Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
Colin D Bennett wrote: If footprints are extended to allow text elements to be included, then I really hope that general polygons will be allowed too. plus arcs, two layers of silk, lines in copper, vias, mid layers, ... In short: The footprint format should allow everything you can do in a layout. I see no point in arbitrary restrictions. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
On Tue, 14 Dec 2010 12:09:45 +0100 Kai-Martin Knaak kn...@iqo.uni-hannover.de wrote: If footprints are extended to allow text elements to be included, then I really hope that general polygons will be allowed too. plus arcs, two layers of silk, lines in copper, vias, mid layers, ... In short: The footprint format should allow everything you can do in a layout. I see no point in arbitrary restrictions. That was mainly what I was wondering about in the first place. Shouldn't footprints be something like functions in programming? Or maybe slightly more similar to macros? John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
John Coppens wrote: I see no point in arbitrary restrictions. That was mainly what I was wondering about in the first place. Shouldn't footprints be something like functions in programming? Or maybe slightly more similar to macros? There is one caveat, though: Layouts can contain layers with arbitrary names and vastly different layer groups. Footprints should not be tied to a specific layer stack. Layers in the footprint have to be mapped according to the principle of least surprise. ---)kaimartin(-- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
Layers in the footprint have to be mapped according to the principle of least surprise. Last we talked of this, I mentioned symbolic layer tags vs physical layer tags. So footprints would have top/inner/bottom layers, boards would have 1(top)/2/3/4(bottom) layers. Yes, mapping everything is the tricky part. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
DJ Delorie d...@delorie.com writes: Layers in the footprint have to be mapped according to the principle of least surprise. Last we talked of this, I mentioned symbolic layer tags vs physical layer tags. So footprints would have top/inner/bottom layers, boards would have 1(top)/2/3/4(bottom) layers. How about 1(top),2(inner),3(top2),4(bot2),5(inner),6(bottom)? I.e., nothing special about (top) and (bottom), except that canonical footprint libraries should define (top)(inner)(bottom) layers. But I could define special footprints for edge connectors on rigid-flex boards, that have their pads on the flex layers (top2)(bot2), and no (top)(inner)(bottom) layers. What I'd really need is 1(top),2(inner),3(inner,top2),4(inner,bot2),5(inner),6(bottom)? to use standard footprints on the rigid part, but I guess, that's then up to my special library to fix. Yes, mapping everything is the tricky part. Do it very general, then it's less tricky. Right, John? :-) -- Stephan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
We talked about that. It's hard to do but not impossible :-) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
Armin Faltl wrote: The GUI might look up letters as footprints in the library and arrange them to yield human readable text. This sounds like recursive call of footprints to me No. In this scenario, the footprints do not contain real, editable text. What looks like text to humans is just lines in silk, or pads in copper to pcb. - what is the advantage to proper text rendering by the routines that do it for silk refdes? * No need to change the core engine of pcb * No change in footprint format As a consequence, it would be easier to code and implement. It has the same implications to footprint file format as any other rendering method. There is a difference: The rendering happens on footprint creation time. It is irreversible, meaning, the text cannot be edited after the fact. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: There is a difference: The rendering happens on footprint creation time. It is irreversible, meaning, the text cannot be edited after the fact. I think I got you now: you want to place one footprint per character or generate a footprint, that displays your text - before I thought you want to have a way, that char-footprints can somehow be referenced in another footprint. Still I believe, that extension of the footprint format to contain text is the way to go. Text can be rendered in pcb, so the routines must be there. Truetype fonts etc. discussed lately are a completely different issue ofcourse - but I can live with fonts as is. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
On Mon, 13 Dec 2010 23:28:25 +0100 Armin Faltl armin.fa...@aon.at wrote: Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: There is a difference: The rendering happens on footprint creation time. It is irreversible, meaning, the text cannot be edited after the fact. I think I got you now: you want to place one footprint per character or generate a footprint, that displays your text - before I thought you want to have a way, that char-footprints can somehow be referenced in another footprint. Still I believe, that extension of the footprint format to contain text is the way to go. If footprints are extended to allow text elements to be included, then I really hope that general polygons will be allowed too. That would allow users nearly unlimited flexibility, for instance: - Easy to create a trapezoidal pad (as requested on this list recently). - Simple to include text in arbitrary fonts using PostScript-pstoedit-pcb. This is decent substitute for real fonts in pcb for static text that rarely changes. Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
John Coppens wrote: I'm somewhat confused about the workings of PCB in this aspect - I suspect this has something to do with the complexity of rotation etc. Polygons are (usualy) defined by their corner points. Rotations of points are most often done by multiplying with a rotation matrix - so there is nothing special about general polygons and rotation compared to rectangles or triangles. (90° rotations of points can be done by coordinate flipping, but again nothing special) Just my 2 cents ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 8:23 PM, John Coppens j...@jcoppens.com wrote: On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 16:07:58 -0800 Colin D Bennett co...@gibibit.com wrote: Unfortunately this may not work well for footprints since I have found the best results from pstoedit to be achieved using the pcbfill output driver, which uses only polygons to render text, and PCB does not support polygons in footprints, even on the silk layer, apparently. I was looking at the source code, and I have the impression that polygons are possible in footprints, though only rectangular ones. I'm somewhat confused about the workings of PCB in this aspect - I suspect this has something to do with the complexity of rotation etc. Probably someone is needed to code complex polygon rotations... John The code for rotations is there in FreeRotateBuffer(). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotation_matrix Regards, Mark markra...@gmail -- Mark Rages, Engineer Midwest Telecine LLC markra...@midwesttelecine.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
kai-martin knaak wrote: John Coppens wrote: Suggestions? Or maybe an estimate on how difficult it'd be for an average programmer to add? If the text in footprints should behave like any other text, I'd say pretty hard. You'd have to adapt many places where footprints get rendered. If the font is the 'monoline' type generally used in pcb, the redition can be taken from there and is sort of a 10-liner in OpenGL anyway. I addition, the footprint file format would have to be expanded accordingly. And the format change would have to be accepted by the devs. sure The GUI might look up letters as footprints in the library and arrange them to yield human readable text. This sounds like recursive call of footprints to me - what is the advantage to proper text rendering by the routines that do it for silk refdes? It has the same implications to footprint file format as any other rendering method. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 11:12:22 +0100 kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: A less ambitious way to achieve text in footprints would dissolve letters into lines and add them to the footprint like you would with ordinary lines. In silk they stay straight forward lines. In copper they'd become SMD pads with the same name. Pads might optionally be covered with solder mask. The GUI might look up letters as footprints in the library and arrange them to yield human readable text. Not a bad idea... It could be a temporary solution, I guess. I did notice that a PCB file includes the entire font if a text is written anywhere on the board. How is this handled with, eg. refdes in elements? Does this also trigger inclusion of the font? John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
On Thu, 9 Dec 2010 15:35:23 -0300 John Coppens j...@jcoppens.com wrote: I'd like to put text into PCB elements (in this case to label pins of a connector on the silk screen), but that doesn't seem possible... Each time I try to add text to an element, it just disappears. I checked the specs. I know I could do it manually at board design time, but I use this connector regularly, and would rather have the text at the pins be printed automatically. I suspect this would be welcome to mark C, B, E in transistors, K/A in diodes, and other applications. I have recently found an easy and flexible way of getting text and arbitrary graphics into PCB by creating a drawing in Inkscape with my text, then exporting to PostScript, using the 'pstoedit' program to convert to a pcb-format file where the Inkscape-created drawing is rendered with pcb polygons and lines. It is a great way of getting any sort of artwork or text onto the board. Unfortunately this may not work well for footprints since I have found the best results from pstoedit to be achieved using the pcbfill output driver, which uses only polygons to render text, and PCB does not support polygons in footprints, even on the silk layer, apparently. Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 16:07:58 -0800 Colin D Bennett co...@gibibit.com wrote: Unfortunately this may not work well for footprints since I have found the best results from pstoedit to be achieved using the pcbfill output driver, which uses only polygons to render text, and PCB does not support polygons in footprints, even on the silk layer, apparently. I was looking at the source code, and I have the impression that polygons are possible in footprints, though only rectangular ones. I'm somewhat confused about the workings of PCB in this aspect - I suspect this has something to do with the complexity of rotation etc. Probably someone is needed to code complex polygon rotations... John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
On Fri, 10 Dec 2010 23:23:29 -0300 John Coppens j...@jcoppens.com wrote: Probably someone is needed to code complex polygon rotations... Sorry - that may not have come out as intended... This wasn't meant as criticism... John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
Hello all. I seem to remember I read about this a time ago, but me and google can't seem to find any reference: I'd like to put text into PCB elements (in this case to label pins of a connector on the silk screen), but that doesn't seem possible... Each time I try to add text to an element, it just disappears. I checked the specs. I know I could do it manually at board design time, but I use this connector regularly, and would rather have the text at the pins be printed automatically. I suspect this would be welcome to mark C, B, E in transistors, K/A in diodes, and other applications. Suggestions? Or maybe an estimate on how difficult it'd be for an average programmer to add? John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Text in PCB elements
The current Element syntax doesn't allow for extra text in it, sorry. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
