Re: [FRIAM] How to reduce the influence of money in US politics! he7a1agy

[Arlo Barnes]

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 1:03 PM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:

>  If you squint, you might wonder if the Mayday PAC is all that different
> from the Republican efforts to disenfranchise the poor, they're both
> focused on solving the problem "why is my side not in control?" by removing
> the other side from the game.
>

Well, enfranchisement is a civil right, whereas political bribery is merely
a convenience for businesses and political action committees. I do not
think Mayday will result in an improvement in the political arena (I think
Lessig's invention of Creative Commons was a lot more effective and
positive), but the stated intent seems quite desirable: money and influence
in politics should be as unrelated as our society can make them.

-Arlo James Barnes

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Re: [FRIAM] How to reduce the influence of money in US politics! he7a1agy

[Grant Holland]

Yep, we're getting to the point that it is impossibly difficult to 
continue to befool ourselves that we have vanquished, or even 
diminished, uncertainty.  The more we know, the more we are uncertain.


Shannon explained why - but there are many doubters . It is this: 
"information" and "uncertainty" are the same thing. In fact, they are 
measured by the same functional: statistical entropy.


Folks who do not understand this are confusing "data" and "information".

On 9/11/14, 1:03 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
The real "issue" is that we're all a mess.  The surprise isn't that 
attempts to change things for the better fail, the miracle is that 
anything works at all.


The more we collectively learn, the more ignorant we all individually 
become, and there isn't any *authority* that can tell us which part of 
our ignorance needs the most attention.  Being smarter just gives us 
greater potential for being ignorant, there's more stuff that we could 
have learned but haven't.


I started watching the Hamming lectures, again, yesterday. 
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2FF649D0C4407B30  He stands up 
there in front of his Naval Postgraduate School class, does a 
back-of-the-envelope calculation of what's implied by a doubling time 
of 17 years for the sum of scientific knowledge, and says (paraphrased 
from memory):  in 40 years one of you will be Chief of Staff, and 
there will be 5 times as much scientific knowledge relevant to your 
work as there is today, that's quite a problem.


I found the book of the lectures, 
http://worrydream.com/refs/Hamming-TheArtOfDoingScienceAndEngineering.pdf, 
the printed continuation to the episode above is:


What is my answer to this dilemma? One answer is you must
concentrate on fundamentals, at least what
you think at the time are fundamentals, and also develop the
ability to learn new fields of knowledge when
they arise so you will not be left behind, as so many good
engineers are in the long run. In the position I
found myself in at the Laboratories, where I was the only one
locally who seemed (at least to me) to have a
firm grasp on computing, I was forced to learn numerical analysis,
computers, pretty much all of the
physical sciences at least enough to cope with the many different
computing problems which arose and whose
solution could benefit the Labs, as well as a lot of the social
and some the biological sciences. Thus I am a
veteran of learning enough to get along without at the same time
devoting all my effort to learning new
topics and thereby not contributing my share to the total effort
of the organization. The early days of
learning had to be done while I was developing and running a
computing center. You will face similar
problems in your career as it progresses, and, at times, face
problems which seem to overwhelm you.


What are the fundamentals of our social-political-economic life together?

If we removed the influence of money from politics, would everything 
suddenly be clear?  No, it would still be 5 times more confusing than 
it was 39 years ago.  "If we could just make _those_ idiots shut up" 
is not a solution, because we are all objectively idiots and 5 times 
more idiotic than we were 39 years ago.  If you squint, you might 
wonder if the Mayday PAC is all that different from the Republican 
efforts to disenfranchise the poor, they're both focused on solving 
the problem "why is my side not in control?" by removing the other 
side from the game.


Your side is not in control because you're idiots and you have no 
persuasive ideas about what to do, not because the idiots on the other 
side are richer or more numerous.


-- rec --

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Owen Densmore > wrote:


Maybe the best comparison is the Arab Spring, where there was so
much hope, and such a dismal result.

Lessig's Freedom From Pacs Spring is likely doomed to the same
end, but I hope not. We need to remember evolution is a part of
Mayday's future: figuring out what works and what doesn't, and
responding quickly.

 -- Owen


On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Owen Densmore
mailto:o...@backspaces.net>> wrote:

I think its going to be quite a while before we see the impact
of Mayday and be able to judge it's "success".

But single issue is definitely a problem if not really, really
well defined.

For example, can Mayday's approach readjust the time folks
spend on getting funding?  You'd think they'd want the
congress/senate to have more time to actually do something.

If not, maybe they should have a different goal: unblocking
the roadblock.

 -- Owen


On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:14 AM, glen mailto:g...@ropella.name>> wrote:


We're starting to see the unintended consequences that we
were trying to 

Re: [FRIAM] How to reduce the influence of money in US politics! he7a1agy

[Roger Critchlow]

The real "issue" is that we're all a mess.  The surprise isn't that
attempts to change things for the better fail, the miracle is that anything
works at all.

The more we collectively learn, the more ignorant we all individually
become, and there isn't any *authority* that can tell us which part of our
ignorance needs the most attention.  Being smarter just gives us greater
potential for being ignorant, there's more stuff that we could have learned
but haven't.

I started watching the Hamming lectures, again, yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2FF649D0C4407B30  He stands up
there in front of his Naval Postgraduate School class, does a
back-of-the-envelope calculation of what's implied by a doubling time of 17
years for the sum of scientific knowledge, and says (paraphrased from
memory):  in 40 years one of you will be Chief of Staff, and there will be
5 times as much scientific knowledge relevant to your work as there is
today, that's quite a problem.

I found the book of the lectures,
http://worrydream.com/refs/Hamming-TheArtOfDoingScienceAndEngineering.pdf,
the printed continuation to the episode above is:

What is my answer to this dilemma? One answer is you must concentrate on
> fundamentals, at least what
> you think at the time are fundamentals, and also develop the ability to
> learn new fields of knowledge when
> they arise so you will not be left behind, as so many good engineers are
> in the long run. In the position I
> found myself in at the Laboratories, where I was the only one locally who
> seemed (at least to me) to have a
> firm grasp on computing, I was forced to learn numerical analysis,
> computers, pretty much all of the
> physical sciences at least enough to cope with the many different
> computing problems which arose and whose
> solution could benefit the Labs, as well as a lot of the social and some
> the biological sciences. Thus I am a
> veteran of learning enough to get along without at the same time devoting
> all my effort to learning new
> topics and thereby not contributing my share to the total effort of the
> organization. The early days of
> learning had to be done while I was developing and running a computing
> center. You will face similar
> problems in your career as it progresses, and, at times, face problems
> which seem to overwhelm you.


What are the fundamentals of our social-political-economic life together?

If we removed the influence of money from politics, would everything
suddenly be clear?  No, it would still be 5 times more confusing than it
was 39 years ago.  "If we could just make _those_ idiots shut up" is not a
solution, because we are all objectively idiots and 5 times more idiotic
than we were 39 years ago.  If you squint, you might wonder if the Mayday
PAC is all that different from the Republican efforts to disenfranchise the
poor, they're both focused on solving the problem "why is my side not in
control?" by removing the other side from the game.

Your side is not in control because you're idiots and you have no
persuasive ideas about what to do, not because the idiots on the other side
are richer or more numerous.

-- rec --

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> Maybe the best comparison is the Arab Spring, where there was so much
> hope, and such a dismal result.
>
> Lessig's Freedom From Pacs Spring is likely doomed to the same end, but I
> hope not. We need to remember evolution is a part of Mayday's future:
> figuring out what works and what doesn't, and responding quickly.
>
>-- Owen
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Owen Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> I think its going to be quite a while before we see the impact of Mayday
>> and be able to judge it's "success".
>>
>> But single issue is definitely a problem if not really, really well
>> defined.
>>
>> For example, can Mayday's approach readjust the time folks spend on
>> getting funding?  You'd think they'd want the congress/senate to have more
>> time to actually do something.
>>
>> If not, maybe they should have a different goal: unblocking the roadblock.
>>
>>-- Owen
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:14 AM, glen  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> We're starting to see the unintended consequences that we were trying to
>>> suss out with our "explanations for why one should do nothing".
>>>
>>>
>>> http://irregulartimes.com/2014/09/10/did-the-single-issue-mayday-pac-fund-canvassers-on-obamacare-gun-rights-and-global-warming/
>>>
>>> Although it's probably too late, those who care might step in and
>>> suggest to mayday.us that "single issue" campaigns are part of the
>>> problem, not part of the solution... if "complexity" means anything, it
>>> means that.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07/01/2014 09:22 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:
>>> > Dare I say, as expected, offered an opportunity to actual do
>>> something, many (the 91%?) keep explaining (debate back and forth) why one
>>> should do nothing.
>>> >
>>> > With all the talent and expertise on this list, surely som

Re: [FRIAM] How to reduce the influence of money in US politics! he7a1agy

[glen]

Well, to be clear.  I don't think it's doomed in any sense, at least no more so 
than any of its fellow PACs.  I just wanted to note that it (apparently) gave a 
bunch of money to support right-wing causes.  We might consider that 
"collateral damage" in support of the end goal.  But it's an important aspect 
of the process.  The linear thinking that leads to PACs, including mayday.us, 
is the problem ... or a fundamental part of the problem.  It's a natural 
tendency. Who wouldn't want to centralize and concentrate all their efforts in 
some way, rather than having to _think_ about the complex ambient splat that is 
the world around us?  Unfortunately, we have plenty of evidence that complexity 
persists despite our reductionist efforts.



On 09/11/2014 09:42 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
> Maybe the best comparison is the Arab Spring, where there was so much hope, 
> and such a dismal result.  
> 
> Lessig's Freedom From Pacs Spring is likely doomed to the same end, but I 
> hope not. We need to remember evolution is a part of Mayday's future: 
> figuring out what works and what doesn't, and responding quickly.
> 
>-- Owen
> 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Owen Densmore  > wrote:
> 
> I think its going to be quite a while before we see the impact of Mayday 
> and be able to judge it's "success".
> 
> But single issue is definitely a problem if not really, really well 
> defined.
> 
> For example, can Mayday's approach readjust the time folks spend on 
> getting funding?  You'd think they'd want the congress/senate to have more 
> time to actually do something.
> 
> If not, maybe they should have a different goal: unblocking the roadblock.
> 
>-- Owen
> 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:14 AM, glen  > wrote:
> 
> 
> We're starting to see the unintended consequences that we were trying 
> to suss out with our "explanations for why one should do nothing".
> 
> 
> http://irregulartimes.com/2014/09/10/did-the-single-issue-mayday-pac-fund-canvassers-on-obamacare-gun-rights-and-global-warming/
> 

-- 
⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella
A great way to swallow my time



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] How to reduce the influence of money in US politics! he7a1agy

[Merle Lefkoff]

Please look at our website:  emergentdiplomacy.org and click on Bretton
Woods 3.0 for a complex systems response to single-issue campaigns.

Also, dear group, I'm leaving next week for the People's Global Climate
Change March in New York to shake up the U.N. before the start of the next
climate change summit.  I just got off the global organizing conference
call, and in the best self-organizing way the march is picking up steam and
may involve up to 200,000 people in New York alone.  CNN will be
broadcasting world-wide.  And there are 1,366 local marches in 198
countries around the world to support the big march in New York.  This is
how you make change.  As many of you do, I remember the 60s and the civil
rights and anti-war movements.  And now we have social media.

Direct action is perhaps the most important way today to get the attention
of positional leaders who are virtually all bought and sold.  And the
Bretton Woods 3.0 summit in Santa Fe in May, 2016 will bring all those
organizers together.  Let me know if you want to help.

Thanks, Merle

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> I think its going to be quite a while before we see the impact of Mayday
> and be able to judge it's "success".
>
> But single issue is definitely a problem if not really, really well
> defined.
>
> For example, can Mayday's approach readjust the time folks spend on
> getting funding?  You'd think they'd want the congress/senate to have more
> time to actually do something.
>
> If not, maybe they should have a different goal: unblocking the roadblock.
>
>-- Owen
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:14 AM, glen  wrote:
>
>>
>> We're starting to see the unintended consequences that we were trying to
>> suss out with our "explanations for why one should do nothing".
>>
>>
>> http://irregulartimes.com/2014/09/10/did-the-single-issue-mayday-pac-fund-canvassers-on-obamacare-gun-rights-and-global-warming/
>>
>> Although it's probably too late, those who care might step in and suggest
>> to mayday.us that "single issue" campaigns are part of the problem, not
>> part of the solution... if "complexity" means anything, it means that.
>>
>>
>> On 07/01/2014 09:22 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:
>> > Dare I say, as expected, offered an opportunity to actual do something,
>> many (the 91%?) keep explaining (debate back and forth) why one should do
>> nothing.
>> >
>> > With all the talent and expertise on this list, surely someone could
>> help Larry Lessig succeed with his campaign?  It's complicated/complex.
>> Who's up to it?  Remember, this was inspired <
>> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-aaron-swartz-helped-inspire-lawrence-lessigs-mayday-pac>
>> by Aaron Swartz.
>>
>>
>> --
>> ⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella
>> Lobsterbacks attack the town again
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>



-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
me...@emergentdiplomacy.org
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merlelefkoff

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] How to reduce the influence of money in US politics! he7a1agy

[Owen Densmore]

Maybe the best comparison is the Arab Spring, where there was so much hope,
and such a dismal result.

Lessig's Freedom From Pacs Spring is likely doomed to the same end, but I
hope not. We need to remember evolution is a part of Mayday's future:
figuring out what works and what doesn't, and responding quickly.

   -- Owen


On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> I think its going to be quite a while before we see the impact of Mayday
> and be able to judge it's "success".
>
> But single issue is definitely a problem if not really, really well
> defined.
>
> For example, can Mayday's approach readjust the time folks spend on
> getting funding?  You'd think they'd want the congress/senate to have more
> time to actually do something.
>
> If not, maybe they should have a different goal: unblocking the roadblock.
>
>-- Owen
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:14 AM, glen  wrote:
>
>>
>> We're starting to see the unintended consequences that we were trying to
>> suss out with our "explanations for why one should do nothing".
>>
>>
>> http://irregulartimes.com/2014/09/10/did-the-single-issue-mayday-pac-fund-canvassers-on-obamacare-gun-rights-and-global-warming/
>>
>> Although it's probably too late, those who care might step in and suggest
>> to mayday.us that "single issue" campaigns are part of the problem, not
>> part of the solution... if "complexity" means anything, it means that.
>>
>>
>> On 07/01/2014 09:22 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:
>> > Dare I say, as expected, offered an opportunity to actual do something,
>> many (the 91%?) keep explaining (debate back and forth) why one should do
>> nothing.
>> >
>> > With all the talent and expertise on this list, surely someone could
>> help Larry Lessig succeed with his campaign?  It's complicated/complex.
>> Who's up to it?  Remember, this was inspired <
>> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-aaron-swartz-helped-inspire-lawrence-lessigs-mayday-pac>
>> by Aaron Swartz.
>>
>>
>> --
>> ⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella
>> Lobsterbacks attack the town again
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] How to reduce the influence of money in US politics! he7a1agy

[Owen Densmore]

I think its going to be quite a while before we see the impact of Mayday
and be able to judge it's "success".

But single issue is definitely a problem if not really, really well defined.

For example, can Mayday's approach readjust the time folks spend on getting
funding?  You'd think they'd want the congress/senate to have more time to
actually do something.

If not, maybe they should have a different goal: unblocking the roadblock.

   -- Owen


On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:14 AM, glen  wrote:

>
> We're starting to see the unintended consequences that we were trying to
> suss out with our "explanations for why one should do nothing".
>
>
> http://irregulartimes.com/2014/09/10/did-the-single-issue-mayday-pac-fund-canvassers-on-obamacare-gun-rights-and-global-warming/
>
> Although it's probably too late, those who care might step in and suggest
> to mayday.us that "single issue" campaigns are part of the problem, not
> part of the solution... if "complexity" means anything, it means that.
>
>
> On 07/01/2014 09:22 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:
> > Dare I say, as expected, offered an opportunity to actual do something,
> many (the 91%?) keep explaining (debate back and forth) why one should do
> nothing.
> >
> > With all the talent and expertise on this list, surely someone could
> help Larry Lessig succeed with his campaign?  It's complicated/complex.
> Who's up to it?  Remember, this was inspired <
> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/how-aaron-swartz-helped-inspire-lawrence-lessigs-mayday-pac>
> by Aaron Swartz.
>
>
> --
> ⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella
> Lobsterbacks attack the town again
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] How to reduce the influence of money in US politics! he7a1agy

[glen]

We're starting to see the unintended consequences that we were trying to suss 
out with our "explanations for why one should do nothing".

http://irregulartimes.com/2014/09/10/did-the-single-issue-mayday-pac-fund-canvassers-on-obamacare-gun-rights-and-global-warming/

Although it's probably too late, those who care might step in and suggest to 
mayday.us that "single issue" campaigns are part of the problem, not part of 
the solution... if "complexity" means anything, it means that.


On 07/01/2014 09:22 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:
> Dare I say, as expected, offered an opportunity to actual do something, many 
> (the 91%?) keep explaining (debate back and forth) why one should do nothing.
> 
> With all the talent and expertise on this list, surely someone could help 
> Larry Lessig succeed with his campaign?  It's complicated/complex.  Who's up 
> to it?  Remember, this was inspired 
> 
>  by Aaron Swartz.


-- 
⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella
Lobsterbacks attack the town again



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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