Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Josh, TDV stands for 3D Velocity by BPC Programs. Cheers! On 6/14/15, Josh K wrote: > what is tdv? i don't think i've heard of it. > > follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi John, True. However, I have known my fair share of game developers, myself included, who have asked for volunteers and there is an initial wave of people beating down the door wanting to help. Then, after a couple of weeks or so they all drift away and lose interest in the project and no longer want to help out. So that could be one reason developers don't seem to be asking for help. It is no fun to ask for help only to have all the potential volunteers walk away two or three weeks into the project. Cheers! On 6/14/15, john wrote: > My personal opinion goes to the tune of "you can't receive that which you > don't ask for". Every time I've seen help asked for here on list (I don't > follow audiogames.net as closely, so this statement only applies to > audyssey), its been replied to pretty promptly and from a pretty good number > > of sources. I suspect that the reason it appears that people aren't willing > > to help is simply because help isn't being asked for - for whatever reason - > > and that's causing things to look different than they might otherwise > appear. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Mohsin , I can definitely understand where you are coming from because I was where you are now a few years ago. I was a sighted gamer up until my mid teens when I went blind, and when I went to college I had some idea I'd get a degree in computer science and be a computer programmer. My initial idea or dream was to write accessible computer games equivalent to those I had ben exposed to before I lost my sight. Stuff like Quake, Doom, Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight, Soldier of Fortune, etc. I was convinced all I needed to do was learn to program and from their it would be easy. As it turned out it wasn't as simple or as straight forward as I thought. Interesting enough I personally did not find learning programming to be that hard. I know we are all different, some learn things easier than others, but by far learning to develop games was actually easier than other aspects of the process. There are a lot of problems I had not even imagined or considered when I decided to specialize in game programming. Things that were in my opinion much more difficult than the programming required to write a game or accessible product. One issue I see as a problem for audio game developers is advertising. Sure there are a few hundred blind customers on Audyssey and the Audio Games Forum, but the reality is they are just a small minority of the thousands perhaps millions of blind people world wide who are not connected with any audio gaming venue. Let's face it advertising via TV and radio can get extremely expensive. So expensive that it would take incredible financing to market a product that way. News Papers are a cheaper method of advertising games and other products, but there we have the problem of its not an accessible means of communication from an audio game developer to his/her potential blind customers. We can assume the majority of blind people do not read the morning paper and if they do an aid or family member reads it to them meaning that the best we can hope for that a friend or family member brings it to the blind persons attention. Regardless of the method and means a developer looks at it is going to cost a lot of money to get the word out about their product, and there does not seem to be a good method to market a product to the blind community at large at this time. Another difficulty is just demographics and age. It is a well known fact that the majority of people with vision problems today are senior citizens who are 60 or older. In other words people who are grandparents who likely have different interests than their grandkids in their teens or early 20's. As a result a young developer might spend years writing a blockbuster equivalent to the latest and greatest mainstream game aimed at his or generation only to discover it has absolutely no market value beyond his generation. The older generation of senior citizens, who make up the majority of the blind and low vision market, aren't interested in that type of game. So while it sounds exciting and fun to create accessible versions of our favorite mainstream game or games it turns out it might not be marketable outside of a handful of enthusiasts our own age. There is a way to offset both of those problems and that is to create games that can directly be sold in the mainstream market as indie games. The problem there is the game developer will have to compete with other indie games of similar quality by hiring a graphics designer, learn how to do proper graphics animation, and will involve more time and overhead in adding lots of visual effects that won't aid the audio games community. Thus potentially distracting the developer from other concerns. Bottom line, I see where you are coming from. A lot of younger blind people have this dream of having accessible audio games equivalent to the mainstream games they know and love, but as you can hopefully see it is not that simple. There are an entire host of issues unresolved in terms of marketing, of developing games for the right age group, and so forth that need to be discussed. Programming the game we want is only half the story because after some developer does it he or she still needs to find a way to market it to the community at large and find like minded gamers in the right age group. Cheers! On 6/14/15, Mohsin Ali wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > I see your point now, yes, you are right on both accounts, and I agree > that those are all valid reasons. but, you cant fault a man for hoping > of better future. we all must put some effort to accomplish this task. > although, I am studying history, but I did my intermediate in computer > science, and am trying to make the heads and tails of the game > programming. the first step is always the most difficult and I hope > that one day the audio games would be able to compete in normal > market. > > cheers. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or u
[Audyssey] android: Game - world in shadow
Sort of 3D audio only game: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.icecool.worldinshadow Just tested that it seems to cooperate/work along with talkback a little bit, thus far, but anyway. Description: First AudioGame 3D in Google Play! World In Shadow is based solely on 3D game sounds. It is a story where you have to kill wild animals and keep aggressive sound objectives. History: Gone is all the light of the world and it has become dark. Scientists do not know the cause but rather know what happened. Your mission is to find out what had happened. You will have to survive in a world completely dark where animals are aggressive and closer to targets , using only your ears . Game Mode: You have to have headphones and make sure you are well placed ( left atrial to left ear and the right on the right ear ) . Orienta mobile in the direction you want to "see." You have to hold the phone like when you take a picture. You walk by holding two fingers on the screen. To attack your enemies you tap on the screen. The game is in Beta version, if you find an error please explain it in the comments. Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA "Roger Wilco wants to welcome you...to the space janitor's closet..." --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi, Well, I would not go as far to say there would be no market incentive, but would say that the market would initially be pretty small. Small enough that there would not be an immediate return on their investment. Exactly how big or small the market would be for someone like EA Games would remain to be seen since there is a lot more blind and low vision people out there than this list or the audio games forum. The problem is it is hard to accurately count them since they are not connected with our group and while we know they exist we don't know anything about their desire to play games or how much they'd spend on a mainstream setup to play accessible mainstream games. At this point all we can do is guess. Cheers! On 6/14/15, Josh K wrote: > and even if someone like EA games would start making audio games there > probably would be no market insentive and they would quickly drop the > project. > > follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Thomas, I see your point now, yes, you are right on both accounts, and I agree that those are all valid reasons. but, you cant fault a man for hoping of better future. we all must put some effort to accomplish this task. although, I am studying history, but I did my intermediate in computer science, and am trying to make the heads and tails of the game programming. the first step is always the most difficult and I hope that one day the audio games would be able to compete in normal market. cheers. On 6/15/15, john wrote: > My personal opinion goes to the tune of "you can't receive that which you > don't ask for". Every time I've seen help asked for here on list (I don't > follow audiogames.net as closely, so this statement only applies to > audyssey), its been replied to pretty promptly and from a pretty good number > > of sources. I suspect that the reason it appears that people aren't willing > > to help is simply because help isn't being asked for - for whatever reason - > > and that's causing things to look different than they might otherwise > appear. > > -- > From: "Thomas Ward" > Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 2:24 > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine > > Hi Dark, > > You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the > > community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with > sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't > > asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. > > One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also > can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't > necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be > > written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a > > developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific > sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights > > as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a > bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community > designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. > > That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't > necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find > out those reasons and address them. > > Cheers! > > > On 6/13/15, dark wrote: >> Hi Tom. >> >> While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I >> will say is that games are not just made by developers. >> There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi >> graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, >> music >> >> composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so >> many >> people in the audiogames community play around with sounds for fun, yet >> none >> >> of them put those tallents into sound design, or the way you have >> talented >> writers and actors and yet such people do not seem to be getting in touch >> with developers to assist for one reason or another. >> >> Indeed, swamp is a good example sinse I do know that while all the coding >> and large parts of the basic design are Aprones, he has had assistance >> from >> >> several people as far as creating sounds go. >> >> So, while I'm sure your right on collaboration with different developers, >> >> I >> >> do think there would be milage in developers handing at least some >> aspects >> of the production process over to other people. >> >> All the best, >> >> Dark. >> There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is >> vast >> >> and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than >> even >> the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
My personal opinion goes to the tune of "you can't receive that which you don't ask for". Every time I've seen help asked for here on list (I don't follow audiogames.net as closely, so this statement only applies to audyssey), its been replied to pretty promptly and from a pretty good number of sources. I suspect that the reason it appears that people aren't willing to help is simply because help isn't being asked for - for whatever reason - and that's causing things to look different than they might otherwise appear. -- From: "Thomas Ward" Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 2:24 To: "Gamers Discussion list" Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Dark, You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find out those reasons and address them. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I > will say is that games are not just made by developers. > There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi > graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, > music > > composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so many > people in the audiogames community play around with sounds for fun, yet > none > > of them put those tallents into sound design, or the way you have talented > writers and actors and yet such people do not seem to be getting in touch > with developers to assist for one reason or another. > > Indeed, swamp is a good example sinse I do know that while all the coding > and large parts of the basic design are Aprones, he has had assistance > from > > several people as far as creating sounds go. > > So, while I'm sure your right on collaboration with different developers, > I > > do think there would be milage in developers handing at least some aspects > of the production process over to other people. > > All the best, > > Dark. > There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is > vast > > and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even > the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
and keep in mind guys these days folks are getting away from the big multi million dollar companies! My son really likes minecraft. that's an indi game. dota2 on steam, I'm pretty sure its an indi game also. games can be made by indipendent devs and still be excellent. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/13/2015 11:03 AM, dark wrote: Hi John. While those are good suggestions, at the same time I will correct the point that "mainstream" in the sense most people mean is a much different beast. A mainstream title would have a budget in the hundreds of thousands and have perhaps a staff of a couple of hundred working flat out for weeks on end, designers, graphic artists, coders by the score, managers etc, indeed the voice actors and such are usually the last to be employed. This is why the gap is unrealistic. Yes, some of the mainstream games pproduced now have some very unique mechanics (although there are those who argued that like big hollywood films they're now all special effects). This isn't to say some sort of unified project wouldn't be a bad idea assuming that A, you could get several individual coders to agree on a set of programming language tools and conventions, only that even if you raised ten thousand dollars for the project that would still be a drop in the ocean. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
what is tdv? i don't think i've heard of it. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/13/2015 9:40 AM, john wrote: I'll do my best to answer each of your points below: Game comparison: I have no clue. I haven't played mainstream games, and really pay them little attention, so have no idea how to compare. However, what I've seen leads me to say something like TDV is relatively close to mainstream - its got story, its got multiplayer, and its got other stuff to do. I'd also put Swamp in that box, especially once you start involving player-written campaigns in the equation. If there were more of those out there, it'd probably be pretty close to mainstream titles. For the rest of your points, I think its important to point out that what's being discussed here is a number of developers, not just two or three, banding together with the intent of getting a product out the door. We're not talking one loan dev doing everything - we're talking several, with community support for every aspect of the job. Finances: If we made a game a truly community project and then went ahead and published a list of things we needed to make it work and their prices for the community to contribute on, as well as pitching in ourselves, I think we could probably raise more money than you think. $100 is a lot of money, but there are probably a couple people out there who'd be willing to send in that much, as well as several others who'd be fine sending in $20 for the project. I'd also like to note that if you make it your intent to make a project low budget, you can still come up with something high quality without spending $5000 on sounds and acting. I'm two years into my own project, and while I certainly wouldn't call it mainstream quality, my total budget (including bgt because I'm being generous) has been... $40, total. $10 for a sound library, and $30 for the bgt license. Of course I haven't gotten everything done (not even close), but every step of the way I'm trying to find ways to use existing or free resources, rather than spending hundreds of dollars on commercial libraries. Time: two points here. 1: even large companies take years to make those games, also. Its not as if they can crank them out in six months, at least not from what I've heard. 2: Yeah, you're right. Its going to take a long time for us to make a really big and high quality game. We'll tell the community that before we go ahead and take their money - something like "please understand that this project is expected to take at least five years before anything is even remotely available for beta." Compensation: this is a community-supported project, built and worked on by the community, every sep of the way. People have already contributed to build the game, it'd be completely unethical to then turn around and tell them you wanted more money for a project that they've been a part of almost as much as you. That said, developers would be spending a lot of time on this - a donation button is perfectly appropriate. You've also mentioned the subject of a common programming interface in the past - I think that would have to be something determined only once the team of developers was assembled. Compromises would have to be made, of course - its pointless to say "I want to write this game in language x" if only two developers in the community know that language at all. There's just no way to figure out what would work before those who were going to do the writing were all there and able to say how comfortable they were with a given interface. -- From: "Thomas Ward" Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 2:03 To: "Gamers Discussion list" Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Mohsin , Honestly most of our games seem more on par with mainstream games from 20 years ago rather than 10 to 15 years ago. I'd say comparing our games to Sega, Nintendo, or any other games from 10 to 15 years ago is pretty conservative as I happen to own a number of console games from 2000 to 2005 and a lot of them are far superior to any audio game I know of in terms of audio, graphics, game play, etc. So the question at hand is what to do about it. It is all well and good to plead for better and more advanced audio games. It is even alright to encourage our developers to build better and more complex games. However, until certain issues have practical solutions the audio games industry isn't going anywhere. First, is finances. Our audio game developers are not multi-million dollar companies with lots of money to pay out on royalties for sounds, music, and top notch acting. So one way you can accomplish your goal of better audio games is by helping us find ways to finance our game development. People have tried kickstarter and crowd funding with mixed success. Others have tried taking preorders and not managed to raise the funds they really needed. There are ways of razing money but so far none of the usual ways were too successful
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
oh yeah and found a lot of good youtube videos that are good and descriptive for beginning to play chess. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/13/2015 9:32 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Dark, That makes two of us. As a software and game developer I often feel like those asking for games equivalent to mainstream games assume that audio game developers aren't developing games equal to their favorite mainstream games out of laziness or perhaps a lack of desire. It feels like they sometimes assume someone can just snap their fingers and voila their is an accessible version of Assassin Creed, Call of ?Duty, or whatever. Things just aren't that simple and straight forward, and take more time, money, and energy to produce than the uninitiated assume. As you so correctly pointed out it is unfair to compare most single audio game developers to multi-million dollar game companies who are developing massively complex games for the mainstream gaming community because we just don't have the time, resources, or ability to compete with that kind of game. It is much more fair and realistic to hold us to the indie standards of smaller indie developers who are developing good games, but on a much smaller budget and less resources. In a case like that I think a lot of audio game developers could improve and develop games on par with the indie games for PC. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark wrote: Hi. To be honest I'm getting a little sick of this "I want a mainstream game" debate. ? People seem to think all mainstream games are complex affairs just because they are graphical and the audio game developers are just being lazyor something or not taking the time. ? The plane fact is even in terms of graphical games, what people are developing with similar resources to audiogames are not huge complex multiplayer 3D monstrosities. Most indi games are by their nature simpler because your comparing the resources of one or two people on their own working probably in their spare time, with a huge multi million dollar company that employs hundreds of developers working 8 hours a day with a gigantic budget of resources. ? IInstead of people saying "where is the audio version of insert mainstream title" I'd suggest people look around at some of the indi produced pc, Ios or android games, the games that do have similar amounts of funding and resources and look at the differences there, why the differences exist and how to reduce them. ? One for example which people mention but which still hasn't had much by way of attention is sound design. A graphics artist can put whatever they want in their game. they want a huge mechanized plant monster from the planet zog, well they can have it, how well it is produced might depend upon how good their graphics artist and animmating program is, but fundamentally they can still have it. The same is not true of audiogames, I still! see people wanting to buy ridiculously expensive soundpacks rather than looking into alternative methods of sound design, indeed we have some talented sound designers in this community. I'd also suggest looking around for sounbds more. ? it amazed me when in 2010, the independently produced game To hell with Johnny (a game with low vision access but no complete audio access), actually had a more rich soundscape than most audiogames. When i asked the developer where he came by sounds, he just said he found them around. Same goes for music, the music in some indi titles has been staggeringly good, mostly becuase people have sought out ameter musicians who are able to do a good job and communicated with them, but for some reason a lot of makers of audiogames just look within the community, and as has been said before there are comparatively few blind people. ? Lastly, one thing which always confuses me is why people don't make more use the tools that are! available, and I'm not just talking about Bgt. ? Swamp Campaign scripting has the potential to create some great stuff, because you can pretty much do whatever you want in first person, create door and lock puzzles, alter health, attacks etc. A while ago someone was bemoaning the fact that there was no audio resident evil, and yet it'd be comparatively easy to create an audio resident evel as a Swamp campaing sinse you've already got all the movement and firing controls, just slow things down (including the zombies), and insert a lot of locked door puzzles and objects to pick up and examine, and vuala! ? The same goes for tactical battle maps and time of conflict maps. Jason Alan is currently working on a modding system for Entombed ii, something which I'm really! looking forward to, yet I do wonder how many people will be making use of it? ? This isn't intended to be harsh. Yes, even when comparing audiogames to indi games there are some pretty huge gaps, and yes, the lack of easier development tools like unity is undoubtedly part of the problem, however I tend to agree with Thomas' sentiment her
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
yeah thomas and now that we have talking dosbox working with NVDA we have even more fun games to play. I can play pinochle in talking dosbox. and on the windows side I'm now concentrating on learning how to play spoonbill software chess challenge. once i get good I may get a real accessible chess set from maxi-aids. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/13/2015 9:32 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Dark, That makes two of us. As a software and game developer I often feel like those asking for games equivalent to mainstream games assume that audio game developers aren't developing games equal to their favorite mainstream games out of laziness or perhaps a lack of desire. It feels like they sometimes assume someone can just snap their fingers and voila their is an accessible version of Assassin Creed, Call of ?Duty, or whatever. Things just aren't that simple and straight forward, and take more time, money, and energy to produce than the uninitiated assume. As you so correctly pointed out it is unfair to compare most single audio game developers to multi-million dollar game companies who are developing massively complex games for the mainstream gaming community because we just don't have the time, resources, or ability to compete with that kind of game. It is much more fair and realistic to hold us to the indie standards of smaller indie developers who are developing good games, but on a much smaller budget and less resources. In a case like that I think a lot of audio game developers could improve and develop games on par with the indie games for PC. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark wrote: Hi. To be honest I'm getting a little sick of this "I want a mainstream game" debate. ? People seem to think all mainstream games are complex affairs just because they are graphical and the audio game developers are just being lazyor something or not taking the time. ? The plane fact is even in terms of graphical games, what people are developing with similar resources to audiogames are not huge complex multiplayer 3D monstrosities. Most indi games are by their nature simpler because your comparing the resources of one or two people on their own working probably in their spare time, with a huge multi million dollar company that employs hundreds of developers working 8 hours a day with a gigantic budget of resources. ? IInstead of people saying "where is the audio version of insert mainstream title" I'd suggest people look around at some of the indi produced pc, Ios or android games, the games that do have similar amounts of funding and resources and look at the differences there, why the differences exist and how to reduce them. ? One for example which people mention but which still hasn't had much by way of attention is sound design. A graphics artist can put whatever they want in their game. they want a huge mechanized plant monster from the planet zog, well they can have it, how well it is produced might depend upon how good their graphics artist and animmating program is, but fundamentally they can still have it. The same is not true of audiogames, I still! see people wanting to buy ridiculously expensive soundpacks rather than looking into alternative methods of sound design, indeed we have some talented sound designers in this community. I'd also suggest looking around for sounbds more. ? it amazed me when in 2010, the independently produced game To hell with Johnny (a game with low vision access but no complete audio access), actually had a more rich soundscape than most audiogames. When i asked the developer where he came by sounds, he just said he found them around. Same goes for music, the music in some indi titles has been staggeringly good, mostly becuase people have sought out ameter musicians who are able to do a good job and communicated with them, but for some reason a lot of makers of audiogames just look within the community, and as has been said before there are comparatively few blind people. ? Lastly, one thing which always confuses me is why people don't make more use the tools that are! available, and I'm not just talking about Bgt. ? Swamp Campaign scripting has the potential to create some great stuff, because you can pretty much do whatever you want in first person, create door and lock puzzles, alter health, attacks etc. A while ago someone was bemoaning the fact that there was no audio resident evil, and yet it'd be comparatively easy to create an audio resident evel as a Swamp campaing sinse you've already got all the movement and firing controls, just slow things down (including the zombies), and insert a lot of locked door puzzles and objects to pick up and examine, and vuala! ? The same goes for tactical battle maps and time of conflict maps. Jason Alan is currently working on a modding system for Entombed ii, something which I'm really! looking forward to, yet I do wonder how many people will be making use of it? ? This isn't intended to be harsh. Yes, even w
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
and even if someone like EA games would start making audio games there probably would be no market insentive and they would quickly drop the project. follow me on twitter @joshknnd1982 On 6/13/2015 5:25 AM, dark wrote: Hi. To be honest I'm getting a little sick of this "I want a mainstream game" debate. ? People seem to think all mainstream games are complex affairs just because they are graphical and the audio game developers are just being lazyor something or not taking the time. ? The plane fact is even in terms of graphical games, what people are developing with similar resources to audiogames are not huge complex multiplayer 3D monstrosities. Most indi games are by their nature simpler because your comparing the resources of one or two people on their own working probably in their spare time, with a huge multi million dollar company that employs hundreds of developers working 8 hours a day with a gigantic budget of resources. ? IInstead of people saying "where is the audio version of insert mainstream title" I'd suggest people look around at some of the indi produced pc, Ios or android games, the games that do have similar amounts of funding and resources and look at the differences there, why the differences exist and how to reduce them. ? One for example which people mention but which still hasn't had much by way of attention is sound design. A graphics artist can put whatever they want in their game. they want a huge mechanized plant monster from the planet zog, well they can have it, how well it is produced might depend upon how good their graphics artist and animmating program is, but fundamentally they can still have it. The same is not true of audiogames, I still! see people wanting to buy ridiculously expensive soundpacks rather than looking into alternative methods of sound design, indeed we have some talented sound designers in this community. I'd also suggest looking around for sounbds more. ? it amazed me when in 2010, the independently produced game To hell with Johnny (a game with low vision access but no complete audio access), actually had a more rich soundscape than most audiogames. When i asked the developer where he came by sounds, he just said he found them around. Same goes for music, the music in some indi titles has been staggeringly good, mostly becuase people have sought out ameter musicians who are able to do a good job and communicated with them, but for some reason a lot of makers of audiogames just look within the community, and as has been said before there are comparatively few blind people. ? Lastly, one thing which always confuses me is why people don't make more use the tools that are! available, and I'm not just talking about Bgt. ? Swamp Campaign scripting has the potential to create some great stuff, because you can pretty much do whatever you want in first person, create door and lock puzzles, alter health, attacks etc. A while ago someone was bemoaning the fact that there was no audio resident evil, and yet it'd be comparatively easy to create an audio resident evel as a Swamp campaing sinse you've already got all the movement and firing controls, just slow things down (including the zombies), and insert a lot of locked door puzzles and objects to pick up and examine, and vuala! ? The same goes for tactical battle maps and time of conflict maps. Jason Alan is currently working on a modding system for Entombed ii, something which I'm really! looking forward to, yet I do wonder how many people will be making use of it? ? This isn't intended to be harsh. Yes, even when comparing audiogames to indi games there are some pretty huge gaps, and yes, the lack of easier development tools like unity is undoubtedly part of the problem, however I tend to agree with Thomas' sentiment here. People are very quick to say "oh where is that big complex multi million dollar audiogam" yet even the ones who don't spend their time bashing developers don't tend to be good at solutions or looking around for what "could" be done rather than complaining about what is lacking. ? All the best, ? Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-arch
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Knick. That is an interesting point. one of the things I've noticed with a lot of graphical indi games, is that they're rarely one person who does everything, usually there are two or three people including a coder, a graphic artist and maybe an animater or sound designer. Perhaps having more than one person on the project also means managing stuff like volunteer contributions can be done in a structured way and the person doing the coding can be left to, well coding. Beware the grue! Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: "Nick Adamson" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi dark. There's a couple of factors at play. As has already has been said, game development can take some time and keeping volunteers interested in the medium to long term is quite difficult. Also following through on commitments can be an issue. As an example, when developing Park Boss I asked for volunteers to record short bits of dialog, a number of people contacted me and I sent scripts. That was the last I heard from about a third of the volunteers. Another thing that is a factor is the different recording quality that comes back. This didn't matter too much for Park Boss but in other audio environments could be noticeable and make the game feel disjointed There are a number of things that make managing a team of volunteers harder than employees. Things like wide spread locations, egos and commitment that probably puts developers off. In the end the developers like my self are very much code focussed and managing people takes away from coding time. That's why I think a large scale, volunteer developed game would need someone to act as a project manager who is not the main coder. Just some thoughts. Nick. On 14 Jun 2015, at 12:31, dark wrote: Hi Tom. I don't think it's a legal matter, or at least if it is most developers are pretty quiet about it being such. I suspect it's a combination of developers not asking, people not offering, and of course the problem that particularly with thiungs like voice acting, your dependent upon equipment quality, although that is less of a concern these days than it used to be. I will also admit I've noticed developers are sometimes unwill to recognize their own short falls. Take paladin of the skies, the script really! could've done with a bit of a polish, just to remove some of the more clunky phrasing, make the characters appear less childish and all in all give a better experience, however I don't think it occurred to Aaron that having a professional, or at least volunteer script writer with some degree of writing cudos was something they needed. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Dark, You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find out those reasons and address them. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark wrote: Hi Tom. While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I will say is that games are not just made by developers. There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, music composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so many people in the audiogames community play around with sounds for fun, yet none of them put those tallents into sound des
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi dark. There's a couple of factors at play. As has already has been said, game development can take some time and keeping volunteers interested in the medium to long term is quite difficult. Also following through on commitments can be an issue. As an example, when developing Park Boss I asked for volunteers to record short bits of dialog, a number of people contacted me and I sent scripts. That was the last I heard from about a third of the volunteers. Another thing that is a factor is the different recording quality that comes back. This didn't matter too much for Park Boss but in other audio environments could be noticeable and make the game feel disjointed There are a number of things that make managing a team of volunteers harder than employees. Things like wide spread locations, egos and commitment that probably puts developers off. In the end the developers like my self are very much code focussed and managing people takes away from coding time. That's why I think a large scale, volunteer developed game would need someone to act as a project manager who is not the main coder. Just some thoughts. Nick. > On 14 Jun 2015, at 12:31, dark wrote: > > Hi Tom. > > I don't think it's a legal matter, or at least if it is most developers are > pretty quiet about it being such. > > I suspect it's a combination of developers not asking, people not offering, > and of course the problem that particularly with thiungs like voice acting, > your dependent upon equipment quality, although that is less of a concern > these days than it used to be. > > I will also admit I've noticed developers are sometimes unwill to recognize > their own short falls. > > Take paladin of the skies, the script really! could've done with a bit of a > polish, just to remove some of the more clunky phrasing, make the characters > appear less childish and all in all give a better experience, however I don't > think it occurred to Aaron that having a professional, or at least volunteer > script writer with some degree of writing cudos was something they needed. > > > All the best, > > Dark. > There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast > and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even > the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. > - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" > To: "Gamers Discussion list" > Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 7:24 AM > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine > > >> Hi Dark, >> >> You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure >> why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers >> with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as >> developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support >> from outside help. >> >> One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it >> also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't >> necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has >> to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a >> license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the >> owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they >> want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material >> and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that >> some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating >> from some legal standpoint. >> >> That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't >> necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to >> find out those reasons and address them. >> >> Cheers! >> >> >>> On 6/13/15, dark wrote: >>> Hi Tom. >>> >>> While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I >>> will say is that games are not just made by developers. >>> There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi >>> graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, music >>> >>> composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so many >>> people in the audiogames community play around with sounds for fun, yet none >>> >>> of them put those tallents into sound design, or the way you have talented >>> writers and actors and yet such people do not seem to be getting in touch >>> with developers to assist for one reason or another. >>> >>> Indeed, swamp is a good example sinse I do know that while all the coding >>> and large parts of the basic design are Aprones, he has had assistance from >>> >>> several people as far as creating sounds go. >>> >>> So, while I'm sure your right on collaboration with different developers, I >>> >>> do think there would be milage in developers handing at least some aspects >>> of the production process over to other people. >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Dark. >>> There is always more to know, more to see, more to le
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Dark, Yes, I think you have a definite point about developers perhaps not being aware of their own shortcomings. That would include even me at times. I suspect the reason is that a lot of developers get into writing games because they have a very specific idea, dream, or concept for a game. Something that appeals to them and they set out to create the game as they imagine it. Unfortunately, like everyone the developer may have shortcomings that makes the end result less than a quality production, and because it is their dream game, their own idea, they feel a bit embarrassed or even perhaps a bit sensitive about letting someone else help work on it. I can confess to some of that myself. In short it is very easy for a developer to turn down any offers for help out of some personal sense of wanting to do it all themselves. Perhaps not recognizing or seeing their own shortcomings in the process. As a result the final product is something below professional standards just because the developer was lacking in a certain area and was unable to foresee their own shortcomings in that regard. Cheers! On 6/14/15, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > I don't think it's a legal matter, or at least if it is most developers are > > pretty quiet about it being such. > > I suspect it's a combination of developers not asking, people not offering, > > and of course the problem that particularly with thiungs like voice acting, > > your dependent upon equipment quality, although that is less of a concern > these days than it used to be. > > I will also admit I've noticed developers are sometimes unwill to recognize > > their own short falls. > > Take paladin of the skies, the script really! could've done with a bit of a > > polish, just to remove some of the more clunky phrasing, make the characters > > appear less childish and all in all give a better experience, however I > don't think it occurred to Aaron that having a professional, or at least > volunteer script writer with some degree of writing cudos was something they > > needed. > > > All the best, > > Dark. > There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast > > and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even > the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine
Hi Tom. I don't think it's a legal matter, or at least if it is most developers are pretty quiet about it being such. I suspect it's a combination of developers not asking, people not offering, and of course the problem that particularly with thiungs like voice acting, your dependent upon equipment quality, although that is less of a concern these days than it used to be. I will also admit I've noticed developers are sometimes unwill to recognize their own short falls. Take paladin of the skies, the script really! could've done with a bit of a polish, just to remove some of the more clunky phrasing, make the characters appear less childish and all in all give a better experience, however I don't think it occurred to Aaron that having a professional, or at least volunteer script writer with some degree of writing cudos was something they needed. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2015 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] info AudioGames Game Engine Hi Dark, You bring up a very good point, and to be honest I'm not quite sure why the community hasn't been more active in supporting our developers with sounds,music, scripts, whatever. It could be as simple as developers haven't asked or developers have been closed to support from outside help. One issue I need to bring up is while volunteer work is wonderful it also can be a bit sticky from a legal point of view. Copyrights aren't necessarily designed for content to freely be given away so there has to be written contracts that turns a license or the sharing of a license over to a developer else it can be legally entangling if the owner of a specific sound, music, script, whatever later decides they want exorcize their rights as the owner of said copyrighted material and that puts the developer in a bit of a bind. So it is possible that some developers and community designers are hesitant of collaborating from some legal standpoint. That's only a guess of course, but there are reasons why things aren't necessarily falling into place. It would be in our best interests to find out those reasons and address them. Cheers! On 6/13/15, dark wrote: Hi Tom. While I'm sure your right as far as different developers go, one thing I will say is that games are not just made by developers. There are script writers, voice actors, sound designers. Even in the indi graphical games community a coder doesn't do all ttheir own graphics, music composition etc. One thing I always find a bit odd is the way that so many people in the audiogames community play around with sounds for fun, yet none of them put those tallents into sound design, or the way you have talented writers and actors and yet such people do not seem to be getting in touch with developers to assist for one reason or another. Indeed, swamp is a good example sinse I do know that while all the coding and large parts of the basic design are Aprones, he has had assistance from several people as far as creating sounds go. So, while I'm sure your right on collaboration with different developers, I do think there would be milage in developers handing at least some aspects of the production process over to other people. All the best, Dark. There is always more to know, more to see, more to learn. The world is vast and wondrous strange and there are more things benieth the stars than even the archmaesters of the citadel can dream. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
