Re: [fw-general] Smarty Poll Question

[Tony Ford]

Sure, I won't disagree with any of your points, but I'm choosing to not 
"assume" anything. That's why we benchmark.


- Tony

On 9/29/2008 1:41 AM, Karol Grecki wrote:
Rendering views is usually not a bottleneck in any application. 
Even if Smarty is slow, it should still account for a just a fraction of

total request time.
I'm not big on Smarty so normally I wouldn't hold you back,  but I think
your intentions are misplaced. 
Performance is the last thing I would worry about in this case. 
Features and simplicity, that's a different story.


Karol


Tony Ford wrote:
  
Well I'm obviously not going to refactor anything if there is no 
noticeable performance gain. Hence, my whole entire point of 
benchmarking in the first place.


Are you asserting its a waste of time to see if zend view is faster than 
smarty? I have my doubts about how well smarty compiles templates into 
php. For more complicated templates there could be a decent difference 
between the php smarty produces and what a seasoned web developer can 
write using zend view. And let's not dismiss a lot of the nice feature 
benefits of zend view over smarty, especially some of the integration 
with other zend framework components, dojo, and the active continued 
development of zend view. You have to be honest that feature wise, in 
the long term, zend view is more attractive than smarty.


 - Tony




  

Re: [fw-general] Smarty Poll Question

[Karol Grecki]

Rendering views is usually not a bottleneck in any application. 
Even if Smarty is slow, it should still account for a just a fraction of
total request time.
I'm not big on Smarty so normally I wouldn't hold you back,  but I think
your intentions are misplaced. 
Performance is the last thing I would worry about in this case. 
Features and simplicity, that's a different story.

Karol


Tony Ford wrote:
> 
> Well I'm obviously not going to refactor anything if there is no 
> noticeable performance gain. Hence, my whole entire point of 
> benchmarking in the first place.
> 
> Are you asserting its a waste of time to see if zend view is faster than 
> smarty? I have my doubts about how well smarty compiles templates into 
> php. For more complicated templates there could be a decent difference 
> between the php smarty produces and what a seasoned web developer can 
> write using zend view. And let's not dismiss a lot of the nice feature 
> benefits of zend view over smarty, especially some of the integration 
> with other zend framework components, dojo, and the active continued 
> development of zend view. You have to be honest that feature wise, in 
> the long term, zend view is more attractive than smarty.
> 
>  - Tony
> 

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Re: [fw-general] Smarty Poll Question

[Tony Ford]

Well I'm obviously not going to refactor anything if there is no 
noticeable performance gain. Hence, my whole entire point of 
benchmarking in the first place.


Are you asserting its a waste of time to see if zend view is faster than 
smarty? I have my doubts about how well smarty compiles templates into 
php. For more complicated templates there could be a decent difference 
between the php smarty produces and what a seasoned web developer can 
write using zend view. And let's not dismiss a lot of the nice feature 
benefits of zend view over smarty, especially some of the integration 
with other zend framework components, dojo, and the active continued 
development of zend view. You have to be honest that feature wise, in 
the long term, zend view is more attractive than smarty.


- Tony

On 9/25/2008 1:33 AM, Karol Grecki wrote:

It's unlikely that you will see any significant speed difference between the
two.
You're better off making sure that everything is cached properly instead of
wasting time on refactoring.

Karol


Tony Ford wrote:
  
We still use smarty for basic legacy reasons. I'm interested in running 
some benchmarks between zend view and smarty. If there is a significant 
performance increase I'll consider refactoring all of our views over time.


I plan to do our own benchmarking in the next couple of months, so I'll 
share that later. Anyone else done any benchmarking?


 - Tony

On 9/24/2008 1:23 PM, Karol Grecki wrote:


Used it few years ago when css adoption was poor and there were no decent
mvc
frameworks. Nowadays it's no longer necessary. It's also old php4 code
that
I'd rather stay away from.

Karol


Garrison Locke wrote:
  
  

I know this usually starts a big war, but I was just curious about how
many people out there are using Smarty and to what extent you're using
it?
 If you're not using it, why did you decide to not use it?  If you are,
why?  Also, if you're using it, how big or small are the projects?  Just
personal things or like giant things with tens of thousands of users.

Thanks!

Garrison



  

Re: [fw-general] Smarty Poll Question

[Karol Grecki]

It's unlikely that you will see any significant speed difference between the
two.
You're better off making sure that everything is cached properly instead of
wasting time on refactoring.

Karol


Tony Ford wrote:
> 
> We still use smarty for basic legacy reasons. I'm interested in running 
> some benchmarks between zend view and smarty. If there is a significant 
> performance increase I'll consider refactoring all of our views over time.
> 
> I plan to do our own benchmarking in the next couple of months, so I'll 
> share that later. Anyone else done any benchmarking?
> 
>  - Tony
> 
> On 9/24/2008 1:23 PM, Karol Grecki wrote:
>> Used it few years ago when css adoption was poor and there were no decent
>> mvc
>> frameworks. Nowadays it's no longer necessary. It's also old php4 code
>> that
>> I'd rather stay away from.
>>
>> Karol
>>
>>
>> Garrison Locke wrote:
>>   
>>> I know this usually starts a big war, but I was just curious about how
>>> many people out there are using Smarty and to what extent you're using
>>> it?
>>>  If you're not using it, why did you decide to not use it?  If you are,
>>> why?  Also, if you're using it, how big or small are the projects?  Just
>>> personal things or like giant things with tens of thousands of users.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Garrison
> 

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RE: [fw-general] Smarty Poll Question

[Wil Sinclair]

Tony, I suggest you wait until a 1.7 release candidate to do your
benchmarks; the ZF team at Zend is focusing on performance enhancements
for this release. While I don't know of any specific enhancements for
Zend_View right now, I know that it will be one of the components we'll
be looking at.

,Wil

> -Original Message-
> From: Tony Ford [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 2:40 PM
> To: fw-general@lists.zend.com
> Subject: Re: [fw-general] Smarty Poll Question
> 
> We still use smarty for basic legacy reasons. I'm interested in
running
> some benchmarks between zend view and smarty. If there is a
significant
> performance increase I'll consider refactoring all of our views over
> time.
> 
> I plan to do our own benchmarking in the next couple of months, so
I'll
> share that later. Anyone else done any benchmarking?
> 
>  - Tony
> 
> On 9/24/2008 1:23 PM, Karol Grecki wrote:
> > Used it few years ago when css adoption was poor and there were no
> decent mvc
> > frameworks. Nowadays it's no longer necessary. It's also old php4
> code that
> > I'd rather stay away from.
> >
> > Karol
> >
> >
> > Garrison Locke wrote:
> >
> >> I know this usually starts a big war, but I was just curious about
> how
> >> many people out there are using Smarty and to what extent you're
> using it?
> >>  If you're not using it, why did you decide to not use it?  If you
> are,
> >> why?  Also, if you're using it, how big or small are the projects?
> Just
> >> personal things or like giant things with tens of thousands of
> users.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Garrison
> >>
> >>
> >
> >

Re: [fw-general] Smarty Poll Question

[Tony Ford]

We still use smarty for basic legacy reasons. I'm interested in running 
some benchmarks between zend view and smarty. If there is a significant 
performance increase I'll consider refactoring all of our views over time.


I plan to do our own benchmarking in the next couple of months, so I'll 
share that later. Anyone else done any benchmarking?


- Tony

On 9/24/2008 1:23 PM, Karol Grecki wrote:

Used it few years ago when css adoption was poor and there were no decent mvc
frameworks. Nowadays it's no longer necessary. It's also old php4 code that
I'd rather stay away from.

Karol


Garrison Locke wrote:
  

I know this usually starts a big war, but I was just curious about how
many people out there are using Smarty and to what extent you're using it?
 If you're not using it, why did you decide to not use it?  If you are,
why?  Also, if you're using it, how big or small are the projects?  Just
personal things or like giant things with tens of thousands of users.

Thanks!

Garrison




  

Re: [fw-general] Smarty Poll Question

[Karol Grecki]

Used it few years ago when css adoption was poor and there were no decent mvc
frameworks. Nowadays it's no longer necessary. It's also old php4 code that
I'd rather stay away from.

Karol


Garrison Locke wrote:
> 
> I know this usually starts a big war, but I was just curious about how
> many people out there are using Smarty and to what extent you're using it?
>  If you're not using it, why did you decide to not use it?  If you are,
> why?  Also, if you're using it, how big or small are the projects?  Just
> personal things or like giant things with tens of thousands of users.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Garrison
> 

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Re: [fw-general] Smarty Poll Question

[Michael Patrick]

Garrison Locke wrote:

I know this usually starts a big war, but I was just curious about how
many people out there are using Smarty and to what extent you're using it?
 If you're not using it, why did you decide to not use it?  If you are,
why?  Also, if you're using it, how big or small are the projects?  Just
personal things or like giant things with tens of thousands of users.


We use Smarty on the main project where I work.  Back when the project 
started Zend_View was primitive and we thought Smarty hiding the PHP 
might be more friendly in the future to the army of frontend UI 
specialists we were going to be hiring.


Fast-forward a couple of years... no horde of UI people and that project 
still uses Smarty but only because I don't have the time to rip it out 
and replace it. Generally it annoys me every time I have to open a TPL 
file.


All new development is straight Zend_View.

Michael

Re: [fw-general] Smarty Poll Question

[till]

On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 8:58 PM, Garrison Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know this usually starts a big war, but I was just curious about how
> many people out there are using Smarty and to what extent you're using it?
>  If you're not using it, why did you decide to not use it?  If you are,
> why?  Also, if you're using it, how big or small are the projects?  Just
> personal things or like giant things with tens of thousands of users.

Been using it extensively for the past 8 or so years.

Only with recent projects (~2 years) we migrated away from Smarty on
most projects. I still take care of some legacy code that uses it but
whenever I had the pleasure to start from scratch, I did not use
Smarty.

The number one reason being that a MVC framework like ZendFramework or
CodeIgniter takes /good/ care of seperating business logic and
presentation layer already. No need to put another layer in between
it. I like the helper code, etc.. It reminds me very much of modifiers
and inserts.

Projects where I had used Smarty included websites for the biggest
soda brand in the world, Intranet projects for a company selling an
energy drink, different CMS systems for news portals and so on.
There's really no limit as of where I used it over the years. I don't
like people bashing it, so I should add (and emphasize) that it always
served me very well.

Till

Re: [fw-general] Smarty Poll Question

[Peter Wansch]

We looked into using Smarty for a brand new project but determined that using
Zend_Layout with Zend_Controller MVC satisfied all our requirements re. view
separation and using templates. Also page caching with Zend_Cache works
nicely with MVC and we use a Zend_Acl based plugin for security. We could
not come up with any reason why to use Smarty with the Zend_Framework unless
you are using it for legacy reasons.
Peter


Garrison Locke wrote:
> 
> I know this usually starts a big war, but I was just curious about how
> many people out there are using Smarty and to what extent you're using it?
>  If you're not using it, why did you decide to not use it?  If you are,
> why?  Also, if you're using it, how big or small are the projects?  Just
> personal things or like giant things with tens of thousands of users.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Garrison
> 
> 
> -- 
> Garrison Locke
> Lead Dynamic Functionality Specialist
> OIT - Outreach Technology
> NC State University
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 

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Re: [fw-general] Smarty Poll Question

[Bradley Holt]

Garrison,

Good to see you on the list (we met at ZendCon)! I used to use Smarty but
stopped using it a couple of years ago. The main reason I used Smarty was to
separate display and business logic. Zend Framework's MVC components provide
the separation I need and make it so there is no reason for me to use
Smarty. I like the simplicity of using PHP as a templating language in the
view - after all, PHP has historically been used for creating dynamic HTML
content, why reinvent the wheel? On a side note, I have been experimenting
with using HTML microformats as a templating language (see
plainTemplatefor
an example), but that's a discussion for another day.

Thanks,
Bradley

On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Garrison Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I know this usually starts a big war, but I was just curious about how
> many people out there are using Smarty and to what extent you're using it?
>  If you're not using it, why did you decide to not use it?  If you are,
> why?  Also, if you're using it, how big or small are the projects?  Just
> personal things or like giant things with tens of thousands of users.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Garrison
>
>
> --
> Garrison Locke
> Lead Dynamic Functionality Specialist
> OIT - Outreach Technology
> NC State University
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>



-- 
Bradley Holt
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [fw-general] Smarty Poll Question

[Matthew Ratzloff]

Giant things are tens of thousands of users?  :-)
We use Smarty for a variety of sites that generate a lot of traffic
(television networks, telecoms).  With proper caching, it does fine.  But
developer sanity suffers (for both front end and back end developers).  We
have a lot of experience with Smarty, and I would recommend against using
it.  We all dislike it to various degrees.  But we're stuck with it.

If we could do it all over again I think we'd just use straight PHP (with
Zend_View), or look more closely at XSLT and PHPTAL (get benchmarks, etc.).
 XSLT could work nicely with an API middle tier, but our front end guys
might not like it.

-Matt

On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Garrison Locke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I know this usually starts a big war, but I was just curious about how
> many people out there are using Smarty and to what extent you're using it?
>  If you're not using it, why did you decide to not use it?  If you are,
> why?  Also, if you're using it, how big or small are the projects?  Just
> personal things or like giant things with tens of thousands of users.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Garrison
>
>
> --
> Garrison Locke
> Lead Dynamic Functionality Specialist
> OIT - Outreach Technology
> NC State University
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>

[fw-general] Smarty Poll Question

[Garrison Locke]

I know this usually starts a big war, but I was just curious about how
many people out there are using Smarty and to what extent you're using it?
 If you're not using it, why did you decide to not use it?  If you are,
why?  Also, if you're using it, how big or small are the projects?  Just
personal things or like giant things with tens of thousands of users.

Thanks!

Garrison


-- 
Garrison Locke
Lead Dynamic Functionality Specialist
OIT - Outreach Technology
NC State University
[EMAIL PROTECTED]