Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jan 30, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Kris Tilford  wrote:

> On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:15 PM, smac0031  wrote:
> 
>> Sorry about the error code. I ran the test a second time and got scc /3/7.
> 
> I'm not positive about this, but here's my best guess. I believe SCC is 
> "serial communications controller". There is no serial port on the DA G4, so 
> this leaves only the optional modem as a serial device. I had already 
> mentioned that any network type errors can stall shutdown. If you have the 
> optional modem on your DA, removed it. This may fix your issue?

>From what I've been able to glean SCC error codes mean 'Bad logic board'.  
>However I also found references to that error occurring as a false positive 
>because of 3rd party CPU upgrades being installed.

If Kris' advice doesn't fix it, I'd lean towards new mobo/new computer as the 
fix, or live with it as is.

I'm guessing that by the time  everything but the desktop background 
disappears, everything's been written to disk, so I think the damage from 
forcing a power off will be pretty minimal.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, as I recall, is trying AppleJack to deep 
clean the caches and such. That's worth a try, cannot hurt. It'll also be a 
good test of a serious hardare error. If 'shutdown -h now' doesn't work in 
single-user mode it's definitely hardware.

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Kris Tilford]

On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:15 PM, smac0031  wrote:

> Sorry about the error code. I ran the test a second time and got scc /3/7.

Oops! I just saw this, which I believe is true. "Apple hardware test will not 
run properly when their is a third party upgrade card in place, like that of 
your 1.2Ghz Sonnet G4, thus you see the 3/7 error."

I suspect if you remove the CPU card, the hardware test will run clean... This 
may simply be a CPU card issue?

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Kris Tilford]

On Jan 30, 2014, at 3:15 PM, smac0031  wrote:

> Sorry about the error code. I ran the test a second time and got scc /3/7.

I'm not positive about this, but here's my best guess. I believe SCC is "serial 
communications controller". There is no serial port on the DA G4, so this 
leaves only the optional modem as a serial device. I had already mentioned that 
any network type errors can stall shutdown. If you have the optional modem on 
your DA, removed it. This may fix your issue?

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[smac0031]

Sorry about the error code. I ran the test a second time and got scc /3/7. 
This was the long test. It passes the short test Also when I hit shutdown 
on the hardware test it immediately shuts down.
I've booted the thing zapping the Pram. That works. The only non apple 
things in it now 1.6 gig processor and ata133 card.
I'll phutz around with it some more and let you know what happens. 
Thanks for the help. This is a lot more involved than I thought it was 
going to be.

Mark Murphy

On Monday, January 13, 2014 11:18:24 PM UTC-5, smac0031 wrote:
>
> My DA G4 doesn't shut down when you select shut down from the menu. It 
> just malingers.
>
> Mark Murphy
>

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[gifutiger]

Greetings,

My guess is that you don't want to fix your problem.
I say this because there is only one way to fix your problem and I list 
them below.

1. Remove all of the cards in your machine except the video card, restart 
holding down the "Cmd, Opt, P & R" keys until you hear the start-up chime 
at least twice.
   * If you don't hear the start-up chime then you have a processor problem 
- replace the processor with a known good processor.
2. If after step #1 you can shutdown, startup, open applications etc. then 
you are on your way to locating what is causing your problem and this step 
is for you to replace ½ of the cards that you removed in step #1.
3. Start up the machine again and if; you are back to where you were then 
remove ½ of the cards that you installed in step #2 and restart.
*This step is predicated on the number of cards that you installed in 
step #2, if you only installed 2 cards then remove 1 card and repeat step 
#2.
4. If the machine boots and performs Okay then chances that the other card 
is your problem, however this may not be absolutely true, so to make sure 
remove the card that worked in step #3 and replace it with the card that 
was removed and restart.
* If the second card works Okay then you might have a problem with one 
card interfering with the proper operation the other card or perhaps the 
card location.
5. If both card work Okay by themselves then you might want to try then in 
different slots, both at the same time,
6. Back to step #2 if the cards that were replaced in this step worked then 
you should replace ½ of the remaining cards that were removed initially and 
restart.
   * Repeating the process until the defective card or cards are discovered.

Good Luck

Harry Freeman
San Jose, Ca

On Monday, January 13, 2014 8:18:24 PM UTC-8, smac0031 wrote:
>
> My DA G4 doesn't shut down when you select shut down from the menu. It 
> just malingers.
>
> Mark Murphy
>

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jan 30, 2014, at 8:02 AM, smac0031  wrote:

> The Apple Hardware test gave me error code sc / 377 or something like that.

"something like that" is not really helpful. The exact error code and wording 
is important. 





-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[smac0031]

The Apple Hardware test gave me error code sc / 377 or something like that.

This thing will not shut down without sitting on the power button. It hangs 
if you use shutdown from the apple menu quitting everything leaving the 
desktop picture.
sudo shutdown -h won't even do that.

On Monday, January 13, 2014 11:18:24 PM UTC-5, smac0031 wrote:
>
> My DA G4 doesn't shut down when you select shut down from the menu. It 
> just malingers.
>
> Mark Murphy
>

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Kris Tilford]

On Jan 29, 2014, at 6:17 PM, Bruce Johnson  wrote:

>  If it persists when you do a safe boot, it's most likely something hardware 
> related, because only Apple kexts are running then.

Agreed, hardware is seeming likely. I still don't understand why he's not 
seeing the verbose shutdown dialog unless it stalls prior to reaching this 
point, which might be pointing toward a bad video card. I'd try removing and 
reseating the video card just-in-case...

If he doesn't have the Apple Hardware Test CD, you can download an image here, 
and burn it, run the test, and see if there's a hardware issue:



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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Jack Countryman]

If it were me, I'd take a different hard drive, wipe it, and install a system 
from the original system disks.  Then reboot from the new setup.  If it still 
has issues, it has to be hardware.
If it works OK from that bare bones system, then update/add software till the 
problem shows up again.  If you go one step at a time, you will know what was 
done last, therefore what caused the problem to start.  Yeah, it takes time to 
step through to do this.  

If you knew what was done to the system just before this started, that might 
give you a better starting point.  Then it would be worth undoing the last 
change to see if that fixes things.
~~~
On Jan 29, 2014, at 6:19 PM, Valter Prahlad  
wrote:

> Il giorno 29/01/14 21.37, "smac0031" ha scritto:
> 
>> I tried safe boot and reinstalling 10.4.11 ppc combo update. It didn't make
>> any difference. 
> This makes me think it's more likely is a hardware issue, not software.
> Reinstalling the update should have fixed most software issues, at least
> regarding OSX itself.
> 
> But the issue could be from a different (non Apple) software as well, maybe
> some driver or kext ("extension") from weird apps.
> In System Preferences, in the lower row (Tools or Accessories), what do you
> have?
> 
>> I also noticed it won't restart either. It hangs at the
>> desktop picture and won't go any farther.
> This makes sense: to restart, it needs to shutdown the system first.
> 
> 
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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jan 29, 2014, at 4:19 PM, Valter Prahlad  
wrote:

>> 
>> I also noticed it won't restart either. It hangs at the
>> desktop picture and won't go any farther.
> This makes sense: to restart, it needs to shutdown the system first.

Yes, this is a shutdown issue. If it persists when you do a safe boot, it's 
most likely something hardware related, because only Apple kexts are running 
then.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Valter Prahlad]

Il giorno 29/01/14 21.37, "smac0031" ha scritto:

> I tried safe boot and reinstalling 10.4.11 ppc combo update. It didn't make
> any difference. 
This makes me think it's more likely is a hardware issue, not software.
Reinstalling the update should have fixed most software issues, at least
regarding OSX itself.

But the issue could be from a different (non Apple) software as well, maybe
some driver or kext ("extension") from weird apps.
In System Preferences, in the lower row (Tools or Accessories), what do you
have?

> I also noticed it won't restart either. It hangs at the
> desktop picture and won't go any farther.
This makes sense: to restart, it needs to shutdown the system first.


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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Kris Tilford]

On Jan 29, 2014, at 2:37 PM, smac0031  wrote:

> I started with the command-v and a lot of text went by which I don't 
> understand. Is this saved anywhere?

Yes, it's saved temporarily and can be accessed via Terminal directly after 
startup, but we're not too concerned about the startup dialog right now, we're 
interested in the SHUTDOWN dialog. Since it won't complete a normal Shutdown, 
the dialog "should" remain on the screen frozen, for you to look at. The last 
few lines, especially the final line, is what we're likely interested in.

To show the verbose startup dialog which is the kernel message buffer, you need 
to open Terminal immediately after boot and type the command 'dmesg' which is 
short for "display message" (no quotes). Later versions of OS X may require 
'sudo dmesg' followed by admin password entry, but this shouldn't be required 
for yours.

Again, we're interested in the messages at shutdown, which should be stalled 
upon the black screen to easily read.

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[smac0031]

I tried safe boot and reinstalling 10.4.11 ppc combo update. It didn't make 
any difference. I also noticed it won't restart either. It hangs at the 
desktop picture and won't go any farther.

I started with the command-v and a lot of text went by which I don't 
understand. Is this saved anywhere?

Mark Murphy

On Monday, January 13, 2014 11:18:24 PM UTC-5, smac0031 wrote:
>
> My DA G4 doesn't shut down when you select shut down from the menu. It 
> just malingers.
>
> Mark Murphy
>

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Kris Tilford]

This thread seems to be going nowhere. I perused the archive, I see no evidence 
of progress.

My advice:

1) Safe boot with Shift key at startup. Then reinstall the 10.4.11 PPC Combo 
Update.

2) Upon reboot hold (Cmd-v) keys for verbose dialog at startup. Hit Shutdown, 
and see what happens. It may be fixed, and shutdown normally. If not, you can 
see where the stall is.

3) If it's a USB card problem, look in System Profiler for the exact model of 
your card, you'll be looking for the VID (Vendor ID #) and DID (Device ID #), 
as well as the "Firmware revision". I've not encountered too many USB PCI cards 
needing firmware update, but I have encounter many external USB enclosures, 
including ones with NEC chipsets, that either didn't work on Mac, or worked 
very poorly, which were greatly improved by updating the firmware. Often 
finding such firmware is nearly impossible, most hardware this old has zero 
support, and websites shutdown, the Internet Archive>Wayback Machine is often 
the only hope. If you have the VID & DID and chipset, or model #, you might 
find others with PPC Macs with similar issues?

Often stalled shutdowns are network issues, perhaps you connected to another 
Mac or server in the past, and now it's waiting for some acknowledgement of a 
disconnect that's never coming. Hopefully a simple Safe Boot or reinstall of 
the Combo Update would solve this, but seeing the verbose dialog would surely 
be best.

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[smac0031]

Would it be possible to write an applescript to do this shutdown. I am a 
little leery here, I haven't written a program in 25 years.

On Monday, January 13, 2014 11:18:24 PM UTC-5, smac0031 wrote:
>
> My DA G4 doesn't shut down when you select shut down from the menu. It 
> just malingers.
>
> Mark Murphy
>

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Manoah F. Adams]

On Jan 25, 2014, at 17:32 , smac0031 wrote:

What does this sudo shutdown -h now command do. The terminal tells  
the Mac to shutdown?



In short, yes.   Using the terminal gives you more flexibility in  
issuing commands (only the daily, typical things are given a menu or  
button some place.).
The "shutdown - h now" part is roughly the same as choosing "Shut  
Down" from the Apple menu...
but the "sudo" part is the crucial difference ... it does the shut  
down under the auspices of the super user (a.k.a. Root user, or in  
this case "Admin" user),

(which is why it asks for your password again).
The shut down process of the machine involves an ordered closing up /  
quitting, in roughly reverse order to the start up process.
By running shutdown as root user, no program (including the many  
invisible ones) can refuse to quit and thus hold up the shutting down.


Of course this isn't a solution to your problem, but it will help  
prevent further damage --
doing a 'cold' shutdown (by pulling the plug or holding down the  
power button until it goes dark) is really hard on the system...

lost settings, and corrupted filesystems  often result.
In fact, it should be standard procedure after every cold shutdown to  
open the Disk Utility and do a "Repair" or at least a "Verify" on all  
disks that were connected at the time you turned off the machine.



By the way, the advice others have given on removing third-party (non  
Apple) cards, and on starting in "Single User" mode are right on  
point and should be followed.



Manoah F. Adams


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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[smac0031]

I pulled the USB 2.0 card. No difference. It quits the finder leaving the 
desktop picture up. 
It is an NEC card 1030 is on it (Without my glasses) It has six ports, 5 
external 1 internal.

What does this sudo shutdown -h now command do. The terminal tells the Mac 
to shutdown?
Mark Murphy

On Monday, January 13, 2014 11:18:24 PM UTC-5, smac0031 wrote:
>
> My DA G4 doesn't shut down when you select shut down from the menu. It 
> just malingers.
>
> Mark Murphy
>

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Manoah F . Adams]

On Jan 24, 2014, at 16:42 , smac0031 wrote:

I have made some progress on the DA G4. I replaced the battery and  
zapped the pram which made no difference.
I disconnected all usb devices except the keyboard and a Logitech  
trackball and tried shutting down which also made no difference.


Parenthetical:
Until your shutdown problem is solved, you'll want to use the  
following method each time, since a 'cold' shutdown (power-button or  
plug-pulling) will eventually cause more trouble...

then open the Terminal app and type: sudo shutdown -h now
(then type return, then your password when asked)
That should always work, unless something is really wrong.

I tried creating a new user, but that doesn't come up when it boots  
up.
I presume therefore that you have the 'automatic login' option on,  
and you need to turn that off for now.
Boot, go to the Accounts preference pane in the system preferences,  
click on the "Login Options" button at the bottom of the list of  
users, then turn that setting off.

Shutdown, then boot.
You should be presented with list of users, or name and password  
boxes. Don't bother with that, just click on the shutdown button in  
the lower left-hand corner.

If that shuts down, then report back here.

If you still can't shut down...,
Try disconnecting everything, including the USB Card, USB Hub, scanner 
(s), network drives, -  except the boot drive, the monitor, and the  
mouse

then boot - then shut down (from the Apple menu).
If that works then the problem is with one of the peripherals.
( and yes I did purposefully omit the keyboard -- sometimes even a  
keyboard can cause trouble ).
If that does not work, repeat, but without the mouse/trackball and  
with the keyboard connected instead.



If that still doesn't work, then:
repeat minimal setup above - booting,
then shutdown (Terminal method noted above).
	restart, go to the Console app, select the "system.log", scroll back  
to the Copyright notice (which will look something like: "Copyright  
(c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993"),
 then select and copy the 30 or so lines previous to (above) that  
and paste them into a reply here on the list.

That way we can maybe get a better clue.


Manoah F. Adams
mhfad...@gmail.com

This message is signed with a certificate and-or PGP key.
Disregard any unverified messages from this address.
===




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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jan 24, 2014, at 5:42 PM, smac0031 
mailto:m.smurph...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I have a 5 port Usb 2.0 card in it.

Ding Ding Ding! These are infamous for causing sleep and shutdown issues. Pull 
it out and see what happens.



--
Bruce Johnson

"Wherever you go, there you are" B. Banzai,  PhD

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Valter Prahlad]

Il giorno 25/01/14 01.42, "smac0031" ha scritto:

> I disconnected all usb devices except the keyboard and a Logitech trackball
> and tried shutting down which also made no difference.
Try with just a standard keyboard and mouse (better if Apple). The trackball
is unusual and could be troublesome (unlikely but not impossible).

> I have a 5 port Usb 2.0 card in it.
For the love of God ;-) try removing it!
That could just be your culprit.

Additional cards are known to cause problems to sleep feature, and maybe
it's interfering with your shutdown as well.
And it may happen even without any device connected to it (the card would
still be interacting with the system).

> Rarely, something happens with
> the USB something and the computer will quit all by itself.
This very likely points to the USB subsystem - starting with the USB card.

Is it a Mac-compatible card, or just a regular PC (Windows) card?
If the latter, it's likely its behavior is flaky: I had more than one
working just temporarily, or partially.


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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[smac0031]

I have made some progress on the DA G4. I replaced the battery and zapped 
the pram which made no difference.
I disconnected all usb devices except the keyboard and a Logitech trackball 
and tried shutting down which also made no difference.

The DA G4 quits the finder and the desktop picture remains and it just 
hangs, which is what has been doing whenever I try to quit.

I have a DA G4 running 10.4.11. It has a 1.6 MHz PPC processor. I also have 
a GoFlex Nas drive which might be causing the problem.

I tried creating a new user, but that doesn't come up when it boots up. It 
does on my G5, but I am the only person that uses this thing
and i don't have much experience logging on with other users. I downloaded 
AppleJack but I haven't installed it. Terminal stuff makes
me nervous.

I have a 5 port Usb 2.0 card in it. I have a powered 2.0 hub and a 2.0 
scanner and Brother HL-1440 printer and another 500mg GoFlex portable drive 
which
is different from the Nas drive. I tried powering the portable GoFlex drive 
through the hub and it wouldn't go so I plugged it back 
into the USB card. Normally, I leave the GoFlex cradle plugged into the USB 
card but I leave the drive out because I only use it for
backup.

Nevertheless, with no USB stuff connected except the keyboard and the 
trackball into the stock G4 USB port it wouldn't shut down.
So, progress amounts to eliminating a bunch of stuff and the computer still 
won't shut down. Rarely, something happens with
the USB something and the computer will quit all by itself. This usually, 
involves waking and it quits. When this happens the clock and
date get screwed up, but because it's set to look up the date and time it 
fixes itself within a minute or two, but it does mean it
needed a new battery. Now its got one.

If anyone has ideas it would be helpful.

Mark Murphy
On Monday, January 13, 2014 11:18:24 PM UTC-5, smac0031 wrote:
>
> My DA G4 doesn't shut down when you select shut down from the menu. It 
> just malingers.
>
> Mark Murphy
>

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Dan]

At 8:18 PM -0800 01/13/2014, smac0031 wrote:
My DA G4 doesn't shut down when you select shut down from the menu. 
It just malingers.


And you jinxed my QuickSilver!  It too started hanging on shutdown.

A quick look at the system log, and confirmed by Activity Monitor, 
showed that Splotchlight had a repeating death grip on one of my 
external USB drives...


- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jan 14, 2014, at 11:19 PM, Alex Sciortino  wrote:

> Not necessarily. Sometimes an Archive and Install can solve many issues.
> Just because it is a Mac does not mean system files cannot get corrupted.
> ‹ Alex Sciortino
> http://windows8sales.com/


Sometimes it can, but if the issue is something in the user’s settings an A&R 
will simply not work.

First thing to do, which I forgot, is to  log in as a different user (create a 
new user in the System Preferences/ user Accounts pane, reboot and log in as 
that user. 

If the problem persists, it’s something to do with system-side settings or 
hardware.

If the problem goes away, it’s something to do with something in the affected 
user’s settings or other things running.

This should be the very first go-to diagnostic, because the decision paths 
after this initial fork are very different.

MOST of the time I’ve seen this particular problem (including when I've 
experienced it myself) the problem lies with some connected device 
malfunctioning. You’ll see a long string of USB or Firewire errors in the 
system log in this case.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Alex Sciortino]

I realize that. That was just in response to Bruce saying that it rarely
fixes things. My bets are on the PMU. Reset that and I think it will likely
fix it. It is the small tact switch on the logic board.
‹ Alex Sciortino
http://windows8sales.com/


From:  Kris Tilford 
Reply-To:  
Date:  Tuesday, January 14, 2014 at 11:25 PM
To:  
Subject:  Re: DA G4 will not shut down

On Jan 15, 2014, at 12:19 AM, Alex Sciortino  wrote:

> Not necessarily. Sometimes an Archive and Install can solve many issues.
> Just because it is a Mac does not mean system files cannot get corrupted.

Whoa. There¹s a LOT to be done BEFORE an ³Archive and Install² is necessary.

1) Zap PRAM & reset NVRAM.
2) Safe Boot to rebuild System caches
3) Reinstall the Combo Update.

Only after these 3 all fail, would you consider an Archive & Install


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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Kris Tilford]

On Jan 15, 2014, at 12:19 AM, Alex Sciortino  wrote:

> Not necessarily. Sometimes an Archive and Install can solve many issues.
> Just because it is a Mac does not mean system files cannot get corrupted.

Whoa. There’s a LOT to be done BEFORE an “Archive and Install” is necessary.

1) Zap PRAM & reset NVRAM.
2) Safe Boot to rebuild System caches
3) Reinstall the Combo Update.

Only after these 3 all fail, would you consider an Archive & Install

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Alex Sciortino]

Not necessarily. Sometimes an Archive and Install can solve many issues.
Just because it is a Mac does not mean system files cannot get corrupted.
‹ Alex Sciortino
http://windows8sales.com/






On 1/14/14, 7:03 AM, "Bruce Johnson"  wrote:
>
>Re-installing the OS is a windows fix for a Mac problem, and is highly
>unlikely to work.


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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[smac0031]

The finder quits but it is still running. It runs 10.4.11.


On Monday, January 13, 2014 11:18:24 PM UTC-5, smac0031 wrote:
>
> My DA G4 doesn't shut down when you select shut down from the menu. It 
> just malingers.
>
> Mark Murphy
>

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jan 13, 2014, at 9:18 PM, smac0031  wrote:

> My DA G4 doesn't shut down when you select shut down from the menu. It just 
> malingers.

"Malingers"  is a rather inexact term.  What OS Version?

Is it stopping with the finder still active? With the desktop background still 
visible? With a gray screen?

Fire up the Console (in Applications/Utilities) to see what's happening at the 
time of shutdown.

Does it happen if you disconnect all usb devices except the keyboard/mouse?

Enable verbose boot mode shown here: 
 because 
that also puts shutdown in verbose mode as well, and is the only way to do it.

Re-installing the OS is a windows fix for a Mac problem, and is highly unlikely 
to work.

What might work is booting in safe mode (hold down the shift key while booting) 
and when it comes back up to the login screen, restart normally. This clears a 
bunch of caches that could be causing this.

Try Applejack for a deeper cleaning 


-- 
Bruce Johnson

"Wherever you go, there you are." B. Banzai, PhD

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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[W.Adrian D'Alessio]

I had to replace the power button when this happened on one of my PPC Macs



On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Alex Sciortino  wrote:

> Have you tried resetting the PMU? Or reinstalling OS X?
>
> My DA G4 doesn't shut down when you select shut down from the menu. It
> just malingers.
>
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Re: DA G4 will not shut down

[Alex Sciortino]

Have you tried resetting the PMU? Or reinstalling OS X?

My DA G4 doesn't shut down when you select shut down from the menu. It just
malingers.



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