Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[David Eric Smith]

Jon, hi,

I have owed you a response for a long time.  I think I kept imagining that, if 
I waited long enough, I would learn enough about a couple of things you asked 
to be able to understand the questions and perhaps answer usefully.  At this 
stage I think I am giving up any systematic hope of learning anything, and will 
consider myself lucky when random accidents result in my having learned 
something, which I find out about after the fact.  

What triggers my answer today is a specific question that was in some other 
email by you that I haven’t found, about what hypergraphs are and whether they 
are “a topology”, as I think you said it.  I didn’t understand the question, I 
think because I don’t have a mathematician’s familiarity for just what scope 
the term “topology” is allowed to cover.  So I know a few things from 
coursework, but they are just specific cases.  A friend has tried to get me to 
read this book:
https://www.amazon.com/Topology-Through-Inquiry-AMS-Textbooks/dp/1470452766 

which one of his junior colleagues is trying to walk him through to get him to 
understand a bit better.  Someday I will give time to properly read in it….

Anyway, what came up today was a Sean Carroll interview with Wolfram, which 
fronts hypergraphs as Wolfram’s base-level abstraction.  It is a couple hours 
long, so I will listen to it when I have a couple hours….
https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2021/07/12/155-stephen-wolfram-on-computation-hypergraphs-and-fundamental-physics/
 

Maybe Wolfram will provide a more compact sense of the “why” and not just the 
definition.  The little bit, of general reading, that I tried to do but did not 
need for my particular applications, was in this:
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4757-3714-1_3 


For me, a hypergraph is just a natural representation for a variety of models 
of transitions that involve joint transformations.  I think there is another 
way of capturing dualities between states and transitions in what are called 
“bond graphs”, which it turns out Alan Perelson did some work on when he was 
young.  I think various projections of the even larger generality permitted 
within bond graphs will reduce you to hypergraph models of the relation of 
states to transitions.  As I would ordinarily use the term, a hypergraph could 
be said to “have” a topology in the usual discrete sense of characterizing 
types of nodes and links and then giving a table with their adjacencies.  But I 
don’t know what it means to say it “is” a topology.  Apologies that I do not 
know how to engage better with what you are trying to get me to understand.

Your other email that I saved because I hadn’t answered follows, so I will try 
to do that one now too.  I will clip and lard, in reply below:

> On May 6, 2021, at 1:44 AM, jon zingale  wrote:

> 1. Food webs were analyzed as weighted graphs with the obvious Markov
> chain interpretation[ρ]. Each edge effectively summarizing the complex
> predator-prey interactions found at level 2, but without the plethora
> of ODEs to solve.
> 
> 2. N-species Lotka-Volterra, while being a jumble of equations, offered
> dynamics. Here, one could get insight into how the static edge values
> of level 1 were in fact fluctuating values in n-dimensional phase
> space. But still, one is working with an aggregate model where species
> is summarized wholly by population count.

> 2'. "There is still an algebra of operation of reactions, but it is
> simpler than the algebra of rules, and mostly about counting."
> 
> I am not entirely sure that I follow the distinction. Am I far off in
> seeing an analogy here to the differences found between my one and two
> above?

I don’t think that relation, but one that goes in the other direction from 
heterogeneity to homogenetty.  I will say the specific thing I mean, because 
those last few words could have meant anything:

The order-of-application dependence in rules seems to me capable of vast 
diversity of kinds.  Rules perform changes of patterns in context, but the 
presence of the context as part of that relation implies that rules are also 
creative.  To be specific: in chemistry, which is the best-constrained case, a 
rule takes a collection of atomic centers and a bond configuration, keeps the 
atomic centers, and replaces the initial bond configuration with some new one.  
But these motifs of atoms and bond configurations occur within the context of 
entire molecules, which can contain much else besides the part that the rule is 
conditioned on or transforms.  So by changing some bonds in a molecule and 
preserving the rest of the molecule, the rule actually can create entirely new 
patterns that draw partly on the 

Re: [FRIAM] Freedom Phone

[Gillian Densmore]

Thanks Glen! Cool!

On Mon, Jul 19, 2021, 6:23 PM uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:

> Well, I'll waste the e-ink to plug the Teracube 2e again:
> https://myteracube.com/pages/teracube-2e
>
> I've had mine for quite awhile, now. It works very well. It's not a high
> end phone. But I can pop in a sd card for data transfer, it's got 2 sim
> slots, replaceable battery, etc. No physical keyboard, though. I like that,
> too, but gave up on it awhile back.
>
> On 7/19/21 3:56 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> > Personally I want a phone with  archaic things like: a physical
> keyboard. and battery slot to put a separate one . And gasp wireless
> charging baked in. I love the phoneS I have. But think things like battery,
> keyboard and wireless charging are more important than having an american
> flag and expensive person to plug the phone.
>
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
-  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Collective sensemaking

[Pieter Steenekamp]

Thanks for the replies gentlemen.

Am I correct in asserting that the gist of what you guys say about this
ground truth exercise is that if you don't trust the referees you can't
trust the result? If yes, I'll agree with you on that point.

But, of course, that still does not change my mind about Bret and Heather,
I like their views and consider them honest brokers and will be monitoring
this process used to fact-check them; I'm not stubborn, if the results of
the process indicate that they are unreliable then I'll change my mind.

Pieter


On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 at 04:08, David Eric Smith  wrote:

> It is generous (and good), to try to reduce this to something as clean as
> logical fallacies.
>
> Your earlier email was really to the point, though, about motives.
>
> Neither here nor there, an anecdote from my own experience.
>
> I had not heard of any of these people, as I normally don’t, until Bill
> Maher had BW and HH on his show.  It is a pity that Bill badly enough needs
> the persona of the cynical skeptic that some subset of his commitments are
> contrarian just, it seems, for its own sake.
>
> I remember the following to assertions from them.  (Paraphrased, but
> should be close):
> BW: (about whether the virus was in some way manmade) “Isn’t it suspicious
> that most people have infected each other inside, yet bats live outside.”
> I immediately brought to mind Spock’s line to Kirk in one of the 1960s
> Star Trek episodes (the one about Nomad) “A dazzling display of logic,
> captain.”
>
> A poor fact-checker would be stuck on that one: Bats, after all, _do_ live
> outside, and people _do_ mostly infect each other with COVID inside.  Hmm.
> Now what?
>
> Then on why they wouldn’t take vaccines:
> BW and HH jointly: Our ancestors didn’t evolve with vaccines, so we should
> expect them to be dangerous in unknown ways.
>
> It is interesting that the only biological component of the mRNA vaccines
> — mRNA in the medium or injected into cells — is the one thing we _have_
> been living with since we were bacteria.  That’s even before the origin
> Stone Age.  The parts of the vaccines that are new are the chemical parts:
> the delivery vehicle and the adjuvants.  If there were to be real
> surprises, I would expect those to come from those.  But of course a
> one-time chemical exposure is limited in its effect by dose and whatever
> the chemical does.  I continue to be interested in what the adjuvants are
> in these vaccines, and what is known of their history, but haven’t taken
> time to read.  A source is here:
> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.589833/full
>
> That all becomes interesting now, in light of the fact that the mRNA
> vaccines are the _simplest_ RNA-carrying vaccines we have ever had; much
> simpler than viral vector vaccines.  I wondered if there might be some
> advantage from having so little uncontrolled diversity and complexity.
> Right now, it appears that both of the adenovirus vaccines (AZ and J) may
> have an identifiable incidence of Gillian-Barre at about the 10e-5 level,
> which would put it at about 4x the annual flu vaccine’s correlation.  That
> is not settled yet, but the experts think there might be one.  Yet, with
> many more doses in the US, EU, Japan, and I guess elsewhere, of the Pfizer
> and Moderna formulae, I am not yet seeing any reports of G-B upticks that
> seem to correlate with them.  And it is the same data sets that would be a
> source for all these.  So I am eager to see if there is a real difference,
> and whether we can find out where it comes from.  It could well come back
> to the way our familiarity with viruses, possibly in combination with
> adjuvants, tunes immune responses.
>
> Anyway,
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Jul 20, 2021, at 5:59 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
>
> I intended to ignore this. A right-wing publication <
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2frationalwiki.org%2fwiki%2fQuillette=E,1,5xAe5gKvP5GEkMF5Jy760f7p5E-YIiCXn6VPUFS5KkVueVNYI5hOVJ04h4Dd3OVYcWquJ-Q5n9rmDLBp0VwlwR1anEaB7VBThufosT3Tl492brNFPDtD0I2ww5yF=1>
> criticizing an alt-right troll <
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fbookshop.org%2fbooks%2fagainst-the-web-a-cosmopolitan-answer-to-the-new-right%2f9781789042306=E,1,RIDuZAwRSSrQWqY0iDNF0muhPD2iPPIm9ULWPwv7JPRoy9mgEPISBUwSpd8JMhvGo15cpJpWV3Hj2JmHPP8J2LGKdb8UCsWPunIsHX1uZKAV67MYSQ,,=1>?!
> Good, I'm glad your community of sociopaths is fractured. Maybe you'll all
> eat each other and let the world heal.
>
> But because I'm a rubber-necker who loves zombie and slasher movie gore, I
> finally looked into the "Ground Truth Challenge" and it seems to present an
> opportunity to explore the composition/division fallacy:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition
>
> which should concern anyone interested in obscure gen-phen mapping. Let's
> just assume the referees involved will find against all the unrejected
> objections to isolated claims made by BW. Does that, then, imply that BW 

Re: [FRIAM] Freedom Phone

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

Well, I'll waste the e-ink to plug the Teracube 2e again: 
https://myteracube.com/pages/teracube-2e

I've had mine for quite awhile, now. It works very well. It's not a high end 
phone. But I can pop in a sd card for data transfer, it's got 2 sim slots, 
replaceable battery, etc. No physical keyboard, though. I like that, too, but 
gave up on it awhile back.

On 7/19/21 3:56 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> Personally I want a phone with  archaic things like: a physical keyboard. and 
> battery slot to put a separate one . And gasp wireless charging baked in. I 
> love the phoneS I have. But think things like battery, keyboard and wireless 
> charging are more important than having an american flag and expensive person 
> to plug the phone.

-- 
☤>$ uǝlƃ

-  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Freedom Phone

[Gillian Densmore]

Eh well it frees money from your wallet.

Personally I want a phone with  archaic things like: a physical keyboard.
and battery slot to put a separate one . And gasp wireless charging baked
in. I love the phoneS I have. But think things like battery, keyboard and
wireless charging are more important than having an american flag and
expensive person to plug the phone.



On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 3:33 PM uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:

> We have our own local source in Jon. See his post from december of last
> year:
>
> On 12/29/20 10:24 AM, jon zingale wrote:
> > Falun Gong is an interesting case. Across from the University of Texas at
> > Austin was one of my all-time favorite vegetarian restaurants, Veggie
> > Heaven. The owners of VH were Falun Dafa practitioners from China. Images
> > about the restaurant portrayed meditators floating above lotuses with
> auras
> > of light. The last page of the menu included a heartfelt letter speaking
> > about the plight of practitioners in China, complete with images of
> beaten,
> > imprisoned and tortured practitioners. The prices at the restaurant were
> > very inexpensive (one could get a veggie bowl for $5) and yet they would
> > participate in a daily humanitarian effort. Homebums and traveler kids
> would
> > find their way to the door of VH, hold up a finger or two, and shortly a
> man
> > would step out of the door and bring them food. This would happen dozens
> of
> > times a day. One day, even I tried it and low-and-behold, hot food was
> given
> > to me.
> >
> > Shortly after this introduction, I started looking into the qigong
> practices
> > and history of Falun Dafa. No doubt it appeared to be a questionably
> > bureaucratic organization, not unlike the Christian churches here in the
> > west. That said, the qigong practices seemed to do something for my base
> > stress level.
> >
> > Through my continued interest, and access to the wonderfully extensive UT
> > library stacks, I came across the book "Breathing Spaces: qigong,
> > psychiatry, and healing in China" (a book which I believe I have
> mentioned
> > on Friam before). To my surprise, the book does not so much cover the
> health
> > benefits of qigong but rather chronicles mental health issues involving
> > qigong practices, persecution of qigong practitioners in Chinese
> psychiatric
> > hospitals, and the rise of belief in "superhuman abilities" via qigong in
> > China shortly after the Tiananmen Square incident.
> >
> > The big take-home for me, and a possible connection to organizations like
> > qAnon, is that in times of hardship it is well documented that
> communities
> > have been observed incorporating "supernatural belief and abilities"
> into a
> > kind of warrior's narrative. For instance, historians like John Hope
> > Franklin [1] and anthropologist Wade Davis [2] have noted this tendency
> in
> > the transformation of Yoruba into Voudun by Africans brought as slaves to
> > the new world.
> >
> > Once while playing go with my buddy Joe at St. Johns, I asked him about
> the
> > perception of Falun Gong in China (he is from Hefei). Joe's take was
> that it
> > was a largely fraudulent and criminal organization and that the Chinese
> > government was very much right to go after it. I didn't press him very
> hard,
> > in part so as to not strain our relationship (a potential weakness on my
> > part). Still, when I search the web even now, I am surprised by the
> amount
> > of literature that exists pointing to the potential mental health risks
> of
> > such a meditative practice. In the conclusion of Qigong-induced mental
> > disorders: a review[3], the authors state:
> >
> > "Despite the widespread use of Qigong, there is a conspicuous lack of
> > controlled data regarding its effects on mental health. Qigong, when
> > practiced inappropriately, may induce abnormal psychosomatic responses
> and
> > even mental disorders."
> >
> > Which, when I read it I cannot help but feel that this "peer-reviewed
> paper"
> > is somehow propaganda.
> >
> > I am not always so sure what it could mean to "trust" nations or
> peer-review
> > in this post-enlightenment period. Yesterday, the United States
> > president-elect gave an address where he reports that "Many of the
> agencies
> > that are critical to our security have incurred enormous damage. Many of
> > them have been hollowed out"[4]. If he is speaking truthfully, then I am
> > unsure what a network of trust can be. If he is not, then the same. My
> > takeaway here is that it is more than reasonable to have a lack of faith
> in
> > one another and in our institutions. I speculate, that without good
> cause to
> > restore trust, we ought to expect organizations like qAnon to become more
> > mainstream.
> >
> > Meanwhile in the US: 300k dead from Covid, rampant unemployment, a
> K-shaped
> > economy, closings of small businesses, and a stock market decoupled from
> the
> > economy. Bipartisan politics has: given rise to climate change as a
> > political 

Re: [FRIAM] Freedom Phone

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

We have our own local source in Jon. See his post from december of last year:

On 12/29/20 10:24 AM, jon zingale wrote:
> Falun Gong is an interesting case. Across from the University of Texas at
> Austin was one of my all-time favorite vegetarian restaurants, Veggie
> Heaven. The owners of VH were Falun Dafa practitioners from China. Images
> about the restaurant portrayed meditators floating above lotuses with auras
> of light. The last page of the menu included a heartfelt letter speaking
> about the plight of practitioners in China, complete with images of beaten,
> imprisoned and tortured practitioners. The prices at the restaurant were
> very inexpensive (one could get a veggie bowl for $5) and yet they would
> participate in a daily humanitarian effort. Homebums and traveler kids would
> find their way to the door of VH, hold up a finger or two, and shortly a man
> would step out of the door and bring them food. This would happen dozens of
> times a day. One day, even I tried it and low-and-behold, hot food was given
> to me.
> 
> Shortly after this introduction, I started looking into the qigong practices
> and history of Falun Dafa. No doubt it appeared to be a questionably
> bureaucratic organization, not unlike the Christian churches here in the
> west. That said, the qigong practices seemed to do something for my base
> stress level.
> 
> Through my continued interest, and access to the wonderfully extensive UT
> library stacks, I came across the book "Breathing Spaces: qigong,
> psychiatry, and healing in China" (a book which I believe I have mentioned
> on Friam before). To my surprise, the book does not so much cover the health
> benefits of qigong but rather chronicles mental health issues involving
> qigong practices, persecution of qigong practitioners in Chinese psychiatric
> hospitals, and the rise of belief in "superhuman abilities" via qigong in
> China shortly after the Tiananmen Square incident.
> 
> The big take-home for me, and a possible connection to organizations like
> qAnon, is that in times of hardship it is well documented that communities
> have been observed incorporating "supernatural belief and abilities" into a
> kind of warrior's narrative. For instance, historians like John Hope
> Franklin [1] and anthropologist Wade Davis [2] have noted this tendency in
> the transformation of Yoruba into Voudun by Africans brought as slaves to
> the new world.
> 
> Once while playing go with my buddy Joe at St. Johns, I asked him about the
> perception of Falun Gong in China (he is from Hefei). Joe's take was that it
> was a largely fraudulent and criminal organization and that the Chinese
> government was very much right to go after it. I didn't press him very hard,
> in part so as to not strain our relationship (a potential weakness on my
> part). Still, when I search the web even now, I am surprised by the amount
> of literature that exists pointing to the potential mental health risks of
> such a meditative practice. In the conclusion of Qigong-induced mental
> disorders: a review[3], the authors state:
> 
> "Despite the widespread use of Qigong, there is a conspicuous lack of
> controlled data regarding its effects on mental health. Qigong, when
> practiced inappropriately, may induce abnormal psychosomatic responses and
> even mental disorders."
> 
> Which, when I read it I cannot help but feel that this "peer-reviewed paper"
> is somehow propaganda.
> 
> I am not always so sure what it could mean to "trust" nations or peer-review
> in this post-enlightenment period. Yesterday, the United States
> president-elect gave an address where he reports that "Many of the agencies
> that are critical to our security have incurred enormous damage. Many of
> them have been hollowed out"[4]. If he is speaking truthfully, then I am
> unsure what a network of trust can be. If he is not, then the same. My
> takeaway here is that it is more than reasonable to have a lack of faith in
> one another and in our institutions. I speculate, that without good cause to
> restore trust, we ought to expect organizations like qAnon to become more
> mainstream.
> 
> Meanwhile in the US: 300k dead from Covid, rampant unemployment, a K-shaped
> economy, closings of small businesses, and a stock market decoupled from the
> economy. Bipartisan politics has: given rise to climate change as a
> political button, prevented many in need from receiving assistance, and a
> political system decoupled from reasoning about issues. Those of us in the
> upper part of the K-shape hold onto our stocks and jobs and hope that it
> gets better. Those of us in the lower part prepare for what?
> 
> [1] From Slavery to Freedom: A History of African Americans (at least I
> think it was here?)
> [2] The Serpent and the Rainbow: A Harvard Scientist's Astonishing Journey
> into the Secret Societies of Haitian Voodoo, Zombies, and Magic
> [3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10336217/
> [4] 

Re: [FRIAM] Collective sensemaking

[uǝlƃ ☤ $]

I intended to ignore this. A right-wing publication 
 criticizing an alt-right troll 
?!
 Good, I'm glad your community of sociopaths is fractured. Maybe you'll all eat 
each other and let the world heal.

But because I'm a rubber-necker who loves zombie and slasher movie gore, I 
finally looked into the "Ground Truth Challenge" and it seems to present an 
opportunity to explore the composition/division fallacy: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition

which should concern anyone interested in obscure gen-phen mapping. Let's just 
assume the referees involved will find against all the unrejected objections to 
isolated claims made by BW. Does that, then, imply that BW is not "promoting 
quackery"?

As a fan of conspiracy theories like Jack Parsons being an occult practitioner, 
the Deep Hot Biosphere, Evolution Without Selection, etc., it's difficult NOT 
to notice how conspiracy peddlers like BW effectively use factoids and then 
rely on their audience to "fill in the gaps". This is the essence of Lakoff's 
diagnosis of Trump's ... uh ... performance art rallies. It's the essence of 
how leaders like Charles Manson persuade their followers to, say, murder 
people, without ever explicitly ordering them to do so.

As I've alluded before, the fallacy of composition is particularly lethal to 
narrativity ... just because the factoids are, in isolation, "true", doesn't 
mean the narrative they serve is "true". What we desperately need is a calculus 
by which to demonstrate how/when/why systemic properties reduce and when they 
don't. And we don't even need culture war fetishes like ivermectin or critical 
race theory to discuss it. We can retreat to safe territory like physics and 
math. >8^D


On 7/17/21 10:16 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> I'm a big fan of but some members of this group have been highly critical of 
> Bret Weinstein in previous emails. I'll be monitoring the exercise described 
> below where the integrity of Bret Weinstein will be scrutinized.
> 
> Background
> The online magazine Quilette published an article 
> https://quillette.com/2021/07/06/looking-for-covid-19-miracle-drugs-we-already-have-them-theyre-called-vaccines/
>  
> 
>  highly critical of Bret Weinstein and his guests.
> 
> Now, supporters of Bret decided to challenge the article and are launching a 
> $10k "Ground truth challenge". 
> https://www.betterskeptics.com/launching-the-10k-ground-truth-challenge/ 
> 
> 


-- 
☤>$ uǝlƃ

-  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Freedom Phone

[cody dooderson]

I recently visited a tiny town in the western slope of Colorado. The small
town does not have it's own newspaper, so from what I could tell the people
read something called the Epoch Times. It appears to me to be blatant right
wing propaganda.
It turns out that the Epoch times is at least partially funded by the
persecuted Chinese religious movement called the Falun Gong. I don't know
much about them other than that they appear to have a serious and
justified problem with China. It suddenly makes more sense why the
republicans in my circle are now so anti China. How did this chinese
religious movement end up allying with the far right media machine?


Cody Smith


On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 12:09 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> On 7/16/21 9:34 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
>
> The "Freedom Phone" which is supposed to protect your fragile conservative
> egos from the ravages of big tech, turns out to be a $179 retail Shenzhen
> manufactured phone being sold for $499 retail with a generous affiliate cut
> to the right wing mouthpieces willing to promote it.  And it's app store is
> a skin over the google play store.
> https://www.xda-developers.com/freedom-phone-overpriced-smartphone/
>
> I wonder if there's a Guinness world record for number of people in an
> abusive codependency?
>
> I dunno, it seems like by rough measure the entire third world (under
> colonization at some level) and the entire first world
> exploiting/extracting from them would seem to suggest order 8bn ?
>
> I take your point re:  Right Wingnut abusive co-dependency.   Where lies
> the distinction between codependency and co-evolution?  We have spoken here
> before about parasitic symbiotes.  Have our polarized right/left not
> somewhat co-evolved together and are also in-fact codependent to some
> extent?   The  Right *needs* the left to be someone they can "own" in the
> same many men use their wives/children/subordinates/dogs as a place to
> shore up a thinning ego?
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe  
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
-  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/