Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I)
To Futurework, Sally, Arthur, you can cut this if you wish but I have decided that a serious talk from the heart and from our lives about the future life and death issues that face us, all provide an opportunity that should not be missed. Michel's posts to me have convinced me that, for me, it would constitute fiddling while Rome burned, so to speak.His post is readily available on the net and if you need the address it is: On Kosovo: http://www.transnational.org/features/crimefinansed.html On the break-up of Yugoslavia: http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/62/022.html So Michel, This is a very old story. My people were much richer and obviously (from your description) smarter then these you describe and yet the same scam was worked on them in the 1830s by the European Americans. The same scam as run by the economist banker running Serbia. The same story with the Jews and Gypsies during Hitlers reign and when Hitler said that he was following a Western European script used in the U.S., everyone ignored him. And then there are the kulaks. So what is the answer? You keep mentioning Ponzi schemes but the market itself must continually expand or collapse, that is a type of Ponzi Scheme on a much grander scale. i.e. if no one bought stocks and bonds then the market would collapse and the last one to buy just before the stocks contract is always left holding the bag. Also your terming what seems to be a family type "crony" business structure as "organized crime" seems suspicious. How does this relate to their traditional societal structures?Crime is always a relative term. Think of England and America in the Boxer rebellion when the West was using. well you know the story. So you have to come up with a better script than "Describe the history", "list the atrocities" and everyone will "understand" and thus change! There is very little to suggest that this didactic approach has ever worked out side of the dictatorship of the guru or master teacher.And I don't think that the messiahs or master teachers can help much here.Too many adults. So what are you suggesting? How about the Albanians and Serbians make a decision to live together and support each other?Don't take any garbage from the outside and like France after W.W.II declare a moratorium on national debts and build their infrastructure so that they have the power to rule their own lives? Again like the French. This is not Rome, it is both less brutal and no one is going to take them to Hollywood to be fed to Arnold Swartzenegger's pet lion. One point in all of this is that as an immigrant New Yorker I am prone to cynicism around the ability of Europeans to live together, (one war every 25 years for the past 1000 years). e.g. From the usefulness of the window shutters in Geneva, with the guns and one month food supply required by law in the basement, to the doors on new apartments in Milan that are made of steel with steel rod bolts going in four directions to keep out marauding armies. You see I live in NYCity and we take a rather jaundiced look at people who gather together to kill their neighbors or steal their homes. We know that bankers and economists have been figuring out ways to do just that ever since those first banks in Portugal that funded opera off of the pillaging of the Hunter/Gatherer Spaniards and Italians financed by Lisbon bankers. Of course the English were later but worse. So what is new in all of this? Why are you surprised? I am shocked that you are surprised when you are European and this is your history. Don't you know all of those Schubert, Schumann, Brahms and Mahler songs dealing with the European people on the other side of those bankers? Wagner was thrown in debtors jail and barely escaped with his life. He thought the bankers were Jewish and wrote nasty things about Jews but the real power didn't stand in front of the tanks like the Jews, they hid and blended into the crowd with the other white faces. But Wagner too wrote plenty about the economists in his Ring of the Niebelungen, he was mistaken and simple minded in believing that this was cultural. So are the Serbs who use "culture" as proof of their correctness. As a matter of fact Wagner's music always fits uncomfortably with the kind of macho rape and pillage of all warfare. When the Narragansetts watched the Puritans (their allies) burn to death the Pequots, (their enemies) they turned away wondering out loud what the point of such carnage was even on enemies. Although pre-Wagner's Walkyries I can just hear their howls above the men, women, children and even dogs that burned to death in complete silence. A silence so intense that it was said that the killers cried. Goodness is not cultural and neither is greed or evil. (I wrote about the church in my last post so I don't consider it to be an answer either.) But the issue of living together is one that we must solve and doing it creatively must a
Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I)
On Fri, 14 May 1999 02:26:20 -0400, Ray E. Harrell wrote: > One point in all of this is that as an immigrant New Yorker > I am prone to cynicism around the ability of > Europeans to live together, (one war every 25 years for > the past 1000 years). e.g. From the usefulness of the window > shutters in Geneva, with the guns and one month food > supply required by law in the basement, to the doors on > new apartments in Milan that are made of steel with > steel rod bolts going in four directions to keep out marauding > armies. Funny, but here in Europe we don't have an army that has bombed 21 countries during the last 50 years (without having been attacked once). We also don't have the high rates of murder and prisoners that your peaceful country has. Nor do we need metal detectors in our schools to protect the kids from each other, or security guards on our campus to prevent the kids from massacrating their peers on Hitler's birthday. We also don't have militia-men who kill dozens of civilians by blowing up a gov't building. Geez, we don't even have racial riots in large cities after some state officers have beaten up a citizen for his race. But I'm sure we'll have all that pretty soon if we follow the lead of your peace-loving and tolerant country, Ray. > You see I live in NYCity and we take a rather jaundiced > look at people who gather together to kill their neighbors or > steal their homes. Jaundiced indeed for a city that was built on just that. Greetings from a multi-cultural European country that had _2_ short (defense) wars in the last 500 years (but I guess this can't be read in your informative NYT), Chris
Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I)
> Chris you said: > Greetings from a multi-cultural European country > that had _2_ short (defense) wars in the last 500 years > (but I guess this can't be read in your informative NYT), What country is that? Where does it get it's wealth? Do they immigrate people to America? If so, why? Does any of my tax money pay for their education or settlement? What are the various cultures? REH
Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I)
REH asked: > Chris you said: > > Greetings from a multi-cultural European country > > that had _2_ short (defense) wars in the last 500 years > > (but I guess this can't be read in your informative NYT), > > What country is that? Where does it get it's wealth? Do > they immigrate people to America? If so, why? Does any > of my tax money pay for their education or settlement? > What are the various cultures? Not sure what these questions have to do with the original topic, but okay... 1. Switzerland. 2. From about the same sources as the surrounding countries. 3. Virtually none. 4. Dunno (didn't ask them); probably they think they can make more money there? 5. Don't worry, the few Swiss immigrants have a beneficial effect on your tax bill (otherwise the US wouldn't let them in). 6. The 'indigenous' cultures (and the 4 official languages) are German, French, Italian and Rhaeto-Romanic. 20% of the population are from about 100 other cultures. We host more refugees from Kosovo than Germany or the US does (although we don't bomb their homes), and the KLA's drug dealers make about $3 million/year here. HTH, Chris
Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I)
I have the feeling, that if a conflict has a chance (and this one has) to ignite WWlll, than we should talk about nothing else but how to stop insanity. Not much futurework in a destroyed world... Eva Durant > I am re-posting our caveat of a few weeks ago. The war is front and center > with all of us. Discussions about it could easily > swamp all the lists on the net. So Sally and I appeal to all FWers and > your netizen ideals and values to keep futurework to its main discussion > focus. Thanx. > > = > Dear faithful FWers. > > There is obviously a great deal of emotion and concern about events in > Yugoslavia. War is a serious thing. However the futurework list was set up > for a purpose. If we allow postings on this or that side of events > regarding the war it is clear that a new thread on the war will begin. It > is likely that such a thread would overwhelm postings concerning futurework. > Thus we ask that you keep your postings to the general area indicated by our > futurework notices and that you direct your postings vis-a-vis the war and > related matters to those lists more relevant to events underway in > Yugoslavia and neighbouring countries. > > Thank you > > Sally Lerner and Arthur Cordell > > -- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: Ray E. Harrell; Michel Chossudovsky > Subject: Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I) > Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 4:17PM > > On Fri, 14 May 1999 02:26:20 -0400, Ray E. Harrell wrote: > > One point in all of this is that as an immigrant New Yorker > > I am prone to cynicism around the ability of > > Europeans to live together, (one war every 25 years for > > the past 1000 years). e.g. From the usefulness of the window > > shutters in Geneva, with the guns and one month food > > supply required by law in the basement, to the doors on > > new apartments in Milan that are made of steel with > > steel rod bolts going in four directions to keep out marauding > > armies. > > Funny, but here in Europe we don't have an army that has bombed 21 countries > during the last 50 years (without having been attacked once). We also don't > have the high rates of murder and prisoners that your peaceful country has. > Nor do we need metal detectors in our schools to protect the kids from > each other, or security guards on our campus to prevent the kids from > massacrating their peers on Hitler's birthday. We also don't have > militia-men who kill dozens of civilians by blowing up a gov't building. > Geez, we don't even have racial riots in large cities after some state > officers have beaten up a citizen for his race. > > But I'm sure we'll have all that pretty soon if we follow the lead of your > peace-loving and tolerant country, Ray. > > > > You see I live in NYCity and we take a rather jaundiced > > look at people who gather together to kill their neighbors or > > steal their homes. > > Jaundiced indeed for a city that was built on just that. > > > Greetings from a multi-cultural European country > that had _2_ short (defense) wars in the last 500 years > (but I guess this can't be read in your informative NYT), > > Chris > >
Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I)
I feel very strongly as you. I worry about a nuclear exchange. Why not appear at a local protest against the war. Media coverage of protesters will do more to stop things than any amount of talk and flames on this or any list. thanx arthur cordell -- From: Eva Durant To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I) Date: Friday, May 14, 1999 12:07PM I have the feeling, that if a conflict has a chance (and this one has) to ignite WWlll, than we should talk about nothing else but how to stop insanity. Not much futurework in a destroyed world... Eva Durant > I am re-posting our caveat of a few weeks ago. The war is front and center > with all of us. Discussions about it could easily > swamp all the lists on the net. So Sally and I appeal to all FWers and > your netizen ideals and values to keep futurework to its main discussion > focus. Thanx. > > = > Dear faithful FWers. > > There is obviously a great deal of emotion and concern about events in > Yugoslavia. War is a serious thing. However the futurework list was set up > for a purpose. If we allow postings on this or that side of events > regarding the war it is clear that a new thread on the war will begin. It > is likely that such a thread would overwhelm postings concerning futurework. > Thus we ask that you keep your postings to the general area indicated by our > futurework notices and that you direct your postings vis-a-vis the war and > related matters to those lists more relevant to events underway in > Yugoslavia and neighbouring countries. > > Thank you > > Sally Lerner and Arthur Cordell > > -- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: Ray E. Harrell; Michel Chossudovsky > Subject: Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I) > Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 4:17PM > > On Fri, 14 May 1999 02:26:20 -0400, Ray E. Harrell wrote: > > One point in all of this is that as an immigrant New Yorker > > I am prone to cynicism around the ability of > > Europeans to live together, (one war every 25 years for > > the past 1000 years). e.g. From the usefulness of the window > > shutters in Geneva, with the guns and one month food > > supply required by law in the basement, to the doors on > > new apartments in Milan that are made of steel with > > steel rod bolts going in four directions to keep out marauding > > armies. > > Funny, but here in Europe we don't have an army that has bombed 21 countries > during the last 50 years (without having been attacked once). We also don't > have the high rates of murder and prisoners that your peaceful country has. > Nor do we need metal detectors in our schools to protect the kids from > each other, or security guards on our campus to prevent the kids from > massacrating their peers on Hitler's birthday. We also don't have > militia-men who kill dozens of civilians by blowing up a gov't building. > Geez, we don't even have racial riots in large cities after some state > officers have beaten up a citizen for his race. > > But I'm sure we'll have all that pretty soon if we follow the lead of your > peace-loving and tolerant country, Ray. > > > > You see I live in NYCity and we take a rather jaundiced > > look at people who gather together to kill their neighbors or > > steal their homes. > > Jaundiced indeed for a city that was built on just that. > > > Greetings from a multi-cultural European country > that had _2_ short (defense) wars in the last 500 years > (but I guess this can't be read in your informative NYT), > > Chris > >
Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I)
I am re-posting our caveat of a few weeks ago. The war is front and center with all of us. Discussions about it could easily swamp all the lists on the net. So Sally and I appeal to all FWers and your netizen ideals and values to keep futurework to its main discussion focus. Thanx. = Dear faithful FWers. There is obviously a great deal of emotion and concern about events in Yugoslavia. War is a serious thing. However the futurework list was set up for a purpose. If we allow postings on this or that side of events regarding the war it is clear that a new thread on the war will begin. It is likely that such a thread would overwhelm postings concerning futurework. Thus we ask that you keep your postings to the general area indicated by our futurework notices and that you direct your postings vis-a-vis the war and related matters to those lists more relevant to events underway in Yugoslavia and neighbouring countries. Thank you Sally Lerner and Arthur Cordell -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Ray E. Harrell; Michel Chossudovsky Subject: Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I) Date: Thursday, May 13, 1999 4:17PM On Fri, 14 May 1999 02:26:20 -0400, Ray E. Harrell wrote: > One point in all of this is that as an immigrant New Yorker > I am prone to cynicism around the ability of > Europeans to live together, (one war every 25 years for > the past 1000 years). e.g. From the usefulness of the window > shutters in Geneva, with the guns and one month food > supply required by law in the basement, to the doors on > new apartments in Milan that are made of steel with > steel rod bolts going in four directions to keep out marauding > armies. Funny, but here in Europe we don't have an army that has bombed 21 countries during the last 50 years (without having been attacked once). We also don't have the high rates of murder and prisoners that your peaceful country has. Nor do we need metal detectors in our schools to protect the kids from each other, or security guards on our campus to prevent the kids from massacrating their peers on Hitler's birthday. We also don't have militia-men who kill dozens of civilians by blowing up a gov't building. Geez, we don't even have racial riots in large cities after some state officers have beaten up a citizen for his race. But I'm sure we'll have all that pretty soon if we follow the lead of your peace-loving and tolerant country, Ray. > You see I live in NYCity and we take a rather jaundiced > look at people who gather together to kill their neighbors or > steal their homes. Jaundiced indeed for a city that was built on just that. Greetings from a multi-cultural European country that had _2_ short (defense) wars in the last 500 years (but I guess this can't be read in your informative NYT), Chris
Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I)
>Funny, but here in Europe we don't have an army that has bombed 21countries>during the last 50 years (without having been attacked once). We alsodon't>have the high rates of murder and prisoners that your peaceful country has.>Nor do we need metal detectors in our schools to protect the kids from>each other, or security guards on our campus to prevent the kids from>massacrating their peers on Hitler's birthday. We also don't have>militia-men who kill dozens of civilians by blowing up a gov't building.>Geez, we don't even have racial riots in large cities after some state>officers have beaten up a citizen for his race.>>But I'm sure we'll have all that pretty soon if we follow the lead of your>peace-loving and tolerant country, Ray.How beautifully smug! I understand that your bankers made quite a lot ofmoney from the gold and jewelry that the Nazis took from death-camp victims.Europe, if you read its history, was a cesspool of wars, repressions andmass exterminations. And it was Europeans who brought diseases andenslavement to the Americas, accounting for the destruction of civilizationsand the deaths of perhaps 100 million people. I'm sorry, I didn't mean toget into this one, but on reading the above self-congratulatory puffery, Ijust couldn't help it. But perhaps I misunderstood. Perhaps you intent wassome form of comic irony.Ed Weick
Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I)
The swiss were pretty rich and smug before Hitler's time. It is a good example, that if the society is effluent enough, the ethnic strife becomes a thing of the past. (Doesn't make them all that friendly and guest-loving though...) However, given our beloved capitalism, such peaceful, prosperous times are transient; insecurity and poverty will bring out all the alienation and aggressivity wherever you are whichever minority/majority is persecuted as the alleged cause for all misery. It could even happen to the swiss given an implosion of the financial/tourist/cookoo clock sector... Eva > >Funny, but here in Europe we don't have an army that has bombed 21 > countries > >during the last 50 years (without having been attacked once). We also > don't > >have the high rates of murder and prisoners that your peaceful country has. > >Nor do we need metal detectors in our schools to protect the kids from > >each other, or security guards on our campus to prevent the kids from > >massacrating their peers on Hitler's birthday. We also don't have > >militia-men who kill dozens of civilians by blowing up a gov't building. > >Geez, we don't even have racial riots in large cities after some state > >officers have beaten up a citizen for his race. > > > >But I'm sure we'll have all that pretty soon if we follow the lead of your > >peace-loving and tolerant country, Ray. > > > How beautifully smug! I understand that your bankers made quite a lot of > money from the gold and jewelry that the Nazis took from death-camp victims. > Europe, if you read its history, was a cesspool of wars, repressions and > mass exterminations. And it was Europeans who brought diseases and > enslavement to the Americas, accounting for the destruction of civilizations > and the deaths of perhaps 100 million people. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to > get into this one, but on reading the above self-congratulatory puffery, I > just couldn't help it. But perhaps I misunderstood. Perhaps you intent was > some form of comic irony. > > Ed Weick [text/html is unsupported, treating like TEXT/PLAIN] > > > > > > > > > >Funny, but here in Europe we don't have an army that has bombed > 21countries>during the last 50 years (without having been attacked > once). We alsodon't>have the high rates of murder and prisoners > that your peaceful country has.>Nor do we need metal detectors in our > schools to protect the kids from>each other, or security guards on our > campus to prevent the kids from>massacrating their peers on Hitler's > birthday. We also don't have>militia-men who kill dozens of > civilians by blowing up a gov't building.>Geez, we don't even have racial > riots in large cities after some state>officers have beaten up a citizen > for his race.>>But I'm sure we'll have all that pretty soon if we > follow the lead of your>peace-loving and tolerant country, > Ray.How beautifully smug! I understand that your bankers > made quite a lot ofmoney from the gold and jewelry that the Nazis took from > death-camp victims.Europe, if you read its history, was a cesspool of wars, > repressions andmass exterminations. And it was Europeans who brought > diseases andenslavement to the Americas, accounting for the destruction of > civilizationsand the deaths of perhaps 100 million people. I'm sorry, > I didn't mean toget into this one, but on reading the above > self-congratulatory puffery, Ijust couldn't help it. But perhaps I > misunderstood. Perhaps you intent wassome form of comic > irony.Ed Weick
Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I)
What media coverage? We only got to know about the displeasure of some german greens about the war, when Joshka Fisher had paint thrown at his face. All debates against the bombing were under-reported, demonstrations non-reported. At least some well-informed lists should do some more informing such as passing on info about what to do. O don't know, that's why I am angry and frustrated. eva > I feel very strongly as you. I worry about a nuclear exchange. Why not > appear at a local protest against the war. Media coverage of protesters > will do more to stop things than any amount of talk and flames on this or > any list. > > > arthur cordell
Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I)
Ed Weick replied: > How beautifully smug! I understand that your bankers made quite a lot of > money from the gold and jewelry that the Nazis took from death-camp victims. > Europe, if you read its history, was a cesspool of wars, repressions and > mass exterminations. And it was Europeans who brought diseases and > enslavement to the Americas, accounting for the destruction of civilizations > and the deaths of perhaps 100 million people. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to > get into this one, but on reading the above self-congratulatory puffery, I > just couldn't help it. But perhaps I misunderstood. Perhaps you intent was > some form of comic irony. Basically my smug description of Europe was a parody of Ray's smug description of America (or vice-versa for the negative descriptions). Then again, your above criticism misses the point as it talks of the (distant) past, whereas my comparisions referred to the present (according to Ray's appeal to "live in the present"). [And much could be said about the role of US bankers in nazi/other wars.] Sorry for the off-topic post, the following one is on-topic... Chris
Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I)
Christoph Reuss wrote: > Ed Weick replied: > > How beautifully smug! I understand that your bankers made quite a lot of > > money from the gold and jewelry that the Nazis took from death-camp victims. > > Europe, if you read its history, was a cesspool of wars, repressions and > > mass exterminations. And it was Europeans who brought diseases and > > enslavement to the Americas, accounting for the destruction of civilizations > > and the deaths of perhaps 100 million people. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to > > get into this one, but on reading the above self-congratulatory puffery, I > > just couldn't help it. But perhaps I misunderstood. Perhaps you intent was > > some form of comic irony. > > Basically my smug description of Europe was a parody of Ray's smug > description of America (or vice-versa for the negative descriptions). I have no idea how you could see anything that I have written as defending the history of European Americans on this continent past present andI am quite cynical about the future as well. The gist of my post was threefold:1. I stated that an issue (such as the one described by the Yugoslaveconomist from Toronto) which is "listed" , "described' and "understood" rarely creates change and is not an answer too whatever the problem is. It is simply an inadequate process in my opinion. I said: >So you have to come up with a better script than "Describe >the history", "list the atrocities" and everyone will "understand" >and thus change! 2. The problem that economist Chussudovsky mentioned is not new but is a common process that springs from the belief that financial, i.e. economic value, constitutes real value in the world. In that sense every economist who preaches economic value above community morality or the growth of the human consciousness or spirit is a collaborator in what Chussodovsky is complaining about. I simply do not believe that this value system can end in anything other than human conflict and death. I used Wagner as an example because his own continual harassment by bankers and others who refused to pay him royalties (an Intellectual Capital issue) while reducing him to a pauper in relation to his need for Physical Capital both for common needs and the productions of his work has been used and abused by people on all sides of the political, religious and cultural spectrum. The greatest composer and theoretical mind of the 19th century was forced into prison and ran from country to country while writing his greatest works. There were 3 and 1/2 million refugees washing across the face of Europe as the economists and aristocracy played their games. The king of Bavaria said that he would have executed Wagner for his philosophical support of the Democracy movement in Dresden where he was being paid a pittance for masterworks and conducting as well. All to say this is not new. Nor is it old for people like my sister to be abducted by a government and sent thousands of miles from family, friends and culture to a school to drive the Indian out. Or for Gypsy children, like the Bolshoi ballerina studying with me at present, to be abducted by the Swiss government and put with Gadje families who were supposed to drive out the culture from their genetics as well. Luckily for the ballerina she was first in Russia and later Denmark where her talent was honored and she received exceptional instruction rather than being put in jail for "stealing children" or some other lie. I said: >Don't you know all of those Schubert, Schumann, Brahms and >Mahler songs dealing with the European people on the other >side of those bankers? 3. And finally I said: >Goodness is not cultural and neither is greed or evil. >(I wrote about the church in my last post so I don't >consider it to be an answer either.) But the issue of >living together is one that we must solve and doing it >creatively must also happen or we are doomed to be >replaced. (by another species.) > Then again, your above criticism misses the point as it talks of the > (distant) past, whereas my comparisions referred to the present > (according to Ray's appeal to "live in the present"). Not a bad idea, "truly living in the present" although I can't findthe phrase in that post. Perhaps you could post what you are referencing as I am in this case. That would make it simpler. > [And much > could be said about the role of US bankers in nazi/other wars.] I agree and you could list Henry Ford as well. Lest you believe that I am against Europeans or the Swiss in particular, I would say that it may be true that a Swiss person saying what I have said would be expressing those feelings. However, in my case as I have said over the years on this list that you should not mistake passion for a curse. I have taught voice to wonderful Swiss students and one of my favorite teachers sang in Zurich at the opera for many years. I seek only solutions and discussion. I do not have the answers but I do have m
Re: Destruction of Albania (Part I) [my final reply on this]
REH wrote: > > > > Basically my smug description of Europe was a parody of Ray's smug > > description of America (or vice-versa for the negative descriptions). > > I have no idea how you could see > anything that I have written as defending the history of > European Americans on this continent past present andI am quite cynical about > the future as well. I objected to your sweeping generalization of 08-May that "In Europe they are eating each other, here we are feeding each other." which is a crass misrepresentation of reality for most places. > 2. The problem that economist Chussudovsky mentioned is not > new but is a common process that springs from the belief that > financial, i.e. economic value, constitutes real value in the > world. In that sense every economist who preaches economic > value above community morality or the growth of the human > consciousness or spirit is a collaborator in what Chussodovsky > is complaining about. I simply do not believe that this value > system can end in anything other than human conflict and death. I think the point of Michel Chossudovsky is that economical developments have a big influence on human conflicts, so much so that they are even a motor of conflict. This is a basic element of independent conflict research, and I assume we can all agree on that. Realizing a cause is the first step (and the precondition) to effectively treat it. > > > Then again, your above criticism misses the point as it talks of the > > (distant) past, whereas my comparisions referred to the present > > (according to Ray's appeal to "live in the present"). > > Not a bad idea, "truly living in the present" although I can't findthe > phrase in that post. Perhaps you could post what you are > referencing as I am in this case. That would make it simpler. On Sat, 08 May 1999 20:45:24 -0400, you wrote: > > > But Chris, in spite of all of this, [my father] taught us to live in > > > the present. The danger of living in the present is to forget the past and to ignore the impacts of present decisions on the future -- both is a 'good' recipe to repeat the mistakes of the past and to mess up the future. Clinton and many Americans are clearly "living in the present" and the results are accordingly. Let's leave "living in the present" up to animals -- humans have developed a brain to remember the past and to project the future. > All to say this is not new. Nor is it old for people like my > sister to be abducted by a government and sent thousands > of miles from family, friends and culture to a school to > drive the Indian out. Or for Gypsy children, like the Bolshoi > ballerina studying with me at present, to be abducted by the > Swiss government and put with Gadje families who were > supposed to drive out the culture from their genetics as well. There is no way to compare the oppression and destruction of Native Americans by the US gov't with the handling of Gypsies by the Swiss gov't. Nobody was "abducted by the Swiss government" -- there have been wrong-doings by a social foundation which had the task of ensuring the education of Gypsy children. These wrong-doings were stopped 26 years ago, and since then, the Swiss gov't has spent millions of dollars to investigate the cases and to pay compensations (did the US gov't do anything similar for Natives?). An independent study came to the conclusion that "the main guilt of the authorities was lack of control of this foundation." Please check your facts better before handing out random accusations and sweeping generalizations. > Last week I also heard the National Rifle Association use > the Swiss requirement for weapons and food in their > basements as a justification for the free flow of firearms > in America no matter how many street gangs, drug lords > or disgruntled adolescents have them. The NRA's argument is really ironic, because "the Swiss requirement for weapons" is limited to the personal _military_ gun of each _soldier_ and has nothing to do with the free flow of _private_ firearms (which is more strictly regulated in Switzerland than in the US) that the NRA wants. > In my opinion we suffer from a poverty of workable non-violent > models and imagination. IMHO Switzerland offers such a model and has offered it for a long time now (even _before_ it was rich), not only internally but also externally (Red Cross etc.), but it seems that the powers-that-be are more interested in tearing down this model and (dis)"integrating" it into the imperialist EU, instead of adopting this model. It is "in the way" of the "New World Order", like the Yugoslavian model of non-aligned socialism was. Chris
