[Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi all, Weird title, I know, but I thought it fit the question I am going to ask. What if you are a creative person, with an excellent game idea that he or she believes may be a big hit in the audio community. It would most likely be profitable too, but that wouldn't be the main focus for making the game. In any event, you may have a little money to put into a project, not sure how much that would be, but you simply don't have the time to really learn how to program. So what do you do? Can you hire or comission someone to program a game for you based on your specific guidelines? Is anyone willing to do that, and how much money would it cost to make something like that happen? How would the ownership of the program belong to, and what would the financial sharing look like? I do remember someone having an issue with a programmer who took the work put into a project. Maybe it was Phil Vlasic with dark castle maybe. How does one go about avoiding that, that is to say, if it is feasible to accomplish such an arrangement? I'll be honest, i'm kind of fishing here, but I am also interested for just knowledge sake as well to see what everyone thinks. al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] How to non program a game
Allan asked how you would have someone program your game without problems regarding ownership and the like. The only way that really works is to have a contract with a game developer/programmer that spells out all the details of rights, payment and the like. There are programmers who are contractors and who would be capable of doing what you want. The contract would spell out the deliverables, the time-line, the ownership and the reimbursement. Depending on the size and specifications for the game, this can get expensive, but in this time when work is harder to come by than in really great economic times, you can probably find someone who could do it. You would need to get specifications pulled together to identify the qualifications needed to do the job so you find someone who is qualified to produce what you want. I'm sure other programmers on this list like Thomas, Philip and Jim can help to identify what skills you should be looking for to develop the game you are thinking about. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Al, saying "i have no idea about programming but a great idea for a game" is a bit like "I have no idea about engineering but a great idea for a car" you may have a fantastic idea for a car run on hydrogen fuel, but unless you've an idea of hydraulics, fuel convertion, how fuel relates to speed etc, you've got no chance of having a reasonable idea for a car. I too do not have the time to learn programming. Though I have game ideas, I do not share them or try to commition another person to make them, sinse they might be totally impossible. I simply store them up in my head until I may possibley at some point have the time to learn. Your much better considdering what is possible with current techniques, what ideas programmers have for games, and offering your informated in put on those ideas, as nded you are doing on this list and the entombed list, than cranking out wild ideas for games with nobody to make them. Oh btw, if one of the game creation engines such as Philip's scripting language or Tom's Genesis engine is completed, --- -there may be a very nice short cut to making games without knowing too much programming as well. That's certainly my hope, though I might considder seeing if I can learn programming when my phd is finished, assuming then of course I'm not busy with creative writing or other projects as is also likely. Beware the gRue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Allan Thompson" To: "gamers discussion list" Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 9:30 PM Subject: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Hi all, Weird title, I know, but I thought it fit the question I am going to ask. What if you are a creative person, with an excellent game idea that he or she believes may be a big hit in the audio community. It would most likely be profitable too, but that wouldn't be the main focus for making the game. In any event, you may have a little money to put into a project, not sure how much that would be, but you simply don't have the time to really learn how to program. So what do you do? Can you hire or comission someone to program a game for you based on your specific guidelines? Is anyone willing to do that, and how much money would it cost to make something like that happen? How would the ownership of the program belong to, and what would the financial sharing look like? I do remember someone having an issue with a programmer who took the work put into a project. Maybe it was Phil Vlasic with dark castle maybe. How does one go about avoiding that, that is to say, if it is feasible to accomplish such an arrangement? I'll be honest, i'm kind of fishing here, but I am also interested for just knowledge sake as well to see what everyone thinks. al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi Al, When you come up with a game idea, story line, etc then contract with a developer to create the game there are two copyrights involved with the production. First, as the person with the idea, game story, etc you retain the original copyright ownership of your ideas and original story. Second, the person or company that creates the game holds the multimedia copyright for the game since they were the person who actually created the multimedia. Both copyrights are separate but connected copyrights, and it is important to spell out who has what copyright ownership here. As I understand the law you retain the ownership of the game idea or ideas , but the company or person who actually creates the game retains the ownership of the game they created. The best legal way to go about this is to draft a legal document that states person x or company x has the right to create games or multimedia works based on your idea for a certain percentage of the income. Let's say for arguments sake you contract with USA Games to create game x. We may agree to give you 25% of the income of the game and keep the rest for production costs. So if the game makes $2000 we would pay you $500 for royalties, pay out say $500 for sounds and music, and keep the remaining $1000 as payment for labor costs. This way you still make some money on your original ideas, but the developers and sound production people get paid for their work. The only time I know of an accessible game developer trying this is when BSC Games contracted with another developer to create Castle Quest. Unfortunately, the lead developer of the project decided to quit production leaving Justin without a title to market and sell. Legally BSC Games still holds the original copyrights to the Castle Quest game idea, but the person they contracted with retained the rights to the game and source code. So when the lead developer quit production he took the game and source code with him. BSC could have contracted with someone else, but Justin decided it was not worth it to try it again with a new party. The only way to protect yourself from this happening is to sign a legal contract with the party that stipulates the terms of service to be rendered. That way the company or person involved is legally bound to complete the project in a timely manner. There, of course, has to be some terms in the contract in which either party can break the contract if necessary, but there usually are some fines or penalties involved with breech of contract. HTH --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Ok, I can live with that. Maybe it was a stupid question, but if I don't ask I'll never know. al - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Al, saying "i have no idea about programming but a great idea for a game" is a bit like "I have no idea about engineering but a great idea for a car" you may have a fantastic idea for a car run on hydrogen fuel, but unless you've an idea of hydraulics, fuel convertion, how fuel relates to speed etc, you've got no chance of having a reasonable idea for a car. I too do not have the time to learn programming. Though I have game ideas, I do not share them or try to commition another person to make them, sinse they might be totally impossible. I simply store them up in my head until I may possibley at some point have the time to learn. Your much better considdering what is possible with current techniques, what ideas programmers have for games, and offering your informated in put on those ideas, as nded you are doing on this list and the entombed list, than cranking out wild ideas for games with nobody to make them. Oh btw, if one of the game creation engines such as Philip's scripting language or Tom's Genesis engine is completed, --- -there may be a very nice short cut to making games without knowing too much programming as well. That's certainly my hope, though I might considder seeing if I can learn programming when my phd is finished, assuming then of course I'm not busy with creative writing or other projects as is also likely. Beware the gRue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Allan Thompson" To: "gamers discussion list" Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 9:30 PM Subject: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Hi all, Weird title, I know, but I thought it fit the question I am going to ask. What if you are a creative person, with an excellent game idea that he or she believes may be a big hit in the audio community. It would most likely be profitable too, but that wouldn't be the main focus for making the game. In any event, you may have a little money to put into a project, not sure how much that would be, but you simply don't have the time to really learn how to program. So what do you do? Can you hire or comission someone to program a game for you based on your specific guidelines? Is anyone willing to do that, and how much money would it cost to make something like that happen? How would the ownership of the program belong to, and what would the financial sharing look like? I do remember someone having an issue with a programmer who took the work put into a project. Maybe it was Phil Vlasic with dark castle maybe. How does one go about avoiding that, that is to say, if it is feasible to accomplish such an arrangement? I'll be honest, i'm kind of fishing here, but I am also interested for just knowledge sake as well to see what everyone thinks. al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi Dark, Ummm...Comparing game programming to building a car is a bit far fetched. Any developer would be able to tell Al where his ideas wouldn't be feasible or possible, and the two could work together to come up with a compromise for sure. Of course, a lot relies on the skill of the developer being asked to do the work. Obviously if Al wants a developer to create a side-scroller like Mysteries of the Ancients or an FPS game like Shades of Doom he would probably want to try developers he knows specializes in such types of games. He wouldn't want to contract with a developer who specializes in card, board, and puzzle games. From a programming standpoint both types of games require different skills to complete. dark wrote: Al, saying "i have no idea about programming but a great idea for a game" is a bit like "I have no idea about engineering but a great idea for a car" you may have a fantastic idea for a car run on hydrogen fuel, but unless you've an idea of hydraulics, fuel convertion, how fuel relates to speed etc, you've got no chance of having a reasonable idea for a car. I too do not have the time to learn programming. Though I have game ideas, I do not share them or try to commition another person to make them, sinse they might be totally impossible. I simply store them up in my head until I may possibley at some point have the time to learn. Your much better considdering what is possible with current techniques, what ideas programmers have for games, and offering your informated in put on those ideas, as nded you are doing on this list and the entombed list, than cranking out wild ideas for games with nobody to make them. Oh btw, if one of the game creation engines such as Philip's scripting language or Tom's Genesis engine is completed, --- -there may be a very nice short cut to making games without knowing too much programming as well. That's certainly my hope, though I might considder seeing if I can learn programming when my phd is finished, assuming then of course I'm not busy with creative writing or other projects as is also likely. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi Al, There is no need to feel that way. Your question was not stupid. There is no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to developing games. Dark was just over reacting I think. Allan Thompson wrote: Ok, I can live with that. Maybe it was a stupid question, but if I don't ask I'll never know. al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Also from a programming standpoint there are an endless number of ways to solve a problem, AKA programming, and everybody has their unique style and ideas of what can be done in practice. I would rather compare it with a profession like the law or maybe in some ways mathematicians. However there are just one way to build a basic engine, for example. There could be many ways to make it better, but only a limited number of ways of building it. Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Dark, Ummm...Comparing game programming to building a car is a bit far fetched. Any developer would be able to tell Al where his ideas wouldn't be feasible or possible, and the two could work together to come up with a compromise for sure. Of course, a lot relies on the skill of the developer being asked to do the work. Obviously if Al wants a developer to create a side-scroller like Mysteries of the Ancients or an FPS game like Shades of Doom he would probably want to try developers he knows specializes in such types of games. He wouldn't want to contract with a developer who specializes in card, board, and puzzle games. From a programming standpoint both types of games require different skills to complete. dark wrote: Al, saying "i have no idea about programming but a great idea for a game" is a bit like "I have no idea about engineering but a great idea for a car" you may have a fantastic idea for a car run on hydrogen fuel, but unless you've an idea of hydraulics, fuel convertion, how fuel relates to speed etc, you've got no chance of having a reasonable idea for a car. I too do not have the time to learn programming. Though I have game ideas, I do not share them or try to commition another person to make them, sinse they might be totally impossible. I simply store them up in my head until I may possibley at some point have the time to learn. Your much better considdering what is possible with current techniques, what ideas programmers have for games, and offering your informated in put on those ideas, as nded you are doing on this list and the entombed list, than cranking out wild ideas for games with nobody to make them. Oh btw, if one of the game creation engines such as Philip's scripting language or Tom's Genesis engine is completed, --- -there may be a very nice short cut to making games without knowing too much programming as well. That's certainly my hope, though I might considder seeing if I can learn programming when my phd is finished, assuming then of course I'm not busy with creative writing or other projects as is also likely. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Thanks Tom. I am sure Dark was telling me his honest opinion. I knew that failed game had castle in the name. That was a disappointment thru no fault of Justin and that is a situation I would be concerned with. I would want to see the project completed to the end. I always assumed that money would be handed over first for production expenses like music, sound effects, and voice acting, then the actual release of the game would be split according to contract...or is that what you said? Maybe I misunderstood. I thought 10% for the cretive element was the going rate, LOL. Man I was way off on that. Ok, so if I understand this right. Get a programmer/programming company. Get a contract, they make game, game gets sold, split earnings according to contract barring any problems between contract signing and completion. Does the creative idea guy or gal get any creative input into the project or does that have to be contractually listed as well? al rday, November 21, 2009 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Hi Al, There is no need to feel that way. Your question was not stupid. There is no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to developing games. Dark was just over reacting I think. Allan Thompson wrote: Ok, I can live with that. Maybe it was a stupid question, but if I don't ask I'll never know. al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi Al, All of the questions you asked are all subject to the terms of the contract. Weather or not you have to pay for things like sounds, music, up front or the developer will fit the cost of those is between you and the contractor. However, given the fact the contractor will need some sort of start up capital I'd say you would have to come up with some sort of payment in advance. Same goes for the actual percentage of how much you earn off of the game royalties. As far as how much input you get into creating the game I would assume you would have the final say if you are the one paying the developer to create the project out of pocket. Let's use this as an example. Let's say you came up with this really cool game idea called Star Warrior, and you had a general idea of the characters, enemies, hazards the hero would face, etc. Then, you approached USA Games to create it. You would begin with a written game proposal explaining to me what the game was about, a brief overview of the things you wanted in the game, and of course I would review it. If I liked the game proposal we could negotiate some sort of contract so that we could write, produce, and publish Star Warrior. After that we would work together to create a game outline. That is an authoritative document that covers the back story for the game, detailed information about all of the game characters, enemies, hazards, and a written description of the game level by level. Once we have agreed on the rough draft of the game outline USA Games could actually begin development of the game. Allan Thompson wrote: Thanks Tom. I am sure Dark was telling me his honest opinion. I knew that failed game had castle in the name. That was a disappointment thru no fault of Justin and that is a situation I would be concerned with. I would want to see the project completed to the end. I always assumed that money would be handed over first for production expenses like music, sound effects, and voice acting, then the actual release of the game would be split according to contract...or is that what you said? Maybe I misunderstood. I thought 10% for the cretive element was the going rate, LOL. Man I was way off on that. Ok, so if I understand this right. Get a programmer/programming company. Get a contract, they make game, game gets sold, split earnings according to contract barring any problems between contract signing and completion. Does the creative idea guy or gal get any creative input into the project or does that have to be contractually listed as well? al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
I thought it was an interesting question, and from your first response, it sounds like things could get messy when it comes to having someone else do your programming. --- Shepherds are the best beasts. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Hi Al, There is no need to feel that way. Your question was not stupid. There is no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to developing games. Dark was just over reacting I think. Allan Thompson wrote: > Ok, I can live with that. > Maybe it was a stupid question, but if I don't ask I'll never know. > > al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi Charles, Yes, things can get very messy in that situation. For that precise reason that's why most mainstream game companies refuse end user suggestions, story ideas, game ideas, etc. They know they have to sign a contract with them, and that could become a legal nightmare. Especially, if the game happens to be come very popular. Let's assume Joe Smith were to sign a contract with Sony Entertainment allowing them to use his ideas for Star Warrior for the grand sum of 10% of the total income. Well, it turns out Star Warrior is very popular and grosses 50 million dollars. Here is the guy with all the ideas and he gets only a meager 5 million for his idea when Sony walks away with the other 45 million. Suddenly he thinks he got shafted, got the short end of the stick, so now he sues Sony and wants a bigger chunk of the money. Say at least 20 million for his idea. Sony is going to tell him to jump in a lake because he got paid according to the contract, but he claims that the terms of the contract were unfair, that he was forced into accepting a lower percentage of the income, and so on. Now, he wants to renegotiate more favorable terms in the original contract. You can see how that could turn into a legal nightmare. The only people who get ritch in a case like that is the lawyers who will want their big chunk of the pie too. Charles Rivard wrote: I thought it was an interesting question, and from your first response, it sounds like things could get messy when it comes to having someone else do your programming. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Technically there's no such thing as a stupid suggestion, just ones which are or are not currently practical. You do highlight one very important thing, - how much level editers and game creation tools which would let people like me and thee with ideas but know practical skill create extra audio game content, everything from just a single level or track for an existing game like Railracer, - to a full scale new game. Che has the rail racer track editer, Tom is working on the genesis 3D engine, and philip on the game creation toolkit, so it's helpful for them to know. When these tools are complete, let your ideas run rampent, and put them into practice yourself! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
hi Tom. It's just this is something which comes up a lot from various people, including me. who have wild ideas about games and perhaps not enough forthought behind them as to whether they would be possible with current techniques, current sounds or whatever. that's why a good and working knolidge of at least what is possible is needed even before you start considdering contracts etc. Beware the gRue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 1:54 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Hi Dark, Ummm...Comparing game programming to building a car is a bit far fetched. Any developer would be able to tell Al where his ideas wouldn't be feasible or possible, and the two could work together to come up with a compromise for sure. Of course, a lot relies on the skill of the developer being asked to do the work. Obviously if Al wants a developer to create a side-scroller like Mysteries of the Ancients or an FPS game like Shades of Doom he would probably want to try developers he knows specializes in such types of games. He wouldn't want to contract with a developer who specializes in card, board, and puzzle games. From a programming standpoint both types of games require different skills to complete. dark wrote: Al, saying "i have no idea about programming but a great idea for a game" is a bit like "I have no idea about engineering but a great idea for a car" you may have a fantastic idea for a car run on hydrogen fuel, but unless you've an idea of hydraulics, fuel convertion, how fuel relates to speed etc, you've got no chance of having a reasonable idea for a car. I too do not have the time to learn programming. Though I have game ideas, I do not share them or try to commition another person to make them, sinse they might be totally impossible. I simply store them up in my head until I may possibley at some point have the time to learn. Your much better considdering what is possible with current techniques, what ideas programmers have for games, and offering your informated in put on those ideas, as nded you are doing on this list and the entombed list, than cranking out wild ideas for games with nobody to make them. Oh btw, if one of the game creation engines such as Philip's scripting language or Tom's Genesis engine is completed, --- -there may be a very nice short cut to making games without knowing too much programming as well. That's certainly my hope, though I might considder seeing if I can learn programming when my phd is finished, assuming then of course I'm not busy with creative writing or other projects as is also likely. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
It certainly wasn't my intention to be insulting or put people off, only to note that there's a difference betwene having ideas, and having practcial ideas, one I've myself crossed on many occasions. Ultimately though, Tom is right, it's afterall his job as the programmer to say what is or is not practical. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 1:57 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Hi Al, There is no need to feel that way. Your question was not stupid. There is no such thing as a stupid question when it comes to developing games. Dark was just over reacting I think. Allan Thompson wrote: Ok, I can live with that. Maybe it was a stupid question, but if I don't ask I'll never know. al --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Sometimes the idea behind the game isn't properly thought through. If an idea makes sense, it can most likely be programmed with more or less effort. It's true, some things aren't worth the effort to program, but it is a trade off between time, effort and what you want to do. dark wrote: hi Tom. It's just this is something which comes up a lot from various people, including me. who have wild ideas about games and perhaps not enough forthought behind them as to whether they would be possible with current techniques, current sounds or whatever. that's why a good and working knolidge of at least what is possible is needed even before you start considdering contracts etc. Beware the gRue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi Dar, This is very well put. However, I can't be expected to know the ins and outs of baking bread if I'm not a baker. Similarly, a nonprogrammer can't be expected to know how daunting a suggestion would be to program. Indeed, many things--even to programmers--look easy, but are time-consuming to program depending on how well the game was designed from the start. For instance, building a game to run off of extremely generic input and conditions is more work in the beginning, but adding stuff later on then becomes so easy it's amazing. As an example, I was able to add an autoplay mode to TDV a couple days ago with just a few lines of code. At the same time, some are difficult to code no matter how generic the game's running methods are. Even though it could be done with just one or two more lines of code, a programmer also has to consider performance impact, something we call "running time." In the end, the impact a new feature will ahve on running time may not make it worth to code. If someone suggests to me, "have the engine start in the off position when the game starts," to them it's probably just a matter of "tell the game the engine is off and tell the player to turn it on." Unfortunately, from a programming perspective, it's not as simple as startEngine();. Again though, the person who suggestd it can't be expected to know that, and that's where the programmer's job comes in as dismissing or implementing features. I've had a lot of suggestions that have made it in to TDV, but I will agree tat some people take it too far--so much so that you can write a book called "X's Suggestion: Why I Didn't Implement It." In the end though, whatever suggestion comes along is never a bad suggestion. I think everyone means well; in fact, I'd take it as a compliment that this person enjoys the game enough to offer up new features. Munawar A. Bijani "Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed." - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com - Original Message ----- From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Al, saying "i have no idea about programming but a great idea for a game" is a bit like "I have no idea about engineering but a great idea for a car" you may have a fantastic idea for a car run on hydrogen fuel, but unless you've an idea of hydraulics, fuel convertion, how fuel relates to speed etc, you've got no chance of having a reasonable idea for a car. I too do not have the time to learn programming. Though I have game ideas, I do not share them or try to commition another person to make them, sinse they might be totally impossible. I simply store them up in my head until I may possibley at some point have the time to learn. Your much better considdering what is possible with current techniques, what ideas programmers have for games, and offering your informated in put on those ideas, as nded you are doing on this list and the entombed list, than cranking out wild ideas for games with nobody to make them. Oh btw, if one of the game creation engines such as Philip's scripting language or Tom's Genesis engine is completed, --- -there may be a very nice short cut to making games without knowing too much programming as well. That's certainly my hope, though I might considder seeing if I can learn programming when my phd is finished, assuming then of course I'm not busy with creative writing or other projects as is also likely. Beware the gRue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi Al, I was recently offered 10 to 15 thousand dollars to program an accessible game. I have also been asked to join a company that produces and sells accessible games. Unfortunately I can not afford to make any money. And of course the gentleman that offered me the 10 to 15 thousand dollars did not mention anything about the game idea that he has. Don't suppose one would want to for fear that I would just take his idea and run with it. BFN Jim Share and enjoy, share and enjoy! j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi Munawar. This is exactly what I was getting at, it wasn't meant as a "don't make suggestions" more a "be careful what you suggest" I like to think that over a long time of playing various sorts of games and discussing them in detail, even though I've never porgrammed a game, I've gained a litle understanding of what is easy to implement and what is not. At the same time, I'd stil bow to the expertees of someone who had more practical experience than I have, and try to tailor my suggestions accordingly. that's why suggesting and play testing and implementing needs to be such a major dialogue. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi, "What if you are a creative person, with an excellent game idea that he or she believes ... In any event, you may have a little money to put into a project, ... but you simply don't have the time to really learn how to program. So what do you do? ..." Turning a game idea in to a game can be done, but the hours it takes to do it vary from programmer to programmer. There are programmers available for hire, but you'd have to be very specific on what you want. A hired programmer's job is to program, not to help draw out a plot or features list. That's where the challenge would be. You, as the man behind the project--the one with all the ideas, storylines, features, etc.--would be thinking differently than the programmer who programs these ideas into the game you want them to create. It could very well be that an idea you give them later on can't be done because of the way they programmed it, or it would cost you an unreasonable amount to code because the programmer would have to make unexpected changes. Another reason your money will drain quickly is because there are several stages to a software development lifecycle. Among these are design. The programmer will have to (if they're a smart and experienced programmer) draw out a basic outline of how the game will work, from the programming perspective. This way, if all goes well and they did it correctly, the game they build will be running on a very generic core, allowing them to add new features and move stuff around without breaking the mass of the code. All the while their hourly counter is ticking away, and your money is going. Developers can easily spend years of programming time, depending on how large-scale the game is. So yes, hired programmers exist, but it's not cheap labor. "How would the ownership of the program belong to, and what would the financial sharing look like?" Good question. People have different opinions on this one. If you hire a programmer to work for you, they'll be under a contract that will lay out everything ahead of time. Contracts are an excellent way to seal a deal. The drawback is, once you sign a contract, it's pretty much a closed matter, and you can't change it without serious legal repercussions--once again costing money. Developers use contracts all the time--not always for financial reasons, I might add. For instance, I've had to have some parents of minors sign an agreement for me because their child participated--no matter how minutely--in the development of TDV. Granted, the terms of the financial agreement are up to you and the programmer you are hiring. If done correctly, contracts will save a lot of headake in the long run since both of you know what you are proportioned. "I do remember someone having an issue with a programmer who took the work put into a project How does one go about avoiding that, that is to say, if it is feasible to accomplish such an arrangement?" It is possible. Remember though, humans will do anything at all to satisfy their needs. The more legal protection you have, the better. What I suggest you do if you ever go in to a contract is to have witnesses present. Ask your employee several times whether or not they accept the agreement, and get all of your witnesses to sign testifying that the person agreed fully. Present them with ridiculous amounts. For instance, you can say something like "suppose the game brought in $5. Is this agreement still acceptable?" That way, if indeed the game brings in $50,000 and they challenge you, you and your witnesses are there to testify against yor employee. "I'll be honest, i'm kind of fishing here, but I am also interested for just knowledge sake as well to see what everyone thinks." No problem, you have very legitimate questions, and not everyone is expected to be a programmer; otherwise programmers wouldn't be in such high demand as they are now. Munawar A. Bijani "Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed." - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi folks, I work with contractors all the time and as Eleanor says, it's absolutely vital to get the specification as thurrow and detailed as possible. I've found www.RentACoder.com to be very good, especially if the budget is tight. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: "Eleanor" To: Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:12 PM Subject: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Allan asked how you would have someone program your game without problems regarding ownership and the like. The only way that really works is to have a contract with a game developer/programmer that spells out all the details of rights, payment and the like. There are programmers who are contractors and who would be capable of doing what you want. The contract would spell out the deliverables, the time-line, the ownership and the reimbursement. Depending on the size and specifications for the game, this can get expensive, but in this time when work is harder to come by than in really great economic times, you can probably find someone who could do it. You would need to get specifications pulled together to identify the qualifications needed to do the job so you find someone who is qualified to produce what you want. I'm sure other programmers on this list like Thomas, Philip and Jim can help to identify what skills you should be looking for to develop the game you are thinking about. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Now that's a very good point. Jim Kitchen wrote: Hi Al, I was recently offered 10 to 15 thousand dollars to program an accessible game. I have also been asked to join a company that produces and sells accessible games. Unfortunately I can not afford to make any money. And of course the gentleman that offered me the 10 to 15 thousand dollars did not mention anything about the game idea that he has. Don't suppose one would want to for fear that I would just take his idea and run with it. BFN Jim Share and enjoy, share and enjoy! j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Thanks for that information. It is good to know. smile. al - Original Message - From: "Philip Bennefall" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Hi folks, I work with contractors all the time and as Eleanor says, it's absolutely vital to get the specification as thurrow and detailed as possible. I've found www.RentACoder.com to be very good, especially if the budget is tight. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: "Eleanor" To: Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 4:12 PM Subject: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Allan asked how you would have someone program your game without problems regarding ownership and the like. The only way that really works is to have a contract with a game developer/programmer that spells out all the details of rights, payment and the like. There are programmers who are contractors and who would be capable of doing what you want. The contract would spell out the deliverables, the time-line, the ownership and the reimbursement. Depending on the size and specifications for the game, this can get expensive, but in this time when work is harder to come by than in really great economic times, you can probably find someone who could do it. You would need to get specifications pulled together to identify the qualifications needed to do the job so you find someone who is qualified to produce what you want. I'm sure other programmers on this list like Thomas, Philip and Jim can help to identify what skills you should be looking for to develop the game you are thinking about. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.76/2518 - Release Date: 11/21/09 19:41:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
This seems to be the growing consensus. It is good to know this for future reference. grin. thanks al - Original Message - From: "Eleanor" To: Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:12 AM Subject: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Allan asked how you would have someone program your game without problems regarding ownership and the like. The only way that really works is to have a contract with a game developer/programmer that spells out all the details of rights, payment and the like. There are programmers who are contractors and who would be capable of doing what you want. The contract would spell out the deliverables, the time-line, the ownership and the reimbursement. Depending on the size and specifications for the game, this can get expensive, but in this time when work is harder to come by than in really great economic times, you can probably find someone who could do it. You would need to get specifications pulled together to identify the qualifications needed to do the job so you find someone who is qualified to produce what you want. I'm sure other programmers on this list like Thomas, Philip and Jim can help to identify what skills you should be looking for to develop the game you are thinking about. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Great post, thanks. al - Original Message - From: "Munawar Bijani" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Hi, "What if you are a creative person, with an excellent game idea that he or she believes ... In any event, you may have a little money to put into a project, ... but you simply don't have the time to really learn how to program. So what do you do? ..." Turning a game idea in to a game can be done, but the hours it takes to do it vary from programmer to programmer. There are programmers available for hire, but you'd have to be very specific on what you want. A hired programmer's job is to program, not to help draw out a plot or features list. That's where the challenge would be. You, as the man behind the project--the one with all the ideas, storylines, features, etc.--would be thinking differently than the programmer who programs these ideas into the game you want them to create. It could very well be that an idea you give them later on can't be done because of the way they programmed it, or it would cost you an unreasonable amount to code because the programmer would have to make unexpected changes. Another reason your money will drain quickly is because there are several stages to a software development lifecycle. Among these are design. The programmer will have to (if they're a smart and experienced programmer) draw out a basic outline of how the game will work, from the programming perspective. This way, if all goes well and they did it correctly, the game they build will be running on a very generic core, allowing them to add new features and move stuff around without breaking the mass of the code. All the while their hourly counter is ticking away, and your money is going. Developers can easily spend years of programming time, depending on how large-scale the game is. So yes, hired programmers exist, but it's not cheap labor. "How would the ownership of the program belong to, and what would the financial sharing look like?" Good question. People have different opinions on this one. If you hire a programmer to work for you, they'll be under a contract that will lay out everything ahead of time. Contracts are an excellent way to seal a deal. The drawback is, once you sign a contract, it's pretty much a closed matter, and you can't change it without serious legal repercussions--once again costing money. Developers use contracts all the time--not always for financial reasons, I might add. For instance, I've had to have some parents of minors sign an agreement for me because their child participated--no matter how minutely--in the development of TDV. Granted, the terms of the financial agreement are up to you and the programmer you are hiring. If done correctly, contracts will save a lot of headake in the long run since both of you know what you are proportioned. "I do remember someone having an issue with a programmer who took the work put into a project How does one go about avoiding that, that is to say, if it is feasible to accomplish such an arrangement?" It is possible. Remember though, humans will do anything at all to satisfy their needs. The more legal protection you have, the better. What I suggest you do if you ever go in to a contract is to have witnesses present. Ask your employee several times whether or not they accept the agreement, and get all of your witnesses to sign testifying that the person agreed fully. Present them with ridiculous amounts. For instance, you can say something like "suppose the game brought in $5. Is this agreement still acceptable?" That way, if indeed the game brings in $50,000 and they challenge you, you and your witnesses are there to testify against yor employee. "I'll be honest, i'm kind of fishing here, but I am also interested for just knowledge sake as well to see what everyone thinks." No problem, you have very legitimate questions, and not everyone is expected to be a programmer; otherwise programmers wouldn't be in such high demand as they are now. Munawar A. Bijani "Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed." - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@au
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi Jim, Yikes, ten thousand dollars up front is a bit much out of anything I could bring to the table, but I understand precisely what you mean when you say you can't afford to make money. It is funny, but also kind of frustrating. To be honest, money isn't really an issue with me. If I knew that someone would commit themselves to getting the job done from beginning to end, they can have all the profits, as long as I had "reasonable" creative control. Meaning that the story and structure of plot, characters, etc and so forth I would like the final say on but if something was too hard or too off base, I can switch gears to fit the new parameters. I am thinking of just writing up the ideas into a form for people to read, maybe submit it to the list or to the magazine and let it go. Thanks for writing, al - Original Message - From: "Jim Kitchen" To: "Allan Thompson" Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 7:53 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Hi Al, I was recently offered 10 to 15 thousand dollars to program an accessible game. I have also been asked to join a company that produces and sells accessible games. Unfortunately I can not afford to make any money. And of course the gentleman that offered me the 10 to 15 thousand dollars did not mention anything about the game idea that he has. Don't suppose one would want to for fear that I would just take his idea and run with it. BFN Jim Share and enjoy, share and enjoy! j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Some good points that I never thought of, Tom. Geez, what a mess that can be. al - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Charles Rivard" ; "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 11:32 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Hi Charles, Yes, things can get very messy in that situation. For that precise reason that's why most mainstream game companies refuse end user suggestions, story ideas, game ideas, etc. They know they have to sign a contract with them, and that could become a legal nightmare. Especially, if the game happens to be come very popular. Let's assume Joe Smith were to sign a contract with Sony Entertainment allowing them to use his ideas for Star Warrior for the grand sum of 10% of the total income. Well, it turns out Star Warrior is very popular and grosses 50 million dollars. Here is the guy with all the ideas and he gets only a meager 5 million for his idea when Sony walks away with the other 45 million. Suddenly he thinks he got shafted, got the short end of the stick, so now he sues Sony and wants a bigger chunk of the money. Say at least 20 million for his idea. Sony is going to tell him to jump in a lake because he got paid according to the contract, but he claims that the terms of the contract were unfair, that he was forced into accepting a lower percentage of the income, and so on. Now, he wants to renegotiate more favorable terms in the original contract. You can see how that could turn into a legal nightmare. The only people who get ritch in a case like that is the lawyers who will want their big chunk of the pie too. Charles Rivard wrote: I thought it was an interesting question, and from your first response, it sounds like things could get messy when it comes to having someone else do your programming. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit restrictions like damien does? In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, ofcause if we are earning a million bucs then maybe that would go away but hmph. At 01:53 a.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote: >Hi Al, > >I was recently offered 10 to 15 thousand dollars to program an accessible >game. I have also been asked to join a company that produces and sells >accessible games. Unfortunately I can not afford to make any money. And of >course the gentleman that offered me the 10 to 15 thousand dollars did not >mention anything about the game idea that he has. Don't suppose one would >want to for fear that I would just take his idea and run with it. > >BFN > >Jim > >Share and enjoy, share and enjoy! > >j...@kitchensinc.net >http://www.kitchensinc.net >(440) 286-6920 >Chardon Ohio USA >--- >Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. >If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, >please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi Shaun, Yes, there are benifit restrictions. It depends on if the person is on SSI or SSDI. In either case there are some restrictions involved. I can't quite remember the exact amounts, but if I'm correct here is how it works for those people on SSI. You can make up to $80 per month without it effecting your SSI benifits. After that you lose a dollar for every two dollars you earn, or something like that. After a certain point Social security cuts the person off at the knees as he/she is making too much to qualify for the program. Plus he or she must turn in their income to the IRS for tax purposes, and the IRS takes their cut of what you made. Failing to inform Social Security and the IRS of your earnings can actually cause the person involved owing both the IRS and Social Security Administration money. Not to say the least the person can do some serious jail time. So making money especially, unreported money, while on SSI can be a serious problem. I'm going to assume here Jim is on SSI or SSDI. Either way for him to take money under that kind of arrangement is very problematic. SSDI is more flexable, but there are still restrictions involved there too. shaun everiss wrote: what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit restrictions like damien does? In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, ofcause if we are earning a million bucs then maybe that would go away but hmph. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
This is sounding worryingly familiar Tom. the Uk bennifit laws work very much the same way, with the nastier restriction that you actually can only have £6000 in savings or lose the lot, a penny over and everything goes west. pluss, once your off disability bennifit, your off! On the occasions that relatives have left me money or I've been able to save extra, I actually have to funnel it into an account my parents hold, sinse otherwise I'd actually be seriously struggling to ahve enough money even to buy food, let alone pay my tuition fees. You also under Uk law cannot legally work more than 16 hours a month and keep disability bennifits, and you can only work that 16 hours for a six month period as on the job training. For this reason my brother is stil! working voluntarily for a law firm trying to get his salicitor's training contract, because he legally cannot earn the money without losing his bennifits, and he couldn't make more than what his bennifits are giving him currently without working full time, which he cannot do. And that's aside from the £18000 student lone he stil owes the government for his five years at university geting a law degree and legal practice course, which is going up by an extra £1000 a year! Needless to say, this is also a practical question of disability, which the deffinition in my thesis is going to address. Appologies for the slightly off topic wrant, --- just put it down to inthusiasm about my research! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
aah I understand we had this issue and had to fight for it but we get exempt on the grounds that if something happens or if we need extra stuff we can or something to that effect. Interestingly enough people in the us and uk seem to have a few more issues than here. we seem to have got over most of our stereotypes and things which shouldn't bee, I mean we are a small country so exactly why small places get this quicker when we have less people is beyond me. At 04:24 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote: >Hi Shaun, >Yes, there are benifit restrictions. It depends on if the person is on SSI or >SSDI. In either case there are some restrictions involved. >I can't quite remember the exact amounts, but if I'm correct here is how it >works for those people on SSI. You can make up to $80 per month without it >effecting your SSI benifits. After that you lose a dollar for every two >dollars you earn, or something like that. After a certain point Social >security cuts the person off at the knees as he/she is making too much to >qualify for the program. Plus he or she must turn in their income to the IRS >for tax purposes, and the IRS takes their cut of what you made. Failing to >inform Social Security and the IRS of your earnings can actually cause the >person involved owing both the IRS and Social Security Administration money. >Not to say the least the person can do some serious jail time. So making money >especially, unreported money, while on SSI can be a serious problem. >I'm going to assume here Jim is on SSI or SSDI. Either way for him to take >money under that kind of arrangement is very problematic. SSDI is more >flexable, but there are still restrictions involved there too. > >shaun everiss wrote: >>what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit restrictions like >>damien does? >>In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, ofcause if we >>are earning a million bucs then maybe that would go away but hmph. >> > > >--- >Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. >If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, >please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Maybe it would be worth me looking into the law in newzealand for my thesis, sinse it does seem a better model on this point. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "shaun everiss" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:45 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game aah I understand we had this issue and had to fight for it but we get exempt on the grounds that if something happens or if we need extra stuff we can or something to that effect. Interestingly enough people in the us and uk seem to have a few more issues than here. we seem to have got over most of our stereotypes and things which shouldn't bee, I mean we are a small country so exactly why small places get this quicker when we have less people is beyond me. At 04:24 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Yes, there are benifit restrictions. It depends on if the person is on SSI or SSDI. In either case there are some restrictions involved. I can't quite remember the exact amounts, but if I'm correct here is how it works for those people on SSI. You can make up to $80 per month without it effecting your SSI benifits. After that you lose a dollar for every two dollars you earn, or something like that. After a certain point Social security cuts the person off at the knees as he/she is making too much to qualify for the program. Plus he or she must turn in their income to the IRS for tax purposes, and the IRS takes their cut of what you made. Failing to inform Social Security and the IRS of your earnings can actually cause the person involved owing both the IRS and Social Security Administration money. Not to say the least the person can do some serious jail time. So making money especially, unreported money, while on SSI can be a serious problem. I'm going to assume here Jim is on SSI or SSDI. Either way for him to take money under that kind of arrangement is very problematic. SSDI is more flexable, but there are still restrictions involved there too. shaun everiss wrote: what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit restrictions like damien does? In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, ofcause if we are earning a million bucs then maybe that would go away but hmph. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
well on that note I have a couple accounts one is for investments and every so often I keep shoveling cash betwene the 2 accounts. so I don't get too much in either. Ofcause I don't usually have much cash as I contribute to board at home food power the net and other things as well as family stuff. My money gets mixed in with the family cash so no one loses out and its not like I am idol. this does mean on ocations I do have a bit of a large overdraft from 20 cents to a few hundred bucks in my account, but this goes away with the next payment or the next transfer. I don't look at my accounts as much as I should, but I know that is what happens as I have been told that is what happens. There is no restriction per say but lets just say we don't take things for granted here. At 04:37 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote: >This is sounding worryingly familiar Tom. the Uk bennifit laws work very much >the same way, with the nastier restriction that you actually can only >have £6000 in savings or lose the lot, a penny over and everything goes >west. > >pluss, once your off disability bennifit, your off! > >On the occasions that relatives have left me money or I've been able to save >extra, I actually have to funnel it into an account my parents hold, sinse >otherwise I'd actually be seriously struggling to ahve enough money even to >buy food, let alone pay my tuition fees. > >You also under Uk law cannot legally work more than 16 hours a month and keep >disability bennifits, and you can only work that 16 hours for a six month >period as on the job training. > >For this reason my brother is stil! working voluntarily for a law firm trying >to get his salicitor's training contract, because he legally cannot earn >the money without losing his bennifits, and he couldn't make more than >what his bennifits are giving him currently without working full time, >which he cannot do. > >And that's aside from the £18000 student lone he stil owes the government for >his five years at university geting a law degree and legal practice course, > which is going up by an extra £1000 a year! > >Needless to say, this is also a practical question of disability, which the >deffinition in my thesis is going to address. > >Appologies for the slightly off topic wrant, --- just put it down to >inthusiasm about my research! > >Beware the grue! > >Dark. > >--- >Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. >If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, >please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
hmmm. i have not touched this but we have laws that make us exempt from jury duty for instance and other things. Its sertainly a fearer system. Supprising than the us or uk, I think that its ok if your spouse is blind and you have blind childrent o though I only had one cast but it seems that we have a semi fearer system as supposed to others. on that note we are going way off topic, dark if you want to take anything up with me then I think we better go off list. At 04:46 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote: >Maybe it would be worth me looking into the law in newzealand for my thesis, >sinse it does seem a better model on this point. > >Beware the Grue! > >Dark. >- Original Message - From: "shaun everiss" >To: "Gamers Discussion list" >Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:45 AM >Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game > > >>aah I understand >>we had this issue and had to fight for it but we get exempt on the grounds >>that if something happens or if we need extra stuff we can or something to >>that effect. >>Interestingly enough people in the us and uk seem to have a few more issues >>than here. >>we seem to have got over most of our stereotypes and things which shouldn't >>bee, I mean we are a small country so exactly why small places get this >>quicker when we have less people is beyond me. >>At 04:24 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote: >>>Hi Shaun, >>>Yes, there are benifit restrictions. It depends on if the person is on SSI >>>or SSDI. In either case there are some restrictions involved. >>>I can't quite remember the exact amounts, but if I'm correct here is how it >>>works for those people on SSI. You can make up to $80 per month without it >>>effecting your SSI benifits. After that you lose a dollar for every two >>>dollars you earn, or something like that. After a certain point Social >>>security cuts the person off at the knees as he/she is making too much to >>>qualify for the program. Plus he or she must turn in their income to the IRS >>>for tax purposes, and the IRS takes their cut of what you made. Failing to >>>inform Social Security and the IRS of your earnings can actually cause the >>>person involved owing both the IRS and Social Security Administration money. >>>Not to say the least the person can do some serious jail time. So making >>>money especially, unreported money, while on SSI can be a serious problem. >>>I'm going to assume here Jim is on SSI or SSDI. Either way for him to take >>>money under that kind of arrangement is very problematic. SSDI is more >>>flexable, but there are still restrictions involved there too. >>> >>>shaun everiss wrote: >>>>what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit restrictions like >>>>damien does? >>>>In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, ofcause if we >>>>are earning a million bucs then maybe that would go away but hmph. >>> >>> >>>--- >>>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >>>If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >>>gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >>>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >>>http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >>>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. >>>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, >>>please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. >> >> >> >>--- >>Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >>If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >>You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >>http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >>All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >>http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. >>If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, >>please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > > >--- >Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. >If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, >please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
I'll considder that sean, right now I'm at the heavily deffinitiojnal end of my thesis, --- trying to establish all the ground work for the sort of principles I'm trying for. Blind people are also exempt from jury duty here too, it's just the inability to save, and the laws concerning bennifits which are such a nightmare as I've outlined. Either way, sinse this is Ot I'll stop. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "shaun everiss" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:51 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game hmmm. i have not touched this but we have laws that make us exempt from jury duty for instance and other things. Its sertainly a fearer system. Supprising than the us or uk, I think that its ok if your spouse is blind and you have blind childrent o though I only had one cast but it seems that we have a semi fearer system as supposed to others. on that note we are going way off topic, dark if you want to take anything up with me then I think we better go off list. At 04:46 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote: Maybe it would be worth me looking into the law in newzealand for my thesis, sinse it does seem a better model on this point. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "shaun everiss" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:45 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game aah I understand we had this issue and had to fight for it but we get exempt on the grounds that if something happens or if we need extra stuff we can or something to that effect. Interestingly enough people in the us and uk seem to have a few more issues than here. we seem to have got over most of our stereotypes and things which shouldn't bee, I mean we are a small country so exactly why small places get this quicker when we have less people is beyond me. At 04:24 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Yes, there are benifit restrictions. It depends on if the person is on SSI or SSDI. In either case there are some restrictions involved. I can't quite remember the exact amounts, but if I'm correct here is how it works for those people on SSI. You can make up to $80 per month without it effecting your SSI benifits. After that you lose a dollar for every two dollars you earn, or something like that. After a certain point Social security cuts the person off at the knees as he/she is making too much to qualify for the program. Plus he or she must turn in their income to the IRS for tax purposes, and the IRS takes their cut of what you made. Failing to inform Social Security and the IRS of your earnings can actually cause the person involved owing both the IRS and Social Security Administration money. Not to say the least the person can do some serious jail time. So making money especially, unreported money, while on SSI can be a serious problem. I'm going to assume here Jim is on SSI or SSDI. Either way for him to take money under that kind of arrangement is very problematic. SSDI is more flexable, but there are still restrictions involved there too. shaun everiss wrote: what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit restrictions like damien does? In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, ofcause if we are earning a million bucs then maybe that would go away but hmph. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.or
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hello, In the US, the total amount of money you can have is $2000 if you are single and $3000 if you are a married couple who are both on SSI or SSDI. As for working, theyre are ways to get around the restrictions in order to earn some money, but it is complicated, and if you screw the calculations up, the government comes down quite hard on you. Basically, if you receive SSDI, you can earn up to $700 per month without penalty. Above that and you need to be very careful about including your blind-related work expenses, and you must be very good about keeping the proofs of everything you claim. SSD will allow you to earn nice amounts of money for up to nine months on the trial back to work program, and then you can receive another three months if you follow the paperwork properly. After 12 months, the SSD, and all related Medicare and MedicAid are removed. Finally, after the year of benefits while earning other money has completed, you cannot do it again for 72 months because, if you do, there is a good chance that it could take up to two years to reestablish your benefits when you stop working. David Chittenden, MS, CRC, MRCAA dark wrote: This is sounding worryingly familiar Tom. the Uk bennifit laws work very much the same way, with the nastier restriction that you actually can only have £6000 in savings or lose the lot, a penny over and everything goes west. pluss, once your off disability bennifit, your off! On the occasions that relatives have left me money or I've been able to save extra, I actually have to funnel it into an account my parents hold, sinse otherwise I'd actually be seriously struggling to ahve enough money even to buy food, let alone pay my tuition fees. You also under Uk law cannot legally work more than 16 hours a month and keep disability bennifits, and you can only work that 16 hours for a six month period as on the job training. For this reason my brother is stil! working voluntarily for a law firm trying to get his salicitor's training contract, because he legally cannot earn the money without losing his bennifits, and he couldn't make more than what his bennifits are giving him currently without working full time, which he cannot do. And that's aside from the £18000 student lone he stil owes the government for his five years at university geting a law degree and legal practice course, which is going up by an extra £1000 a year! Needless to say, this is also a practical question of disability, which the deffinition in my thesis is going to address. Appologies for the slightly off topic wrant, --- just put it down to inthusiasm about my research! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hello, That depends on what your thesis is. If it is about countries providing benefits for those who are blind, NZ and AU appear to have some of the better financial support systems set up. I am surprised to hear that the set-up in the UK is not so good. I thought it was similar to that of NZ and AU. If your thesis is about overall societal supports for the blind, this gets a little more complicated. I moved out to NZ eight months ago. Since I have arrived here, and I am living in Christchurch, I have only found one lift with braille or tactile markings on it, and the same with toilet doors. Don't even get me started about the buses. I have been purposefully passed by by buses when the driver realized I was the only person at the stop and noticed my guide dog, and I regularly have drivers forget about my requested stop; in one case causing me to miss an important business meeting because it took an hour to get back to the location. Note: this usually occurs at least three times per week. I have also had the transit authority tell me that I need to understand that when the bus is full, it is completely understandable if the driver forgets about my stop, so the driver will not be repremanded in any way. Every place has its positives and its negatives regarding how its blind residents are treated. David Chittenden, MS, CRC, MRCAA dark wrote: Maybe it would be worth me looking into the law in newzealand for my thesis, sinse it does seem a better model on this point. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "shaun everiss" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 3:45 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game aah I understand we had this issue and had to fight for it but we get exempt on the grounds that if something happens or if we need extra stuff we can or something to that effect. Interestingly enough people in the us and uk seem to have a few more issues than here. we seem to have got over most of our stereotypes and things which shouldn't bee, I mean we are a small country so exactly why small places get this quicker when we have less people is beyond me. At 04:24 p.m. 23/11/2009, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Yes, there are benifit restrictions. It depends on if the person is on SSI or SSDI. In either case there are some restrictions involved. I can't quite remember the exact amounts, but if I'm correct here is how it works for those people on SSI. You can make up to $80 per month without it effecting your SSI benifits. After that you lose a dollar for every two dollars you earn, or something like that. After a certain point Social security cuts the person off at the knees as he/she is making too much to qualify for the program. Plus he or she must turn in their income to the IRS for tax purposes, and the IRS takes their cut of what you made. Failing to inform Social Security and the IRS of your earnings can actually cause the person involved owing both the IRS and Social Security Administration money. Not to say the least the person can do some serious jail time. So making money especially, unreported money, while on SSI can be a serious problem. I'm going to assume here Jim is on SSI or SSDI. Either way for him to take money under that kind of arrangement is very problematic. SSDI is more flexable, but there are still restrictions involved there too. shaun everiss wrote: what, why not afford to make ny cash do you have benifit restrictions like damien does? In new zealand to some extent we are exempt from said things, ofcause if we are earning a million bucs then maybe that would go away but hmph. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searche
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Again, sounding worryingly familiar indeed, though at least in the Us you can get the bennifit back at some point, in the Uk you absolutely can't which is why Damien had to suddenly stop developing commercial games. a most irritating system. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "David Chittenden" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Hello, In the US, the total amount of money you can have is $2000 if you are single and $3000 if you are a married couple who are both on SSI or SSDI. As for working, theyre are ways to get around the restrictions in order to earn some money, but it is complicated, and if you screw the calculations up, the government comes down quite hard on you. Basically, if you receive SSDI, you can earn up to $700 per month without penalty. Above that and you need to be very careful about including your blind-related work expenses, and you must be very good about keeping the proofs of everything you claim. SSD will allow you to earn nice amounts of money for up to nine months on the trial back to work program, and then you can receive another three months if you follow the paperwork properly. After 12 months, the SSD, and all related Medicare and MedicAid are removed. Finally, after the year of benefits while earning other money has completed, you cannot do it again for 72 months because, if you do, there is a good chance that it could take up to two years to reestablish your benefits when you stop working. David Chittenden, MS, CRC, MRCAA dark wrote: This is sounding worryingly familiar Tom. the Uk bennifit laws work very much the same way, with the nastier restriction that you actually can only have £6000 in savings or lose the lot, a penny over and everything goes west. pluss, once your off disability bennifit, your off! On the occasions that relatives have left me money or I've been able to save extra, I actually have to funnel it into an account my parents hold, sinse otherwise I'd actually be seriously struggling to ahve enough money even to buy food, let alone pay my tuition fees. You also under Uk law cannot legally work more than 16 hours a month and keep disability bennifits, and you can only work that 16 hours for a six month period as on the job training. For this reason my brother is stil! working voluntarily for a law firm trying to get his salicitor's training contract, because he legally cannot earn the money without losing his bennifits, and he couldn't make more than what his bennifits are giving him currently without working full time, which he cannot do. And that's aside from the £18000 student lone he stil owes the government for his five years at university geting a law degree and legal practice course, which is going up by an extra £1000 a year! Needless to say, this is also a practical question of disability, which the deffinition in my thesis is going to address. Appologies for the slightly off topic wrant, --- just put it down to inthusiasm about my research! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
My thesis is basically ethical in nature. In the first part I'm trying to establish a reasonable deffinition of disability based upon factors such as desire, consciousness, effort and quality of life. In the second part i'll then apply this deffinition to a number of problems. I have for instance already got a workable deffinition of when a thing is, or is not accessible. that's why this sort of thing is related, sinse though I am not working in a legal field, most government legislation, as well as even more basic social deffinitions is based on a rather shoody system of defigning disability, which doesn't seem to work. also, in terms of the academic literature, medical professionals simply state that condition X is a disability, without saying overall what a disability is. Then in the 1970's, a raging mob of sociologists decided that the entire "disability" deffinition was just another form of discrimination like racism or sexism, - and railed loudly about it ever sinse. that's why I'd like to take a step back, and start with first principles with "The word disability means" and go on from there, hopefully ending with something useful. That's the plan anyway. On the international front, i've actually noticed that atitudes of individual people as well as countries can vary widely. By and large it seems people in American, norway, Germany, Holland and several other places are more relaxed on the disability issue, despite legal hang ups, and will both provide some sort of assistance, ie, tactile lift buttons, and not treat someone like a marssian simply because their carrying a white stick or in a wheel chair. Sadly other countries, Britain included, are not so great. I do not actually use busses at all for the reason you described, in fact in this country, trying to get a driver to notify you of a stop is an absolute impossibility! I've also had innumerable instances where people behave in an absolutely idiotic manner, usually arousing my sarcasm. One amusing instance, i was walking down a six foot wide pavement, six feet from a lady. She decided for reasons best known to herself to bellow in an incredibly loud voice for the hole street to here "mind! the Blind! man!" Not to be outdone, I turned round and bellowed equally loudly "yes! mind the man who is not deaf!" Sadly this isn't an isolated incident. if I go to a general event of any nature, I can be certain nobody will even acknolidge my existance for the first three hours, much less see me as a human being worth talking to. On one occasion, I was in a performance with an american director, who was aqbsolutely and completely shocked by this behaviour! When I visited norway however, not only was everyone quite prepared to be reasonable, --- but the social reactions were truly bizarre! Standing at the side of the road with my cane, the traphic would very literally and abruptly stop! as though it'd reached a red light, I've never seen that in any country sinse. Then of course there are the legal issues. In america for instance, --- -isn't it the law that the first few seats of every train cariage be left for disabled passengers? I'll stop before this turns into a wrant (ooopse! too late), but hopefully this illustrates why I'm working on a theory of disability, and what sort of things I'd like it to highlight. Do I think it will change the world? heck no! but having it out there and having people rethink the debate certainly can't hurt. pluss of course, I get my Phd out of it grin! We'd better get back to games now. Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi Shaun, I am on allot of assistance programs and they are all income based or restricted. I am on Social security disability income (SSDI) Government subsidized housing (HUD) Medicare, Medicaid, wellfair, food stamps and Ohio Care Star / Waver. I have medical bills etc that those programs help with. And there is the thing about if I earn enough I could make it into a tax bracket or get kicked off of some of the assistance programs. And I would definitely not try not reporting income. I would be the one that would get caught. BFN Jim The hardest thing in the world to understand is income tax. Albert Einstein j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Hi Al, Yeah, pretty sad when the system makes it hard to try to work out of it or better yourself at all. But that is one of the reasons that I have never charged for any of my games. And now I have just been doing what I want with the games for so long, I'm not sure how well I would do with working for someone. BFN Jim But, boss, this IS part of my job! j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
Well, while this might be OT, I live here in South Africa, and it's nothing like any of these other countries...LOL! In order to get a bit of pittance from government, you literally need to earn almost nothing, and while we don't have things like jury duty, we don't really have public transport that's really too usable as such etc. etc. OTOH, disabled people count as what we call affirmative action, so you might get employed just to be there/on the payroll, but, no thank you! Stay well Jacob Kruger Blind Biker Skype: BlindZA '...fate had broken his body, but not his spirit...' - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Again, sounding worryingly familiar indeed, though at least in the Us you can get the bennifit back at some point, in the Uk you absolutely can't which is why Damien had to suddenly stop developing commercial games. a most irritating system. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: "David Chittenden" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 7:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game Hello, In the US, the total amount of money you can have is $2000 if you are single and $3000 if you are a married couple who are both on SSI or SSDI. As for working, theyre are ways to get around the restrictions in order to earn some money, but it is complicated, and if you screw the calculations up, the government comes down quite hard on you. Basically, if you receive SSDI, you can earn up to $700 per month without penalty. Above that and you need to be very careful about including your blind-related work expenses, and you must be very good about keeping the proofs of everything you claim. SSD will allow you to earn nice amounts of money for up to nine months on the trial back to work program, and then you can receive another three months if you follow the paperwork properly. After 12 months, the SSD, and all related Medicare and MedicAid are removed. Finally, after the year of benefits while earning other money has completed, you cannot do it again for 72 months because, if you do, there is a good chance that it could take up to two years to reestablish your benefits when you stop working. David Chittenden, MS, CRC, MRCAA dark wrote: This is sounding worryingly familiar Tom. the Uk bennifit laws work very much the same way, with the nastier restriction that you actually can only have £6000 in savings or lose the lot, a penny over and everything goes west. pluss, once your off disability bennifit, your off! On the occasions that relatives have left me money or I've been able to save extra, I actually have to funnel it into an account my parents hold, sinse otherwise I'd actually be seriously struggling to ahve enough money even to buy food, let alone pay my tuition fees. You also under Uk law cannot legally work more than 16 hours a month and keep disability bennifits, and you can only work that 16 hours for a six month period as on the job training. For this reason my brother is stil! working voluntarily for a law firm trying to get his salicitor's training contract, because he legally cannot earn the money without losing his bennifits, and he couldn't make more than what his bennifits are giving him currently without working full time, which he cannot do. And that's aside from the £18000 student lone he stil owes the government for his five years at university geting a law degree and legal practice course, which is going up by an extra £1000 a year! Needless to say, this is also a practical question of disability, which the deffinition in my thesis is going to address. Appologies for the slightly off topic wrant, --- just put it down to inthusiasm about my research! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@
Re: [Audyssey] How to non program a game
hmmm now you mention it we have a threshold I think of 25k may be less. Ofcause if you shove say 9k 10 k or so in your main account then you are probably asking for it. Hmph being blind is a bit of a 2 edged sword. in one way you are encouraged to work but in another you try to make some serious cash and you start losing stuff. Ofcause if you make it then so be it but yeah. At 12:03 a.m. 24/11/2009, you wrote: >Hi Shaun, > >I am on allot of assistance programs and they are all income based or >restricted. I am on Social security disability income (SSDI) Government >subsidized housing (HUD) Medicare, Medicaid, wellfair, food stamps and Ohio >Care Star / Waver. I have medical bills etc that those programs help with. >And there is the thing about if I earn enough I could make it into a tax >bracket or get kicked off of some of the assistance programs. And I would >definitely not try not reporting income. I would be the one that would get >caught. > >BFN > >Jim > >The hardest thing in the world to understand is income tax. Albert Einstein > >j...@kitchensinc.net >http://www.kitchensinc.net >(440) 286-6920 >Chardon Ohio USA >--- >Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. >If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, >please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
