Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Marcus Daniels]

Nick writes:

<   What role does occam's razor play in software development? Any?  Or did it
  used to, and now it doesn't any more.  > 

Imagine telling a contractor that you wanted a room for watching movies.
Instead of looking at the rooms you have, running wires to speakers, and adding 
blinds on the windows, insulating the walls, etc. she said "Argh, this whole 
house is crap, I'm going to build you a shed in the backyard for your movies."  
 This is how a lot of projects age, and describes the instincts of many 
software developers.   Mega-line codes exist because developers don't take time 
to understand the context of their work.   They find some minimal interface to 
the host code (that they *think* is safe) and then just hacking.   As projects 
get bigger it becomes harder to find any unifying principles to guide further 
construction.   Sometimes this is not a catastrophe, but other times 
assumptions break down and the reliability of the software suffers.   Imagine 
putting a two car garage on top of a flat-roof house supported only by 2x4s.
 

Marcus


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[thompnickson2]

What role does occam's razor play in software development? Any?  Or did it
used to, and now it doesn't any more. 

By the way, I apologize if I am not staying with this discussion adequately.
The last few days have been a firehose of good stuff and, to be honest, I am
choking on it.  

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
 


-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Russell Standish
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2019 9:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 07:29:27AM +, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written by
other people.The problem is that people are selfish.  They think that
their 10K LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was once that
too.It's the behavior of teenagers.

Well the examples I mentioned were all rewritten/refactored from a selfish
need - I had inherited code that I had experienced as having high technical
debt, requiring much more effort to modify for future needs than ought to
be, and eventually persuaded my PM that fixing that debt was a good
investment.

Of course a piece of crap code that happens to work just fine, and doesn't
need to be touched, I will leave that well alone, of if necessary, craft an
interface that takes care of administrative needs (such as memory allocation
and so on). I only refactor code that gets in the way of getting the job
done.

My point really was that the difficulty of working on a codebase is directly
correlated with LOC, and that acceptable brevity a desirable trait (my taste
for brevity seems to be much more developed than many of my colleagues,
however, perhaps because I have a mathematical background!).


-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Russell Standish]

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 07:29:27AM +, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written by 
> other people.The problem is that people are selfish.  They think that 
> their 10K LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was once that 
> too.It's the behavior of teenagers.

Well the examples I mentioned were all rewritten/refactored from a
selfish need - I had inherited code that I had experienced as having
high technical debt, requiring much more effort to modify for future
needs than ought to be, and eventually persuaded my PM that fixing
that debt was a good investment.

Of course a piece of crap code that happens to work just fine, and
doesn't need to be touched, I will leave that well alone, of if
necessary, craft an interface that takes care of administrative needs
(such as memory allocation and so on). I only refactor code that gets
in the way of getting the job done.

My point really was that the difficulty of working on a codebase is
directly correlated with LOC, and that acceptable brevity a desirable
trait (my taste for brevity seems to be much more developed than many
of my colleagues, however, perhaps because I have a mathematical
background!).


-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Robert Ballance]

And before that at Berkeley, HP Labs, and Bell Labs. C’est moi. 

... Bob

> On Dec 26, 2019, at 18:14, Angel Edward  wrote:
> 
> It may be Bob but he spent most of his career at Sandia and before that at 
> UNM CS.
> 
> Ed
> __
> 
> Ed Angel
> 
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
> 
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   edward.an...@gmail.com
> 505-453-4944 (cell)   http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
> 
>> On Dec 26, 2019, at 5:27 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>> 
>>  Bob Ballance!!
>> 
>> ---
>> Frank Wimberly
>> 
>> My memoir:
>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>> 
>> My scientific publications:
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>> 
>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>> 
>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:40 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>>> Also, there was a guy who had also worked at Bell Labs, for a lot longer 
>>> than I did, who used to come to Friam.  Then he got some kind of honorary 
>>> position in DC left town temporarily.  He had thinning white hair and wore 
>>> glasses and was about my height.  With that unique description someone must 
>>> know who I'm talking about. His name is on the tip of my tongue.
>>> 
>>> Frank
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> Frank Wimberly
>>> 
>>> My memoir:
>>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>> 
>>> My scientific publications:
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>> 
>>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:06 PM  wrote:
>>>> Our Own Lee Rudolph, was there as well.  In the belly of Net Logo, I think.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Lee Are you out there? 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Nick
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Nicholas Thompson
>>>> 
>>>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>>> 
>>>> Clark University
>>>> 
>>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2019 2:56 PM
>>>> To: friam@redfish.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Frank -
>>>> 
>>>> I am, it's first draft is roughly what I get when I filter my outbox.  
>>>> The chapters on "memoirs of sci/tech" are in the "recipients:Friam" 
>>>> stream... this collection may very well also be the primary contents of 
>>>> many's TL;DR folder here.
>>>> 
>>>> I would appreciate a second memoir from yourself covering the years 
>>>> (and anecdotes) including running Paul Erdos out of the Berkeley Campus 
>>>> Library each night and the belly of the ATT and CMU (and???) beasts... to 
>>>> complement the not-too-long-after-wild-wild-west days in NM.
>>>> 
>>>> My friend who is no more than a couple of years younger than you who 
>>>> grew up in Las Vegas and Amarillo recognized a lot of familiar "color" 
>>>> from your memoir.  He got lucky and ended up at MIT in the early 60s...
>>>> 
>>>> - Steve
>>>> 
>>>> On 12/26/19 11:30 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Steve,
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> You should write a memoir.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Frank
>>>> 
>>>> ---
>>>> Frank Wimberly
>>>> 
>>>> My memoir:
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>>> 
>>>> My scientific publications:
>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>>> 
>>>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 10:42 AM Steven A Smith  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Frank -
>>>> 
>>>> It is f

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Frank Wimberly]

He still spent more time at Bell Labs than I did.

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 6:15 PM Angel Edward  wrote:

> It may be Bob but he spent most of his career at Sandia and before that at
> UNM CS.
>
> Ed
> __
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS
> Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   edward.an...@gmail.com
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
> On Dec 26, 2019, at 5:27 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>  Bob Ballance!!
>
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:40 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>> Also, there was a guy who had also worked at Bell Labs, for a lot longer
>> than I did, who used to come to Friam.  Then he got some kind of honorary
>> position in DC left town temporarily.  He had thinning white hair and wore
>> glasses and was about my height.  With that unique description someone must
>> know who I'm talking about. His name is on the tip of my tongue.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank Wimberly
>>
>> My memoir:
>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>
>> My scientific publications:
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>
>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:06 PM  wrote:
>>
>>> Our Own Lee Rudolph, was there as well.  In the belly of Net Logo, I
>>> think.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Lee Are you out there?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nicholas Thompson
>>>
>>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>>
>>> Clark University
>>>
>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>>
>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steven A Smith
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 26, 2019 2:56 PM
>>> *To:* friam@redfish.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Frank -
>>>
>>> I am, it's first draft is roughly what I get when I filter my
>>> outbox.  The chapters on "memoirs of sci/tech" are in the
>>> "recipients:Friam" stream... this collection may very well also be the
>>> primary contents of many's TL;DR folder here.
>>>
>>> I would appreciate a second memoir from yourself covering the years
>>> (and anecdotes) including running Paul Erdos out of the Berkeley Campus
>>> Library each night and the belly of the ATT and CMU (and???) beasts... to
>>> complement the not-too-long-after-wild-wild-west days in NM.
>>>
>>> My friend who is no more than a couple of years younger than you who
>>> grew up in Las Vegas and Amarillo recognized a lot of familiar "color" from
>>> your memoir.  He got lucky and ended up at MIT in the early 60s...
>>>
>>> - Steve
>>>
>>> On 12/26/19 11:30 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>>
>>> Steve,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You should write a memoir.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank Wimberly
>>>
>>> My memoir:
>>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>>
>>> My scientific publications:
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>>
>>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 10:42 AM Steven A Smith  wrote:
>>>
>>> Frank -
>>>
>>> It is fascinating to hear that you were in the "belly of the beast" if
>>> only for a short while.  I suppose we have all been in the belly of *some*
>>> beast in our various times.
>>>
>>> My earliest years were without a telephone in the house (camp-trailer in
>>> the woods) followed by several party lines (shared in 2 case

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Angel Edward]

It may be Bob but he spent most of his career at Sandia and before that at UNM 
CS.

Ed
__

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) edward.an...@gmail.com
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

> On Dec 26, 2019, at 5:27 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
> 
>  Bob Ballance!!
> 
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
> 
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly 
> <https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly>
> 
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 
> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2>
> 
> Phone (505) 670-9918
> 
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:40 PM Frank Wimberly  <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Also, there was a guy who had also worked at Bell Labs, for a lot longer than 
> I did, who used to come to Friam.  Then he got some kind of honorary position 
> in DC left town temporarily.  He had thinning white hair and wore glasses and 
> was about my height.  With that unique description someone must know who I'm 
> talking about. His name is on the tip of my tongue.
> 
> Frank
> 
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
> 
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly 
> <https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly>
> 
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 
> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2>
> 
> Phone (505) 670-9918
> 
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:06 PM  <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Our Own Lee Rudolph, was there as well.  In the belly of Net Logo, I think.
> 
>  
> 
> Lee Are you out there? 
> 
>  
> 
> Nick
> 
>  
> 
> Nicholas Thompson
> 
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> 
> Clark University
> 
> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
> Behalf Of Steven A Smith
> Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2019 2:56 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
> 
>  
> 
> Frank -
> 
> I am, it's first draft is roughly what I get when I filter my outbox.  
> The chapters on "memoirs of sci/tech" are in the "recipients:Friam" stream... 
> this collection may very well also be the primary contents of many's TL;DR 
> folder here.
> 
> I would appreciate a second memoir from yourself covering the years (and 
> anecdotes) including running Paul Erdos out of the Berkeley Campus Library 
> each night and the belly of the ATT and CMU (and???) beasts... to complement 
> the not-too-long-after-wild-wild-west days in NM.
> 
> My friend who is no more than a couple of years younger than you who grew 
> up in Las Vegas and Amarillo recognized a lot of familiar "color" from your 
> memoir.  He got lucky and ended up at MIT in the early 60s...
> 
> - Steve
> 
> On 12/26/19 11:30 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> 
> Steve,
> 
>  
> 
> You should write a memoir.
> 
>  
> 
> Frank
> 
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
> 
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly 
> <https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly>
> 
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 
> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2>
> 
> Phone (505) 670-9918
> 
>  
> 
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 10:42 AM Steven A Smith  <mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:
> 
> Frank -
> 
> It is fascinating to hear that you were in the "belly of the beast" if only 
> for a short while.  I suppose we have all been in the belly of *some* beast 
> in our various times.
> 
> My earliest years were without a telephone in the house (camp-trailer in the 
> woods) followed by several party lines (shared in 2 cases amongst other USFS 
> families in forest-camp compounds) and understanding that the magical rings 
> and voices coming from the handsets in the house were modulated (whatever 
> that meant to a 3 year old) over the insulated bundles of wires running from 
> tree-to-tree and pole-to-pole...   It wasn't hard to understand the idea that 
> if voices could travel over single wires, that any one of us on a

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Frank Wimberly]

 Bob Ballance!!

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:40 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Also, there was a guy who had also worked at Bell Labs, for a lot longer
> than I did, who used to come to Friam.  Then he got some kind of honorary
> position in DC left town temporarily.  He had thinning white hair and wore
> glasses and was about my height.  With that unique description someone must
> know who I'm talking about. His name is on the tip of my tongue.
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:06 PM  wrote:
>
>> Our Own Lee Rudolph, was there as well.  In the belly of Net Logo, I
>> think.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lee Are you out there?
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steven A Smith
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 26, 2019 2:56 PM
>> *To:* friam@redfish.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank -
>>
>> I am, it's first draft is roughly what I get when I filter my
>> outbox.  The chapters on "memoirs of sci/tech" are in the
>> "recipients:Friam" stream... this collection may very well also be the
>> primary contents of many's TL;DR folder here.
>>
>> I would appreciate a second memoir from yourself covering the years
>> (and anecdotes) including running Paul Erdos out of the Berkeley Campus
>> Library each night and the belly of the ATT and CMU (and???) beasts... to
>> complement the not-too-long-after-wild-wild-west days in NM.
>>
>> My friend who is no more than a couple of years younger than you who
>> grew up in Las Vegas and Amarillo recognized a lot of familiar "color" from
>> your memoir.  He got lucky and ended up at MIT in the early 60s...
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>> On 12/26/19 11:30 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>
>> Steve,
>>
>>
>>
>> You should write a memoir.
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> ---
>> Frank Wimberly
>>
>> My memoir:
>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>
>> My scientific publications:
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>
>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 10:42 AM Steven A Smith  wrote:
>>
>> Frank -
>>
>> It is fascinating to hear that you were in the "belly of the beast" if
>> only for a short while.  I suppose we have all been in the belly of *some*
>> beast in our various times.
>>
>> My earliest years were without a telephone in the house (camp-trailer in
>> the woods) followed by several party lines (shared in 2 cases amongst other
>> USFS families in forest-camp compounds) and understanding that the magical
>> rings and voices coming from the handsets in the house were modulated
>> (whatever that meant to a 3 year old) over the insulated bundles of wires
>> running from tree-to-tree and pole-to-pole...   It wasn't hard to
>> understand the idea that if voices could travel over single wires, that any
>> one of us on a party line could pick up and hear the other's voices during
>> a conversation or even that the volume/static on the line would abruptly
>> change if someone picked up (say to listen in?).   It made perfect sense
>> that such resources (wires on poles) were very scarce and needed to be
>> shared...   I had heard of operator-assisted calling which made great sense
>> (patch panels) but the idea that the pulses sent via the spring-loaded
>> rotary dial could "tell" a electromechanical switch (my father showed me
>> the one in the main location at the second forest camp when I was about 5)
>> and I remember watching/hearing a call go through it... relays opening and
>> closing as ring pulses went through...
>>
>> One of my friend's father was the local telephone lineman and he was busy
>> all the time either go

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Frank Wimberly]

Also, there was a guy who had also worked at Bell Labs, for a lot longer
than I did, who used to come to Friam.  Then he got some kind of honorary
position in DC left town temporarily.  He had thinning white hair and wore
glasses and was about my height.  With that unique description someone must
know who I'm talking about. His name is on the tip of my tongue.

Frank

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:06 PM  wrote:

> Our Own Lee Rudolph, was there as well.  In the belly of Net Logo, I
> think.
>
>
>
> Lee Are you out there?
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steven A Smith
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 26, 2019 2:56 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>
>
>
> Frank -
>
> I am, it's first draft is roughly what I get when I filter my outbox.
> The chapters on "memoirs of sci/tech" are in the "recipients:Friam"
> stream... this collection may very well also be the primary contents of
> many's TL;DR folder here.
>
> I would appreciate a second memoir from yourself covering the years
> (and anecdotes) including running Paul Erdos out of the Berkeley Campus
> Library each night and the belly of the ATT and CMU (and???) beasts... to
> complement the not-too-long-after-wild-wild-west days in NM.
>
> My friend who is no more than a couple of years younger than you who
> grew up in Las Vegas and Amarillo recognized a lot of familiar "color" from
> your memoir.  He got lucky and ended up at MIT in the early 60s...
>
> - Steve
>
> On 12/26/19 11:30 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
>
>
> You should write a memoir.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 10:42 AM Steven A Smith  wrote:
>
> Frank -
>
> It is fascinating to hear that you were in the "belly of the beast" if
> only for a short while.  I suppose we have all been in the belly of *some*
> beast in our various times.
>
> My earliest years were without a telephone in the house (camp-trailer in
> the woods) followed by several party lines (shared in 2 cases amongst other
> USFS families in forest-camp compounds) and understanding that the magical
> rings and voices coming from the handsets in the house were modulated
> (whatever that meant to a 3 year old) over the insulated bundles of wires
> running from tree-to-tree and pole-to-pole...   It wasn't hard to
> understand the idea that if voices could travel over single wires, that any
> one of us on a party line could pick up and hear the other's voices during
> a conversation or even that the volume/static on the line would abruptly
> change if someone picked up (say to listen in?).   It made perfect sense
> that such resources (wires on poles) were very scarce and needed to be
> shared...   I had heard of operator-assisted calling which made great sense
> (patch panels) but the idea that the pulses sent via the spring-loaded
> rotary dial could "tell" a electromechanical switch (my father showed me
> the one in the main location at the second forest camp when I was about 5)
> and I remember watching/hearing a call go through it... relays opening and
> closing as ring pulses went through...
>
> One of my friend's father was the local telephone lineman and he was busy
> all the time either going out on trouble calls or doing maintenance on the
> switches.  Realizing that in a community of roughly 300 (600 in the county
> at the time!) was keeping one man busy (more than) full time doing this was
> my first taste of "infrastructure".  I don't know what kind of backup he
> had... I never saw anyone else working with him nor heard of anyone else
> employed... though I do know sometimes there were company trucks parked at
> the fenced yard next to his house... probably for new line buildout?
> Another father of a friend owned/operated the local "vending" routes which
> included soda machines, candy machines and best of all pinball machines.
> HIs territory must have been pretty wide because our 300 town only had one
> soda/candy mach

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[thompnickson2]

Our Own Lee Rudolph, was there as well.  In the belly of Net Logo, I think. 

 

Lee Are you out there?  

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2019 2:56 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

 

Frank -

I am, it's first draft is roughly what I get when I filter my outbox.  The 
chapters on "memoirs of sci/tech" are in the "recipients:Friam" stream... this 
collection may very well also be the primary contents of many's TL;DR folder 
here.

I would appreciate a second memoir from yourself covering the years (and 
anecdotes) including running Paul Erdos out of the Berkeley Campus Library each 
night and the belly of the ATT and CMU (and???) beasts... to complement the 
not-too-long-after-wild-wild-west days in NM.

My friend who is no more than a couple of years younger than you who grew 
up in Las Vegas and Amarillo recognized a lot of familiar "color" from your 
memoir.  He got lucky and ended up at MIT in the early 60s... 

- Steve

On 12/26/19 11:30 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

Steve, 

 

You should write a memoir.

 

Frank

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

 

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 10:42 AM Steven A Smith mailto:sasm...@swcp.com> > wrote:

Frank -

It is fascinating to hear that you were in the "belly of the beast" if only for 
a short while.  I suppose we have all been in the belly of *some* beast in our 
various times.

My earliest years were without a telephone in the house (camp-trailer in the 
woods) followed by several party lines (shared in 2 cases amongst other USFS 
families in forest-camp compounds) and understanding that the magical rings and 
voices coming from the handsets in the house were modulated (whatever that 
meant to a 3 year old) over the insulated bundles of wires running from 
tree-to-tree and pole-to-pole...   It wasn't hard to understand the idea that 
if voices could travel over single wires, that any one of us on a party line 
could pick up and hear the other's voices during a conversation or even that 
the volume/static on the line would abruptly change if someone picked up (say 
to listen in?).   It made perfect sense that such resources (wires on poles) 
were very scarce and needed to be shared...   I had heard of operator-assisted 
calling which made great sense (patch panels) but the idea that the pulses sent 
via the spring-loaded rotary dial could "tell" a electromechanical switch (my 
father showed me the one in the main location at the second forest camp when I 
was about 5) and I remember watching/hearing a call go through it... relays 
opening and closing as ring pulses went through...  

One of my friend's father was the local telephone lineman and he was busy all 
the time either going out on trouble calls or doing maintenance on the 
switches.  Realizing that in a community of roughly 300 (600 in the county at 
the time!) was keeping one man busy (more than) full time doing this was my 
first taste of "infrastructure".  I don't know what kind of backup he had... I 
never saw anyone else working with him nor heard of anyone else employed... 
though I do know sometimes there were company trucks parked at the fenced yard 
next to his house... probably for new line buildout?   Another father of a 
friend owned/operated the local "vending" routes which included soda machines, 
candy machines and best of all pinball machines.  HIs territory must have been 
pretty wide because our 300 town only had one soda/candy machine at each of 2 
gasoline stations and 3 pinball machines at the drug/variety store.   I got to 
see the ones in their shop behind the house under repair opened up and really 
got a kick out of trying to "trace the logic" of a coin-drop/lever-pull, 
delivery-chute... and even better, the complex logic of a pinball machine.   
Yet another father drove the propane delivery truck (he had a boss who drove 
some, but he was the main driver) and another who ran the local branch of the 
power - coop  along with his wife.   They had more trucks that came in from the 
next large town (60 miles and maybe 1000 people?) to do major repairs/upgrades, 
but he was out in his truck all the time fixing/installing *something*.  
Several of these men ran an ad-hoc cable network in the core of the village...  
nothing came in by antenna and I guess they had their own up on a mountain with 
a rebroadcast system...   the network was down as much as it was up and while 
*some* of 

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Frank Wimberly]

ile
>> and robust.   They are robust within the "basins of attraction" implied by
>> the ecosystem they operate within but once pushed out of those robust
>> regions they can self-destruct quickly... I've been studying (very loosely)
>> the myriad examples of species extinction and habitat loss and cascading
>> failures (in progress and/or impending) in our ecosystems and am appalled
>> at how unprepared we (humans, engineers, even scientists) are to apprehend
>> the fragile interconnectedness and "designed for near-optimal-conditions"
>> we have set up.   Not precisely a house of cards, a line of dominos, a
>> stack of Jenga sticks, but not precisely NOT those either.
>>
>> My recent trip to Europe/Scandinavia opened my eyes to some things I was
>> previously under-aware of.   The evolved-engineered systems of polder and
>> canal and dike and hydrology in the Netherlands is perhaps the most
>> impressive.   Realizing that they started significantly holding back the
>> north sea during the "little ice age" (dikes and polders had started
>> earlier, but this was when they really came into their own?) helps me to
>> appreciate the difference between what they have done there over centuries
>> vs what our own Army Corps has done in less than 100...   and most to the
>> point, the ways a whole culture can adapt to things including their own
>> engineering given many generations, but how we "moderns" don't have time to
>> adapt culturally to the changes.   We DO adapt (the talk of telephones and
>> the earliest examples leading up to a global wireless,
>> multi-system-technology mesh/grid being an example), but it isn't clear to
>> me that our adaptation is *deep* enough to be robust...
>>
>> Another example in less detail is what has been come to be called "the
>> Nordic Secret" which is roughly the response of Scandinavia to the
>> enlightenment followed by the industrial revolution and perhaps most
>> acutely the post WWII industrial/cultural explosion in the west.   In many
>> ways they follow the rest of the West, but it seems they may actually know
>> "a secret" about sustainability, both industrially and culturally.
>>
>> The "Endogenous Existential Threats" of our time are many/myriad and to
>> the point... Endogenous... self-generatated...   and while we may be taking
>> down a lot of the biosphere-as-we-know it with us, the biggest tragedy
>> seems to be set to land ON us, and those closest to us (our domisticates
>> and the remaining large mammal species)...  though that also may simply be
>> an anthropocentric view.
>>
>> As Dave's title says "IT" is not sustainable...   you name the "it" and
>> it very likely has a lamer lifetime than you imagine (my Y2K anecdote
>> notwithstanding)...
>>
>> I WILL say that despite my neo-Luddite rants, I've become more of an
>> Eco-Modernist of late...  not necessarily wanting to trust that we can
>> "technology" our way out of the disasters we are creating with our
>> technology, but recognizing that perhaps we have little other choice
>> (culturally)...  and that we must *try* to walk the tightrope of using
>> "fire to fight fire" but with (perhaps) a lot more self-awareness than that
>> which we used to paint ourselves into this (mixed metaphor of a) corner.
>>
>> 
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>>
>> On 12/26/19 9:08 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>
>>
>> "CenturyLink (NYSE: CTL) has set a goal to reduce power consumption on
>> its public switched telephone network by nearly 22,000 megawatt-hours a
>> year, reducing greenhouse gas emissions as more customers migrate to VoIP
>> and mobile voice services.
>>
>> Although CenturyLink is growing its IP-based voice service, this project
>> is focused on consolidating more than 400,000 legacy PSTN subscriber lines
>> across 50 Class 5 voice switches. "
>>
>>
>> They're called class 5 because of 5ESS which is the most used class 5
>> switch at CenturyLink.
>>
>> Sorry, but I had to clarify this.
>>
>>
>> Frsnk
>> ---
>> Frank Wimberly
>>
>> My memoir:
>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>
>> My scientific publications:
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>
>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:43 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> June 2019) (Learn how and when to remove this template message). 5ES

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Steven A Smith]

bile telephone network. The 5ESS
>> Switching System is a Class 5 telephone electronic switching
>> system developed by ...
>> ---
>> Frank Wimberly
>>
>>     My memoir:
>>     https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>
>> My scientific publications:
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>
>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:36 AM Marcus Daniels
>> mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Frank writes:
>>
>>  
>>
>> “This was the telephone network in question.“
>>
>>  
>>
>> With the mobile carriers and VOIP, I wonder how much of
>> that code is still used?  I once worked for a small
>> company that wrote software to do billing for long
>> distance telephone carriers.  I was amazed by the
>> seemingly arbitrary complexity.   Complex at a policy and
>> inter-organizational level, not just the software.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From: *Friam > <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on behalf of Frank
>> Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>>
>> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
>> Group mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
>> *Date: *Thursday, December 26, 2019 at 5:39 AM
>> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
>> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>>
>>  
>>
>> At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC.  We also
>> had code reviews and software tools to enforce standards
>> and very high pay.  With a brand new PhD I made more than
>> all but the 3 most senior members of the CS faculty at
>> Pitt where I was a grad student.  This was the telephone
>> network in question.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Despite the high pay I disliked software administration
>> methodology.  The disagreements between the software tool
>> developers (version control, integration of subsystems,
>> compilers, etc) and the implementors of the applications,
>> such as call processing, were epic.  Recall that Bell
>> Labs invented C and Unix.  After 18 months I returned to
>> Pittsburgh to work at Carnegie Mellon in Robotics for two
>> thirds the salary.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Number 5 ESS was first deployed in March 1982, 4 years
>> after work began.  I suspect that it didn't have 200
>> million lines of code then, but close to it.  Maybe Dave
>> doesn't consider it an IT project but many of the
>> software tools that were developed were included in later
>> Unix releases, I believe.
>>
>>  
>>
>> It's going to be a beautiful day in Santa Fe.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> ---
>> Frank Wimberly
>>
>> My memoir:
>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>
>> My scientific publications:
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>
>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>
>>  
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 1:28 AM Gary Schiltz
>> > <mailto:g...@naturesvisualarts.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Spot on. 
>>
>>  
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Marcus Daniels
>> mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or
>> improve code written by other people.    The
>> problem is that people are selfish.  They think
>> that their 10K LOC problem is beautiful and
>> nimble, but that 1M LOC was once that too.   

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Frank Wimberly]

tion and perhaps most
> acutely the post WWII industrial/cultural explosion in the west.   In many
> ways they follow the rest of the West, but it seems they may actually know
> "a secret" about sustainability, both industrially and culturally.
>
> The "Endogenous Existential Threats" of our time are many/myriad and to
> the point... Endogenous... self-generatated...   and while we may be taking
> down a lot of the biosphere-as-we-know it with us, the biggest tragedy
> seems to be set to land ON us, and those closest to us (our domisticates
> and the remaining large mammal species)...  though that also may simply be
> an anthropocentric view.
>
> As Dave's title says "IT" is not sustainable...   you name the "it" and it
> very likely has a lamer lifetime than you imagine (my Y2K anecdote
> notwithstanding)...
>
> I WILL say that despite my neo-Luddite rants, I've become more of an
> Eco-Modernist of late...  not necessarily wanting to trust that we can
> "technology" our way out of the disasters we are creating with our
> technology, but recognizing that perhaps we have little other choice
> (culturally)...  and that we must *try* to walk the tightrope of using
> "fire to fight fire" but with (perhaps) a lot more self-awareness than that
> which we used to paint ourselves into this (mixed metaphor of a) corner.
>
> 
>
> - Steve
>
>
> On 12/26/19 9:08 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
>
> "CenturyLink (NYSE: CTL) has set a goal to reduce power consumption on its
> public switched telephone network by nearly 22,000 megawatt-hours a year,
> reducing greenhouse gas emissions as more customers migrate to VoIP and
> mobile voice services.
>
> Although CenturyLink is growing its IP-based voice service, this project
> is focused on consolidating more than 400,000 legacy PSTN subscriber lines
> across 50 Class 5 voice switches. "
>
>
> They're called class 5 because of 5ESS which is the most used class 5
> switch at CenturyLink.
>
> Sorry, but I had to clarify this.
>
>
> Frsnk
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:43 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
>>
>> June 2019) (Learn how and when to remove this template message). 5ESS
>> used in a mobile telephone network. The 5ESS Switching System is a Class 5
>> telephone electronic switching system developed by ...
>> -------
>> Frank Wimberly
>>
>> My memoir:
>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>
>> My scientific publications:
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>
>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:36 AM Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> “This was the telephone network in question.“
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With the mobile carriers and VOIP, I wonder how much of that code is
>>> still used?  I once worked for a small company that wrote software to do
>>> billing for long distance telephone carriers.  I was amazed by the
>>> seemingly arbitrary complexity.   Complex at a policy and
>>> inter-organizational level, not just the software.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Friam  on behalf of Frank Wimberly <
>>> wimber...@gmail.com>
>>> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam@redfish.com>
>>> *Date: *Thursday, December 26, 2019 at 5:39 AM
>>> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam@redfish.com>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC.  We also had code reviews
>>> and software tools to enforce standards and very high pay.  With a brand
>>> new PhD I made more than all but the 3 most senior members of the CS
>>> faculty at Pitt where I was a grad student.  This was the telephone network
>>> in question.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Despite the high pay I disliked software administration methodology.
>>> The disagreements between the software tool developers (version control,
>>> integration of subsystems, compilers, etc) and the implementors of the
>>> applications, such as call processing, 

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Steven A Smith]

to paint ourselves into this (mixed metaphor of a)
corner.



- Steve


On 12/26/19 9:08 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> "CenturyLink (NYSE: CTL) has set a goal to reduce power consumption on
> its public switched telephone network by nearly 22,000 megawatt-hours
> a year, reducing greenhouse gas emissions as more customers migrate to
> VoIP and mobile voice services.
>
> Although CenturyLink is growing its IP-based voice service, this
> project is focused on consolidating more than 400,000 legacy PSTN
> subscriber lines across 50 Class 5 voice switches. "
>
>
> They're called class 5 because of 5ESS which is the most used class 5
> switch at CenturyLink.
>
> Sorry, but I had to clarify this.
>
>
> Frsnk
>
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:43 AM Frank Wimberly  <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> June 2019) (Learn how and when to remove this template message).
> 5ESS used in a mobile telephone network. The 5ESS Switching System
> is a Class 5 telephone electronic switching system developed by ...
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:36 AM Marcus Daniels  <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>
> Frank writes:
>
>  
>
> “This was the telephone network in question.“
>
>  
>
> With the mobile carriers and VOIP, I wonder how much of that
> code is still used?  I once worked for a small company that
> wrote software to do billing for long distance telephone
> carriers.  I was amazed by the seemingly arbitrary
> complexity.   Complex at a policy and inter-organizational
> level, not just the software.
>
>      
>
> Marcus
>
>  
>
> *From: *Friam  <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> on behalf of Frank
> Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>>
> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
> *Date: *Thursday, December 26, 2019 at 5:39 AM
> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>
>  
>
> At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC.  We also had
> code reviews and software tools to enforce standards and very
> high pay.  With a brand new PhD I made more than all but the 3
> most senior members of the CS faculty at Pitt where I was a
> grad student.  This was the telephone network in question.
>
>  
>
> Despite the high pay I disliked software administration
> methodology.  The disagreements between the software tool
> developers (version control, integration of subsystems,
> compilers, etc) and the implementors of the applications, such
> as call processing, were epic.  Recall that Bell Labs invented
> C and Unix.  After 18 months I returned to Pittsburgh to work
> at Carnegie Mellon in Robotics for two thirds the salary.
>
>  
>
> Number 5 ESS was first deployed in March 1982, 4 years after
> work began.  I suspect that it didn't have 200 million lines
> of code then, but close to it.  Maybe Dave doesn't consider it
> an IT project but many of the software tools that were
> developed were included in later Unix releases, I believe.
>
>  
>
> It's going to be a beautiful day in Santa Fe.
>
>  
>
> Frank
>
>  
>
>  
>
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
>  
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 1:28 AM Gary Schiltz
>  <mailto:g...@naturesvisualarts.com>> wrote:
>
> Spot on. 
>
>  
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Marcus Daniels
> mail

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Eric Smith]

Hi Nick,

There probably are many such studies that people on this list will know of from 
deeper traditions in Computer Science, but the one I happen to know about is 
solo work by David Ackley of UNM.  He did a study of the replacement statistics 
of C libraries in open-source software, explicitly looking for how the causal 
dependencies in an evolving system, not master-planned, but constantly sieved 
for internal consistency, would lead to punctuated equilibrium and landslide 
dynamics as changes accumulated.

I don’t know how much of this Dave published; I know of it through a few public 
presentations he made at SFI events.  Perhaps between 10 and 14 years ago?  
Could be that I am off, and that it is in the 5-year interval earlier than that.

Best,

Eric



> On Dec 26, 2019, at 11:53 AM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> Has anybody written for us defrocked English majors an account of the 
> evolution of software.It must be subject to the same klugy processes that 
> organismic evolution is but it also must be different because, with software 
> evolution you can, SOMETIMES, go back to the beginning and start again.  
> Wildly Naïve Question:  If one “sequenced” today’s Windows, how many DOS 
> “genes” would one find?  I note, for instance, that still, after 30 years, in 
> order to identify New Mexico as one’s state, to most websites, one still has 
> to scroll down a list of states, and last week, I ran into a list of 
> countries in which US was not the first item.  Just like the good old days.  
> I assume that developers just keep taking that old piece of crap off the 
> shelf and sticking it into their programs.  
>  
> Nick 
>  
> Nicholas Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> Clark University
> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>  
>  
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
> Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
> Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2019 8:44 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>  
> 
> June 2019) (Learn how and when to remove this template message). 5ESS used in 
> a mobile telephone network. The 5ESS Switching System is a Class 5 telephone 
> electronic switching system developed by ...
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
> 
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly 
> <https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly>
> 
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 
> <https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2>
> 
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>  
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:36 AM Marcus Daniels  <mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>> Frank writes:
>>  
>> “This was the telephone network in question.“
>>  
>> With the mobile carriers and VOIP, I wonder how much of that code is still 
>> used?  I once worked for a small company that wrote software to do billing 
>> for long distance telephone carriers.  I was amazed by the seemingly 
>> arbitrary complexity.   Complex at a policy and inter-organizational level, 
>> not just the software.
>>  
>> Marcus
>>  
>> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
>> on behalf of Frank Wimberly > <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>>
>> Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>> mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
>> Date: Thursday, December 26, 2019 at 5:39 AM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>>  
>> At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC.  We also had code reviews and 
>> software tools to enforce standards and very high pay.  With a brand new PhD 
>> I made more than all but the 3 most senior members of the CS faculty at Pitt 
>> where I was a grad student.  This was the telephone network in question. 
>>  
>> Despite the high pay I disliked software administration methodology.  The 
>> disagreements between the software tool developers (version control, 
>> integration of subsystems, compilers, etc) and the implementors of the 
>> applications, such as call processing, were epic.  Recall that Bell Labs 
>> invented C and Unix.  After 18 months I returned to Pittsburgh to work at 
>> Carnegie Mellon in Robotics for two thirds the salary.
>>  
>> Number 5 ESS was first deployed in March 1982, 4 years after work began.  I 
>> suspect that it didn't have 200 million lines of code then, but close to it. 
&

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[thompnickson2]

Has anybody written for us defrocked English majors an account of the evolution 
of software.It must be subject to the same klugy processes that organismic 
evolution is but it also must be different because, with software evolution you 
can, SOMETIMES, go back to the beginning and start again.  Wildly Naïve 
Question:  If one “sequenced” today’s Windows, how many DOS “genes” would one 
find?  I note, for instance, that still, after 30 years, in order to identify 
New Mexico as one’s state, to most websites, one still has to scroll down a 
list of states, and last week, I ran into a list of countries in which US was 
not the first item.  Just like the good old days.  I assume that developers 
just keep taking that old piece of crap off the shelf and sticking it into 
their programs.  

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2019 8:44 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

 


June 2019) (Learn how and when to remove this template message). 5ESS used in a 
mobile telephone network. The 5ESS Switching System is a Class 5 telephone 
electronic switching system developed by ...

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

 

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:36 AM Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

Frank writes:

 

“This was the telephone network in question.“

 

With the mobile carriers and VOIP, I wonder how much of that code is still 
used?  I once worked for a small company that wrote software to do billing for 
long distance telephone carriers.  I was amazed by the seemingly arbitrary 
complexity.   Complex at a policy and inter-organizational level, not just the 
software.

 

Marcus

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > on 
behalf of Frank Wimberly mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> >
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Date: Thursday, December 26, 2019 at 5:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

 

At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC.  We also had code reviews and 
software tools to enforce standards and very high pay.  With a brand new PhD I 
made more than all but the 3 most senior members of the CS faculty at Pitt 
where I was a grad student.  This was the telephone network in question. 

 

Despite the high pay I disliked software administration methodology.  The 
disagreements between the software tool developers (version control, 
integration of subsystems, compilers, etc) and the implementors of the 
applications, such as call processing, were epic.  Recall that Bell Labs 
invented C and Unix.  After 18 months I returned to Pittsburgh to work at 
Carnegie Mellon in Robotics for two thirds the salary.

 

Number 5 ESS was first deployed in March 1982, 4 years after work began.  I 
suspect that it didn't have 200 million lines of code then, but close to it.  
Maybe Dave doesn't consider it an IT project but many of the software tools 
that were developed were included in later Unix releases, I believe.

 

It's going to be a beautiful day in Santa Fe.

 

Frank

 

 

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

 

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 1:28 AM Gary Schiltz mailto:g...@naturesvisualarts.com> > wrote:

Spot on. 

 

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written by other 
people.The problem is that people are selfish.  They think that their 10K 
LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was once that too.It's 
the behavior of teenagers.

On 12/25/19, 10:47 PM, "Friam on behalf of Russell Standish" 
mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>  on behalf of 
li...@hpcoders.com.au <mailto:li...@hpcoders.com.au> > wrote:

It's all about the LOC! Actually, I kind of agree - having worked on
some MegaLOC codebases that functionally seemed to be no more complex
than a 10KLOC project I'm involved in, the 10KLOC project is much more
nimble - compile times are far less, making changes to the code easier
and bugs less troublesome to winkle out.

I've also refactored or rewritten pieces of code to slash the LOC by a
factor of 3 or more for that par

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Frank Wimberly]

"CenturyLink (NYSE: CTL) has set a goal to reduce power consumption on its
public switched telephone network by nearly 22,000 megawatt-hours a year,
reducing greenhouse gas emissions as more customers migrate to VoIP and
mobile voice services.

Although CenturyLink is growing its IP-based voice service, this project is
focused on consolidating more than 400,000 legacy PSTN subscriber lines
across 50 Class 5 voice switches. "


They're called class 5 because of 5ESS which is the most used class 5
switch at CenturyLink.

Sorry, but I had to clarify this.


Frsnk
---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:43 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

>
> June 2019) (Learn how and when to remove this template message). 5ESS used
> in a mobile telephone network. The 5ESS Switching System is a Class 5
> telephone electronic switching system developed by ...
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:36 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>
>> Frank writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> “This was the telephone network in question.“
>>
>>
>>
>> With the mobile carriers and VOIP, I wonder how much of that code is
>> still used?  I once worked for a small company that wrote software to do
>> billing for long distance telephone carriers.  I was amazed by the
>> seemingly arbitrary complexity.   Complex at a policy and
>> inter-organizational level, not just the software.
>>
>>
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Friam  on behalf of Frank Wimberly <
>> wimber...@gmail.com>
>> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Date: *Thursday, December 26, 2019 at 5:39 AM
>> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>>
>>
>>
>> At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC.  We also had code reviews
>> and software tools to enforce standards and very high pay.  With a brand
>> new PhD I made more than all but the 3 most senior members of the CS
>> faculty at Pitt where I was a grad student.  This was the telephone network
>> in question.
>>
>>
>>
>> Despite the high pay I disliked software administration methodology.  The
>> disagreements between the software tool developers (version control,
>> integration of subsystems, compilers, etc) and the implementors of the
>> applications, such as call processing, were epic.  Recall that Bell Labs
>> invented C and Unix.  After 18 months I returned to Pittsburgh to work at
>> Carnegie Mellon in Robotics for two thirds the salary.
>>
>>
>>
>> Number 5 ESS was first deployed in March 1982, 4 years after work began.
>> I suspect that it didn't have 200 million lines of code then, but close to
>> it.  Maybe Dave doesn't consider it an IT project but many of the software
>> tools that were developed were included in later Unix releases, I believe.
>>
>>
>>
>> It's going to be a beautiful day in Santa Fe.
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Frank Wimberly
>>
>> My memoir:
>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>
>> My scientific publications:
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>
>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 1:28 AM Gary Schiltz 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Spot on.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written by
>> other people.The problem is that people are selfish.  They think that
>> their 10K LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was once
>> that too.It's the behavior of teenagers.
>>
>> On 12/25/19, 10:47 PM, "Friam on behalf of Russell Standish" <
>> friam-boun...@redfish.com on behalf of li...@hpcoders.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> It's all about the LOC! Actually, I kind of agree - having worked on
>> some MegaLOC codebases that functionally seemed to be no more complex
>> than a 10KLOC project I'm

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Frank Wimberly]

June 2019) (Learn how and when to remove this template message). 5ESS used
in a mobile telephone network. The 5ESS Switching System is a Class 5
telephone electronic switching system developed by ...
---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:36 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> Frank writes:
>
>
>
> “This was the telephone network in question.“
>
>
>
> With the mobile carriers and VOIP, I wonder how much of that code is still
> used?  I once worked for a small company that wrote software to do billing
> for long distance telephone carriers.  I was amazed by the seemingly
> arbitrary complexity.   Complex at a policy and inter-organizational level,
> not just the software.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> *From: *Friam  on behalf of Frank Wimberly <
> wimber...@gmail.com>
> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Date: *Thursday, December 26, 2019 at 5:39 AM
> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>
>
>
> At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC.  We also had code reviews
> and software tools to enforce standards and very high pay.  With a brand
> new PhD I made more than all but the 3 most senior members of the CS
> faculty at Pitt where I was a grad student.  This was the telephone network
> in question.
>
>
>
> Despite the high pay I disliked software administration methodology.  The
> disagreements between the software tool developers (version control,
> integration of subsystems, compilers, etc) and the implementors of the
> applications, such as call processing, were epic.  Recall that Bell Labs
> invented C and Unix.  After 18 months I returned to Pittsburgh to work at
> Carnegie Mellon in Robotics for two thirds the salary.
>
>
>
> Number 5 ESS was first deployed in March 1982, 4 years after work began.
> I suspect that it didn't have 200 million lines of code then, but close to
> it.  Maybe Dave doesn't consider it an IT project but many of the software
> tools that were developed were included in later Unix releases, I believe.
>
>
>
> It's going to be a beautiful day in Santa Fe.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 1:28 AM Gary Schiltz 
> wrote:
>
> Spot on.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
> Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written by
> other people.The problem is that people are selfish.  They think that
> their 10K LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was once
> that too.It's the behavior of teenagers.
>
> On 12/25/19, 10:47 PM, "Friam on behalf of Russell Standish" <
> friam-boun...@redfish.com on behalf of li...@hpcoders.com.au> wrote:
>
> It's all about the LOC! Actually, I kind of agree - having worked on
> some MegaLOC codebases that functionally seemed to be no more complex
> than a 10KLOC project I'm involved in, the 10KLOC project is much more
> nimble - compile times are far less, making changes to the code easier
> and bugs less troublesome to winkle out.
>
> I've also refactored or rewritten pieces of code to slash the LOC by a
> factor of 3 or more for that particular section (eg 3KLOC -> 1KLOC) -
> but usually when bugs and problems kept on cropping up in that
> section.
>
> Even though the LOC is an entirely bogus measurement - if you paid a
> programmer by LOC, you'd get boilerplate and crappy comments.
>
> --
>
>
> 
> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders
> Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
> Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>
> 
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archiv

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Marcus Daniels]

Frank writes:

“This was the telephone network in question.“

With the mobile carriers and VOIP, I wonder how much of that code is still 
used?  I once worked for a small company that wrote software to do billing for 
long distance telephone carriers.  I was amazed by the seemingly arbitrary 
complexity.   Complex at a policy and inter-organizational level, not just the 
software.

Marcus

From: Friam  on behalf of Frank Wimberly 

Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Date: Thursday, December 26, 2019 at 5:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC.  We also had code reviews and 
software tools to enforce standards and very high pay.  With a brand new PhD I 
made more than all but the 3 most senior members of the CS faculty at Pitt 
where I was a grad student.  This was the telephone network in question.

Despite the high pay I disliked software administration methodology.  The 
disagreements between the software tool developers (version control, 
integration of subsystems, compilers, etc) and the implementors of the 
applications, such as call processing, were epic.  Recall that Bell Labs 
invented C and Unix.  After 18 months I returned to Pittsburgh to work at 
Carnegie Mellon in Robotics for two thirds the salary.

Number 5 ESS was first deployed in March 1982, 4 years after work began.  I 
suspect that it didn't have 200 million lines of code then, but close to it.  
Maybe Dave doesn't consider it an IT project but many of the software tools 
that were developed were included in later Unix releases, I believe.

It's going to be a beautiful day in Santa Fe.

Frank


---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 1:28 AM Gary Schiltz 
mailto:g...@naturesvisualarts.com>> wrote:
Spot on.

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written by other 
people.The problem is that people are selfish.  They think that their 10K 
LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was once that too.It's 
the behavior of teenagers.

On 12/25/19, 10:47 PM, "Friam on behalf of Russell Standish" 
mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of 
li...@hpcoders.com.au<mailto:li...@hpcoders.com.au>> wrote:

It's all about the LOC! Actually, I kind of agree - having worked on
some MegaLOC codebases that functionally seemed to be no more complex
than a 10KLOC project I'm involved in, the 10KLOC project is much more
nimble - compile times are far less, making changes to the code easier
and bugs less troublesome to winkle out.

I've also refactored or rewritten pieces of code to slash the LOC by a
factor of 3 or more for that particular section (eg 3KLOC -> 1KLOC) -
but usually when bugs and problems kept on cropping up in that
section.

Even though the LOC is an entirely bogus measurement - if you paid a
programmer by LOC, you'd get boilerplate and crappy comments.

--


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellow
hpco...@hpcoders.com.au<mailto:hpco...@hpcoders.com.au>
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsu

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Frank Wimberly]

At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC.  We also had code reviews
and software tools to enforce standards and very high pay.  With a brand
new PhD I made more than all but the 3 most senior members of the CS
faculty at Pitt where I was a grad student.  This was the telephone network
in question.

Despite the high pay I disliked software administration methodology.  The
disagreements between the software tool developers (version control,
integration of subsystems, compilers, etc) and the implementors of the
applications, such as call processing, were epic.  Recall that Bell Labs
invented C and Unix.  After 18 months I returned to Pittsburgh to work at
Carnegie Mellon in Robotics for two thirds the salary.

Number 5 ESS was first deployed in March 1982, 4 years after work began.  I
suspect that it didn't have 200 million lines of code then, but close to
it.  Maybe Dave doesn't consider it an IT project but many of the software
tools that were developed were included in later Unix releases, I believe.

It's going to be a beautiful day in Santa Fe.

Frank


---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 1:28 AM Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> Spot on.
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written by
>> other people.The problem is that people are selfish.  They think that
>> their 10K LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was once
>> that too.It's the behavior of teenagers.
>>
>> On 12/25/19, 10:47 PM, "Friam on behalf of Russell Standish" <
>> friam-boun...@redfish.com on behalf of li...@hpcoders.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> It's all about the LOC! Actually, I kind of agree - having worked on
>> some MegaLOC codebases that functionally seemed to be no more complex
>> than a 10KLOC project I'm involved in, the 10KLOC project is much more
>> nimble - compile times are far less, making changes to the code easier
>> and bugs less troublesome to winkle out.
>>
>> I've also refactored or rewritten pieces of code to slash the LOC by a
>> factor of 3 or more for that particular section (eg 3KLOC -> 1KLOC) -
>> but usually when bugs and problems kept on cropping up in that
>> section.
>>
>> Even though the LOC is an entirely bogus measurement - if you paid a
>> programmer by LOC, you'd get boilerplate and crappy comments.
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> 
>> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
>> Principal, High Performance Coders
>> Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
>> Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> FRIAM-COMIC 
>> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Gary Schiltz]

Spot on.

On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written by
> other people.The problem is that people are selfish.  They think that
> their 10K LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was once
> that too.It's the behavior of teenagers.
>
> On 12/25/19, 10:47 PM, "Friam on behalf of Russell Standish" <
> friam-boun...@redfish.com on behalf of li...@hpcoders.com.au> wrote:
>
> It's all about the LOC! Actually, I kind of agree - having worked on
> some MegaLOC codebases that functionally seemed to be no more complex
> than a 10KLOC project I'm involved in, the 10KLOC project is much more
> nimble - compile times are far less, making changes to the code easier
> and bugs less troublesome to winkle out.
>
> I've also refactored or rewritten pieces of code to slash the LOC by a
> factor of 3 or more for that particular section (eg 3KLOC -> 1KLOC) -
> but usually when bugs and problems kept on cropping up in that
> section.
>
> Even though the LOC is an entirely bogus measurement - if you paid a
> programmer by LOC, you'd get boilerplate and crappy comments.
>
> --
>
>
> 
> Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
> Principal, High Performance Coders
> Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
> Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>
> 
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC 
> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Marcus Daniels]

Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written by other 
people.The problem is that people are selfish.  They think that their 10K 
LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was once that too.It's 
the behavior of teenagers.

On 12/25/19, 10:47 PM, "Friam on behalf of Russell Standish" 
 wrote:

It's all about the LOC! Actually, I kind of agree - having worked on
some MegaLOC codebases that functionally seemed to be no more complex
than a 10KLOC project I'm involved in, the 10KLOC project is much more
nimble - compile times are far less, making changes to the code easier
and bugs less troublesome to winkle out.

I've also refactored or rewritten pieces of code to slash the LOC by a
factor of 3 or more for that particular section (eg 3KLOC -> 1KLOC) -
but usually when bugs and problems kept on cropping up in that
section.

Even though the LOC is an entirely bogus measurement - if you paid a
programmer by LOC, you'd get boilerplate and crappy comments.

-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au



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Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Russell Standish]

It's all about the LOC! Actually, I kind of agree - having worked on
some MegaLOC codebases that functionally seemed to be no more complex
than a 10KLOC project I'm involved in, the 10KLOC project is much more
nimble - compile times are far less, making changes to the code easier
and bugs less troublesome to winkle out.

I've also refactored or rewritten pieces of code to slash the LOC by a
factor of 3 or more for that particular section (eg 3KLOC -> 1KLOC) -
but usually when bugs and problems kept on cropping up in that
section.

Even though the LOC is an entirely bogus measurement - if you paid a
programmer by LOC, you'd get boilerplate and crappy comments.

-- 


Dr Russell StandishPhone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Senior Research Fellowhpco...@hpcoders.com.au
Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au



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Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Frank Wimberly]

Well, it wasn't actually a thread yet.   Maybe people prefer your topics.

Frank

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 4:00 PM  wrote:

> I bent the thread.  Sorry.
>
>
>
> n
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 25, 2019 3:20 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>
>
>
> How did we go from the possibility of sustainable IT to weather and
> Christmas decorations?
>
> ---
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 10:23 AM Prof David West 
> wrote:
>
> Wet, cool, and dark. Lots of lights. There is a canal light show going on
> for those that have 21 Euros burning a hole in pocket. Weesp is winter home
> to a large number of sailboats and they have decorated their rigging and
> their masts — very pretty! The Dutch are a hardy people - sidewalk cafes
> fully populated.
>
> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019, at 5:19 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hi, Dave,
> >
> > Cleveland Weather, here, in Santa Fe;  32-ish, dense FOG;  you can almost
> > smell the Lake.
> >
> > Night coming on in Amsterdam;
> >
> > Describe Christmas in Amsterdam for us.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > Nicholas Thompson
> > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> > Clark University
> > thompnicks...@gmail.com
> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2019 2:43 AM
> > To: friam@redfish.com
> > Subject: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
> >
> > just puffery
> >
> > the attached article was published on Medium.com and immediately
> selected as
> > an editor's recommendation in Environment and in Technology sections,
> then
> > republished to The Startup with 550,000 readers.
> >
> > one or two of you might find it interesting
> >
> > dave west
> >
> >
> > 
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> >
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[thompnickson2]

I bent the thread.  Sorry.  

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> thompnicks...@gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2019 3:20 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

 

How did we go from the possibility of sustainable IT to weather and Christmas 
decorations?

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

 

On Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 10:23 AM Prof David West mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm> > wrote:

Wet, cool, and dark. Lots of lights. There is a canal light show going on for 
those that have 21 Euros burning a hole in pocket. Weesp is winter home to a 
large number of sailboats and they have decorated their rigging and their masts 
— very pretty! The Dutch are a hardy people - sidewalk cafes fully populated.

On Wed, Dec 25, 2019, at 5:19 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> Hi, Dave, 
> 
> Cleveland Weather, here, in Santa Fe;  32-ish, dense FOG;  you can almost
> smell the Lake. 
> 
> Night coming on in Amsterdam;  
> 
> Describe Christmas in Amsterdam for us. 
> 
> Nick 
> 
> Nicholas Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> Clark University
> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> 
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>  
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > 
> On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2019 2:43 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com <mailto:friam@redfish.com> 
> Subject: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
> 
> just puffery
> 
> the attached article was published on Medium.com and immediately selected as
> an editor's recommendation in Environment and in Technology sections, then
> republished to The Startup with 550,000 readers.
> 
> one or two of you might find it interesting
> 
> dave west
> 
> 
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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<http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC> 
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Frank Wimberly]

How did we go from the possibility of sustainable IT to weather and
Christmas decorations?

---
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Wed, Dec 25, 2019, 10:23 AM Prof David West  wrote:

> Wet, cool, and dark. Lots of lights. There is a canal light show going on
> for those that have 21 Euros burning a hole in pocket. Weesp is winter home
> to a large number of sailboats and they have decorated their rigging and
> their masts — very pretty! The Dutch are a hardy people - sidewalk cafes
> fully populated.
>
> On Wed, Dec 25, 2019, at 5:19 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hi, Dave,
> >
> > Cleveland Weather, here, in Santa Fe;  32-ish, dense FOG;  you can almost
> > smell the Lake.
> >
> > Night coming on in Amsterdam;
> >
> > Describe Christmas in Amsterdam for us.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > Nicholas Thompson
> > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> > Clark University
> > thompnicks...@gmail.com
> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-----
> > From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2019 2:43 AM
> > To: friam@redfish.com
> > Subject: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
> >
> > just puffery
> >
> > the attached article was published on Medium.com and immediately
> selected as
> > an editor's recommendation in Environment and in Technology sections,
> then
> > republished to The Startup with 550,000 readers.
> >
> > one or two of you might find it interesting
> >
> > dave west
> >
> >
> > 
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> >
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC>
> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Jon Zingale]

Nick,

Dick Goddard and his woolly bears couldn't
have said it better!

Jon

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Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Prof David West]

Wet, cool, and dark. Lots of lights. There is a canal light show going on for 
those that have 21 Euros burning a hole in pocket. Weesp is winter home to a 
large number of sailboats and they have decorated their rigging and their masts 
— very pretty! The Dutch are a hardy people - sidewalk cafes fully populated.

On Wed, Dec 25, 2019, at 5:19 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi, Dave, 
> 
> Cleveland Weather, here, in Santa Fe;  32-ish, dense FOG;  you can almost
> smell the Lake. 
> 
> Night coming on in Amsterdam;  
> 
> Describe Christmas in Amsterdam for us. 
> 
> Nick 
> 
> Nicholas Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> Clark University
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>  
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2019 2:43 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
> 
> just puffery
> 
> the attached article was published on Medium.com and immediately selected as
> an editor's recommendation in Environment and in Technology sections, then
> republished to The Startup with 550,000 readers.
> 
> one or two of you might find it interesting
> 
> dave west
> 
> 
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>


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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[thompnickson2]

Hi, Dave, 

Cleveland Weather, here, in Santa Fe;  32-ish, dense FOG;  you can almost
smell the Lake. 

Night coming on in Amsterdam;  

Describe Christmas in Amsterdam for us. 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
 


-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2019 2:43 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

just puffery

the attached article was published on Medium.com and immediately selected as
an editor's recommendation in Environment and in Technology sections, then
republished to The Startup with 550,000 readers.

one or two of you might find it interesting

dave west



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[FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable

[Prof David West]

just puffery

the attached article was published on Medium.com and immediately selected as an 
editor's recommendation in Environment and in Technology sections, then 
republished to The Startup with 550,000 readers.

one or two of you might find it interesting

dave west


ITNOT.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document

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[FRIAM] Growth and a sustainable environment as we desire it.

[Louis Macovsky]

I thought the following from the Ecological Society of America listserve might 
be of interest to this group.
Tom Horton is a prolific writer about the Chesapeake Bay.


---Lou

Another nail in the coffin of economic growth, and its fundamental 
conflict with biodiversity conservation, should we choose to wield the 
hammer.

*Restoration of the Bay a failure and will remain so,*

*argues environmental writer Tom Horton***  To
 
The restoration of the Chesapeake Bay is a failure after 25 years and 
will remain so until political and environmental leaders stop embracing 
rapid, unending growth, says environmental writer Tom Horton.

In his study he argues: A fatal blind spot remains in the best 
strategies to save the Bay. The blind spot is our allegiance--some would 
say addiction--to perpetual economic growth, and to encouraging an 
ever-expanding population of human consumers to support it.

This is our mantra: Growth is good, or necessary, or at least 
inevitable. So unchallenged is this premise that we discuss it little 
more than the gravitational force that holds us to the planet.

In the study the longtime Baltimore /Sun/ environmental reporter and 
columnist details how both government and environmentalists focus only 
on the impacts of our lifestyles, acting as if it does not matter how 
many of us are living around the Bay.

He makes the point that this approach, though it is vital to the Bay's 
restoration, is a half-measure, doomed to fail so long as rapid growth 
continues. He challenges the myth that growth is inevitable, or 
necessary to achieve economic prosperity, and talks candidly about 
foreign immigration, the largest source of population growth.

By an end to growth, Horton writes, we do not mean an end to 
capitalism, stock markets, innovation, or even greed and corruption, but 
rather a shift to economic  /development/ to better serve those already 
here versus making endless and expensive accommodations for all who 
might be induced to come.

Ending growth is a debate needing to happen. Once we begin to shift the 
lens, to dare to consider alternatives to the current, growth-is-good 
mentality, many 'goods' will become 'bads.'  

Spending on wider roads, more power plants, bigger sewage treatment 
plants, now seen as necessary investments to accommodate growth, will 
look like taxpayer subsidies to a few sectors of the economy that are 
growth's only real beneficiaries.

Horton argues: It will be virtually impossible to reclaim our numerous 
environmental messes as population continues rising from the current 304 
million Americans to a projected half billion shortly after 2050; the 
Bay watershed, currently with 17 million people, is adding 1.7 million 
every decade.

A stable population and a steady state economy will not guarantee 
environmental or social Utopia, he argues, but it will give us 
breathing room, leave us options we will not otherwise have.

There is scarcely a problem facing us that can't be solved easier in 
the absence of rapid growth.

The report has been prepared on a grant from The Abell Foundation and 
can be downloaded from www.abell.org mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED].
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