Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
On Nov 26, 2010, at 5:06 AM, Rick Collins wrote: > At 05:05 PM 11/25/2010, you wrote: >> On Nov 25, 2010, at 4:05 PM, Rick Collins wrote: >> >> > At 05:01 AM 11/25/2010, you wrote: >> >>> I am missing the reason you must mirror the footprints, however. >> >>> Aren't the pins still in the same orientation they would be with the >> >>> standard footprint? Since your DIP packages are mounted in the >> >>> "normal-side-up" orientation, it seems the pins should be in the right >> >>> order, unless you have placed the IC on the "component" side of the >> >>> board in pcb... ? >> >> >> >> Yes, the component is at the same position, but traces are on the >> >> opposite side of board so something must be mirrored. SMD traces are at >> >> component layer. Through hole components have traces on solder layer. Or >> >> both of them? Well, you confused me now :-) Maybe I did not have to >> >> mirror the footprints. >> >> >> >> regards, >> >> Jan >> > >> > >> > Yes, of course you have to mirror the ICs that you are changing from >> > through hole mount to surface mount. As you say they are on the opposite >> > side of the board from the pads, so now the pads need to be mirrored, >> > unless the software is capable of moving the pads from one layer to the >> > other without changing how they look on the screen. But normally it >> > treats this as moving the part from one side to the other and you have to >> > mirror the footprint to keep pin one oriented correctly. >> > >> > Heck, if it wasn't needed to mirror the footprint, it wouldn't work >> > correctly after you do mirror it. >> > >> > Rick >> >> Rick, >> Carefully look at an so8 and a dip 8 >> >> And really explain why you need to mirror a footprint. >> >> Because the top side of a dip footprint is identical pinout as so8. (At half >> of the pitch). Just remove the bottom pads. >> >> >> Another way to think of it, if you took an dip package and made it into a >> gullwing and soldered it to the dip footprint. You would have vias through >> the board to that "mirrored" footprint so that mirrored footprint was put >> on the wrong side of the board and you had to move it through the layers. > > Ok, I see that. I was thinking that if you designed a single sided board the > component footprint pads would only be on the bottom so that when you flipped > them to the top for the surface mount part, they would now be the wrong > orientation. I see what you are saying. However, if you use an auto router, > how do you tell it to ignore the bottom pads? > > I guess you can edit the footprint to remove the bottom pads, just leaving > the top pads, but I wouldn't find it any harder to design a footprint from > scratch that is actually intended for surface mount work. I think the round > pad of a through hole part is not the best design for a surface mount part > which should have oblong pads. But I guess this is all hand soldered and is > likely hobby stuff, so it doesn't matter as much since it is labor intensive > anyway. > It was a thought experiment not an implementation. If your doing a single sided board put the surface mount components on the same side as the copper traces. In pcb you can flip the board to place components on the other side of the board. Steve > Rick > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: > Hi. > I just hit a legitimate use case for mirrored footprints: Memory chips frequently come in mirrored/not-mirrored versions, needing mirrored foot prints to make high density memory cards. -- http://blog.softwaresafety.net/ http://www.designer-iii.com/ http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
Rick Collins wrote: > However, if you use an auto router, how do you tell it to > ignore the bottom pads? switch off the bottom layer while auto routing. > I guess you can edit the footprint to remove the bottom pads, just > leaving the top pads, In pcb thru hole pads are complex objects called "pins". These are hard coded to be holes with the same annulus on every copper layer. So you can't selectively remove the bottom pads from a thru hole pin. Currently, the notion of customizable pad stacks is unknown to pcb. Efforts to introduce them would surely be welcome by many users. ---<)kaiamrtin(>--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmk&op=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
At 05:05 PM 11/25/2010, you wrote: On Nov 25, 2010, at 4:05 PM, Rick Collins wrote: > At 05:01 AM 11/25/2010, you wrote: >>> I am missing the reason you must mirror the footprints, however. >>> Aren't the pins still in the same orientation they would be with the >>> standard footprint? Since your DIP packages are mounted in the >>> "normal-side-up" orientation, it seems the pins should be in the right >>> order, unless you have placed the IC on the "component" side of the >>> board in pcb... ? >> >> Yes, the component is at the same position, but traces are on the opposite side of board so something must be mirrored. SMD traces are at component layer. Through hole components have traces on solder layer. Or both of them? Well, you confused me now :-) Maybe I did not have to mirror the footprints. >> >> regards, >> Jan > > > Yes, of course you have to mirror the ICs that you are changing from through hole mount to surface mount. As you say they are on the opposite side of the board from the pads, so now the pads need to be mirrored, unless the software is capable of moving the pads from one layer to the other without changing how they look on the screen. But normally it treats this as moving the part from one side to the other and you have to mirror the footprint to keep pin one oriented correctly. > > Heck, if it wasn't needed to mirror the footprint, it wouldn't work correctly after you do mirror it. > > Rick Rick, Carefully look at an so8 and a dip 8 And really explain why you need to mirror a footprint. Because the top side of a dip footprint is identical pinout as so8. (At half of the pitch). Just remove the bottom pads. Another way to think of it, if you took an dip package and made it into a gullwing and soldered it to the dip footprint. You would have vias through the board to that "mirrored" footprint so that mirrored footprint was put on the wrong side of the board and you had to move it through the layers. Ok, I see that. I was thinking that if you designed a single sided board the component footprint pads would only be on the bottom so that when you flipped them to the top for the surface mount part, they would now be the wrong orientation. I see what you are saying. However, if you use an auto router, how do you tell it to ignore the bottom pads? I guess you can edit the footprint to remove the bottom pads, just leaving the top pads, but I wouldn't find it any harder to design a footprint from scratch that is actually intended for surface mount work. I think the round pad of a through hole part is not the best design for a surface mount part which should have oblong pads. But I guess this is all hand soldered and is likely hobby stuff, so it doesn't matter as much since it is labor intensive anyway. Rick ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
Steven Michalske wrote: > As the parts are mounted top side towered the board. I do > agree that they should be a externally mirrored footprint > though. Still, my tool should not try to prevent me from doing stupid things or play dirty tricks. ---<)kaimartin(>--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
On Nov 25, 2010, at 4:05 PM, Rick Collins wrote: > At 05:01 AM 11/25/2010, you wrote: >>> I am missing the reason you must mirror the footprints, however. >>> Aren't the pins still in the same orientation they would be with the >>> standard footprint? Since your DIP packages are mounted in the >>> "normal-side-up" orientation, it seems the pins should be in the right >>> order, unless you have placed the IC on the "component" side of the >>> board in pcb... ? >> >> Yes, the component is at the same position, but traces are on the opposite >> side of board so something must be mirrored. SMD traces are at component >> layer. Through hole components have traces on solder layer. Or both of them? >> Well, you confused me now :-) Maybe I did not have to mirror the footprints. >> >> regards, >> Jan > > > Yes, of course you have to mirror the ICs that you are changing from through > hole mount to surface mount. As you say they are on the opposite side of the > board from the pads, so now the pads need to be mirrored, unless the software > is capable of moving the pads from one layer to the other without changing > how they look on the screen. But normally it treats this as moving the part > from one side to the other and you have to mirror the footprint to keep pin > one oriented correctly. > > Heck, if it wasn't needed to mirror the footprint, it wouldn't work correctly > after you do mirror it. > > Rick Rick, Carefully look at an so8 and a dip 8 And really explain why you need to mirror a footprint. Because the top side of a dip footprint is identical pinout as so8. (At half of the pitch). Just remove the bottom pads. Another way to think of it, if you took an dip package and made it into a gullwing and soldered it to the dip footprint. You would have vias through the board to that "mirrored" footprint so that mirrored footprint was put on the wrong side of the board and you had to move it through the layers. Steve > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
At 05:01 AM 11/25/2010, you wrote: I am missing the reason you must mirror the footprints, however. Aren't the pins still in the same orientation they would be with the standard footprint? Since your DIP packages are mounted in the "normal-side-up" orientation, it seems the pins should be in the right order, unless you have placed the IC on the "component" side of the board in pcb... ? Yes, the component is at the same position, but traces are on the opposite side of board so something must be mirrored. SMD traces are at component layer. Through hole components have traces on solder layer. Or both of them? Well, you confused me now :-) Maybe I did not have to mirror the footprints. regards, Jan Yes, of course you have to mirror the ICs that you are changing from through hole mount to surface mount. As you say they are on the opposite side of the board from the pads, so now the pads need to be mirrored, unless the software is capable of moving the pads from one layer to the other without changing how they look on the screen. But normally it treats this as moving the part from one side to the other and you have to mirror the footprint to keep pin one oriented correctly. Heck, if it wasn't needed to mirror the footprint, it wouldn't work correctly after you do mirror it. Rick ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
On Nov 25, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Jan Martinek wrote: >> I am missing the reason you must mirror the footprints, however. >> Aren't the pins still in the same orientation they would be with the >> standard footprint? Since your DIP packages are mounted in the >> "normal-side-up" orientation, it seems the pins should be in the right >> order, unless you have placed the IC on the "component" side of the >> board in pcb... ? >> > > Yes, the component is at the same position, but traces are on the opposite > side of board so something must be mirrored. SMD traces are at component > layer. Through hole components have traces on solder layer. Or both of them? > Well, you confused me now :-) Maybe I did not have to mirror the footprints. > You did not have to mirror the footprints. Think of it as side A and side B. You could have placed the parts on the solder side. The tab key switches the side you are working on. But the "dead bug" parts do need mirroring of the footprints. As the parts are mounted top side towered the board. I do agree that they should be a externally mirrored footprint though. Steve > regards, > Jan > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
I am missing the reason you must mirror the footprints, however. Aren't the pins still in the same orientation they would be with the standard footprint? Since your DIP packages are mounted in the "normal-side-up" orientation, it seems the pins should be in the right order, unless you have placed the IC on the "component" side of the board in pcb... ? Yes, the component is at the same position, but traces are on the opposite side of board so something must be mirrored. SMD traces are at component layer. Through hole components have traces on solder layer. Or both of them? Well, you confused me now :-) Maybe I did not have to mirror the footprints. regards, Jan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 17:17:47 +0100 Jan Martinek wrote: > On 11/24/2010 05:13 PM, Jan Martinek wrote: > > On 11/23/2010 03:52 PM, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: > >> Hi. > >> I just hit a legitimate use case for mirrored footprints: > >> A layout sketch for dead-bug-prototyping. That is, glue the > >> component with its back to the board and do the wires manually. > >> However, there seems > >> to be no way to mirror a footprint. > >> > > > > Hi, > > > > I recently made something similar - I did not want do drill holes > > so I made SMD's out of common DIP package by bending legs. So I > > also needed mirrored footprints. In this directory > > > > http://fyzika.fce.vutbr.cz/pub/ > > > Oh, sorry, wrong link. This one is correct: > > http://fyzika.fce.vutbr.cz/pub/bentlegs/ Very clever! I agree that drilling holes (and inserting vias) is the worst part of the homemade PCB process. I did a similar through-hole to SMD conversion with a through-hole 4-pin SPDT momentary tactile pushbutton switch, which was very easy to do by simply bending each pin out to a 90 degree angle. (Though through-hole mounting probably provides better mechanical strength, I think 4 pins on a small switch pressed vertically should do an adequate job of supporting the switch.) I am missing the reason you must mirror the footprints, however. Aren't the pins still in the same orientation they would be with the standard footprint? Since your DIP packages are mounted in the "normal-side-up" orientation, it seems the pins should be in the right order, unless you have placed the IC on the "component" side of the board in pcb... ? Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
Jan Martinek wrote: > http://fyzika.fce.vutbr.cz/pub/bentlegs/ Ah! Toporouter in action! :-) ---<)kaimartin(>--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmk&op=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
On 11/24/2010 05:13 PM, Jan Martinek wrote: On 11/23/2010 03:52 PM, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Hi. I just hit a legitimate use case for mirrored footprints: A layout sketch for dead-bug-prototyping. That is, glue the component with its back to the board and do the wires manually. However, there seems to be no way to mirror a footprint. Hi, I recently made something similar - I did not want do drill holes so I made SMD's out of common DIP package by bending legs. So I also needed mirrored footprints. In this directory http://fyzika.fce.vutbr.cz/pub/ Oh, sorry, wrong link. This one is correct: http://fyzika.fce.vutbr.cz/pub/bentlegs/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
On 11/23/2010 03:52 PM, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Hi. I just hit a legitimate use case for mirrored footprints: A layout sketch for dead-bug-prototyping. That is, glue the component with its back to the board and do the wires manually. However, there seems to be no way to mirror a footprint. Hi, I recently made something similar - I did not want do drill holes so I made SMD's out of common DIP package by bending legs. So I also needed mirrored footprints. In this directory http://fyzika.fce.vutbr.cz/pub/ there are photos as well as a python script which generates the footprints. But it is workaround only. It would be fine to have such option for all footprints. Regards, Jan Martinek ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
Kai-Martin Knaak writes: > Hi. > I just hit a legitimate use case for mirrored footprints: > A layout sketch for dead-bug-prototyping. That is, glue the component > with its back to the board and do the wires manually. However, there seems > to be no way to mirror a footprint. I guess it is safest to make a mirrored footprint, thus clearly labeln in the name. Anything else will lead to inevitable desaster down the road, when a board may end up with a mirrored footprint acidentally. To make a mirrored footprint in the GUI is sufficiently easy. -- Stephan Böttcher FAX: +49-431-880-3968 Extraterrestrische PhysikTel: +49-431-880-2508 I.f.Exp.u.Angew.Physik mailto:boettc...@physik.uni-kiel.de Leibnizstr. 11, 24118 Kiel, Germany ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: mirrored footprint
Hi. I just hit a legitimate use case for mirrored footprints: A layout sketch for dead-bug-prototyping. That is, glue the component with its back to the board and do the wires manually. However, there seems to be no way to mirror a footprint. For the moment I'll work-around with components moved to the back of the board. But an "official way to do this kind of layout would be welcome. Would it be difficult to implement a mirror-action? Or is it already there, but not accessible through the GUI? Some kind of semi documented action? ---<)kaimartin(>--- PS: An official mirror action would be nice-to-have for text, too. Text on bottom sometimes needs fighting before it renders correctly. Some combinations of rotated/mirrored board view don't mix well with text insertion. -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmk&op=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
