Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
THat last thread was right on topic. if a player buys a game, Sim City 4, for example, and it doesn't work right because E.A. servers screw off and take a coffee break, then the player is ticked, and an internet meme begins. It's a good point, though, that you don't have to stop everybody from pirating to make it worthwhile, a point I'll remember when I get into the game scene. I have no desire to make my game pirate proof, just idiot proof. If the smart guys figure it out, well, they were already a lost cause. As for changing the nature of mankind, removing money from the equasion would work. If we all bartered for software, it'd be really funny. I'll give you that game, because you taught me how to sing a pretty song to my girl. Yeah. But you can't play online, because you haven't given your regular amount of eggs to the ISP guy. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 5/1/13, Ian Reed supp...@blindaudiogames.com wrote: Hi Dennis, Thanks for taking the time to explain that further. I found it very enlightening. I guess there are ways I had not thought about to further secure a client side game. Much appreciated, Ian Reed On 5/1/2013 9:41 AM, Dennis Towne wrote: Ian, Obviously, games which have nearly all of the content hosted only on the server, such as muds, are much more piracy proof, but there are a lot of shades of grey in between fully server side and fully client side. Yes, there will always be ways to hack game executables, but some are a lot harder than others. One of the easiest ways is to use some form of downloadable content, with unique crypto keys per client and per account. The idea would be that when it's time to play chapter 2 for the first time, you have to download and decrypt the chapter from the server, and the encryption is tied to your account. You give the file to somebody else, it doesn't work. You give your keys to somebody else, it doesn't work. You hack out the little piece of code that does authentication, and you can no longer decrypt the file, and it doesn't work. There's a lot of weaker ways of handling things too, and no sane developer would expect any of these to be perfect - they merely have to be hard enough to work around that it isn't easy to just give the crack to someone else. If LeetHacker6 manages to crack and decrypt the game, that's fine - but if he can't easily give the crack to other people, it's not going to be as big a problem as just posting valid keys to a bulletin board. The final piece of the puzzle is that all of this stuff has to be completely invisible to real players. Real players buy the game, start it up, and want to play. If the protections fail or go stupid, all the player knows is that the game sucks and won't work right. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Ian Reed supp...@blindaudiogames.com wrote: Hi Dennis, You said: This is why I won't bother to produce any standalone games unless I intend to give them away. Anyone who thinks they can sell standalone games without strong 'phone home' server authorization and make money is fooling themselves. I say: Very interesting comment. I'd like to break down the strong 'phone home' server authorization term to understand it better. Obviously game clients that require a server in order to play are very piracy proof. Your Alter Aeon is a good example of this though you do not charge for player accounts, but if you did it should be easy to ensure any created account had to be paid for. Were you also implying that a standalone game that for instance, contacts a server every time it is opened and does not let someone play unless the server could be contacted would be pirated less than one that just uses an unlock code? Or did the line stop with a game client that actually requires the server to play? From things I read ages ago I got the impression that a game could be patched to take out the small bit of logic that contacts the server just as elete hackers can reverse engineer your executable to see what key generation scheme you use. If that is the case then I don't know of any anti piracy mechanism that would stop elete hackers except for the game really being on the server and the player only having access to the client. And if piracy rates are as high as you say it is a pretty difficult problem. Ian Reed --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
Yes but people do things like that all the time. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
That would depend on the country in witch the crime was committed. Do they hold up the US copy right law or do they have one of there own? Your walking a very gray area there. At 01:47 AM 5/1/2013, you wrote: Hi Enes, I don't know. The law I sited earlier, the No Electronic Theft Act, applies only to the United States and its citizens. I don't know what is in place for international cyber crimes. I assume they must have something in place. Cheers! On 4/30/13, enes enes.sari...@gmail.com wrote: hi thomas, doesn't that amount of jailtime and money change based on which country the dev is in and the user is in? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
Ian, Obviously, games which have nearly all of the content hosted only on the server, such as muds, are much more piracy proof, but there are a lot of shades of grey in between fully server side and fully client side. Yes, there will always be ways to hack game executables, but some are a lot harder than others. One of the easiest ways is to use some form of downloadable content, with unique crypto keys per client and per account. The idea would be that when it's time to play chapter 2 for the first time, you have to download and decrypt the chapter from the server, and the encryption is tied to your account. You give the file to somebody else, it doesn't work. You give your keys to somebody else, it doesn't work. You hack out the little piece of code that does authentication, and you can no longer decrypt the file, and it doesn't work. There's a lot of weaker ways of handling things too, and no sane developer would expect any of these to be perfect - they merely have to be hard enough to work around that it isn't easy to just give the crack to someone else. If LeetHacker6 manages to crack and decrypt the game, that's fine - but if he can't easily give the crack to other people, it's not going to be as big a problem as just posting valid keys to a bulletin board. The final piece of the puzzle is that all of this stuff has to be completely invisible to real players. Real players buy the game, start it up, and want to play. If the protections fail or go stupid, all the player knows is that the game sucks and won't work right. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Ian Reed supp...@blindaudiogames.com wrote: Hi Dennis, You said: This is why I won't bother to produce any standalone games unless I intend to give them away. Anyone who thinks they can sell standalone games without strong 'phone home' server authorization and make money is fooling themselves. I say: Very interesting comment. I'd like to break down the strong 'phone home' server authorization term to understand it better. Obviously game clients that require a server in order to play are very piracy proof. Your Alter Aeon is a good example of this though you do not charge for player accounts, but if you did it should be easy to ensure any created account had to be paid for. Were you also implying that a standalone game that for instance, contacts a server every time it is opened and does not let someone play unless the server could be contacted would be pirated less than one that just uses an unlock code? Or did the line stop with a game client that actually requires the server to play? From things I read ages ago I got the impression that a game could be patched to take out the small bit of logic that contacts the server just as elete hackers can reverse engineer your executable to see what key generation scheme you use. If that is the case then I don't know of any anti piracy mechanism that would stop elete hackers except for the game really being on the server and the player only having access to the client. And if piracy rates are as high as you say it is a pretty difficult problem. Ian Reed --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
Hi Dennis, Thanks for taking the time to explain that further. I found it very enlightening. I guess there are ways I had not thought about to further secure a client side game. Much appreciated, Ian Reed On 5/1/2013 9:41 AM, Dennis Towne wrote: Ian, Obviously, games which have nearly all of the content hosted only on the server, such as muds, are much more piracy proof, but there are a lot of shades of grey in between fully server side and fully client side. Yes, there will always be ways to hack game executables, but some are a lot harder than others. One of the easiest ways is to use some form of downloadable content, with unique crypto keys per client and per account. The idea would be that when it's time to play chapter 2 for the first time, you have to download and decrypt the chapter from the server, and the encryption is tied to your account. You give the file to somebody else, it doesn't work. You give your keys to somebody else, it doesn't work. You hack out the little piece of code that does authentication, and you can no longer decrypt the file, and it doesn't work. There's a lot of weaker ways of handling things too, and no sane developer would expect any of these to be perfect - they merely have to be hard enough to work around that it isn't easy to just give the crack to someone else. If LeetHacker6 manages to crack and decrypt the game, that's fine - but if he can't easily give the crack to other people, it's not going to be as big a problem as just posting valid keys to a bulletin board. The final piece of the puzzle is that all of this stuff has to be completely invisible to real players. Real players buy the game, start it up, and want to play. If the protections fail or go stupid, all the player knows is that the game sucks and won't work right. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Ian Reed supp...@blindaudiogames.com wrote: Hi Dennis, You said: This is why I won't bother to produce any standalone games unless I intend to give them away. Anyone who thinks they can sell standalone games without strong 'phone home' server authorization and make money is fooling themselves. I say: Very interesting comment. I'd like to break down the strong 'phone home' server authorization term to understand it better. Obviously game clients that require a server in order to play are very piracy proof. Your Alter Aeon is a good example of this though you do not charge for player accounts, but if you did it should be easy to ensure any created account had to be paid for. Were you also implying that a standalone game that for instance, contacts a server every time it is opened and does not let someone play unless the server could be contacted would be pirated less than one that just uses an unlock code? Or did the line stop with a game client that actually requires the server to play? From things I read ages ago I got the impression that a game could be patched to take out the small bit of logic that contacts the server just as elete hackers can reverse engineer your executable to see what key generation scheme you use. If that is the case then I don't know of any anti piracy mechanism that would stop elete hackers except for the game really being on the server and the player only having access to the client. And if piracy rates are as high as you say it is a pretty difficult problem. Ian Reed --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
Speaking of piracy, does anyone know the approximate cost, or what would be involved in, penalizing these pirates to the full extent of the law, and what you would get in return for the money, time, and effort spent? You can answer off list in order to not think the answers would make them feel that it is safe to pirate because nothing would be done about the rampant problem. Could it be possible for developers to get together and split the cost involved? Thanks. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net To: gamers discussion list Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 7:10 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Piracy rate? Hi guys, I am incredibly curious. JHow does an audio game developer discover how many people have pirated their game? I mean, 90% is huge. I have trouble starting my computer, but apparently most of the VI community has developed super villain hacking skills. Is there a special class? Ok, I am being facetious, but it just sounds really improbable to me. How do you know? Are you able to track it ? If you can track it, can't you stop it once tracked? Thanks for any input, al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
Don't want to get into too many details publicly, but, at least for our part, there are certain things we've been able to track over the course of many, many years. By collecting as much data as possible, you can make reasonably well educated guesses on how many users have pirated a particular title, and compare that to the sales you have had. On Apr 30, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net wrote: Hi guys, I am incredibly curious. JHow does an audio game developer discover how many people have pirated their game? I mean, 90% is huge. I have trouble starting my computer, but apparently most of the VI community has developed super villain hacking skills. Is there a special class? Ok, I am being facetious, but it just sounds really improbable to me. How do you know? Are you able to track it ? If you can track it, can't you stop it once tracked? Thanks for any input, al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
Hmmm, Like a audio anti piracy defense fund? al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:20 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate? Speaking of piracy, does anyone know the approximate cost, or what would be involved in, penalizing these pirates to the full extent of the law, and what you would get in return for the money, time, and effort spent? You can answer off list in order to not think the answers would make them feel that it is safe to pirate because nothing would be done about the rampant problem. Could it be possible for developers to get together and split the cost involved? Thanks. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net To: gamers discussion list Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 7:10 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Piracy rate? Hi guys, I am incredibly curious. JHow does an audio game developer discover how many people have pirated their game? I mean, 90% is huge. I have trouble starting my computer, but apparently most of the VI community has developed super villain hacking skills. Is there a special class? Ok, I am being facetious, but it just sounds really improbable to me. How do you know? Are you able to track it ? If you can track it, can't you stop it once tracked? Thanks for any input, al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
Thank you for answering. I appreciate the sensetivity of the subject, so thanks. I was just shocked to hear such a high percentage. al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: Draconis To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate? Don't want to get into too many details publicly, but, at least for our part, there are certain things we've been able to track over the course of many, many years. By collecting as much data as possible, you can make reasonably well educated guesses on how many users have pirated a particular title, and compare that to the sales you have had. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
Hi Charles, Well, if a developer wants to prosecute a software pirate to the full extent of the law all they have to do is report it to their local prosecutor and report it as a theft. According to the 1997 No Electronic Theft Act a convicted software pirate can receive five years in jail and a $25 fine. That's if a developer wants to press criminal charges. If a developer wants to sue for damages the minimum is $15 per instance of illegal copyright infringement. So if Joe gives his key out to 10 people and the developer can track his key to all 10 people he can be sued for a total of $1.5 million in damages. Of course, as we've already established most blind people aren't rich so there is no way to get $1.5 million in damages from a pirate. The irony here is while most developers have been rather light handed about piracy if they wanted to get nasty they could really make their lives miserable. I think five years in prison and $25 in fines might discourage a few pirates you think? Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Speaking of piracy, does anyone know the approximate cost, or what would be involved in, penalizing these pirates to the full extent of the law, and what you would get in return for the money, time, and effort spent? You can answer off list in order to not think the answers would make them feel that it is safe to pirate because nothing would be done about the rampant problem. Could it be possible for developers to get together and split the cost involved? Thanks. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
I would think so. I don't know how much money Draconis lost in possible sales when someone pirated Monkey Business and made it available to others. I seem to remember that there were a lot of downloads all of a sudden, though. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:48 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate? Hi Charles, Well, if a developer wants to prosecute a software pirate to the full extent of the law all they have to do is report it to their local prosecutor and report it as a theft. According to the 1997 No Electronic Theft Act a convicted software pirate can receive five years in jail and a $25 fine. That's if a developer wants to press criminal charges. If a developer wants to sue for damages the minimum is $15 per instance of illegal copyright infringement. So if Joe gives his key out to 10 people and the developer can track his key to all 10 people he can be sued for a total of $1.5 million in damages. Of course, as we've already established most blind people aren't rich so there is no way to get $1.5 million in damages from a pirate. The irony here is while most developers have been rather light handed about piracy if they wanted to get nasty they could really make their lives miserable. I think five years in prison and $25 in fines might discourage a few pirates you think? Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Speaking of piracy, does anyone know the approximate cost, or what would be involved in, penalizing these pirates to the full extent of the law, and what you would get in return for the money, time, and effort spent? You can answer off list in order to not think the answers would make them feel that it is safe to pirate because nothing would be done about the rampant problem. Could it be possible for developers to get together and split the cost involved? Thanks. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
There have been a number of developers who have tracked piracy rates in various ways, and the numbers I have are more from the mainstream and sighted indy game scene. It's not that everyone is an elite hacker, it's more that one or two elite hackers can produce a download that works for everyone with a single click. Once that download is out there, people share it. Hey man, can you skype me that download? As for prosecuting people, it costs more than it's worth, so nobody does it. Look at the MPAA and the record companies - they've tried making an example of downloaders, and it hasn't stopped music sharing If anything, it's just made them look bad. Suing your players will just make your players hate you. This is why I won't bother to produce any standalone games unless I intend to give them away. Anyone who thinks they can sell standalone games without strong 'phone home' server authorization and make money is fooling themselves. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Charles, Well, if a developer wants to prosecute a software pirate to the full extent of the law all they have to do is report it to their local prosecutor and report it as a theft. According to the 1997 No Electronic Theft Act a convicted software pirate can receive five years in jail and a $25 fine. That's if a developer wants to press criminal charges. If a developer wants to sue for damages the minimum is $15 per instance of illegal copyright infringement. So if Joe gives his key out to 10 people and the developer can track his key to all 10 people he can be sued for a total of $1.5 million in damages. Of course, as we've already established most blind people aren't rich so there is no way to get $1.5 million in damages from a pirate. The irony here is while most developers have been rather light handed about piracy if they wanted to get nasty they could really make their lives miserable. I think five years in prison and $25 in fines might discourage a few pirates you think? Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Speaking of piracy, does anyone know the approximate cost, or what would be involved in, penalizing these pirates to the full extent of the law, and what you would get in return for the money, time, and effort spent? You can answer off list in order to not think the answers would make them feel that it is safe to pirate because nothing would be done about the rampant problem. Could it be possible for developers to get together and split the cost involved? Thanks. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
I don't know this for sure, but I would think that the crime is committed in the developer's location, so the penalties according to the law in that country would be the ones that apply. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: enes enes.sari...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate? hi thomas, doesn't that amount of jailtime and money change based on which country the dev is in and the user is in? On 5/1/2013 4:48 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Charles, Well, if a developer wants to prosecute a software pirate to the full extent of the law all they have to do is report it to their local prosecutor and report it as a theft. According to the 1997 No Electronic Theft Act a convicted software pirate can receive five years in jail and a $25 fine. That's if a developer wants to press criminal charges. If a developer wants to sue for damages the minimum is $15 per instance of illegal copyright infringement. So if Joe gives his key out to 10 people and the developer can track his key to all 10 people he can be sued for a total of $1.5 million in damages. Of course, as we've already established most blind people aren't rich so there is no way to get $1.5 million in damages from a pirate. The irony here is while most developers have been rather light handed about piracy if they wanted to get nasty they could really make their lives miserable. I think five years in prison and $25 in fines might discourage a few pirates you think? Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Speaking of piracy, does anyone know the approximate cost, or what would be involved in, penalizing these pirates to the full extent of the law, and what you would get in return for the money, time, and effort spent? You can answer off list in order to not think the answers would make them feel that it is safe to pirate because nothing would be done about the rampant problem. Could it be possible for developers to get together and split the cost involved? Thanks. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
Hi Dennis, You said: This is why I won't bother to produce any standalone games unless I intend to give them away. Anyone who thinks they can sell standalone games without strong 'phone home' server authorization and make money is fooling themselves. I say: Very interesting comment. I'd like to break down the strong 'phone home' server authorization term to understand it better. Obviously game clients that require a server in order to play are very piracy proof. Your Alter Aeon is a good example of this though you do not charge for player accounts, but if you did it should be easy to ensure any created account had to be paid for. Were you also implying that a standalone game that for instance, contacts a server every time it is opened and does not let someone play unless the server could be contacted would be pirated less than one that just uses an unlock code? Or did the line stop with a game client that actually requires the server to play? From things I read ages ago I got the impression that a game could be patched to take out the small bit of logic that contacts the server just as elete hackers can reverse engineer your executable to see what key generation scheme you use. If that is the case then I don't know of any anti piracy mechanism that would stop elete hackers except for the game really being on the server and the player only having access to the client. And if piracy rates are as high as you say it is a pretty difficult problem. Ian Reed --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
Hi Dennis, I never thought of that, and that makes sense a bit more. Still, it is disappointing. Then again, your right. Everything is pirated now , music, books, movies, whatever it is, everyone sighted or not seems to have their hand in it in some fashion. It is almost like you would have to change the nature of mankind itself, lol. Nothing some tasers and a squad of stormtroopers couldn't handle, but oh, the electric bills! grin. Thank you for explaining that to me, I appreciate you taking the time. al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: Dennis Towne To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate? There have been a number of developers who have tracked piracy rates in various ways, and the numbers I have are more from the mainstream and sighted indy game scene. It's not that everyone is an elite hacker, it's more that one or two elite hackers can produce a download that works for everyone with a single click. Once that download is out there, people share it. Hey man, can you skype me that download? As for prosecuting people, it costs more than it's worth, so nobody does it. Look at the MPAA and the record companies - they've tried making an example of downloaders, and it hasn't stopped music sharing If anything, it's just made them look bad. Suing your players will just make your players hate you. This is why I won't bother to produce any standalone games unless I intend to give them away. Anyone who thinks they can sell standalone games without strong 'phone home' server authorization and make money is fooling themselves. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
unless someone invented a key generator for monkey business, it would be extremely foolish for someone to distribute the download link since their name and serial number would show up immediately. At 12:08 PM 5/1/2013, you wrote: I would think so. I don't know how much money Draconis lost in possible sales when someone pirated Monkey Business and made it available to others. I seem to remember that there were a lot of downloads all of a sudden, though. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:48 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate? Hi Charles, Well, if a developer wants to prosecute a software pirate to the full extent of the law all they have to do is report it to their local prosecutor and report it as a theft. According to the 1997 No Electronic Theft Act a convicted software pirate can receive five years in jail and a $25 fine. That's if a developer wants to press criminal charges. If a developer wants to sue for damages the minimum is $15 per instance of illegal copyright infringement. So if Joe gives his key out to 10 people and the developer can track his key to all 10 people he can be sued for a total of $1.5 million in damages. Of course, as we've already established most blind people aren't rich so there is no way to get $1.5 million in damages from a pirate. The irony here is while most developers have been rather light handed about piracy if they wanted to get nasty they could really make their lives miserable. I think five years in prison and $25 in fines might discourage a few pirates you think? Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Speaking of piracy, does anyone know the approximate cost, or what would be involved in, penalizing these pirates to the full extent of the law, and what you would get in return for the money, time, and effort spent? You can answer off list in order to not think the answers would make them feel that it is safe to pirate because nothing would be done about the rampant problem. Could it be possible for developers to get together and split the cost involved? Thanks. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
well if the piracy was international you would have some issue tracking it. On a serious note though do we really want to be like the big nasty companies, I mean we can but lets face it all it does is get more enemies all round the place. I know there are a few serious pirates that just do it because they can. Mostly its the consumer left in the cold by all the measures used to stop people pirating in the first places, higher prices, etc. talking like we are doing now surely is better than an all out war. Though to be honest we are used to war, flames hacking here and there, I happily don't do that sort of thing much anymore but its more curcimstances that I could get out rather than the fact I was able to get out on my own. in most cases I can now avoid most of the software I pirated with a few acceptions and those are not many now. Even so, enguaging with the user is the way foreward, finding out why and seperating the really bad guys that don't care to the guys that actually give a stuff I do actually give a stuff. I know everyone needs to make cash ofcause. And to be honest there is not 1 dev here well at least 1 current dev that I would actually say all your stuff is worth pirating but not buying because you are a crappy git. Ofcause everyone is small here. I have seen sighted devs get big and they become gits. greedy needing cash, and well the developer user connection goes. Once you loose that if I got caught by x developer that well sadly a lot of mainstreamers if they are big enough and don't seem to care about their users I am likely to think I don't actually care that much talking is the way and should always be the first choice. Heck this conversation is actually a good step toward understanding of the situation. At 02:08 PM 5/1/2013, you wrote: I would think so. I don't know how much money Draconis lost in possible sales when someone pirated Monkey Business and made it available to others. I seem to remember that there were a lot of downloads all of a sudden, though. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 8:48 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate? Hi Charles, Well, if a developer wants to prosecute a software pirate to the full extent of the law all they have to do is report it to their local prosecutor and report it as a theft. According to the 1997 No Electronic Theft Act a convicted software pirate can receive five years in jail and a $25 fine. That's if a developer wants to press criminal charges. If a developer wants to sue for damages the minimum is $15 per instance of illegal copyright infringement. So if Joe gives his key out to 10 people and the developer can track his key to all 10 people he can be sued for a total of $1.5 million in damages. Of course, as we've already established most blind people aren't rich so there is no way to get $1.5 million in damages from a pirate. The irony here is while most developers have been rather light handed about piracy if they wanted to get nasty they could really make their lives miserable. I think five years in prison and $25 in fines might discourage a few pirates you think? Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Speaking of piracy, does anyone know the approximate cost, or what would be involved in, penalizing these pirates to the full extent of the law, and what you would get in return for the money, time, and effort spent? You can answer off list in order to not think the answers would make them feel that it is safe to pirate because nothing would be done about the rampant problem. Could it be possible for developers to get together and split the cost involved? Thanks. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
I aggree with you there. And now the mpaa wants to screw over the blind on movies. Ofcause the big issue I have with some stuff dvds mainly is you have to basically pirate the dvds to listen to them on a computer and make an mp3. Eventually I think there should be a way when you buy dvds to get your electronic version somehow to listen to. but yeah. Back to games you will just have to decide what you want to do as far as how to register them key replacements, etc. The big guys seem to like to sue. No offence but this seems to be an american thing judging via news. Vary few suing things happen here. And ofcause there is mediation, I recon that if some of these people asked for an answer unless you were a black market hacker or seller they would probably get one. If you have no trust in your users well. If the piracy in the music industry has anything to tell me its that if I ever make a cd with my music I will not be signing through a label or at least I will make sure that any music can still be my own property. That way if something like that happens I can take the appropriate action rather having to just sue because its expected. anyway the big companies seem to take most of the cash for themselves and to be honest I can see the disadvantages all to readily. At 02:24 PM 5/1/2013, you wrote: There have been a number of developers who have tracked piracy rates in various ways, and the numbers I have are more from the mainstream and sighted indy game scene. It's not that everyone is an elite hacker, it's more that one or two elite hackers can produce a download that works for everyone with a single click. Once that download is out there, people share it. Hey man, can you skype me that download? As for prosecuting people, it costs more than it's worth, so nobody does it. Look at the MPAA and the record companies - they've tried making an example of downloaders, and it hasn't stopped music sharing If anything, it's just made them look bad. Suing your players will just make your players hate you. This is why I won't bother to produce any standalone games unless I intend to give them away. Anyone who thinks they can sell standalone games without strong 'phone home' server authorization and make money is fooling themselves. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Charles, Well, if a developer wants to prosecute a software pirate to the full extent of the law all they have to do is report it to their local prosecutor and report it as a theft. According to the 1997 No Electronic Theft Act a convicted software pirate can receive five years in jail and a $25 fine. That's if a developer wants to press criminal charges. If a developer wants to sue for damages the minimum is $15 per instance of illegal copyright infringement. So if Joe gives his key out to 10 people and the developer can track his key to all 10 people he can be sued for a total of $1.5 million in damages. Of course, as we've already established most blind people aren't rich so there is no way to get $1.5 million in damages from a pirate. The irony here is while most developers have been rather light handed about piracy if they wanted to get nasty they could really make their lives miserable. I think five years in prison and $25 in fines might discourage a few pirates you think? Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Speaking of piracy, does anyone know the approximate cost, or what would be involved in, penalizing these pirates to the full extent of the law, and what you would get in return for the money, time, and effort spent? You can answer off list in order to not think the answers would make them feel that it is safe to pirate because nothing would be done about the rampant problem. Could it be possible for developers to get together and split the cost involved? Thanks. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
It depends, charles. the big guys well they are the big corps, most of it doesn't go to the devs the devs are told by the bosses what to do. There is no point actually looking at it after that point, they don't care, in which case you do what is expected, its prity clear cut where you go because they don't care only the smaller devs actually care because they are directly in touch with users. At 02:57 PM 5/1/2013, you wrote: I, for one, would not feel bad at all toward a game developer who prosecutes game pirates. Piracy is thievery, and I would not get angry at police forces who arrest and prosecute burglars. It's the same idea and the same crime. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! - Original Message - From: Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2013 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate? There have been a number of developers who have tracked piracy rates in various ways, and the numbers I have are more from the mainstream and sighted indy game scene. It's not that everyone is an elite hacker, it's more that one or two elite hackers can produce a download that works for everyone with a single click. Once that download is out there, people share it. Hey man, can you skype me that download? As for prosecuting people, it costs more than it's worth, so nobody does it. Look at the MPAA and the record companies - they've tried making an example of downloaders, and it hasn't stopped music sharing If anything, it's just made them look bad. Suing your players will just make your players hate you. This is why I won't bother to produce any standalone games unless I intend to give them away. Anyone who thinks they can sell standalone games without strong 'phone home' server authorization and make money is fooling themselves. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:48 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Charles, Well, if a developer wants to prosecute a software pirate to the full extent of the law all they have to do is report it to their local prosecutor and report it as a theft. According to the 1997 No Electronic Theft Act a convicted software pirate can receive five years in jail and a $25 fine. That's if a developer wants to press criminal charges. If a developer wants to sue for damages the minimum is $15 per instance of illegal copyright infringement. So if Joe gives his key out to 10 people and the developer can track his key to all 10 people he can be sued for a total of $1.5 million in damages. Of course, as we've already established most blind people aren't rich so there is no way to get $1.5 million in damages from a pirate. The irony here is while most developers have been rather light handed about piracy if they wanted to get nasty they could really make their lives miserable. I think five years in prison and $25 in fines might discourage a few pirates you think? Cheers! On 4/30/13, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Speaking of piracy, does anyone know the approximate cost, or what would be involved in, penalizing these pirates to the full extent of the law, and what you would get in return for the money, time, and effort spent? You can answer off list in order to not think the answers would make them feel that it is safe to pirate because nothing would be done about the rampant problem. Could it be possible for developers to get together and split the cost involved? Thanks. -- If guns kill people, writing implements cause grammatical and spelling errors! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
Hi Stephen, In this particular case stupid is more like it. What happened is some person I shall leave nameless decided to send his name and product key for Monkey Business directly to the Audyssey list. Before anyone could blink an eye there were many members of this list downloading Monkey Business from Adora Entertainment as fast as they could get it. Said person was band and the demo was taken down, but not before several copies had been downloaded and illegally licensed. I'll never forget that incident as long as I live. Cheers! On 5/1/13, Stephen whocr...@internode.on.net wrote: unless someone invented a key generator for monkey business, it would be extremely foolish for someone to distribute the download link since their name and serial number would show up immediately. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Piracy rate?
Hi Enes, I don't know. The law I sited earlier, the No Electronic Theft Act, applies only to the United States and its citizens. I don't know what is in place for international cyber crimes. I assume they must have something in place. Cheers! On 4/30/13, enes enes.sari...@gmail.com wrote: hi thomas, doesn't that amount of jailtime and money change based on which country the dev is in and the user is in? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
