Re: [Audyssey] Understanding the Pinball Concept

2016-04-13 Thread dark

Hi Sharren.

The way pinball works is you have a table that inclines away from you. At 
the bottom end towards you is the drain, ie, the place where your ball will 
go if you don't flip it away, a little like the goal in air hockey. Either 
side of the drain are two flippers, which are small flat peaces of metal or 
plastic that flick upwards, and can bounce a ball up the table, (though 
it'll inevitably roll down).


The table itself is full of mechanical apparatus all designed to change how 
the ball moves and get score. There are pads your ball can roll over to 
create more score, bumpers to bounce off, spinners that spinn around when 
your ball hits them, parts of the table that might lower in order to give 
you access to higher scoring areas etc. The object is to bounce your ball 
around, making sure it doesn't go down the drain and scoring as much as 
possible.


The esp pinball games for the pc from draconis are a wonderful simulation of 
pinball and also have great explanations of all the things you can find on 
tables, as well as some very funny challenges, I'd highly recommend them.


I've not played the blindfold version for Ios, though I do intend to, sinse 
pinball (when you can hear what is happening and track where the ball is 
going as in the esp games), is a huge amount of fun.


hth.

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] About games rolling out in a matter of a couple of months, or weeks?

2016-04-13 Thread Devin Prater
Well, to be honest, they are simple games. Not that simple is always bad, but 
I'd love to see how he'd do a long-term game project, like an RPG or something 
like that. Of course, he'd have to spend a little more time writing, as the 
games have at least a few spelling or grammar errors, but besides that I think 
he'd do well. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 12, 2016, at 11:08 PM, Sharon Hooley  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I must say that, although I haven't played all the Blindfold games, I've 
> become a fan of Kidfriendly Software!  And I'm curious, how do developers, 
> including from this company, roll out the games so quickly? [smile)
> 
> 
> 
> Sharon H.
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Re: [Audyssey] About games rolling out in a matter of a couple of months, or weeks?

2016-04-13 Thread Michael Feir
I certainly hope he eventually attempts a more complex game. Actually,
there's a lot he could do with Pinball now that he has the basics
pretty well down. One thing to note here is that he always seems to
look for ways to reuse what he's already created. The ball physics so
vital to good Pinball have been honed in previous games like bowling
and his version of Skiball. It would take a whole lot longer to crank
out games if he did each of even these more simple ones from scratch.

Basically, developers are put in a vicious catch22 setup economically.
You need to initially crank out as many games as you can in order to
generate income you can invest in better assets. It's next to
impossible to really make a living as a developer of games primarily
for the blind. Creating games which truly engage the sighted player
but still let blind people play on equal terms is no easy task. Back
when I edited audyssey, we had a real problem of impatience since a
lot of blind people really didn't understand the disadvantages of
scale our developers operated under. Most modern apps and games
enjoyed by sighted players have actual companies behind them. A good
rpg would have writers, programmers, all sorts of artists, game
designers and actors working on it. There might be hundreds of people.
It's all too easy to face our one or two-person developers with the
impossible task of creating something normally done by dozens of
people.

Once the audio engine from Something Else software is made available,
it wouldn't surprise me if we saw some spectacular uses of it
presuming changes in how iOS handles audio don't render it obsolete.
These are very exciting times for blind gamers. I would never have
guessed we were in for such a golden age.

On 4/13/16, Devin Prater  wrote:
> Well, to be honest, they are simple games. Not that simple is always bad,
> but I'd love to see how he'd do a long-term game project, like an RPG or
> something like that. Of course, he'd have to spend a little more time
> writing, as the games have at least a few spelling or grammar errors, but
> besides that I think he'd do well.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Apr 12, 2016, at 11:08 PM, Sharon Hooley  wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I must say that, although I haven't played all the Blindfold games, I've
>> become a fan of Kidfriendly Software!  And I'm curious, how do developers,
>> including from this company, roll out the games so quickly? [smile)
>>
>>
>>
>> Sharon H.
>> ---
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>> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
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>
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-- 
Michael Feir
Creator and presenter of Journeys of the Mind: Play is Where Community Begins
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2015/01/journeys-of-mind-play-is-where.html

Volunteer at New Horizons Peel Multicultural Centre
www.peelmc.ca
2014--2015

Disability advocate
Meadowvale Community Christian Reformed Church
www.meadowvalecrc.ca
2013--2014

Volunteer at The Dam
http://www.thedam.org
2011-2013
Twitter: mfeir
Skype: michael-feir
Author of Personal Power:
How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People
2006-2008
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/personal-power.html

A Life of Word and Sound
2003-2007
http://michaelfeir.blogspot.ca/2009/01/life-of-word-and-sound.html

Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004
Check out my blog at:
http://www.michaelfeir.blogspot.ca

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[Audyssey] Why I build the games as I do

2016-04-13 Thread Marty Schultz

Michael is quite correct in how I approach the games.

Basically, I build the games for all visually impaired people, most of 
whom do not like to play RPGs.  While the games don't make much money, 
and certainly don't pay for my time, they do offset the out of pocket 
costs.  I tend to re-use as much as possible in each game, to make the 
next game that much better.  By re-using the programming code, it means 
I can spend my time on the differences between two games, rather than 
build from the ground up.  And it took about two years to get there.


I now have a common infrastructure between all of the games, so simple 
things, like settings screens or posting to facebook, twitter or game 
center is just a matter of including a module.  Creating the original 
infrastructure to post to facebook, etc. took 2 or 3 weeks spread out 
over a year.  It's general rule of thumb that any program needs to be 
revised and rebuilt 3 times before you get it right.  At this point, the 
infrastructure is a that point, and most of the games have gone through 
3 generations of being re-created.


Mastering the physics engine enabled me to spin out a bunch of games 
quickly, but what always happens is that the details of the game take 
forever.  For example, pool, which will be out in a few weeks, took only 
3 days to convert from vee ball.  However, it was another 3 weeks before 
the pool game was stable, and fun to play.  I had slews of issues in the 
game, such as using the physics engine properly to allow 15 balls to 
move around and make their sounds, without it getting so slow that the 
sound was stuttering.  Then I had to design and debug several ways to 
select and aim your cue stick.  Then I had to create the game rules for 
about 6 different games.  And do all of this with the ability to move it 
to a multi-player game some time in the future.


With the multi-player infrastructure, I've re-written that about 5 
times, and the latest one seems to be reliable.  I prototyped the latest 
version on crazy 8, and then moved it to wildcard.  It took about 4 days 
to adjust wildcard to handle it, and in the process found more flaws in 
the crazy 8 game, and fixed those.  Then I moved the multi-player 
ability to road trip, and that took about 3 days, and found more flaws, 
so I had to fix those, and re-release crazy 8 and wildcard.  I'll 
probably make bowling multi-player next, and hopefully that will take 
only 2 days.  Eventually, I should be able to get adding multi-player to 
any game in about a day.


These games could actually make enough money to employ multiple 
programmers, but market penetration is the killer.  There are at least 
20,000 blind people with iphones or ipads in the USA alone, and less 
than 1,000 know about my games, and 80% of those people don't buy anything.





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Re: [Audyssey] Why I build the games as I do

2016-04-13 Thread dark

@Marty, Blind people don't like rpgs? not true.

Go and check audiogames.net and observe the amount of people who reply to 
rpg related topics, or indeed post a topic and ask. I suspect the 
information you got from that statement was from a local focus group, ie, 
society or association for the blind. Unfortunately, such places tend to 
have a generally older population who are primarily interested in 
traditional type games, however for younger gamers (and indeed those more 
likely to own Ios devices), something a little more modern and complex would 
appeal more, indeed part of the problem with audiogames development is that 
there is a large amount of traditional games available and not so much that 
is none traditional, ie, I can think of about 8 versions of blackjack over 
the years, but not one single version of a modern fantasy board game like 
Talisman, much less a ccg, collectable card game.



I'll also add that rpgs don't need to be as complex as the games produced by 
companies like namco and squaresoft. dungeons and dragons do very well with 
basic mechanics, indeed most of what an rpg does mechanically can be 
represented by dice rolls and risk assessments, the one difference is that 
you have story and atmosphere added to that, as well as player progression 
over time.


You might begin therefore by adapting some of the multiplayer fantasy themed 
card and board games for Ios, games like heroes of the multiverse or 
talisman, or creating your own along similar lines if copywrite is an issue. 
These would be mechanically similar to games like roadtrip, hearts or dice 
poker, just with more text involved, eg, a player would encounter a monster 
with a description of it's stats and be required to roll dice for combat, or 
a player would encounter a magical object card and decide whether to take it 
with them or not.


While I do enjoy the games in the collection thus far, I am a little sorry 
none are games intended for longer or more complex play. There's nothing 
wrong with a game of hearts, blackjack  etc or a quick arcade game, however 
unfortunately there has already been a lot of that sort of thing produced, 
indeed I do wonder if some people are taking the attitude "well there are 
several versions of hearts for pc, why should I pay to have one on my 
Iphone?"


this isn't meant as an attack, as I said I enjoy the games for what they 
are, it just saddens me to see developers now producing exactly the same 
sorts of games we were seeing in the community 10 years ago, especially with 
the greater distribution and easier development inherent on Ios, indeed it's 
a little ironic that with one exception all of the more complex games we've 
seen recently for Pc or Ios have been games produced by sighted developers 
who have accidently created accessible games, or have included access 
requests in games that are %80 accessible such as adventure to fate, where 
as games produced with the express intention of writing games for blind 
people have intended to be simpler.


This isn't to say "where's audio final fantasy", only that some change and 
advancement would be nice, especially if kidfriendly software are doing so 
well as a company.


All the best,

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Why I build the games as I do

2016-04-13 Thread rajmund

Hi,
I want games, where I can play against people.  I sometimes do 
try the games as they come out, but I

always go back to dice world, and things of the nature.
Sent from a BrailleNote

- Original Message -
From: "dark" Go and check audiogames.net and observe the amount of people who 
reply to
rpg related topics, or indeed post a topic and ask.  I suspect 
the
information you got from that statement was from a local focus 
group, ie,
society or association for the blind.  Unfortunately, such places 
tend to

have a generally older population who are primarily interested in
traditional type games, however for younger gamers (and indeed 
those more
likely to own Ios devices), something a little more modern and 
complex would
appeal more, indeed part of the problem with audiogames 
development is that
there is a large amount of traditional games available and not so 
much that
is none traditional, ie, I can think of about 8 versions of 
blackjack over
the years, but not one single version of a modern fantasy board 
game like

Talisman, much less a ccg, collectable card game.


I'll also add that rpgs don't need to be as complex as the games 
produced by
companies like namco and squaresoft.  dungeons and dragons do 
very well with
basic mechanics, indeed most of what an rpg does mechanically can 
be
represented by dice rolls and risk assessments, the one 
difference is that
you have story and atmosphere added to that, as well as player 
progression

over time.

You might begin therefore by adapting some of the multiplayer 
fantasy themed
card and board games for Ios, games like heroes of the multiverse 
or
talisman, or creating your own along similar lines if copywrite 
is an issue.
These would be mechanically similar to games like roadtrip, 
hearts or dice
poker, just with more text involved, eg, a player would encounter 
a monster
with a description of it's stats and be required to roll dice for 
combat, or
a player would encounter a magical object card and decide whether 
to take it

with them or not.

While I do enjoy the games in the collection thus far, I am a 
little sorry
none are games intended for longer or more complex play.  There's 
nothing
wrong with a game of hearts, blackjack  etc or a quick arcade 
game, however
unfortunately there has already been a lot of that sort of thing 
produced,
indeed I do wonder if some people are taking the attitude "well 
there are
several versions of hearts for pc, why should I pay to have one 
on my

Iphone?"

this isn't meant as an attack, as I said I enjoy the games for 
what they
are, it just saddens me to see developers now producing exactly 
the same
sorts of games we were seeing in the community 10 years ago, 
especially with
the greater distribution and easier development inherent on Ios, 
indeed it's
a little ironic that with one exception all of the more complex 
games we've
seen recently for Pc or Ios have been games produced by sighted 
developers
who have accidently created accessible games, or have included 
access
requests in games that are %80 accessible such as adventure to 
fate, where
as games produced with the express intention of writing games for 
blind

people have intended to be simpler.

This isn't to say "where's audio final fantasy", only that some 
change and
advancement would be nice, especially if kidfriendly software are 
doing so

well as a company.

All the best,

Dark.


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[Audyssey] iDevice game thoughts - Re: Why I build the games as I do

2016-04-13 Thread Charles Rivard
For me, lengthy and complex role playing games are not for the iPhone.  The 
games that I would prefer are usually games that I must react to action or 
use dice to score, or something along that nature.  A game such as chess or 
checkers will work well, too, although I have to have a separate board for 
scoping out my next move.  I find it very difficult to explore a board using 
speech only.  I very much prefer to look at the whole board without having 
to memorize where the pieces are.  Arcade games work well on an iDevice, as 
well as a game in which you drive a vehicle on tracks.


I have seen books of instructions for Dungeons and Dragons and other such 
games, and they! are! huge!!  There is no way that I'm going to remember all 
of those rules, and games for iDevices work best if they don't require 
months to play.  I can play Blindfold Pinball or Blindfold Bowling for 
either a few minutes or a few hours, and ther is an end to each game.  In an 
RPG, it takes forever, if there is even a victor.  I think it is a personal 
opinion, but I just don't think that an RPG is best suited for iDevice 
gaming.  Sports games or arcade games, and dice competition games such as 
Dice World, or even sound oriented adventure games are more suited for them.





If you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished!!
-Original Message- 
From: dark

Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 9:34 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Why I build the games as I do

@Marty, Blind people don't like rpgs? not true.

Go and check audiogames.net and observe the amount of people who reply to
rpg related topics, or indeed post a topic and ask. I suspect the
information you got from that statement was from a local focus group, ie,
society or association for the blind. Unfortunately, such places tend to
have a generally older population who are primarily interested in
traditional type games, however for younger gamers (and indeed those more
likely to own Ios devices), something a little more modern and complex would
appeal more, indeed part of the problem with audiogames development is that
there is a large amount of traditional games available and not so much that
is none traditional, ie, I can think of about 8 versions of blackjack over
the years, but not one single version of a modern fantasy board game like
Talisman, much less a ccg, collectable card game.


I'll also add that rpgs don't need to be as complex as the games produced by
companies like namco and squaresoft. dungeons and dragons do very well with
basic mechanics, indeed most of what an rpg does mechanically can be
represented by dice rolls and risk assessments, the one difference is that
you have story and atmosphere added to that, as well as player progression
over time.

You might begin therefore by adapting some of the multiplayer fantasy themed
card and board games for Ios, games like heroes of the multiverse or
talisman, or creating your own along similar lines if copywrite is an issue.
These would be mechanically similar to games like roadtrip, hearts or dice
poker, just with more text involved, eg, a player would encounter a monster
with a description of it's stats and be required to roll dice for combat, or
a player would encounter a magical object card and decide whether to take it
with them or not.

While I do enjoy the games in the collection thus far, I am a little sorry
none are games intended for longer or more complex play. There's nothing
wrong with a game of hearts, blackjack  etc or a quick arcade game, however
unfortunately there has already been a lot of that sort of thing produced,
indeed I do wonder if some people are taking the attitude "well there are
several versions of hearts for pc, why should I pay to have one on my
Iphone?"

this isn't meant as an attack, as I said I enjoy the games for what they
are, it just saddens me to see developers now producing exactly the same
sorts of games we were seeing in the community 10 years ago, especially with
the greater distribution and easier development inherent on Ios, indeed it's
a little ironic that with one exception all of the more complex games we've
seen recently for Pc or Ios have been games produced by sighted developers
who have accidently created accessible games, or have included access
requests in games that are %80 accessible such as adventure to fate, where
as games produced with the express intention of writing games for blind
people have intended to be simpler.

This isn't to say "where's audio final fantasy", only that some change and
advancement would be nice, especially if kidfriendly software are doing so
well as a company.

All the best,

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] Why I build the games as I do

2016-04-13 Thread Darren Harris
Hi,

I like complex games. Not necessarily a complex interface but a complex game
never the less. I like it to have a lot of replayability, lots to discover
within the game. Something that's persistent.

-Original Message-
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of rajmund
Sent: 13 April 2016 17:03
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Why I build the games as I do

Hi,
I want games, where I can play against people.  I sometimes do try the games
as they come out, but I always go back to dice world, and things of the
nature.
Sent from a BrailleNote

 - Original Message -
From: "dark" http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
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Re: [Audyssey] iDevice game thoughts - Re: Why I build the games as I do

2016-04-13 Thread Michael Feir
Oh awesome! I get to completely disagree with Charles on my brand new
laptop! What glorious fun! The big advantage of computer rpgs is that
you just don't have to remember all the rules. The better a grasp you
have on them, the better a player you'll be. However, good computer
rpgs have intuitive interfaces and handle all the complicated
consequences of your decisions. For example, you might decide to talk
with a character. You'd be presented with a series of choices as to
what to say or how you approach the conversation. You could offer all
those in simple buttons or combo boxes plus text and stats. That and
good story are at the heart of every rpg. Again, no reason at all that
you couldn't have that presented with Voiceover or through fully
dramatized sound and human actors. The iPHONE is certainly powerful
enough to handle that.

Look at King of Dragon Pass. A whole lot of complexity but actually
operating the game is very simple. A whole lot is going on behind the
scenes as clan relationships change, different characters develop and
age, and lots more. The interface allows you to focus on the areas
which interest you at a given moment. The iPHONE is very well suited
to such games. They are, however, harder to produce.



On 4/13/16, Charles Rivard  wrote:
> For me, lengthy and complex role playing games are not for the iPhone.  The
>
> games that I would prefer are usually games that I must react to action or
> use dice to score, or something along that nature.  A game such as chess or
>
> checkers will work well, too, although I have to have a separate board for
> scoping out my next move.  I find it very difficult to explore a board using
>
> speech only.  I very much prefer to look at the whole board without having
> to memorize where the pieces are.  Arcade games work well on an iDevice, as
>
> well as a game in which you drive a vehicle on tracks.
>
> I have seen books of instructions for Dungeons and Dragons and other such
> games, and they! are! huge!!  There is no way that I'm going to remember all
>
> of those rules, and games for iDevices work best if they don't require
> months to play.  I can play Blindfold Pinball or Blindfold Bowling for
> either a few minutes or a few hours, and ther is an end to each game.  In an
>
> RPG, it takes forever, if there is even a victor.  I think it is a personal
>
> opinion, but I just don't think that an RPG is best suited for iDevice
> gaming.  Sports games or arcade games, and dice competition games such as
> Dice World, or even sound oriented adventure games are more suited for
> them.
>
>
>
>
> If you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished!!
> -Original Message-
> From: dark
> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 9:34 AM
> To: Gamers Discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Why I build the games as I do
>
> @Marty, Blind people don't like rpgs? not true.
>
> Go and check audiogames.net and observe the amount of people who reply to
> rpg related topics, or indeed post a topic and ask. I suspect the
> information you got from that statement was from a local focus group, ie,
> society or association for the blind. Unfortunately, such places tend to
> have a generally older population who are primarily interested in
> traditional type games, however for younger gamers (and indeed those more
> likely to own Ios devices), something a little more modern and complex
> would
> appeal more, indeed part of the problem with audiogames development is that
> there is a large amount of traditional games available and not so much that
> is none traditional, ie, I can think of about 8 versions of blackjack over
> the years, but not one single version of a modern fantasy board game like
> Talisman, much less a ccg, collectable card game.
>
>
> I'll also add that rpgs don't need to be as complex as the games produced
> by
> companies like namco and squaresoft. dungeons and dragons do very well with
> basic mechanics, indeed most of what an rpg does mechanically can be
> represented by dice rolls and risk assessments, the one difference is that
> you have story and atmosphere added to that, as well as player progression
> over time.
>
> You might begin therefore by adapting some of the multiplayer fantasy
> themed
> card and board games for Ios, games like heroes of the multiverse or
> talisman, or creating your own along similar lines if copywrite is an
> issue.
> These would be mechanically similar to games like roadtrip, hearts or dice
> poker, just with more text involved, eg, a player would encounter a monster
> with a description of it's stats and be required to roll dice for combat,
> or
> a player would encounter a magical object card and decide whether to take
> it
> with them or not.
>
> While I do enjoy the games in the collection thus far, I am a little sorry
> none are games intended for longer or more complex play. There's nothing
> wrong with a game of hearts, blackjack  etc or a quick arcade game, however
> unfortunately there has already be

Re: [Audyssey] iDevice game thoughts - Re: Why I build the games as I do

2016-04-13 Thread dark

Hi Charlse.

I really don't see what is wrong with complex rpg games on the iPhone? look 
at king of dragon pass. True, casual games to whip a device out of your 
pocket and play are good, and there are plenty of good examples of such, 
however just because a device can! be a portable games playing device 
doesn't mean you can't use it at home, several days I've spent on Kodp, 
adventure to fate  and some of the choiceofgames interactive stories 
definitely show that.


All the best,

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Rivard" 

To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 5:40 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] iDevice game thoughts - Re: Why I build the games as I 
do



For me, lengthy and complex role playing games are not for the iPhone. 
The games that I would prefer are usually games that I must react to 
action or use dice to score, or something along that nature.  A game such 
as chess or checkers will work well, too, although I have to have a 
separate board for scoping out my next move.  I find it very difficult to 
explore a board using speech only.  I very much prefer to look at the 
whole board without having to memorize where the pieces are.  Arcade games 
work well on an iDevice, as well as a game in which you drive a vehicle on 
tracks.


I have seen books of instructions for Dungeons and Dragons and other such 
games, and they! are! huge!!  There is no way that I'm going to remember 
all of those rules, and games for iDevices work best if they don't require 
months to play.  I can play Blindfold Pinball or Blindfold Bowling for 
either a few minutes or a few hours, and ther is an end to each game.  In 
an RPG, it takes forever, if there is even a victor.  I think it is a 
personal opinion, but I just don't think that an RPG is best suited for 
iDevice gaming.  Sports games or arcade games, and dice competition games 
such as Dice World, or even sound oriented adventure games are more suited 
for them.





If you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished!!
-Original Message- 
From: dark

Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 9:34 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Why I build the games as I do

@Marty, Blind people don't like rpgs? not true.

Go and check audiogames.net and observe the amount of people who reply to
rpg related topics, or indeed post a topic and ask. I suspect the
information you got from that statement was from a local focus group, ie,
society or association for the blind. Unfortunately, such places tend to
have a generally older population who are primarily interested in
traditional type games, however for younger gamers (and indeed those more
likely to own Ios devices), something a little more modern and complex 
would
appeal more, indeed part of the problem with audiogames development is 
that
there is a large amount of traditional games available and not so much 
that

is none traditional, ie, I can think of about 8 versions of blackjack over
the years, but not one single version of a modern fantasy board game like
Talisman, much less a ccg, collectable card game.


I'll also add that rpgs don't need to be as complex as the games produced 
by
companies like namco and squaresoft. dungeons and dragons do very well 
with

basic mechanics, indeed most of what an rpg does mechanically can be
represented by dice rolls and risk assessments, the one difference is that
you have story and atmosphere added to that, as well as player progression
over time.

You might begin therefore by adapting some of the multiplayer fantasy 
themed

card and board games for Ios, games like heroes of the multiverse or
talisman, or creating your own along similar lines if copywrite is an 
issue.

These would be mechanically similar to games like roadtrip, hearts or dice
poker, just with more text involved, eg, a player would encounter a 
monster
with a description of it's stats and be required to roll dice for combat, 
or
a player would encounter a magical object card and decide whether to take 
it

with them or not.

While I do enjoy the games in the collection thus far, I am a little sorry
none are games intended for longer or more complex play. There's nothing
wrong with a game of hearts, blackjack  etc or a quick arcade game, 
however

unfortunately there has already been a lot of that sort of thing produced,
indeed I do wonder if some people are taking the attitude "well there are
several versions of hearts for pc, why should I pay to have one on my
Iphone?"

this isn't meant as an attack, as I said I enjoy the games for what they
are, it just saddens me to see developers now producing exactly the same
sorts of games we were seeing in the community 10 years ago, especially 
with
the greater distribution and easier development inherent on Ios, indeed 
it's
a little ironic that with one exception all of the more complex games 
we've

seen recently for Pc or Ios have been games produced by sighted developers
who have accidently created accessib

Re: [Audyssey] iDevice game thoughts - Re: Why I build the games asI do

2016-04-13 Thread dark
I totally agree Michael that you can have complex games on the Iphone, 
however replayable rpgs don't have to be complex, just by using shuffle card 
mechanics and basic dice rolls, you can make sure the player doesn't always 
know what is around the corner, or has to alter their stratogy according to 
the situation.


Look at old dos games like fallthru, eamon, or even some of the early 
console rpgs.


Yes, a game like Kodp, or something equally complex is fantastic, but not 
all rpgs need to be like that, they just need to use a little variation in 
encounters and give the player choices about how she/he acts and responds to 
situations. 



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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

2016-04-13 Thread Jeremy Brown
In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
on more ambitious games.

Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.

I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:

You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
into account sound scape or voice acting.

It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a game and
it's a never go back to proposition.  Further, if you want to keep the
costs reasonable, you have to make choices.  You can't release a
professionally produced sound scape, voice acting, music background,
story, proofreading, and fully tested and stable code and charge only
10 dollars for it.  A lot of the sorts of games that people cite when
they mention this genre are games that originally retaled for well
over $35 or 40 U.S. or, have monthly subscription charges that come to
the same thing.  While Marty's assessment that most blind people don't
like RPG's might be skewed, he is right that most blind people will
not pay for the kind of quality that most would like to demand.  Not
in my experience in any case.  That said, I know all the developers on
list attempt to put out as professional and interesting a game as they
can.  Remember too, that by moving his company to an IOS focus, Marty
is not breaking new ground in terms of style of game perhaps, but by
moving into the mobile app market he has broken ground for blind
people and audio games in terms of providing well received simple
games that are inexpensive.  That is a huge step from the any audio
game is either cheap and developed as a labor of love by one
programmer or $40 and developed to be profitable, or at least,
hopefully profitable.

As usual, my two cents.  I'll expect change from that please :)

Take care,

Jeremy




-- 
In the fight between you and the world--back the world! Frank Zapa

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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
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Re: [Audyssey] iDevice game thoughts - Re: Why I build the games as I do

2016-04-13 Thread brennenkinch
To me if I ever playing RPG game I really would like to play something a little 
less start than a lot of the RPG games that you see out there today

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 13, 2016, at 1:04 PM, dark  wrote:
> 
> Hi Charlse.
> 
> I really don't see what is wrong with complex rpg games on the iPhone? look 
> at king of dragon pass. True, casual games to whip a device out of your 
> pocket and play are good, and there are plenty of good examples of such, 
> however just because a device can! be a portable games playing device doesn't 
> mean you can't use it at home, several days I've spent on Kodp, adventure to 
> fate  and some of the choiceofgames interactive stories definitely show that.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Dark.
> - Original Message - From: "Charles Rivard" 
> To: "Gamers Discussion list" 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 5:40 PM
> Subject: [Audyssey] iDevice game thoughts - Re: Why I build the games as I do
> 
> 
>> For me, lengthy and complex role playing games are not for the iPhone. The 
>> games that I would prefer are usually games that I must react to action or 
>> use dice to score, or something along that nature.  A game such as chess or 
>> checkers will work well, too, although I have to have a separate board for 
>> scoping out my next move.  I find it very difficult to explore a board using 
>> speech only.  I very much prefer to look at the whole board without having 
>> to memorize where the pieces are.  Arcade games work well on an iDevice, as 
>> well as a game in which you drive a vehicle on tracks.
>> 
>> I have seen books of instructions for Dungeons and Dragons and other such 
>> games, and they! are! huge!!  There is no way that I'm going to remember all 
>> of those rules, and games for iDevices work best if they don't require 
>> months to play.  I can play Blindfold Pinball or Blindfold Bowling for 
>> either a few minutes or a few hours, and ther is an end to each game.  In an 
>> RPG, it takes forever, if there is even a victor.  I think it is a personal 
>> opinion, but I just don't think that an RPG is best suited for iDevice 
>> gaming.  Sports games or arcade games, and dice competition games such as 
>> Dice World, or even sound oriented adventure games are more suited for them.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> If you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished!!
>> -Original Message- From: dark
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 9:34 AM
>> To: Gamers Discussion list
>> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Why I build the games as I do
>> 
>> @Marty, Blind people don't like rpgs? not true.
>> 
>> Go and check audiogames.net and observe the amount of people who reply to
>> rpg related topics, or indeed post a topic and ask. I suspect the
>> information you got from that statement was from a local focus group, ie,
>> society or association for the blind. Unfortunately, such places tend to
>> have a generally older population who are primarily interested in
>> traditional type games, however for younger gamers (and indeed those more
>> likely to own Ios devices), something a little more modern and complex would
>> appeal more, indeed part of the problem with audiogames development is that
>> there is a large amount of traditional games available and not so much that
>> is none traditional, ie, I can think of about 8 versions of blackjack over
>> the years, but not one single version of a modern fantasy board game like
>> Talisman, much less a ccg, collectable card game.
>> 
>> 
>> I'll also add that rpgs don't need to be as complex as the games produced by
>> companies like namco and squaresoft. dungeons and dragons do very well with
>> basic mechanics, indeed most of what an rpg does mechanically can be
>> represented by dice rolls and risk assessments, the one difference is that
>> you have story and atmosphere added to that, as well as player progression
>> over time.
>> 
>> You might begin therefore by adapting some of the multiplayer fantasy themed
>> card and board games for Ios, games like heroes of the multiverse or
>> talisman, or creating your own along similar lines if copywrite is an issue.
>> These would be mechanically similar to games like roadtrip, hearts or dice
>> poker, just with more text involved, eg, a player would encounter a monster
>> with a description of it's stats and be required to roll dice for combat, or
>> a player would encounter a magical object card and decide whether to take it
>> with them or not.
>> 
>> While I do enjoy the games in the collection thus far, I am a little sorry
>> none are games intended for longer or more complex play. There's nothing
>> wrong with a game of hearts, blackjack  etc or a quick arcade game, however
>> unfortunately there has already been a lot of that sort of thing produced,
>> indeed I do wonder if some people are taking the attitude "well there are
>> several versions of hearts for pc, why should I pay to have one on my
>> Iphone?"
>> 
>> this isn't meant as an attack, as I said I enjoy the games f

Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

2016-04-13 Thread Justin Jones
Torchlight would like a word with you, vis-a-vis complex games
released for cheap.

On 4/13/16, Jeremy Brown  wrote:
> In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
> situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
> consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
> years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
> relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
> and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
> a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
> platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
> on more ambitious games.
>
> Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
> ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.
>
> I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:
>
> You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
> have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
> possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
> novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
> to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
> text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
> into account sound scape or voice acting.
>
> It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
> games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
> from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
> and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a game and
> it's a never go back to proposition.  Further, if you want to keep the
> costs reasonable, you have to make choices.  You can't release a
> professionally produced sound scape, voice acting, music background,
> story, proofreading, and fully tested and stable code and charge only
> 10 dollars for it.  A lot of the sorts of games that people cite when
> they mention this genre are games that originally retaled for well
> over $35 or 40 U.S. or, have monthly subscription charges that come to
> the same thing.  While Marty's assessment that most blind people don't
> like RPG's might be skewed, he is right that most blind people will
> not pay for the kind of quality that most would like to demand.  Not
> in my experience in any case.  That said, I know all the developers on
> list attempt to put out as professional and interesting a game as they
> can.  Remember too, that by moving his company to an IOS focus, Marty
> is not breaking new ground in terms of style of game perhaps, but by
> moving into the mobile app market he has broken ground for blind
> people and audio games in terms of providing well received simple
> games that are inexpensive.  That is a huge step from the any audio
> game is either cheap and developed as a labor of love by one
> programmer or $40 and developed to be profitable, or at least,
> hopefully profitable.
>
> As usual, my two cents.  I'll expect change from that please :)
>
> Take care,
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>
> --
> In the fight between you and the world--back the world! Frank Zapa
>
> ---
> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
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-- 
Justin M. Jones, M.A.
atreides...@gmail.com
(254) 624-9155
701 Ewing St. #509-C, Ft. Wayne IN, 46802

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Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

2016-04-13 Thread Darren Harris
Hi,

I have 1 thing to say about replayable games,

Swamp. That's a 1 man band doing all that, look at how good a game that is?
Now have something like that on the iPhone and that would be awesome.

-Original Message-
From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Brown
Sent: 13 April 2016 18:36
To: gamers
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] why i build the games the way I do

In response to Marty's post, I know that this is exactly the sort of
situation we have with Valiant Galaxy Associates.  Our company
consists of two people.  We began with a large project that took 3
years to get to commercial release and which is due to have an update
relatively soon in our schedule.  Our next two games were much simpler
and rolled out quickly, but only because we could reuse and centralize
a lot of the code.  We're still in the process of making a centralized
platform so we can roll out more of the smaller games as well as work
on more ambitious games.

Our hope is to eventually have more games in play, let the smaller
ones carry the load while we develop long term bigger games.

I disagree with you about the RPG as being simple to convert Dark:

You can convert the mechanics relatively easily, but then you have to
have the mechanics integrate with a group of player actions and
possible results.  Essentially you write an Choose Your Own Adventure
novel on top of the mechanics, get it all to integrate, and then have
to still work out why it's not working over 60,000-250,000 words of
text and god only knows how much mechanical issues.  This doesn't take
into account sound scape or voice acting.

It's not undoable, and I think we should see more of those types of
games myself, but the question is how much complexity can you build
from a small production standpoint and still stay sane, productive,
and on top of customer service.  It's not like you release a game and
it's a never go back to proposition.  Further, if you want to keep the
costs reasonable, you have to make choices.  You can't release a
professionally produced sound scape, voice acting, music background,
story, proofreading, and fully tested and stable code and charge only
10 dollars for it.  A lot of the sorts of games that people cite when
they mention this genre are games that originally retaled for well
over $35 or 40 U.S. or, have monthly subscription charges that come to
the same thing.  While Marty's assessment that most blind people don't
like RPG's might be skewed, he is right that most blind people will
not pay for the kind of quality that most would like to demand.  Not
in my experience in any case.  That said, I know all the developers on
list attempt to put out as professional and interesting a game as they
can.  Remember too, that by moving his company to an IOS focus, Marty
is not breaking new ground in terms of style of game perhaps, but by
moving into the mobile app market he has broken ground for blind
people and audio games in terms of providing well received simple
games that are inexpensive.  That is a huge step from the any audio
game is either cheap and developed as a labor of love by one
programmer or $40 and developed to be profitable, or at least,
hopefully profitable.

As usual, my two cents.  I'll expect change from that please :)

Take care,

Jeremy




-- 
In the fight between you and the world--back the world! Frank Zapa

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