmore <
> gil.densm...@gmail.com>
> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Date: *Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 9:37 AM
> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject: *[FRIAM] Another few ponderances
>
>
>
> What is it about cardio after a certain amount that makes it energizing?
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Marcus Daniels]

Steve writes:

< On the other hand, as I always ask conspiracy theorists, "what if his 
presence in this role *serves* the Deep State?"  >

To clarify, I’m talking about the hypothesis of a Deep State that breaks rules 
as they need to be broken to advance the general welfare of people in the 
country & world.   I don’t have any doubt that the kind of Deep State you are 
describing exists, but that reality is more the failure of organizations to 
police themselves than a (sub)organization that has become especially 
autonomous and potent.

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] Another few ponderances

[∄ uǝʃƃ]

From what I've experienced of fasting (more than 36 hours ... not just skipping 
a meal now and then), I've gotten an energy *boost* from it.  I do crash harder 
after I finally do eat, though.  Some of the pop-sci literature also suggests 
we might enter something like a starvation state if we exhaust the glucogen 
stores in the liver.  And if you exercise before eating, then you're supposedly 
getting that glucose sugar from your liver.

Most of the actual science literature is still too far removed from day to day 
living to be very meaningful, in my opinion.  Although I just noticed Marcus' 
list and haven't followed those links, yet.


On 1/10/19 8:36 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> (Yes I know that's not really how to use ponder)
> 
> Recently I decided to take my health way more earnestly and are genuinly
> curius about something if anyone has some ideas:
> 
> What is it about cardio after a certain amount that makes it energizing?
> For example Monday after I wanted to see how long I could do a stationary
> bike. I felt pretty hyper. I didn't have anything other than 2 cups of
> coffee before then.
> 
> I have also found I don't particularly crave cookies, and to some degree
> don't crave coke nearly as much.
> 
> Lastly: Man, something about fruit juice recently just..really hits the
> spot.
> 
> Just curious..


-- 
∄ uǝʃƃ


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Another few ponderances

[Marcus Daniels]

There are lots of papers on this.  Here’s are some:

https://www.pnas.org/content/108/7/3017
https://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/316648
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306452209012019?via%3Dihub
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0031938411003088?via%3Dihub

From: Friam  on behalf of Gillian Densmore 

Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Date: Thursday, January 10, 2019 at 9:37 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] Another few ponderances

What is it about cardio after a certain amount that makes it energizing?

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Who knew a good Coors head could make this shutdown hillarius

[∄ uǝʃƃ]

I've run into the Oregon branch (WACO) a few times: 
http://www.worldoregon.org/, mostly in meetup groups of hackers donating their 
time to work on public works projects (e.g. building UIs for the many open 
databases here in Oregon).  And this branch seems pretty focused on exposing 
people to issues they may not see much of in our more myopic press outlets 
(like the local news).

But I have zero experience with the larger conglomerate, WACA.  Depending on 
how you feel about the Jonathan Haidt, right wing "no free speech in 
universities" BS, we might be able to infer something from this:

  https://wacphila.org/events/economic-nationalism

A "no platform" SJW might infer that WACA is abetting Bannon's right-wing 
rhetoric by letting him talk.  I honestly don't know where I land on that, in 
general.  In this particular case, though, I have NO clue why anyone would 
listen to anything Bannon has to say.

But the WACA vs. WACO thing might be akin to the US Chamber of Commerce vs. 
local chambers of commerce.  I've found the local ones to be non-partisan and 
empathetic towards all manner of social issues, whereas the US one seems like a 
bunch of rich people building big walls to protect their privilege.  So, who 
knows?

On 1/9/19 8:15 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> I'm wondering if anyone here is familiar with them?   It is a mostly casual 
> curiosity on my part, lead there by my maunderings about whether I'm 
> supporting right-wing whackos with my beer $$ (when I buy Shiner).

-- 
∄ uǝʃƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Steven A Smith]

Marcus Daniels wrote:


If there were a deep state it would have disappeared this guy.   
Hierarchical systems are way too efficient.


I'd like to (and sometimes do) believe that Trump & Co's apparent 
incompetence and general foolishness reflects a lack of deep conspiracy 
ON the Right, as well as his continued survival (not shot, poisoned, or 
pushed from the open door of Marine 1) suggests there is no Deep State.


On the other hand, as I always ask conspiracy theorists, "what if his 
presence in this role *serves* the Deep State?"


While many (most) conspiracists might applaud Trump's ascendency and 
consider it a victory over their favorite bogeymen, I can't see anything 
that would suggest that if such bogeymen actually do exist that they 
wouldn't be *using* this train-wreck for their own purposes.   And is 
there a singular monolithic bogeyman called "Deep State" or is it 
factionated into many subgroups who are right now in their evil lair 
fighting over whether or when or how to "neutralize" or "liquidate" 
Agent Orange?  In this parallel universe, how many times has one agent 
of the deep state interfered with the Sniper in the Clocktower...  Spy 
vs Spy style?


The *left-wing* CS types who are sure he's in Putin's pocket don't seem 
to recognize that Putin (and many others with less profile) might be 
using Trump (and others with less profile) as blunt instruments... just 
softening us up by stirring us up... with little if any regard for the 
specific puppeteering often attributed to them?  While Trump's attempted 
withdrawal of troops from Syria *might* have been a response to direct 
Putin-Whispering or Erdogan-Whispering, it might have just been a whim 
based on his motivated but under-informed style of isolationism.


- Sieve



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[FRIAM] Ponderances of health

[Gillian Densmore]

I am wrong I had another ponderance.
Another part I am curious about..Are the hopefully healthier cravings: like
fruits and vegitables. But then on other side at WedTech I didn't really
want a coke as much as I thought. Tea really hit the spot...

I guess I am fealling curius what it might be about getting into taking my
health much earnestly where  their is kind of a sense of moment. Any sports
psychology wonks have some ideas?

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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Marcus Daniels]

Steve writes:

< I happen to be reading Rebecca Solnit's "A Paradise Built in Hell" which is a 
deep dive into the theme of how people (sometimes) show their best while 
suffering great disasters.   Particularly in the area of community spirit and 
synergistic cooperation.  She anecdotally and analytically reviews disasters 
from the 1906 San Francisco earthquake to Katrina, focusing *mostly* on the 
positive examples of people stepping up individually and collectively to show 
demonstrate/discover their "best selves".   In this, she speaks of the tension 
between "Seeking a better life" and "Seeking a better world".   It is suggested 
that in the face of disaster, the latter is evidently the most efficient route 
to the former, and on the whole, the behaviour of individuals in those contexts 
suggests that such is self-evident.   She acknowledges that there are plenty of 
opportunists who *do not* apprehend that their "best interests" are supported 
by cooperation, but instead notice that the fragility of their context allows 
them to "exploit" that fragility, and in fact seem convinced that it is not 
only an opportunity but an unction. >

There’s a more cynical interpretation of positive disaster behavior.  Because 
of the way human memory works, everyone understands that *many* people will 
remember in vivid detail all kinds of nuances about a crisis.   So it is of 
benefit to be helpful, because others will remember that.   It does not 
necessarily mean that anything will change about how an otherwise Grinch-like 
person will behave after the crisis.   Goodwill is a currency and a crisis is 
when one can buy low.   Also it may just be collectively necessary in some 
circumstances for everyone to cooperate, and even a completely selfish person 
can see that.

Marcus

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[FRIAM] Another few ponderances

[Gillian Densmore]

(Yes I know that's not really how to use ponder)

Recently I decided to take my health way more earnestly and are genuinly
curius about something if anyone has some ideas:

What is it about cardio after a certain amount that makes it energizing?
For example Monday after I wanted to see how long I could do a stationary
bike. I felt pretty hyper. I didn't have anything other than 2 cups of
coffee before then.

I have also found I don't particularly crave cookies, and to some degree
don't crave coke nearly as much.

Lastly: Man, something about fruit juice recently just..really hits the
spot.

Just curious..

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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Steven A Smith]

Dave -

This contribution (Adam's "Win Bigly") and Roger's offering of the John 
Boehner (apparent?) endorsement of the American Cannabis Summit helps to 
remind me of the underlying struggle I am having with some of the 
conversation here, and most of what passes for public conversation at 
large (in and out of the media).


Donald is pretty clear, for example, that even when he is claiming moral 
high-ground, that his primary (singular?) goal is to WIN.   While I've 
only read summaries and reviews of Adam's "Bigly", I sense that his 
topic is truly (and singularly?) about being persuasive (aka Winning?), 
up to and including hypnotism (or NLP techniques?).


The American Cannabis Summit video Roger linked suggests that there is 
"wealth" to be had by jumping on the Cannabis bandwagon, comparing it to 
Tobacco, among other things.   The message seems to equate "wealth" with 
"leverage over others"...  without much more than a passing nod to the 
actual enrichment of lives (individually and collectively).   Without 
debating whether the widespread legalization and commercialization of 
Cannabis implies/supports some "greater good"


I happen to be reading Rebecca Solnit's "A Paradise Built in Hell" which 
is a deep dive into the theme of how people (sometimes) show their best 
while suffering great disasters. Particularly in the area of community 
spirit and synergistic cooperation.  She anecdotally and analytically 
reviews disasters from the 1906 San Francisco earthquake to Katrina, 
focusing *mostly* on the positive examples of people stepping up 
individually and collectively to show demonstrate/discover their "best 
selves".   In this, she speaks of the tension between "Seeking a better 
life" and "Seeking a better world".   It is suggested that in the face 
of disaster, the latter is evidently the most efficient route to the 
former, and on the whole, the behaviour of individuals in those contexts 
suggests that such is self-evident.   She acknowledges that there are 
plenty of opportunists who *do not* apprehend that their "best 
interests" are supported by cooperation, but instead notice that the 
fragility of their context allows them to "exploit" that fragility, and 
in fact seem convinced that it is not only an opportunity but an 
unction.   In their zero (or negative) sum model, the only way to get 
what they need is to take it (or hoard it) from someone else, and 
*sharing* is deeply suspect at best and


ON the topic of "persuasion" vs "ethics", one of Adam's reviewers 
reflected: "But, when I was in school, we always discussed ethical 
responsibility of the persuader and Adams does not. As long as Trump was 
persuasive he was going to win and that’s what matters."   I suppose 
this is the tension I often experience... between that which is 
"efficacioius" in a (deliberately?) limited context, and that which has 
a larger context and is nominally discussed in terms of ethical and 
moral frameworks.


I was raised in various cultures of "rugged individualism" which biases 
me toward what I perceive to be a *natural/instinctual* state of "me 
first".   I would claim that *fortunately*, I grew (over many decades 
now) into an awareness that while that might be the default position to 
retreat to when all available strategies for a larger collective 
(family, neighborhood, tribe, etc.) seem hopeless or negative, that 
those collectives are a deeply adaptive aspect of life's evolution.   
Many organisms are capable of living in relative isolation from members 
of their own group, but do seem to thrive in groups of their own type 
but also enhanced by modest diversity (forests, savannahs, blooms, pods, 
hives,  tribes, schools, flocks, etc.).


I'm rambling/rattling on (as usual) here, but I'd like to hear your 
(DaveW) perspective on this topic, since you have spoken fairly directly 
to the ideals of individualism.


What is the case (from your perspective) to the complement to rabid 
individualism?   Does the individualists bogeymen of collectivism or in 
the (relative) extreme Globalism have *any* redeeming qualities, or is 
the very idea of participating in larger and larger collectives 
(hierarchical or heterarchical) completely antithetical to the survival 
and enrichment of the individual?


- SteveS

On 1/10/19 6:40 AM, Prof David West wrote:
Trump is coming up frequently in this "abduction" thread, especially 
with regard communication and rhetoric.A very good, quite 
enlightening, book about this is Scott Adams' (yes, the Dilbert 
cartoonist) /_Win Bigly_/.


davew


On Wed, Jan 9, 2019, at 9:03 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:


Steve Smith wrote:


I sense frustration in many of us when we try to talk about our 
various topics of specialty (as amatuers or professionals) with our 
significantly educated (but in other (sub)disciplines) 
lay-colleagues.   It seems that in the attempt to be more precise or 
to make evident our own lexicons for a particular subject that we end 
up tangling our 

Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Marcus Daniels]

If there were a deep state it would have disappeared this guy.   Hierarchical 
systems are way too efficient.


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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Prof David West]

Trump is coming up frequently in this "abduction" thread, especially
with regard communication and rhetoric.A very good, quite
enlightening, book about this is Scott Adams' (yes, the Dilbert
cartoonist) *_Win Bigly_*.
davew


On Wed, Jan 9, 2019, at 9:03 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> Steve Smith wrote:


>  


> I sense frustration in many of us when we try to talk about our
> various topics of specialty (as amatuers or professionals) with our
> significantly educated (but in other (sub)disciplines) lay-colleagues.
> It seems that in the attempt to be more precise or to make evident our
> own lexicons for a particular subject that we end up tangling our webs
> in this tower of Complexity Babel (Babble?) we roam, colliding
> occasionally here and there.> Right, Steve.


>  


> I wouldn’t have it any other way.  It is one of the few places on
> earth where, fwiw, people are struggling with the problem.  Fighting
> the good fight against semantic hegemony.>  


> Nick


>  


> Nicholas S. Thompson


> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology


> Clark University


> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/


>  


> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Steven
> A Smith *Sent:* Wednesday, January 09, 2019 12:20 PM *To:*
> friam@redfish.com *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction>  


> 


>> Nick writes:


>>  


>> < Ok, Marcus, I am standing my ground as a realist here: ():-[) >


>>  


>> There you go trying to claim semantics for terms in a public
>> dictionary again.   (That’s an example of taking ground, like in my
>> Go example.)Doing so constrains what can even be *said*.   It
>> puts the skeptic in the position of having to deconstruct every
>> single term, and thus be a called terms like smartass[1] when they
>> force the terms to be used in other contexts where the definition
>> doesn’t work.   A culture itself is laden with thousands of de-
>> facto definitions that steer meaning back to conventional (e.g.
>> racist and sexist) expectations.   To even to begin to question
>> these expectations requires having some power base, or safe space,
>> to work from.> I think this is the "genius" of Trump's campaign and 
>> tenure... he
> operates from his own (and often ad-hoc) Lexicon and that reported 39%
> stable base of his seems happy to just rewrite their own dictionary to
> match his.   That seems to be roughly Kellyanne's and Sarah's only
> role (and skill?), helping those who want to keep their dictionaries
> up to date with his shifting use of terms and concepts up to date.> It has 
> been noted that Trump's presidency has been most significant
> for helping us understand how much of our government operates on norms
> and a shared vocabulary.   He de(re?)constructs those with virtually
> every tweet.   While I find it quite disturbing on many levels, I also
> find it fascinating.   I've never been one to take the media or
> politicians very seriously, but he has demonstrated quite thoroughly
> why one not only shouldn't but ultimately *can't*.>> In this case, you assert 
> that some discussants are software engineers
>> and that distinguishes them from your category.  A discussant of that
>> (accused / implied) type says he is not a member of that set and that
>> it is not even a credible set.  Another discussant says the activity
>> of such a group is a skill and if someone lacks it, they could just
>> as well gain it while having other co-equal skills too.   So there is
>> already reason to doubt the categorization you are suggesting.> I took 
>> Nick's point to be that the Metaphors that those among us who
> spend a significant amount of time writing (or desiging) computer
> systems is alien to him, and that despite making an attempt when he
> first came here to develop the skills (and therefore the culture), he
> feels he has failed and the lingua franca of computer (types, geeks,
> ???) is foreign to him.   Here on FriAM, I feel we speak a very rough
> Pidgen (not quite developed enough to be a proper Creole?) admixture
> of computer-geek, physics, sociology, psychology, linguistics,
> philosophy, mathematics, hard-science-other-than physics, etc.> I sense 
> frustration in many of us when we try to talk about our
> various topics of specialty (as amatuers or professionals) with our
> significantly educated (but in other (sub)disciplines) lay-colleagues.
> It seems that in the attempt to be more precise or to make evident our
> own lexicons for a particular subject that we end up tangling our webs
> in this tower of Complexity Babel (Babble?) we roam, colliding
> occasionally here and there.> - Sieve


>>  


>>


>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at
>> cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back
>> to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC
>> 

[FRIAM] odd aspect of the current day

[Roger Critchlow]

For the past week or two, my reading in the Washington Post has been
punctuated by an ad featuring a picture of John Boehner looking much better
than he did a few years ago, smiling enigmatically, wearing an orange tie
with blue polka dots, an American flag peeking over his shoulder.  He's in
the sidebar, he's between the article leads in the email summaries, he's
everywhere.

The ad goes here, https://pro.nicinvestorsinfo.com/p/CIRLNC39V/LCIRUBGA/

-- rec --

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Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction

[Roger Critchlow]

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

-- rec --

On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 11:23 PM Steven A Smith  wrote:

> Marcus -
>
> Thanks for that deep dive into the (lack of) structure of Trump's
> bombast.   I'm not sure that the 39% (number varies) of his base are simply
> deplorable breadth-never parsers, though it would seem they would have to
> be to not trip over his rhetoric.   Some (maybe even members of this list?)
> may support him as "the Great Disruptor" while seeing entirely through his
> very poorly crafted rhetoric?
>
> More importantly to me, is the effect it has on the larger population, on
> the norms and expectations of voters/citizens and other political
> operators.I'd like to think of Trump as one big fat ugly dose of
> live-vaccine which has put the country into a harsh reaction which will
> ultimately leave it with some immunity to his particular style of
> whackadoodlery.   On the other hand, we may sustain systemic damage that
> leaves this country lamed until our eventual and inevitable demise (as a
> country/culture/???).
>
> - Steve
>
> PS  does anyone know what this rough 39% figure is *of*?  Is it 39% of
> citizens, eligible voters, voters in the last election, poll
> subjects(whose?)?   I'm not even sure where I get the number, it seems to
> be the most common number thrown around in many situations  Sometimes
> it is a round 40% and I think sometimes more like 37%... but it doesn't
> seem to have varied much for quite a while.  Seems like it may be more
> apocryphal than real?
>
>
> On 1/9/19 12:49 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> Steve writes:
>
> < I think this is the "genius" of Trump's campaign and tenure... he
> operates from his own (and often ad-hoc) Lexicon and that reported 39%
> stable base of his seems happy to just rewrite their own dictionary to
> match his.  It has been noted that Trump's presidency has been most
> significant for helping us understand how much of our government operates
> on norms and a shared vocabulary.   He de(re?)constructs those with
> virtually every tweet. >
>
> Deconstructing a complex predicate involves taking out sub-predicates and
> sub-sub predicates and examining all of the facts that cause each predicate
> to hold or not.Trump’s `leadership’ involves ripping out the top level
> predicates and simply defining sub-predicates to hold or not depending on
> his impulses at that minute of the day.   Yes, it is his correct
> recognition that humans, especially the deplorables, aren’t very good with
> depth first search.   He’s got a depth cutoff of about 1, as do they.
>
> Marcus
>
> 
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>
> 
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>

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