Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
Gene Heskett wrote: On Tuesday 31 March 2009, DJ Delorie wrote: Hey, they have a 4.5 diamond blade that will fit in my table saw, too. They don't say how wide it is, though.I think those are meant for sawing concrete or ceramic tiles, so they are a good fat 3/32 wide, and the ones I have wobble that to an eighth inch at least. The diamond blade that I have is also about that thick, but it doesn't wobble - you might have a problem with your arbor. A cheap tile saw (~$65 at a hardware store) wouldn't be a bad idea - the water keeps down the dust - just so long as you have sufficient intra-panel clearance for the saw's kerf. -Ethan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
On Wednesday 01 April 2009, Ethan Swint wrote: Gene Heskett wrote: On Tuesday 31 March 2009, DJ Delorie wrote: Hey, they have a 4.5 diamond blade that will fit in my table saw, too. They don't say how wide it is, though.I think those are meant for sawing concrete or ceramic tiles, so they are a good fat 3/32 wide, and the ones I have wobble that to an eighth inch at least. The diamond blade that I have is also about that thick, but it doesn't wobble - you might have a problem with your arbor. A cheap tile saw (~$65 at a hardware store) wouldn't be a bad idea - the water keeps down the dust - just so long as you have sufficient intra-panel clearance for the saw's kerf. I made the arbor, seating face against which the blade rests, and the 1/2 shank were all done on a small lathe without touching the chuck jaws. I've a small dial indicator that has about .001 resolution, and it saw no wiggle, none. Ell Cheapo chinese blades, I only have about 5 bucks each in a pair of them. I intended to use them to sharpen carbide bits, but the diamonds were so coarse they actually chipped the carbide. I was looking for edge linear speed since my spindle is only 2500 revs wide open. So now I use that new quick change dremel arbor in a 1/8 collet, with about a 1.75 diameter diamond saw in it, that works fairly well, just slow when using a don't wake the child kiss touch. Sorta off topic: I have a rotary table for the A axis too, and was going to see if I could freshen the edges of some of my saw blades from the woodshop, but the first 10 Hitachi thin kerf blade I laid on the jig to drill holes in near the hub so I could bolt it to the t-slots of the tables face educated me quickly. 4, 1/4 decent quality drill bits later, I have dimples about 3/32 diameter in the blade. Its going to take a carbide bit to drill that chrome plated Hitachi steel! If anybody has a better idea, yelp. They have to be draw blood sharp if you are going to get clean cuts without burning in cherry. So far, only Hitachi and Avanti blades are that sharp still in the blisterpack at Lowes. Bring money of course, a 60 tooth 12 blade for the chop saw is about $70. 10 40 tooth for the table saw is about $40. -Ethan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Kaufman's Law: A policy is a restrictive document to prevent a recurrence of a single incident, in which that incident is never mentioned. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
Darrell, Thanks for taking those pictures and posting them. If I had a dremel I would have tried that today. I used my hacksaw, saw-horse, dust-mask and my official DJ magnifiers outside in the driveway this morning. (* jcl *) On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Darrell Harmon dlhar...@dlharmon.com wrote: I uploaded a few here: http://dlharmon.com/~dlharmon/pcbrouter/ I included 800x600 copies (.resized.JPG) as well as the orignals (approx 6MB each). IMG_2302.JPG shows the result. The plastic piece that the Dremel tool screws into came out of the circle cutting tool that came with the Dremel tool. Yes, those are drill bits as shims, and that is a broken end mill (these things are fragile). I got about 60 inches with one tool. The cut was getting worse toward the end. It seems to do better on just FR4 with all the copper etched away. I cut through one board with copper on all 4 layers and it was very slow. I have thought of trying to get a 30 degree v score tool for this. Darrell Harmon On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 6:47 PM, John Luciani jluci...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Darrell Harmon dlhar...@dlharmon.com wrote: I recently ordered a batch of 4 layer boards from 66each and was able to get 7 different boards on the panel. I made a router table from my Dremel tool from MDF and used an 0.031 carbide end mill set to cut about half way through the board. After routing both sides, the edges I routed are hard to tell from the ones Advanced Circuits routed. The FR4 dust was bad, so you may want to wear a mask if you do it this way. Do you have a picture of your setup? Any idea how many linear inches you get per end mill? (* jcl *) -- You can't create open hardware with closed EDA tools. http://www.luciani.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user -- You can't create open hardware with closed EDA tools. http://www.luciani.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
DJ Delorie wrote: Just got a box of panels from Advanced Circuits. Five panels, ten boards per panel (two each powermeter, usb-gpio pod, and three pod modules - ten sets of boards total). Joy! Unfortunately, I have no way of separating them into individual boards yet. Sadness! But I do have a 60 degree v-scoring bit for my router table. Joy! Last time I used it, the pcbs were too flexible for the big hole the table had around the bit. Sadness! I was thinking of taking an old 7 table saw blade and re-grinding it to a 60 degree point. I can make a zero-clearance insert for it, to ensure correct cuts. Joy! However, I don't have any of the parts for the boards yet. Sadness! But now I get to go through the BOMs, figure out the best parts to use, put together a digikey order, come up with some hobby money, and wait for it all to arrive. Joy! No, wait... sadness? Crap. Don't forget the perforations, or routed grooves next time :-) There should be a DRC check to prevent that kind of slip. Steve ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
AP Circuits recommended 35mil holes on 50 mil centers to simulate a score line in the past. Oh sure, now he tells me ;-) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
On Tue, 2009-03-31 at 21:18 -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: Just got a box of panels from Advanced Circuits. Five panels, ten boards per panel (two each powermeter, usb-gpio pod, and three pod modules - ten sets of boards total). Joy! Unfortunately, I have no way of separating them into individual boards yet. Sadness! I think you can score them with a utility knife on both sides and snap them apart. Run it along a straight edge, to make the line straight. Do it a number of times to make the scoring deep. Put on edge of table and it should break apart along the line. Kip -- Kipton Moravec AE5IB .- . . .. -... == Four Way Test Is it the Truth? Is it Fair to all concerned? Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships? Will it be Beneficial to all concerned? - Herbert J Taylor (1932) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
I think you can score them with a utility knife on both sides and snap them apart. I've tried that before with no luck. The boards are just too thick to be able to score reliably and deeply enough. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
DJ Delorie wrote: I think you can score them with a utility knife on both sides and snap them apart. I've tried that before with no luck. The boards are just too thick to be able to score reliably and deeply enough. Yeah, its tough to do yourself. Did you just forget to put the necessary grooving in your drill info, or haven't you crossed that bridge before? Some people still use a row of holes as a snap-off line, but grooving with a router is pretty much the norm now. Steve ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
Yeah, its tough to do yourself. Did you just forget to put the necessary grooving in your drill info, or haven't you crossed that bridge before? 33each doesn't allow v-scoring or tab routing. I did pay extra for multiple parts though, I figured an extra $50 to get 50 boards instead of 5 was a good deal. Some people still use a row of holes as a snap-off line, but grooving with a router is pretty much the norm now. I tried that with my wood router, but it didn't work so well. On the Joy side of the equation, I just finished regrinding a circular saw blade for v-scoring, and it worked like a charm. I took an old plywood blade (7-1/4 diam, teeth about 3/16 apart) and did an initial grind with my angle grinder, then a final grind with a coarse/fine grit stone. Note: the blade was mounted backwards, so the teeth would not cut anything (nor be damaged by the process), but it was running. I used a 30-60-90 triangle to gauge the angle. GENTLE pressure is all that's needed, and it took less than a total of a minute of grinding to get those tiny points where I wanted. After fine tuning the height to cut about 1/3 of the way through each side, the board easily snapped in two along the cuts. No evidence of any burning, either. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 03:24:38PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: On the Joy side of the equation, I just finished regrinding a circular saw blade for v-scoring, and it worked like a charm. I took an old plywood blade (7-1/4 diam, teeth about 3/16 apart) and did an initial grind with my angle grinder, then a final grind with a coarse/fine grit stone. Note: the blade was mounted backwards, so the teeth would not cut anything (nor be damaged by the process), but it was running. Wait, you mounted a blade in a table saw (backwards) and then ran the table saw and worked the blade with an angle grinder? You have balls of steel! -- Ben Jackson AD7GD b...@ben.com http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
Wait, you mounted a blade in a table saw (backwards) and then ran the table saw and worked the blade with an angle grinder? Yes. With full safety gear and my paranoid dial set to 11. It turned out to be quite a letdown, though. It went smoothly with no indications of the types of instabilities or panic I anticipated. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
Future warning, don't do that to an old carbide tipped blade. The braising holding on the carbide might be a touch brittle, and cause a few teeth to launch. Welcome to the world of toolmaking :-) on a side note, a diamond saw blade probably wouldn't do what you want. They are not designed for sharp points. there usually diamond flake imbedded into a compound that rubs away to expose new bits of dust. so a sharp point would be quickly rounded off. On Apr 1, 2009, at 12:53 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: Wait, you mounted a blade in a table saw (backwards) and then ran the table saw and worked the blade with an angle grinder? Yes. With full safety gear and my paranoid dial set to 11. It turned out to be quite a letdown, though. It went smoothly with no indications of the types of instabilities or panic I anticipated. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
Future warning, don't do that to an old carbide tipped blade. I purposely avoided the carbide blades, for exactly that reason. on a side note, a diamond saw blade probably wouldn't do what you want. They are not designed for sharp points. Right, but if they're thin enough, I could just cut the FR4. Carbide would dull too quickly. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
Why didn't you want to use your scroll saw? (* jcl *) -- You can't create open hardware with closed EDA tools. http://www.luciani.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
DJ Delorie wrote: I think you can score them with a utility knife on both sides and snap them apart. I've tried that before with no luck. The boards are just too thick to be able to score reliably and deeply enough. That old wives tale comes from the days when paper/phenolic boards where the norm. Does not work on FR4 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
Why didn't you want to use your scroll saw? * It would take a long time to make all those cuts (130 inches total). * I would go through many blades. * The edges wouldn't be that straight. I've thought of getting carbide scroll saw blades, but you'd also want dual-cut blades to clean up the underside edge. That means specialty blades, which are expensive, and they'd still dull pretty quickly. The soldering challenge boards were only 99 inches of cutting and I recall not liking using the scroll saw for them. This is what fricken lasers are for :-) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 7:32 PM, DJ Delorie d...@delorie.com wrote: Why didn't you want to use your scroll saw? The soldering challenge boards were only 99 inches of cutting and I recall not liking using the scroll saw for them. Do you remember apx how many blades you went through? I was thinking of getting a shear. If it works well enough it could pay for itself pretty quickly. (* jcl *) -- You can't create open hardware with closed EDA tools. http://www.luciani.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
I recently ordered a batch of 4 layer boards from 66each and was able to get 7 different boards on the panel. I made a router table from my Dremel tool from MDF and used an 0.031 carbide end mill set to cut about half way through the board. After routing both sides, the edges I routed are hard to tell from the ones Advanced Circuits routed. The FR4 dust was bad, so you may want to wear a mask if you do it this way. Darrell Harmon On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 8:18 PM, DJ Delorie d...@delorie.com wrote: Just got a box of panels from Advanced Circuits. Five panels, ten boards per panel (two each powermeter, usb-gpio pod, and three pod modules - ten sets of boards total). Joy! Unfortunately, I have no way of separating them into individual boards yet. Sadness! But I do have a 60 degree v-scoring bit for my router table. Joy! Last time I used it, the pcbs were too flexible for the big hole the table had around the bit. Sadness! I was thinking of taking an old 7 table saw blade and re-grinding it to a 60 degree point. I can make a zero-clearance insert for it, to ensure correct cuts. Joy! However, I don't have any of the parts for the boards yet. Sadness! But now I get to go through the BOMs, figure out the best parts to use, put together a digikey order, come up with some hobby money, and wait for it all to arrive. Joy! No, wait... sadness? Crap. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
Do you remember apx how many blades you went through? I recall that each blade was good for about 20 inches. You can extend that if you put a piece of plywood under the pcb, letting you use 2 (or even 3) different parts of the blade. I was thinking of getting a shear. If it works well enough it could pay for itself pretty quickly. This is the most common model on Homebrew_PCBs: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90757 Some folks get this bigger one instead: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=5907 but I've been drooling over this intermediate one, which also has a slip roller: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Sheet-Metal-Machine-12-/G6089 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 7:43 PM, Darrell Harmon dlhar...@dlharmon.com wrote: I recently ordered a batch of 4 layer boards from 66each and was able to get 7 different boards on the panel. I made a router table from my Dremel tool from MDF and used an 0.031 carbide end mill set to cut about half way through the board. After routing both sides, the edges I routed are hard to tell from the ones Advanced Circuits routed. The FR4 dust was bad, so you may want to wear a mask if you do it this way. Do you have a picture of your setup? Any idea how many linear inches you get per end mill? (* jcl *) -- You can't create open hardware with closed EDA tools. http://www.luciani.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
-Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of DJ Delorie Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 7:45 PM To: geda-user@moria.seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards ... but I've been drooling over this intermediate one, which also has a slip roller: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Sheet-Metal-Machine-12-/G6089 What is a slip roller? I don't recall that term from my high school shop class... D ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
What is a slip roller? I don't recall that term from my high school shop class... It's for curving metal - tubes, wire circles, etc. http://www.grizzly.com/products/36-Slip-Roll-22-Gauge/G5770 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
On Apr 1, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Darrell Harmon wrote: FR4 dust was bad, so you may want to wear a mask if you do it this way. put your shop vac pulling the dust away from the side of the dremel ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
http://www.t-tech.com/order/product.asp?sectionid=1catid=71productid=580 Grizzly has one similar to that too, but that type as no brake or slip roll. And it's quite a bit more expensive than the other models! ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
DJ Delorie wrote: Just got a box of panels from Advanced Circuits. Five panels, ten boards per panel (two each powermeter, usb-gpio pod, and three pod modules - ten sets of boards total). Joy! Unfortunately, I have no way of separating them into individual boards yet. Sadness! But I do have a 60 degree v-scoring bit for my router table. Joy! Last time I used it, the pcbs were too flexible for the big hole the table had around the bit. Sadness! I was thinking of taking an old 7 table saw blade and re-grinding it to a 60 degree point. I can make a zero-clearance insert for it, to ensure correct cuts. Joy! However, I don't have any of the parts for the boards yet. Sadness! But now I get to go through the BOMs, figure out the best parts to use, put together a digikey order, come up with some hobby money, and wait for it all to arrive. Joy! No, wait... sadness? Crap. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user DJ, You don't say, but I assume you have .062 or thinner G10 panels. Do you know anyone with a sheet metal shear? I used that in the past, although the glass fiber is a bit hard on the shear. On the other hand, there is a lot less fiberglass/copper/plastic dust than a saw or router bit. Harbor Freight has a small 30 shear that should be big enough for 15 panels. It is a few hundred dollars to buy it, however. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=5907 If you are intent on sawing, how about a Dremel cutoff disk? That should be low-cost. Wear a dust mask, though. Girvin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
Do you know anyone with a sheet metal shear? I had my eye on either the small 8 HF shear or a slightly larger 12 Grizzly one. I have a friend who is a metalworker, too, and yes, I was planning on asking him if he had one. By panel I meant 6x10, not the 14x14 panels the fab uses. If you are intent on sawing, how about a Dremel cutoff disk? I'd rather not - that's a lot of cutting for a somewhat fragile disk. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
DJ Delorie wrote: If you are intent on sawing, how about a Dremel cutoff disk? I'd rather not - that's a lot of cutting for a somewhat fragile disk. HF sells diamond encrusted discs 1 inch dia. that fit dremel chucks. I use them to resharpen carbide tipped saw blades while on the saw. John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
Hey, they have a 4.5 diamond blade that will fit in my table saw, too. They don't say how wide it is, though. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: the joy and sadness of new boards
On Tuesday 31 March 2009, DJ Delorie wrote: Do you know anyone with a sheet metal shear? I had my eye on either the small 8 HF shear or a slightly larger 12 Grizzly one. I have a friend who is a metalworker, too, and yes, I was planning on asking him if he had one. By panel I meant 6x10, not the 14x14 panels the fab uses. If you are intent on sawing, how about a Dremel cutoff disk? I'd rather not - that's a lot of cutting for a somewhat fragile disk. Dremel now has a 1.5 or slightly bigger diamond wheel that fits the quick change arbor. Its a bit pricy at about a 20 dollar bill, but its the closest I've come to a do anything wheel yet. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Do not read this fortune under penalty of law. Violators will be prosecuted. (Penal Code sec. 2.3.2 (II.a.)) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
