Re: [FRIAM] From Merle--AI News

[glen]

Well, there's an argument that the Search usage pattern is incompatible with 
next token predictors. E.g. 
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/03/lawyer-chatgpt-research-avianca-statement-ai-risk-openai-deepmind.
 But maybe it depends on what one's searching for?

On 6/19/23 09:43, Roger Critchlow wrote:

There probably already is a law, but no one knows what it is?  The law suffers 
from the same curse as the scientific literature, most of it gets ignored 
because no one has the time to read it all.

So maybe that's what LLM's are for.  We can set one to read the collected works 
of Carl Friederich Gauss, and we'll finally be able to find out how much of 
mathematics he invented/discovered.  We can set one to read the laws of each 
podunk in the US and find out exactly what's permitted and what's forbidden and 
what's hopelessly confused.

-- rec --

On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 10:25 AM Steve Smith mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:


glen wrote:
 > IDK. The implication that we already have laws that cover (80%?) of
 > the use cases for new tech we, as a society, want to discourage, is a
 > good default. It resists the "there ought to be a law" sensibility
 > held by old people and curmudgeons everywhere. And it keeps our legal
 > system a little more adaptive than it would be were we to burden it
 > with even more persnickety case-by-case rulings.
 >
 >
I share your feeling that "there oughtta be a law!" is a red-herring,
though I don't know about it being that tightly coupled with "old
people"...  my experience is that people whose experiences and
sensibilities which are much different from mine are more apt to express
those sentiments, but I think this related to confirmation bias.  If
they are shaking their fist with "there oughtta be a law!" sentiments
about something I feel the same way about it goes right past me, but if
it is somehow "off" from my alignments it grates.   I find young people
(when I was in HS, my civics/history/government/etc classes were filled
with them) full of the more egregious phrase "that's ILLEGAL!" in place
of "that OFFENDS ME!".   I try to hear "there oughtta be a law" as
pining for a new and relevant heuristic where the old one(s) don't work
(well)?


 > The point being that behaviorism is insidious. You are not a shallow
 > narrative comprising Instagram "stories" in the same way ChatGPT is
 > not an organism. But it's not merely behaviorism. There's a similar
 > problem with the concept of an integrated personality
 > >.

I identify as a self-organized/ing complex adaptive system coupled with
other complex systems in such a way as to be an all-subsuming (read
panpsychic) system of systems (nearly-decomposable in Herb Simon's
sensibilites).   Or in Schwietzer's sensibilities: "I am life which
wills to live amongst life which wills to live".   Does the biosphere of
Earth "will to live"? (and in the image of Gaia, does it nurture us, or
in the image of Medea, does it seek to shed itself of the blight which
is us?)   How about the solar system or the galaxies or galactic
clusters?   Maybe not even as much as a jellyfish or an amoeba does...
but not less than a grain of sand or am molecule or an interstellar photon?

Depending on the focus/locus of my awareness in a given moment, I am
likely identified differently... like whether I'm having coffee with an
old friend, looking through a telescope or microscope, or blathering on
on FriAM...   an analog to glen's "homunculii"?   I think I can be
episodic and diachronic, or is it only an episodic identity who can
actually imagine both while diachronics are forever shut off from the
experience of being episodic?  Or is it an illusion like "free will"
(pervasive and undeniable, yet nevertheless an illusion)?

Is this not the point of holidays like Juneteenth (not formed but maybe
exploited by Hallmark?), to focus our awareness (and therefore
identity?) on a subset of "life which wills to live" that we normally do
not (fathers day, juneteenth, independence day, thanksgiving, new years,
etc.)?




--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ

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Re: [FRIAM] From Merle--AI News

[Steve Smith]

glen wrote:
IDK. The implication that we already have laws that cover (80%?) of 
the use cases for new tech we, as a society, want to discourage, is a 
good default. It resists the "there ought to be a law" sensibility 
held by old people and curmudgeons everywhere. And it keeps our legal 
system a little more adaptive than it would be were we to burden it 
with even more persnickety case-by-case rulings.


sas> I try to hear "there oughtta be a law" as pining for a new and 
relevant heuristic where the old one(s) don't work (well)?




   In my early coding years I remember coming to the simultaneous
   understanding that the bulk of most systems/code is "exception
   handling" and that most inexperienced coders tend to ignore the
   edge/corner cases until forced (by iterated releases with real users
   as their test-load) and spaghetti up their solutions one exception
   at a time, and sometimes if they don't abstract their exceptions
   well enough the exception handling expands geometrically (with
   exceptions to the exceptions, recursively).




   In my Private Investigator years I spent my share of time in /law
   offices/ and /courthouses/ and rubbing shoulders with /law
   enforcement/...  I came to understand that these too were episystems
   on top of episystems with a scissors/paper/stone circularity built
   into the system to attenuate runaway behaviour by each "branch" of
   government (and/or it's agents).

   The law libraries were dominated in volume and complexity by
   case-law which felt to me to be nothing other than edge-corner
   case/exception-handling...   Most of my clients represented
   plaintiffs in civil cases, a few defendants.   Only those with big
   bucks pursued legal-action, lawyers (and court fees and PIs) being
   expensive and only those in desperate circumstance could muster the
   resources to fight back (see DJT's strategy as taught to him by Roy
   Cohn).

   The lawyers (and the rest of us by extension) thrived on this
   "tangled web of mal-complexity" and I had the (mis)fortune of
   listening in to lawyers and paralegals discuss how they would
   exploit these tangles for their clients...  even to the point of
   trying to enlist me in throwing some extra tanglage into the
   equation myself.



   I stayed above that where I recognized it, trying to refactor my
   client intake process, leading me to my own exception handling: e.g.

1. Divorces with children
2. Divorces with pets
3. Divorces

1. Insurance claim denial
2. Insurance claims
3. Insurance companies as claimant or defendant

1. Distressed Real Estate Foreclosures
2. Real Estate Foreclosures
3. Real Estate Transactions

1. /ad//
   /
2. /nauseum/
3. /infinitum/



   by the time I graduated college I was well over-done with this work
   which lead me almost exclusively to seeing (feeling, smelling,
   tasting) the seamy underbelly of my community (and the world by
   extension).  I began with: "I will only take righteous cases"  and
   ended with "there are no righteous cases".

   So I doubled down and went to Los Alamos to help make
   weapons of mass destruction under the premise of MAD! I considered
   investigative journalism for a few minutes instead... but for /seamy
   underbelly/ problem and the allure of /Nuclear
   Weapons-as-fundamental-physics-and-reality-insight/ I might have
   gone there.



   Thankfully I have aged out on a lot of that and am happy to defer
   most of the "hard questions" to Sabine Hossenfelder  and Randall
   Munroe who are much smarter and more clever at expressing it than I
   ever will be or have been!

   I just watched her very convincing episode on why free will is an
   illusion.  I found her very convincing, but realize that she and I
   had absolutely no choice in the matter of being compelling or
   compelled...   I  have the illusion that I'm one step closer to
   Satori now...  until Glen hits me with a stick again!

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Re: [FRIAM] From Merle--AI News

[Roger Critchlow]

There probably already is a law, but no one knows what it is?  The law
suffers from the same curse as the scientific literature, most of it gets
ignored because no one has the time to read it all.

So maybe that's what LLM's are for.  We can set one to read the collected
works of Carl Friederich Gauss, and we'll finally be able to find out how
much of mathematics he invented/discovered.  We can set one to read the
laws of each podunk in the US and find out exactly what's permitted and
what's forbidden and what's hopelessly confused.

-- rec --

On Mon, Jun 19, 2023 at 10:25 AM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> glen wrote:
> > IDK. The implication that we already have laws that cover (80%?) of
> > the use cases for new tech we, as a society, want to discourage, is a
> > good default. It resists the "there ought to be a law" sensibility
> > held by old people and curmudgeons everywhere. And it keeps our legal
> > system a little more adaptive than it would be were we to burden it
> > with even more persnickety case-by-case rulings.
> >
> >
> I share your feeling that "there oughtta be a law!" is a red-herring,
> though I don't know about it being that tightly coupled with "old
> people"...  my experience is that people whose experiences and
> sensibilities which are much different from mine are more apt to express
> those sentiments, but I think this related to confirmation bias.  If
> they are shaking their fist with "there oughtta be a law!" sentiments
> about something I feel the same way about it goes right past me, but if
> it is somehow "off" from my alignments it grates.   I find young people
> (when I was in HS, my civics/history/government/etc classes were filled
> with them) full of the more egregious phrase "that's ILLEGAL!" in place
> of "that OFFENDS ME!".   I try to hear "there oughtta be a law" as
> pining for a new and relevant heuristic where the old one(s) don't work
> (well)?
>
>
> > The point being that behaviorism is insidious. You are not a shallow
> > narrative comprising Instagram "stories" in the same way ChatGPT is
> > not an organism. But it's not merely behaviorism. There's a similar
> > problem with the concept of an integrated personality
> > .
>
> I identify as a self-organized/ing complex adaptive system coupled with
> other complex systems in such a way as to be an all-subsuming (read
> panpsychic) system of systems (nearly-decomposable in Herb Simon's
> sensibilites).   Or in Schwietzer's sensibilities: "I am life which
> wills to live amongst life which wills to live".   Does the biosphere of
> Earth "will to live"? (and in the image of Gaia, does it nurture us, or
> in the image of Medea, does it seek to shed itself of the blight which
> is us?)   How about the solar system or the galaxies or galactic
> clusters?   Maybe not even as much as a jellyfish or an amoeba does...
> but not less than a grain of sand or am molecule or an interstellar photon?
>
> Depending on the focus/locus of my awareness in a given moment, I am
> likely identified differently... like whether I'm having coffee with an
> old friend, looking through a telescope or microscope, or blathering on
> on FriAM...   an analog to glen's "homunculii"?   I think I can be
> episodic and diachronic, or is it only an episodic identity who can
> actually imagine both while diachronics are forever shut off from the
> experience of being episodic?  Or is it an illusion like "free will"
> (pervasive and undeniable, yet nevertheless an illusion)?
>
> Is this not the point of holidays like Juneteenth (not formed but maybe
> exploited by Hallmark?), to focus our awareness (and therefore
> identity?) on a subset of "life which wills to live" that we normally do
> not (fathers day, juneteenth, independence day, thanksgiving, new years,
> etc.)?
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] From Merle--AI News

[Steve Smith]

glen wrote:
IDK. The implication that we already have laws that cover (80%?) of 
the use cases for new tech we, as a society, want to discourage, is a 
good default. It resists the "there ought to be a law" sensibility 
held by old people and curmudgeons everywhere. And it keeps our legal 
system a little more adaptive than it would be were we to burden it 
with even more persnickety case-by-case rulings.



I share your feeling that "there oughtta be a law!" is a red-herring, 
though I don't know about it being that tightly coupled with "old 
people"...  my experience is that people whose experiences and 
sensibilities which are much different from mine are more apt to express 
those sentiments, but I think this related to confirmation bias.  If 
they are shaking their fist with "there oughtta be a law!" sentiments 
about something I feel the same way about it goes right past me, but if 
it is somehow "off" from my alignments it grates.   I find young people 
(when I was in HS, my civics/history/government/etc classes were filled 
with them) full of the more egregious phrase "that's ILLEGAL!" in place 
of "that OFFENDS ME!".   I try to hear "there oughtta be a law" as 
pining for a new and relevant heuristic where the old one(s) don't work 
(well)?



The point being that behaviorism is insidious. You are not a shallow 
narrative comprising Instagram "stories" in the same way ChatGPT is 
not an organism. But it's not merely behaviorism. There's a similar 
problem with the concept of an integrated personality 
.


I identify as a self-organized/ing complex adaptive system coupled with 
other complex systems in such a way as to be an all-subsuming (read 
panpsychic) system of systems (nearly-decomposable in Herb Simon's 
sensibilites).   Or in Schwietzer's sensibilities: "I am life which 
wills to live amongst life which wills to live".   Does the biosphere of 
Earth "will to live"? (and in the image of Gaia, does it nurture us, or 
in the image of Medea, does it seek to shed itself of the blight which 
is us?)   How about the solar system or the galaxies or galactic 
clusters?   Maybe not even as much as a jellyfish or an amoeba does... 
but not less than a grain of sand or am molecule or an interstellar photon?


Depending on the focus/locus of my awareness in a given moment, I am 
likely identified differently... like whether I'm having coffee with an 
old friend, looking through a telescope or microscope, or blathering on 
on FriAM...   an analog to glen's "homunculii"?   I think I can be 
episodic and diachronic, or is it only an episodic identity who can 
actually imagine both while diachronics are forever shut off from the 
experience of being episodic?  Or is it an illusion like "free will" 
(pervasive and undeniable, yet nevertheless an illusion)?


Is this not the point of holidays like Juneteenth (not formed but maybe 
exploited by Hallmark?), to focus our awareness (and therefore 
identity?) on a subset of "life which wills to live" that we normally do 
not (fathers day, juneteenth, independence day, thanksgiving, new years, 
etc.)?




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Re: [FRIAM] From Merle--AI News

[glen]

IDK. The implication that we already have laws that cover (80%?) of the use cases for new 
tech we, as a society, want to discourage, is a good default. It resists the "there 
ought to be a law" sensibility held by old people and curmudgeons everywhere. And it 
keeps our legal system a little more adaptive than it would be were we to burden it with 
even more persnickety case-by-case rulings.

I'm more interested in the deeper threats of new tech. E.g. "Altered Images": 
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10728-016-0327-1 and our tendency to "identify 
as". Annoying story time. Maybe I've mentioned this before, but ...

I was at the pub with one of those people who describe themselves as left or liberal. But over the course of the conversation, it came out 
that he was largely anti-trans ... basically a TERF ... but perhaps not so radical, maybe replace radical with reactionary. In an attempt 
to constructively criticize his stance, I asked him whether he "identifies as a man". He quickly said "Yes." I 
responded, "I don't." I also don't identify as Texan ... or Washingtonian ... or White (or Scotch-Irish, which is what the nuns 
told my parents I was) ... or as a Ropella (which is easy being adopted). Etc. We didn't have the time to go into diachronic vs. episodic. 
But by highlighting the fact that he identifies with various tribes (e.g. "men" and "American" - he's got ethnic 
features, but doesn't identify with the ethnicities they're associated with), I'd hoped to demonstrate that "identifying as" is 
problematic no matter what it is you identify with. So maybe I'm also anti-trans because *anyone* who identifies as a man is simply 
confused ... including him.

The point being that behaviorism is insidious. You are not a shallow narrative comprising 
Instagram "stories" in the same way ChatGPT is not an organism. But it's not merely 
behaviorism. There's a similar problem with the concept of an integrated personality 
. Faced with such severe and disastrous 
delusional separation from one's environment, focusing on the suffering that can be caused by 
particular instances of abuse (as in DeStefano) seems overly Utilitarian, flattening experience 
into a 1-dimensional spectrum. It's a different symptom of the same disease.

On 6/16/23 16:07, Steve Smith wrote:



Extortion is illegal, no?


Apparently there are both federal and (all 50) state laws against 
(im)personation (to achieve gain or cause harm).   As far as I know this 
doesn't keep Halloween stores from selling Richard Nixon and Donald Trump 
masks,  but *might* have something to say if they were realistic enough to pass 
for *real* in casual contexts.

Extortion as in this case would be on the more extreme end of "intending harm" and "achieving 
gain"?   Does the (im)personation qualify as "aggravated"?

An early application of DeepFake photo/video was to generate mashup pornography  and much of that 
is pursued under "defamation" rules...   the same was what applied to hand-work in a film 
print lab and air-brush artistry.   It has added an extra degree of freedom for generating 
"revenge porn" as one might guess.

During Gulf War zero, LANL was developing simulation models of human vocal 
tracts so as to allow for on-demand deepfake audio with Saddam Hussein as the 
reference example (and likely prime target).  Back then digital 
radio/encryption were not ubiquitous. This work was declassified a decade 
later...  or maybe I just thought it was/should-be?

Presumably a studied voice-actor could have faked DeStefano's daughter's voice to a suitable degree 
for the purpose, but the lowering of thresholds seems to be what might need attention? There are 
lots of ways to cause dangerous explosions...  the fact that a stick of dynamite with a fuse on one 
end and a match make it "trivial" differentiates the need for regulations on that from 
say "pressure cookers" ?  I'm glad I can buy a pressure cooker without a background check 
and (mostly) glad that to acquire dynamite (or most other highly convenient/concentrated 
explosives) requires some scrutiny by my community (via the ATF, etc?).

Farmers who use both fuel oil and Ammonium Nitrate Fertilizer for their work (aka 
ANFO when mixed and ignited properly) are often resentful of this oversight.   I 
don't know that Tim McVeigh had an easier time renting a big box truck to deliver a 
load of same than the guy in Boston a few years ago 
?
   I *do* think airliners filled with jet fuel are more respected than they were 
before 9/11 but then so are box-cutters...

I think most laws about "aggravated" assault/homicide/rape/??? specify "deadly weapon" of which we have a conventional 
range of "usual suspects" (gun, knife, poison, bludgeon) and another range of unsurprising examples (moving vehicle, etc.)  and 
more esoteric ones ("frozen limp noodle 

Re: [FRIAM] From Merle--AI News

[Steve Smith]

Extortion is illegal, no?


Apparently there are both federal and (all 50) state laws against 
(im)personation (to achieve gain or cause harm).   As far as I know this 
doesn't keep Halloween stores from selling Richard Nixon and Donald 
Trump masks,  but *might* have something to say if they were realistic 
enough to pass for *real* in casual contexts.


Extortion as in this case would be on the more extreme end of "intending 
harm" and "achieving gain"?   Does the (im)personation qualify as 
"aggravated"?


An early application of DeepFake photo/video was to generate mashup 
pornography  and much of that is pursued under "defamation" rules...   
the same was what applied to hand-work in a film print lab and air-brush 
artistry.   It has added an extra degree of freedom for generating 
"revenge porn" as one might guess.


During Gulf War zero, LANL was developing simulation models of human 
vocal tracts so as to allow for on-demand deepfake audio with Saddam 
Hussein as the reference example (and likely prime target).  Back then 
digital radio/encryption were not ubiquitous. This work was declassified 
a decade later...  or maybe I just thought it was/should-be?


Presumably a studied voice-actor could have faked DeStefano's daughter's 
voice to a suitable degree for the purpose, but the lowering of 
thresholds seems to be what might need attention? There are lots of ways 
to cause dangerous explosions...  the fact that a stick of dynamite with 
a fuse on one end and a match make it "trivial" differentiates the need 
for regulations on that from say "pressure cookers" ?  I'm glad I can 
buy a pressure cooker without a background check and (mostly) glad that 
to acquire dynamite (or most other highly convenient/concentrated 
explosives) requires some scrutiny by my community (via the ATF, etc?).


Farmers who use both fuel oil and Ammonium Nitrate Fertilizer for their 
work (aka ANFO when mixed and ignited properly) are often resentful of 
this oversight.   I don't know that Tim McVeigh had an easier time 
renting a big box truck to deliver a load of same than the guy in Boston 
a few years ago 
?   
I *do* think airliners filled with jet fuel are more respected than they 
were before 9/11 but then so are box-cutters...


I think most laws about "aggravated" assault/homicide/rape/??? specify 
"deadly weapon" of which we have a conventional range of "usual 
suspects" (gun, knife, poison, bludgeon) and another range of 
unsurprising examples (moving vehicle, etc.)  and more esoteric ones 
("frozen limp noodle or drinking straw fired at high speed from a 
pneumatic tube" or "falling piano", or "exploding pressure cooker with 
failed pressure valve").


Maybe the much-feared  _/!Nanny State!/ _ will 
institute a new department of "Women, Fire and Dangerous Things" 
?




On Jun 16, 2023, at 1:32 PM, Merle Lefkoff  
wrote:




Here in the U.S., Jennifer DeStefano, an Arizona mother, testified at 
a Senate hearing this week about her harrowing experience with a 
deepfake scam that tricked her into thinking her daughter had been 
kidnapped. DeStefano says the fake kidnappers demanded a $50,000 
ransom before she got in touch with her daughter, who was in fact 
safe and sound.


*Jennifer DeStefano*: “It was my daughter’s voice. It was her cries. 
It was her sobs. It was the way she spoke. I will never be able to 
shake that voice and the desperate cries for help out of my mind. 
It’s every parent’s worst nightmare to hear your child pleading with 
fear and pain, knowing that they’re being harmed and that you’re 
helpless. The longer this form of terror remains unpunishable, the 
farther and more egregious it will become. There is no limit to the 
depth of evil AI can enable.”



Is it already too late to design any kind of regulations?


--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org 
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  (303) 859-5609

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Re: [FRIAM] From Merle--AI News

[Steve Smith]

On 6/16/23 2:31 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:


Here in the U.S., Jennifer DeStefano, an Arizona mother, testified at 
a Senate hearing this week about her harrowing experience with a 
deepfake scam that tricked her into thinking her daughter had been 
kidnapped. DeStefano says the fake kidnappers demanded a $50,000 
ransom before she got in touch with her daughter, who was in fact safe 
and sound.


*Jennifer DeStefano*: “It was my daughter’s voice. It was her cries. 
It was her sobs. It was the way she spoke. I will never be able to 
shake that voice and the desperate cries for help out of my mind. It’s 
every parent’s worst nightmare to hear your child pleading with fear 
and pain, knowing that they’re being harmed and that you’re helpless. 
The longer this form of terror remains unpunishable, the farther and 
more egregious it will become. There is no limit to the depth of evil 
AI can enable.”



Is it already too late to design any kind of regulations?

I think it will require some deep re-factoring of many things ranging 
from government regulations and enforcement to social norms and 
expectations.  I fear this will require some kind of collapse or 
revolution and renewal from the ashes.


This is not a reason not to consider deeply what these 
rules/regulations/etc might be... if anyone here knows of serious 
efforts one or two orders-of-magnitude/levels-of-indirection away from 
"the usual" I'd be interested... this qualifies as "wycked-hard" 
problem.  I think there has been precedent for this level of refactoring 
but I think there were things like World Wars that accompanied that 
magnitude (and quality) of change.




--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org 
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  (303) 859-5609


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Re: [FRIAM] From Merle--AI News

[Marcus Daniels]

Extortion is illegal, no?

On Jun 16, 2023, at 1:32 PM, Merle Lefkoff  wrote:


Here in the U.S., Jennifer DeStefano, an Arizona mother, testified at a Senate 
hearing this week about her harrowing experience with a deepfake scam that 
tricked her into thinking her daughter had been kidnapped. DeStefano says the 
fake kidnappers demanded a $50,000 ransom before she got in touch with her 
daughter, who was in fact safe and sound.
Jennifer DeStefano: “It was my daughter’s voice. It was her cries. It was her 
sobs. It was the way she spoke. I will never be able to shake that voice and 
the desperate cries for help out of my mind. It’s every parent’s worst 
nightmare to hear your child pleading with fear and pain, knowing that they’re 
being harmed and that you’re helpless. The longer this form of terror remains 
unpunishable, the farther and more egregious it will become. There is no limit 
to the depth of evil AI can enable.”

Is it already too late to design any kind of regulations?

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  (303) 859-5609

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