Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Hi Ian. I was primarily thinking of something like Secret of mana with the system I mentioned. Remember, in the game you didn't really do strafing attacks, indeed though billed as an action rpg it felt in large part turn based since basically you'd go in for an attack, smack the monster (usually after charging first), perhaps knock them back, then having to wait for your hit meter to get up again even for a normal hit and need to dodge the monster's attacks in the mean time. I agree that more complex movement mechanics such as strafing and those employed by fps games would be difficult on Ios, though I'd be interested to know what has been done in this line as far as the gyroscope goes, although I do likely agree the keyboard would be best. Audio and fp perspectives do go well together, whether using action or not. Indeed since I've always found graphical fp far too complex for my level of vision even when all objects were visible and with ca comparatively simple view such as the original doom, it was the chance to play genres in audio I'd not experienced previously graphically that first made me interested in audio games. I do agree however that it is a shame that proper 2D hasn't been done in audio, and possibly couldn't be due to informational change, since I have had huge amounts of fun with games like Mega man, metroid and Turrican for years, indeed the Indi graphical games I play still are mostly that genre. Dk country I do really enjoyk, for the atmosphere and different levels as well as for the pure challenge, although my preferences generally were for exploration games with a little more by way of defense rather than the arcade style of something like Dk or marrio. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Hi Dark, Some very good points there. I pretty much agree with all of them. We both agree there are still some games that benefit from the extra keys. Your example of a first person RPG was a good one. It lacked strafing and moving backward, but those are not a requirement if the RPG is slower paced such as for a Final Fantasy game where battles are handled in a separate combat mode. I might miss them if I were playing for instance, Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim. And maybe it wouldn't be too difficult to include them as well. But the more maneuvering and aiming quickly matters then the more the extra physical keys of a keyboard can help. I also appreciate your extra explanation of how targetting and moving is done for Secret of Mana on IOS. I had actually imagined an on screen SNES controller, lol. I can imagine Secret of Mana done in audio from a first person perspective as well. I actually feel first person lends itself better to audio games than top down games like Secret of Mana or platformers like Donkey Kong Country. I still miss those specific game mechanics though and wish there were a nice way to do them in audio. Specifically I mean playing Donkey Kong Country in audio without changing levels, the speed of the game, or turning it into first person. Just adding audio queues, TTS, and any extra keyboard inputs to make it magically accessible. But I'm not sure that's enough due to the bandwidth difference in the amount of information you get from audio compared with video. Ian Reed On 12/15/2013 4:46 PM, dark wrote: Well secret of Mana I know very well. As a teenager I combined playing cooperatively and watching a sighted friend of mine, (since I could see most of the characters providing they weren't in a zone with low contrast). There are several interesting points about the mobile version of secret of Mana however. For example, the combat mechanics while exactly the same as the snes use the touch screen capability to target a given monster for physical attacks just as with spells. So you move your character around with one finger, and use a second to target a monster for your character and for the other two to attack. I could actually imagine an accessible game similar to secret of mana from a first person perspective with your allies Ai controled, though of course the enviornments, sounds for all the monsters and massive massive massive! amount of area programming would be the big problem since just on a basic walking level Secret of Mana makes Shades of Doom look like wandering around a student bedsit! In terms of health and mana however, while I agree with you that a game like a mud with a huge amount of statistics to monitor, health, mana, staminer, experience split between many levels, number of practices etc would be a problem, since a game like Secret of Mana just has essentially two basic statistics I don't think a single on screen button or specific gesture to read mana and health would be too tortuous. papasangre 2 if not using the gyroscope has five separate on screen controls, two feet and hands and the cumpass slider, and that causes no trouble. I could imagine an rpg game with a walk forward button bottom center (no need for the two feet mechanics of Papasangre), a cumpass for turning above it, an attack button in the bottom right corner, a spell casting button just above it in the middle right, a speak status buttton in the bottom left hand corner and a status menue in the top left corner for changing out currently active spell etc. Heck, you could even reduce this down by having a control with different interaction methods, say tapping the status button once spoke your health and mana, while tapping and holding bought up the pause menue to change spells and weapons etc. While I do takee your point about limited keys, it'd after all be nearly impossible to do something like swamp without a pc keyboard (I think Swamp uses every keyboard key there is), if the games interface is designed correctly for it I wouldn't say the Iphone is specifically limited by laack of controls, it's just different and needs a different design approach, eg, having both mana and hp spoken on one key rather than having two separate ones as you would on a pc. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
sure, info to put into your client is: Threshold TCIP address thresholdrpg.com port number: 23 K - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming,was: : mac versus windows Hi Teresa. The reason more complex games get talked about in terms of replayability is because theoretically, the more complex the game is, the more random factors can be intorduced when you play. Take a trivia game for example. I have completed Jim kitchin's harry potter trivia and enjoyed it, however now I have seen all the questions. I'm not going to get a new challenge next time because I'll get the same questions again. Of course, the more questions you include and the longer it'd take you to get through a trivia game, the more replay there is (something like Freerice has close to unlimited replay). the same goes for fps games. In a game like Swamp, the zombies position is randomised, as is that of the items. You don't know what your going to run into from game to game, so you can always expect things to be a little different, and that's not counting the extra maps etc. With an rpg game likee King of Dragon pass, because there are so many more factors in the game to randomise there is much more chance of giving the player a new experience with something unexxpected. Now I'm not personally one to knock playing games for atmosphere. I've played through The Nightjar and will do so again, heck i've even played through chillingham and Grizly gulch about three times each and Terraformers twice, however the problem is with all of those games I now know where everything is, everything is the same the first time as the last time, there are no alternate routes, different enddings or things to change. If I replay them it is just! in the same way I would watch a film or read a book again, for atmosphere and experience and not for the explorationn and unexpected challenge that I'd get from playing an actual game like Swamp. That is the issue with replay and why it tends to be associated with more complex games, although i'd personally argue something like the choiceofgames are replayable at least a few times simply by nature of being choice based gamebooks and giving you different options, heck, the short gamebook "a bad week for King MElchion the dispicable" over on Fighting fantasy project, once I'd played it through once I then spent an additional hour seeing all the different ways the story could go, many of them highly unique. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Hi Teresa. The reason more complex games get talked about in terms of replayability is because theoretically, the more complex the game is, the more random factors can be intorduced when you play. Take a trivia game for example. I have completed Jim kitchin's harry potter trivia and enjoyed it, however now I have seen all the questions. I'm not going to get a new challenge next time because I'll get the same questions again. Of course, the more questions you include and the longer it'd take you to get through a trivia game, the more replay there is (something like Freerice has close to unlimited replay). the same goes for fps games. In a game like Swamp, the zombies position is randomised, as is that of the items. You don't know what your going to run into from game to game, so you can always expect things to be a little different, and that's not counting the extra maps etc. With an rpg game likee King of Dragon pass, because there are so many more factors in the game to randomise there is much more chance of giving the player a new experience with something unexxpected. Now I'm not personally one to knock playing games for atmosphere. I've played through The Nightjar and will do so again, heck i've even played through chillingham and Grizly gulch about three times each and Terraformers twice, however the problem is with all of those games I now know where everything is, everything is the same the first time as the last time, there are no alternate routes, different enddings or things to change. If I replay them it is just! in the same way I would watch a film or read a book again, for atmosphere and experience and not for the explorationn and unexpected challenge that I'd get from playing an actual game like Swamp. That is the issue with replay and why it tends to be associated with more complex games, although i'd personally argue something like the choiceofgames are replayable at least a few times simply by nature of being choice based gamebooks and giving you different options, heck, the short gamebook "a bad week for King MElchion the dispicable" over on Fighting fantasy project, once I'd played it through once I then spent an additional hour seeing all the different ways the story could go, many of them highly unique. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Well secret of Mana I know very well. As a teenager I combined playing cooperatively and watching a sighted friend of mine, (since I could see most of the characters providing they weren't in a zone with low contrast). There are several interesting points about the mobile version of secret of Mana however. For example, the combat mechanics while exactly the same as the snes use the touch screen capability to target a given monster for physical attacks just as with spells. So you move your character around with one finger, and use a second to target a monster for your character and for the other two to attack. I could actually imagine an accessible game similar to secret of mana from a first person perspective with your allies Ai controled, though of course the enviornments, sounds for all the monsters and massive massive massive! amount of area programming would be the big problem since just on a basic walking level Secret of Mana makes Shades of Doom look like wandering around a student bedsit! In terms of health and mana however, while I agree with you that a game like a mud with a huge amount of statistics to monitor, health, mana, staminer, experience split between many levels, number of practices etc would be a problem, since a game like Secret of Mana just has essentially two basic statistics I don't think a single on screen button or specific gesture to read mana and health would be too tortuous. papasangre 2 if not using the gyroscope has five separate on screen controls, two feet and hands and the cumpass slider, and that causes no trouble. I could imagine an rpg game with a walk forward button bottom center (no need for the two feet mechanics of Papasangre), a cumpass for turning above it, an attack button in the bottom right corner, a spell casting button just above it in the middle right, a speak status buttton in the bottom left hand corner and a status menue in the top left corner for changing out currently active spell etc. Heck, you could even reduce this down by having a control with different interaction methods, say tapping the status button once spoke your health and mana, while tapping and holding bought up the pause menue to change spells and weapons etc. While I do takee your point about limited keys, it'd after all be nearly impossible to do something like swamp without a pc keyboard (I think Swamp uses every keyboard key there is), if the games interface is designed correctly for it I wouldn't say the Iphone is specifically limited by laack of controls, it's just different and needs a different design approach, eg, having both mana and hp spoken on one key rather than having two separate ones as you would on a pc. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
I agree that complexity does not necessarily correlate with replayability. And it's obvious that many games can be made accessible without a keyboard, especially if the only interface is a menu. And the gyroscopes can definitely make up for some of the loss of a keyboard in games like Papa Sangre 2. But I do think that first person games could also be made more in depth and fast paced with a keyboard available. For instance did you ever find it cumbersome to maneuver your character in Papa Sangre 1? Or find it hard to tell how far you really were from that snuffle hog? Of course that's what gave the game some of it's challenge, so it worked well. But imagine trying to play Swamp on your iPhone without a keyboard. Are you going to tap your thumbs to run from the zombies? In game text chat would have also just died. There is definitely a wide range of games that can be made accessible on iPhone, but as I said there is also a large portion of games that do make more sense with a keyboard and it does give you a lot of extra player inputs to work with as a developer. Fair enough that you don't enjoy strategy or RPGs, it's definitely a personal choice. I don't get any enjoyment from card or board games, and these are probably the types of games enjoyed by the largest population of blind players. On Dec 15, 2013, at 11:29 AM, Teresa Cochran wrote: > I just don’t think that complexity of the game necessarily correlates with > replayability. I happen to prefer first-person shooters, trivia, and word > games, and these are games I can play over and over again. I played > Terraformers so many times i can’t count. I also don’t think accessibility > requires a keyboard, especially on IoS. If you factor in the gyroscope, IoS > games are more similar to video games. Moving the device or the body becomes > the interface. I realize this is more difficult with RPGs and strategy > games,but Solara has become very popular on IoS. I played it for awhile, but > strategy and RPGs are just not appealing to me. > > Teresa > > On the other hand, there are different fingers. > > On Dec 15, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Support wrote: > >> Ah, I loved Secret of Mana on the SNES. I beat it, multiple times I think. >> >> Secret of Mana happens to be a game that would be very difficult to make >> accessible, even on a computer. >> And when doing so an accessible game author would likely make heavy use of >> extra shortcut keys for the player to get at information like health and >> mana that is usually presented visually at all times and can be seen at a >> glance. >> >> I suppose my main point is just that accessible versions of many games have >> more player input requirements than sighted versions. >> >> So as Che mentioned a keyboard is a requirement for a large portion of >> accessible games. And it makes it difficult to target IOS with those types >> of games knowing that each of your users will need to also own a bluetooth >> keyboard. >> >> >> >> On Dec 15, 2013, at 7:01 AM, "dark" wrote: >> >>> Hi Teresa. >>> >>> I agree with you on replay, even in some of the basic games. I've replayed >>> choice of the dragon three times over and still haven't seen all of the >>> game, simply because as a gamebook it is highly replayable, and lets not >>> forget king of dragon pass with it's random set of events and other major >>> factors in the game. >>> >>> I can see Che's point with games like sixth sense and Zany touch and it is >>> true that there are very many arcade style games for Ios simply because the >>> fact of being on a small portable device lends itself to quick and casual >>> games, but that doesn't mean that is all that is available by any means. >>> >>> One game my brother has on his Ipad is Secret of Mana, an action rpg >>> similar to Zelda by square originally released for the Snes, and known to >>> be one of the longest and most complex games for that platform taking >>> nearly 50 hours to complete! >>> >>> So yeso yes, while there are lots of simpler, quicker games that's by no >>> means all the platform is capable of at all. >>> >>> Beware the Grue! >>> >>> Dark. >> >> --- >> Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org >> If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to >> gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. >> You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at >> http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. >> All messages are archived and can be searched and read at >> http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. >> If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, >> please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be s
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
I just don’t think that complexity of the game necessarily correlates with replayability. I happen to prefer first-person shooters, trivia, and word games, and these are games I can play over and over again. I played Terraformers so many times i can’t count. I also don’t think accessibility requires a keyboard, especially on IoS. If you factor in the gyroscope, IoS games are more similar to video games. Moving the device or the body becomes the interface. I realize this is more difficult with RPGs and strategy games,but Solara has become very popular on IoS. I played it for awhile, but strategy and RPGs are just not appealing to me. Teresa On the other hand, there are different fingers. On Dec 15, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Support wrote: > Ah, I loved Secret of Mana on the SNES. I beat it, multiple times I think. > > Secret of Mana happens to be a game that would be very difficult to make > accessible, even on a computer. > And when doing so an accessible game author would likely make heavy use of > extra shortcut keys for the player to get at information like health and mana > that is usually presented visually at all times and can be seen at a glance. > > I suppose my main point is just that accessible versions of many games have > more player input requirements than sighted versions. > > So as Che mentioned a keyboard is a requirement for a large portion of > accessible games. And it makes it difficult to target IOS with those types > of games knowing that each of your users will need to also own a bluetooth > keyboard. > > > > On Dec 15, 2013, at 7:01 AM, "dark" wrote: > >> Hi Teresa. >> >> I agree with you on replay, even in some of the basic games. I've replayed >> choice of the dragon three times over and still haven't seen all of the >> game, simply because as a gamebook it is highly replayable, and lets not >> forget king of dragon pass with it's random set of events and other major >> factors in the game. >> >> I can see Che's point with games like sixth sense and Zany touch and it is >> true that there are very many arcade style games for Ios simply because the >> fact of being on a small portable device lends itself to quick and casual >> games, but that doesn't mean that is all that is available by any means. >> >> One game my brother has on his Ipad is Secret of Mana, an action rpg similar >> to Zelda by square originally released for the Snes, and known to be one of >> the longest and most complex games for that platform taking nearly 50 hours >> to complete! >> >> So yeso yes, while there are lots of simpler, quicker games that's by no >> means all the platform is capable of at all. >> >> Beware the Grue! >> >> Dark. >> > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Ah, I loved Secret of Mana on the SNES. I beat it, multiple times I think. Secret of Mana happens to be a game that would be very difficult to make accessible, even on a computer. And when doing so an accessible game author would likely make heavy use of extra shortcut keys for the player to get at information like health and mana that is usually presented visually at all times and can be seen at a glance. I suppose my main point is just that accessible versions of many games have more player input requirements than sighted versions. So as Che mentioned a keyboard is a requirement for a large portion of accessible games. And it makes it difficult to target IOS with those types of games knowing that each of your users will need to also own a bluetooth keyboard. On Dec 15, 2013, at 7:01 AM, "dark" wrote: > Hi Teresa. > > I agree with you on replay, even in some of the basic games. I've replayed > choice of the dragon three times over and still haven't seen all of the game, > simply because as a gamebook it is highly replayable, and lets not forget > king of dragon pass with it's random set of events and other major factors in > the game. > > I can see Che's point with games like sixth sense and Zany touch and it is > true that there are very many arcade style games for Ios simply because the > fact of being on a small portable device lends itself to quick and casual > games, but that doesn't mean that is all that is available by any means. > > One game my brother has on his Ipad is Secret of Mana, an action rpg similar > to Zelda by square originally released for the Snes, and known to be one of > the longest and most complex games for that platform taking nearly 50 hours > to complete! > > So yeso yes, while there are lots of simpler, quicker games that's by no > means all the platform is capable of at all. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Hi Teresa. I agree with you on replay, even in some of the basic games. I've replayed choice of the dragon three times over and still haven't seen all of the game, simply because as a gamebook it is highly replayable, and lets not forget king of dragon pass with it's random set of events and other major factors in the game. I can see Che's point with games like sixth sense and Zany touch and it is true that there are very many arcade style games for Ios simply because the fact of being on a small portable device lends itself to quick and casual games, but that doesn't mean that is all that is available by any means. One game my brother has on his Ipad is Secret of Mana, an action rpg similar to Zelda by square originally released for the Snes, and known to be one of the longest and most complex games for that platform taking nearly 50 hours to complete! So yeso yes, while there are lots of simpler, quicker games that's by no means all the platform is capable of at all. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Um, i must strongly disagree with Che’s point about the lack of replayability in IoS games. I replay Papa Sangre games and (lord help me) Soul Trapper a lot. Also, Papa sangre II has been very popular in the “mainstream” community as well. I think that in order to market accessible games, it’s best if they’re accessible to as many folks as possible. Teresa "The Golden Age of science fiction is twelve."--Pete Graham On Dec 14, 2013, at 2:36 PM, Darren Harris wrote: > Hi, > > This is where developing games for multiple types of people comes into play > here I think. > > Look at the various audio games that there are out there on IOS for example? > How many of them were developed specifically for blind people yet sighted > people play them? Take the blindness lable away and simply make them > accessible then you have your target audience. Freak is an example of this. > the idea isn't to simply create games for blind people specifically but to > create games for all that blind people can play. This to me is where the > accessible markets fall flat because the developers are not doing this. > > With windows, take smugglers for example. The developer was approached, he > agreed and made it accessible. There you go. > > -Original Message- > From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Che Martin > Sent: 14 December 2013 22:30 > To: 'Gamers Discussion list' > Subject: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac > versus windows > > Hi ya phil, > Yeah man, as a commercial entity selling to a very limited market, the > price point of iOS games is a concern. > As you mentioned, , while it is true that a release of an iOS title will > far out sale the same title for mac or windows, at what price will it be > offered ? > You said you have purchased over 40 games, but you've probably spent less > than you would have for 2 premium mac or windows games I would think? > True, the games for mobile devices don't offer nearly the depth or > replayability of a quality premium mac or PC title, but even if it did, what > would folks pay for it? > For instance, , I think Jeremy could have easily sold swamp for $50 a > license and moved at the very minimum 250 units, but what would he get for > it on iOS with the same features? > Of course, you'd need a bluetooth keyboard hooked up to your iOS device to > get the same features, but you catch my drift. > In the very limited market of accessible games, even if one sold a couple > thousand copies at a buck a piece, a developer wouldn't even be approaching > minimum wage per hour most likely. > And if an accessible developer tried to sell a game for $15 or $20, I > think a great deal of potential purchasers would scream rip off, because > they are used to the super low price of most apps, not considering most of > those apps are selling to tens of thousands of customers. > This is not to say its all about money, nobody develops accessible games > to get rich, but it is nice to get a few ounces of dough coming in for tons > of hard work. > I am personally hoping to release a set of educational apps for blind kids > for free once I learn xCode. After that, I may look more closely at the > commercial market, including micro purchases for in game upgrades, etc. > No matter what, it is an interesting time for accessible gaming me thinks, > as mister Zimmerman so concisely put it, the times they are a changin'. > Take care, > Che > > > -Original Message- > From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Phil Vlasak > Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 6:16 AM > To: Gamers Discussion list > Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question > > Hi Che, > I am sure Josh is talking about his mac games are outselling his windows > games. > I am sure when Draconis develops a full IOS game for iPhone and iPad, that > will outsell the other two combined. > I just got my iPhone two months ago and already have purcheased over forty > games on it. > True, they are in the $0.99 and 1.99 price point. > > > - Original Message - > From: "Che Martin" > To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" > Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 4:18 AM > Subject: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question > > >> Hi ya, >> Just red this quote from the list: >> Start quote: >> >>> First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor >> strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows >> sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some >> 10 years ago or so. It is
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Hi dark, Yah, as far as the extra payments to advance in a game, that is what I was referring to with the micro payments. It is an interesting model, and definitely one I will be looking at later on, it is perfect for a RPG., or space exploration epic. For now, I have to clear my slate of rail racer 2 and make a few small tweaks to our online cribbage game at BA, but once that is taken care of, I will be focusing tightly on iOS. Rr would be a fun game on a mobile platform, but much like swamp, it would require a keyboard interface, there are just too many things you have to get feedback on to be able to do it with a single touch screen. Not to mention, I can barely make a hello world demo on iOS, much less something as extremely complex as rr. I think there is some huge potential that hasn't been scratched yet for accessible gaming on mobile platforms, its just gonna take time and effort from developers to get there. It is unfortunate that there is no way to get any hard numbers on the amount of folks using iOS with voiceover exclusively, the lack of data really muddles the picture for accessible developers. Nothing unique there, same goes for windows VI gamers, just no way to pin it down. BTW, Che is spelled c h e, pronounced shay, if yer curious, I was named after Che Guevara, the revolutionary. A man, despite what one might think of his politics or tactics, was hard core dedicated to his cause. Take care, Che -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 6:30 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows Hi Chae. Actually, while many Ios games are indeed on the lower end of the price spectrum that is a matter that is likely to change, since some of the major mainstream coorporations are producing rpgs and the like. Squares new Iphone game for example was priced at 20 usd. Even in the accessible games market, after seeing King of Dragon pass for 10 dollars, I am less convinced that all Ios games need to be that much less than windows ones. no, you probably couldn't sell a 50 dollar game, but a 15 or 20 dollar one would not be so unusual provided it had the depth to go with it. While prices on the Iphone are lower, eg, 5 usd for a sound adventure game like Papasangre or 10 or 15 at most for a complex game, I don't believe they're quite as low as I initially thought. Plus of course, remember on Ios people are far more comfortable with in ap purchices even of initially published games. you could for example publish a racing game like Rail racer with an initial 50 tracks and upgrades up to level 3 for 7 usd, then publish packs of an additional 50 tracks for 5 usd each. You could also do the route that games like Solara use of having in game currency buy upgrades and charge players for the currency convertion, and provided you A, allowed a method to get some currency in the game even at slow amounts and B, weren't grasping with the upgrades and free version you'd likely make up extra money that way. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Hi Chae. Actually, while many Ios games are indeed on the lower end of the price spectrum that is a matter that is likely to change, since some of the major mainstream coorporations are producing rpgs and the like. Squares new Iphone game for example was priced at 20 usd. Even in the accessible games market, after seeing King of Dragon pass for 10 dollars, I am less convinced that all Ios games need to be that much less than windows ones. no, you probably couldn't sell a 50 dollar game, but a 15 or 20 dollar one would not be so unusual provided it had the depth to go with it. While prices on the Iphone are lower, eg, 5 usd for a sound adventure game like Papasangre or 10 or 15 at most for a complex game, I don't believe they're quite as low as I initially thought. Plus of course, remember on Ios people are far more comfortable with in ap purchices even of initially published games. you could for example publish a racing game like Rail racer with an initial 50 tracks and upgrades up to level 3 for 7 usd, then publish packs of an additional 50 tracks for 5 usd each. You could also do the route that games like Solara use of having in game currency buy upgrades and charge players for the currency convertion, and provided you A, allowed a method to get some currency in the game even at slow amounts and B, weren't grasping with the upgrades and free version you'd likely make up extra money that way. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Hi, This is where developing games for multiple types of people comes into play here I think. Look at the various audio games that there are out there on IOS for example? How many of them were developed specifically for blind people yet sighted people play them? Take the blindness lable away and simply make them accessible then you have your target audience. Freak is an example of this. the idea isn't to simply create games for blind people specifically but to create games for all that blind people can play. This to me is where the accessible markets fall flat because the developers are not doing this. With windows, take smugglers for example. The developer was approached, he agreed and made it accessible. There you go. -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Che Martin Sent: 14 December 2013 22:30 To: 'Gamers Discussion list' Subject: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows Hi ya phil, Yeah man, as a commercial entity selling to a very limited market, the price point of iOS games is a concern. As you mentioned, , while it is true that a release of an iOS title will far out sale the same title for mac or windows, at what price will it be offered ? You said you have purchased over 40 games, but you've probably spent less than you would have for 2 premium mac or windows games I would think? True, the games for mobile devices don't offer nearly the depth or replayability of a quality premium mac or PC title, but even if it did, what would folks pay for it? For instance, , I think Jeremy could have easily sold swamp for $50 a license and moved at the very minimum 250 units, but what would he get for it on iOS with the same features? Of course, you'd need a bluetooth keyboard hooked up to your iOS device to get the same features, but you catch my drift. In the very limited market of accessible games, even if one sold a couple thousand copies at a buck a piece, a developer wouldn't even be approaching minimum wage per hour most likely. And if an accessible developer tried to sell a game for $15 or $20, I think a great deal of potential purchasers would scream rip off, because they are used to the super low price of most apps, not considering most of those apps are selling to tens of thousands of customers. This is not to say its all about money, nobody develops accessible games to get rich, but it is nice to get a few ounces of dough coming in for tons of hard work. I am personally hoping to release a set of educational apps for blind kids for free once I learn xCode. After that, I may look more closely at the commercial market, including micro purchases for in game upgrades, etc. No matter what, it is an interesting time for accessible gaming me thinks, as mister Zimmerman so concisely put it, the times they are a changin'. Take care, Che -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Phil Vlasak Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 6:16 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Che, I am sure Josh is talking about his mac games are outselling his windows games. I am sure when Draconis develops a full IOS game for iPhone and iPad, that will outsell the other two combined. I just got my iPhone two months ago and already have purcheased over forty games on it. True, they are in the $0.99 and 1.99 price point. - Original Message - From: "Che Martin" To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 4:18 AM Subject: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question > Hi ya, > Just red this quote from the list: > Start quote: > >> First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor > strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows > sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some > 10 years ago or so. It isn't just about raw user numbers, it is about > demographics and the quality of those users. > End quote > > Maybe I am misunderstanding the quote here, but are you saying that > macs are outselling windows machines? > Where are you getting those numbers? > Its been a while since I checked, but last time I took notice macs > were around 5 or 6 percent with PC's over 80 percent. > I am sure the mac has made strides in recent years, but if they are > outselling windows machines in pretty much any significant market, > that is surprising news to me. > I could see where macs may be accelerating with the decline of the > PC, but last I checked, they have a really long way to go to be > anywhere near outselling windows machines. > If macs are indeed outselling pc's with windows, I would have lost a > large bet on that, had a wager
[Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Hi ya phil, Yeah man, as a commercial entity selling to a very limited market, the price point of iOS games is a concern. As you mentioned, , while it is true that a release of an iOS title will far out sale the same title for mac or windows, at what price will it be offered ? You said you have purchased over 40 games, but you've probably spent less than you would have for 2 premium mac or windows games I would think? True, the games for mobile devices don't offer nearly the depth or replayability of a quality premium mac or PC title, but even if it did, what would folks pay for it? For instance, , I think Jeremy could have easily sold swamp for $50 a license and moved at the very minimum 250 units, but what would he get for it on iOS with the same features? Of course, you'd need a bluetooth keyboard hooked up to your iOS device to get the same features, but you catch my drift. In the very limited market of accessible games, even if one sold a couple thousand copies at a buck a piece, a developer wouldn't even be approaching minimum wage per hour most likely. And if an accessible developer tried to sell a game for $15 or $20, I think a great deal of potential purchasers would scream rip off, because they are used to the super low price of most apps, not considering most of those apps are selling to tens of thousands of customers. This is not to say its all about money, nobody develops accessible games to get rich, but it is nice to get a few ounces of dough coming in for tons of hard work. I am personally hoping to release a set of educational apps for blind kids for free once I learn xCode. After that, I may look more closely at the commercial market, including micro purchases for in game upgrades, etc. No matter what, it is an interesting time for accessible gaming me thinks, as mister Zimmerman so concisely put it, the times they are a changin'. Take care, Che -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Phil Vlasak Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 6:16 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Che, I am sure Josh is talking about his mac games are outselling his windows games. I am sure when Draconis develops a full IOS game for iPhone and iPad, that will outsell the other two combined. I just got my iPhone two months ago and already have purcheased over forty games on it. True, they are in the $0.99 and 1.99 price point. - Original Message - From: "Che Martin" To: "'Gamers Discussion list'" Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 4:18 AM Subject: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question > Hi ya, > Just red this quote from the list: > Start quote: > >> First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor > strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows > sales, > even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years > ago > or so. It isn't just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and > the quality of those users. > End quote > > Maybe I am misunderstanding the quote here, but are you saying that macs > are outselling windows machines? > Where are you getting those numbers? > Its been a while since I checked, but last time I took notice macs were > around 5 or 6 percent with PC's over 80 percent. > I am sure the mac has made strides in recent years, but if they are > outselling windows machines in pretty much any significant market, that is > surprising news to me. > I could see where macs may be accelerating with the decline of the PC, > but > last I checked, they have a really long way to go to be anywhere near > outselling windows machines. > If macs are indeed outselling pc's with windows, I would have lost a > large > bet on that, had a wager been presented to my degenerate gambling self. > Here is what I dug up quickly on google before going to bed: > In an interview with Computerworld, Gartner analyst Carolina Milanesi says > a > major OS shift is coming. By 2015, she predicts, devices running Apple > operating systems will overtake those running Windows. > > > Last year, shipments of products running Windows still handily outnumbered > those running Mac OS and iOS, by 347 million to 213 million, according to > figures from Gartner published Monday. The lead will be slashed to 23 > million in 2014, and the Apple OSes will likely outnumber Windows devices > in > 2015, said Carolina Milanesi, research vice president at Gartner. > > End article clip > > So based on those numbers, even throwing in the mobile iOS into the mac > equation, windows is outselling them, strip out iOS and those numbers get > far more out of balance when we're talking windows versus mac straight up. > Obviously on the mobile side of things, apple is owning microsoft, but if > we're talking macs versus windows, i.e. desktops and laptops, its not even > close, and won't be for many ye
