Re: [FRIAM] Wikileaks Mirror Taken Down: Host Buckles Under Demands from Upstream Provider | Electronic Frontier Foundation

[glen]

I found this "documentary" interesting:

Ethos
http://www.ethosthemovie.com/

"Hosted by twice Oscar nominated actor and activist Woody Harrelson,
Ethos lifts the lid on a Pandora's box of systemic issues that guarantee
failure in almost every aspect of our lives; from the environment to
democracy and our own personal liberty: From terrifying conflicts of
interests in politics to unregulated corporate power, to a media in the
hands of massive conglomerates, and a military industrial complex that
virtually owns our representatives. With interviews from some of todays
leading thinkers and source material from the finest documentary film
makers of our times Ethos examines and  unravels these complex
relationships, and offers a solution, a simple but powerful way for you
to change this system!"

In the end, they propose the same solution we're talking about, here:
know what you're buying when you spend money.  Where does the money go
after you hand it over to Amazon, Apple, Wal-Mart, or to your county for
property taxes?  Or, worse yet, how much of it does Visa or Paypal shave
off through their privileged positions as the man in the middle?

Steve Smith wrote circa 11-01-05 01:58 PM:
> I'm with you on the awareness angle... I appreciate your clarification
> about reward/punish, it is key, and helps illuminate what I was niggling
> at.
> 
> Too often, in our drive to reward/punish, we occlude the rest of our
> awareness, we seek someone to "blame" or "credit" to the point of
> ignoring the field of play they are in, the other actors right in line
> behind/next-to them... rotating through a series of "whipping boys" to
> take our wrath rather than seeing the obvious causes and then, often
> even when we see through to the first layer of causes, we stop there and
> don't recognize how those are often merely symptoms of deeper causes.
> 
> You also make the point that many would consider the choices being made
> by the "bad actors" as being "good choices" and therefore identifying
> them as "good actors".  All this leads to polarization and divisions
> that are perhaps unproductive...   I am surrounded by judgements by my
> friends and colleagues which I must hold in suspension to avoid this
> polarization.  I happen to like a lot about the implications of the
> activities of the WikiLeaks but don't necessarily demonize those who
> find themselves unable to support them.

-- 
glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Wikileaks Mirror Taken Down: Host Buckles Under Demands from Upstream Provider | Electronic Frontier Foundation

[Steve Smith]

Glen -

I'm with you on the awareness angle... I appreciate your clarification 
about reward/punish, it is key, and helps illuminate what I was niggling 
at.


Too often, in our drive to reward/punish, we occlude the rest of our 
awareness, we seek someone to "blame" or "credit" to the point of 
ignoring the field of play they are in, the other actors right in line 
behind/next-to them... rotating through a series of "whipping boys" to 
take our wrath rather than seeing the obvious causes and then, often 
even when we see through to the first layer of causes, we stop there and 
don't recognize how those are often merely symptoms of deeper causes.


You also make the point that many would consider the choices being made 
by the "bad actors" as being "good choices" and therefore identifying 
them as "good actors".  All this leads to polarization and divisions 
that are perhaps unproductive...   I am surrounded by judgements by my 
friends and colleagues which I must hold in suspension to avoid this 
polarization.  I happen to like a lot about the implications of the 
activities of the WikiLeaks but don't necessarily demonize those who 
find themselves unable to support them.


- Steve

I think maybe we are roughly on the same page.

Mostly, yes.  However, I didn't intend to focus on the reward/punish
aspect.  Sorry for the distraction.  My primary point is about
identification.  What anyone does with the data gained by paying
attention is their business.  Indeed, what anyone regards as good and
bad behavior is their business.  I'm certain that many of my friends
think SiteGround and SoftLayer made Good decisions.  I disagree;
regardless, it's important to draw attention to their decisions so that
those attending can judge for themselves.  Those who fail to pay
attention fail in their duty to themselves and their network.

To be clear, I'm positing that the _cause_ of the systemic problem is
lack of attention.  So, calling out good and bad behavior and naming
good and bad actors is not just a good start and it's not treating the
symptom rather than the cause.  Calling it out is treating the cause.





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Re: [FRIAM] Wikileaks Mirror Taken Down: Host Buckles Under Demands from Upstream Provider | Electronic Frontier Foundation

[glen]

Steve Smith wrote circa 11-01-04 11:31 PM:
> I think maybe we are roughly on the same page.

Mostly, yes.  However, I didn't intend to focus on the reward/punish
aspect.  Sorry for the distraction.  My primary point is about
identification.  What anyone does with the data gained by paying
attention is their business.  Indeed, what anyone regards as good and
bad behavior is their business.  I'm certain that many of my friends
think SiteGround and SoftLayer made Good decisions.  I disagree;
regardless, it's important to draw attention to their decisions so that
those attending can judge for themselves.  Those who fail to pay
attention fail in their duty to themselves and their network.

To be clear, I'm positing that the _cause_ of the systemic problem is
lack of attention.  So, calling out good and bad behavior and naming
good and bad actors is not just a good start and it's not treating the
symptom rather than the cause.  Calling it out is treating the cause.

-- 
glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Wikileaks Mirror Taken Down: Host Buckles Under Demands from Upstream Provider | Electronic Frontier Foundation

[Owen Densmore]

While I agree that we have responsibilities to understand the net/corporate 
environment and take our small stands, the more core issue is simply the 
network itself.

Unfortunately, it is not easily managed by the private sector.  The cellular 
network is not mobile .. you cannot take your verizon phone to europe, it is 
CDMA rather than GSM.  Europe decided cellular technology was a core resource 
and thus regulated it from the start, in particular creating the GSM standards 
body to insure all carriers were interoperable.

The internet is similar: it is just not well matched to the private sector.  
Services ON the internet are, but not the internet itself.  It must be 
interoperable everywhere, worldwide, and it must have clear rights of way.  
Lawrence Lessig got it right in his books about Code is Law.

Its frightening to think of .. but I think the internet should be like water, a 
public utility.  And likely best managed by smaller governmental units like the 
county.

Bullies are bullies and are likely to try to control local utilities, but there 
is evidence that local governments do succeed in managing utilities of various 
kinds.  I think they could handle internet.

-- Owen



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Re: [FRIAM] Wikileaks Mirror Taken Down: Host Buckles Under Demands from Upstream Provider | Electronic Frontier Foundation

[Steve Smith]

Glen -

I think maybe we are roughly on the same page.

My concern boils down to something pretty simple.  I believe that 
non-human entities, (e.g. corporations, governments, etc.) of a certain 
complexity, act like simple organisms which often means acting in 
parasitic and opportunistic ways.   I acknowledge that some of these 
entities which might be operated by single individual humans or very 
small groups have a chance of being mere "extensions" of the individuals 
and therefore more likely to behave in the manner the individuals would.


I worry that overly simplistic, or superficial attempts to "hold them 
accountable" at best do little and at worst make them stronger and more 
clever.   I think a strong analogy with the misuse of antibiotics and 
the rise of antibiotic-resistant bacteria can be applied here.   I 
believe that all of our institutions (government, corporate, religious, 
etc.) have been "trained" by us to maintain relatively effective 
camouflage, to hide their worst depradations while presenting  a 
"kinder, gentler, greener, more organic, etc." face to us.


I'm not saying that trying to get Amazon and Visa and MC and PayPal and 
... to act better by "voting with our feet" is not motivated and might 
even have a positive effect.   I'm saying, I think it is at best "a good 
start".   We are a society of complacency... we will knee-jerk against 
the latest bad actor while supporting smugly those who didn't get caught 
(this time).


I've been switching cell service providers every few years because I get 
fed up with the one I have, only to grow to discover that the next one I 
choose (often with careful research) has a whole different set of bad 
behaviours...   It leads to an a-virtuous cycle... and I fear that much 
of our attempts to "punish" the bad actors risks that (or worse, see my 
antibiotic-resistance analogy above).


I'm not prescribing a specific solution here, I don't have one, but I 
*do* think we need to look (even) more deeply at the problem before we 
think we have it solved.   We may be doing little or perhaps aggravating 
it unwittingly.


- STeve




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Re: [FRIAM] Wikileaks Mirror Taken Down: Host Buckles Under Demands from Upstream Provider | Electronic Frontier Foundation

[Steve Smith]

Glen Ropella wrote:

Douglas Roberts wrote  circa 01/03/2011 08:00 PM:

Fuck 'em.  There are 1,426 other mirrors, plus uncounted "stealth"
mirrors out there ready to go live if needed.

That misses the point, though.  It's not about Wikileaks.  It's about
the (some particular, not all) corporations and the systemic culture of
fear.


And I think that singling out the specific individual corporations or 
people who get caught out acting in the manner which is otherwise 
generally approved and accepted misses the point as well.


BP's gulf spill was not (merely) a simple reflection of their personal, 
specific bad behaviour, it was a consequence of an entire industry, of 
the very nature of capitalistic, consumerist industry (what our world, 
the first world is built upon) and it *intrinsic* search for higher 
profits through increased volumes and exported/denied risk.


It has always been the case that industry has arranged for the majority 
of the risk or consequences to fall somewhere besides inside their 
boundaries.  This is generally (to owners/shareholders called good 
business).  The coal miners lungs were only the mine's problem insomuch 
as they needed to replace those individuals in the mines no longer able 
to work effectively.  Exxon Corporation was only risking the loss of a 
shipful of crude oil and the ship when they allowed the Valdiz to be 
grounded/punctured as it was.   Union Carbide was risking only the loss 
of a highly profitable plant in Bhopal India when they took the 
industrial risks (which the Indian Government allowed because they were 
only risking the loss of a single community if a disaster struck) that 
lead to the 1984 disaster.


Do we buy gasoline or other petroleum products that ultimately came from 
BP and Exxon, or industrial chemicals/products from Union Carbide 
still?  Many boycotted them as best they could at the time of the 
accidents, but then either returned to patronizing them after a suitable 
period of mourning/indignation or pushed their products into wholesale 
markets where we never see the source but continue to reap the 
convenience/benefits/marginal-effeciencies of their risk-taking (at 
other's expense).  Exxon-Mobil, BP, and Union Carbide are all still 
doing swimmingly... in fact I suspect most everyone here with money 
invested in mutual funds or similar profits (poorly these days) hold 
part ownership in all three... and probably Amazon too.


I'm not trying to defuse the righteous indignation against these things, 
or the desire to not reinforce bad behaviour, but rather trying to point 
out that the problems we face are deeper and more systemic than the 
specific behaviour of specific corporations/groups in specific 
circumstances.


 The Swedes complicity with the Assange thing may implicate them 
specifically, but probably doesn't absolve most of the first world who 
would very likely cooperate with the USA in the same circumstances.  And 
the third world as well, maybe more quickly to avoid being declared a 
"rogue state" and offered up their own helping of "shock and awe".


Buy.Com is not necessarily a better place to throw your one-stop online 
shopping than Amazon simply because they don't offer hosting services 
and didn't have the opportunity to decline Wikileaks hosting, etc. I'd 
guess they'd do the same in a heartbeat!   And Itsy.com for all it's 
wonderful handmade goods doesn't offer what most of us think we need.


I strongly agree with Glen's last statement, the only challenge is to 
not stop with the most obvious or recent offenders, but to apply it even 
more deeply.


   /But I'd rather make my life more interesting or simple, than reward
   people for their bad behavior./

We are a crowd with at least one thing in common... most of us are rabid 
technophiles and very likely (over?) optimizers...  my experience is 
that the vocal ones here are generally liberal/progressive in their 
social ideals, but we have such huge heads that we try to know 
everything.  I'm surely doing it right here, noticing that for every 
Amazon, PayPal, Visa, MasterCard or SiteGround/SoftLayer there are 
thousands more that have not had the opportunity (yet) to show their 
ugly stripes, and we are likely to blindly throw our support to them in 
indignation over those who got caught before we will actually question 
the underlying assumptions of what these industries (convenience in 
purchasing, online/virtual goods, internet services, etc.) imply for 
us.   I know plenty of folks who diss WalMart but live for their trips 
to Target and Whole Foods.  It really only barely computes... or not.


I wonder sometimes why, in the frictionlessness of our new economy and 
virtual marketplaces that we don't have more voluntary, collectivism?   
Why are there not CoOperative ISPs, Virtual Marketplaces, 
Credit/Purchase-Card systems, Gasoline/Oil/Mineral 
exploration/production systems, Insurance (Life, Auto, Health) 
Systems?   Even Itsy and Craigslist are priva

Re: [FRIAM] Wikileaks Mirror Taken Down: Host Buckles Under Demands from Upstream Provider | Electronic Frontier Foundation

[glen]

Douglas Roberts wrote  circa 01/03/2011 08:00 PM:
> Fuck 'em.  There are 1,426 other mirrors, plus uncounted "stealth"
> mirrors out there ready to go live if needed.

That misses the point, though.  It's not about Wikileaks.  It's about
the (some particular, not all) corporations and the systemic culture of
fear.  It's about SiteGround and SoftLayer and their choosing to shut
down a customer just because they can ... or because they fear the
consequences of [gasp] siding with their customer.

The same thing happened with AT&T et al regarding the warrant-less wire
tapping thing.  The customers of the big corporations have their privacy
violated; then those same customers roll right over and buy a bunch of
AT&T locked iPhones!  That'll sure discourage AT&T's bad behavior, eh?

That's the point.  Paying attention to who exhibits good behavior and
who exhibits bad behavior (especially when aliases abound and actors are
embedded in layer upon layer of obfuscating shells) takes more effort
than simply mirroring some one-off set of documents.  We have to reward
good behavior and avoid or penalize bad behavior.

It's important to at least _identify_ SiteGround and SoftLayer as the
bad guys, along with Amazon, Paypal, Visa, MasterCard, etc.  I'm almost
free of Paypal.  I still have to use Amazon for work; but I no longer
buy anything personal through them.  I haven't found a way to rid myself
of Visa and MasterCard; but I'm trying.

On the one hand, such constraints limit me in what seem to be important
ways.  E.g. Not buying MP3s from Amazon means I may have to buy actual
CDs, with a bunch of wasteful one-use plastic and the costs of shipping
(not just my out of pocket but also the carbon footprint of shipping
from, say, Europe).  Or, e.g., not using Dropbox, because it relies on
Amazon, may force me to maintain my rsync-over-ssh nightmare. [grin]
But I'd rather make my life more interesting or simple, than reward
people for their bad behavior.

I am currently looking for a new (cheaper) VPS provider.  And I now know
I will _not_ use SiteGround or SoftLayer.

> On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 7:25 PM, Glen Ropella G1  > wrote:
> 
> 
> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/12/weakest-links-host-buckles-when-upstream-provider

-- 
glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Wikileaks Mirror Taken Down: Host Buckles Under Demands from Upstream Provider | Electronic Frontier Foundation

[Douglas Roberts]

Fuck 'em.  There are 1,426 other mirrors, plus uncounted "stealth" mirrors
out there ready to go live if needed.

--Doug


On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 7:25 PM, Glen Ropella G1 wrote:

>
> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/12/weakest-links-host-buckles-when-upstream-provider
> --
> glen
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>



-- 
Doug Roberts
drobe...@rti.org
d...@parrot-farm.net
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

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[FRIAM] Wikileaks Mirror Taken Down: Host Buckles Under Demands from Upstream Provider | Electronic Frontier Foundation

[Glen Ropella G1]

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/12/weakest-links-host-buckles-when-upstream-provider
--
glen


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