Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Fwd: You just went to the Google homepage. What actually happened?
Yes, most currently wooded population areas in the West were pretty much lumbered out for railroad ties, mine frames, and buildings during the 19th Century. Pictures of the Durango and Silverton area show the extent of that lumbering. A while back, the Corps of Engineers wanted to to do some work on the levee and bypass ditch that protects Corrales from Rio Grande flooding. They intended to use bull-dozers and other equipment, which caused a great outcry from the environmentally-inclined about how the work would destroy old-growth trees in the Corrales bosque. They were somewhat embarrassed when old-timers pointed out that those old-growth trees had replaced the trees wiped out by the big flood in 1941 - not old-growth at all. Of course, much of the concern came from folks who don't realize that cottonwoods rarely live beyond 50 years, anyway. Some forests never grow old. I wonder if one of the reasons that the juniper and piñon around Santa Fe have succumbed to bark beetle is because they are invasive species - certainly there was something else growing in the area worth lumbering that has been replaced by the trees which are not. It's a fascinating aspect of human nature that we assume that nature as we see it has been that way for eons. Ray Parks Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager V: 505-844-4024 M: 505-238-9359 P: 505-951-6084 NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder) JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder) On Mar 21, 2013, at 6:55 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote: Yeah, wood is great, except almost everywhere that depended on it ended up with none within wood gathering radius. The story is if you look at early photos of Santa Fe, the hills seem strangely denuded compared to the present. -- rec -- On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Parks, Raymond rcpa...@sandia.gov wrote: Steam engines work fine on wood - not as efficient but they worked with wood for years. Hydro-power has worked even better since ancient times. Charcoal comes from wood and can be made into coke. All that aside, I don't understand the comment we already have mined and spent all of easily available fossil fuels. That's stupid on several levels. Ray Parks Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager V: 505-844-4024 M: 505-238-9359 P: 505-951-6084 NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder) JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder) On Mar 21, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote: At the risk of hijacking the thread... I liked the comment on the ycombinator: PeterisP There exists a viewpoint that in case of a cataclysm (which would involve man-made objects disappearing*) we would never, ever progress past 18th century tech again. The argument is that getting from animal-powered devices to solar/nuclear/whatever powered devices while at the same time switching from 90%-agricultural workforce to anything more progressive can happen only if there is a cheap source of energy available - and we already have mined and spent all of easily available fossil fuels. Even if all kinds of fancy devices are available and constructed by rich enthusiasts, the lack of cheap steam power ensures lack of cheap steel/etc, and all the technologies don't get the mass adoption required for their improvements, there are almost no advantages for industrialization, so the world gets stuck in feudal-agriculture systems as the local optimum. which suggests the Knowledge Ark would be largely a waste of time. * refers to a preceding comment. Robert C On 3/21/13 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore wrote: From HN, a pointer to a delightfully clever essay that would be loved by Nick and others who are often bewildered by the hacker alphabet soup of acronyms and buzz words. Well, what _does_ happen when you got to a web page? https://plus.google.com/112218872649456413744/posts/dfydM2Cnepe https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5408597 This has the possibility of a new book that somehow makes it all reasonably clear. Maybe. -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe
Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Fwd: You just went to the Google homepage. What actually happened?
Steam engines work fine on wood - not as efficient but they worked with wood for years. Hydro-power has worked even better since ancient times. Charcoal comes from wood and can be made into coke. All that aside, I don't understand the comment we already have mined and spent all of easily available fossil fuels. That's stupid on several levels. Ray Parks Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager V: 505-844-4024 M: 505-238-9359 P: 505-951-6084 NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder) JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder) On Mar 21, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote: At the risk of hijacking the thread... I liked the comment on the ycombinator: PeterisP There exists a viewpoint that in case of a cataclysm (which would involve man-made objects disappearing*) we would never, ever progress past 18th century tech again. The argument is that getting from animal-powered devices to solar/nuclear/whatever powered devices while at the same time switching from 90%-agricultural workforce to anything more progressive can happen only if there is a cheap source of energy available - and we already have mined and spent all of easily available fossil fuels. Even if all kinds of fancy devices are available and constructed by rich enthusiasts, the lack of cheap steam power ensures lack of cheap steel/etc, and all the technologies don't get the mass adoption required for their improvements, there are almost no advantages for industrialization, so the world gets stuck in feudal-agriculture systems as the local optimum. which suggests the Knowledge Ark would be largely a waste of time. * refers to a preceding comment. Robert C On 3/21/13 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore wrote: From HN, a pointer to a delightfully clever essay that would be loved by Nick and others who are often bewildered by the hacker alphabet soup of acronyms and buzz words. Well, what _does_ happen when you got to a web page? https://plus.google.com/112218872649456413744/posts/dfydM2Cnepe https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5408597 This has the possibility of a new book that somehow makes it all reasonably clear. Maybe. -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Fwd: You just went to the Google homepage. What actually happened?
Yeah, wood is great, except almost everywhere that depended on it ended up with none within wood gathering radius. The story is if you look at early photos of Santa Fe, the hills seem strangely denuded compared to the present. -- rec -- On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Parks, Raymond rcpa...@sandia.gov wrote: Steam engines work fine on wood - not as efficient but they worked with wood for years. Hydro-power has worked even better since ancient times. Charcoal comes from wood and can be made into coke. All that aside, I don't understand the comment we already have mined and spent all of easily available fossil fuels. That's stupid on several levels. Ray Parks Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager V: 505-844-4024 M: 505-238-9359 P: 505-951-6084 NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder) JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder) On Mar 21, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote: At the risk of hijacking the thread... I liked the comment on the ycombinator: PeterisP There exists a viewpoint that in case of a cataclysm (which would involve man-made objects disappearing*) we would never, ever progress past 18th century tech again. The argument is that getting from animal-powered devices to solar/nuclear/whatever powered devices while at the same time switching from 90%-agricultural workforce to anything more progressive can happen only if there is a cheap source of energy available - and we already have mined and spent all of easily available fossil fuels. Even if all kinds of fancy devices are available and constructed by rich enthusiasts, the lack of cheap steam power ensures lack of cheap steel/etc, and all the technologies don't get the mass adoption required for their improvements, there are almost no advantages for industrialization, so the world gets stuck in feudal-agriculture systems as the local optimum. which suggests the Knowledge Arkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_arkwould be largely a waste of time. * refers to a preceding comment. Robert C On 3/21/13 11:00 AM, Owen Densmore wrote: From HN, a pointer to a delightfully clever essay that would be loved by Nick and others who are often bewildered by the hacker alphabet soup of acronyms and buzz words. Well, what _does_ happen when you got to a web page? https://plus.google.com/112218872649456413744/posts/dfydM2Cnepe https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5408597 This has the possibility of a new book that somehow makes it all reasonably clear. Maybe. -- Owen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
