Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system
Not all movements are fascist movements. A key difference is if they accept violence as a legitimate tool or not. The Nazi party started with violent street fights and ended in a violent world war. Robert Paxton and Hannah Arndt both emphasize the use of violence and terror in totalitarian systems. Hannah Arendt and Juan José Linz agree that far-right Nazism and far-left Soviet Communism were similar phenomena. Linz writes "Stalinism and fascism, in spite of a deep difference in social foundations, are symmetrical phenomena. In many of their features they show a deadly similarity." (in his book "Totalitarian and Authoritarian Regimes").One of the similarities besides the propaganda in a dictatorial one-party system was the use of terror and violence. In smaller movements the use of violence usually leads to terrorist groups. In West Germany where I was born we had the RAF (Red Army Faction) at the time of the Cold War which was a far-left terrorist group that used violence to achieve their political aims. It was supported by the KGB in Eastern Germany, the zone occupied by Russia where Putin started his career.-J. Original message From: Prof David West Date: 5/11/23 2:32 AM (GMT+01:00) To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system Once upon a time, I was a card carrying (metaphorically) bomb making (literally), persecuted (FBI and CIA in Japan) revolutionary.I was also an acid head, free love, hippy.The "card carrying" part denotes my membership in / participation in a "movement." The Paxton quote you shared —the creation of movements, he describes in chapter 2 a set of mobilizing passions which are "the emotional lava that set fascism’s foundations": from "a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions" to "the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external" — would certainly apply to that movement. United states, circa 1964-1972.To the extent that my observation is 'valid'; and the quote is representative of Paxton (have not read) then all movements are fascist whether they originated from the "left" or the "right."davewOn Wed, May 10, 2023, at 3:19 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:Yes, Robert Paxton tries to describe the essence of fascism in his book. While Hannah Arendt and Erich Fromm described fascism in Germany, and Stanley G. Payne is an expert for fascism in Spain, Robert Paxton is an expert for fascism in France during German occupation in WW II. He argues that it can reach different stages, just like the 5 stages of cancer in various degrees of severity. Chapter 2 to 6 in Paxton's book are dedicated to the 5 stages. Each chapter describes one stage, and one stage is a prerequisite for the next. The 5 stages are:(1) the creation of movements(2) their rooting in the political system(3) their seizure of power(4) the exercise of power (5) radicalization For the 1st stage, the creation of movements, he describes in chapter 2 a set of mobilizing passions which are "the emotional lava that set fascism’s foundations": from "a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions" to "the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external".In the final chapter 8 Paxton finally gives a definition of fascism and argues that "fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion".He argues that violence is a important hallmark of fascism: "the legitimation of violence against a demonized internal enemy brings us close to the heart of fascism" and that it would be "a phenomenon of failed democracies".-J. Original message From: glen Date: 5/10/23 4:47 PM (GMT+01:00)To: friam@redfish.comSubject: Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical systemI haven't read Anatomy of Fascism. But one of the things I worry about, even though I make my career from it, is arguing by analogy. It sounds like Paxton is attempting to essentialize fascism. Is that the case? We've explored, a bit on this list, some problems with essentialism and reductionism. While it's good to de-universalize a concept (because if it applies everywhere, then it's not useful), that specifi
Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system
Thanks. I'm still concerned it sounds more like diagnostic criteria from, say, the DSM-V than something that could be axiomatically generated in a simulation. My guess is, as relatively specific as it is (compared to say Eco's Ur-Fascism), it's too robust a (set of) phenomena. I.e. the space of possible generators that can generate Fascism, as defined, is computationally too huge to make any kind of constructive project feasible. If that's the case, then by talking about it as a dynamical system, you'd need to commit to allowing at least some structural features of the dynamical system remain *latent*, occult, never understandable except through indirect markers. Perhaps *some* mechanisms could be built (e.g. violence). So you'd have a composite system, one part opaque oracle (perhaps with randomly generated mechanisms) and one part axiomatic. On 5/10/23 14:19, Jochen Fromm wrote: Yes, Robert Paxton tries to describe the essence of fascism in his book. While Hannah Arendt and Erich Fromm described fascism in Germany, and Stanley G. Payne is an expert for fascism in Spain, Robert Paxton is an expert for fascism in France during German occupation in WW II. He argues that it can reach different stages, just like the 5 stages of cancer in various degrees of severity. Chapter 2 to 6 in Paxton's book are dedicated to the 5 stages. Each chapter describes one stage, and one stage is a prerequisite for the next. The 5 stages are: (1) the creation of movements (2) their rooting in the political system (3) their seizure of power (4) the exercise of power (5) radicalization For the 1st stage, the creation of movements, he describes in chapter 2 a set of mobilizing passions which are "the emotional lava that set fascism’s foundations": from "a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions" to "the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external". In the final chapter 8 Paxton finally gives a definition of fascism and argues that "fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion". He argues that violence is a important hallmark of fascism: "the legitimation of violence against a demonized internal enemy brings us close to the heart of fascism" and that it would be "a phenomenon of failed democracies". -J. Original message From: glen Date: 5/10/23 4:47 PM (GMT+01:00) To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system I haven't read Anatomy of Fascism. But one of the things I worry about, even though I make my career from it, is arguing by analogy. It sounds like Paxton is attempting to essentialize fascism. Is that the case? We've explored, a bit on this list, some problems with essentialism and reductionism. While it's good to de-universalize a concept (because if it applies everywhere, then it's not useful), that specificity in denotation (e.g. Islamists not being fascist) can be made observationally or constructively/axiomatically. In alignment with Feynman, if you can't construct the phenomenon, then you don't understand it. Of course, I know Paxton can't (and wouldn't) construct a fascist society. That's why simulation is a good thing. 8^D But does Anatomy of Fascism read as a recipe, a how-to? Or is it more like a collection of observational case studies? On 5/10/23 03:41, Jochen Fromm wrote: > I don't know much about South Africa but one direction towards higher stages of Paxton's fascism scale is certainly democratic backsliding. Democratic backsliding can happen if a country is in a deep crisis and has a "strongman" leader which longs to stay in power. Orban in Hungary, Erdoğan in Turkey and Netanyahu in Israel have eroded democracy in their countries because they wanted to stay in power at all costs. Ruth Ben-Ghiat wrote about it in her book "Strongmen" [1]. > > The more interesting aspect is to view it as a disorder of the system. Already Plato considered tyranny as a disease and disorder of a state [2]. He defined a tyrant as a person who rules without law, using extreme and cruel methods against both his own people and others. In a tyranny, the city is enslaved to the tyrant, who is in turn a slave to his desires and uses his guards to remove social elements and individuals that pose a threat to retain power. He will also provoke warfare to
Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system
I tend to favor evolutionary explanations for human behavior. Paxton's analysis characterizes Putin's actions as part of a fascist process, involving the interaction of a mass movement, a charismatic leader, and a complicit elite. Putin has cultivated a devoted following around his persona and his political party, United Russia, which dominates the political system and suppresses any opposition. He has exploited the sense of crisis and humiliation following the Soviet Union's collapse, promoting a nationalist and conservative agenda that resonates with many Russians. Putin has demonstrated disdain for democratic norms and human rights, employing violence and intimidation against his critics and opponents. He has also intervened militarily in neighboring countries, including Georgia, Ukraine, and Syria, to assert Russia's interests and influence. >From an evolutionary perspective, Putin's behavior exemplifies intergroup aggression or coalitional violence, which are forms of hostility or violence between groups or coalitions of individuals. Putin has formed a group based on shared identity or interests, such as Russian ethnicity, culture, or religion, and has competed with other groups for resources or status, such as land, oil, or power. He has also employed psychological mechanisms, such as ingroup bias, outgroup derogation, or dehumanization, to rationalize and facilitate his aggression towards other groups. He has also cooperated and coordinated with others based on shared objectives or values, such as security, stability, or sovereignty, using violence or threats as a means of achieving them. Additionally, he has adhered to cultural norms, such as honor, loyalty, or revenge, to regulate and motivate his violence against other coalitions. These two perspectives may complement or conflict with one another in various ways. For example, Paxton's perspective may underscore the role of ideology and politics in Putin's behavior, while evolutionary perspectives may focus on the biological and psychological factors underlying Putin's actions. Paxton's view may also center on the contextual and historical factors shaping Putin's actions, while evolutionary perspectives may focus on the general and universal factors influencing Putin's actions. Paxton's outlook may offer a more critical and normative evaluation of Putin's actions, whereas evolutionary perspectives may provide a more descriptive and explanatory account of Putin's actions. On Thu, 11 May 2023 at 05:12, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Emotional lava at a lower temperature is rock. Fascism aims to create a > rock, not lava -- the fascia that ties many into one immutable, > controllable entity. Organizations and communities reduce mixing -- some > folks are in, some folks are out. These "solids" should at least be > porous, or they are unfair and exclusionary. Better to keep a society in > liquid form to the extent possible. > -- > *From:* Friam on behalf of Prof David West < > profw...@fastmail.fm> > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 10, 2023 6:33 PM > *To:* friam@redfish.com > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system > > Once upon a time, I was a card carrying (metaphorically) bomb making > (literally), persecuted (FBI and CIA in Japan) revolutionary. > > I was also an acid head, free love, hippy. > > The "card carrying" part denotes my membership in / participation in a > "movement." The Paxton quote you shared — > the creation of movements, he describes in chapter 2 a set of mobilizing > passions which are "the emotional lava that set fascism’s foundations": > from "a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional > solutions" to "the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that > justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, > both internal and external" — would certainly apply to that movement. > United states, circa 1964-1972. > > To the extent that my observation is 'valid'; and the quote is > representative of Paxton (have not read) then all movements are fascist > whether they originated from the "left" or the "right." > > davew > > On Wed, May 10, 2023, at 3:19 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: > > Yes, Robert Paxton tries to describe the essence of fascism in his book. > While Hannah Arendt and Erich Fromm described fascism in Germany, and > Stanley G. Payne is an expert for fascism in Spain, Robert Paxton is an > expert for fascism in France during German occupation in WW II. He argues > that it can reach different stages, just like the 5 stages of cancer in > various degrees of severity. > > Chapter 2 to 6 in Paxton's book are dedicated to the 5 stages. Each > chapter describes one stage, and one stage is a prerequisite for the next
Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system
Emotional lava at a lower temperature is rock. Fascism aims to create a rock, not lava -- the fascia that ties many into one immutable, controllable entity. Organizations and communities reduce mixing -- some folks are in, some folks are out. These "solids" should at least be porous, or they are unfair and exclusionary. Better to keep a society in liquid form to the extent possible. From: Friam on behalf of Prof David West Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2023 6:33 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system Once upon a time, I was a card carrying (metaphorically) bomb making (literally), persecuted (FBI and CIA in Japan) revolutionary. I was also an acid head, free love, hippy. The "card carrying" part denotes my membership in / participation in a "movement." The Paxton quote you shared — the creation of movements, he describes in chapter 2 a set of mobilizing passions which are "the emotional lava that set fascism’s foundations": from "a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions" to "the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external" — would certainly apply to that movement. United states, circa 1964-1972. To the extent that my observation is 'valid'; and the quote is representative of Paxton (have not read) then all movements are fascist whether they originated from the "left" or the "right." davew On Wed, May 10, 2023, at 3:19 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: Yes, Robert Paxton tries to describe the essence of fascism in his book. While Hannah Arendt and Erich Fromm described fascism in Germany, and Stanley G. Payne is an expert for fascism in Spain, Robert Paxton is an expert for fascism in France during German occupation in WW II. He argues that it can reach different stages, just like the 5 stages of cancer in various degrees of severity. Chapter 2 to 6 in Paxton's book are dedicated to the 5 stages. Each chapter describes one stage, and one stage is a prerequisite for the next. The 5 stages are: (1) the creation of movements (2) their rooting in the political system (3) their seizure of power (4) the exercise of power (5) radicalization For the 1st stage, the creation of movements, he describes in chapter 2 a set of mobilizing passions which are "the emotional lava that set fascism’s foundations": from "a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions" to "the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external". In the final chapter 8 Paxton finally gives a definition of fascism and argues that "fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion". He argues that violence is a important hallmark of fascism: "the legitimation of violence against a demonized internal enemy brings us close to the heart of fascism" and that it would be "a phenomenon of failed democracies". -J. ---- Original message From: glen Date: 5/10/23 4:47 PM (GMT+01:00) To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system I haven't read Anatomy of Fascism. But one of the things I worry about, even though I make my career from it, is arguing by analogy. It sounds like Paxton is attempting to essentialize fascism. Is that the case? We've explored, a bit on this list, some problems with essentialism and reductionism. While it's good to de-universalize a concept (because if it applies everywhere, then it's not useful), that specificity in denotation (e.g. Islamists not being fascist) can be made observationally or constructively/axiomatically. In alignment with Feynman, if you can't construct the phenomenon, then you don't understand it. Of course, I know Paxton can't (and wouldn't) construct a fascist society. That's why simulation is a good thing. 8^D But does Anatomy of Fascism read as a recipe, a how-to? Or is it more like a collection of observational case studies? On 5/10/23 03:41, Jochen Fromm wrote: > I don't know much about South Africa but one direction towards higher stages > of Paxton's fascism scale is certainly democratic backsliding. Democratic > backsliding can happen if a country is in a deep cris
Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system
Once upon a time, I was a card carrying (metaphorically) bomb making (literally), persecuted (FBI and CIA in Japan) revolutionary. I was also an acid head, free love, hippy. The "card carrying" part denotes my membership in / participation in a "movement." The Paxton quote you shared — the creation of movements, he describes in chapter 2 a set of mobilizing passions which are "the emotional lava that set fascism’s foundations": from "a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions" to "the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external" — would certainly apply to that movement. United states, circa 1964-1972. To the extent that my observation is 'valid'; and the quote is representative of Paxton (have not read) then all movements are fascist whether they originated from the "left" or the "right." davew On Wed, May 10, 2023, at 3:19 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: > Yes, Robert Paxton tries to describe the essence of fascism in his book. > While Hannah Arendt and Erich Fromm described fascism in Germany, and Stanley > G. Payne is an expert for fascism in Spain, Robert Paxton is an expert for > fascism in France during German occupation in WW II. He argues that it can > reach different stages, just like the 5 stages of cancer in various degrees > of severity. > > Chapter 2 to 6 in Paxton's book are dedicated to the 5 stages. Each chapter > describes one stage, and one stage is a prerequisite for the next. The 5 > stages are: > (1) the creation of movements > (2) their rooting in the political system > (3) their seizure of power > (4) the exercise of power > (5) radicalization > > For the 1st stage, the creation of movements, he describes in chapter 2 a set > of mobilizing passions which are "the emotional lava that set fascism’s > foundations": from "a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any > traditional solutions" to "the belief that one’s group is a victim, a > sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against > its enemies, both internal and external". > > In the final chapter 8 Paxton finally gives a definition of fascism and > argues that "fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by > obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood > and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based > party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective > collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and > pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints > goals of internal cleansing and external expansion". > > He argues that violence is a important hallmark of fascism: "the legitimation > of violence against a demonized internal enemy brings us close to the heart > of fascism" and that it would be "a phenomenon of failed democracies". > > -J. > > > Original message > From: glen > Date: 5/10/23 4:47 PM (GMT+01:00) > To: friam@redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system > > I haven't read Anatomy of Fascism. But one of the things I worry about, even > though I make my career from it, is arguing by analogy. It sounds like Paxton > is attempting to essentialize fascism. Is that the case? We've explored, a > bit on this list, some problems with essentialism and reductionism. While > it's good to de-universalize a concept (because if it applies everywhere, > then it's not useful), that specificity in denotation (e.g. Islamists not > being fascist) can be made observationally or constructively/axiomatically. > In alignment with Feynman, if you can't construct the phenomenon, then you > don't understand it. > > Of course, I know Paxton can't (and wouldn't) construct a fascist society. > That's why simulation is a good thing. 8^D But does Anatomy of Fascism read > as a recipe, a how-to? Or is it more like a collection of observational case > studies? > > On 5/10/23 03:41, Jochen Fromm wrote: > > I don't know much about South Africa but one direction towards higher > > stages of Paxton's fascism scale is certainly democratic backsliding. > > Democratic backsliding can happen if a country is in a deep crisis and has > > a "strongman" leader which longs to stay in power. Orban in Hungary, > > Erdoğan in Turkey and Netanyahu in Israel have eroded democracy in their > > countries because they wanted to stay in power at all costs. Ruth Ben-Ghiat > > wro
Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system
Yes, Robert Paxton tries to describe the essence of fascism in his book. While Hannah Arendt and Erich Fromm described fascism in Germany, and Stanley G. Payne is an expert for fascism in Spain, Robert Paxton is an expert for fascism in France during German occupation in WW II. He argues that it can reach different stages, just like the 5 stages of cancer in various degrees of severity. Chapter 2 to 6 in Paxton's book are dedicated to the 5 stages. Each chapter describes one stage, and one stage is a prerequisite for the next. The 5 stages are:(1) the creation of movements(2) their rooting in the political system(3) their seizure of power(4) the exercise of power (5) radicalization For the 1st stage, the creation of movements, he describes in chapter 2 a set of mobilizing passions which are "the emotional lava that set fascism’s foundations": from "a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond the reach of any traditional solutions" to "the belief that one’s group is a victim, a sentiment that justifies any action, without legal or moral limits, against its enemies, both internal and external".In the final chapter 8 Paxton finally gives a definition of fascism and argues that "fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion".He argues that violence is a important hallmark of fascism: "the legitimation of violence against a demonized internal enemy brings us close to the heart of fascism" and that it would be "a phenomenon of failed democracies".-J. Original message From: glen Date: 5/10/23 4:47 PM (GMT+01:00) To: friam@redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system I haven't read Anatomy of Fascism. But one of the things I worry about, even though I make my career from it, is arguing by analogy. It sounds like Paxton is attempting to essentialize fascism. Is that the case? We've explored, a bit on this list, some problems with essentialism and reductionism. While it's good to de-universalize a concept (because if it applies everywhere, then it's not useful), that specificity in denotation (e.g. Islamists not being fascist) can be made observationally or constructively/axiomatically. In alignment with Feynman, if you can't construct the phenomenon, then you don't understand it.Of course, I know Paxton can't (and wouldn't) construct a fascist society. That's why simulation is a good thing. 8^D But does Anatomy of Fascism read as a recipe, a how-to? Or is it more like a collection of observational case studies?On 5/10/23 03:41, Jochen Fromm wrote:> I don't know much about South Africa but one direction towards higher stages of Paxton's fascism scale is certainly democratic backsliding. Democratic backsliding can happen if a country is in a deep crisis and has a "strongman" leader which longs to stay in power. Orban in Hungary, Erdoğan in Turkey and Netanyahu in Israel have eroded democracy in their countries because they wanted to stay in power at all costs. Ruth Ben-Ghiat wrote about it in her book "Strongmen" [1].> > The more interesting aspect is to view it as a disorder of the system. Already Plato considered tyranny as a disease and disorder of a state [2]. He defined a tyrant as a person who rules without law, using extreme and cruel methods against both his own people and others. In a tyranny, the city is enslaved to the tyrant, who is in turn a slave to his desires and uses his guards to remove social elements and individuals that pose a threat to retain power. He will also provoke warfare to consolidate his position as leader. Aristotle says tyranny is a selfish rule by a single individual: "tyranny is a kind of monarchy which has in view the interest of the monarch only" [2]. He describes it as "arbitrary power of an individual which is responsible to no one, and governs all alike, whether equals or better, with a view to is own advantage, not to that of its subjects, and therefore against their will."> > Obviously it makes a difference if a country is ruled by a dictator or not. Milan Svolik says tyrants and dictators live in constant fear they will be overthrown and rely on a number of allies to govern [3]: "All dictators face threats from the masses, and I call the political problem of balancing against the majority excluded from power the problem of authoritarian control. Yet dictators rarely control enough resources to preclude such challenges
Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system
I haven't read Anatomy of Fascism. But one of the things I worry about, even though I make my career from it, is arguing by analogy. It sounds like Paxton is attempting to essentialize fascism. Is that the case? We've explored, a bit on this list, some problems with essentialism and reductionism. While it's good to de-universalize a concept (because if it applies everywhere, then it's not useful), that specificity in denotation (e.g. Islamists not being fascist) can be made observationally or constructively/axiomatically. In alignment with Feynman, if you can't construct the phenomenon, then you don't understand it. Of course, I know Paxton can't (and wouldn't) construct a fascist society. That's why simulation is a good thing. 8^D But does Anatomy of Fascism read as a recipe, a how-to? Or is it more like a collection of observational case studies? On 5/10/23 03:41, Jochen Fromm wrote: I don't know much about South Africa but one direction towards higher stages of Paxton's fascism scale is certainly democratic backsliding. Democratic backsliding can happen if a country is in a deep crisis and has a "strongman" leader which longs to stay in power. Orban in Hungary, Erdoğan in Turkey and Netanyahu in Israel have eroded democracy in their countries because they wanted to stay in power at all costs. Ruth Ben-Ghiat wrote about it in her book "Strongmen" [1]. The more interesting aspect is to view it as a disorder of the system. Already Plato considered tyranny as a disease and disorder of a state [2]. He defined a tyrant as a person who rules without law, using extreme and cruel methods against both his own people and others. In a tyranny, the city is enslaved to the tyrant, who is in turn a slave to his desires and uses his guards to remove social elements and individuals that pose a threat to retain power. He will also provoke warfare to consolidate his position as leader. Aristotle says tyranny is a selfish rule by a single individual: "tyranny is a kind of monarchy which has in view the interest of the monarch only" [2]. He describes it as "arbitrary power of an individual which is responsible to no one, and governs all alike, whether equals or better, with a view to is own advantage, not to that of its subjects, and therefore against their will." Obviously it makes a difference if a country is ruled by a dictator or not. Milan Svolik says tyrants and dictators live in constant fear they will be overthrown and rely on a number of allies to govern [3]: "All dictators face threats from the masses, and I call the political problem of balancing against the majority excluded from power the problem of authoritarian control. Yet dictators rarely control enough resources to preclude such challenges on their own - they therefore rule with a number of allies, whether they be traditional elites, prominent party members, or generals in charge of repression. A second, separate political conflict arises [...] the problem of authoritarian power-sharing" -J. [1] Ruth Ben-Ghiat, Strongmen https://wwnorton.com/books/strongmen [2] Robert Boesche, Theories of Tyranny, The Pennsylvania State University Press, 1996 [3] Milan W. Svolik, The politics of authoritarian rule, Cambridge University Press, 2012 Original message From: Pieter Steenekamp Date: 5/10/23 9:25 AM (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system We're facing a difficult situation in South Africa. The upcoming BRICS summit in Cape Town, scheduled for August 22-24, includes an invitation to Putin. However, the International Criminal Court has issued a warrant for his arrest due to allegations of illicit dealings with Ukrainian children. As a signatory of the ICC, South Africa is technically obligated to detain him if he appears. While we enjoyed a positive reputation during Mandela's presidency, the country faced significant setbacks under Jacob Zuma's leadership. The current president, Cyril Rhamaphosa, appears to lack power. Well, lacking power could mean we might rate very low according to Paxton, which is a good thing? On Tue, 9 May 2023 at 23:20, Jochen Fromm mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote: In Putin's speech on victory day today he argued that Russia is again fighting against fascism while the country clearly shows increasingly signs of fascism itself: from the angry dictator and the dread of the nation's decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism to the overwhelming feeling of victimhood almost all of the mobilizing passions defined by Robert Paxton were present. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Fascism <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Fascism> Even Prigozhin's Wagner group reminds me of the Waffen-SS during the time of Nazism: an armed combat branch of the organization that
Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system
I don't know much about South Africa but one direction towards higher stages of Paxton's fascism scale is certainly democratic backsliding. Democratic backsliding can happen if a country is in a deep crisis and has a "strongman" leader which longs to stay in power. Orban in Hungary, Erdoğan in Turkey and Netanyahu in Israel have eroded democracy in their countries because they wanted to stay in power at all costs. Ruth Ben-Ghiat wrote about it in her book "Strongmen" [1].The more interesting aspect is to view it as a disorder of the system. Already Plato considered tyranny as a disease and disorder of a state [2]. He defined a tyrant as a person who rules without law, using extreme and cruel methods against both his own people and others. In a tyranny, the city is enslaved to the tyrant, who is in turn a slave to his desires and uses his guards to remove social elements and individuals that pose a threat to retain power. He will also provoke warfare to consolidate his position as leader. Aristotle says tyranny is a selfish rule by a single individual: "tyranny is a kind of monarchy which has in view the interest of the monarch only" [2]. He describes it as "arbitrary power of an individual which is responsible to no one, and governs all alike, whether equals or better, with a view to is own advantage, not to that of its subjects, and therefore against their will."Obviously it makes a difference if a country is ruled by a dictator or not. Milan Svolik says tyrants and dictators live in constant fear they will be overthrown and rely on a number of allies to govern [3]: "All dictators face threats from the masses, and I call the political problem of balancing against the majority excluded from power the problem of authoritarian control. Yet dictators rarely control enough resources to preclude such challenges on their own - they therefore rule with a number of allies, whether they be traditional elites, prominent party members, or generals in charge of repression. A second, separate political conflict arises [...] the problem of authoritarian power-sharing"-J.[1] Ruth Ben-Ghiat, Strongmenhttps://wwnorton.com/books/strongmen[2] Robert Boesche, Theories of Tyranny, The Pennsylvania State University Press, 1996[3] Milan W. Svolik, The politics of authoritarian rule, Cambridge University Press, 2012 Original message From: Pieter Steenekamp Date: 5/10/23 9:25 AM (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system We're facing a difficult situation in South Africa. The upcoming BRICS summit in Cape Town, scheduled for August 22-24, includes an invitation to Putin. However, the International Criminal Court has issued a warrant for his arrest due to allegations of illicit dealings with Ukrainian children. As a signatory of the ICC, South Africa is technically obligated to detain him if he appears. While we enjoyed a positive reputation during Mandela's presidency, the country faced significant setbacks under Jacob Zuma's leadership. The current president, Cyril Rhamaphosa, appears to lack power. Well, lacking power could mean we might rate very low according to Paxton, which is a good thing?On Tue, 9 May 2023 at 23:20, Jochen Fromm wrote:In Putin's speech on victory day today he argued that Russia is again fighting against fascism while the country clearly shows increasingly signs of fascism itself: from the angry dictator and the dread of the nation's decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism to the overwhelming feeling of victimhood almost all of the mobilizing passions defined by Robert Paxton were present.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_FascismEven Prigozhin's Wagner group reminds me of the Waffen-SS during the time of Nazism: an armed combat branch of the organization that is responsible for the protection of the dictator which acts in competition to the regular armed forces and is known for war crimes and extreme brutality. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/09/putin-recycles-old-grievances-on-victory-day-as-russian-army-battered-in-ukraineI'm interested in understanding this complex process of social evolution where a country falls back into dark ages in terms of dynamical systems. Why are the structures always so similar? Why does Paxton's final stage five almost always end in war, violence and invasion of other countries? Luckily Trump only reached Paxton's stage three - and hopefully the conviction today will prevent that he is coming back...-J.-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
Re: [FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system
We're facing a difficult situation in South Africa. The upcoming BRICS summit in Cape Town, scheduled for August 22-24, includes an invitation to Putin. However, the International Criminal Court has issued a warrant for his arrest due to allegations of illicit dealings with Ukrainian children. As a signatory of the ICC, South Africa is technically obligated to detain him if he appears. While we enjoyed a positive reputation during Mandela's presidency, the country faced significant setbacks under Jacob Zuma's leadership. The current president, Cyril Rhamaphosa, appears to lack power. Well, lacking power could mean we might rate very low according to Paxton, which is a good thing? On Tue, 9 May 2023 at 23:20, Jochen Fromm wrote: > In Putin's speech on victory day today he argued that Russia is again > fighting against fascism while the country clearly shows increasingly signs > of fascism itself: from the angry dictator and the dread of the nation's > decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism to the > overwhelming feeling of victimhood almost all of the mobilizing passions > defined by Robert Paxton were present. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_Fascism > > Even Prigozhin's Wagner group reminds me of the Waffen-SS during the time > of Nazism: an armed combat branch of the organization that is responsible > for the protection of the dictator which acts in competition to the regular > armed forces and is known for war crimes and extreme brutality. > > https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/09/putin-recycles-old-grievances-on-victory-day-as-russian-army-battered-in-ukraine > > I'm interested in understanding this complex process of social evolution > where a country falls back into dark ages in terms of dynamical systems. > Why are the structures always so similar? Why does Paxton's final stage > five almost always end in war, violence and invasion of other countries? > Luckily Trump only reached Paxton's stage three - and hopefully the > conviction today will prevent that he is coming back... > > -J. > > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
[FRIAM] Paxton's stages as a dynamical system
In Putin's speech on victory day today he argued that Russia is again fighting against fascism while the country clearly shows increasingly signs of fascism itself: from the angry dictator and the dread of the nation's decline under the corrosive effects of individualistic liberalism to the overwhelming feeling of victimhood almost all of the mobilizing passions defined by Robert Paxton were present.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anatomy_of_FascismEven Prigozhin's Wagner group reminds me of the Waffen-SS during the time of Nazism: an armed combat branch of the organization that is responsible for the protection of the dictator which acts in competition to the regular armed forces and is known for war crimes and extreme brutality. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/09/putin-recycles-old-grievances-on-victory-day-as-russian-army-battered-in-ukraineI'm interested in understanding this complex process of social evolution where a country falls back into dark ages in terms of dynamical systems. Why are the structures always so similar? Why does Paxton's final stage five almost always end in war, violence and invasion of other countries? Luckily Trump only reached Paxton's stage three - and hopefully the conviction today will prevent that he is coming back...-J.-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom https://bit.ly/virtualfriam to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
