Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-24 Thread Alfredo Covaleda Vélez 
Tom

In Argentina and Uruguay Y is pronounced almost like your sh in shopping.
In general in Colombia there isn´t difference in the pronunciation of LL an
Y.


2014-02-23 23:40 GMT-05:00 Tom Johnson t...@jtjohnson.com:

 Well, since we've gone this far...

 I have yet to land on a singular pronunciation of yo.. It can vary from
 the hard Y as in Joe to yo like yo-yo.
 My preliminary observation: the farther south one goes in LatAm, the
 harder/stronger the y, as in Joe.  But better data is clearly needed.
 I wonder if linguists have done any mapping of Spanish as has been done for
 American usages?
 -TJ
 On Feb 23, 2014 6:50 PM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote:

  On 2/23/14 6:36 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

  Xavier and Xalapa come to mind.   Both those xs are pronounced like
 h.

 and Mehico!


 
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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-24 Thread lrudolph 
Nick,

Don't apologize--take the tack that Wayne O'Neil took in his lexicographic 
introduction to (at least the first edition of) the American Heritage 
dictionary: 
English spelling includes a *lot* of useful information about the history and
otherwise-hidden relationships of our words.  (I'd quote some examples but all 
our copies of that dictionary are on another floor and I'm too lazy at the 
moment.)
Teach the kids that spelling is a fascinating key to hidden history!  I'm sure
they're smart enough to catch on to that, given the hint.  Make it a game!

As to blatant irrationality: 

English orthography is only irrational if (as you, despite my urgings, appear
to continue to believe) the single measure of rationality is faithfully 
reflects 
pronunciation--meaning *your* pronunciation and not necessarily that of the 
guys in 
the next state, or the previous half-millennium.  Think of all those dropped 
Rs
that most of our fellow Massachusettsians have in their non-rhotic speech: would
you really want your grandchildren to drop the rs from their spelling when and
if they move to the East Coast?  What about the wh digraph?  In my dialect, 
the
first sound in words like what and when is aspirated (and the written h 
shows that the dialect of the people who froze English spelling was, in that
respect, like mine--though now that aspiration is quite rare): what/watt 
and 
when/wen are so-called minimal pairs in my speech.  Witch side, in your
model of rationality, whins that match? ... And so on for all the many other 
examples in all the many other dialects.

I admit that there are cases where more phonetic spelling would elucidate
facts about English grammar that are largely obscure.  For instance, there are
*two* verbs have in English (historically, of course, they're one verb):
the auxiliary have is pronounced either v (as in I've been there) or
haff (as in I have to go now), while the true verb meaning possess is
pronounced havv (as in I havv three copies of the American Heritage 
Dictionary).  Similar statements apply to used and other auxiliaries.
Would *that* group of spelling reforms make you happier or sadder?

 Lee, 
 
 I just want to be able to teach my grandchildren to write and spell without
 having to apologize every third sentence for the blatant irrationality of
 the language they are learning.  
 
 N
 
 Nicholas S. Thompson
 Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
 Clark University
 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
 
 -Original Message-
 From: lrudo...@meganet.net [mailto:lrudo...@meganet.net] 
 Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 6:57 PM
 To: Nick Thompson; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
 Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames
 
 Nick asks:
 
  How come other people can standardize their spellings and we can't 
  standardize ours.
  
   
  
  Damn!
 
 Well, in the first place, the case of actual Spanish-as-she-is-spoke,
 including all its dialectal differences, isn't quite as clean as the
 official Castilian standard that Frank has cited.  For instance, Galician is
 (I am assured) mutually intelligible with Portuguese (specifically, the
 dialect of Portuguese spoken in the nearby parts of Portugal), and
 Portuguese is famous for the difficulty of decoding the written language
 into (any of the many and various dialects of) the spoken language.  
 
 In the second place, two desiderata are incompatible.  It is evidently
 desirable to many, including you, Nick, to be able to have a written
 language that encodes the spoken language in a faithful manner.  But it is
 also desirable to many (including, I hope, you) to be able to read texts
 written in one's language in earlier periods, when the pronunciation is
 *very* likely to have been (often, *very*) different.  In one European
 country (I forget which one; it was either the Netherlands or one of the
 continental Scandinavian countries) a fairly recent spelling reform,
 designed to fulfil the first desideratum, reportedly made texts from even a
 hundred years ago totally unreadable (in their original form) by modern
 schoolchildren.
 We can at least recognize Shakespeare--and certainly Dickens!--as writing in
 something like our English, even if many of his rhymes and jokes don't work
 for us.  (Busy as a bee was a better joke when busy was pronounced as
 we'd pronounce buzzy.)
 
 




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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-24 Thread Frank Wimberly 
Alfredo,

 

Unfortunately, most documents in the U.S., including newspapers, social
security cards, etc., omit the accents and tildes.  I suspect that the New
Mexico driver’s license of my friend Iván Ordóñez says “Ivan Ordonez”.  I
wonder whether the New York Times follows this tradition.  Do you know, Tom?

 

Frank 

 

 

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz

Santa Fe, NM 87505

 

 mailto:wimber...@gmail.com wimber...@gmail.com
mailto:wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Alfredo Covaleda
Vélez
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 7:14 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

 

Frank

 

The X in Ximena, for example sounds in sapnish like a J, wich is your h in
hill, for example. 

 

Don´t forget the rules of the tilde and the accents. For example Chávez and
Chaves have the accent in the first syllable.  The Spain in América Latina,
in general, has lost difference between the s and the z, and for this reason
Chávez and Chaves sound the same. Something similar occurs with González and
Gonzales, Both have accent in the same syllable. 

 

2014-02-23 20:36 GMT-05:00 Frank Wimberly wimber...@gmail.com:

Xavier and Xalapa come to mind.   Both those “x”s are pronounced like “h”.

 

Frank

 

 

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz

Santa Fe, NM 87505

 

 mailto:wimber...@gmail.com wimber...@gmail.com
mailto:wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Arlo Barnes
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 6:23 PM


To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

 

Thank you. I suspected it would be something like this; it seems also this
region picked up a slight excess of Xs from Mexico, which are pronounced
like Js (or like Hs in English), although I must say I am at an unfortunate
loss to call any to memory besides Me`xico itself.
EDIT: Well, we do standardize/ise on chile, while others do not...
-Arlo James Barnes



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-24 Thread Alfredo Covaleda Vélez 
Yes, and you always use the accent in the first syllable.


2014-02-24 11:30 GMT-05:00 Frank Wimberly wimber...@gmail.com:

 Alfredo,



 Unfortunately, most documents in the U.S., including newspapers, social
 security cards, etc., omit the accents and tildes.  I suspect that the New
 Mexico driver's license of my friend Iván Ordóñez says Ivan Ordonez.  I
 wonder whether the New York Times follows this tradition.  Do you know, Tom?



 Frank





 Frank C. Wimberly

 140 Calle Ojo Feliz

 Santa Fe, NM 87505



 wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

 Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918



 *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Alfredo
 Covaleda Vélez
 *Sent:* Sunday, February 23, 2014 7:14 PM

 *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
 *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames



 Frank



 The X in Ximena, for example sounds in sapnish like a J, wich is your h in
 hill, for example.



 Don´t forget the rules of the tilde and the accents. For example Chávez
 and Chaves have the accent in the first syllable.  The Spain in América
 Latina, in general, has lost difference between the s and the z, and for
 this reason Chávez and Chaves sound the same. Something similar occurs with
 González and Gonzales, Both have accent in the same syllable.



 2014-02-23 20:36 GMT-05:00 Frank Wimberly wimber...@gmail.com:

 Xavier and Xalapa come to mind.   Both those xs are pronounced like h.



 Frank





 Frank C. Wimberly

 140 Calle Ojo Feliz

 Santa Fe, NM 87505



 wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

 Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918



 *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Arlo
 Barnes
 *Sent:* Sunday, February 23, 2014 6:23 PM


 *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group

 *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames



 Thank you. I suspected it would be something like this; it seems also this
 region picked up a slight excess of Xs from Mexico, which are pronounced
 like Js (or like Hs in English), although I must say I am at an unfortunate
 loss to call any to memory besides Me`xico itself.
 EDIT: Well, we do standardize/ise on chile, while others do not...
 -Arlo James Barnes


 
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
 to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com



 
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 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Frank Wimberly 
Spelling of certain surnames (apellidos) in Spanish wasn't standardized
until after New Mexico was colonized by Spain.  There are only a few
spelling ambiguities that are possible in Spanish:  soft c, s and z
are pretty much indistinguishable;  ll and y sound the same; h isn't
pronounced so you will sometimes see hormiga spelled as ormiga, for
example.  In New Mexico and certain other places you will see Gonzales,
Chaves, Sisneros, and Vasquez while in Mexico and Spain they are
almost always spelled Gonzalez, Chavez, Cisneros, and Vazquez.  There
are many other examples.

 

Frank

 

 

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz

Santa Fe, NM 87505

 

 mailto:wimber...@gmail.com wimber...@gmail.com
mailto:wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Arlo Barnes
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 2:48 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe New Mexican: Our View: For mayor, no perfect
choice

 

The rationale Dimas gave (in a Generation Next interview) is that he thinks
the public fora Bushe`e and Gonzales have been debating in (the usual
places, that is) are frequented predominantly by insiders, and not the
public at large. Apparently, he thinks the best way to contact the actual
public, then, is to flood the city with the physical equivalent of spam -
polycarbonate campaign signs. I cannot vote for mayor because I live outside
city limits (if you actually look at the boundaries, especially on the south
side, they can be pretty ragged), but I would love to see an art campaign
for defacing his (and others') posters - even his supporters could join in
with favorable modifications.

It seems like the main reason behind the (more extensive than one might
think?) feeling of 'no good choice' is that the main venues of discussion
have focussed on politics (like funding) rather than issues and
ideological/action history. Gonzales (Chrome suggested Gonzalez, is that
spelling more common internationally?) may be backed by big money, but more
important are the questions of whose big money, and if that will affect his
actions as possible mayor, and in which way.

-Arlo James Barnes


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Nick Thompson 
How come other people can standardize their spellings and we can't
standardize ours.  

 

Damn!

 

n

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 4:01 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

 

Spelling of certain surnames (apellidos) in Spanish wasn't standardized
until after New Mexico was colonized by Spain.  There are only a few
spelling ambiguities that are possible in Spanish:  soft c, s and z
are pretty much indistinguishable;  ll and y sound the same; h isn't
pronounced so you will sometimes see hormiga spelled as ormiga, for
example.  In New Mexico and certain other places you will see Gonzales,
Chaves, Sisneros, and Vasquez while in Mexico and Spain they are
almost always spelled Gonzalez, Chavez, Cisneros, and Vazquez.  There
are many other examples.

 

Frank

 

 

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz

Santa Fe, NM 87505

 

 mailto:wimber...@gmail.com wimber...@gmail.com
mailto:wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Arlo Barnes
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 2:48 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe New Mexican: Our View: For mayor, no perfect
choice

 

The rationale Dimas gave (in a Generation Next interview) is that he thinks
the public fora Bushe`e and Gonzales have been debating in (the usual
places, that is) are frequented predominantly by insiders, and not the
public at large. Apparently, he thinks the best way to contact the actual
public, then, is to flood the city with the physical equivalent of spam -
polycarbonate campaign signs. I cannot vote for mayor because I live outside
city limits (if you actually look at the boundaries, especially on the south
side, they can be pretty ragged), but I would love to see an art campaign
for defacing his (and others') posters - even his supporters could join in
with favorable modifications.

It seems like the main reason behind the (more extensive than one might
think?) feeling of 'no good choice' is that the main venues of discussion
have focussed on politics (like funding) rather than issues and
ideological/action history. Gonzales (Chrome suggested Gonzalez, is that
spelling more common internationally?) may be backed by big money, but more
important are the questions of whose big money, and if that will affect his
actions as possible mayor, and in which way.

-Arlo James Barnes


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Frank Wimberly 
It's called The Royal Academy. Do you want one? Seriously, there are a few variations in Spanish orthography and more in vocabulary from country to country.FrankSent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original Message Subject:Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish SurnamesFrom :Nick Thompson Date :Sun, 23-Feb-2014 18:12To :'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' CC :How come other people can standardize their spellings and we cant standardize ours. Damn!nNicholas S. ThompsonEmeritus Professor of Psychology and BiologyClark Universityhttp://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank WimberlySent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 4:01 PMTo: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'Subject: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish SurnamesSpelling of certain surnames (apellidos) in Spanish wasnt standardized until after New Mexico was colonized by Spain. There are only a few spelling ambiguities that are possible in Spanish: soft c, s and z are pretty much indistinguishable; ll and y sound the same; h isnt pronounced so you will sometimes see hormiga spelled as ormiga, for example. In New Mexico and certain other places you will see Gonzales, Chaves, Sisneros, and Vasquez while in Mexico and Spain they are almost always spelled Gonzalez, Chavez, Cisneros, and Vazquez. There are many other examples.FrankFrank C. Wimberly140 Calle Ojo FelizSanta Fe, NM 87505wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.eduPhone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Arlo BarnesSent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 2:48 PMTo: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee GroupSubject: Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe New Mexican: Our View: For mayor, no perfect choiceThe rationale Dimas gave (in a Generation Next interview) is that he thinks the public fora Bushe`e and Gonzales have been debating in (the usual places, that is) are frequented predominantly by insiders, and not the public at large. Apparently, he thinks the best way to contact the actual public, then, is to flood the city with the physical equivalent of spam - polycarbonate campaign signs. I cannot vote for mayor because I live outside city limits (if you actually look at the boundaries, especially on the south side, they can be pretty ragged), but I would love to see an art campaign for defacing his (and others') posters - even his supporters could join in with favorable modifications.It seems like the main reason behind the (more extensive than one might think?) feeling of 'no good choice' is that the main venues of discussion have focussed on politics (like funding) rather than issues and ideological/action history. Gonzales (Chrome suggested Gonzalez, is that spelling more common internationally?) may be backed by big money, but more important are the questions of whosebig money, and ifthat will affect his actions as possible mayor, and in which way.-Arlo James Barnes
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Frank Wimberly 
Xavier and Xalapa come to mind.   Both those xs are pronounced like h.

 

Frank

 

 

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz

Santa Fe, NM 87505

 

 mailto:wimber...@gmail.com wimber...@gmail.com
mailto:wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Arlo Barnes
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 6:23 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

 

Thank you. I suspected it would be something like this; it seems also this
region picked up a slight excess of Xs from Mexico, which are pronounced
like Js (or like Hs in English), although I must say I am at an unfortunate
loss to call any to memory besides Me`xico itself.
EDIT: Well, we do standardize/ise on chile, while others do not...
-Arlo James Barnes


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Steve Smith 

On 2/23/14 6:36 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:


Xavier and Xalapa come to mind.   Both those xs are pronounced like h.


and Mehico!


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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Arlo Barnes 
Those work. I think I was thinking of something else, but I will probably
just have to run across it in the wild again to remember.
I was going to say but forgot: C de Baca is one of my favorite local
surnames, because it is the only surname I know that has an abbreviation
baked in (for Cabeza, head; the name translates as 'head of the cow', which
I interpret [perhaps wrongly] as 'head of the herd' - a herder or leader.
And due to the [common across languages] B/V association, sometimes it is
spelled Vaca, hinting at common ancestry with German 'Vieh' and Latin
'pecus'). Another favorite with variant spelling (if only for one
generation) is Haozous/Houser.
-Arlo James Barnes

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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Tom Johnson 
Frank's comments on the sometimes and slight differences in the spelling of
Spanish last names led to the selection of many folks by the secretary of
state's office a couple years back as invalid voters because the same
person's name showed up with different spellings when comparing the voter
rolls and the driver's license registry, for example.

-tom johnson


On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Frank Wimberly wimber...@gmail.com wrote:

 Spelling of certain surnames (apellidos) in Spanish wasn't standardized
 until after New Mexico was colonized by Spain.  There are only a few
 spelling ambiguities that are possible in Spanish:  soft c, s and z
 are pretty much indistinguishable;  ll and y sound the same; h isn't
 pronounced so you will sometimes see hormiga spelled as ormiga, for
 example.  In New Mexico and certain other places you will see Gonzales,
 Chaves, Sisneros, and Vasquez while in Mexico and Spain they are
 almost always spelled Gonzalez, Chavez, Cisneros, and Vazquez.
 There are many other examples.



 Frank





 Frank C. Wimberly

 140 Calle Ojo Feliz

 Santa Fe, NM 87505



 wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

 Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918



 *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Arlo
 Barnes
 *Sent:* Sunday, February 23, 2014 2:48 PM
 *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
 *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe New Mexican: Our View: For mayor, no
 perfect choice



 The rationale Dimas gave (in a Generation Next interview) is that he
 thinks the public fora Bushe`e and Gonzales have been debating in (the
 usual places, that is) are frequented predominantly by insiders, and not
 the public at large. Apparently, he thinks the best way to contact the
 actual public, then, is to flood the city with the physical equivalent of
 spam - polycarbonate campaign signs. I cannot vote for mayor because I live
 outside city limits (if you actually look at the boundaries, especially on
 the south side, they can be pretty ragged), but I would love to see an art
 campaign for defacing his (and others') posters - even his supporters could
 join in with favorable modifications.

 It seems like the main reason behind the (more extensive than one might
 think?) feeling of 'no good choice' is that the main venues of discussion
 have focussed on politics (like funding) rather than issues and
 ideological/action history. Gonzales (Chrome suggested Gonzalez, is that
 spelling more common internationally?) may be backed by big money, but more
 important are the questions of *whose* big money, and *if* that will
 affect his actions as possible mayor, and *in which way*.

 -Arlo James Barnes

 
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
 to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com




-- 
==
J. T. Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --   Santa Fe, NM
USAhttp://www.analyticjournalism.com/
505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson
slideshare.net/jtjohnson/presentations
http://www.jtjohnson.com  t...@jtjohnson.com
==

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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread lrudolph 
Nick asks:

 How come other people can standardize their spellings and we can't
 standardize ours.  
 
  
 
 Damn!

Well, in the first place, the case of actual Spanish-as-she-is-spoke, including 
all its 
dialectal differences, isn't quite as clean as the official Castilian standard 
that Frank has 
cited.  For instance, Galician is (I am assured) mutually intelligible with 
Portuguese 
(specifically, the dialect of Portuguese spoken in the nearby parts of 
Portugal), and 
Portuguese is famous for the difficulty of decoding the written language into 
(any of the many 
and various dialects of) the spoken language.  

In the second place, two desiderata are incompatible.  It is evidently 
desirable to many, 
including you, Nick, to be able to have a written language that encodes the 
spoken language in 
a faithful manner.  But it is also desirable to many (including, I hope, you) 
to be able to 
read texts written in one's language in earlier periods, when the pronunciation 
is *very* 
likely to have been (often, *very*) different.  In one European country (I 
forget which one; 
it was either the Netherlands or one of the continental Scandinavian countries) 
a fairly 
recent spelling reform, designed to fulfil the first desideratum, reportedly 
made texts from 
even a hundred years ago totally unreadable (in their original form) by modern 
schoolchildren.
We can at least recognize Shakespeare--and certainly Dickens!--as writing in 
something like 
our English, even if many of his rhymes and jokes don't work for us.  (Busy as 
a bee was a 
better joke when busy was pronounced as we'd pronounce buzzy.)




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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Alfredo Covaleda Vélez 
Frank

The X in Ximena, for example sounds in sapnish like a J, wich is your h in
hill, for example.

Don´t forget the rules of the tilde and the accents. For example Chávez and
Chaves have the accent in the first syllable.  The Spain in América Latina,
in general, has lost difference between the s and the z, and for this
reason Chávez and Chaves sound the same. Something similar occurs with
González and Gonzales, Both have accent in the same syllable.


2014-02-23 20:36 GMT-05:00 Frank Wimberly wimber...@gmail.com:

 Xavier and Xalapa come to mind.   Both those xs are pronounced like h.



 Frank





 Frank C. Wimberly

 140 Calle Ojo Feliz

 Santa Fe, NM 87505



 wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

 Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918



 *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Arlo
 Barnes
 *Sent:* Sunday, February 23, 2014 6:23 PM

 *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
 *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames



 Thank you. I suspected it would be something like this; it seems also this
 region picked up a slight excess of Xs from Mexico, which are pronounced
 like Js (or like Hs in English), although I must say I am at an unfortunate
 loss to call any to memory besides Me`xico itself.
 EDIT: Well, we do standardize/ise on chile, while others do not...
 -Arlo James Barnes

 
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 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Gary Schiltz 
While we’re on this subject, I wonder how much regional difference there is in 
how differently “b” and “v” are pronounced in Spanish-speaking countries. Here 
in Ecuador, at least the campesinos (less educated country folks) pronounce 
them identically. For that reason, I very commonly see the same word spelled 
differently (baca or vaca, barilla or varilla). I believe that more educated 
folks tend to pronounce “v” more like in English, although much softer. How 
about in Spain?

Even in such a small country as Ecuador, there are many regional differences in 
pronunciation, for example in certain regions, double L is pronounced sort of 
like “jy”, i.e. llave is pronounced almost “JYAH-vay” or “ZHAH-vay, while in 
other regions, it is more “YA-vay”.

Gary

On Feb 23, 2014, at 9:14 PM, Alfredo Covaleda Vélez alfredocoval...@gmail.com 
wrote:

 Frank
 
 The X in Ximena, for example sounds in sapnish like a J, wich is your h in 
 hill, for example. 
 
 Don´t forget the rules of the tilde and the accents. For example Chávez and 
 Chaves have the accent in the first syllable.  The Spain in América Latina, 
 in general, has lost difference between the s and the z, and for this reason 
 Chávez and Chaves sound the same. Something similar occurs with González and 
 Gonzales, Both have accent in the same syllable. 
 
 
 2014-02-23 20:36 GMT-05:00 Frank Wimberly wimber...@gmail.com:
 Xavier and Xalapa come to mind.   Both those “x”s are pronounced like “h”.
 
  
 
 Frank



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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Alfredo Covaleda Vélez 
Frank

Almost a a rule, I think that almost all the surnames originated in Spain
bring accent in the penultimate syllable. If surname ends in S and accent
is at the penultimate syllable, forget the tilde. But when accent is at the
penultimate syllable and surname ends in Z, put the tilde. Both sound the
same.


2014-02-23 18:01 GMT-05:00 Frank Wimberly wimber...@gmail.com:

 Spelling of certain surnames (apellidos) in Spanish wasn't standardized
 until after New Mexico was colonized by Spain.  There are only a few
 spelling ambiguities that are possible in Spanish:  soft c, s and z
 are pretty much indistinguishable;  ll and y sound the same; h isn't
 pronounced so you will sometimes see hormiga spelled as ormiga, for
 example.  In New Mexico and certain other places you will see Gonzales,
 Chaves, Sisneros, and Vasquez while in Mexico and Spain they are
 almost always spelled Gonzalez, Chavez, Cisneros, and Vazquez.
 There are many other examples.



 Frank





 Frank C. Wimberly

 140 Calle Ojo Feliz

 Santa Fe, NM 87505



 wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

 Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918



 *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Arlo
 Barnes
 *Sent:* Sunday, February 23, 2014 2:48 PM
 *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
 *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe New Mexican: Our View: For mayor, no
 perfect choice



 The rationale Dimas gave (in a Generation Next interview) is that he
 thinks the public fora Bushe`e and Gonzales have been debating in (the
 usual places, that is) are frequented predominantly by insiders, and not
 the public at large. Apparently, he thinks the best way to contact the
 actual public, then, is to flood the city with the physical equivalent of
 spam - polycarbonate campaign signs. I cannot vote for mayor because I live
 outside city limits (if you actually look at the boundaries, especially on
 the south side, they can be pretty ragged), but I would love to see an art
 campaign for defacing his (and others') posters - even his supporters could
 join in with favorable modifications.

 It seems like the main reason behind the (more extensive than one might
 think?) feeling of 'no good choice' is that the main venues of discussion
 have focussed on politics (like funding) rather than issues and
 ideological/action history. Gonzales (Chrome suggested Gonzalez, is that
 spelling more common internationally?) may be backed by big money, but more
 important are the questions of *whose* big money, and *if* that will
 affect his actions as possible mayor, and *in which way*.

 -Arlo James Barnes

 
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
 to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com


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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Owen Densmore 
Hells bells, no difference than Europe in general.  Densmore, Dinsmore,
Dinsmuir, Dunsmore.  I'd be amazed if the European of us could not find
several variations.  I suspect we were late to the party.

   -- Owen

It began in various parts of the world at different times.
In England, surnames became generally hereditary during the 13th.and 14th.
centuries (1200 and 1300s) They mostly came about from a place of origin,
like Wood, Hill, Field, Sheffield or London, an occupation, like Smith,
Cook, Baker or Butcher, a personal relationship, William/son, John/son,
Thom/son, or with a prefix like Mac, or from a physical characteristic,
like Short, Strong, or Redhead. Some may even have taken the name of the
lord of the manor they were tied to.

Surnames began simply because there were just too many Tom's John's and
Williams, it became necessary to have another way to identify people,
instead of John the son of William the smith, it gradually became John
Smith, the son of William the smith, and although John Smith might have
been a farmer, he continued using his father's name, passing it down to his
son, and so on.

Otherwise it would have been George the cooper, son of John the farmer, son
of William the smith, etc.,etc. In addition, the wives names complicated
matters to an even greater degree, it was inevitable that a less
complicated system had to evolve.



On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Arlo Barnes arlo.bar...@gmail.com wrote:

 Those work. I think I was thinking of something else, but I will probably
 just have to run across it in the wild again to remember.
 I was going to say but forgot: C de Baca is one of my favorite local
 surnames, because it is the only surname I know that has an abbreviation
 baked in (for Cabeza, head; the name translates as 'head of the cow', which
 I interpret [perhaps wrongly] as 'head of the herd' - a herder or leader.
 And due to the [common across languages] B/V association, sometimes it is
 spelled Vaca, hinting at common ancestry with German 'Vieh' and Latin
 'pecus'). Another favorite with variant spelling (if only for one
 generation) is Haozous/Houser.
 -Arlo James Barnes

 
 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
 Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Nick Thompson 
Seriously.  I want one.  I think our language makes orthography a contradiction 
in terms.  

 

n

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 6:22 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

 

It's called The Royal Academy.  Do  you want one?  

Seriously, there are a few variations in Spanish orthography and more in 
vocabulary from country to country.

Frank

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original Message 
Subject:Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames
From :Nick Thompson 
Date :Sun, 23-Feb-2014 18:12
To :'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
CC :

How come other people can standardize their spellings and we can’t standardize 
ours.  

 

Damn!

 

n

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 4:01 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

 

Spelling of certain surnames (apellidos) in Spanish wasn’t standardized until 
after New Mexico was colonized by Spain.  There are only a few spelling 
ambiguities that are possible in Spanish:  soft “c”, “s” and “z” are pretty 
much indistinguishable;  “ll” and “y” sound the same; “h” isn’t pronounced so 
you will sometimes see “hormiga” spelled as “ormiga”, for example.  In New 
Mexico and certain other places you will see “Gonzales”, “Chaves”, “Sisneros”, 
and “Vasquez” while in Mexico and Spain they are almost always spelled 
“Gonzalez”, “Chavez”, “Cisneros”, and Vazquez”.  There are many other examples.

 

Frank

 

 

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz

Santa Fe, NM 87505

 

 mailto:wimber...@gmail.com wimber...@gmail.com  
mailto:wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu

Phone:  (505) 995-8715  Cell:  (505) 670-9918

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Arlo Barnes
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 2:48 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Santa Fe New Mexican: Our View: For mayor, no perfect 
choice

 

The rationale Dimas gave (in a Generation Next interview) is that he thinks the 
public fora Bushe`e and Gonzales have been debating in (the usual places, that 
is) are frequented predominantly by insiders, and not the public at large. 
Apparently, he thinks the best way to contact the actual public, then, is to 
flood the city with the physical equivalent of spam - polycarbonate campaign 
signs. I cannot vote for mayor because I live outside city limits (if you 
actually look at the boundaries, especially on the south side, they can be 
pretty ragged), but I would love to see an art campaign for defacing his (and 
others') posters - even his supporters could join in with favorable 
modifications.

It seems like the main reason behind the (more extensive than one might think?) 
feeling of 'no good choice' is that the main venues of discussion have focussed 
on politics (like funding) rather than issues and ideological/action history. 
Gonzales (Chrome suggested Gonzalez, is that spelling more common 
internationally?) may be backed by big money, but more important are the 
questions of whose big money, and if that will affect his actions as possible 
mayor, and in which way.

-Arlo James Barnes


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Nick Thompson 
Lee, 

I just want to be able to teach my grandchildren to write and spell without
having to apologize every third sentence for the blatant irrationality of
the language they are learning.  

N

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-Original Message-
From: lrudo...@meganet.net [mailto:lrudo...@meganet.net] 
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 6:57 PM
To: Nick Thompson; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

Nick asks:

 How come other people can standardize their spellings and we can't 
 standardize ours.
 
  
 
 Damn!

Well, in the first place, the case of actual Spanish-as-she-is-spoke,
including all its dialectal differences, isn't quite as clean as the
official Castilian standard that Frank has cited.  For instance, Galician is
(I am assured) mutually intelligible with Portuguese (specifically, the
dialect of Portuguese spoken in the nearby parts of Portugal), and
Portuguese is famous for the difficulty of decoding the written language
into (any of the many and various dialects of) the spoken language.  

In the second place, two desiderata are incompatible.  It is evidently
desirable to many, including you, Nick, to be able to have a written
language that encodes the spoken language in a faithful manner.  But it is
also desirable to many (including, I hope, you) to be able to read texts
written in one's language in earlier periods, when the pronunciation is
*very* likely to have been (often, *very*) different.  In one European
country (I forget which one; it was either the Netherlands or one of the
continental Scandinavian countries) a fairly recent spelling reform,
designed to fulfil the first desideratum, reportedly made texts from even a
hundred years ago totally unreadable (in their original form) by modern
schoolchildren.
We can at least recognize Shakespeare--and certainly Dickens!--as writing in
something like our English, even if many of his rhymes and jokes don't work
for us.  (Busy as a bee was a better joke when busy was pronounced as
we'd pronounce buzzy.)




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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Tom Johnson 
Well, since we've gone this far...

I have yet to land on a singular pronunciation of yo.. It can vary from
the hard Y as in Joe to yo like yo-yo.
My preliminary observation: the farther south one goes in LatAm, the
harder/stronger the y, as in Joe.  But better data is clearly needed.
I wonder if linguists have done any mapping of Spanish as has been done for
American usages?
-TJ
On Feb 23, 2014 6:50 PM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote:

  On 2/23/14 6:36 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

  Xavier and Xalapa come to mind.   Both those xs are pronounced like
 h.

 and Mehico!


 
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Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames

2014-02-23 Thread Brent Auble 
My brother-in-law is from Bogota, Colombia, and he pronounces most ys and 
lls as a hard j.

Brent



 From: Tom Johnson t...@jtjohnson.com
To: Friam@redfish. com friam@redfish.com 
Sent: Sunday, February 23, 2014 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Spelling of Spanish Surnames
 


Well, since we've gone this far...
I have yet to land on a singular pronunciation of yo.. It can vary from the 
hard Y as in Joe to yo like yo-yo.  
My preliminary observation: the farther south one goes in LatAm, the 
harder/stronger the y, as in Joe.  But better data is clearly needed.  I 
wonder if linguists have done any mapping of Spanish as has been done for 
American usages?
-TJ
On Feb 23, 2014 6:50 PM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote:

On 2/23/14 6:36 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:

Xavier and Xalapa come to mind.   Both those “x”s are pronounced like “h”.
and Mehico!



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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