[FRIAM] An Open Letter to Joe Biden

[thompnickson2]

My Phellow Phriammers,

I am frantic about the last week's events.  In a fit of absurd geriatric
arrogance, I have concluded that the attached document contains a good idea
that nobody else has thought of.  Beset by this illusion, I asking you-all
to forward this letter to anybody for whom it might make a difference.
Attachment and/ or in line text below. Suggestions, calming comments, etc.,
welcome. 

Nick 

++

Dear Joe Biden,

I write to offer some thoughts concerning your decision to continue your run
for a second term.  These thoughts come in two forms: (1), A description of
what it is like to live from 81 to 86, something that I have done, and you
have not.  And (2), a way to leverage your power as presumptive nominee to
guarantee the best possible solution for all of us.   

1.  A Guide The Early Eighties

I was born in '38, you, in '43, back in the good old days when two numbers
and an apostrophe were sufficient to identify a year.  We both were raised
during World War II.   We have other things in common, a life-long
disability, yours a stammer, mine a devastating hip infection as an infant.
We both had heart attacks, yours at an early age, mine much later.   I say
all this to claim some standing with you as a spokesman for the early
eighties.   I certainly have not suffered the awful human losses that you
have endured in your long life. 

The problem of the early eighties is not what a younger person thinks it is
going to be.  When I was younger, I worried about the dramatic event that
killed me or left me totally incapacitated, the stroke or the heart attack.
Mind you, these sorts of endings are possible, and the more stress a body is
under, the more likely they are to happen.   And mind you, also, such sudden
deaths are devastating to the people you love.  

 But rational fear of these outcomes is not the hardest part of living
through the early eighties.   The most terrifying feature is the vice-like
squeeze between the time available to do ordinary things and the time it
takes to do them.  Please consider a simple example.   Once upon a time, I
could spring from behind a desk like a scalded cat, stride quickly across a
room, and plop myself down in a couch, while not losing a beat in the
conversation.  Now, such a move requires preparation.  Arthritis in my hips,
knees and back makes me stiff after a prolonged period of sitting.   Am I
going to lift with my legs, or with my hands on the surface of the desk.
Once up, before I take my first step, I must be sure of my balance and
footing.  Is that a fold in rug between me and my destination?  My path must
be adjusted to take account of it. When I get to the couch, I must plan my
sitting.  I need to sit at the end, so to have the arm of the couch to let
myself down gently lest I collapse on to the cushions like a pile of old
bones.  And if I was talking when I decided to make this voyage, I must
pause.  Those to whom I am talking feel obligated to stay silent till I am
reseated, lest they endanger my progress. All of this is disconcerting
enough.   I can only imagine the discomfort I might feel if my spectators
were generals, congresspersons, senators, or cabinet members.  

The expansion of the time it takes to do such small acts is multiplied a
hundred times a day.   Since fatigue sets in a few seconds earlier every
afternoon, this time is deleted from a day that is itself shrinking
inexorably.  Sure, adjustments can be made, sure there can be naps, sure,
staff can step up, others can fill in, but each of these people is also on
their own vice-like time schedule.  As this vise tightens, there is bound to
be a moment when someone's life shatters between its jaws.   And with all
the devoted people working around you, you can never be sure that the life
that shatters is your own.  

2.  Make them put up or shut up.

Despite these dark realities, I grant that you have many good and generous
reasons to challenge the odds and hang onto the nomination you have amply
earned and won.   Ezra Klein's dream of a orgy of democracy at the
convention is bonkers.  Unleashing the competitive instincts of a bunch of
career politicians (and their organizations) at this time would almost
certainly lead to Trump's second term.  

But there is a way out of this dilemma.  I suggest that you go before the
nation with the following proposal.  

My fellow Americans, 

It has come to my attention that many of you are concerned about a
President's ability to carry on with the job into his eighties.   You should
know that most of the work of being president is in hiring the people who
make up the administration.   That work is done.  The people around me are
extraordinarily skilled and well-informed, and once such a team is
assembled, the role of the president is to keep them moving forward steadily
in a coordinated direction.   One does not have to be able to dance a jig to
get that job done.  One can do it from a chair.  

[FRIAM] "SSRN-id3978095.pdf" was shared with you

[thompnickson2]

Hi, Everybody,

I have been curious about how (on earth!) the president could not be
considered to be an Officer of the United States.  After all, the
Constitution, Article II, tells us that "The President ...shall hold
office..."etc. This law review article  seems to be the source  I thought I
would post in in case anyone wants to read it. I won't get to it until later
today.
Nick 
  


Nicholas Thompson shared "SSRN-id3978095.pdf" with you. Add your comments
and collaborate with others in real time. 
https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:US:78c146d5-db5e-40c6-9c28-54b43960
bd4c



Sent with Adobe cloud storage. You don't need to download Acrobat or sign up
to access the file.


-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Mirror Neurons & Intersubjective Reality

[thompnickson2]

All,

Eric’s story confirms what I am beginning  to think of as the second pragmatist 
maxim:  

All perception concerns the future.  

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2023 7:20 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Mirror Neurons & Intersubjective Reality

 

A 60 second search found this behind a paywall:

  William G Chase and Herbert A Simon. 1973. Perception in chess. Cognitive 
psychology 4(1):55–81.

The abstract sounds right, but there were only three subjects in the study.

 

-- rec --

 

On Thu, Nov 16, 2023 at 6:21 AM David Eric Smith mailto:desm...@santafe.edu> > wrote:

Just getting to this one, days late….





On Nov 15, 2023, at 8:58 AM, Steve Smith mailto:sasm...@swcp.com> > wrote:

 

I have not (yet) read this critically, the introduction just tweaked my 
(confirmation biased) interests:

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-11-brain.html 

 

Here is one of several research stories that Elwyn Berlekamp told to me during 
a visit to SFI many years ago in which I was his host (the closest I will ever 
come to the experience of those who hosted Erdos).  

 

Elwyn was one of the principles of the MSRI research into mathematical analysis 
of combinatorial games.  

 

Here was one project:

 

Subjects are shown a chessboard with pieces on it, for a short time, after 
which the board is cleared (remember Searching for Bobby Fisher: “Here; I’ll 
help you”), and the subject is asked to reconstruct the piece locations.

 

The subjects were in two categories: high-level chess players, and ordinary 
people who don’t really play seriously, though perhaps they understand the 
rules of the game.

 

I will recount to you the outcomes as they were told to me.  I have not gone 
back to original sources so I don’t know if some stylization was added to 
“sharpen the edges” of the picture.

 

1.  For pieces placed on a board by computer-random number generators, the 
experts and the novices were not much different in speed or reliability of 
replacing pieces.

 

2. When the arrangements were not randomly generated, but rather taken from 
various stages in the play of games by high-level players, suddenly a big gap 
opened up.  The novices did about the same as they had done for randomly placed 
pieces at similar sparseness etc.  The experts got much faster and more 
reliable.

 

The experimenters, of course, wanted to say something mechanistic about why.  
To do this they put eye-trackers on the subjects, to find out what they were 
looking at when presented with the blankened board and asked to rebuild.  So: 
what did the experts look at first?  This is where the tension of the joke is 
set up, to prepare for the punchline.

 

3. The place the experts looked first was at the “next good move” from what had 
been the position, and they then backfilled the pieces in the positions that 
had made it the next good move.

 

 

I find this story delightful.  If I were less lazy and really needed it for 
anything, maybe I would do the work to find out how reliable it is.

 

Eric

 

 

 

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Thursday

[thompnickson2]

Hi, Steve, 

 

I didn’t get this memo in time.  At minimum, let’s you and I get together at 
1.45 to review our conversation from last week and keep me from backsliding.  

 

For instance, to abuse the life-guard swimmer metaphor a bit, let’s imagine a 
situation in which the swimmer is unconscious and floating.  The swimmer is not 
an agent.  Now, does this make a difference?  In one case there is a 
“negotiation” between the lifeguard and the swimmer, and in the other, not.  

 

So, there is a sense in which lightening is made possible by a negotiation 
between the charged cloud and the oppositely charged ground.  

 

In the convection situation, would it not be fair to say that there is a 
negotiation between the cooler dryer denser air above and the warmer, moister, 
less-dense airbelow to find non-conflicting pathways, i.e., columns of rising 
and falling air?  In each case, “feelers” are put out and accepted or. 

 

Am I backsliding already?  

Nick  

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:32 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Thursday

 

I've started up https://bit.ly/virtualfriam and can hand off host when someone 
arrives. I'll have to leave for a 10a meeting and back at 1145a to check in.

 

 

 

On Tue, Jul 18, 2023, 7:08 PM Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote:

We're taking grandson Matthew to Colorado Springs to see the WW2 Aircraft 
Museum.  We leave tomorrow and return Friday.  That means I won't be in Santa 
Fe Thursday morning.  John Dobson, a regular attendee of vFriam, will be in 
Santa Fe that day.  We can either skip vFriam this week or Stephen can start it 
up and assign a host.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] Thuam

[thompnickson2]

Knock, knock, knockin' on Thuam's Door. 

 

n

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Trees as wind farms.

[thompnickson2]

Thanks Glen,  
I have no problem with agency in plants if you have no problem with agency in 
humans.  Plants even have intentionality, meaning that a world can be described 
relevant to a plant's needs, an umwelt, if you will.  I like Barry's idea that 
trees are bad collectors energy, but why? Poplar leaves twirl in the wind; at 
the nano-scopic level, there are all sorts of rotors and turbines.  The poplar 
doesn't have to collect energy if it can focus it locally, say on bud growth at 
the bud next to the leave stem.  

N

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2023 1:29 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trees as wind farms.

"make use of" imputes agency on the trees. A better way to phrase it would be 
how/whether trees benefit from wind. But, if I'm a little more generous, maybe 
you're asking if there are any transduction or energy storage mechanisms 
triggered by the wind.

https://bsapubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.3732/ajb.93.10.1466
"Touch, wind, and wounding all induced increased lipoxygenase (LOX) mRNA 
transcription in wheat (Triticum aestivum L.) seedlings (Mauch et al., 1997). 
The mechanical stress induced response occurred within 1 h after treatment, and 
the amount of transcript was reported to be strongly dose-dependent. LOXs are 
involved or implicated in a number of metabolic pathways associated with plant 
growth and development, ABA biosynthesis, senescence, mobilization of lipid 
reserves, wound responses, resistance to pathogens, formation of fatty acid 
hydroperoxides, and synthesis of jasmonic acid and traumatic acid (for review, 
see Mauch et al., 1997)."

Maybe?

On 6/27/23 09:19, Barry MacKichan wrote:
> I would think the energy is too dispersed to be collectable. At risk of 
> bending this infant thread … you reminded me of John Muir:
> 
> It has been said that trees are imperfect men, and seem to bemoan their 
> imprisonment rooted in the ground. But they never seem so to me. I never saw 
> a discontented tree. They grip the ground as though they liked it, and though 
> fast rooted they travel about as far as we do. They go wandering forth in all 
> directions with every wind, going and coming like ourselves, traveling with 
> us around the sun two million miles a day, and through space heaven knows how 
> fast and far!
> 
> —Barry
> 
> On 27 Jun 2023, at 11:38, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> 
> Sitting here at the farm, watching the Normandy poplars bend in the 
> Southeast wind, I am led to wonder why trees don’t make use of wind energy. 
> There must be a tangible amount of heat generated by the bending of branches. 
> Is there no way to use that heat for, for instance, convection of fluids 
> within the tree?
> 
> Or do they? And I am just too ill educated to know it.
> Nick


-- 
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] [EXT] New Mexico SNOTEL Santa Fe (922) (05P09S ) (PST) Daily series for wateryear=2023

[thompnickson2]

John,

 

Well, in MA, we are living under the third day of unpredicted rain.  But
it's not a monsoon.  What defines a monsoon is a weakness in the subtropical
high pressure regime that allows moisture to flood northward over a heated
continent.   The new Mexico "monsoon"  is supposed tostart in May and June
in Mexico and move northward, arriving in August   June is supposed to be
hot and dry.  

 

I suspect that some  mechanism other than the classic "monsoon"is operating
now. The weather people like to call any sustained period of rainy weather
in NM a monsoon, which I think is crap.  Hence the "Joon Nonsoon."

 

nick

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of John Kennison
Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2023 3:50 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXT] New Mexico SNOTEL Santa Fe (922) (05P09S ) (PST)
Daily series for wateryear=2023

 

Is that the Santa Fe Nonsoon or the Massachusetts Nonsoon

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
on behalf of Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 8:56 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: [EXT] [FRIAM] New Mexico SNOTEL Santa Fe (922) (05P09S ) (PST)
Daily series for wateryear=2023 

 

https://wcc.sc.egov.usda.gov/nwcc/view?intervalType=+View+Current+

&report=WYGRAPH×eries=Daily&format=plot&sitenum=922&interval=WATERYEAR

Sent from Mail   for Windows

 

The Joon Nonsoon continues. 

 

N

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] ChatGPT knows FRIAM

[thompnickson2]

Stunning!  How do you know if ChatCBT is lying; it’s steely lips are moving.  

Nick 

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2023 1:23 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] ChatGPT knows FRIAM

 

Me: Do you know the FRIAM group in Santa Fe?





ChatGPT: Yes, I'm aware of the FRIAM group in Santa Fe. FRIAM (Focusing 
Research on Infinite Automated Models) is a research group located at the Santa 
Fe Institute, a renowned research center dedicated to the study of complex 
systems. FRIAM is a group of interdisciplinary researchers who explore the use 
of mathematical models and computational methods to understand complex systems 
and phenomena, with a focus on infinite-dimensional systems. The group's 
research interests include dynamical systems, machine learning, optimization, 
and more. FRIAM's work has contributed to a deeper understanding of various 
systems, such as financial markets, climate models, and biological systems, 
among others.

 

Me: No, I mean the Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group. It is 
organization of complexity researchers and software developers in Santa Fe, New 
Mexico, interested in applied complexity

 

ChatGPT: I apologize for the confusion. Yes, I'm also aware of the Friday 
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group in Santa Fe. It is a group of 
complexity researchers and software developers who meet on Friday mornings to 
discuss and explore topics related to applied complexity. The group is open to 
anyone who is interested in the subject and is often attended by researchers, 
academics, entrepreneurs, and professionals from a variety of fields. The 
discussions at the group cover a wide range of topics, including complex 
systems, data science, artificial intelligence, and more. The group provides a 
forum for members to share their ideas and learn from each other in an informal 
setting over a cup of coffee. The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee 
Group is one of many examples of the vibrant intellectual community in Santa Fe 
dedicated to the study of complex systems.

 

Me: Can you name some active members? 

 

ChatGPT: I'm sorry, but as an artificial intelligence language model, I don't 
have access to real-time information on the current membership of the Friday 
Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group. The group is a community of complexity 
researchers and software developers in Santa Fe who meet on a regular basis to 
discuss and explore topics related to applied complexity. The membership of the 
group is fluid, with new members joining and others moving on as their 
interests and circumstances change. If you are interested in learning more 
about the group, you might be able to find more information on their website or 
through social media channels. Alternatively, you could try reaching out to the 
Santa Fe Institute, which has connections with many researchers and 
organizations in the Santa Fe area.

 

Me: Nicholas Thompson, Eric Charles, Glen Ropella and Frank Wimberly are part 
of this group. What do you know about them?

 

ChatGPT: Nicholas Thompson is the Editor-in-Chief of Wired Magazine, which 
covers a wide range of topics related to technology, science, and culture. 
Prior to his current position at Wired, he was a senior editor at the magazine 
and worked as a reporter for The New Yorker and Legal Times. Thompson is also 
the author of "The Hawk and the Dove: Paul Nitze, George Kennan, and the 
History of the Cold War," a book that explores the history of the Cold War 
through the lives of two of its most prominent strategists.

 

Eric Charles is the Vice President of Engineering at Descartes Labs, a 
geospatial data analytics company that leverages machine learning and 
artificial intelligence to analyze satellite imagery and other types of data. 
Charles has a background in computer science and has worked in various 
engineering and leadership roles at several technology companies, including 
Intel, Sun Microsystems, and Google.

 

Glen Ropella is a computer scientist and engineer who has worked on a variety 
of projects related to computational modeling, artificial intelligence, and 
machine learning. He is currently a Senior Scientist at Los Alamos National 
Laboratory, where he is involved in research on complex systems and their 
applications to national security and other areas.

 

Frank Wimberly is a software engineer and entrepreneur who has worked in 
various roles in the technology industry, including as a software engineer at 
Yahoo and as the founder of a startup focused on data analytics. He is 
currently the CTO of Descartes Labs, where he leads the company's efforts to 
develop and apply advanced machine learning and artificial intelligence 
techniques to geospatial data.

 

It's worth noting that while these individuals have been associated with the 
Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group at some point, their involvement 
with the gr

Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Categories

[thompnickson2]

Glen, 

Thank you for writing.  I would take the minimum conditions of pan psychism to 
be that every object (i.e., every thing to which a noun may be applied) has 
interests and acts in accordance with those interests.  >From the point of view 
of the "experience monist" (wtf) , panpsychism is an empirical assertion that 
needs to be explored in the usual way: by diligent observation and careful 
delineation of terms.  

 

"Experience Monism" is itself a much more primitive position, so primitive that 
my former student, now mentor, Eric Charles doubts that it is worth asserting.  
It asserts only that experience is all we have and that, to the extent that we 
talk of events beyond experience, we are, in fact, talking about structures in 
experience.  Thus, when we assert that something is real or true, we are 
obligated to describe the properties of that experience, the experience of 
realness or truthity.  

 

Is it true that dirt has interests and acts in accordance with them?  Maybe.  
We'ld have to see. If not, though, there are many quasi telic process in nature 
that raise that sort of question.  My favorite is the manner in which an icy 
puddle defends 32 degrees as its temperature.  Does a n icy puddle have an 
interest in remaining close to 32 degrees?

 

It would be great if you could "stop by" some Thursday morning   I miss your 
regular input. Much tho it drives me nuts.  

 

By the way, there was a podcast called Hard Fork, I believe, in which a techy 
type interacts with the new chatbot thingy, and ends up being stalked by it, 
the bot declaring and persuing his enternal love.  Now, a lot of audiobits are 
spilled on explaining how the bot could have managed such a conversation 
without any body considering the possibility that the techy's probing triggered 
the intervention of some human, and that that human was teasing the living shit 
out of the techy.  A reverse Turing Test? 

Nick
   

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2023 8:46 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Categories

 

Despite the ambiguity both Nick and DaveW rely on when they use the word 
"dualism", the "psyche" in panpsychism need not be dualist. Experience monism 
is a kind of panpsychism. When I asserted that there is something that it is 
like to be dirt, I'm not implying there is a difference between "psyche" and 
... matter or whatever else there may be. I'm asserting that whatever it is to 
be dirt is the *same* as whatever it is to be human.

 

By even using the phrases "mental stuff" or "mental life", *you* are implicitly 
asserting there are 2 things: mental and non-mental. There is no such 
difference, in my opinion. Now, while I am often a moron, I don't deny that 
people *think* there's a difference. E.g. when you finally get that snap of 
understanding while running, or taking a shower or whatever, about some concept 
you've been working on, it *feels* like pure mentation. The shift just feels 
cognitive, not bodily. But I would maintain my stance that this is an 
abstraction, a sloughing off of the bodily details. (The illusion is a 
byproduct of focus and attention, which are mechanical implementations of 
abstraction.) My stance is that, however cognitive such things feel, they 
aren't. You wouldn't, *could not*, have arrived at that state without your 
body, or if you had a different body.

 

Yes, as long as your body is *similar* to others' bodies, you could arrive at a 
*similar* understanding, but not the same.

 

On 2/18/23 05:29, Eric Charles wrote:

> On 2/16/23 23:35, ⛧ glen wrote:

>> I don't know what you mean by "mental stuff", of course.

> 

> Well... In this context, I mean whatever the "psyche" part of panpsychism 
> entails.

> 

> Given that I don't believe in disembodied minds, I'm with you 100% on 
> everything you do being "body stuff". Which, presumably, leads to the 
> empirical question of what types of bodies do "psyche", and where those types 
> of bodies can be found.

> 

> You say further that: 'No. Neither the dirt nor I do "mental stuff"'.

> 

> Well, now we have something to actually talk about then! Dave West, 
> unsurprisingly, stepped in strongly on the side of dirt having psyche in at 
> least a rudimentary form, I presume he would assert that you (Glen) do mental 
> stuff too. Dave also asserts that his belief in panpsychism /does/ affect how 
> he lives in the world. Exactly to the extent that his way of living in the 
> world is made different by the belief, panpsychism /_is_/ more than just 
> something he says.

> 

> Steve's discussion about what it would feel like to be the bit of dirt 
> trampled beneath a particular foot is a bit of a tangent - potentially 
> interesting in its own right. His discussion of when he, personally, starts 
> to attribute identity - and potent

Re: [FRIAM] Thuram still happening?

[thompnickson2]

FWiW, I willmake every effort to arrive fed to Thuam by 10.30 Mountain.  I want 
to hear the experts among you hold forth on WTF a cateogory actually IS.  I am 
thinking (duh) that a category is a more or less diffuse node in a network of 
associations (signs, if you must).  Hence they constitute a vast table of what 
goes with what, what is predictable from what, etc.  This accommodates “family 
resemblance”  quite nicely.  Do I think animals have categories, in this sense, 
ABSOLUTELY EFFING YES. Does this make me a (shudder) nominalist?  I hope not.  

Words…nouns in particular… confuse this category business.  Words place 
constraints on how vague these nodes can be.   They impose on the network 
constraints to which it is ill suited.  True, the more my associations with 
“horse” line up with your associations with “horse”, the more true the horse 
seems.  Following Peirce, I would say that where our nodes increasingly 
correspond with increasing shared experience, we have evidence ot the 
(ultimate) truth of the nodes, their “reality” in Peirce’s terms.  Here is 
where I am striving to hang on to Peirce’s realism.  

The reason I want the geeks to participate tomorrow is that I keep thinking of 
a semantic webby thing that Steve devised for the Institute about a decade ago. 
  Now a semantic web would be a kind of metaphor for an associative web; don’t 
associate with other words in exactly the same manner in which experiences 
associate with other experiences.  Still, I think the metaphor is interesting.  
Also, I am kind of re-interested in my “authorial voice”, how much it operates 
like cbt. 

 

Rushing, 

 

Nick 

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2023 10:29 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Thuram still happening?

 

Well shoot. that would do it Thank you! 




 

 

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023 at 12:28 PM Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Today is Wednesday, isn't it?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Wed, Feb 15, 2023, 10:19 AM Eric Charles mailto:eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Are the Thursday online meetings still happening? I missed a few weeks due to 
work piling up meetings on, but I'm trying to log in now, and it looks like the 
meeting hasn't started. 

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Mike Daly

[thompnickson2]

Ugh!   This news makes me regret every FRIAM in-person meeting I did not
attend this fall.  

N

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Angel Edward
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2022 7:33 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] Mike Daly

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries/name/david-michael-daly-obituary?id=382
53339
__

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS
Lab) Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) edward.an...@gmail.com
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel


-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present
https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] SPC Hourly Mesoscale Analysis

[thompnickson2]

https://www.spc.noaa.gov/exper/mesoanalysis/new/viewsector.php?sector=19
 &parm=300mb 

The fastest route to Boston from ABQ today is via Ontario.   You could shave
an hour off the flight.  Snow on the ground here in Santa Fe.  Indian summer
in MA.  The whole system is propagating eastward so if you are east of NM,
keep an eye on your forecasts.  

N

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] SPC Hourly Mesoscale Analysis

[thompnickson2]

https://www.spc.noaa.gov/exper/mesoanalysis/new/viewsector.php?sector=19
 &parm=300mb 

Fastest route from NM to Boston today is via Ontario.  

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Clouds as objects and duals

[thompnickson2]

Gang,

 

Ok, so I had a few moments to look into it and discovered that I am precisely 
and absolutely wrong.  Egregiously so.  This is exactly, classically,  a roll 
cloud … “arcus”.  

 

They are different from “shelf” and “wall” clouds in that they are not 
necessarily near thunderstorms.  Shelf clouds are quite common and form at the 
downdraft front of a thunderstorm where it passes by  the updraft.  In MA, 
almost every summer thunderstorm has one.  They seem to have a structure very 
similar to this roll cloud (hence my confusion).   What is striking about roll 
clouds is that they seem to progress through an otherwise stable atmosphere.  

 

I am not in NM in the summer, so I don’t know how common roll clouds are here, 
but because of the very low humidity, on NM radar in the summer you can often 
see downdraft gust fronts propagating outward  from thunderstorms for miles as 
faint lines encircling the former location of a long-dead parent storm.   A bit 
like “fairy rings”   of mushrooms.   
Where a gust front encounters potentially UN-stable air, it often initiates 
another thunderstorm.  

 

The other similar phenomenon is a derecho 
 .   I have no idea how 
these work, but they are gust fronts that propagate across enormous distances.  
One famous one a few years back took out electricity, trees, etc. all the way 
from Iowa to DC.  Is a derecho just a very nasty roll cloud?  Dunno.  I think I 
am not the only person to be confused about the distinction between a derecho, 
a shelf cloud, and a roll cloud.  Just excupatin’

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2022 9:18 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] Clouds as objects and duals

 

Amazing video of a "roll cloud" that seems to neatly demonstrate many of the 
things we discuss fairly often. It is extremely object-like. "It" seems to move 
around despite continuously forming and reforming itself at the boarder, while 
seeming not to "mix" with the "layers" around it. And, of course, the air 
around it is "pulling" it into place as much as the air in it is "pushing" into 
new space, so it gets at all of Steve's bidirectional-causality urges. 
Anyway... if nothing else, it is pretty damned cool to watch: 

 

 https://youtu.be/InxQlUOYAng?t=58

 

 

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Clouds as objects and duals

[thompnickson2]

It looks like a gust front where cooler air is under cutting and forcing upward 
warmer and moister air.  A bit like a lens cloud on the surface.  Would I have 
let my kids dance around on the pier under that thing?   I don’t think so. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2022 9:59 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Clouds as objects and duals

 

Very cool, Eric!

note the comment at the end how the wind stopped "like a light switch",

Here's a weather channel writeup of similar Roll Clouds near the same Sleeping 
Bear Dunes National Lakeshore 

  reported the same day from different vantage point:
  https://www.mlive.com/weather/2016/06/what_caused_amazing_roll_cloud.html

with a video:
 https://youtu.be/UXrmT8ajYpM

Here's a dramatic video of series of roll clouds over Lake Michigan a couple 
years later. You can see the extreme winds kicking as the roll clouds pass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F4d-PhfIb

 




___
stephen.gue...@simtable.com  

CEO, https://www.simtable.com  

1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505

office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828

 

 

On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:17 PM Eric Charles mailto:eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Amazing video of a "roll cloud" that seems to neatly demonstrate many of the 
things we discuss fairly often. It is extremely object-like. "It" seems to move 
around despite continuously forming and reforming itself at the boarder, while 
seeming not to "mix" with the "layers" around it. And, of course, the air 
around it is "pulling" it into place as much as the air in it is "pushing" into 
new space, so it gets at all of Steve's bidirectional-causality urges. 
Anyway... if nothing else, it is pretty damned cool to watch: 

 

 https://youtu.be/InxQlUOYAng?t=58

 

 

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Clouds as objects and duals

[thompnickson2]

Man!  

 

I don’t think that’s a roll cloud, butthen Idon’t know what the hell it is, so 
who am I to say.  Can’t research it now, but Iwill try to tomorrow. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2022 9:18 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] Clouds as objects and duals

 

Amazing video of a "roll cloud" that seems to neatly demonstrate many of the 
things we discuss fairly often. It is extremely object-like. "It" seems to move 
around despite continuously forming and reforming itself at the boarder, while 
seeming not to "mix" with the "layers" around it. And, of course, the air 
around it is "pulling" it into place as much as the air in it is "pushing" into 
new space, so it gets at all of Steve's bidirectional-causality urges. 
Anyway... if nothing else, it is pretty damned cool to watch: 

 

 https://youtu.be/InxQlUOYAng?t=58

 

 

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Jack Cowan / Visual Hallucinations and structure of Visual Cortex (was Re: dystopian vision(s))

[thompnickson2]

And always, always, remember that you are looking through the blood supply to 
your retina because it is mounted backwards.  There must be an enormous amount 
of error correction going on.  

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2022 6:26 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Jack Cowan / Visual Hallucinations and structure of Visual 
Cortex (was Re: dystopian vision(s))

 

 

 

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 5:23 PM Stephen Guerin mailto:stephen.gue...@simtable.com> > wrote:

Steve Smith writes:
>  There is surely research into how much/which psychoactives get involved in 
> modulating these processes.  

Jack (not George) Cowan gave a great lecture at BiosGroup in 2000 on this very 
topic: 

" What geometric visual hallucinations tell us about the visual cortex"
https://www.math.uh.edu/~dynamics/reprints/papers/nc.pdf

Abstract: Geometric visual hallucinations are seen by many observers after 
taking hallucinogens such as LSD, cannabis, mescaline or psilocybin, on viewing 
bright
flickering lights, on waking up or falling asleep, in “near death” experiences, 
and in many other syndromes. Kl¨uver organized the images into four groups
called “form constants”: (1) tunnels and funnels, (2) spirals, (3) lattices, 
including honeycombs and triangles, and (4) cobwebs. In general the images do
not move with the eyes. We interpret this to mean that they are generated
in the brain. Here we present a theory of their origin in visual cortex (area
V1), based on the assumption that the form of the retino–cortical map and the
architecture of V1 determine their geometry. We model V1 as the continuum
limit of a lattice of interconnected hypercolumns, each of which itself 
comprises
a number of interconnected iso-orientation columns. Based on anatomical 
evidence we assume that the lateral connectivity between hypercolumns exhibits
symmetries rendering it invariant under the action of the Euclidean group E(2),
composed of reflections and translations in the plane, and a (novel) shift–twist
action. Using this symmetry, we show that the various patterns of activity
that spontaneously emerge when V1’s spatially uniform resting state becomes
unstable, correspond to the form constants when transformed to the visual field
using the retino–cortical map. The results are sensitive to the detailed 
specification of the lateral connectivity and suggest that the cortical 
mechanisms
which generate geometric visual hallucinations are closely related to those used
to process edges, contours, textures and surfaces.



___
stephen.gue...@simtable.com  

CEO, https://www.simtable.com  

1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505 

 

office: (505 

 )995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828

 

 

On Fri, Aug 19, 2022 at 10:40 AM Steve Smith mailto:sasm...@swcp.com> > wrote:

And the retina is not a simple pixel-camera... even one with a non-uniform, 
non-rectangular distribution of photon-integrators...  there is plenty of 
processing going on between rods/cones and optic-nerve.   Do we suppose that 
*these* layers are significantly short-circuited by (some) psychadelics?

  

 

Retinal Processing Layers 

 

There is surely research into how much/which psychoactives get involved in 
modulating these processes.   

I tend to believe (with no specific references to offer) that the more 
interesting mediation/modulation DaveW gestures towards goes on further down 
the chain of processing.  Loosening up some of the (over?) model-fitting going 
on downstream from edge/contrast-enhanced perceptual info.   For example, I 
don't think that the military-industrial complex will have secret psychoactive 
drugs which replace night-vision goggles anytime soon. BUT I am more inclined 
to believe that cognition/perception - *sharpening*/*widening* pharmacology is 
already in use .   Cigarettes and Coffee were in WWII/Korea/Vietnam Rations as 
well as Bennies  . 
 Good thing the Wermacht hadn't hit on PCP 
  by then... 
  already Jacked Ubermenchen on Hydrazine afterburners?

Are all our geriatri

Re: [FRIAM] naive question

[thompnickson2]

Frank, 

 

Before I attempt an answer, can we set aside all the AI complexity and simply 
consider this question as equivalent to saying you have the combination of your 
gun safe in your mind and also on a piece of paper in your safety deposit box 
and also in an encrypted file on your computer?

 

 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2022 6:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] naive question

 

Back in the 80s I wrote many Unix shell scripts.  For my purposes they ran 
identically on various workstations whether Sun, SG, or, eventually, Vax 
(running Unix).  The software existed in my mind/brain, in files in the various 
filesystems, or on paper listings.  What's wrong with my thinking?

 

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 3:52 PM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I can't speak for anyone else. I'm a simulationist. Everything I do is in terms 
of analogy [⛧]. But there is no such thing as a fully transparent or opaque 
box. And there is no such thing as "software". All processes are executed by 
some material mechanism. So if by "computational metaphor", you mean the 
tossing out of the differences between any 2 machines executing the same code, 
then I'm right there with you in rejecting it. No 2 machines can execute the 
same (identical) code. But if you define an analogy well, then you can replace 
one machine with another machine, up to some similarity criterion. Equivalence 
is defined by that similarity criterion. By your use of the qualifier "merely" 
in "merely the equivalent", I infer you think there's something *other* than 
equivalence, something other than simulation. I reject that. It's all 
equivalence, just some tighter and some looser.

[⛧] Everyone's welcome to replace "analogy" with "metaphor" if they so choose. 
But, to me, "metaphor" tends to wipe away or purposefully ignore the pragmatics 
involved in distinguishing any 2 members of an equivalence class. The literary 
concept of "metaphor" has it right. It's a rhetorical, manipulative trick to 
help us ignore actual difference, whereas "analogy" helps us remember and 
account for differences and similarities. "Metaphor" is an evil word, a crucial 
tool in the toolkit for manipulators and gaslighters.


On 10/20/22 13:27, Prof David West wrote:
> 
> Marcus and glen (and others on occasion) have posted frequently on the 
> "algorithmic "equivalent" of [some feature] of consciousness, human emotion, 
> etc.
> 
> I am always confronted with the question of of "how equivalent?" I am almost 
> certain that they are not saying anything close to absolute equivalence - 
> i.e., that the brain/mind is executing the same algorithm albeit in, perhaps, 
> a different programming language. But, are their assertions meant to be 
> "analogous to," "a metaphor for," or some other semi/pseudo equivalence?
> 
> Perhaps all that is being said is we have two black boxes into which we put 
> the same inputs and arrive at the same outputs. Voila! We expose the contents 
> of one black box, an algorithm executing on silicon. From that we conclude it 
> does not matter what is happening inside the other black box—whatever it is, 
> our, now, white box is an 'equivalent'.
> 
> Put another way: If I have two objects, A and B, each with an (ir)regular 
> edge. in this case the irregular edge of A is an inverse match to that of 
> B—when put together there are no gaps between the two edges. They "fit."
> 
> Assume that A and B have some means to detect if they "fit" together. I can 
> think of algorithms that could determine fit, a simplistic iteration across 
> all points to see if there was a gap between it and its neighbor, to some 
> kind of collision detection.
> 
> Is it the case that whatever means used by A and B to detect fit, it is 
> _*/merely/*_ the equivalent of such an algorithm?
> 
> The roots of this question go back to my first two published papers, in _AI 
> Magazine_ (then the 'journal of record' for AI research); one critical of the 
> computational metaphor, the second a set of alternative metaphors of mind. An 
> excerpt relevant to the above example of fit.
> 
> /Tactilizing Processor
> /
> /Conrad draws his inspiration from the ability of an enzyme to combine with a 
> substrate on the  basis  of  the  physical  congruency  of  their respective 
> shapes (topography). This is a generalized  version  of  the  lock-and-key  
> mechanism  as  the  hormone-receptor  matching discussed by Bergland. When 
> the topographic shape  of  an  enzyme  (hormone)  matches  that of  a  
> substrate  (receptor),  a  simple  recognize- by-touch  mechanism  (like  two 
>  pieces  of  a puzzle  fitting  together)  

Re: [FRIAM] My Work On Earth Is Not Yet Done

[thompnickson2]

Hi, Dave, 

 

See Larding below

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 2:05 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] My Work On Earth Is Not Yet Done

Hi, Dave, 

 

Notice that in cashing out the honorable Dr. Green, you get yourself into a 
rhetorical tangle.  

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam friam-boun...@redfish.com   On 
Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 2:05 PM
To: friam@redfish.com  
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] My Work On Earth Is Not Yet Done

 

Colloquially, "in your head" signifies that construct—the self, the 
consciousness— that you do not accept as a real thing.

 

[NST===>well, the question dangling here is whether the person should be blamed 
for it or not.  It’s like that old childhood question:  Is not wanting to go to 
school going to be made better or worse by going to school.  Or, are other 
people going to get sick, if go to school.  Not clear how consciousness enters 
in.  <===nst] 

 

If one were to be charitable, one might interpret the sentence as "it is not 
psychosomatic."[NST===>Not at all clear to me what psycho somatic means, unless 
it involves some sort of assignment of blame.  If I, a diabetic eat a hot fudge 
Sunday and go into ketosis, is my coma psychosomatic? Does it matter that I did 
it as an unconscious protest against the idiocies  of contemporary diabetes 
management? <===nst] 

Reason being pain results in signals in both the body 

[NST===>Pain results in signals…  I thought pain WAS the signals.  Or even, the 
result of the signals.  So pain causes pain.  Uhuh.  I get that.  Nothing more 
satisfying than a good tautology.  <===nst] 

and the brain, so it is a phenomenon in the 'physical world of electrons and 
neurons' as well as the 'physical world of the flesh'.

 

But why be charitable?[NST===>To use Glen’s language, I don’t think the idea 
that “pain ==> pain signals in the body ==> pain signals in the brain causes 
pain” can be rescued by charity.  Nor do I think the idea that the brain is not 
in the body is capable of rescue.

 

I am an anarchist with respect to consciousness talk; we need to burn the whole 
fucker down.  See below from a dialogue eric and I wrote years ago.  Eric asks 
the questions:

 

Nick <===nst]  

 

So a robot could be made that would feel pain?

 

Well, you are cheating a bit, because you are asking me to participate in a 
word game I have already disavowed, the game in which pain is something inside 
my brain that I use my pain-feelers to palpate (contra Natsoulas, this volume). 
To me, pain is an emergency organization of my behavior in which I deploy 
physical and social defenses of various sorts. You show me a robot that is part 
of a society of robots, becomes frantic when you break some part of it, calls 
upon its fellow robots to assist, etc., I will be happy to admit that it is 
“paining”. 

 

On your account, non-social animals don’t feel pain? 

 

Well, not the same sort of pain. Any creature that struggles when you do 
something to it is  “paining” in some sense. But animals that have the 
potential to summon help seem to pain in a different way. 

 

But Nick, while “paining” sounds nice in an academic paper, it is just silly 
otherwise. The other day I felt quite nauseous after a meal. I am interested in 
what it’s like to feel nauseous, and you cannot honestly claim that you don’t 
know what feeling nauseous is like. Behavioral correlates aren’t at issue, stop 
changing the subject. 

 

What is “being nauseous” like? It’s like being on a small boat in a choppy sea, 
it’s like being in a world that is revolving when others see it as stable, it’s 
like being grey in the face and turning away from the sights and smells of food 
that others find attractive, it’s like having your head in the toilet when 
others have theirs in the refrigerator. 

 

But you have brought us to the crux of the problem. Nobody has ever 
been satisfied with my answers to these, “What is it like to be a ___?” 
questions. “What is it like to be in pain? What is it like to be a bat? What is 
it like to be Nick Thompson?” Notice how the grammar is contorted. If you ask 
the question in its natural order, you begin to see a path to an answer. “What 
is being Nick Thompson like?” “It’s like running around like a chicken with its 
head cut off.” OK. I get that. I see me doing that. You see me doing that. But 
most people won’t be satisfied with that sort of answer, because it’s the same 
as the answer to the question, “What do people like Nick Thompson do?” and 
therefore appears to convey no infor

[FRIAM] My Work On Earth Is Not Yet Done

[thompnickson2]

A highly regarded pain expert, Dr. Carmen Green, talking about chronic pain
on the pod cast of an equally highly regarded neurosurgeon, Dr.  Sanjay
Gupta: 

 

". pain is also perceived in the brain, so it's not only in your head."

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Zoom Friam

[thompnickson2]

Hi, Frank. In the midst of packing hysteria, here.  Participation doubtful.  
Please, if any topic comes up that “needs” me, msg me at 413-404-2942. Thx. N

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2022 11:13 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] Zoom Friam

 

Will start at about 9:45 MDT tomorrow (Thursday) morning.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Nick's monism kick

[thompnickson2]

And the student for mentioning pragmatism.  

 

Get those chemicals off the bench, and THEN you can ride your high horses. 

 

That’s the little-p pragmatist in me speaking. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2022 6:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's monism kick

 

My conclusion:  the Lab Tech was dumb for mentioning atoms.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 3:21 PM Eric Charles mailto:eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Two preliminaries:
1) For what it's worth, I am trying to back Nick into a different corner than 
the one Mike thinks I am but Mike is correct in seeing that I don't want to 
let Nick weasel out of the confrontation. It is perfectly valid for Nick to 
point out that he is proud of any student who takes anything from one course to 
another, but that doesn't speak to whether he would be happy or not seeing this 
particular interaction play out due to the effects of his teaching. 

2) Both Mike and Nick want to read into the lab tech something I was exactly 
excluding from the lab tech's reaction - a sophisticated understanding of the 
situation that matches what they would like to have a student glean from their 
classrooms. In the email I am currently replying to, Nick says something like 
"I don't recognize the student as saying what I would say" and to that I reply 
"Exactly!" The student isn't a stand in for you, they are a person your 
teachings have significantly influenced.  The student, *like you*, doesn't see 
the role that "real" or "fact" play in the conversation, and *like you* any 
hint of "essentialism", especially connected with something that sounds like a 
crude "materialism", makes her scoff.  

 

The basics of the initial scenario are: 

A lab tech is giving a safety warning. The student, rather than complying with 
that warning, tries to initiate a conversation about how the words used in the 
warning make it seem like maybe the lab tech could learn a thing or two about 
philosophy from Dr. Thompson (a typical sophomoric-sophomore way to respond). 
The lab tech doesn't give a shit about any of that, and reiterates the safety 
warning, elaborating it in ways that make sense *to him* by adding in words 
like "fact" and "atoms". The student scoffs even harder now, because this poor 
fellow can't even understand that she is trying to help him learn how to think 
better. As you listen in the hall, the student's responses might not be 
*exactly* what you would say in her place, but it is obvious that she is 
*trying* to do the type of conversation you modeled in your class, and that 
what is happening is due to your influence as an instructor. The culmination of 
the back and forth is that, because the student is doing everything other than 
complying with the warning, the lab tech - in his role as the person charged 
with maintaining lab safety - kicks her out of the chemistry lab. 

And the basic questions to Nick were:
How do you feel witnessing that? Proud, worried, confused? Does it sound like 
the student was getting the message you intended, or has the intended message 
gone awry?

In the second version, I tried to make the culmination of the interaction even 
more extreme, so that the key aspect of the interaction - that the student was 
responding to a safety warning by talking philosophy - was even more obvious. 
As the conversation continues, the increasingly exasperated lab tech brings in 
more and more potentially-irrelevant terms and concepts for the student to 
smugly nit pick, until eventually the thing-being-warned-about actually occurs 
and several people are grievously injured.  

 

How was I hoping Nick would respond? I was hoping it would look something like 
this: 

1) No, I would not be happy if I overheard that interaction.
2) She misunderstood X and/or she apparently didn't grok the part where I 
explained Y.
3) If I had done a better job in the classroom, she would have cared about 
understanding what his warning meant in terms of practice. (And I imagine 
anything that Nick adds to illustrate this point would lines up pretty well 
with Mike's dialog.) 


 

If Nick has finally wrapped his head around the scene being played out, I still 
want to hear from him what X and/or Y are. GIVEN that the student seems to have 
a reasonable - if imperfect - understanding of the conversational side of 
things, i.e., given that the student is saying things to the Lab Tech that are 
very close to what you (Nick) would say in the student's place, what exactly is 
it that she failed to appreciate about the point of view you were presenting? 

 

 

On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 11:51 PM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > w

Re: [FRIAM] Nick's monism kick

[thompnickson2]

Mike and Eric, 

 

I have deleted Jon from this thread because I  have reason to believe is bores 
him.

 

I woke up this morning with my own version of the pragmaticist maxim.

 

The thing is just all the evidence of the thing.  

 

And then I realized that there is a paradox hidden in that proposed aphorism 
that irritates me.  That makes me want to rewrite it perhaps as follows: 

 

The thing is a model inspired by all the evidence of the thing.

 

Now I have gotten very close to Peirce’s:

 

All thought is in signs.

 

My monism is pretty primitive, childlike, even.  God aside, all that is comes to

us through experience, including of course, via experiences of other’s 
experiences.  Now, I quickly have to admit that some experience is built into 
our bodies through natural selection.  But then, I think, I am done making 
concessions.   

 

I am perhaps guilty, in the first instance, of trying to keep an argument 
alive.  Perhaps I should have said I find the original hypothetical just 
stupid.  Whether we are talking of atoms or talking of flasks, we are always 
talking of consequences, relations in experience.  When we speak of flasks, the 
web of experience to which we refer is teensy; when we speak of atoms, it is 
vast.  

 

As you both should know by now, I find arguments between different kinds of 
monists nugatory.  Once one has declared oneself a monist,  which kind of 
monist one is, as Peirce would say, is “Just a matter of language.”  Arguing 
for one form or another, except as a matter of taste, demeans the cause and 
reveals the contestants as closet dualists.   I would not have encouraged my 
student to “accuse” the tech of “materialism”.  I find switching back and forth 
between Holt’s materialism and Perry’s neutral monism largely inconsequential.  
Like deciding whether to wear black or dark blue socks today. 

 

What follows in your discussion is fascinating, and sounds like perhaps the 
beginning of an essay.  However, I don’t think it has much to do with my 
admittedly primitive monism.  Now that Mike is really retired, I would love to 
hitch his wagon to our “Cognitive Psychology Sucks” star, either as a 
collaborator or a worthy opponent.  For reasons I cannot justify, I want to 
continue to publsh.  But ever since my first success (which seems miraculous in 
retrospect) I have been unable to hitch Mike’s wagon to any star at all.  I am 
not sure he shares (you share) Eric’s and my pitiably narcissitic desire to see 
our names in academic journals.  Indeed, I am not even sure that Eric will 
share that desire, now that he has been promoted to God at OMB. 

 

So now I am going to have some breakfast. 

 

Nick

 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: thompnicks...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 11:51 PM
To: 'Eric Charles' 
Cc: 'M. D. Bybee' ; 'Jon Zingale' 
; friam@redfish.com
Subject: RE: Nick's monism kick

 

Dear Friends,  

 

Eric has prompted me to wade into this thread, but I confess I have not well 
understood the issues, even from the start.   So much of subsequent 
characterization of my position feels so foreign to me that I don’t now how to

relate it to what I believe.   As understand the three of us, Mike is trying to 
represent the True Peirce, I am trying to represent the Peirce position insofar 
as it is a monist position, and Eric is trying to understand Peirce insofar as 
he agrees with James.  But I cannot even follow those usual themes through the 
present discussion.  

 

Even the original hypothetical was confusing to me.  Of course the web of terms 
employed by the lab tech, Pragmatically viewed, encapsulates a broad network of 
knowledge concerning when things explode.  And I suppose, therefore, Mike might 
see me as anti-Pragmatic (and merely pragmatic) when I stress the relation 
between mixing THESE flasks under THESE CIRCUMSTANCES and bad consequences.  I 
accept that criticism, but I don’t really see him making it.  

 

Lab tech: What? I'm talking about a real danger, and I need you to be careful 
so it doesn't happen.  
Student: Yes, exactly, you believe that those experiences will follow if 
certain experiences happen now. 
Lab tech: Huh? No. I'm telling you how the physical atoms work. I mean... 
yes... the part about the explosion is something that would happen under 
certain circumstances in the future, but the chemical reaction and the damage 
it could cause are well known facts.

 

I never really understood how the words real and facts are working in this 
hypothetical and why the Labtech thinks that their safety, in the instant, is 
better guaranteed by knowing about atoms, than by knowing to keep the two 
flasks separate.  

 

As for the rest, I am completely lost.  I really need to pull it out into a 
single document and study the damn thing.  I am torn between an impulse to 
ca

Re: [FRIAM] Nick's monism kick

[thompnickson2]

Dear Friends,  

 

Eric has prompted me to wade into this thread, but I confess I have not well 
understood the issues, even from the start.   So much of subsequent 
characterization of my position feels so foreign to me that I don’t now how to

relate it to what I believe.   As understand the three of us, Mike is trying to 
represent the True Peirce, I am trying to represent the Peirce position insofar 
as it is a monist position, and Eric is trying to understand Peirce insofar as 
he agrees with James.  But I cannot even follow those usual themes through the 
present discussion.  

 

Even the original hypothetical was confusing to me.  Of course the web of terms 
employed by the lab tech, Pragmatically viewed, encapsulates a broad network of 
knowledge concerning when things explode.  And I suppose, therefore, Mike might 
see me as anti-Pragmatic (and merely pragmatic) when I stress the relation 
between mixing THESE flasks under THESE CIRCUMSTANCES and bad consequences.  I 
accept that criticism, but I don’t really see him making it.  

 

Lab tech: What? I'm talking about a real danger, and I need you to be careful 
so it doesn't happen.  
Student: Yes, exactly, you believe that those experiences will follow if 
certain experiences happen now. 
Lab tech: Huh? No. I'm telling you how the physical atoms work. I mean... 
yes... the part about the explosion is something that would happen under 
certain circumstances in the future, but the chemical reaction and the damage 
it could cause are well known facts.

 

I never really understood how the words real and facts are working in this 
hypothetical and why the Labtech thinks that their safety, in the instant, is 
better guaranteed by knowing about atoms, than by knowing to keep the two 
flasks separate.  

 

As for the rest, I am completely lost.  I really need to pull it out into a 
single document and study the damn thing.  I am torn between an impulse to 
capitalize on Mike’s participation and the fact that I have much else on my 
plate right now. 

 

Are we perhaps writing something here?   If so, I will  try to do my best to 
put aside everything else and pitch in.  

 

I love you guys, honest!

 

Nick 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Nicholas Thompson  
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 12:47 PM
To: Eric Charles 
Cc: M. D. Bybee ; Jon Zingale ; 
friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: Nick's monism kick

 

I am at the moment living in a remote colony of rich peoples shacks, Hence no 
Internet.

 

But I like the question so well I am forwarding it to the list. I will get back 
to you when I do not have to thumb my answer.

N

Sent from my Dumb Phone


On Aug 30, 2022, at 11:27 AM, Eric Charles mailto:eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> > wrote:



Nick, 

You have been asking for "an assignment", and I think I finally thought of a 
good one for you. (And I think it might spur some interesting discussion, which 
is why others are copied here.) 

 

Imagine that you are still teaching at Clark, and that you have been 
tentatively including your current monism more and more in some of the classes. 
When walking by the Chemistry labs, you recognize the voice of an enthusiastic 
student you had last quarter,, and you start to ease drop. The conversation is 
as follows:

Lab tech: Be careful with that! If it mixes with the potassium solution, it can 
become explosive, we would have to evacuate the building.
Student: What do you mean?
Lab tech: If the potassium mixes with chlorides at the right ratio, then we are 
*probably* safe while it is in solution, but if it dries up, it is a hard-core 
explosive and it wouldn't take much to level the whole building. We would have 
to take that threat seriously, and evacuate the building until I made the 
solution safe. 
Student: Oh, a predictions about future experiences, I like those! 
Lab tech: What? I'm talking about a real danger, and I need you to be careful 
so it doesn't happen.  
Student: Yes, exactly, you believe that those experiences will follow if 
certain experiences happen now. 
Lab tech: Huh? No. I'm telling you how the physical atoms work. I mean... 
yes... the part about the explosion is something that would happen under 
certain circumstances in the future, but the chemical reaction and the damage 
it could cause are well known facts. Look, man, if you aren't here to learn how 
to be safe with the chemicals, then maybe you should just leave. 
Student: Wait, seriously? You aren't some kind of *materialist* are you?!? You 
know anything we could talk about are *just* experiences, right? It's 
experiences all the way down!

Listening in, you can tell that the student is taking this line based on your 
influence, because it sounds like things they were kinda-sorta starting to 
grock in your class. 

How do you feel hearing that? Proud, worried, confused? Does it sound like th

Re: [FRIAM] Nick's monism kick

[thompnickson2]

Did you guys not get this?

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: thompnicks...@gmail.com  
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2022 2:59 PM
To: 'Mike Bybee' ; 'Eric Charles' 

Cc: 'Jon Zingale' ; friam@redfish.com
Subject: RE: Nick's monism kick

 

I think this comes very close to our discussion on operationism.  My response 
to eric’s challenge on that score was his “quantity” argument, which he himself 
disavowed.  The attempt to identify a concept by a single operation or even by 
operations within a single paradigm is operationism, which I, as a pragmatist, 
condemn.  However, the sum of all conceivable operations is the pragmaticist 
“meaning” of the concept.  Now, in disavowing this “Quantitative” distinction 
between operationism and pragmatism, Eric seems to be reaching for some 
“essence” which is aside from all operations that might flow from adoption of 
the concept.  I wrote you both about this, and neither has replied.  

 

Now, as to the dialogue.  I would be proud of the student by the fact that she 
has carried anything from the psycho building to the chemistry building.  Most 
students go through a complete brainwashing when they pass out into the 
quadrangle.  Finally, I would be proud of her holding her ground with the lab 
tech, even when such heavy artillery is brought to bear on her.  

 

As to the substance, I find the Lab Tech’s response oddly incoherent.  First he 
appears to ding her for her flat affect.  “Look, kid,  some consequences are 
more… um… consequential than others.  Don’t you feel the heat of that 
explosion?” On that point, I agree with him.  Emotional consequences are 
consequences.  We could do experiments on them.  

 

But then he seems to be dinging her for not understanding that the dire 
consequences arise from molecular events rather than from bad lab technique, as 
if they become more consequention when they are understood in atomic terms.  As 
if their “dangerousness” is attached to their “atomicness”.  This argument felt 
to me like some sort of creepy essentialism, I and wanted no part of it.  I 
would have been even more proud of the student if she had responded, 
“Respectfully, sir, that makes no sense to me at all.  What is truly dangerous 
here, what I must be steadfastly warned against, is mixing these two substances 
under particular circumstances, or even composing a mixture that might, though 
inattention, find itself under those circumstances.   True, atomic principles 
might help me anticipate dangers with other solutions, but the danger is in the 
explosion, not in the atoms.  

! 

In my year at Harvard, two of my classmates were thrown out for a chemistry 
experiment pursued in their dorm rooms that resulted in an explosion.  The 
students defended themselves before the Dean (my uncle, as it happened), on the 
ground that the two chemicals involved could not have exploded!  The chemistry 
department agreed.  Nonetheless, the Dean threw they out, but with a Deanly 
wink encouraging application for re-admission in the following year.  

 

Have I answered your question?

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Mike Bybee mailto:mikeby...@earthlink.net> > 
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2022 1:03 PM
To: 'Nicholas Thompson' mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >; 'Eric Charles' 
mailto:eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> >
Cc: 'Jon Zingale' mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com> >; 
friam@redfish.com  
Subject: RE: Nick's monism kick
Importance: High

 

 

 

I’ve been waiting for Nick to weigh in on this.  

Is it about time for the new academic conversation to begin?  

I think Eric’s imagined a wonderful dialogue here.  

First, it’s in the context of chemistry, Peirce’s paradigm for 
how-to-do-philosophy, so this makes Peirce’s point perfectly.  

Second, Eric has situated it as a discussion between a lab tech and 
a student, not between a chemistry professor and a student.  That makes the 
whole thing far more poignant—but makes the whole tension between the Peirce’s 
levels of discourse so in-your-face as well.  

Anyway, 

I’m really curious to see how Nick will address Eric’s adventitious 
example, and I don’t want this to get lost in the autumn leaves!  

 

 

 

 

 

From: Nicholas Thompson 
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 10:47 AM
To: Eric Charles mailto:eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> >
Cc: M. D. Bybee mailto:mikeby...@earthlink.net> >; 
Jon Zingale mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com> >; 
friam@redfish.com  
Subject: Re: Nick's monism kick

 

I am at the moment living in a remote colony of rich peoples shacks, Hence no 
Internet.

 

But I like the question so well I

Re: [FRIAM] Nick's monism kick

[thompnickson2]

I think this comes very close to our discussion on operationism.  My response 
to eric’s challenge on that score was his “quantity” argument, which he himself 
disavowed.  The attempt to identify a concept by a single operation or even by 
operations within a single paradigm is operationism, which I, as a pragmatist, 
condemn.  However, the sum of all conceivable operations is the pragmaticist 
“meaning” of the concept.  Now, in disavowing this “Quantitative” distinction 
between operationism and pragmatism, Eric seems to be reaching for some 
“essence” which is aside from all operations that might flow from adoption of 
the concept.  I wrote you both about this, and neither has replied.  

 

Now, as to the dialogue.  I would be proud of the student by the fact that she 
has carried anything from the psycho building to the chemistry building.  Most 
students go through a complete brainwashing when they pass out into the 
quadrangle.  Finally, I would be proud of her holding her ground with the lab 
tech, even when such heavy artillery is brought to bear on her.  

 

As to the substance, I find the Lab Tech’s response oddly incoherent.  First he 
appears to ding her for her flat affect.  “Look, kid,  some consequences are 
more… um… consequential than others.  Don’t you feel the heat of that 
explosion?” On that point, I agree with him.  Emotional consequences are 
consequences.  We could do experiments on them.  

 

But then he seems to be dinging her for not understanding that the dire 
consequences arise from molecular events rather than from bad lab technique, as 
if they become more consequention when they are understood in atomic terms.  As 
if their “dangerousness” is attached to their “atomicness”.  This argument felt 
to me like some sort of creepy essentialism, I and wanted no part of it.  I 
would have been even more proud of the student if she had responded, 
“Respectfully, sir, that makes no sense to me at all.  What is truly dangerous 
here, what I must be steadfastly warned against, is mixing these two substances 
under particular circumstances, or even composing a mixture that might, though 
inattention, find itself under those circumstances.   True, atomic principles 
might help me anticipate dangers with other solutions, but the danger is in the 
explosion, not in the atoms.  

! 

In my year at Harvard, two of my classmates were thrown out for a chemistry 
experiment pursued in their dorm rooms that resulted in an explosion.  The 
students defended themselves before the Dean (my uncle, as it happened), on the 
ground that the two chemicals involved could not have exploded!  The chemistry 
department agreed.  Nonetheless, the Dean threw they out, but with a Deanly 
wink encouraging application for re-admission in the following year.  

 

Have I answered your question?

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Mike Bybee  
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2022 1:03 PM
To: 'Nicholas Thompson' ; 'Eric Charles' 

Cc: 'Jon Zingale' ; friam@redfish.com
Subject: RE: Nick's monism kick
Importance: High

 

 

 

I’ve been waiting for Nick to weigh in on this.  

Is it about time for the new academic conversation to begin?  

I think Eric’s imagined a wonderful dialogue here.  

First, it’s in the context of chemistry, Peirce’s paradigm for 
how-to-do-philosophy, so this makes Peirce’s point perfectly.  

Second, Eric has situated it as a discussion between a lab tech and 
a student, not between a chemistry professor and a student.  That makes the 
whole thing far more poignant—but makes the whole tension between the Peirce’s 
levels of discourse so in-your-face as well.  

Anyway, 

I’m really curious to see how Nick will address Eric’s adventitious 
example, and I don’t want this to get lost in the autumn leaves!  

 

 

 

 

 

From: Nicholas Thompson 
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 10:47 AM
To: Eric Charles mailto:eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> >
Cc: M. D. Bybee mailto:mikeby...@earthlink.net> >; 
Jon Zingale mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com> >; 
friam@redfish.com  
Subject: Re: Nick's monism kick

 

I am at the moment living in a remote colony of rich peoples shacks, Hence no 
Internet.

 

But I like the question so well I am forwarding it to the list. I will get back 
to you when I do not have to thumb my answer.

N

Sent from my Dumb Phone


On Aug 30, 2022, at 11:27 AM, Eric Charles mailto:eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com> > wrote:



Nick, 

You have been asking for "an assignment", and I think I finally thought of a 
good one for you. (And I think it might spur some interesting discussion, which 
is why others are copied here.) 

 

Imagine that you are still teaching at Clark, and that you have been 
tentatively including your current monism more a

Re: [FRIAM] VFriam

[thompnickson2]

Ah, yes, work.  I remember that.  That, and skiing and sex. 

Nick 

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen?C
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 10:42 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] VFriam

Spurn? No. I just have to work most Thursdays. But thanks for thinking of me!

On 9/15/22 07:39, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks, Frank.  I will join you soon after noon, eastern.  FWTW.  Or as Glen 
> would say, pftt.  By the way, why does Glen Spurn Thursdays?  I miss him.


-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] Don't forget your flu shots, ...

[thompnickson2]

>From The Hill, below.  The burden is that the flu season is going to be
lousy, and that some are doubting the Administration's recommendation that
one get the covid and flu vaccine at the same time.  Apparently getting the
flu vaccine too early can lead to it's effectiveness waning in the late
winter.  So, perhaps get your booster today and your flooster late in
October?  I have already had both, so my die is cast.  

 

(Signed)

 

NannyNIck

 

Health experts are warning the nation to brace for what could be an
exceptionally severe flu season this fall and winter, as more people who
have not built up immunity over the last few years mix and mingle. There are
two big reasons why more people could be vulnerable to the flu this year.  

 

The first is that with coronavirus restrictions such as the wearing of masks
all but forgotten, people are more likely to come into contact with the flu
virus this year than over the last two years.  The second reason is that
fewer people are likely to be immune from the flu virus this year because
fewer people have been getting the flu over the last two years - as the
pandemic locked people down and as people worried more about getting
COVID-19.  

Richard Webby, a virologist at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's
infectious diseases department, said the past two flu seasons simply have
not seen the same levels of exposure to the flu. 

 

"As a population, our immunity to the flu is down a bit," Webby said. "When
the virus comes back, it's probably going to have a little bit more room to
spread, a little bit more room to potentially cause disease." 

In a normal year, exposure to the influenza virus generates some community
immunity as about 10 to 30 percent of people are exposed to the flu in a
normal season. But fewer people were exposed in 2020 and 2021, resulting in
a decline in natural immunity. For example, pediatric flu deaths normally
exceeded 100 every year before the pandemic.  

But the past two flu seasons have seen reported pediatric flu deaths fall
under 40, with only one pediatric death confirmed in 2020. This lowered
population immunity means that people are at a higher risk of contracting
the flu this year, according to Webby. 

 

Amesh Adalja,   senior scholar at
the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security at the Bloomberg School of
Public Health, said the flu season for the past two years has essentially
been "nonexistent" and added that this trend was always bound to end once
social distancing became less practiced.  According to Adalja, evidence of
the flu picking back up is a sign that people are returning to "some
semblance of their life pre-COVID."  

 

The Southern Hemisphere is giving the United States a preview of sorts of
what is to come.  It's been winter in the Southern Hemisphere, and those
countries have experienced a tough flu season. Australia, as one example,
experienced its worst flu season in five years, with the rate of cases
peaking earlier than it usually does in the country.  In both 2020 and 2021,
the Australian Department of Health and Aged Care noted a lower rate of
reported flu cases and severity, with only 37 laboratory-confirmed
flu-associated deaths reported in 2020 and zero reported in 2021. Flu
hospitalizations and deaths reached an all-time low in Australia last year. 

There were nearly 600 cases of laboratory-confirmed influenza in Australia
in 2021. During this year's flu season, the country has reported more than
217,000 cases, though this is still lower than in 2019, when Australia
reported more than 300,000 cases, the highest number of cases on record for
the country. 

 

Webby noted flu deaths and hospitalizations in Australia were still
relatively low this year despite the sizable flu season that the country
saw. Deaths and hospitalizations are largely driven by infections among the
elderly, and Australia still practiced precautions when it came to this
demographic. 

 

If such precautions are also taken in the U.S., then higher flu
hospitalizations and deaths could similarly be avoided, Webby said. 

Experts who spoke with The Hill agreed that what was observed in the
Southern Hemisphere appeared to be something of a return to a normal flu
season, one that was not "suppressed" by the COVID-19 pandemic. Both Webby
and Adalja were doubtful that a "twindemic" of both flu and coronavirus
would occur this year.  "I don't think that these two viruses can sort of go
gangbusters at the same time," Webby said.   

 

With the recent authorization of the bivalent COVID-19 booster dose, the
White House has begun recommending that people receive both their booster
shots and flu shots at the same time, hoping to avoid surges of both
viruses.  For the 2022-2023 flu season, the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention has stated that September and October are good times to get
vaccinated. With many COVID-19-conscious people likely to get their booster
shots sooner than la

Re: [FRIAM] VFriam

[thompnickson2]

Thanks, Frank.  I will join you soon after noon, eastern.  FWTW.  Or as Glen 
would say, pftt.  By the way, why does Glen Spurn Thursdays?  I miss him.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2022 8:10 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] VFriam

 

Will begin around 9:45 MDT today.  God willing.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] signal and noise

[thompnickson2]

I was actually rendered speechless by Jochem's post, and the website it 
contained.  

Verbose as I am, I am sure that all of you are grateful when I honor something 
with my silence.  

I am thinking more about metaphor these days and trying to reconcile metaphor 
with monism.  I may have to become a metaphor monist.  

A metaphor is real when it is that toward which our thinking trends in the very 
long run.  Oddly enough, given your alertness to dead metaphors,  a metaphor 
can lose its reality, as did "hoist by one's own petard" or change its reality 
as " shoot oneself in the foot" which I am guessing used to mean "to 
intentionally incapacitate oneself" and now means "to accidently do something 
self destructively stupid."

If we are metaphor monists, we believe that "all thought is in metaphors" and 
that all metaphors are to other metaphors.  Eric will instantly announce that  
Ihave fallen prey to blather.  Perhaps so.  But I hope to cash this out in the 
next few months.  

Nick 

N 

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, September 9, 2022 6:23 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] signal and noise

Nick, 

noise is the signal - no a koan at all, but a conjecture that all that is 
considered noise, at this point, will eventually be revealed as signal. In part 
because, I believe, that the 'noise' is essential context for interpreting the 
signal. This is based almost entirely on natural language where syntax is 
inadequate for conveying meaning.

And, I was surprised when you failed to find justification from Jochen's post 
about metaphor and how it supports (y)our long held position that it is 
"metaphors all the way down."

All,

Thank you for the thoughtful responses to my question. I take to heart Glen's 
cautions about over generalization and "othering."  None of the conversations I 
was referring to were binary, and all were comprised of nuanced polyphonic 
positions from all participants with points of agreement as frequent as 
disagreement. More empathy than othering.

It does seem to me that if and when there was any kind of 'final divergence' it 
centered around a kind of signal-noise dichotomy along with an assertion of 
'faith': e.g., anything human can do,HAL will do better; or, just say OM and 
drop acid.

davew


On Fri, Sep 9, 2022, at 10:22 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> David,
>
> I was with you until "signal is the noise".  Great Koan, but otherwise 
> useless for thought.
>
> When you say, however, that there is a signal in what others take to 
> be noise, of course I have to prick up my ears.  A great example of 
> this was that "junk" DNA which turned out to be, at least, structural.  
> It also turned out to be a mind of memory.  Junk Schmunk.
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2022 7:12 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: [FRIAM] signal and noise
>
> It seems, to me, that several conversations here—AI, hallucinogens, 
> consciousness, participant observation, and epistemology—have a common
> aspect: a body of "data" and disagreement over which subset should be 
> attended to (Signal) and that which is irrelevant (Noise).
>
> Arguments for sorting/categorization would include: lack of a Peircian 
> convergence/consensus; inability to propose proper experiments; 
> anecdotal versus systematic collection; an absolute conviction that 
> everything is algorithmic and, even if the algorithm has yet to be 
> discerned, it, ultimately, must be; etc..
>
> I often feel as if my positions on these various topics reduces, in 
> some sense, to a conviction that there is overlooked Signal in 
> everyone else's Noise; even to the point of believing the Noise IS the Signal.
>
> Is this in any way a "fair' or "reasonable" analysis?
>
> davew
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. 

Re: [FRIAM] signal and noise

[thompnickson2]

David,  

I was with you until "signal is the noise".  Great Koan, but otherwise useless 
for thought. 

When you say, however, that there is a signal in what others take to be noise, 
of course I have to prick up my ears.  A great example of this was that "junk" 
DNA which turned out to be, at least, structural.  It also turned out to be a 
mind of memory.  Junk Schmunk.  

N

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2022 7:12 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] signal and noise

It seems, to me, that several conversations here—AI, hallucinogens, 
consciousness, participant observation, and epistemology—have a common aspect: 
a body of "data" and disagreement over which subset should be attended to 
(Signal) and that which is irrelevant (Noise).

Arguments for sorting/categorization would include: lack of a Peircian 
convergence/consensus; inability to propose proper experiments; anecdotal 
versus systematic collection; an absolute conviction that everything is 
algorithmic and, even if the algorithm has yet to be discerned, it, ultimately, 
must be; etc..

I often feel as if my positions on these various topics reduces, in some sense, 
to a conviction that there is overlooked Signal in everyone else's Noise; even 
to the point of believing the Noise IS the Signal.

Is this in any way a "fair' or "reasonable" analysis?

davew

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] FW: [EXT] NWS Boston Webinar: Understanding Skew-T Diagrams Confirmation

[thompnickson2]

This may be our chance to understand these darn things. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Joseph Dellicarpini  
Sent: Monday, September 5, 2022 11:42 AM
To: nthomp...@clarku.edu
Subject: [EXT] NWS Boston Webinar: Understanding Skew-T Diagrams
Confirmation

 




 


Thank you for registering for "NWS Boston Webinar: Understanding Skew-T
Diagrams".

Join us as we show you how to interpret Skew-T diagrams (also known as
sounding plots) and how they can apply to forecasting thunderstorms, rain
and snow, or strong winds. We'll show you how the data from weather balloons
can be plotted on a Skew-T diagram to show the vertical profile of
temperature, moisture, and wind. 

Please send your questions, comments and feedback to:
 joseph.dellicarp...@noaa.gov 

How To Join The Webinar 

Thu, Sep 8, 2022 7:00 PM - 8:00 PM EDT

Add to Calendar:
 OutlookR Calendar |
 Google CalendarT |
 iCalR 

1. Click the link to join the webinar at the specified time and date: 



  Join
Webinar

Note: This link should not be shared with others; it is unique to you.

Before joining, be sure to
 check system
requirements to avoid any connection issues. 

2. Choose one of the following audio options: 

TO USE YOUR COMPUTER'S AUDIO:
When the webinar begins, you will be connected to audio using your
computer's microphone and speakers (VoIP). A headset is recommended.

--OR--

TO USE YOUR TELEPHONE:
If you prefer to use your phone, you must select "Use Telephone" after
joining the webinar and call in using the numbers below.
United States: +1 (415) 655-0060 
Access Code: 812-314-016
Audio PIN: Shown after joining the webinar

Webinar ID: 957-192-331 

To Cancel this Registration

If you can't attend this webinar, you may
 cancel your registration at any time.

 



 



You are receiving this email because you registered for this webinar. Your
email address and personal information will be used by the Webinar organizer
to communicate with you about this event and their other services. To review
the organizer's privacy policy or stop receiving their communications,
please contact the organizer directly.


 
 Cancel registration |
 Stop GoTo
Webinar emails |
 Report spam


This email is sent on behalf of the organizer by GoTo Webinar.


333 Summer Street | Boston, MA 02210
 Privacy Policy |
 Anti-spam Policy |
 www.goto.com/webinar C2022 GoTo, Inc.

 

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] FW: [EXT] [Latest News] OTC Hearing Aids Are Finally Here, Phonak Audéo vs Audéo Life, and More

[thompnickson2]

Perhaps nothing.  But I would look for Bluetooth connectivity, programmability, 
and easy interaction during the fitting and adjustment phase.   I like 
hear.com, who sells Signias.  CR has an evaluation of hearing aids, but I am 
not at all sure what it is based on.  I got some 600 dollar ones last summer on 
trial, and they were useful but a bit brutal.  As advertised on the Al Franken 
podcast.  I don’t remember the names.  HearingTracker.com has a long form 
questionnaire you can take and then the recommend hearing aids to you on the 
basis of your answers. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2022 3:17 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: [EXT] [Latest News] OTC Hearing Aids Are Finally Here, 
Phonak Audéo vs Audéo Life, and More

 

What's the difference between the $300 hearing aids I often see advertised -- 
even before the new FDA rule -- and the $2,000 hearing aids advertised on the 
Hearing Tracker site?

 

-- Russ Abbott   
Professor Emeritus, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

 

 

On Wed, Aug 17, 2022 at 10:38 AM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi,

 

I recommend this website.  Not sure I want to know how they get paid.  However, 
they are a constant stream of information about hearing aids, new models, etc.  

Also, they have a questionnaire which then leads to recommendations for 
different hearing aids.  Seems somewhat evenhanded.  

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Hearing Tracker mailto:upda...@news.hearingtracker.com> > 
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:47 AM
To: mailto:nthomp...@clarku.edu> >
Subject: [EXT] [Latest News] OTC Hearing Aids Are Finally Here, Phonak Audéo vs 
Audéo Life, and More

 







  

 

 





News Update


- August 17, 2022 -








 

 FDA Clears Way for OTC Hearing Aids for People with Mild to Moderate Hearing 
Loss


The US Food and Drug Administration finalized its rules for the creation of a 
new class of over-the-counter (OTC) hearing aids that is designed to make 
amplification more affordable and accessible to consumers (ages 18+) with mild 
to moderate hearing loss. Five years in the making, these new rules provide a 
path for consumers to purchase hearing aids directly from stores or online 
retailers without the need for a medical exam, prescription, or a fitting by a 
licensed hearing care provider.

 



 

 



 

 Phonak Paradise: Audéo vs Audéo Life


In this video, HearingTracker Audiologist Matthew Allsop provides an overview 
of the differences between the standard Phonak Audéo vs the new "waterproof" 
Life model. 

 





 

 Opinion: Consumers Still Need Telecoils and Hearing Loops–Even If They Have 
Bluetooth Hearing Aids


While Bluetooth LE Audio solutions like Auracast may be coming, telecoils and 
hearing loop systems remain the proven and existing assistive systems for 
hearing aid users—today.

 





Press Release
 

 Google Maps Adds Hearing Loops to Website for Hearing Aid Telecoil Users


Google Maps is now including hearing loops in the accessibility information on 
its website, which should prove useful for users of hearing aids, cochlear 
implants, and other listening devices that employ a telecoil. 

 





Press Release
 

 GN Audio Launches ReSound OMNIA for Better Natural Listening and Hearing in 
Noise


GN Hearing—the Denmark-based maker of ReSound hearing aids and a global hearing 
healthcare leader—announced the launch of ReSound OMNIA, a hearing aid platform 
designed to set a new standard in hearing technology and improve how people 
interact with the world around them.

 





Press Release
 

 GN to Launch Jabra Enhance Plus Earbuds in New OTC Hearing Aid Category


On the heels of yesterday’s issuanc

[FRIAM] FW: [EXT] [Latest News] OTC Hearing Aids Are Finally Here, Phonak Audéo vs Audéo Life, and More

[thompnickson2]

Hi,

 

I recommend this website.  Not sure I want to know how they get paid.  However, 
they are a constant stream of information about hearing aids, new models, etc.  

Also, they have a questionnaire which then leads to recommendations for 
different hearing aids.  Seems somewhat evenhanded.  

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Hearing Tracker  
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:47 AM
To: 
Subject: [EXT] [Latest News] OTC Hearing Aids Are Finally Here, Phonak Audéo vs 
Audéo Life, and More

 







  

 

 





News Update


- August 17, 2022 -








 

 FDA Clears Way for OTC Hearing Aids for People with Mild to Moderate Hearing 
Loss


The US Food and Drug Administration finalized its rules for the creation of a 
new class of over-the-counter (OTC) hearing aids that is designed to make 
amplification more affordable and accessible to consumers (ages 18+) with mild 
to moderate hearing loss. Five years in the making, these new rules provide a 
path for consumers to purchase hearing aids directly from stores or online 
retailers without the need for a medical exam, prescription, or a fitting by a 
licensed hearing care provider.

 



 

 



 

 Phonak Paradise: Audéo vs Audéo Life


In this video, HearingTracker Audiologist Matthew Allsop provides an overview 
of the differences between the standard Phonak Audéo vs the new "waterproof" 
Life model. 

 





 

 Opinion: Consumers Still Need Telecoils and Hearing Loops–Even If They Have 
Bluetooth Hearing Aids


While Bluetooth LE Audio solutions like Auracast may be coming, telecoils and 
hearing loop systems remain the proven and existing assistive systems for 
hearing aid users—today.

 





Press Release
 

 Google Maps Adds Hearing Loops to Website for Hearing Aid Telecoil Users


Google Maps is now including hearing loops in the accessibility information on 
its website, which should prove useful for users of hearing aids, cochlear 
implants, and other listening devices that employ a telecoil. 

 





Press Release
 

 GN Audio Launches ReSound OMNIA for Better Natural Listening and Hearing in 
Noise


GN Hearing—the Denmark-based maker of ReSound hearing aids and a global hearing 
healthcare leader—announced the launch of ReSound OMNIA, a hearing aid platform 
designed to set a new standard in hearing technology and improve how people 
interact with the world around them.

 





Press Release
 

 GN to Launch Jabra Enhance Plus Earbuds in New OTC Hearing Aid Category


On the heels of yesterday’s issuance of final rules for Over-the-Counter (OTC) 
hearing aids by the US Food & Drug Administration (FDA), GN Hearing confirms 
today its intention to launch Jabra Enhance Plus, a miniaturized true wireless 
earbud that delivers a 3-in-1 experience of hearing enhancement, music, and 
calls, in the OTC hearing aid category with the ambition to bring hearing 
support to the millions in the US who have mild or moderate hearing.

 




Advertisement

 



 

 

 




 





 

 Cancer Chemotherapy Side Effects: Hearing Loss and Tinnitus


"As a cancer survivor who is an audiologist, I have experienced the anxiety 
associated with my diagnosis and the added stress of just how the cancer was 
going to be managed. Although I have produced several publications and 
presentations on cancer treatments and hearing loss, it is a completely 
different experience when you are the patient."

 





Product Review
 

 Jabra Enhance Pro Hearing Aids from Costco


The Jabra Enhance Pro is available in three different model choices in eight 
different color options, and all are IP68 rated. Costco currently lists the 
rechargeable m

[FRIAM] FW: [EXT] News Alert: ‘Extreme heat belt’ will impact more than 100 million Americans: study

[thompnickson2]

I recommend the interactive tool that is included in this article.  Oddly, the 
risk for a heat wave, as is locally defined, goes up more in New England than 
in New Mexico.  Oddly enough, even tho it is much drier in NM, the temperature 
at which locals perceive a heat wave is 5 degrees COOLER in NM than it is in 
NE.  (That the predictions take no account of humidity may make them simply 
stupid.  ) I had always thought that MA, with its nearby ocean, might serve as 
a refuge for global warming.  How’d that work out for Seattle!

 

Anyway, something to play with. 

 

N

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: The Hill  
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2022 12:05 PM
To: nthomp...@clarku.edu
Subject: [EXT] News Alert: ‘Extreme heat belt’ will impact more than 100 
million Americans: study

 

Click in for the latest news from The Hill.

 

 






  
 
View Online 


 




  
 

 



News Alert


 



News Alert


 

 





 

 





 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 




 

 ‘Extreme heat belt’ will impact more than 100 million Americans: study

 


As record-high temperatures recently swept across several parts of the U.S. 
this summer, new data on heat risks forecast an “extreme heat belt” will emerge 
in large parts of the country by 2053.

 

 

 Read the full story here.

 



 





 

 



 

 

 



 

[FRIAM] Monsoon Information Page

[thompnickson2]

https://www.weather.gov/twc/MonsoonInfo 

This page speaks of an upper level high over the SW.  Can a surface low live
under an upper level high?  Gotta go to bed. 

n

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] Monsoon Information Page

[thompnickson2]

https://www.weather.gov/twc/MonsoonInfo 

So, here is where I get confused.  This page seems to confirm that the
monsoon is the result of LOW pressure over the SW.  

N

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] FW: monsoon

[thompnickson2]

Hi, all, 

 

Back in June, when sF had all that rain, I wrote a smart-alecky letter to the 
abq weather office asking it the pattern was truly a monsoon pattern.  The 
result is below.  I am bewildered (as you can imagine) because I thought  that 
the monsoon had to do with a weakness in the subtropical belt of high pressure 
that rings the globe at about SF’s latitude in the summer, a thermal low 
pressure area caused by the intense heating of the SW deserts.  .  

 

As I say, I know nothing.  

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: SR.ABQ Webmaster - NOAA Service Account  
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 10:03 PM
To: thompnicks...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: monsoon

 

Hi Nicholas,

 

Sorry for the late reply to your email.

 

The weather pattern we have been in since mid June is a monsoon. The monsoon 
flow is dependent on the position of the four corners high.

 

If you would like a detailed explanation of the synoptic setup during the 
monsoon feel free to click on the link provided below.

 

https://www.weather.gov/abq/prepawaremonsoonhome 

 

Hope that answers your question and feel free to email us back if you have any 
further questions.

 

Many thanks.

 

--


  

 


 


National Weather Service


Albuquerque, New Mexico


   888.386.7637


  sr-abq.webmas...@noaa.gov 
 


  

  

  

  



2341 Clark Carr Loop SE | Albuquerque, NM 87106





 

 

On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 11:05 AM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Dear ABQ, 

 

I am writing with a question.  Although professionally a bio-psychologist, I 
have studied the weather as an amateur for more than 70 years.  Your office, 
particularly your former colleague Timothy Shy, was kind enough to answer such 
inquiries in the past, so I hope one of you could take a few moments to answer 
this one.  As always, feel free to direct me to internet links.  

 

Is the present weather pattern truly a monsoon?  I can see that the situation 
has some features of a monsoon, and I can absolutely see why NWS is not 
interested dickering with the public over fine points:  It’s summer, it’s 
raining, that’s really all we need to know. 

 

The reason I asking is that, while I spend most of the year in Santa Fe,  I am 
in New England at the moment, where we are experiencing a bout of cool weather, 
many days rainy.  I associate your monsoons with New England’s hot humid 
weather, which occurs when the Bermuda High builds backwards into the SE US.  
The thermal low over the desert SW now becomes the “seam” between the Pacific 
and the Atlantic subtropical highs, and moisture pours in from Gulf of Mexico 
and the Sea of Cortez. 

 

The present situation is a classic omega block, no?  It presumably arises more 
from global circulatory forces and less so from regional heating differentials. 
 

 

Please feel free to fob me off with a web-link or two.  I know you are busy. 

 

Thank you for what you do. 

 

Nick Thompson

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Advice sought: data compromise

[thompnickson2]

I just want to thank everybody who helped me out, here. 

 

I followed your advice.  I started at the bottom of the tree, and verified 
every phone number, etc., from the bottom up, so I was able to confirm every 
bit of information in the letter without using any information in the letter.  
I then signed up with Kroll and froze all my accounts with Equifax, etc.  

 

So far, so  good. 

 

Nick

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 5:06 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Advice sought: data compromise

 

Anonymity is your friend.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Sun, Aug 14, 2022, 3:04 PM Roger Critchlow mailto:r...@elf.org> > wrote:

I got a "data security incident notification" in the mail from the 
"Professional Finance Company, Inc." of Livonia, Michigan that offered me an 
account with "Cyberscout" to monitor my online credit.  That sounded so 
sketchy, that I ignored it.  It turns out to be entirely true, one of the 
largest data incidents of the year.  Still doesn't validate the url's that the 
mail encourages me to use, but that is the real name of a real medical debt 
collection agency that really lost millions of client records.

 

-- rec --

 

 

On Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 8:49 PM Gillian Densmore mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Nick, scan Call your Doctor in the morning to double check. Alas Ma'man. 
Scammers tend to target people about your  uh mmpf. Uh 'stage of life'.  "local 
health care provider" or any other generic name is instant redflag for scam. 
Just to be sure ping your doctor.

A data leak wouldn't hit just you. And you'd be reading on the news how 
poodlesec, or Anonymous goatsed some a database. A vague email or call is a 
scam. 

I get a a lot of scam and spam calls, if something sounds like Bull(removed at 
someones request) smells like, etc probably is. Don't over thing it and trust 
your gut.

I get sus af emails and calls, sometimes claiming to be from tmobile. I just 
check the web or my account or w/e from time to time. 

 

On Fri, Aug 12, 2022 at 8:01 AM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> > wrote:

And consider putting a temporary lock on your credit. It should be free with 
any of the 3 big credit reporting agencies. I used equifax 
 when my 
info was leaked. The lock simply means you (or anyone impersonating you) has to 
jump through a few more hoops to get a loan or whatever.

On 8/12/22 06:53, Steve Smith wrote:
> Nick -
> 
> If I understand your story correctly, I would start by verifying the "local 
> health care company".  If they are someone you do business with, then you can 
> contact them otherwise through "normal" channels (not website/e-mail) that 
> you already trust (you do business with them already?)   It is not good 
> practice for *them* to be directing you to a third-party "monitoring" site in 
> they way they seem to be.   If you do NOT do business with them already then 
> it is almost assuredly a phishing attempt.  Or maybe more appropriately a 
> "phlushing" attempt... what predators do to try to get prey to panic and 
> expose themselves so they can pounce and/or run you to ground.
> 
> Hope your summer is going well otherwise!
> 
> - Steve
> 
> 
> On 8/12/22 4:12 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>> Yes, Nick,
>>
>> Stay in your cage of distrust.  I will be very surprised if you ultimately 
>> determine that this _wasn’t_ a scam.  Maybe even add a bar or two to your 
>> cage walls: I would generally not log into a link received in an email, if 
>> there weren’t some way I could initiate the contact with a known company 
>> through some website that the various certifiers think is theirs.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 12, 2022, at 10:24 AM, >>  > >>  > wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi, everybody,
>>> Sorry for  the bother.
>>> A local health care company writes me to say they have compromised all my 
>>> identity data, and offers to pay for “Kroll Monitoring Services”, giving me 
>>> an ID number with which to log into their site.  When I do this, the site 
>>> fills in my correct address and last name but an incorrect first name, and 
>>> asks me to enter all my identity data.  At this point, I begin to 
>>> contemplate that the notice itself may be a fraud.  I eventually find Kroll 
>>> on the web, but it wasn’t all that easy.  None of the sites that evaluate 
>>> credit monitoring services has it.  How do I extricate myself from my cage 
>>> of distrust?
>>> Nick
>>> Nick Thompson
>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com  

-- 
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. ..

[FRIAM] Advice sought: data compromise

[thompnickson2]

 

Hi, everybody,  

 

Sorry for  the bother.

 

A local health care company writes me to say they have compromised all my
identity data, and offers to pay for "Kroll Monitoring Services", giving me
an ID number with which to log into their site.  When I do this, the site
fills in my correct address and last name but an incorrect first name, and
asks me to enter all my identity data.  At this point, I begin to
contemplate that the notice itself may be a fraud.  I eventually find Kroll
on the web, but it wasn't all that easy.  None of the sites that evaluate
credit monitoring services has it.  How do I extricate myself from my cage
of distrust?  

 

Nick

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Isness: Using Multi-Person VR to Design Peak Mystical-Type Experiences Comparable to Psychedelics

[thompnickson2]

Roger, 

 

Many years ago, during my very brief weedy period, I was with a group of people 
who wanted to smoke pot, but had none.  I suggest that we “enact” it: i.e., do 
everything we would do if we had pot, but  without the pot.  You know, the 
passing  of the toke, the avoidance of burning the fingers, the squinting, the 
sucking, the oh wowing, etc.  It went very well, so well in fact that some 
participants became uneasy and opted out.   During that same time, we had a 
friend who would behave badly at restaurants after a few glasses of wine.  We 
plotted against him, substuting our empty glasses for his full one so he had 
the impression he was drinking much more than he actually was. The embarrassing 
behavior went ahead anyway.   N

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2022 10:05 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] Isness: Using Multi-Person VR to Design Peak Mystical-Type 
Experiences Comparable to Psychedelics

 

https://arxiv.org/abs/2002.00940

 

This must be on some topic around here.  

 

Originally picked up from 
https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/08/06/1056727/vr-virtual-reality-psychedelics-transcendence/,
 which is paywalled.

 

The original arxiv posting is 20 years old, but the work was just published inh



CHI 2020: Proceedings of the 2020 CHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing 
Systems

-- rec --

 

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] self-care

[thompnickson2]

Sarbajit,

 

Could you post materials on the Guttmacher dispute and the science behind it?  

 

I am guessing that this is all new to us. 

 

As to hypocrisy, the term is only appropriate to a unified system, usually a 
person.  But perhaps the metaphor works the other way around.  Perhaps people 
are just badly integrated systems, hence sin in all its form, deception, 
hypocrisy, loving thy neighbor too well, and all of that!  So instead of saying 
that governments are sort of like people, we might say that people are sort of 
like governments.  

 

N

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy
Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:57 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] self-care

 

The hypocrisy of the US govts is amazing.

For decades they have been desperately promoting pill based self induced 
abortions as "safe" abortions in India and Latin America through their puppets 
like the Guttmacher Institiute and by using misrepresentations and outright 
lies.

These pills are highly toxic / carcinogenic and Guttmacher was caught red 
handed by us for using fake accounts on Wikipedia to shape the "self induced 
abortion" article to depict it as safe and as an at-home remedy. We got 
Guttmacher delisted in India for about a year, but they made their way back 
through the USAID RMNCHA programs used to bribe foreign government servants to 
shape policy

Sarbajit

 

On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 8:52 PM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> > wrote:

In the aftermath of the activist Justices overturning RvW, this popped up in my 
feed:

How to Give Yourself an Abortion
https://jewishcurrents.org/how-to-give-yourself-an-abortion

I remain torn on the issue of self-care. And lots of energy was added to my 
oscillators with the whole "horse dewormer" thing for COVID-19. (Yes, I'm 
poking fun both at the people who bought veterinary ivermectin and the people 
who used the disgusting sneer "horse dewormer".) To boot, this post came up 
this morning about a homeopathic packet sent home with the patient after 
surgery: https://centerforinquiry.salsalabs.org/2022cfimidyearemailversion11. 
(Placebo is a thing, despite Blumner's write-off.)

Nick is fond of asking people whether they take multivitamins or not. And while 
it's true most experts claim that *healthy* people just pee them out. *Who* 
amongst us actually qualifies as "healthy"? What does "health" even mean? 
That's not an idle or rhetorical question. Am I "healthy", despite the 
excruciating chronic pain in my shoulders, neck, and lower back? Despite my 
sporadic debilitating migraines? Despite my now abated follicular lymphoma? 
Sure, I *seem* healthy because I can do pull-ups, shovel dirt, drink 5 pints 
without a hangover, and maintain a full-time job with a bit of time for 
hobbies. But what you see from the outside doesn't reflect what I feel on the 
inside, which is like a sick puppy where the slightest bad event would topple 
me into the "disabled" category. "Healthy" is at best a misinformation concept, 
at worst a malinformation concept: 
https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/mdm-incident-response-guide_508.pdf

Sneer all you want at the new-age descendant reading self-help books, cutting 
out magazine ads for their "vision board", or self-administering veterinary 
de-fetus pills, but there's something important, here. Fad diets, bottled 
water, alcoholism or pregnancy as an indicator for moral failure, etc. all 
point at that thing, whatever that thing is.

In that context, self-administered abortion is legit.

-- 
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] monsoon

[thompnickson2]

Dear Phellow Phriamers, 

 

I seem, knock wood, to be back in the saddle again. 

 

I have a question which I hope one of you will address,  Roger?  

 

Is the present weather pattern truly a North American monsoon?  I can see
that the situation has some features of a monsoon, and I can absolutely see
why NWS is not interested in dickering with the public over fine points:
It's summer, it's raining, that's really all we need to know.  Still, I am
in New England at the moment, where we are experiencing a bout of cool
weather, many days rainy.  I associate your Santa Fe's monsoon with New
England's hot humid weather, which occurs when the Bermuda High builds
backwards into the SE US.  The thermal low over the desert SW now becomes
the "seam" between the Pacific and the Atlantic subtropical highs, and
moisture pours in from Gulf of Mexico and the Sea of Cortez.

 

The present situation is a classic omega block, no?  It presumably arises
more from global circulatory forces and less so from regional heating
differentials.  It bears a greater relation to what happened in the Pacific
NW last summer, than to a classic Southwest US Monsoon, eh?  

 

While (if?) I have your attention, can you give me some way to think about
the relative  effects on air density of adding water vapor and adding heat
temperature?  Some sort of thing like, 3 degrees of dewpoint equals 1 degree
of temp. It's almost assuredly not linear. 

 

Nick 

 

 

 

 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Fríam Attendance

[thompnickson2]

Holy, crap, john.  What’s happening to us.  I had a bad encounter with a 
roadside rock and have been hobbling around like an old man for the last two 
week.   Mending is really hard at this age.  Sounds like you have good medical 
attention. I am pulling for you.  

 

n 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of John Dobson
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2022 8:07 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fríam Attendance

 

i  got to Iowa last week, fully intending to participate in Virtual Friam.  But 
last Friday evening i decided to schlep a table downstairs to the basement.  I 
arrived before it did.  I have a shattered left tibia and am still in the 
hospital in Ames.  I only had to be ambulanced to Des Moines instead of Denver 
for surgery.  I'll sign in when i can.

 

John

 

On Fri, Jun 10, 2022 at 8:37 PM Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote:

This week there were about five total attendees at the  virtual meeting on 
Thursday but not necessarily present at the same.

At the in-person meeting at St John's there were also five attending but they 
all were there for the whole meeting.

 

At the latter we discussed the impact of the pandemic and wondered whether it 
interrupted the routine nature of attendance and caused people to feel that 
Friam wasn't worth the effort.  Apparently many people have decided not to 
return to work for reasons like that.

 

College applications are down too.  I have a dear friend who is depressed by 
the whole COVID gestalt.

 

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Fríam Attendance

[thompnickson2]

Thanks, Frank, for the report. 

 

It will probably be two weeks before I get to Thuam.  I still can’t drive.  

 

I look forward to getting my mind going again. 

 

N

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2022 9:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] Fríam Attendance

 

This week there were about five total attendees at the  virtual meeting on 
Thursday but not necessarily present at the same.

At the in-person meeting at St John's there were also five attending but they 
all were there for the whole meeting.

 

At the latter we discussed the impact of the pandemic and wondered whether it 
interrupted the routine nature of attendance and caused people to feel that 
Friam wasn't worth the effort.  Apparently many people have decided not to 
return to work for reasons like that.

 

College applications are down too.  I have a dear friend who is depressed by 
the whole COVID gestalt.

 

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Peirce, Buddhism, Monism, Behaviorism, oh my!

[thompnickson2]

How dare you other me!

n

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 10:17 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Peirce, Buddhism, Monism, Behaviorism, oh my!

Reminds me of a hallmark of cults. NXIVM, Scientology, Rand v Branden, Martin 
Luther, ... There's an endless list of "inner circle" people who "get it" vs 
heretics who don't. On this list, we talk a lot about if and when the 
properties of individuals obtain for the collective. You know, "emergence" and 
all that. So here's one. I've always thought the "love bombing" of narcissists 
maps well to cult-like othering. Arguing over the meanings of words like 
"pragmati[ci]sm" is yet another example of a tried and true technique for 
othering the heretics. When you're one of us, we say things like "People like 
us ..." and "You and me, we get it." (Look deep into my eyes.) When you're the 
target, the inner circle says things like "You just don't get it. You need to 
read this book ... and that book ... and do this meditative exercise ... take 
this drug ..." If they've decided you don't belong, that you just can't quite 
get through the uncanny valley, then no matter what you say, how you say it, 
what you do, how you do it, the Cool Kids will find some way to keep you 
othered.

In the case of the Randians, Scientologists, and NXIVM's Sororium and 
Protectors, it's best (but risky) if your MLM pyramid is a strict hierarchy ... 
get your most local circle to other the next circle out. You, as cult leader, 
don't want to have to maintain the boundary of the 2nd tier. You want to 
concentrate on maintaining the 1st tier and delegate the maintenance of lower 
tiers ... plausible deniability and all that. It's risky because delegation 
relies on shared values. Too many free thinkers spoils the pudding.

One way of ensuring shared values is to base them on reality. Another, simpler, 
way is rigorous hermeneutics. Initiations, degrees, sacred texts, hazing, ... 
it's all necessary to preserve the mystique, to preserve the Following, the 
purity of the flock.

Of course, there's also the other side. From the social othering of the 
Weinsteins (Brett and Harvey) and Sam Harrises to the scitech othering of the 
Robert Rosens and Nikola Teslas, an othered outcast can create their own inner 
circle with the shared value of being misfits, dilettantes, self-styled 
renaissance people  ... "free speech absolutists", etc. The tactics are the 
same for these inverted cliques. Misfits have bona fides, too, reliable litmus 
tests for effective gatekeeping.

On 5/31/22 02:03, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/282-do-you-really-have-a-self/id
> 733163012?i=1000563340865 
>  d733163012?i=1000563340865>
> 
> Jay Garfield promotes his book */Losing the Self /*on the Sam Harris Podcast. 
>  I can see no evidence that Garfield ever read a word of Peirce, but It’s 
> fascinating how closely he tracks Peirce’s monism.  Fascinating, also, to see 
> how Harris never quite gets it, repeatedly trying to drag the outside/inside 
> distinction back into the conversation, while slathering praise on Garfield 
> for eliminating it.  Reminds me of James’s failure to ever quite “get” 
> Peirce.  But then it was James who died a neutral monist.  Oh well.
> 
> Reminded me of all the times that Dave West has accused me of being a closet 
> Buddhist.


--
Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- 
--- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom  
bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom  
bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] Peirce, Buddhism, Monism, Behaviorism, oh my!

[thompnickson2]

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/282-do-you-really-have-a-self/id733163
012?i=1000563340865

 

Jay Garfield promotes his book Losing the Self on the Sam Harris Podcast.  I
can see no evidence that Garfield ever read a word of Peirce, but It's
fascinating how closely he tracks Peirce's monism.  Fascinating, also, to
see how Harris never quite gets it, repeatedly trying to drag the
outside/inside distinction back into the conversation, while slathering
praise on Garfield for eliminating it.  Reminds me of James's failure to
ever quite "get" Peirce.  But then it was James who died a neutral monist.
Oh well.  

 

Reminded me of all the times that Dave West has accused me of being a closet
Buddhist. 

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom  
bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] summer reading

[thompnickson2]

Dear FRIAMMERS,

 

I am off to the Mosquito-Infested-Swamp (Hereafter, "MIS") soon and probably
won't be able to participate in THUAM this Thursday.  I will try to rejoin
you at least by the second week of June, if for only as long as my car
battery can hold out.  

 

I leave you with two podcasts from Ezra Klein.  I can hear your eyes rolling
because there can hardly be anybody more elitey than Ezra Klein.  And
nothing is more eye-roll inducing than elites-interviewing-elites. 

 

Still, I think he is on to something here.  The first interview is with a
hard right notre dame professor, and the second is with Anne Applebaum,who I
guess is a liberal historian.  Both speak to a manner in which the right and
the left might seem to agree.  That all the talk about freedom both on the
left and on theright  misses the point that "freedom is just another word
for nothin' much to loose." Modern society has become cytolytic and the
internet has become a kind of centrifuge that spins out the cell fragments
into an organization alien to their form.  Universities are kinda like that.


 

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/what-does-the-post-liberal-right-actua
lly-want/id1548604447?i=1000561003813

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/anne-applebaum-on-what-liberals-misund
erstand-about/id1548604447?i=1000561763183

 

Applebaum, channeling Arendt, speaks of "loneliness", not as a phenomenon of
not being around people, but of having lost a sense of common purpose in the
people around one.  Hence this atavistic longing for the Good Old America.
Now what nobody in this conversationseems to remember is that these cells
were often bound to gether by hatred of one another.  When we moved into the
MIS a half a century ago, there were two camps, two well defined THEY'S
which were not accompanied by equally well defined WE'S.  But one said was
loosely catholic and the other loosely protestant, and so they each had a
church to go an grumble in.  Now, even those camps have been dissolved.  

 

I am wondering if there was ever such a thing as a community that was not,
in significant part, based on a hatred for the communities around it. 

 

Nick 

 

 

 

 

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom  
bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

[thompnickson2]

Yes.  Or course.  Alito.  

 

N

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 8:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] (no subject)

 

Wasn't it Alito?   That would doom Social Security.  Also people would be 
outraged.  

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Sun, May 8, 2022, 7:14 PM Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Is there anything in the draft Scalia decision that would prevent states from 
mandating a one child policy? I.e. Mandating sterilization after one birth.

 

Sent from my Dumb Phone

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom  
bit.ly/virtualfriam  
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom  
bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Thursday Friam

[thompnickson2]

Sounds good to me.   Soon that’ll be noon, my time.  Breakfast. 

 

N  

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 12:44 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] Thursday Friam

 

How would it work to change the time of the Thursday meeting to 10:30am MDT?  A 
number of regulars don't arrive until that time anyway and a conflict has 
emerged for me at 9:00.  

 

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom  
bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Enamine

[thompnickson2]

Jochen, 

 

There are no Nazis in Ukraine.

 

Perhaps a bridge too far?  I regret to say that there are SOME nazis in 
Ukraine.   Evidence: an npr (?) reporter embedded with them.  Perhaps not more 
than there are in the US, or Germany, at the moment.  But they are there, they 
are, many of them battle hardened, and they are fighting on “our” side.  For 
good or ill.   I say this because eventually one of them will turn up on State 
TV in Moscow, and we have to be prepared for that.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 12:52 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Enamine

 

Zelensky is Jewish. There are no Nazis in Ukraine. Russia behaves like Nazi 
Germany because it invades - unprovoked - an innocent democratic country. I am 
afraid you are repeating Russian state propaganda.

 

The headline at theguardian.com is right now: "children buried in rubble after 
Russian airstrike on Mariupol hospital". Please tell me what kind of special 
military operation this is? Is it the one Tolstoy describes in "Special 
military operation and peace" ?

 

-J.

 

 

 Original message 

From: Sarbajit Roy mailto:sroy...@gmail.com> > 

Date: 3/9/22 19:31 (GMT+01:00) 

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> > 

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Enamine 

 

Marcus if I can clarify some of this.

The "West Ukrainian" people feel BETRAYED by Russia's attack on their country, 
As fraternal Slavs they did not expect it considering their past history with 
Russia.


Putin is making it clear that he is not targeting the Ukrainian people, per se, 
but the ZELENKSY regime personally. The "Z" stands for Zelenksy regime  which 
has incorporated "neo-Nazi" armed irregular divisions which fought the East 
Ukranians into the regular Ukranian army.


The Russian battle against these "Nazis" will be fought in Mariuopl and perhaps 
Odessa, and it will be extremely brutal and uncivilised.

Putin has also sent in mainly conscripts (although he denies it) elsewhere as 
(a) it bloodies them cheaply and b) they are less brutal than his hardened 
troops and foreign mercenaries who will be used in urban warfare assaults 
against the southern port cities.

Lastly as a reminder, Putin was prepared for deaths of 150 of his own civilians 
to take out 40 hardcore Chechen rebels in the Oct 2002 opera house hostage 
crisis. Something unacceptable in the West.

Sarbajit

 


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam 
 
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Pressurized air in pipelines?

[thompnickson2]

For some reason, this is the sort of thread that really interests me.  Please 
keep going.

 

Oh, And!  Did anybody ever respond to my  post about pneumatic trains with 
gravity determined acceleration?   

 

N

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Michael Orshan
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2022 2:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pressurized air in pipelines?

 

Hi Tom

 

We’ve met before in Santa Fe but it was years ago.  

 

Mike Orshan

mors...@breezesqueeze.com  

 

On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 10:53 AM Tom Johnson mailto:jtjohnson...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Thanks, ya'll.

   

 

On Fri, Feb 18, 2022 at 11:38 AM glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Michael Orshan:

https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/2022-February/091628.html

On 2/18/22 09:29, Tom Johnson wrote:
> Who was the guy last week talking about using pressurized air in pipelines as 
> a power source?  Any ID and contact points appreciated.
> Tom Johnson

-- 
glen
When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam 
 
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam 
 
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] Dogs can better detect Covid in humans than lateral flow tests, finds study | Dogs | The Guardian

[thompnickson2]

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/may/20/dogs-can-better-detect-
covid-in-humans-than-lateral-flow-tests-finds-study

What is the probability I have covid if I have been sniffed by a dog?  


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] food for thought sheer number no adblocker no browsing

[thompnickson2]

Though the world it shakes and the world it rocks,

I almost never log out of my Debian Box.

Though I may pause to strengthen my nether abs

I can also return to my Copy Tabs.

 

I love it when you guys talk dirty. 

 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of ? glen
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2022 6:44 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] food for thought sheer number no adblocker no browsing

 

I can't live without Copy Tabs. Even though I almost never log out of my Debian 
box, I still have to close the browser sporadically. And I always have tabs 
open to remind me of work I'm supposed to do. Plus, the log I paste into 
provides rabbithole documentation.

 

 

On February 12, 2022 2:14:59 PM PST, Gillian Densmore < 
 gil.densm...@gmail.com> wrote:

>What all are folks "must have" extensions? 

-- 

glen ⛧

 

 

.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam

un/subscribe   
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

FRIAM-COMIC   http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

archives:

5/2017 thru present   
https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/

1/2003 thru 6/2021    
http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] We all need boster-boosters!

[thompnickson2]

Interesting, Marcus.  What particularly grabbed me is that the longevity of the 
monoclonal antibodies is two months LONGER than the longevity of the booster 
shot.  

 

Go figure.

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2022 10:48 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] We all need boster-boosters!

 

And there is this now.  If you need it, you probably already know about it. 

 

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-authorizes-new-long-acting-monoclonal-antibodies-pre-exposure

 





On Feb 11, 2022, at 1:38 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
  wrote:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/11/world/covid-19-tests-cases-vaccine#new-cdc-data-adds-to-evidence-that-boosters-protection-against-severe-covid-plunges-after-four-months

Have any of you tried to get a 4th shot?

N


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] We all need boster-boosters!

[thompnickson2]

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/11/world/covid-19-tests-cases-vaccine#n
ew-cdc-data-adds-to-evidence-that-boosters-protection-against-severe-covid-p
lunges-after-four-months

Have any of you tried to get a 4th shot?

N


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] ... --- ...

[thompnickson2]

.-.. ..- -.-. -.- -.-- / -- .- -. .-.-.- / -  --- ... . / .-- . .-. . / - 
 . / - .. -- . ... -.-.--

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 10:32 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] ... --- ...

 

../-.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - ./ -.-. --- -. ... - .-  -. - .-.. -.--

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our Democracy

[thompnickson2]

Does anybody (else) remember a proposal for pneumatic tube trains connecting NE 
cities.  The air pressure would provide a minimal part of the energy for 
acceleration and deceleration.  Most of it would be provided by boring the 
tunnels so deeply into the ground that gravity would provide both.  

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Michael Orshan
Sent: Monday, February 7, 2022 9:51 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our 
Democracy

 

Renewable has three issues right now and generation is not one of them, yet 
most people focus on generation.  The issues are intermittency, transmission 
lines and financing new assets.  We are forcing the retirement of revenue 
producing assets they have been paid for.  By storing air in pipelines until 
needed we are solving intermittency.  By generating closer where the energy is 
used we are greatly reducing the need for transmission.  By reusing the 
infrastructure we are saving a paid for asset.  Yes the conversion efficiency 
is low, but who cares.  The storage is incredibly huge.  Inertia energy itself 
pays for itself 50x this way and its instant.  Look up Long Duration Energy 
Systems.  This is the scramble that is going on right now.  

 

On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 6:46 PM Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

The conversion losses seem like a big issue?

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Michael Orshan
Sent: Monday, February 7, 2022 5:42 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our 
Democracy

 

Marcus

 

That is a famous prototype.  Recently Hydrostor made headlines building new 
CAES plants.  The main issue is the need of a salt cavern.  The amount of 
possible sites is very small.  The caverns are used to mine salts for 
bleaches/chemicals or to store natural gas.  This tech is $111/kwh.

 

On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 6:14 PM Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

For comparison

 

https://schaperintl.com/is-the-juice-worth-the-squeeze-compressed-air-energy-storage-for-grid-scale-power/

 

   

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Michael Orshan
Sent: Monday, February 7, 2022 3:42 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our 
Democracy

 

Hi Frank:

 

We need any, but hopefully renewable energy, to generate power for the 
compressors.  This also creates heat which we can recycle for more electricity 
or use for industrial purposes.  Our efficiency isn't high, but once we are in 
the pipelines we have a huge battery.  60 miles, 36 inch diameter can hold 
240MWh.  We can be instant inertia energy or generate.  Our storage costs are 
about $50/kwh.  Batteries are $400/kwh for example.  Also, we can store 
compressed air for months upon months.  Also, if we can build the renewables 
close enough to the plant we can go DC/DC which is a 25% energy savings not 
having to convert to AC.  

 

On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 11:05 AM Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote:

How do you compress the air?  Any method I can think of uses energy.  >From 
what source?

 

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,  

 
Santa Fe, NM 87505 

 

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Mon, Feb 7, 2022, 10:57 AM Michael Orshan mailto:mors...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi.  I'm a reader more than a contributor, but the Hydrogen discussion is close 
to my day to day.  

 

Many of us in renewables think Hydrogen might mostly be kick the can as Steve 
mentioned.  It is something that might be economically feasible in the 2030s 
and so the length of time oil companies sell oil increases.  Having said that, 
there are a number of very pricey Hydrogen projects getting funded.  That might 
be showing how profitable the O&G industry is.  

 

I'm working with a company we call Breeze  .  It 
uses compressed air in pipelines to move turbines at power plants.  Without 
fossil fuels or using water this is getting a lot of attention.  There are many 
advantages such as cold air where compressed air is released that can be used 
by data centers.  25% of all GHGs come from generating electricity.  45% of all 
water used in the US is used to create electricity.  

 

We see this as a better option than Hydrogen.  We do think Hydrogen fuel cells 
are a solution for mobile ap

[FRIAM] FW: Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our Democracy

[thompnickson2]

That’s a great article.  Hydrogen comes in colors,  Who knew?  Thanks.  N

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, February 6, 2022 9:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our 
Democracy

 

https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/

 





On Feb 6, 2022, at 7:20 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
  wrote:

 

Grey hydrogen?

https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/
 


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our Democracy

[thompnickson2]

Grey hydrogen?

https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-developm
ent/ 


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Upcoming 60 Minutes broadcast

[thompnickson2]

George, 

 

We haven’t heard from you since that marvelous party two years ago.  The memory 
of that party has kept me going through this covid debacle.  “Normalcy” is my 
mind is defined by being able to do that sort of thing again.  Perhaps a year 
from now. 

 

What have you been doing?   

 

Nick 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of George Duncan
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 3:28 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: Upcoming 60 Minutes broadcast

 

This "60 Minutes" segment should be of interest to many FRIAM folk.

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com  

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895  

Mobile: (505) 469-4671

 
My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and 
luminous chaos.

 


"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then 
be a valuable delusion."


>From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn. 


"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." 
Joanna Macy.



 

-- Forwarded message -
From: Marcel Just mailto:j...@cmu.edu> >
Date: Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 2:16 PM
Subject: Upcoming 60 Minutes broadcast
To: Just, Marcel mailto:j...@cmu.edu> >

 

Dear colleagues,


  I wanted to let you know that "60 Minutes" is scheduled to broadcast a 
segment on Sunday Nov. 24 that describes the research that my colleagues and I 
have been doing.
  They refer to our work as "mind-reading." What it actually consists of is 
measuring brain activity with fMRI, and from that pattern of activity being 
able to tell what the person is thinking about.
  The 60 Minutes program will probably focus on some of the practical 
applications of this method. For example, this method makes it possible in the 
work with David Brent to tell whether a person has been thinking about suicide, 
which is very useful in psychiatric applications. It also makes it possible for 
us to see the activation pattern for very advanced abstract scientific 
concepts, like "dark matter", which looks the same in the brains of all 
faculty-level physicists.
  Normally we don't notify anyone about press coverage of our research but this 
broadcast will probably describe the work in a way that everyone can 
understand. In the past, the 60 Minutes team has done an outstanding job of 
first learning about the research themselves and then communicating it clearly 
in their program. Lesley Stahl is the interviewer.
   60 Minutes has posted a short preview of the segment on their website if you 
would like to see a sample ahead of time:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mind-reading-scientists-decode-human-thoughts-and-emotions-using-mri-and-computer-analysis-60-minutes-2019-11-20/
If you are busy this Sunday evening but are interested in seeing the full 
segment, it will probably be available on the 60 Minutes web page after the 
broadcast at:
https://www.cbsnews.com/60-minutes/


Best regards,
Marcel

 

-- 

Marcel Just
D.O. Hebb University Professor of Psychology
Director, Center for Cognitive Brain Imaging
Psychology Department
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
email: j...@cmu.edu  
tel: 412-268-2791; fax: 412-268-2804
CCBI website: http://www.ccbi.cmu.edu


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] GOES-East CONUS - Derived Motion Winds - NOAA / NESDIS / STAR

[thompnickson2]

 

More evidence for Critchlow's Maxim: 

 
https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/GOES/conus_band.php?sat=G16&band=DMW&length
=12 

Note how the yellow arrows and the red arrows actually flow in opposite
directions in some places 

n


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] Critchlow's Maxim

[thompnickson2]

https://www.star.nesdis.noaa.gov/GOES/sector_band.php?sat=G16 

 §or=ne&band=GEOCOLOR&length=24

 

A couple of things to notice about this gorgeous image.  Notice the Critchlow 
Layers to the south of the center of rotation, many layers deep, and sliding in 
various different directions.  

 

Notice also the lake effect snow forming along the south coast of Lake Ontario. 
 

 

These are the days of miracles and wonders!  Don’t cry baby,, don’t cry, don’t 
cry!

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2022 10:59 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tomorrow, 12p-2 Stu Kauffman on drums at Museum Hill Cafe, 
Santa Fe

 

Not a cloud to be seen in Santa Fe.  28 F.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Sat, Jan 29, 2022, 9:54 AM Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

This time of year, it is a good idea to check the weather before heading out 
for an event. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEkhRNzbmGU





On Jan 28, 2022, at 8:40 PM, Stephen Guerin mailto:stephen.gue...@simtable.com> > wrote:

 

LOCAL MAXIMA Lunch Jam
Tomorrow, Sat 1/29 12p-2
Museum Hill Cafe, Santa Fe

Diane Johnson will be on piano and Stuart Kauffman, The Cool Daddy of 
Complexity, will be on snare drums.

(I'm psyched to play roadie).

Come up for lunch, listen to some improvised grooves and I'll buy you a sake 
bloody mary.


Video from last Saturday shows Stu passing an impromptu auditio 
 n 🙂

-S


___
stephen.gue...@simtable.com   

CEO, Simtable  http://www.simtable.com  

1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505 

office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828

twitter: @simtable

z  oom.simtable.com  bu


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam 
 
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam 
 
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] trump coin

[thompnickson2]

Hey, roger.  Speak of the devil.  On vFRIAM we were just discussing Critchlow’s 
Maxim and looking at satellite images of the storm developing off the florida 
coast. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:27 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] trump coin

 

I misheard someone talking about an echosystem the other day, which was 
actually an ecosystem, but the name has stuck in my head.  I imagine it as a 
multidimensional spin glass where each site can tune its receivers and 
transmitters to particular dimensions of the spin state.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/28/technology/trump-coins.html

 

A sample:

In one post, a fake account for Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene, a 
Georgia Republican closely aligned with Mr. Trump, shared a fake story on a 
fake Fox News website about a fake tweet by a fake Elon Musk, falsely claiming 
that Tesla’s chief executive would soon accept Trump coins as payment.

 

That's probably affiliate marketing for a steel coin painted silver and gold 
sold by two guys in Bucharest.

 

It's all about how you spin the echosystem,

 

-- rec --

 


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics

[thompnickson2]

Thank God for not trimming.  I was able to catch up on this . um .. Far
flung conversation in one go without opening a thousand messages.  Thank You
Marcus. 

 

I have only one comment:  Frank, I think  it's feteri.  Ask you daughter to
make sure.  

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 10:30 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics

 

I used to trim everything, but I tend to get accusations that was trying to
judo chop people and take them out of context.  When really, I'm just trying
to delete all distracting context.   I think that larding is ridiculous.
Reasonable people can soak up the meaning and respond without torturing
things a word at a time.  If that doesn't work, then there is probably bad
faith.

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
on behalf of glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:17 AM
To: friam@redfish.com   mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics 

 

Yeah, that's a good point. And it's relevant to SteveS' comment on the
metaphorical neutering of stereotypically identified "men". (That category
also would include the "lean in" females, i.e. those who adopt man-ish
behaviors to combat systemic sexism.) Metoo and cancel culture are taken as
Black Mirror to most of the macho conservatives I meet at the pub. But to me
it seems more like freedom. It's a negative liberty, which conservatives and
libertarians don't understand well, even though they claim to base their
ideology on it. Freedom from being forced to drive a 4 wheel drive vehicle
because, well, the government builds roads with your damned taxes. Freedom
from being mugged in the parking lot because the government pays police with
your damned taxes. Freedom from having to filter my water because the
government pays water treatment engineers to build plants and pipe potable
water to your faucet with your damned taxes.

The metaphorical neutering in progress like metoo and cancel culture is the
freedom from being pelted with shit tossed at you by bottom-feeding bullies.
Now if we could only cancel American Football, I'd be happy. >8^D ... such
an offensive game.

p.s. Y'all need to trim your posts. I just trimmed, literally, 20k of FriAM
signature fodder from that post. Electricity doesn't grow on trees!

On 1/25/22 15:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> For me, meat-in-vats or Impossible burger tech. is more to address
cruelty.   To examine what we do and how -- with apologies to Glen -- it
corrupts us.  I think Ezra Klein put it well.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/16/opinion/factory-farming-animals.html

> 
> A friend remarked on how her perception of the importance of sex has
changed as she got older.I really think a lot of our perceptions are
driven in that way, and they don't MEAN anything.   I think these sundry
appetites are very likely tunable, perhaps with some preceding machine
learning protocol to learn the right neurons to stimulate.   To some that's
Black Mirror.  To me it seems more like freedom.
> 
> Marcus
>













--
> *From:* Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > on behalf of Steve Smith
mailto:sasm...@swcp.com> >
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 25, 2022 4:17 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com   mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
> On 1/25/22 11:38 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> https://goodmeat.co/process 
>>
> 15 years ago, my daughter did her PhD research in HPV...  a great deal of
her time was spent "cloning human skin and giving it warts".   She was (is)
a died-in-the-wool vegetarian and humanitarian and s

Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics

[thompnickson2]

Wow, steve.  I didn’t know any of that.  Euthanize, whew.  Back in the day, if 
one were raising fledgling owls, the standard food consisted of male chicks, 
sexed and discarded at hatching.  Euthanization consisted of suffocating them 
in the plastic bag.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2022 12:25 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics

 

 

On 1/25/22 8:48 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

Boneless chicken breasts come from roosters?

Top hit on my google...  not sure if US is very different from AU:

https://www.chicken.org.au/are-meat-chickens-male-or-female/

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 8:45 AM Steve Smith mailto:sasm...@swcp.com> > wrote:

We neuter many/most male pets and beasts of burden, slaughter many of them 
young (e.g. this is where most of our beef and chicken come from).

We do this for various reasons that are not entirely unrelated to the larger 
conversation here...

On 1/25/22 7:35 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:

Never too late, Merle.





On Jan 25, 2022, at 9:32 AM, Merle Lefkoff mailto:merlelefk...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Yes, they should have drowned the boys.

 

On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 7:27 AM Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote:

But 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China#20th_century

 

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Tue, Jan 25, 2022, 7:16 AM Merle Lefkoff mailto:merlelefk...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Dave is right.  Development experts have known for a long time that when girls 
get educated and women hold jobs outside the home they are much more likely to 
control childbearing.  However, the culture must change everywhere, and it 
happens quite slowly with lots of pushback.  Check out the new protest and 
direct action movement that's happening with young men demonstrating in the 
streets in S. Korea.  ("A Vicious Anti-Feminist Backlash Stuns South Korea", 
Globe And Mail, 1/22.)

 

On Tue, Jan 25, 2022 at 12:40 AM Prof David West mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm> > wrote:

It has been known for a long time that the most effective means of birth / 
population control was educating girls, followed closely by empowering girls, 
e.g., with micro-loans to start businesses. I remember studying this topic way 
back in the 80s in my anthropology graduate program.

 

davew

 

 

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022, at 9:02 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Merle wrote:

 

< China's population has stopped growing--primarily because there are more 
urban educated workers, especially women. >

 

Estimate in Hawken's book was the 6th largest potential reduction for CO2 
drawdown came from educating girls.  His reference was:

 

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1206964 

 

 

 

 

  _  

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > on 
behalf of Merle Lefkoff mailto:merlelefk...@gmail.com> 
>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 9:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics 

 

China's population has stopped growing--primarily because there are more urban 
educated workers, especially women.

 

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 7:11 PM Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Excellent, Marcus. 

 

Eric, if it's less than 90% it still would have be significant.  Two problems, 
"God" has tricks for making babies.  As for 1 child per couple didn't they 
"terminate" some babies (not fetuses, feti?), particularly females?  My 
impression is that their population has grown substantially notwithstanding 
those policies.

 

Frank

 

 

---

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 

Santa Fe, NM 87505

 

505 670-9918

Santa Fe, NM

 

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 6:38 PM Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

Before I launch into a diatribe about why the hell we can't agree to basic, 
never mind interesting things:   I'd just like to report that the James Webb 
telescope is in L2 orbit.  Score one for the negotiating, patient, 
subtlety-appreciating scientists and their counterparts in government.

 

Marcus

 

  _  

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > on 
behalf of David Eric Smith mailto:desm...@santafe.edu> >
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 6:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics 

 

You know, as I read your characterization, Marcus, it took me back to

Re: [FRIAM] Struck me as funny

[thompnickson2]

Annals of thread bending!  Whew!

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2022 12:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Struck me as funny

 

Merle needs a bit of help.  I'm teaching a short online course this week for 
the U. of Ottawa, and one of the guys in my course is the Dean of the School of 
Engineering. (Why, I can't imagine.)  Anyway, his research field is 
nanotechnology.  Is it here?  Where has it been applied?  Is it an incredibly 
generative technology that will change our near-term future?  HELP, and thanks. 

 

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 10:36 AM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

New York City Mayor Eric Adams (D) on Sunday morning said the Big Apple is 
planning to dispatch mental health professionals 

  to its subway system as a way to prevent crime. He said the city is going to 
“flood our system with mental health professionals and law enforcement working 
as a team to move out the disorder that's clearly in the subway system in our 
city.”

A couch by every turnstyle?

 

A new collective?  A murder of crows; a flood of psychiatrists?

 

Rumor has it that Biden is considering sending mental health professionals to 
the Ukrainian border.  

 

Needless to say, I have volunteered. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam 
 
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/




 

-- 

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org  

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA


mobile:  (303) 859-5609

 


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] Struck me as funny

[thompnickson2]

New York City Mayor Eric Adams (D) on Sunday morning said the Big Apple is
planning to dispatch mental health professionals
  to its subway system as a way
to prevent crime. He said the city is going to "flood our system with mental
health professionals and law enforcement working as a team to move out the
disorder that's clearly in the subway system in our city."

A couch by every turnstyle?

 

A new collective?  A murder of crows; a flood of psychiatrists?

 

Rumor has it that Biden is considering sending mental health professionals
to the Ukrainian border.  

 

Needless to say, I have volunteered. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Communication guides for the elderly

[thompnickson2]

You are right, Steve.  I was overcome  also.  Perhaps even, overcome 
.. . 

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2022 11:31 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Communication guides for the elderly

Reading this, I am overcome ...

On 1/23/22 4:03 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
> Back in college one of my three closest friends was a guy (later very 
> successful as an entrepreneur) who stood out in our affections as both very 
> smart and very scattered and dotty.
>
> One evening, after some hours of basketball, three of us were sitting outside 
> into the late hours asa college kids do.  Those two were smoking and drinking 
> cokes.
>
> Ashok took a drag and blew a peaceful stream of smoke, and said 
> philosophically:
>
> “I am overcome with a sense of ….”
>
> I don’t believe he ever returned to finish that sentence, or even noticed 
> that for an instant it had seemed interesting to him to start it.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>> On Jan 22, 2022, at 4:19 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 1/22/22 2:10 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
 trigram analysis of my writing might well be dominated by that 
 signature…
>>> Nah, it’s the forward slash, marking logical or among literals.
>> good catch, I experience it as a lack of commitment to a specific 
>> term/concept/example... wanting the reader to superpose all and draw their 
>> own consonance/dissonance therefrom.  Is this perhaps what you mean by 
>> "among literals"?
>>
>> Following NST, my ellipses tend to be more intended to indicate a pause or 
>> to indicate that what may look like a sharp tangent is intended to be more 
>> of a gentle segue (in my mind).   Or maybe too lazy to make the segue smooth 
>> with actual words?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn 
>> UTC-6  
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2f%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvi
>> rtualfriam&c=E,1,qNXQCzsQdWQysG_CzZqEO-fahi8bA2STAz6j0SiAfnbpwRkQzqh0
>> oyAohbuaxyHr6ySww1hx8EyVC3ZVtbs7yXRMA-XkAM0hMTrqWSXurIFqwu-z6h4U1gCN&
>> typo=1 un/subscribe 
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmail
>> man%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,MhS8NxJEIKO2aOyaJZeYVI9YP89R
>> aF2KLNEsX6VM0AuGEOtw98-ZO3FnJL3MzCqzqyMwClAwhDDg6gE_quULA91jpLh76cIap
>> zn-fzKz1UeOVEk,&typo=1 FRIAM-COMIC 
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogsp
>> ot.com%2f&c=E,1,OQrMYWjNX0TKRhce8F7uvNtFVn2SnO-CFaTmeXXZoFRSn3U6ERqJj
>> XooDIziNHkjp_BLJEXm0FKSJF1V6pGlfliX-YHSUrYD-RmAaLGNINaX-eI,&typo=1
>> archives:
>> 5/2017 thru present 
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpip
>> ermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,-8knGYXttdwxCeWMtbX44hwMEBbzezTpJ
>> P7seG2VzUZ31k3FnuIujZ28SUdw-3mXWd65pQT8b6lGUJRS0JIu-KkpOLvIO-I0ASKHAS
>> mbqA,,&typo=1
>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn 
> UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe 
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:
>   5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe 
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/



.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Communication guides for the elderly

[thompnickson2]

Given the lethality of Australian spiders, this a heck of an image.  

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2022 1:04 PM
To: Stephen Guerin 
Cc: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Communication guides for the elderly

 

On Sat, Jan 22, 2022 at 11:17 AM Stephen Guerin mailto:stephen.gue...@simtable.com> > wrote:

as a GenX, column C missed the subtlety and expressiveness of fuck idioms. EG 
idioms on this page is probably 10% of the way there.

https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/fuck


Learned a new Aussie idiom 

  from that link that I hope to find an excuse to use :-)

1. "Mate look at this"...Barry
" Barry, we are not here to fuck spiders, get back to it."...boss

2. "Do you think we can win the championship?"...Player
"Well I am not here to fuck spiders"...Coach

3.  "Would you boys like a beer?".. Bartender
"Well, we're not here to fuck spiders..."


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

[thompnickson2]

Oh, Gawd!  What on earth, in citizen-gab, is a hidden state machine? From
whom is it hiding??  How does a machine infer it's own state, anyway.  Can a
machine mistake it's own state?   Sheeesh!


n

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2022 10:35 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

Well, this reminds me of hidden state machines and the law of requisite
variety. If we're trying to explain why humans have persnickety preferences,
including state-hiding tendencies like focusing on emotion vs brute fact,
rather than argue for a flattening of the collective human/biological
machine(s), we should look at both the machine(s) and the environment(s) in
which they're grown.

Does the state-hiding machine present a more expressive problem solver than
would otherwise be achievable without hiding state? And is that extra
expressibility necessary (or more convenient/efficient) than with an in
principle equivalent flattened (set of) machine(s)?

I'm then reminded of demonstrations (?) that zero determinant game strats,
while able to dominate in ideal contexts, don't do so well in evolutionary
contexts. So, perhaps the answer to these questions is simply "No" ... that
the hidden state doesn't provide any extra problem solving ability and the
tendency to (or advocacy of) avoid the flattening is an operable sign of bad
faith? Or, in the lingo of the laity, curmudgeons are a justified cost
because they more quickly indicate the bad actors. Get off my lawn!

And if the answer is "No", how do we explain the existence of this
"cognitive ease", this tendency to rely on stereotypes and
historicity-reinforced signs (perhaps now having lost/changed their
referents)?

On 1/13/22 16:48, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Anyway, the reason I noticed this article is that I posit that the steely
harm reduction approach that was discussed recently is in my mind a form of
stoicism.   Can one put away their emotional responses and make hard choices
based on the greater global good?   If one engages in large intimate social
networks, I would say two things are likely to happen:  1) executive
decisions become harder because there is diffusion of sensitive information,
and thus political complications in making them.  Members in the network may
not be sharing the whole factual context (preferring the emotionally laden
parts) 2) there are still dominance relations (her language), but they are
just manifest in different ways.  Namely by being in the center of a social
network and slightly censoring the information that gets passed along.
> 
> As it relates to the subject line, there may be some weak tendency one has
to share or not share by default depending on hormones/genetics.
> 
> From: Friam  on behalf of Marcus Daniels

> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:12 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality
> 
> < So, I'd argue against you completely. This essay is talking about how to
detect and operate in the presence of bad faith. And, to be clear, the bad
faith actor doesn't necessarily *know* that they're acting in bad faith. In
fact, it's a more canonical case of bad faith if the actor has simply
habituated to it. >
> 
> A contrast she draws is between petulant vulnerability and "real"
vulnerability.   That it is "scary" and "any less necessary, for men".
> There's another option which is not to use "the language of vulnerability
as a cudgel", but also not engage "the human condition of reliance on
others."  She is expressing an expectation for high intimacy, and it is
implicit that there is something wrong with keeping your distance.   I've
seen this false choice portrayed by other so-called feminists.  I don't buy
it.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> From: Friam  on behalf of glen

> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 4:55 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality
> 
> What's interesting about that essay is its appeal to character or "virtue
ethics", I think. I've tried to address this a few times in past threads,
especially when concepts like "bad faith" arise. Rittenhouse' crying looked
precisely like bad faith to me. I get accused of it a lot because I enjoy
playing roles and believe playing roles (like Devil's Advocate) facilitates
healthy reasoning. (E.g. EricC's accusation of illiberalism on my part when
condemning the anti-masker's punching of the doctor.)
> 
> So, I'd argue against you completely. This essay is talking about how to
detect and operate in the presence of bad faith. And, to be clear, the bad
faith actor doesn't necessarily *know* that they're acting in bad faith. In
fact, it's a more canonical case of bad faith if the actor has simply
habituated to it. Rittenhouse's crying on the stand and Kavanaugh's crying
in his confirmation hearings 

Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

[thompnickson2]

But only  because kin groups with altruists produce more off=spring than 
kin-groups without.  “Kin-selection” is a misnomer.  n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2022 10:49 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

 

"Couldn’t this also be part of a parcel of adaptations present in mothers to 
call an audible when her offspring are still in utero?"

 

One could imagine kin-selection-ish arguments to that extent, which would fall 
under Category 1. Under Certain Circumstances, it is the best strategy to 
contribute to the rearing of kin rather than having your own kids, and this is 
controlled to some extent by the Mother's responsiveness to said circumstances, 
as present during her pregnancy.  Mother-genes that guide advantageous 
responses to such circumstances are thereby passed on with higher frequency 
than Mother-genes that guide neutral or disadvantageous responses. 

 

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 9:50 PM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Eric, 

 

Couldn’t this also be part of a parcel of adaptations present in mothers to 
call an audible when her offspring are still in utero? 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 7:02 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

 

Frank,

Sexual orientation being associated with hormonal concentrations during 
pregnancy would be a mark in favor of the spandrel arguement: There are 
important, dynamic, developmental processes that lead to sexual-attraction 
biases. Those processes are perturbed by various environmental factors, but 
have a strong degree of equifinality regarding various parts of the process. 
Those perterbations, plus the corrective mechanisms, sometimes leads to 
homosexuality, bisexuality, and all sorts of other things. Even though that 
sometimes happens, so far the selective forces have found it better to 
sometimes do that than to try to mess with the developmental processes enough 
to avoid ever having such outcomes. So, it's a thing that happens sometimes, 
and it doesn't really affect selection as much as one might think. It is a 
pretty neutral outcome that sometimes happens at the intersection of some 
really important processes. 

 




 

 

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:21 PM Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote:

What about the evidence that sexual orientation may be associated with 
testosterone or estrogen concentrations in the womb during pregnancy.  These 
may interact with unspecified genetic factors.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296090/

 

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 7:50 PM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

You’re probably right. 

 

Perhaps bonobo sexuality is the primitive state.  

 

“Bub”

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 8:33 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

 

Nick,

No, no, no... you have the pedagogical point backwards... They are starting 
with some weird view that homosexuals are people who are absolutely exclusively 
sleeping with members of the same sex. You can't start from that and be like 
"Yeah, but once you're in the harem, there you are! Am I right!" Forget that 
fact that a huge number of gay men you and I know were at one point married and 
have kids, that's no the student's starting point (or at least it wasn't 20 
years ago). If you start with the harems, then they will knee jerk "That's not 
real homosexuality, that's not what I'm talking about."   To avoid that 
knee-jerk, you need to start by pointing out that even if their naive take on 
the phenomenon is correct, it still might not be that hard to explain 
evolutionarily. 

 

Once they are reminded that it's pretty easy math to have helpful-for-kin 
traits selected for, then you can offer the intermediary spandrel/exaptation 
option which gets them thinking that maybe there might be more to the 
discussion than they originally thought, and THEN you can point out that their 
initial premises might also just be complete garbage.  

 

Also, re Marcus's take: I think that would be a

Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

[thompnickson2]

Eric, 

 

Couldn’t this also be part of a parcel of adaptations present in mothers to 
call an audible when her offspring are still in utero? 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 7:02 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

 

Frank,

Sexual orientation being associated with hormonal concentrations during 
pregnancy would be a mark in favor of the spandrel arguement: There are 
important, dynamic, developmental processes that lead to sexual-attraction 
biases. Those processes are perturbed by various environmental factors, but 
have a strong degree of equifinality regarding various parts of the process. 
Those perterbations, plus the corrective mechanisms, sometimes leads to 
homosexuality, bisexuality, and all sorts of other things. Even though that 
sometimes happens, so far the selective forces have found it better to 
sometimes do that than to try to mess with the developmental processes enough 
to avoid ever having such outcomes. So, it's a thing that happens sometimes, 
and it doesn't really affect selection as much as one might think. It is a 
pretty neutral outcome that sometimes happens at the intersection of some 
really important processes. 

 




 

 

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:21 PM Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote:

What about the evidence that sexual orientation may be associated with 
testosterone or estrogen concentrations in the womb during pregnancy.  These 
may interact with unspecified genetic factors.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3296090/

 

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022, 7:50 PM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

You’re probably right. 

 

Perhaps bonobo sexuality is the primitive state.  

 

“Bub”

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 8:33 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

 

Nick,

No, no, no... you have the pedagogical point backwards... They are starting 
with some weird view that homosexuals are people who are absolutely exclusively 
sleeping with members of the same sex. You can't start from that and be like 
"Yeah, but once you're in the harem, there you are! Am I right!" Forget that 
fact that a huge number of gay men you and I know were at one point married and 
have kids, that's no the student's starting point (or at least it wasn't 20 
years ago). If you start with the harems, then they will knee jerk "That's not 
real homosexuality, that's not what I'm talking about."   To avoid that 
knee-jerk, you need to start by pointing out that even if their naive take on 
the phenomenon is correct, it still might not be that hard to explain 
evolutionarily. 

 

Once they are reminded that it's pretty easy math to have helpful-for-kin 
traits selected for, then you can offer the intermediary spandrel/exaptation 
option which gets them thinking that maybe there might be more to the 
discussion than they originally thought, and THEN you can point out that their 
initial premises might also just be complete garbage.  

 

Also, re Marcus's take: I think that would be a variation of the 
spandrel/exaptation explanation. Look, bub, it's pretty important to get 
natural selection going that people want to have sex. So you need a very 
reliable method of creating attraction, and you generally want it to be men 
attracted to women and women attracted to men. But the first part, the 
"attracted to someone" part is probably far more important than the "exactly 
who are you attracted to" part. As such, it's really not all that surprising to 
find men attracted to men and women attracted to women, and it's not clear that 
any special explanation beyond that is needed. 

 

 

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 3:32 PM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Eric, 

 

I think this an excellent capper to an excellent discussion.  I wish somebody 
would scrape it, perhaps edit to make it more readable, and file it somewhere 
amongst Friam’s Greatest Hits.  Somewhere, somebody should have reminded us 
that GenesFur X are really just genes that, in some devious say or other, make 
X more likely.   Is a genefur grooming a gene for maintaining group resistance 
to parasites, a gene for, building social relationships or both.  If you asked 
the gene, it would say, “I really don’t care.”  

 

Still, I might divide things up a bit differently.  

 

1.   Homo

[FRIAM] NOW IS: Oh, Woe, Academia! WAS: gene complex for homosexuality

[thompnickson2]

Eric,

Oh, I think it would be an interesting topic to discuss, if we took it on 
directly, allowing each critic to entertain the possibility that their critique 
is tainted by sour grapes.

 There are many people in this group whom I would  like to see hired by my 
university or any university.  I think  Academia would be better for it.  I 
wish the glory days of academia -- the sixties -- could have gone on for ever.  
I wish that academic Reaganism had not taken over.   I wish that we worshipped 
at John Dewey's tomb, rather than at Clark Kerr's.   I may even wish that 
academics had not come to think that they should be paid large salaries for 
doing what they would, probably,  have done in any case.  (On the other hand,  
to whom, other than such people, would I want to give large salaries?)  I long 
for the days of the egg-head professor with the elbow patches in the tweed 
jacket, taking his summer vacations in an unplumbed shack in the Adirondacks 
with his Remington Upright.  Yes, the sixties university was institutionally 
classist, racist, sexist, cis-ist,  and probably a bunch of other -ists.  But, 
nostalgic old fart that I am, I still think something has been lost. 

For me, I think FRIAM comes the closest to capturing that essence.  For many of 
the most avid contributors to this list, every 30 seconds spent savaging me for 
my naivete, is literally a dollar of income not earned. That's commitment to 
academic values!  Back at Clark, I get the sense that they are all  too busy 
meditating, doing good, not giving offence,  massaging editors at "high impact" 
journals, and winning awards as teachers to THINK any more.  

But I digress.

Nick  

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 12:34 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality


> I also wish EricS would not encourage this group to rail on academics.  

That’s a reasonable request.

I was going to say it is interesting to consider where it comes from or what it 
is doing there.

But it actually isn’t.

E




.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe 
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/



.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

[thompnickson2]

U , "siblings".  

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:36 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

This is why I found my annoyance hard to articulate.  I don’t think it is 
something about sensitivity.  I don’t have much affect one way or another about 
who is sexually interested in whom.  I find the system very interesting.  The 
thing that I think annoys me is that there is a kind of imaginationless 
boneheadedness that becomes common among academics as they go into their 
silverback phase, in which they take very crude models, and impose them on 
anything that can’t get away, whether the models belong or not.  It has the 
appearance of an all-destroying mental vanity at the cost of empiricism.

So, to be a bit more concrete:

If we are talking about viral lifecycles, where the main functions (and nearly 
the only ones) are: attach to cell surface, invade cell, use cellular machinery 
to produce proteins and a genome, maybe do some crossover with anyone else who 
might be in the same cell at the time, package it all into visions, escape and 
diffuse, generating some probability to repeat.

For that kind of model, the “replicator” in all its glorious minimality is a 
really great abstraction, and the notion of “Darwinian / Malthusian 
competition” among replicators with variant sequences is an abstraction that 
hews quite faithfully to much that is empirically real in the system.

But then, and here I want to be careful about a word you used and I didn’t, but 
should have been more specific about:

> On Jan 12, 2022, at 5:54 PM, glen  wrote:
> 
> But why would this "evolutionary explanation for X”

I wasn’t objecting in any way to evolutionary explanations.  It is a style of 
boneheaded selectionism that annoys me.  Evolution can be all of whatever 
really happens; if we have some imagination we should want to expand our 
appreciation of what-all that includes.  That’s where silverbacks often fall 
down.

All this, it will not surprise you to read, is related to my discontent this 
winter about the way genetics handles “information” that — however it should be 
defined, and on that I have opinions and constructions — depends on variations 
distributed across pangenomes that undergo lots of material dynamical 
shufflings, and later social and cultural constructs as well.  Where functional 
variation is quite localized to material variation, our abstractions and the 
habits we have built form them tend to do okay.  Where it is highly 
distributed, we often lack good abstractions at all, and through having few 
good tools and solved cases, people often haven’t developed much of a 
systematic intuition.

> be any more bizarre than any other question? That's what's interesting to me. 
> I don't see people claiming that asking about, say, a new virus variant is a 
> bizarre question to ask. Why does the subject of homosexuality evoke 
> accusations of "dumb" or "bizarre”?

So, the ad absurdum opposite to the viral replicator would be a feature 
somebody (Nick probably?) raised: sex is precisely _not_ heritable.  So to ask 
whether men or women are “fitter” in a Malthusian sense would clearly be a 
category error.

But that may not be quite the right thing to analogize to sexual orientation, 
because there are notions of heritability about it.  I am looking, for an 
analogy, to something more like:

Who is Darwin-Malthus fitter: people who engage in many punning dreams, or 
people who engage in many face-mixing dreams?  After all, I can declare a 
predicate; why am I not allowed to ask for a selectioinist explanation of it?

That seems like a boneheaded question (worse, a deliberately incurious one), 
because we have poor understanding even of what “a dream” is (as part of not 
understanding much about what cognition or states of awareness “are”), then 
about why dreams exist, what they do, how any given group are structured, how 
many structural groups one can put into a typology, etc.  It’s not that we 
understand nothing — we know a little and have some ideas — but we are _vastly_ 
further from being able to identify a formal model than we are for viral 
lifecycles.  To just blow by that distinction and try to treat punning dreamers 
and face-mixing dreamers as replicators in Darwinian competition seems “dumb” 
in the way I meant.

For the orientation question, it seems to me we have four maybe-dimensions we 
could identify that pertain:
Sexual morphology (physiological)
Sexual identity (complex physic/psuchological, but in some way maybe largely a 
“trait” of a “phenotype”) Sexual interest (the aspects that one might call an 
individual propensity) Sexual orientation (all the individual propensities 
embedded in all the layers of social engagement, convention, etc.)

Each of these ind

Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

[thompnickson2]

All,

I continue to think this discussion is of a very high quality and ==> WISH <== 
some body  had the means to coherently archive it.  

I also wish EricS would not encourage this group to rail on academics.  For 
one, I am an academic. I am also about as silverbacked as it gets: I just don't 
have the harem of females and attendant juveniles to show for it.   For two, HE 
is an academic.  Steve Gould was an academic, and he hated all this 
"Panglossian" crap.  The people who developed epigenetics were academics, after 
all.  So cut the anti-academic crap guys.  We is what we is. 

 I do agree that some of us get confused between the project of seeing what a 
minimalist selection model can do, with making the claim that such minimalist 
models are how a system works.  That is why I will always honor Carl Tollander 
for giving me, "Imagine a spherical cow."  I used to have a bit of fox fur 
tacked to a board which when you petted it, arched its back.  That was very 
good for getting students to ponder for a moment, "Hey, wait a minute, what is 
going on when a cat arches its back when petted?"  What is a response, anyway?  
Reductios have their uses.  

I did not know that Bret Weinstein was on the ivermectin train.  So now I 
REALLY DON'T trust him.  Alas, he seemed such a nice man before his brother 
told him to 'go seize the fame you justly deserve."   Fame corrupts; absolute 
fame corrupts absolutely.  

I have to go eat breakfast.  "Pt!"

But I love you all like brothers.  

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:36 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

This is why I found my annoyance hard to articulate.  I don’t think it is 
something about sensitivity.  I don’t have much affect one way or another about 
who is sexually interested in whom.  I find the system very interesting.  The 
thing that I think annoys me is that there is a kind of imaginationless 
boneheadedness that becomes common among academics as they go into their 
silverback phase, in which they take very crude models, and impose them on 
anything that can’t get away, whether the models belong or not.  It has the 
appearance of an all-destroying mental vanity at the cost of empiricism.

So, to be a bit more concrete:

If we are talking about viral lifecycles, where the main functions (and nearly 
the only ones) are: attach to cell surface, invade cell, use cellular machinery 
to produce proteins and a genome, maybe do some crossover with anyone else who 
might be in the same cell at the time, package it all into visions, escape and 
diffuse, generating some probability to repeat.

For that kind of model, the “replicator” in all its glorious minimality is a 
really great abstraction, and the notion of “Darwinian / Malthusian 
competition” among replicators with variant sequences is an abstraction that 
hews quite faithfully to much that is empirically real in the system.

But then, and here I want to be careful about a word you used and I didn’t, but 
should have been more specific about:

> On Jan 12, 2022, at 5:54 PM, glen  wrote:
> 
> But why would this "evolutionary explanation for X”

I wasn’t objecting in any way to evolutionary explanations.  It is a style of 
boneheaded selectionism that annoys me.  Evolution can be all of whatever 
really happens; if we have some imagination we should want to expand our 
appreciation of what-all that includes.  That’s where silverbacks often fall 
down.

All this, it will not surprise you to read, is related to my discontent this 
winter about the way genetics handles “information” that — however it should be 
defined, and on that I have opinions and constructions — depends on variations 
distributed across pangenomes that undergo lots of material dynamical 
shufflings, and later social and cultural constructs as well.  Where functional 
variation is quite localized to material variation, our abstractions and the 
habits we have built form them tend to do okay.  Where it is highly 
distributed, we often lack good abstractions at all, and through having few 
good tools and solved cases, people often haven’t developed much of a 
systematic intuition.

> be any more bizarre than any other question? That's what's interesting to me. 
> I don't see people claiming that asking about, say, a new virus variant is a 
> bizarre question to ask. Why does the subject of homosexuality evoke 
> accusations of "dumb" or "bizarre”?

So, the ad absurdum opposite to the viral replicator would be a feature 
somebody (Nick probably?) raised: sex is precisely _not_ heritable.  So to ask 
whether men or women are “fitter” in a Malthusian sense would clearly be a 
category error.

But that may not be quite the right thing to analogize to sexual orientation, 
because there are notions of he

Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

[thompnickson2]

You’re probably right. 

 

Perhaps bonobo sexuality is the primitive state.  

 

“Bub”

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 8:33 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

 

Nick,

No, no, no... you have the pedagogical point backwards... They are starting 
with some weird view that homosexuals are people who are absolutely exclusively 
sleeping with members of the same sex. You can't start from that and be like 
"Yeah, but once you're in the harem, there you are! Am I right!" Forget that 
fact that a huge number of gay men you and I know were at one point married and 
have kids, that's no the student's starting point (or at least it wasn't 20 
years ago). If you start with the harems, then they will knee jerk "That's not 
real homosexuality, that's not what I'm talking about."   To avoid that 
knee-jerk, you need to start by pointing out that even if their naive take on 
the phenomenon is correct, it still might not be that hard to explain 
evolutionarily. 

 

Once they are reminded that it's pretty easy math to have helpful-for-kin 
traits selected for, then you can offer the intermediary spandrel/exaptation 
option which gets them thinking that maybe there might be more to the 
discussion than they originally thought, and THEN you can point out that their 
initial premises might also just be complete garbage.  

 

Also, re Marcus's take: I think that would be a variation of the 
spandrel/exaptation explanation. Look, bub, it's pretty important to get 
natural selection going that people want to have sex. So you need a very 
reliable method of creating attraction, and you generally want it to be men 
attracted to women and women attracted to men. But the first part, the 
"attracted to someone" part is probably far more important than the "exactly 
who are you attracted to" part. As such, it's really not all that surprising to 
find men attracted to men and women attracted to women, and it's not clear that 
any special explanation beyond that is needed. 

 

 

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 3:32 PM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Eric, 

 

I think this an excellent capper to an excellent discussion.  I wish somebody 
would scrape it, perhaps edit to make it more readable, and file it somewhere 
amongst Friam’s Greatest Hits.  Somewhere, somebody should have reminded us 
that GenesFur X are really just genes that, in some devious say or other, make 
X more likely.   Is a genefur grooming a gene for maintaining group resistance 
to parasites, a gene for, building social relationships or both.  If you asked 
the gene, it would say, “I really don’t care.”  

 

Still, I might divide things up a bit differently.  

 

1.   Homosexuality benefits the homosexual. By hanging around the harem, 
ostensibly interested only in sex with the haremmor, he has unfettered access 
to the haremmees.  Given the high reproductive rate of haremmees, he only has 
to “slip up” a couple of times to be in good shape, reproductively.  This 
assumes that the haremmers have pretty much locked up the females in the group. 
   Game theorists call this the sneaky fucker strategy.  

2.   Group Selection Arguments: Group level adaptations could be triggered 
facultatively when infant and juvenile individuals receive cues that their 
particular  individual future reproductive environment is bleak.  

a.  Homosexuality benefits the Parents of the homosexual.  This is the 
kinselection argument laid out by Eric, with its group selection element made 
explicate.  Homosexuals assist in the reproduction of their siblings.  Here the 
group is the relatively efficient offspring- group of gene-bearing parents.  
b.  Homosexuality benefits the small group of which the homosexual’s family 
is part. Groups with one or more strongly bonded males are more productive of 
offspring than groups without.   Think Slime molds.  

I wasn’t sure that erics #3 isn’t so much an alternative as the cultural level 
description of the consequences of the others.  

 

N

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 12:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

 

Re potential evolutionary explanations for homosexuality: They really don't 
have to be very convoluted at all. 



I prepared a worksheet for a class 15 or so years ago, after a bunch of 
students starting trying use homosexuality as proof that evolution couldn't 
explain (any) behavior. I'd

Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

[thompnickson2]

Eric, 

 

I think this an excellent capper to an excellent discussion.  I wish somebody 
would scrape it, perhaps edit to make it more readable, and file it somewhere 
amongst Friam’s Greatest Hits.  Somewhere, somebody should have reminded us 
that GenesFur X are really just genes that, in some devious say or other, make 
X more likely.   Is a genefur grooming a gene for maintaining group resistance 
to parasites, a gene for, building social relationships or both.  If you asked 
the gene, it would say, “I really don’t care.”  

 

Still, I might divide things up a bit differently.  

 

1.   Homosexuality benefits the homosexual. By hanging around the harem, 
ostensibly interested only in sex with the haremmor, he has unfettered access 
to the haremmees.  Given the high reproductive rate of haremmees, he only has 
to “slip up” a couple of times to be in good shape, reproductively.  This 
assumes that the haremmers have pretty much locked up the females in the group. 
   Game theorists call this the sneaky fucker strategy.  

2.   Group Selection Arguments: Group level adaptations could be triggered 
facultatively when infant and juvenile individuals receive cues that their 
particular  individual future reproductive environment is bleak.  

a.  Homosexuality benefits the Parents of the homosexual.  This is the 
kinselection argument laid out by Eric, with its group selection element made 
explicate.  Homosexuals assist in the reproduction of their siblings.  Here the 
group is the relatively efficient offspring- group of gene-bearing parents.  
b.  Homosexuality benefits the small group of which the homosexual’s family 
is part. Groups with one or more strongly bonded males are more productive of 
offspring than groups without.   Think Slime molds.  

I wasn’t sure that erics #3 isn’t so much an alternative as the cultural level 
description of the consequences of the others.  

 

N

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 12:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

 

Re potential evolutionary explanations for homosexuality: They really don't 
have to be very convoluted at all. 



I prepared a worksheet for a class 15 or so years ago, after a bunch of 
students starting trying use homosexuality as proof that evolution couldn't 
explain (any) behavior. I'd rather just link to the blog... but to make things 
easier for other's, I'll also copy-paste below: Fixing Psychology: Evolution 
and Homosexuality 

 

 




Evolution and Homosexuality


Evolutionary theorists could potentially explain homosexuality using three 
distinct methods. The first two take the modern notion of homosexuality at face 
value, the third questions it.

1.Explain homosexuality as a benefit in and of itself.

The most straightforward way to explain the presence of any trait using 
evolutionary logic is to tell a story about how individuals with that trait 
reproduce their genes better than those without the trait. In the case of 
exclusive homosexuality, that is difficult, because homosexuals do not 
reproduce. However, it is still possible.

For example, a costly traits may be so helpful to your relatives (i.e., your 
kin) that it more than makes up for the cost you pay. This is called “kin 
selection”. Your children will share 50% of your genes, so we can give them a 
value of .5 in terms of your reproduction. A full sibling’s children share 25% 
of your genes, so we can give them a value of .25. That means that if you 
posses a trait that makes you have one less child on average (-.5), but you get 
three more nephews or nieces in exchange (+.75), natural selection will favor 
that trait (= .25). On average, the next generation will have more of your 
genes by virtue of your possessing a trait that makes you have fewer children. 
This explanation could be even more powerful when applied your own parents, 
i.e., helping raise your brothers and sisters, with whom you share as many 
genes as your own children (both .5).

If that was the explanation for human homosexuality, what might you also expect 
to be true of homosexuality?


2.Explain homosexuality as a byproduct of other adaptive mechanisms.

There are many types of explanations compatible with evolutionary theory, but 
that do not explain the traits under questions as adaptations in and of 
themselves. In one way or another, these explanations explain traits as the 
byproduct of some other adaptive process. The trait in question could be a 
necessary byproduct of two evolutionarily sound items; for example, an armpit 
appears when you combine a torso with an arm, but no animal was ever s

Re: [FRIAM] preprint aerosol covid

[thompnickson2]

I wonder how many of us are back in lockdown and aren’t telling each other?  

 

Or, how many of us think we should be in lock down, but aren’t.   This little 
voice keeps saying to me (you know, my “inner” voice) “Nick.  This omicron 
thing is going to be terrifying for the next six weeks and then be gone.  The 
hospitals are going to be jammed.  Not a time to risk any kind of medical 
emergency, let alone COVID.  Stay home.  Avoid icy pavements.  No sneaking off 
for coffee.”  

 

If Marcus is worrying about transmission in parks, maybe that time  has come. 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 11:03 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] preprint aerosol covid

 

Yesterday I was feeling nervous about being in the park.  It was super still 
but also high humidity.  Are people wearing masks outside?  This makes me think 
I should again?

 

Marcus

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > on 
behalf of glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 9:59 AM
To: friam@redfish.com   mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] preprint aerosol covid 

 

Yeah, I enjoyed the closed rooms at lockheed. But only the 60Hz ones. The 400Hz 
rooms were horrible. If the results check out, it spells trouble for me, 
though, hanging out in breweries ... which usually have higher than normal 
relative humidity. Stupid virus.

On 1/12/22 08:56, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> We have enough air purifiers to filter the air in the house six times an 
> hour.  It reminds me of the days when I had bitcoin miners running.
> The noise is like being in an airplane all the time.   I rather like fan 
> noise though.   I could sleep in a machine room.
> 
> Marcus
> --
> *From:* Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > 
> on behalf of glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> >
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 12, 2022 9:25 AM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com     >
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] preprint aerosol covid
> The Dynamics of SARS-CoV-2 Infectivity with Changes in Aerosol 
> Microenvironment
> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.08.22268944v1 
> 
>> Understanding the factors that influence the airborne survival of viruses 
>> such as SARS-CoV-2 in aerosols is important for identifying routes of 
>> transmission and the value of various mitigation strategies for preventing 
>> transmission. We present measurements  of the stability of SARS-CoV-2 in 
>> aerosol droplets (∼5-10µm equilibrated radius) over timescales spanning from 
>> 5 seconds to 20 minutes using a novel instrument to probe survival in a 
>> small population of droplets (typically 5-10) containing ∼1 virus/droplet. 
>> Measurements of airborne infectivity change are coupled with a detailed 
>> physicochemical analysis of the airborne droplets containing the virus. A 
>> decrease in infectivity to ∼10 % of the starting value was observable for 
>> SARS-CoV-2 over 20 minutes, with a large proportion of the loss occurring 
>> within the first 5 minutes after aerosolisation. The initial rate of 
>> infectivity loss was found to correlate with physical transformation of the 
>> equilibrating droplet; salts within the droplets crystallise at RHs below 
>> 50% leading to a near instant loss of infectivity in 50–60% of the virus. 
>> However, at 90% RH the droplet remains homogenous and aqueous, and the viral 
>> stability is sustained for the first 2 minutes, beyond which it 
> decays to only 10% remaining infectious after 10 minutes. The loss of 
> infectivity at high RH is consistent with an elevation in the pH of the 
> droplets, caused by volatilisation of CO2 from bicarbonate buffer within the 
> droplet. Three different v

Re: [FRIAM] preprint aerosol covid

[thompnickson2]

Ok, so.  I read the original thing.  It would seem to predict, wouldn't it, 
that dry climate transmission would be much lower than wet.  Put it round the 
other way:  these data would be  a plausible explanation for why the disease is 
less prevalent in dry climates.  But it isn't.  Am I reading it wrong?  

n

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 11:00 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] preprint aerosol covid

Yeah, I enjoyed the closed rooms at lockheed. But only the 60Hz ones. The 400Hz 
rooms were horrible. If the results check out, it spells trouble for me, 
though, hanging out in breweries ... which usually have higher than normal 
relative humidity. Stupid virus.

On 1/12/22 08:56, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> We have enough air purifiers to filter the air in the house six times an 
> hour.  It reminds me of the days when I had bitcoin miners running.
> The noise is like being in an airplane all the time.   I rather like fan 
> noise though.   I could sleep in a machine room.
> 
> Marcus
> --
> --
> --
> --
> --
> --
> --
> --
> --
> --
> --
> --
> --
> --
> --
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of glen 
> 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 12, 2022 9:25 AM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com 
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] preprint aerosol covid The Dynamics of SARS-CoV-2 
> Infectivity with Changes in Aerosol Microenvironment
> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.01.08.22268944v1 
> 
>> Understanding the factors that influence the airborne survival of 
>> viruses such as SARS-CoV-2 in aerosols is important for identifying 
>> routes of transmission and the value of various mitigation strategies 
>> for preventing transmission. We present measurements  of the 
>> stability of SARS-CoV-2 in aerosol droplets (∼5-10µm equilibrated 
>> radius) over timescales spanning from 5 seconds to 20 minutes using a 
>> novel instrument to probe survival in a small population of droplets 
>> (typically 5-10) containing ∼1 virus/droplet. Measurements of 
>> airborne infectivity change are coupled with a detailed 
>> physicochemical analysis of the airborne droplets containing the 
>> virus. A decrease in infectivity to ∼10 % of the starting value was 
>> observable for SARS-CoV-2 over 20 minutes, with a large proportion of 
>> the loss occurring within the first 5 minutes after aerosolisation. 
>> The initial rate of infectivity loss was found to correlate with 
>> physical transformation of the equilibrating droplet; salts within 
>> the droplets crystallise at RHs below 50% leading to a near instant 
>> loss of infectivity in 50–60% of the virus. However, at 90% RH the 
>> droplet remains homogenous and aqueous, and the viral stability is 
>> sustained for the first 2 minutes, beyond which it
> decays to only 10% remaining infectious after 10 minutes. The loss of 
> infectivity at high RH is consistent with an elevation in the pH of the 
> droplets, caused by volatilisation of CO2 from bicarbonate buffer within the 
> droplet. Three different variants of SARS-CoV-2 were compared and found to 
> have a similar degree of airborne stability at both high and low RH.

--
glen
Theorem 3. There exists a double master function.

.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe 
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/



.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.bl

Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

[thompnickson2]

One can only cash in on a short when one buys it back, right?

 

 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2022 5:51 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

So it went down over 20% today.  Should have shorted it.  A lot of my stocks 
have gone up 30% more or less in the last year--like AAPL.  I wonder if I 
should sell them short or just sell them.  Advice?

 

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:42 PM Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

Here's a stock that could be shorted, but golly it is doing well right now.

 

https://www.reit.com/investing/reit-directory/rexford-industrial-realty-inc

 

So, one imagines that an 1862-scale flood comes to LA due to some enormous 
atmospheric river, and then it finally pays.   

Ideally there'd be some inverse real estate ETF that was regional, e,g. Abu 
Dhabi, where one expects it to get bad.

 

Marcus

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > on 
behalf of David Eric Smith mailto:desm...@santafe.edu> >
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 4:14 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!?? 

 

This is an interesting direction. 

 

How small a minority does one have to be in, for it to count as an arbitrage 
opportunity?  In the El Farol and Minority Game abstractions, any minority is 
enough.

 

If we think about the dichotomy in public health, or in reason vs. hormonal 
aggression, the split in the US (at least by political commitments) is not so 
far from 50/50.  But as far as “profiting from the committed wrong”, that 
market seems to be cornered already by a very tiny percent, who have priced in 
much of the available surplus.  The difference between the dupes and the honest 
but powerless seems unimportant compared to the difference between both of 
those and the insiders with power, access, and control.  Somehow these richly 
structured extensive-form games with coalitional solution concepts seem very 
far from the market model in which we often think about arbitrage.

 

I am also reminded of the aphorism in that other realm “The market can stay 
irrational longer than you can stay solvent.”  Or in the case of climate, 
agricultural, and social instability, alive.

 

I wonder what makes an adequate toolbox of concepts and analogies with which to 
think about this (at least somewhat) systematically.

 

Eric

 





On Jan 2, 2022, at 2:58 PM, Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

 

Nick writes:

 

< So, what does a healthy 2040 community look like.   What are we working 
TOWARD, here.  Once of the things that the Mcnamee podcast highlighted for me 
was my feeling that, in a chaotic world, people like me, planners, are just out 
of tune with the world. >

 

I don't think it really matters how people interact in social media or what 
they think.   What will matter is how people adapt to climate change and the 
exhaustion of food and energy, and the migrations resulting from climate 
change.  That's where the opportunities will be.   If there are millions of 
people that deny it is happening like they deny pandemics, then things simply 
must be arranged so that the natural accounting occurs.   The planners will 
look past the chaos and make their investments.. and wait.

 

Marcus

  _  

From: Friam <  friam-boun...@redfish.com> on 
behalf of   thompnicks...@gmail.com < 
 thompnicks...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 1:32 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < 
 friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!?? 

 

So, what does a healthy 2040 community look like.   What are we working TOWARD, 
here.  Once of the things that the Mcnamee podcast highlighted for me was my 
feeling that, in a chaotic world, people like me, planners, are just out of 
tune with the world.  

 

By the way, I think “surfing the web” , as it has been used, is a terrible 
metaphor.  What most of us do is like water skiing the web.  Bouncing over the 
wake, never actually getting into the water.   Gives surfing a bad name.  A 
surfer finds the few survivable paths through an immense concentration of 
hostile forces.  Surfing is more like martial arts.  In fact we must begin to 
surf the web.   To realize the manners in which its hostile forces constrain us 
and find the few paths that allow us to master those forces and come out of the 
curl safely.  We thought it was a playground; now we see it’s a minefield. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

 

[FRIAM] And who says meteorologists aren't poets

[thompnickson2]

>From the morning forecast for Eastern Massachusetts: 

 

The bigger threat to our region will be from freezing rain.
Ground temperatures will remain sufficiently cold. Most model
soundings depict an impressive warm nose arriving just below
850 mb   in the next few
hours. Even the high-resolution rapid
update guidance is bullish on this warm nose intrusion. Will
definitely need to monitor the progress of this warm nose.
Thinking that most areas eventually turn to all rain heading
into this afternoon. The changeover time from snow and sleet to
rain and freezing rain will be crucial for determining how much
icing   we get.

 

Attention, Roger!  Beware that Warm Nose Intrusion.  Don't let that Bull's
Warm Nose get under your shrink-wrapped tent.  

 

Gawd how I love this stuff.

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

[thompnickson2]

Well, first things first.  Is there any evidence for a genetic basis for 
homosexuality.   You can, of course, have a trait that it is chromosomally 
determined (if not genetically so) and still not heritable.  Sex, for instance. 
 Sex is not heritable.  

 

My assumption has always been that homosexuality might be influence by innate 
factors, but not be heritable.  

 

I haven’t read up on that subject for 2 decades.  

 

Anybody know any facts? 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, January 8, 2022 5:57 PM
To: FriAM 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality

 

It seems like such a dumb question to ask.   Why should any preference have a 
genetic basis?   How about look for a gene that encodes a preference for plush 
carpeting or a preference for Flamenco music?   And what about those men that 
like short women?!   Maybe a man is kind of like a tall woman, on average?   
And why would anyone expect that it would be bimodal?  If it were what would 
that tell us?   One could imagine homosexuality is just one manifestation of 
cognitive or emotional flexibility.  That by itself would explain why it is 
enduring, because those properties would give a person an advantage over less 
flexible people.  Some fraction of the people with that property have 
heterosexual or bisexual relationships, and they reproduce and raise children 
that thrive.   The rigid (heterosexual) types in comparison are prone to making 
the same kind of mistakes over and over and their children suffer for it.

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > on 
behalf of ⛧ glen mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Saturday, January 8, 2022 4:13 PM
To: FriAM mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: [FRIAM] gene complex for homosexuality 

 

I'm in an ongoing argument with a gay friend about how tortured Darwinian 
arguments are in accounting for homosexuality. He claims they're VERY 
torturous. I'm inclined toward the first mentioned here: 
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26089486

But, were group selection and/or cultural evolution a thing, then my friend 
would be more right. Anyone here have a strong opinion?

-- 
glen ⛧


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] Octogenarian Omnicron

[thompnickson2]

Anybody,

 

Has you seen anywhere the number, Prob Omnicron|vaccinated+boosted or Prob 
[Omnicron + Hospitalization] | vaccinated+boosted ?  

 

Bayesian or otherwise?

 

I have seen the number Prob Omnicron| unboosted = 25x Prob Omnicron|Boosted.   
But I have no idea of its provenance.   

N

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Frank Wimberly  
Sent: Saturday, January 8, 2022 12:00 PM
To: Nicholas Thompson 
Subject: Re: Film

 

Multiple people have said that everyone will get infected but that we vaxed and 
boosted folks will have mild cases and that some might not know they had it.  
Even among octos.

 

My slogan is "stay home as much as possible."  One of our tennis group who is 
87 just left on a trip to Key West and Cancun.  He ignored my advice but at the 
last minute changed his second destination to Miami instead of Mexico.  He did 
it because of the quarantine requirement rather than fear of Covid.  I hear 
that Florida is exploding with cases.

 

Frank

 

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

On Sat, Jan 8, 2022, 9:48 AM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi, Frank,

 

Well, we watch films on my computer, balanced on a pillow, itself balanced on 
Penny’s Left and my Right knee.  We are working through Rake (Amazon), bawdy, 
funny, painful, very well done, and the Beatles thing (Disney) , Get Back, both 
chaotic and serene, in some way, so we don’t have NetFlix right now.  But as 
soon as those are done, we will turn to you movie. 

 

I have done nothing more on Sober.  Have been wringing my hands about Omicron.  
Seems like perhaps we octogenarians should perhaps locking down so as to delay 
our inevitable infection till after the peak.  

 

I spent about an hour this morning trying to come up with the breakthrough rate 
for we triple boosted folk.  The only statistic I could come up with was that 
boosting increased ones resistance to infection by 25x.  I don’t know how they 
could know that without knowing what I want to know, but they ain’t saying.  I 
am wondering if Penny and I should go into lockdown to delay the inevitable to 
after the hospitalization peak.  

 

Any thoughts? 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: Saturday, January 8, 2022 8:02 AM
To: Nicholas Thompson mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> 
>
Subject: Fwd: Film

 

This is relevant to our discussion of are our sources of truth more reliable 
than "theirs".  You really should see it.  It's on Netflix.  

 

Why don't you get a small flat screen TV for watching Rachel and movies.  You 
wouldn't have to get TV service.  You just plug it into your computer.

 

Frank

 

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

 

-- Forwarded message -
From: Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> >
Date: Fri, Jan 7, 2022, 8:40 PM
Subject: Film
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >

 

The film "Don't Look Up" came up in this morning's meeting.  We saw it this 
evening. I now see it was mentioned.  It's outstanding in my opinion. 

 

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, 
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] AARGH

[thompnickson2]

Trying to use cloud service, any cloud service, to send folder containing
large medical files.  They all seem to refuse to make links to FOLDERS,
demanding rather that I link the files individually.  So  every slice of the
scan is a file.  Sorry to bother you with this crap but does anybody have an
answer?  

 

N

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux?

[thompnickson2]

Glen,

As you-sual you hit the nail on several of its heads.  It's quite easy to 
represent inheritance as co-variance among the generations.  In fact, absent 
all the blather about genes and alleles and loci, etc., that's what inheritance 
IS.  

The crucial issue in groupselection (as it is with any selection) is the 
maintenance of sufficient variance between groups to keep it going.   Kin 
selection  IS group selection.  Its charm is that it has a mechanism built in 
for maintaining variance between [kin] groups.  

n

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 11:01 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux?



But I suppose it makes some sense to eliminate the concept of inheritance and 
focus on variation. Inheritance assumes a discreteness in traits that variation 
doesn't. And in this way, we might track the ontogeny (intra-generational 
variation) of units of selection similarly to tracking inter-generational 
variation.

But this would require a rigorous similarity measure. In "space", as 2 units 
evolve over time, we need some concept of how [dis]similar they become. In 
time, as a unit evolves, does it wander, or cycle, or [con|di]verge? It seems 
to me that *how* that similarity measure is constructed becomes the difference 
between kin vs group selection. Differences measured off organisms (blue eyes 
and hyena penises) would preference organisms as the unit. Differences measured 
off groups (altruism and religion) would preference groups. Only a mix of both 
organism and group differences could construct an agnostic similarity measure.



We had such a conversation last night in the context of adversarial exploration 
strategies. E.g. when 2 opponents in a game like, say, traditional boxing, 
trashtalk each other, that ad hominem serves the functional purpose of 
polarizing them and increasing their ability to find the corner cases in the 
space circumscribed by the boxing game. But as well-defined as that game is, 
there are still "parasitic" behaviors that identify some players as acting in 
bad faith. Those "parasitic" behaviors are thought (normatively) to NOT target 
a better collective understanding of the space circumscribed by the explicit 
rules. If we expand beyond the particular game to related games like wrestling 
and kick-boxing, or to define a broader game like MMA, we rely even more on our 
ability to identify, informally, bad faith actors. We could construct a similar 
story for fintech (e.g. 2008 crash), eusocial insects, or (I'm guessing) any 
other potential grouping. Unless we measure variables from across a large 
spectrum of granularity, we won't be able to tell what variation correlates 
with what potential unit of selection.

Even if group selection can be shown to be mathematically isomorphic to kin 
selection, and there's a theoretically sound but computationally infeasible way 
to model cross-grain evolution from either perspective, it'll still be 
*convenient* to model and explain it at higher levels ... in the same way that 
it's convenient to explain, say, Swing music without resorting to quantum 
mechanics.

And on that note, since I know we have a few Ψ enthusiasts here:

Psychedelics alter metaphysical beliefs
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-01209-2


On 1/4/22 15:42, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> If memory serves methylation can prevent the expression of a gene for a 
> generation or so because of some experience the gene endures, like being in  
> a male or a female, for instance.  Lamarckism, is the principle that animal 
> can, by striving to achieve a goal, increase the likelihood that “factors” 
> advancing those goals will appear in its offspring.  Both involve an effect 
> upon what is inherited by experience, but I think their structure is quite 
> different.  But it’s been a while.
> 
> n
> 
> Nick Thompson
> 
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> 
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> 
> 
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Marcus 
> Daniels
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 4, 2022 5:29 PM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
> 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux?
> 
> Isn't Lamarckism alive and well with the existence of DNA methylation?   
> Finding a way to thread the needle to get altruism and so forth out of 
> genetic inheritance seems rather academic?
> 
> --
> --
> --
> --
> --
> --

Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux?

[thompnickson2]

If memory serves methylation can prevent the expression of a gene for a
generation or so because of some experience the gene endures, like being in
a male or a female, for instance.  Lamarckism, is the principle that animal
can, by striving to achieve a goal, increase the likelihood that "factors"
advancing those goals will appear in its offspring.  Both involve an effect
upon what is inherited by experience, but I think their structure is quite
different.  But it's been a while.  

 

n 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Tuesday, January 4, 2022 5:29 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux?

 

Isn't Lamarckism alive and well with the existence of DNA methylation?
Finding a way to thread the needle to get altruism and so forth out of
genetic inheritance seems rather academic?

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
on behalf of thompnicks...@gmail.com 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, January 4, 2022 3:27 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux? 

 

J.

 

You don't address the point that Wilsons trait-group selection mechanism is
actually an INHERITANCE mechanism.  Is that because you don' get it, or
because you don't like it and are being polite.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Tuesday, January 4, 2022 3:59 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux?

 

:-) D.S. Wilson is one of the few who is on the right path. What he gets
right is that social groups can sometimes be treated as adaptive units whose
organization cannot be reduced to individuals or individual interactions
[1]. This is what he emphasizes in his articles about group selection and in
his book "Darwin's Cathedral" [2].


The question is what is selected? In natural selection a genotype is
selected if the phenotype has high fitness and lots of offspring. For
individual animals it is clear. For groups we can argue that successful
groups are selected if their phenotype has high fitness and attracts lots 
of new members. This naturally leads to the question "what is the genotype
and the phenotype for groups" ?

The phenotype is apparently the group character which is characterized by
group traits as you mentioned. The group traits are in turn created by the
common rules of the group, which can be commandments or norms or laws. The
only thing that I miss in Wilson's work is that these rules are identified
as what they are (as the genes that can create a group if they are expressed
and applied regularly). 

 

If we define and identify the genotype and the phenotype correctly, then we
can really shift the metaphor of the selfish gene and the metaphor of
natural selection to the group level, as the title of your paper says. 

[1] David Sloan Wilson, Elliott Sober, "Reintroducing group selection to the
human behavioral sciences". Behavioral and Brain Sciences 17 (4) (1994)
585-654


[2] David Sloan Wilson, "Darwin's Cathedral: Evolution, Religion, and the
Nature of Society", University of Chicago Press, 2002

 

-J.

 

 

 Original message 

From: thompnicks...@gmail.com   

Date: 1/4/22 01:26 (GMT+01:00) 

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> > 

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux? 

 

Dear Jochen, 

 

Thank you so much  for your comments.  So nice to know that I am not the
only person to have spent the last decade pounding on the locked conceptual
doors of our profession's minds. 

 

Two quick responses: 

 

Wilson is very much on my mind as I talk about things.  I think part of why
Wilson didn't get as much traction as he should have is that he failed to
understand that his "trait-group" selection mechanism was not a selection
mechanism but an inheritance mechanism.  My claim, here, is that if he had
said that group traits can be selected for and have played an enormous role
in the evolution of species when they are endorsed by the inheritance of
individual traits of differentiability.  

 

Second, I regret that Wilson and Richerson and Boyd all went for the
cultural variance enhancement hypothesis because I think that hypothesis
begs the question how group selection so clearly works again and again to
create levels of organization in biological systems.   It amounts,
therefore, to another special creation hypothesis with respect to humans.
Af

Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux?

[thompnickson2]

J.

 

You don’t address the point that Wilsons trait-group selection mechanism is 
actually an INHERITANCE mechanism.  Is that because you don’ get it, or because 
you don’t like it and are being polite.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Tuesday, January 4, 2022 3:59 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux?

 

:-) D.S. Wilson is one of the few who is on the right path. What he gets right 
is that social groups can sometimes be treated as adaptive units whose 
organization cannot be reduced to individuals or individual interactions [1]. 
This is what he emphasizes in his articles about group selection and in his 
book "Darwin's Cathedral" [2].


The question is what is selected? In natural selection a genotype is selected 
if the phenotype has high fitness and lots of offspring. For individual animals 
it is clear. For groups we can argue that successful groups are selected if 
their phenotype has high fitness and attracts lots 
of new members. This naturally leads to the question "what is the genotype and 
the phenotype for groups" ?

The phenotype is apparently the group character which is characterized by group 
traits as you mentioned. The group traits are in turn created by the common 
rules of the group, which can be commandments or norms or laws. The only thing 
that I miss in Wilson's work is that these rules are identified as what they 
are (as the genes that can create a group if they are expressed and applied 
regularly). 

 

If we define and identify the genotype and the phenotype correctly, then we can 
really shift the metaphor of the selfish gene and the metaphor of natural 
selection to the group level, as the title of your paper says. 

[1] David Sloan Wilson, Elliott Sober, "Reintroducing group selection to the 
human behavioral sciences". Behavioral and Brain Sciences 17 (4) (1994) 585–654


[2] David Sloan Wilson, "Darwin's Cathedral: Evolution, Religion, and the 
Nature of Society", University of Chicago Press, 2002

 

-J.

 

 

 Original message 

From: thompnicks...@gmail.com   

Date: 1/4/22 01:26 (GMT+01:00) 

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> > 

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux? 

 

Dear Jochen, 

 

Thank you so much  for your comments.  So nice to know that I am not the only 
person to have spent the last decade pounding on the locked conceptual doors of 
our profession’s minds. 

 

Two quick responses: 

 

Wilson is very much on my mind as I talk about things.  I think part of why 
Wilson didn’t get as much traction as he should have is that he failed to 
understand that his “trait-group” selection mechanism was not a selection 
mechanism but an inheritance mechanism.  My claim, here, is that if he had  
said that group traits can be selected for and have played an enormous role in 
the evolution of species when they are endorsed by the inheritance of 
individual traits of differentiability.  

 

Second, I regret that Wilson and Richerson and Boyd all went for the cultural 
variance enhancement hypothesis because I think that hypothesis begs the 
question how group selection so clearly works again and again to create levels 
of organization in biological systems.   It amounts, therefore, to another 
special creation hypothesis with respect to humans.   After thousands of years 
of thinking of humans as some sort of special case, I am ready to stop doing 
that for a while.  

 

I am sorry to hear about your PhD experience.  Give me their addresses and I 
will have them killed.  

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 5:08 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux?

 

"how do we get a group emergent property out of the aggregation of individual 
properties"

It is indeed an interesting question. I have tried two times to get a PhD, 
first in physics and then in computer science. Both times the professors 
cancelled the collaboration after one or two years and argued I had failed and 
accomplished nothing. This was one of the questions I tried to solve. As you 
know it is related to all the SFI topics of emergence, self-organization, 
evolution and group selection.

 

Group selection can be really complex. David Sloan Wilson is an expert in this 
topic who already published in 1975 a PNAS article about it... 
https://www.pnas.org/content/72/1/143

...but even 40 years later the idea is still controv

Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

[thompnickson2]

How 'bout methane?  The benefit of that would be that you could drop a match
in after.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 4:34 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

Nick writes:

 

< This may be just more of my quaint Deweyan blather, here, but it feels
like you are giving up the initiative.  You have the chance, here, to take
some teensy well-meaning future-oriented action which will, complexity being
what it is and the world being complex, actually plunge us into nuclear war
and eliminate life from the earth forever.  >

 

I like the sound of that.  Still, I feel I should defect on the economic
principle of the thing.  And I don't want to persuade the neighbors that I
have the cool power system and they don't.   I want them to come to an
understanding themselves and insist their government act to make it so.
Also, if possible, I would like to pump all my CO2 into a sealed 10-mile
cube above Joe Manchin's house.

 

Marcus

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
on behalf of thompnicks...@gmail.com 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 3:23 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!?? 

 

Hi Marcus, 

 

This may be just more of my quaint Deweyan blather, here, but it feels like
you are giving up the initiative.  You have the chance, here, to take some
teensy well-meaning future-oriented action which will, complexity being what
it is and the world being complex, actually plunge us into nuclear war and
eliminate life from the earth forever.   As Descartes said, God gave Man the
power to choose, and because he can choose, he can sin.  Good thing he
didn't give that to Women.  

 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 2:44 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

Nick writes:

 

< So what do your present investments look like? >

 

I work at home, and like most people (during the pandemic) there's a point
at which you want some privacy and quiet space to do work.   So, I hang out
in the garage, which is fine most of the time here, except for right now.
It is the few months of the year where it is uncomfortably cold. 

 

I look at my PGE bill and ponder my options.  I can do nothing and be
annoyed with noise and distraction.   At about the same cost I can 2) build
an insulated ceiling in the garage and turn on heaters, or 3) not insulate
the garage and heat it.   If I heat with gas or propane, it will be a
relatively low cost.   If I use electricity, it won't be cheap.   To fix the
electricity problem, I'll need to slap down $40k or something to get the
Tesla Powerwalls + solar.   If I do that, I don't even need to insulate
since I'll have power to spare.   Ideally, I would do both 2 and 3. 

 

The problem is that I'm incentivized to do the lazy thing which is to get a
cheap gas heater.

They should be taxing the natural gas so much that I don't even consider it.

 

Marcus

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
on behalf of thompnicks...@gmail.com 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 2:00 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!?? 

 

So what do your present investments look like?

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 2:58 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

Nick writes:

 

< So, what does a healthy 2040 community look like.   What are we working
TOWARD, here.  Once of the things that the Mcnamee podcast highlighted for
me was my feeling that, in a chaotic world, people like me, planners, are
just out of tune with the world. >

 

I don't think it really matters how people interact in social media or what
they think.   What will matter is how people adapt to climate change and the
exhaustion of food and energy, and the migrations resulting from climate
change.  That's where the opportunities will be.   If there are millions of
people that deny it is happening like they deny pandemics, then things
simply must be arranged so that the natural

Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

[thompnickson2]

I keep being tempted by what I take to be the existentialist answer:  It is, 
after all, our fate as humans to make choices.  Descartes was right.  

 

I don’t know why I am tempted by it.  To see it written makes clear that it was 
outright stupid.  In a genuinely complex world, our best choices are Dionysian.

 

“While the band played ‘Nearer My God To Thee”…

“it was sad when the great ship went down.”  

N

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 1:10 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

Hi Nick,

 

I wasn’t denying, or indeed addressing, the premise of your question, but if I 
had addressed it, I would have affirmed that it is an important and also a 
difficult one.  I have a large bulk of thoughts about this, but it is a jumble 
of inputs and fragments and ideas by others that I repeat secondhand, and not 
systematic or insightful by me.  So on that one I continue to paddle around.  
Many of the positions that I entertain as potentially right are probably far 
more extreme than anything you would want to countenance.  I neither hunger for 
them nor fear them; they are just so many sigmas from the inertia in which the 
world has moved for my whole lifetime, that whether they are right or wrong is 
a matter of large importance.  That means taking a position on it is not 
something to bullshit about.  Unable to bullshit at least over the hard parts, 
I find myself with little I can say. 

 

I was just struck that, in what was sort of a drive-by by Marcus relative to 
your psychological question, he brought up a thing that he and I have both 
spent several years working on, but which it hadn’t crossed my mind to apply 
technically to the current schisms.  That made it interesting, and I wanted to 
flag it in passing, in case anyone had insightful things to say about it.

 

Best, 

 

Eric

 

 





On Jan 3, 2022, at 11:28 AM, mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Marcus and EricS, 

 

I am uncertain about the degree to which your answers deny the premise of my 
question: What does a healthy 2040 COMMUNITY look like.  Marcus seems committed 
to a naturalist morality, all natural selection is good, but I can’t believe 
that Eric is, given other things he has said in these pages.  The citation of 
the aphorism,

 

“The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.”  

 

…suggests a hankering to out think the market, to head off the future, not just 
to plan to profit form it, but perhaps I am inserting my own Silent Generation 
Deweyan hankering.  

 

It’s freezing effing cold in this room and I have to go to the sunny side of 
the house.  

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 

 https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 5:15 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

This is an interesting direction.

 

How small a minority does one have to be in, for it to count as an arbitrage 
opportunity?  In the El Farol and Minority Game abstractions, any minority is 
enough.

 

If we think about the dichotomy in public health, or in reason vs. hormonal 
aggression, the split in the US (at least by political commitments) is not so 
far from 50/50.  But as far as “profiting from the committed wrong”, that 
market seems to be cornered already by a very tiny percent, who have priced in 
much of the available surplus.  The difference between the dupes and the honest 
but powerless seems unimportant compared to the difference between both of 
those and the insiders with power, access, and control.  Somehow these richly 
structured extensive-form games with coalitional solution concepts seem very 
far from the market model in which we often think about arbitrage.

 

I am also reminded of the aphorism in that other realm “The market can stay 
irrational longer than you can stay solvent.”  Or in the case of climate, 
agricultural, and social instability, alive.

 

I wonder what makes an adequate toolbox of concepts and analogies with which to 
think about this (at least somewhat) systematically.

 

Eric

 






On Jan 2, 2022, at 2:58 PM, Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

 

Nick writes:

 

< So, what does a healthy 2040 community look like.   What are we working 
TOWARD, here.  Once of the things that the Mcnamee podcast highlighted 

Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux?

[thompnickson2]

Dear Jochen, 

 

Thank you so much  for your comments.  So nice to know that I am not the only 
person to have spent the last decade pounding on the locked conceptual doors of 
our profession’s minds. 

 

Two quick responses: 

 

Wilson is very much on my mind as I talk about things.  I think part of why 
Wilson didn’t get as much traction as he should have is that he failed to 
understand that his “trait-group” selection mechanism was not a selection 
mechanism but an inheritance mechanism.  My claim, here, is that if he had  
said that group traits can be selected for and have played an enormous role in 
the evolution of species when they are endorsed by the inheritance of 
individual traits of differentiability.  

 

Second, I regret that Wilson and Richerson and Boyd all went for the cultural 
variance enhancement hypothesis because I think that hypothesis begs the 
question how group selection so clearly works again and again to create levels 
of organization in biological systems.   It amounts, therefore, to another 
special creation hypothesis with respect to humans.   After thousands of years 
of thinking of humans as some sort of special case, I am ready to stop doing 
that for a while.  

 

I am sorry to hear about your PhD experience.  Give me their addresses and I 
will have them killed.  

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 5:08 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux?

 

"how do we get a group emergent property out of the aggregation of individual 
properties"

It is indeed an interesting question. I have tried two times to get a PhD, 
first in physics and then in computer science. Both times the professors 
cancelled the collaboration after one or two years and argued I had failed and 
accomplished nothing. This was one of the questions I tried to solve. As you 
know it is related to all the SFI topics of emergence, self-organization, 
evolution and group selection.

 

Group selection can be really complex. David Sloan Wilson is an expert in this 
topic who already published in 1975 a PNAS article about it... 
https://www.pnas.org/content/72/1/143

...but even 40 years later the idea is still controversial. I think it is 
because it is a complex phenomenon that happens during a transition of 
different evolutionary systems where multiple systems overlap, and both have an 
effect on the overall fitness
https://blog.oup.com/2015/01/kin-group-selection-controversy/

I believe it is a mistake to believe that stable properties of a complex group 
will emerge mysteriously from a few interactions or random fluctuations. 
Ephemeral interactions may lead to complex but unstable patterns (i.e. to 
short-lived group traits). They most likely will not lead to lasting structures 
unless they are recorded and stored somewhere.

A possible answer which I see for the question how a group property can emerge 
from individual properties in social systems is that a group agrees to follow 
common rules based on its history. Looking back on the shared history, the 
group will try to avoid the same mistakes in the future. Rules which prohibit a 
behavior are therefore often the result of events which were accidents or 
deliberate actions that had really bad consequences. 

A stop sign for example exists because there has been at least one accident at 
a similar place where a vehicle has not been stopped in time and another 
vehicle was hit. A do-not-steal rule exists because there has been at least one 
real property loss by theft, a do-not-murder rule exists because there has been 
at least one terrible loss of a life by a murder, etc. What is aggregated are 
rules to avoid events which are bad for the group. 

>From the countless ephemeral interactions of the group only those stand out 
>which have very good or very bad consequences for the group. They are 
>remembered and can become the foundation of basic moral rules if it becomes 
>clear in hindsight what is good and bad for the group. These cultural norms 
>can be encapsulated in myths, stories or fairy tales that can be passed from 
>generation to generation. When these rules are written down, it is possible to 
>reach an evolutionary transition to a new dimension
https://blog.cas-group.net/2020/07/the-fractal-dimension-of-group-selection/

 

Does this make sense? I believe the uncertainty what constitutes a group trait 
is not a problem of finding the right definition. It is part of the group 
creation, which can be an evolutionary transition process (from random 
interactions to verbally transmitted myths to written rules which define a 
successful ethnic or religious group and become the genes of a new evolutionary 
systen).

 

-J.

 

 

 Original message 

From

Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

[thompnickson2]

Hi Marcus, 

 

This may be just more of my quaint Deweyan blather, here, but it feels like
you are giving up the initiative.  You have the chance, here, to take some
teensy well-meaning future-oriented action which will, complexity being what
it is and the world being complex, actually plunge us into nuclear war and
eliminate life from the earth forever.   As Descartes said, God gave Man the
power to choose, and because he can choose, he can sin.  Good thing he
didn't give that to Women.  

 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 2:44 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

Nick writes:

 

< So what do your present investments look like? >

 

I work at home, and like most people (during the pandemic) there's a point
at which you want some privacy and quiet space to do work.   So, I hang out
in the garage, which is fine most of the time here, except for right now.
It is the few months of the year where it is uncomfortably cold. 

 

I look at my PGE bill and ponder my options.  I can do nothing and be
annoyed with noise and distraction.   At about the same cost I can 2) build
an insulated ceiling in the garage and turn on heaters, or 3) not insulate
the garage and heat it.   If I heat with gas or propane, it will be a
relatively low cost.   If I use electricity, it won't be cheap.   To fix the
electricity problem, I'll need to slap down $40k or something to get the
Tesla Powerwalls + solar.   If I do that, I don't even need to insulate
since I'll have power to spare.   Ideally, I would do both 2 and 3. 

 

The problem is that I'm incentivized to do the lazy thing which is to get a
cheap gas heater.

They should be taxing the natural gas so much that I don't even consider it.

 

Marcus

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
on behalf of thompnicks...@gmail.com 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 2:00 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!?? 

 

So what do your present investments look like?

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 2:58 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

Nick writes:

 

< So, what does a healthy 2040 community look like.   What are we working
TOWARD, here.  Once of the things that the Mcnamee podcast highlighted for
me was my feeling that, in a chaotic world, people like me, planners, are
just out of tune with the world. >

 

I don't think it really matters how people interact in social media or what
they think.   What will matter is how people adapt to climate change and the
exhaustion of food and energy, and the migrations resulting from climate
change.  That's where the opportunities will be.   If there are millions of
people that deny it is happening like they deny pandemics, then things
simply must be arranged so that the natural accounting occurs.   The
planners will look past the chaos and make their investments.. and wait.

 

Marcus

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
on behalf of thompnicks...@gmail.com 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 1:32 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!?? 

 

So, what does a healthy 2040 community look like.   What are we working
TOWARD, here.  Once of the things that the Mcnamee podcast highlighted for
me was my feeling that, in a chaotic world, people like me, planners, are
just out of tune with the world.  

 

By the way, I think "surfing the web" , as it has been used, is a terrible
metaphor.  What most of us do is like water skiing the web.  Bouncing over
the wake, never actually getting into the water.   Gives surfing a bad name.
A surfer finds the few survivable paths through an immense concentration of
hostile forces.  Surfing is more like martial arts.  In fact we must begin
to surf the web.   To realize the manners in which its hostile forces
constrain us and find the few paths that allow us to master those forces and
come out of the curl safely.  We thought it was a playground; now we see
it's a minefield.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 2:18 PM
To: T

Re: [FRIAM] Group Selection Redux?

[thompnickson2]

Colleagues, 

 

Look.  I get it.  You don’t want to read my whole frigging article.  Ok. So.  
Here for absolutely free, is the last bit which argues that flexible 
individuals (individuals that can learn and adapt) arise through selection on 
emergent group traits that are inherited from group to group through the 
proliferation and dissemination of adaptable elements at the next level down.  

 

 

Does This Formulation of Group Selection Exclude Trait-Group Selection?

 

I argued above that trait-group selection explanations be excluded 
consideration as group selection theories because they explain aggregate traits 
of groups. Given that trait-group selection theories are widely viewed as the 
most plausible group selection theories, surely they must play some role in a 
resolution of the group selection controversy. The role proposed for them here 
is as the mechanism of inheritance that connects selection for group traits in 
one generation with the occurrence of descendant groups with the same traits in 
the next generation. One problem for group selection theory has always been to 
explain how group properties are passed from generation to generation. The 
answer suggested by trait-group selection theory is that group-promoting traits 
are passed by the medium of individuals and that the more individuals with 
"group-promoting traits," the better organized and harmonious is the group, and 
the more offspring it has. As a genetic system, trait-group selection is the 
analogue of an individual­ level polygenic system in which the fitness of the 
individual is quantitatively related to the number of alleles of one kind in 
the set of loci relevant to the trait.

 

If trait-group selection is to play the role of a "genetic mechanism" in group 
selection theory, then it must be the case that, for instance, groups with more 
"group promoting" individuals (an aggregate trait) must be better organized and 
more harmonious (emergent traits). What sorts of individuals would be group

promoting in this way? What sort of elements which, when aggregated, would 
foster emergence of some group trait? The answer that comes to mind immediately 
is "flexible elements." A boat would be a poor competitor if it had all the 
best coxswains in the race or all the best stroke oarsmen; but a boat with all 
the most educable rowers in the race might be a very good competitor, since  
educable rowers could learn the skills appropriate to each position in the 
boat. Thus, the relationship between emergent traits as a selective force and  
trait-group  selection as an inheritance mechanism may account for why complex 
organizations in nature seem so often to be composed of generalist elements 
that become  specialized during development to serve different functions within 
the whole. Think of the body's cells, for instance, which all contain the same 
genetic information but come to serve very different functions during the 
course of development. Think of the neurons of the human cortex, which become 
structured and organized by position and by experience. Think of the workers in 
a beehive (Seeley, 1995).

 

Once group selection explanations are examined and specified in the way that 
this analysis suggests, their potential significance to evolutionary psychology 
immediately becomes clear. One of the problems of evolutionary psychology has 
been to explain why humans are such generalists. One explanation for human 
generality that has been proposed is the unpredictability of  the  human 
environment. Unpredictable environments have often thought to select for 
generalized responses because they prevent adaptations to local or temporary 
circumstances (Richerson & Boyd, in press).

 

The analysis of this paper suggests another reason why humans might be 
generalists-powerful group selection. Selection for aggregate properties at  
any level is impotent to select for functional differentiation. It can, 
however, select for differentiability. Thus, the undifferentiated brain tissue 
and generalized behavior potential that characterize human beings and that make 
human language  and culture a possibility may be a direct result of group 
selection (Boyd & Richerson, 1985; Boehm, 1997). The exact mechanism by which 
this selection would come about is a combination of group selection, which 
would assure that functionally integrated groups generate more offspring groups 
than their nonfunctionally integrated alternatives, and trait-group 
inheritance, which would assure that aggregations of differentiable individuals 
are available to form functionally integrated groups.

 

Conclusion

 

Ambiguities arising from the shifting of Darwin's metaphor to the group level 
have troubled the study of social evolution long enough. When the  shifted 
metaphor is specified as a theory about the evolution of emergent properties of 
groups through differential group productivity mediated by trait-group 
inheritance, these ambiguities di

[FRIAM] Group Selection Redux?

[thompnickson2]

Ok, I am still in the freezing cold room.  

 

Narcissist that I am, I want to explore the implications of my own insight – 
yes, it was mine, all mine, hooo-ahh-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaahl—that the key to group 
selection is emergent properties of groups based on quantitative inheritance 
between “generations” of groups.  So, how do we get a group emergent 
property out of the aggregation of individual properties.  Not many individual 
properties are suitable.  But one  is.  TRACTIBILITY.  We see this in the 
immune system, or in bee hives, or in brain cells, etc.  What nature selects 
for at the group level is functional organization but that is achieved at the 
lower level by selection for tractability.  So, the human ability to learn is 
foundational to our capacity for “altruism”.  And vice versa.   This is all 
laid out in the final pages of  Shifting the Natural Selection Metaphor to the 
Group Level 

 .  Published in the mid-oughts, you could be the first to read it.  Download 
it, and I will come to your house [masked, of course] and autograph it.   
C’mon.  What could be better than that?!  Hooo-ahh-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaahl

 

Ah.  The room temperature is up to 65 degrees.  Things are looking up. 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 5:15 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

This is an interesting direction.

 

How small a minority does one have to be in, for it to count as an arbitrage 
opportunity?  In the El Farol and Minority Game abstractions, any minority is 
enough.

 

If we think about the dichotomy in public health, or in reason vs. hormonal 
aggression, the split in the US (at least by political commitments) is not so 
far from 50/50.  But as far as “profiting from the committed wrong”, that 
market seems to be cornered already by a very tiny percent, who have priced in 
much of the available surplus.  The difference between the dupes and the honest 
but powerless seems unimportant compared to the difference between both of 
those and the insiders with power, access, and control.  Somehow these richly 
structured extensive-form games with coalitional solution concepts seem very 
far from the market model in which we often think about arbitrage.

 

I am also reminded of the aphorism in that other realm “The market can stay 
irrational longer than you can stay solvent.”  Or in the case of climate, 
agricultural, and social instability, alive.

 

I wonder what makes an adequate toolbox of concepts and analogies with which to 
think about this (at least somewhat) systematically.

 

Eric

 





On Jan 2, 2022, at 2:58 PM, Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

 

Nick writes:

 

< So, what does a healthy 2040 community look like.   What are we working 
TOWARD, here.  Once of the things that the Mcnamee podcast highlighted for me 
was my feeling that, in a chaotic world, people like me, planners, are just out 
of tune with the world. >

 

I don't think it really matters how people interact in social media or what 
they think.   What will matter is how people adapt to climate change and the 
exhaustion of food and energy, and the migrations resulting from climate 
change.  That's where the opportunities will be.   If there are millions of 
people that deny it is happening like they deny pandemics, then things simply 
must be arranged so that the natural accounting occurs.   The planners will 
look past the chaos and make their investments.. and wait.

 

Marcus

  _  

From: Friam <  friam-boun...@redfish.com> on 
behalf of   thompnicks...@gmail.com < 
 thompnicks...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 1:32 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < 
 friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

So, what does a healthy 2040 community look like.   What are we working TOWARD, 
here.  Once of the things that the Mcnamee podcast highlighted for me was my 
feeling that, in a chaotic world, people like me, planners, are just out of 
tune with the world.  

 

By the way, I think “surfing the web” , as it has been used, is a terrible 
metaphor.  What most of us do is like water skiing the web.  Bouncing over the 
wake, never actually getting into the water.   Gives surfing a bad name.  A 
surfer finds the few survivable paths through an immense concentration of 
hostile forces.  Surfing is more like martial arts.  In fact we must begin to 
surf the web.   To realize the manners in which its hostile forces constrain us 
and find the few paths that 

Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

[thompnickson2]

Marcus and EricS, 

 

I am uncertain about the degree to which your answers deny the premise of my 
question: What does a healthy 2040 COMMUNITY look like.  Marcus seems committed 
to a naturalist morality, all natural selection is good, but I can’t believe 
that Eric is, given other things he has said in these pages.  The citation of 
the aphorism,

 

“The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.”  

 

…suggests a hankering to out think the market, to head off the future, not just 
to plan to profit form it, but perhaps I am inserting my own Silent Generation 
Deweyan hankering.  

 

It’s freezing effing cold in this room and I have to go to the sunny side of 
the house.  

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, January 3, 2022 5:15 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

This is an interesting direction.

 

How small a minority does one have to be in, for it to count as an arbitrage 
opportunity?  In the El Farol and Minority Game abstractions, any minority is 
enough.

 

If we think about the dichotomy in public health, or in reason vs. hormonal 
aggression, the split in the US (at least by political commitments) is not so 
far from 50/50.  But as far as “profiting from the committed wrong”, that 
market seems to be cornered already by a very tiny percent, who have priced in 
much of the available surplus.  The difference between the dupes and the honest 
but powerless seems unimportant compared to the difference between both of 
those and the insiders with power, access, and control.  Somehow these richly 
structured extensive-form games with coalitional solution concepts seem very 
far from the market model in which we often think about arbitrage.

 

I am also reminded of the aphorism in that other realm “The market can stay 
irrational longer than you can stay solvent.”  Or in the case of climate, 
agricultural, and social instability, alive.

 

I wonder what makes an adequate toolbox of concepts and analogies with which to 
think about this (at least somewhat) systematically.

 

Eric

 





On Jan 2, 2022, at 2:58 PM, Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

 

Nick writes:

 

< So, what does a healthy 2040 community look like.   What are we working 
TOWARD, here.  Once of the things that the Mcnamee podcast highlighted for me 
was my feeling that, in a chaotic world, people like me, planners, are just out 
of tune with the world. >

 

I don't think it really matters how people interact in social media or what 
they think.   What will matter is how people adapt to climate change and the 
exhaustion of food and energy, and the migrations resulting from climate 
change.  That's where the opportunities will be.   If there are millions of 
people that deny it is happening like they deny pandemics, then things simply 
must be arranged so that the natural accounting occurs.   The planners will 
look past the chaos and make their investments.. and wait.

 

Marcus

  _  

From: Friam <  friam-boun...@redfish.com> on 
behalf of   thompnicks...@gmail.com < 
 thompnicks...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 1:32 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < 
 friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

So, what does a healthy 2040 community look like.   What are we working TOWARD, 
here.  Once of the things that the Mcnamee podcast highlighted for me was my 
feeling that, in a chaotic world, people like me, planners, are just out of 
tune with the world.  

 

By the way, I think “surfing the web” , as it has been used, is a terrible 
metaphor.  What most of us do is like water skiing the web.  Bouncing over the 
wake, never actually getting into the water.   Gives surfing a bad name.  A 
surfer finds the few survivable paths through an immense concentration of 
hostile forces.  Surfing is more like martial arts.  In fact we must begin to 
surf the web.   To realize the manners in which its hostile forces constrain us 
and find the few paths that allow us to master those forces and come out of the 
curl safely.  We thought it was a playground; now we see it’s a minefield. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 

 https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam <  friam-boun...@redfish.com> On 
Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 2:18 PM

Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

[thompnickson2]

So what do your present investments look like?

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 2:58 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

Nick writes:

 

< So, what does a healthy 2040 community look like.   What are we working
TOWARD, here.  Once of the things that the Mcnamee podcast highlighted for
me was my feeling that, in a chaotic world, people like me, planners, are
just out of tune with the world. >

 

I don't think it really matters how people interact in social media or what
they think.   What will matter is how people adapt to climate change and the
exhaustion of food and energy, and the migrations resulting from climate
change.  That's where the opportunities will be.   If there are millions of
people that deny it is happening like they deny pandemics, then things
simply must be arranged so that the natural accounting occurs.   The
planners will look past the chaos and make their investments.. and wait.

 

Marcus

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
on behalf of thompnicks...@gmail.com 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 1:32 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!?? 

 

So, what does a healthy 2040 community look like.   What are we working
TOWARD, here.  Once of the things that the Mcnamee podcast highlighted for
me was my feeling that, in a chaotic world, people like me, planners, are
just out of tune with the world.  

 

By the way, I think "surfing the web" , as it has been used, is a terrible
metaphor.  What most of us do is like water skiing the web.  Bouncing over
the wake, never actually getting into the water.   Gives surfing a bad name.
A surfer finds the few survivable paths through an immense concentration of
hostile forces.  Surfing is more like martial arts.  In fact we must begin
to surf the web.   To realize the manners in which its hostile forces
constrain us and find the few paths that allow us to master those forces and
come out of the curl safely.  We thought it was a playground; now we see
it's a minefield.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 2:18 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

Nick writes:

 

< Imagined a world in which we all worked at home, everything was on zoom,
and everything was delivered by Amazon by drone.  I realize this is a
reductio, but hum along with me for a few bars.  There would be no
intermediate social landscape between the home and the distribution center.
No intermediate human scales.  

 

I can't say immediately why this would be a bad thing, but my gut doesn't
like it.>

 

I can't think of many examples where the intermediate scales are anything
but wasteful or intrusive.   Maybe to see a tailor coupled to the purchase
of certain clothes?  I still drive to services (dentist, doctor, hair
stylist), just not to redistributors, because they don't really add
anything.   There's still a farmer's market that seems as popular as ever --
but they DO offer something unique.I can drive five minutes to Home
Depot but honestly half the time their inventory is exhausted for what I
want, and I end up ordering it online.

 

Marcus  

 

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
on behalf of thompnicks...@gmail.com 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 1:03 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!?? 

 

Marcus, 

 

I would like to be convinced .. But

 

Imagined a world in which we all worked at home, everything was on zoom, and
everything was delivered by Amazon by drone.  I realize this is a reductio,
but hum along with me for a few bars.  There would be no intermediate social
landscape between the home and the distribution center.  No intermediate
human scales.  

 

I can't say immediately why this would be a bad thing, but my gut doesn't
like it. 

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 1:38 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

I can see living without Facebook (I do), but why ca

Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

[thompnickson2]

So, what does a healthy 2040 community look like.   What are we working
TOWARD, here.  Once of the things that the Mcnamee podcast highlighted for
me was my feeling that, in a chaotic world, people like me, planners, are
just out of tune with the world.  

 

By the way, I think "surfing the web" , as it has been used, is a terrible
metaphor.  What most of us do is like water skiing the web.  Bouncing over
the wake, never actually getting into the water.   Gives surfing a bad name.
A surfer finds the few survivable paths through an immense concentration of
hostile forces.  Surfing is more like martial arts.  In fact we must begin
to surf the web.   To realize the manners in which its hostile forces
constrain us and find the few paths that allow us to master those forces and
come out of the curl safely.  We thought it was a playground; now we see
it's a minefield.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 2:18 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

Nick writes:

 

< Imagined a world in which we all worked at home, everything was on zoom,
and everything was delivered by Amazon by drone.  I realize this is a
reductio, but hum along with me for a few bars.  There would be no
intermediate social landscape between the home and the distribution center.
No intermediate human scales.  

 

I can't say immediately why this would be a bad thing, but my gut doesn't
like it.>

 

I can't think of many examples where the intermediate scales are anything
but wasteful or intrusive.   Maybe to see a tailor coupled to the purchase
of certain clothes?  I still drive to services (dentist, doctor, hair
stylist), just not to redistributors, because they don't really add
anything.   There's still a farmer's market that seems as popular as ever --
but they DO offer something unique.I can drive five minutes to Home
Depot but honestly half the time their inventory is exhausted for what I
want, and I end up ordering it online.

 

Marcus  

 

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
on behalf of thompnicks...@gmail.com 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 1:03 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!?? 

 

Marcus, 

 

I would like to be convinced .. But

 

Imagined a world in which we all worked at home, everything was on zoom, and
everything was delivered by Amazon by drone.  I realize this is a reductio,
but hum along with me for a few bars.  There would be no intermediate social
landscape between the home and the distribution center.  No intermediate
human scales.  

 

I can't say immediately why this would be a bad thing, but my gut doesn't
like it. 

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 1:38 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

I can see living without Facebook (I do), but why can't we live with Amazon?
It seems like they did a pretty good job of displacing the likes of Walmart.
It could happen again.  What added inherent value do stores have, other than
as a mechanism to prevent he consolidation of market influence w.r.t. to
prices?

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
on behalf of thompnicks...@gmail.com 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 12:03 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!?? 

 

I just listened to this podcast 

 

https://feeds.megaphone.fm/VMP5489734702

 

a conversation between the former prosecutor, Joyce Vance, and the musician,
financier, turncoat Facebook investor Roger Mcnamee, who likens this moment
with big tech to the moment before the food industry regulations of the
early 1900's and anti-pollution legislation of the 60's, moments when Da
People reasserted control over over-weening industry interests.  He is
author of the book, Zucked.

 

An hour-long pod cast is a terribly inefficient way to learn about
something, so I hope that one you, for whom none of this is news, can offer
a more condensed source.

 

We are basically talking about the Amazon paradox, here: can't live with it;
can't live without it.  How much ARE we willing to pay to have the trains
run on time?

 

As usual, I am in need of instruction.  

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku

Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

[thompnickson2]

Marcus, 

 

I would like to be convinced .. But

 

Imagined a world in which we all worked at home, everything was on zoom, and
everything was delivered by Amazon by drone.  I realize this is a reductio,
but hum along with me for a few bars.  There would be no intermediate social
landscape between the home and the distribution center.  No intermediate
human scales.  

 

I can't say immediately why this would be a bad thing, but my gut doesn't
like it. 

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 1:38 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

 

I can see living without Facebook (I do), but why can't we live with Amazon?
It seems like they did a pretty good job of displacing the likes of Walmart.
It could happen again.  What added inherent value do stores have, other than
as a mechanism to prevent he consolidation of market influence w.r.t. to
prices?

  _  

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> >
on behalf of thompnicks...@gmail.com 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> >
Sent: Sunday, January 2, 2022 12:03 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!?? 

 

I just listened to this podcast 

 

https://feeds.megaphone.fm/VMP5489734702

 

a conversation between the former prosecutor, Joyce Vance, and the musician,
financier, turncoat Facebook investor Roger Mcnamee, who likens this moment
with big tech to the moment before the food industry regulations of the
early 1900's and anti-pollution legislation of the 60's, moments when Da
People reasserted control over over-weening industry interests.  He is
author of the book, Zucked.

 

An hour-long pod cast is a terribly inefficient way to learn about
something, so I hope that one you, for whom none of this is news, can offer
a more condensed source.

 

We are basically talking about the Amazon paradox, here: can't live with it;
can't live without it.  How much ARE we willing to pay to have the trains
run on time?

 

As usual, I am in need of instruction.  

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

[FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

[thompnickson2]

I just listened to this podcast 

 

https://feeds.megaphone.fm/VMP5489734702

 

a conversation between the former prosecutor, Joyce Vance, and the musician,
financier, turncoat Facebook investor Roger Mcnamee, who likens this moment
with big tech to the moment before the food industry regulations of the
early 1900's and anti-pollution legislation of the 60's, moments when Da
People reasserted control over over-weening industry interests.  He is
author of the book, Zucked.

 

An hour-long pod cast is a terribly inefficient way to learn about
something, so I hope that one you, for whom none of this is news, can offer
a more condensed source.

 

We are basically talking about the Amazon paradox, here: can't live with it;
can't live without it.  How much ARE we willing to pay to have the trains
run on time?

 

As usual, I am in need of instruction.  

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] more modal realism

[thompnickson2]

Glen, 

 

Forgive me for larding but it is the best way for me when I have a yet a little 
to say back to somebody who has had a lot to say a lot. 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2021 11:31 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] more modal realism

 

 

  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds

 

We see something like this in evolutionary justifications of various phenotypic 
traits, the most egregious being evolutionary psychology, but including Nick's 
hyena penis and the ontological status of epiphenomena. Yes, I'm posting this 
in part because of EricC's kindasorta Voltaire-ish response to what might seem 
like my Leibnizian defense of bureaucracy. But I'm also hoping y'all could help 
with the question I ask later.

 

Of course, I'm more on Spinoza's (or Lewis') side, here, something closer to a 
commitment to the existence of all possible worlds. I'm in a running argument 
at our pub salon about the metaphysical question "Why is there something, 
rather than nothing?" My personal answer to that question, unsatisfying to the 
philosopher who asked it, is that this is either a nonsense question *or* it 
relies fundamentally on the ambiguity in the concepts of "something" and 
"nothing". Every denial of the other proposed answers (mostly cosmological) 
involves moving the goal posts or invoking persnickety metaphysical assumptions 
that weren't laid out when the question was asked. ... it's just a lot of 
hemming and hawing by those who want to remain committed to their own romantic 
nonsense.

[NST===>Ok, I don’t know whether my nonsense is romantic, but here it is.  
Experience is essentially random.  So, to answer the question, there is mostly 
nothing.  Indeed, experience seems often to repeat itself, but all random 
processes repeat themselves, and so are still nothing.  Every once in a while, 
however, such repetitions are so persistent as to beyond our capacity to shrug 
them off as random, and these experiences are somethings.  <===nst] 

 

But a better answer might be something like: Because the size of the set of 
possible worlds where there is something is *so much larger* than the size of 
the set of worlds where there is nothing. And one might even argue that all the 
possible worlds where there is nothing are degenerate, resulting in only 1 
possible world with nothing. [⛧]

 

I don't think this is a probabilistic argument. But I'm too ignorant to be 
confident in that. Can any of you argue one way or the other? Is this argument 
from size swamping probabilistic, combinatorial? Or can I take a Lewisian 
stance and assert that all the possible worlds do, already, exist and this is 
just a numbers thing?

[NST===>OPS!  My always-slippery grasp on the word “possible” has failed.  
What do we mean, in this context, by “possible”?<===nst] 

 

 

[⛧] This is not my own metaphysics, assuming that's stable, which is ... uh ... 
semi-monist (?) ... maybe pseudo-monist ... along the lines of an open-ended, 
increasing degrees of freedom universe ... whatever that might turn out to mean.

 

-- 

glen

Theorem 3. There exists a double master function.

 

 

.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam

un/subscribe   
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

FRIAM-COMIC   http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

archives:

5/2017 thru present   
https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/

1/2003 thru 6/2021    
http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/


.-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:
 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
 1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/