Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
Ah yes. It is in the reference guide but not the API docs. From looking through tutorials that started talking about this feature, I then turned to the API for exact details on the function. As you showed, it was in the reference guide, which I did not check on this occasion. And as it where, I do like to understand all the bits of a component when I'm learning about it. I do like to know how things work so I might be able to use it better. cheers! Fozzy Daniel Latter wrote: Dont know what docs you were reading:? http://framework.zend.com/manual/en/zend.view.helpers.html#zend.view.helpers.initial.headtitle Also, you dont have to learn everything about a componant to use it, which it sounds like what you are trying to do. The survive the deepend book goes through creating a Blog App while touching base with many of the popular componanents as has been stated so this may be a good place to start if you want a tutorial in creating a ZF App. Thanks. 2009/11/25 Fozzyuw jmbertu...@gmail.com: Thanks for all the suggestions and the discussion. I've been using ZF for probably over a year now, if not longer. But it's been so on/off that I might miss a few big releases and then I find some big changes. For example, I started using and practicing with ZF before Zend_layout. I bought some early books on it. Followed along. Did tutorials. Had no problems, even as I learned about MVC, which conceptually is easy to understand. Then, I stopped for a bit, Zend_Layout came out, and everything was changed. I started over learning Zend_Layout, stopped... and Zend_Form comes out. I spent time learning that, rinse repeat. The problem is I tend to keep hitting brick walls. I'm trying to learn something like using Zend_Navigation. Being a programmer by degree, I'm fine using the API. But even the API doesn't tell me everything because I'm looking through the Zend_Navigation code and I realize it's not the Navigation class, it's a View Helper. It gets to the point that I start reading the source code. For something like the Header Title element. The API doesn't state you can APPEND, PREPEND, or SET as your three options. I had to pop open the source to figure that out. It gets royally confusing until you actually get such a big foundation of knowledge built up on ZF that it becomes more second hand. On top of that, there's best practices that come with MVC that's outside of understanding what MVC is and how it works. Should this code be put into a Model class? Or is it part of the View? Those kind of questions. Perhaps this Survive the Deepend online book is what I've been looking for. It certainly sounds exactly what I'm feeling. I really want to learn ZF inside-out and even start writing my own tutorials at some point, when I get that good, but right now I'm getting frustrated trying to find a guided course to just transition some simple sites I have now into ZF. I think ZF has tons of potential and it does have a lot of reference material, but I feel there's a lot left out. As someone else said, a bit passive aggressive. It's to the point that I feel like just going back to doing my own thing for a framework because it takes so long to put things together. Cheers for the suggestions, though! -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p787846.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p788343.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
[fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
Hi all, I've been watching and playing with ZF for some time now. Never very deeply at any given time and often putting it down for extended periods of time (version releases). One thing that keeps happening is that ZF is growing quickly. Which is good, but it's also hard to keep up. I'm getting to the point where I'm rather quite lost. The Programmer's Reference Guides (PRG) on the website are good, but often very limited in scope, never offering much of the complete package. So, my question is, where does one find a great ZF resource that does a good job introducing ZF and explaining how everything fits together with both independent examples (like PRG offers) and integration into a larger overall project? A book I had on ZF a year ago is beyond outdated. Not even having references to Zend_Layout and now there are some nice tools like Zend_Navigation to learn. On top of trying to understand the dispatch process and it's relation to helpers and overall MVC best practices. So, as an experienced PHP programmer but someone who's looking wanting to get the whole picture on how to best start utilizing ZF, where does one begin? Cheers! Fozzy -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p787666.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
http://www.survivethedeepend.com/ Thanks. 2009/11/25 Fozzyuw jmbertu...@gmail.com Hi all, I've been watching and playing with ZF for some time now. Never very deeply at any given time and often putting it down for extended periods of time (version releases). One thing that keeps happening is that ZF is growing quickly. Which is good, but it's also hard to keep up. I'm getting to the point where I'm rather quite lost. The Programmer's Reference Guides (PRG) on the website are good, but often very limited in scope, never offering much of the complete package. So, my question is, where does one find a great ZF resource that does a good job introducing ZF and explaining how everything fits together with both independent examples (like PRG offers) and integration into a larger overall project? A book I had on ZF a year ago is beyond outdated. Not even having references to Zend_Layout and now there are some nice tools like Zend_Navigation to learn. On top of trying to understand the dispatch process and it's relation to helpers and overall MVC best practices. So, as an experienced PHP programmer but someone who's looking wanting to get the whole picture on how to best start utilizing ZF, where does one begin? Cheers! Fozzy -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p787666.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
Hi, You might try these video tutorials. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmyqf4cvKHE On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 5:52 PM, Fozzyuw jmbertu...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I've been watching and playing with ZF for some time now. Never very deeply at any given time and often putting it down for extended periods of time (version releases). One thing that keeps happening is that ZF is growing quickly. Which is good, but it's also hard to keep up. I'm getting to the point where I'm rather quite lost. The Programmer's Reference Guides (PRG) on the website are good, but often very limited in scope, never offering much of the complete package. So, my question is, where does one find a great ZF resource that does a good job introducing ZF and explaining how everything fits together with both independent examples (like PRG offers) and integration into a larger overall project? A book I had on ZF a year ago is beyond outdated. Not even having references to Zend_Layout and now there are some nice tools like Zend_Navigation to learn. On top of trying to understand the dispatch process and it's relation to helpers and overall MVC best practices. So, as an experienced PHP programmer but someone who's looking wanting to get the whole picture on how to best start utilizing ZF, where does one begin? Cheers! Fozzy -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p787666.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Met vriendelijke groet, Jigal Sanders A.J. Ernststraat 739 1082 LK Amsterdam Mobiel: 06-42111489
Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
Thanks, Daniel ;) Survive The Deep End isn't complete but it covers almost anything worth mentioning when starting out. I'll be kicking out more chapters pretty soon - it's turned into a longer term project since it started. Paddy Pádraic Brady http://blog.astrumfutura.com http://www.survivethedeepend.com OpenID Europe Foundation Irish Representative From: Daniel Latter dan.lat...@gmail.com To: Fozzyuw jmbertu...@gmail.com Cc: Zend Framework General fw-general@lists.zend.com Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 4:59:22 PM Subject: Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin? http://www.survivethedeepend.com/ Thanks. 2009/11/25 Fozzyuw jmbertu...@gmail.com Hi all, I've been watching and playing with ZF for some time now. Never very deeply at any given time and often putting it down for extended periods of time (version releases). One thing that keeps happening is that ZF is growing quickly. Which is good, but it's also hard to keep up. I'm getting to the point where I'm rather quite lost. The Programmer's Reference Guides (PRG) on the website are good, but often very limited in scope, never offering much of the complete package. So, my question is, where does one find a great ZF resource that does a good job introducing ZF and explaining how everything fits together with both independent examples (like PRG offers) and integration into a larger overall project? A book I had on ZF a year ago is beyond outdated. Not even having references to Zend_Layout and now there are some nice tools like Zend_Navigation to learn. On top of trying to understand the dispatch process and it's relation to helpers and overall MVC best practices. So, as an experienced PHP programmer but someone who's looking wanting to get the whole picture on how to best start utilizing ZF, where does one begin? Cheers! Fozzy -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p787666.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
So, as an experienced PHP programmer but someone who's looking wanting to get the whole picture on how to best start utilizing ZF, where does one begin? Like Daniel pointed Surviving The Deep End is a good book. The book is more a 'best practices' tutorial for the Zend Framework user. Being familiar with MVC components helps. The best way is to start writing an application using the Zend Framework. If you wish to make contributions to an open source project written using Zend Framework, I have suggestions. :) Many of us hang out on #zftalk on freenode.net IRC channel. Recently, I wrote a review of the book - Zend Framework 1.8 Web Application Development at http://techchorus.net/zend-framework-18-web-application-development-book-review . The review might help. -- With warm regards, Sudheer. S Tech stuff: http://techchorus.net Business: http://binaryvibes.co.in
Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
I want to second this post. I have used ZF for some projects earlier this year and I am right on the cusp of making a major decision: explore ZF 1.9 more deeply or abandon ZF and PHP altogether for Ruby on Rails. ZF Documentation seems almost passive aggressive, providing examples to get started, but lacking enough information to build, test, and deploy production quality, maintainable websites. Maybe it's a case of the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence but Ruby and RoR seem to be better suited to quickly and easily develop production quality websites. I don't want to start a ZF vs RoR discussion, though that might be interesting. I would like to hear how others have become proficient in building production websites using ZF. - Steve W. Fozzyuw wrote: Hi all, I've been watching and playing with ZF for some time now. Never very deeply at any given time and often putting it down for extended periods of time (version releases). One thing that keeps happening is that ZF is growing quickly. Which is good, but it's also hard to keep up. -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p787731.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
I've been very frustrated with ZF - specifically in regard to the lack of helpful how to and tutorial information. There is very little out there that is even close to up-to-date. If the official documentation wants developer to connect the dots on their own, it seems to leave a little too much room between the dots for me. I've developed many applications using ZF. I started using it well before many of the new components became available. It takes so much time and experimentation to figure out how to implement the new components that it almost seems impractical if you want to actually get something done (vs study and learn). I've also created applications using CI and Symfony and found those frameworks much better to use from the standpoint of being able to actually accomplish some work. The documentation and tutorial help is much more readily available and suited to an experience developer jumping in and getting work done. ZF seem more suited to academia than someone trying to run a business developing applications, IMHO. Rob Rob Riggen (802) 662-1069 r...@riggen.org On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:20 PM, swilhelm st...@studio831.com wrote: I want to second this post. I have used ZF for some projects earlier this year and I am right on the cusp of making a major decision: explore ZF 1.9 more deeply or abandon ZF and PHP altogether for Ruby on Rails. ZF Documentation seems almost passive aggressive, providing examples to get started, but lacking enough information to build, test, and deploy production quality, maintainable websites. Maybe it's a case of the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence but Ruby and RoR seem to be better suited to quickly and easily develop production quality websites. I don't want to start a ZF vs RoR discussion, though that might be interesting. I would like to hear how others have become proficient in building production websites using ZF. - Steve W. Fozzyuw wrote: Hi all, I've been watching and playing with ZF for some time now. Never very deeply at any given time and often putting it down for extended periods of time (version releases). One thing that keeps happening is that ZF is growing quickly. Which is good, but it's also hard to keep up. -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p787731.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
Personally speaking it's a case of practice, practice, practice. I feel documentation can only get you so far and it won't be a panecea or all your woes, like Sudheer says the best way is to get writing an app. What I found useful was use this list ( or any of ) watch the questions comin through, and compare replies with what you would have said, to the actual solution, if there is one, this is a great way to test and enhance your understanding. On 25 Nov b 2009, at 18:20, swilhelm st...@studio831.com wrote: I want to second this post. I have used ZF for some projects earlier this year and I am right on the cusp of making a major decision: explore ZF 1.9 more deeply or abandon ZF and PHP altogether for Ruby on Rails. ZF Documentation seems almost passive aggressive, providing examples to get started, but lacking enough information to build, test, and deploy production quality, maintainable websites. Maybe it's a case of the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence but Ruby and RoR seem to be better suited to quickly and easily develop production quality websites. I don't want to start a ZF vs RoR discussion, though that might be interesting. I would like to hear how others have become proficient in building production websites using ZF. - Steve W. Fozzyuw wrote: Hi all, I've been watching and playing with ZF for some time now. Never very deeply at any given time and often putting it down for extended periods of time (version releases). One thing that keeps happening is that ZF is growing quickly. Which is good, but it's also hard to keep up. -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p787731.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
Also, I find ZF teaches you about design patterns and principles through implementation, i feel you are learning more than just Framework, maybe this is part if the issue also? On 25 Nov 2009, at 18:32, Rob Riggen r...@riggen.org wrote: I've been very frustrated with ZF - specifically in regard to the lack of helpful how to and tutorial information. There is very little out there that is even close to up-to-date. If the official documentation wants developer to connect the dots on their own, it seems to leave a little too much room between the dots for me. I've developed many applications using ZF. I started using it well before many of the new components became available. It takes so much time and experimentation to figure out how to implement the new components that it almost seems impractical if you want to actually get something done (vs study and learn). I've also created applications using CI and Symfony and found those frameworks much better to use from the standpoint of being able to actually accomplish some work. The documentation and tutorial help is much more readily available and suited to an experience developer jumping in and getting work done. ZF seem more suited to academia than someone trying to run a business developing applications, IMHO. Rob Rob Riggen (802) 662-1069 r...@riggen.org On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:20 PM, swilhelm st...@studio831.com wrote: I want to second this post. I have used ZF for some projects earlier this year and I am right on the cusp of making a major decision: explore ZF 1.9 more deeply or abandon ZF and PHP altogether for Ruby on Rails. ZF Documentation seems almost passive aggressive, providing examples to get started, but lacking enough information to build, test, and deploy production quality, maintainable websites. Maybe it's a case of the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence but Ruby and RoR seem to be better suited to quickly and easily develop production quality websites. I don't want to start a ZF vs RoR discussion, though that might be interesting. I would like to hear how others have become proficient in building production websites using ZF. - Steve W. Fozzyuw wrote: Hi all, I've been watching and playing with ZF for some time now. Never very deeply at any given time and often putting it down for extended periods of time (version releases). One thing that keeps happening is that ZF is growing quickly. Which is good, but it's also hard to keep up. -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p787731.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
I have found it is just like learning anything that is semi complex, and different than you are used to. It takes some time to build up your tool set to both adapt how you currently do things to ZF, and ZF to how you do things. Once you get a couple projects under your belt, you will have a pretty good understanding. I started with very little OOP experience, and no MVC experience. On top of that it was just as ZF was moving to the new auto loader version. One of the main issues I found that helped me was to find one resource that covers most of the development from start to finish. One of the good parts and tricky parts of ZF is that you can do the same task 10 different ways. If you try and piece one online tutorial written by one person together with a different one written by another person it is hard to since everyone does it a little different. I would suggest finding one source that will demonstrate start to finish a project. For me this wasn't the quick start, but http://akrabat.com/zend-framework-tutorial/ really got me started. On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Daniel Latter dan.lat...@gmail.com wrote: Personally speaking it's a case of practice, practice, practice. I feel documentation can only get you so far and it won't be a panecea or all your woes, like Sudheer says the best way is to get writing an app. What I found useful was use this list ( or any of ) watch the questions comin through, and compare replies with what you would have said, to the actual solution, if there is one, this is a great way to test and enhance your understanding. On 25 Nov b 2009, at 18:20, swilhelm st...@studio831.com wrote: I want to second this post. I have used ZF for some projects earlier this year and I am right on the cusp of making a major decision: explore ZF 1.9 more deeply or abandon ZF and PHP altogether for Ruby on Rails. ZF Documentation seems almost passive aggressive, providing examples to get started, but lacking enough information to build, test, and deploy production quality, maintainable websites. Maybe it's a case of the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence but Ruby and RoR seem to be better suited to quickly and easily develop production quality websites. I don't want to start a ZF vs RoR discussion, though that might be interesting. I would like to hear how others have become proficient in building production websites using ZF. - Steve W. Fozzyuw wrote: Hi all, I've been watching and playing with ZF for some time now. Never very deeply at any given time and often putting it down for extended periods of time (version releases). One thing that keeps happening is that ZF is growing quickly. Which is good, but it's also hard to keep up. -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p787731.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
No probs, thank you for the effort. On 25 Nov 2009, at 18:02, Pádraic Brady padraic.br...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks, Daniel ;) Survive The Deep End isn't complete but it covers almost anything worth mentioning when starting out. I'll be kicking out more chapters pretty soon - it's turned into a longer term project since it started. Paddy Pádraic Brady http://blog.astrumfutura.com http://www.survivethedeepend.com OpenID Europe Foundation Irish Representative From: Daniel Latter dan.lat...@gmail.com To: Fozzyuw jmbertu...@gmail.com Cc: Zend Framework General fw-general@lists.zend.com Sent: Wed, November 25, 2009 4:59:22 PM Subject: Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin? http://www.survivethedeepend.com/ Thanks. 2009/11/25 Fozzyuw jmbertu...@gmail.com Hi all, I've been watching and playing with ZF for some time now. Never very deeply at any given time and often putting it down for extended periods of time (version releases). One thing that keeps happening is that ZF is growing quickly. Which is good, but it's also hard to keep up. I'm getting to the point where I'm rather quite lost. The Programmer's Reference Guides (PRG) on the website are good, but often very limited in scope, never offering much of the complete package. So, my question is, where does one find a great ZF resource that does a good job introducing ZF and explaining how everything fits together with both independent examples (like PRG offers) and integration into a larger overall project? A book I had on ZF a year ago is beyond outdated. Not even having references to Zend_Layout and now there are some nice tools like Zend_Navigation to learn. On top of trying to understand the dispatch process and it's relation to helpers and overall MVC best practices. So, as an experienced PHP programmer but someone who's looking wanting to get the whole picture on how to best start utilizing ZF, where does one begin? Cheers! Fozzy -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p787666.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
Thanks for all the suggestions and the discussion. I've been using ZF for probably over a year now, if not longer. But it's been so on/off that I might miss a few big releases and then I find some big changes. For example, I started using and practicing with ZF before Zend_layout. I bought some early books on it. Followed along. Did tutorials. Had no problems, even as I learned about MVC, which conceptually is easy to understand. Then, I stopped for a bit, Zend_Layout came out, and everything was changed. I started over learning Zend_Layout, stopped... and Zend_Form comes out. I spent time learning that, rinse repeat. The problem is I tend to keep hitting brick walls. I'm trying to learn something like using Zend_Navigation. Being a programmer by degree, I'm fine using the API. But even the API doesn't tell me everything because I'm looking through the Zend_Navigation code and I realize it's not the Navigation class, it's a View Helper. It gets to the point that I start reading the source code. For something like the Header Title element. The API doesn't state you can APPEND, PREPEND, or SET as your three options. I had to pop open the source to figure that out. It gets royally confusing until you actually get such a big foundation of knowledge built up on ZF that it becomes more second hand. On top of that, there's best practices that come with MVC that's outside of understanding what MVC is and how it works. Should this code be put into a Model class? Or is it part of the View? Those kind of questions. Perhaps this Survive the Deepend online book is what I've been looking for. It certainly sounds exactly what I'm feeling. I really want to learn ZF inside-out and even start writing my own tutorials at some point, when I get that good, but right now I'm getting frustrated trying to find a guided course to just transition some simple sites I have now into ZF. I think ZF has tons of potential and it does have a lot of reference material, but I feel there's a lot left out. As someone else said, a bit passive aggressive. It's to the point that I feel like just going back to doing my own thing for a framework because it takes so long to put things together. Cheers for the suggestions, though! -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p787846.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] ZF - Where to begin?
Dont know what docs you were reading:? http://framework.zend.com/manual/en/zend.view.helpers.html#zend.view.helpers.initial.headtitle Also, you dont have to learn everything about a componant to use it, which it sounds like what you are trying to do. The survive the deepend book goes through creating a Blog App while touching base with many of the popular componanents as has been stated so this may be a good place to start if you want a tutorial in creating a ZF App. Thanks. 2009/11/25 Fozzyuw jmbertu...@gmail.com: Thanks for all the suggestions and the discussion. I've been using ZF for probably over a year now, if not longer. But it's been so on/off that I might miss a few big releases and then I find some big changes. For example, I started using and practicing with ZF before Zend_layout. I bought some early books on it. Followed along. Did tutorials. Had no problems, even as I learned about MVC, which conceptually is easy to understand. Then, I stopped for a bit, Zend_Layout came out, and everything was changed. I started over learning Zend_Layout, stopped... and Zend_Form comes out. I spent time learning that, rinse repeat. The problem is I tend to keep hitting brick walls. I'm trying to learn something like using Zend_Navigation. Being a programmer by degree, I'm fine using the API. But even the API doesn't tell me everything because I'm looking through the Zend_Navigation code and I realize it's not the Navigation class, it's a View Helper. It gets to the point that I start reading the source code. For something like the Header Title element. The API doesn't state you can APPEND, PREPEND, or SET as your three options. I had to pop open the source to figure that out. It gets royally confusing until you actually get such a big foundation of knowledge built up on ZF that it becomes more second hand. On top of that, there's best practices that come with MVC that's outside of understanding what MVC is and how it works. Should this code be put into a Model class? Or is it part of the View? Those kind of questions. Perhaps this Survive the Deepend online book is what I've been looking for. It certainly sounds exactly what I'm feeling. I really want to learn ZF inside-out and even start writing my own tutorials at some point, when I get that good, but right now I'm getting frustrated trying to find a guided course to just transition some simple sites I have now into ZF. I think ZF has tons of potential and it does have a lot of reference material, but I feel there's a lot left out. As someone else said, a bit passive aggressive. It's to the point that I feel like just going back to doing my own thing for a framework because it takes so long to put things together. Cheers for the suggestions, though! -- View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/ZF-Where-to-begin-tp787666p787846.html Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
