Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
This sounds really interesting - it would be good to have an Apache Wave project. We already have an implementation of the Wave Gadget API in Wookie (and I contributed a new one recently in Node.js) so there could be some useful crossover there. On 24 Nov 2010, at 07:32, Christian Grobmeier wrote: > Would love to see Google Wave at Apache. I was very excited when > Google once announced it. > > About trademark: there was an Adobe Wave before Google Wave announced > its service. I am not afraid of any trademark issues, when there is an > Apache Wave. > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:56 AM, Soren Lassen wrote: >> I work for Google and I speak on the behalf of the Google Wave team. I >> can assure you that Google supports the Apache Wave proposal. We >> always wanted to transfer ownership of the open source code to the >> developer community and, with the discontinuation of development of >> Google Wave as a standalone product, we accelerated our efforts to >> spin this out in order to bring certainty to the developer community. >> Apache Wave should stand on its own without concern for Google's >> product strategies or priorities. >> >> Nonetheless, please note that Google is looking at ways to continue >> and extend wave technology in other Google products, specifically ways >> for users to access waves through Google Docs. But Google only retains >> the rights to the trademark "GOOGLE WAVE" and the wave design logo. >> Hopefully, Google will become one of many happy customers of Apache >> Wave. >> >> Soren >> >> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Ralph Goers >> wrote: >>> >>> On Nov 23, 2010, at 6:06 PM, Greg Stein wrote: >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 20:47, Ralph Goers wrote: > ... > OK - Have they explicitly OK'd Apache Wave? While Apache Wave would > certainly be unique to Apache, if Google intends to keep using Google > Wave (and Wave as a shorthand) this would get very confusing. Don't you think that by proposing Wave to the Incubator that Google has OK'd this? >>> >>> I don't work for Google and don't know the people proposing this so no, I >>> have no idea whether Google has OK'd this. This is no different than >>> someone taking an Apache project out of the Attic and starting it somewhere >>> else using the same name without Apache on the front. IIRC we don't allow >>> that. I don't think this is paranoia but just approaching this from the >>> same set of rules that we use for our own projects. >>> >>> Ralph >>> >>> >>> - >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>> >>> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> >> > > > > -- > http://www.grobmeier.de > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 5:26 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 22:45, Ralph Goers wrote: >> On Nov 23, 2010, at 6:06 PM, Greg Stein wrote: >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 20:47, Ralph Goers >>> wrote: ... OK - Have they explicitly OK'd Apache Wave? While Apache Wave would certainly be unique to Apache, if Google intends to keep using Google Wave (and Wave as a shorthand) this would get very confusing. >>> >>> Don't you think that by proposing Wave to the Incubator that Google >>> has OK'd this? >> >> I don't work for Google and don't know the people proposing this so no, I >> have no idea whether Google has OK'd this. > > Simple review: the original email was sent by Dan Peterson from his > google.com address. I imagine that if Google had a problem with it, > then he wouldn't be working there tomorrow :-D ... or if this was some > kind of spurious one-guy-goes-batshit-crazy, then how could he line up > so many people? > > And sure, while you couldn't know this, Dan is a great guy. I worked > with him while at Google. This proposal is straight-up. > > My simple point is: please accept proposals at face value rather than > pushing back with paranoid thoughts about malfeasance on the part of > the people wanting to join our efforts here at the ASF. > Ralph's question seemed reasonable to me, the ASF trademarks people are a often mentioning problems with using trademarked names like this. However its something that can be sorted out with those ASF trademarks folks during incubation, its not a barrier for entry to incubation. Anyway, seems like a fine proposal to me, +1 for it coming to Apache. ...ant - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
On 24 Nov 2010, at 4:29 , Michael MacFadden wrote: > I agree, there are other wave implementations popping up, some of which > include "wave" in the name and some don't. "Lightwave" for example is one > such project. I think that Apache Wave and the Wave in a Box product should > be fine. Lightwave? http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/ Greetings, Marcel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
> > > Lightwave? http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/ No, he's referring to Torben Weis' lightwave: http://code.google.com/p/lightwave/ -- Chris iotawave.org Singapore
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
+1 (non binding) loved wave, glad it's not going to die! On Tuesday, November 23, 2010, Dan Peterson wrote: > Hello all, > > We'd like to propose Wave for entry into the ASF incubator. > > The draft proposal is available at: > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WaveProposal > (for your convenience, a snapshot is also copied below) > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the > name of the main product at the moment, which is a server that hosts and > federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and provides a rich web client. > This project also includes an implementation of the Wave Federation > protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems (such as multiple > interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > As a result of the recent Wave Summit, beyond growing a few new committers, > we've put together the following proposal for migrating the community into > the ASF incubator. More details on the summit & Wave in a Box progress in > this blogpost: > http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-weeks-wave-protocol-summit-updates.html > > We are looking forward to your feedback and suggestions. > > By the way, if you're looking to learn more about the technology related to > wave, you can see the videos and presentations from the recent Wave Summit > in: https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+rwFyiw47A > > Kind regards, > -Dan, on behalf of the Wave Community > > P.S. For those on the wave-protocol Google Group (that aren't yet on > general@incubator.apache.org), please participate in this discussion > by sending a message to general-subscribe at incubator dot apache dot org > > > Apache Wave Proposal (Apache Incubator) > > = Abstract = > > Apache Wave is the project where wave technology is developed at Apache. > Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the name of the main product at the moment, which is > a server that hosts and federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and > provides a rich web client. This project also includes an implementation of > the Wave Federation protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems > (such as multiple interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > = Proposal = > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. > > WIAB is a server that hosts waves. The best analogy for this is a mail > server with a web client. WIAB is comprised of a few high-level components: > the client and the server. They have the following major functionality > (though this is not an exhaustive list): > > * Client > *A dynamic web client for users to create, edit, and search waves. Users > can access this client by directly visiting the server in a browser. > * Gadgets provide the ability to insert, view, and modify the UI -- > exposing the Wave Gadgets API ( > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/gadgets/guide.html) > * A console client that can create and edit waves via a command-line-like > interface. > * Server > * Hosts and stores waves. WIAB comes with a default storage mechanism. The > administrators of the server may configure it to use alternative storage > mechanisms. > * Indexing, allowing for searching the waves a user has access to. > * Basic authentication, configurable to delegate to other systems. > * Federation, allowing separate Wave in a Box servers to communicate with > each other using the Wave Federation Protocol ( > http://www.waveprotocol.org/federation). > * Robots, using the Wave Robots API, ( > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/robots/) may interact with waves > on a WIAB instance. > > = Background = > > Wave expresses a new metaphor for communication: hosted conversations. This > was created by Lars and Jens Rasmussen after observation of people's use of > many separate forms of communication to get something done, e.g, email, > chat, docs, blogs, twitter, etc. > > The vision has always been to better the way people communicate and > collaborate. Building open protocols and sharing code available in an open > and free way is a critical part of that vision. Anyone should be able to > bring up their own wave server and communicate with others (much like SMTP). > > We hope this project will allow everyone to easily gain the benefits of Wave > with a standard implementation of Wave – in a box. > > = Rationale = > > Wave has shown it excels at small group collaboration when hosted by Google. > Although Wave will not continue as a standalone Google product, there is a > lot of interest from many organizations in both running Wave and building > upon the technology for new products. > > We are confident that with the community-centric development environment > fostered by the Apache Software Foundation, WIAB will thrive. > > = Initial Goals = > > The initial goals of the project are: > > 1. To migrate the codebase from code.google.com and integrate
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
+1 I am so happy that after all considerations and suggestions that were floated in the Wave community, you guys picked Apache as the place to develop Wave community and WIAB. Good luck and let me know if you need extra mentors (you already have 4, so I figured you are covered and didn't add myself to the list). Cheers, Andrus On Nov 23, 2010, at 10:16 PM, Dan Peterson wrote: > Hello all, > > We'd like to propose Wave for entry into the ASF incubator. > > The draft proposal is available at: > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WaveProposal > (for your convenience, a snapshot is also copied below) > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the > name of the main product at the moment, which is a server that hosts and > federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and provides a rich web client. > This project also includes an implementation of the Wave Federation > protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems (such as multiple > interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > As a result of the recent Wave Summit, beyond growing a few new committers, > we've put together the following proposal for migrating the community into > the ASF incubator. More details on the summit & Wave in a Box progress in > this blogpost: > http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-weeks-wave-protocol-summit-updates.html > > We are looking forward to your feedback and suggestions. > > By the way, if you're looking to learn more about the technology related to > wave, you can see the videos and presentations from the recent Wave Summit > in: https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+rwFyiw47A > > Kind regards, > -Dan, on behalf of the Wave Community > > P.S. For those on the wave-protocol Google Group (that aren't yet on > general@incubator.apache.org), please participate in this discussion > by sending a message to general-subscribe at incubator dot apache dot org > > > Apache Wave Proposal (Apache Incubator) > > = Abstract = > > Apache Wave is the project where wave technology is developed at Apache. > Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the name of the main product at the moment, which is > a server that hosts and federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and > provides a rich web client. This project also includes an implementation of > the Wave Federation protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems > (such as multiple interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > = Proposal = > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. > > WIAB is a server that hosts waves. The best analogy for this is a mail > server with a web client. WIAB is comprised of a few high-level components: > the client and the server. They have the following major functionality > (though this is not an exhaustive list): > > * Client > *A dynamic web client for users to create, edit, and search waves. Users > can access this client by directly visiting the server in a browser. > * Gadgets provide the ability to insert, view, and modify the UI -- > exposing the Wave Gadgets API ( > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/gadgets/guide.html) > * A console client that can create and edit waves via a command-line-like > interface. > * Server > * Hosts and stores waves. WIAB comes with a default storage mechanism. The > administrators of the server may configure it to use alternative storage > mechanisms. > * Indexing, allowing for searching the waves a user has access to. > * Basic authentication, configurable to delegate to other systems. > * Federation, allowing separate Wave in a Box servers to communicate with > each other using the Wave Federation Protocol ( > http://www.waveprotocol.org/federation). > * Robots, using the Wave Robots API, ( > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/robots/) may interact with waves > on a WIAB instance. > > = Background = > > Wave expresses a new metaphor for communication: hosted conversations. This > was created by Lars and Jens Rasmussen after observation of people's use of > many separate forms of communication to get something done, e.g, email, > chat, docs, blogs, twitter, etc. > > The vision has always been to better the way people communicate and > collaborate. Building open protocols and sharing code available in an open > and free way is a critical part of that vision. Anyone should be able to > bring up their own wave server and communicate with others (much like SMTP). > > We hope this project will allow everyone to easily gain the benefits of Wave > with a standard implementation of Wave – in a box. > > = Rationale = > > Wave has shown it excels at small group collaboration when hosted by Google. > Although Wave will not continue as a standalone Google product, there is a > lot of interest from many organizations in both running Wave and building > upon the technology f
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
+1 (non-binding) On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Andrus Adamchik wrote: > +1 > > I am so happy that after all considerations and suggestions that were floated > in the Wave community, you guys picked Apache as the place to develop Wave > community and WIAB. Good luck and let me know if you need extra mentors (you > already have 4, so I figured you are covered and didn't add myself to the > list). > > Cheers, > Andrus > > On Nov 23, 2010, at 10:16 PM, Dan Peterson wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> We'd like to propose Wave for entry into the ASF incubator. >> >> The draft proposal is available at: >> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WaveProposal >> (for your convenience, a snapshot is also copied below) >> >> A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. >> It can be used like email, chat, or a document. Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the >> name of the main product at the moment, which is a server that hosts and >> federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and provides a rich web client. >> This project also includes an implementation of the Wave Federation >> protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems (such as multiple >> interoperable Wave In a Box instances). >> >> As a result of the recent Wave Summit, beyond growing a few new committers, >> we've put together the following proposal for migrating the community into >> the ASF incubator. More details on the summit & Wave in a Box progress in >> this blogpost: >> http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-weeks-wave-protocol-summit-updates.html >> >> We are looking forward to your feedback and suggestions. >> >> By the way, if you're looking to learn more about the technology related to >> wave, you can see the videos and presentations from the recent Wave Summit >> in: https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+rwFyiw47A >> >> Kind regards, >> -Dan, on behalf of the Wave Community >> >> P.S. For those on the wave-protocol Google Group (that aren't yet on >> general@incubator.apache.org), please participate in this discussion >> by sending a message to general-subscribe at incubator dot apache dot org >> >> >> Apache Wave Proposal (Apache Incubator) >> >> = Abstract = >> >> Apache Wave is the project where wave technology is developed at Apache. >> Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the name of the main product at the moment, which is >> a server that hosts and federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and >> provides a rich web client. This project also includes an implementation of >> the Wave Federation protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems >> (such as multiple interoperable Wave In a Box instances). >> >> = Proposal = >> >> A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. >> It can be used like email, chat, or a document. >> >> WIAB is a server that hosts waves. The best analogy for this is a mail >> server with a web client. WIAB is comprised of a few high-level components: >> the client and the server. They have the following major functionality >> (though this is not an exhaustive list): >> >> * Client >> *A dynamic web client for users to create, edit, and search waves. Users >> can access this client by directly visiting the server in a browser. >> * Gadgets provide the ability to insert, view, and modify the UI -- >> exposing the Wave Gadgets API ( >> http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/gadgets/guide.html) >> * A console client that can create and edit waves via a command-line-like >> interface. >> * Server >> * Hosts and stores waves. WIAB comes with a default storage mechanism. The >> administrators of the server may configure it to use alternative storage >> mechanisms. >> * Indexing, allowing for searching the waves a user has access to. >> * Basic authentication, configurable to delegate to other systems. >> * Federation, allowing separate Wave in a Box servers to communicate with >> each other using the Wave Federation Protocol ( >> http://www.waveprotocol.org/federation). >> * Robots, using the Wave Robots API, ( >> http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/robots/) may interact with waves >> on a WIAB instance. >> >> = Background = >> >> Wave expresses a new metaphor for communication: hosted conversations. This >> was created by Lars and Jens Rasmussen after observation of people's use of >> many separate forms of communication to get something done, e.g, email, >> chat, docs, blogs, twitter, etc. >> >> The vision has always been to better the way people communicate and >> collaborate. Building open protocols and sharing code available in an open >> and free way is a critical part of that vision. Anyone should be able to >> bring up their own wave server and communicate with others (much like SMTP). >> >> We hope this project will allow everyone to easily gain the benefits of Wave >> with a standard implementation of Wave – in a box. >> >> = Rationale = >> >> Wave has shown it excels at small group collaboration when hosted by Google. >> A
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
+1 Regards, Ate On 23/11/10 21:16, Dan Peterson wrote: Hello all, We'd like to propose Wave for entry into the ASF incubator. The draft proposal is available at: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WaveProposal (for your convenience, a snapshot is also copied below) A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. It can be used like email, chat, or a document. Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the name of the main product at the moment, which is a server that hosts and federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and provides a rich web client. This project also includes an implementation of the Wave Federation protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems (such as multiple interoperable Wave In a Box instances). As a result of the recent Wave Summit, beyond growing a few new committers, we've put together the following proposal for migrating the community into the ASF incubator. More details on the summit& Wave in a Box progress in this blogpost: http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-weeks-wave-protocol-summit-updates.html We are looking forward to your feedback and suggestions. By the way, if you're looking to learn more about the technology related to wave, you can see the videos and presentations from the recent Wave Summit in: https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+rwFyiw47A Kind regards, -Dan, on behalf of the Wave Community P.S. For those on the wave-protocol Google Group (that aren't yet on general@incubator.apache.org), please participate in this discussion by sending a message to general-subscribe at incubator dot apache dot org Apache Wave Proposal (Apache Incubator) = Abstract = Apache Wave is the project where wave technology is developed at Apache. Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the name of the main product at the moment, which is a server that hosts and federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and provides a rich web client. This project also includes an implementation of the Wave Federation protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems (such as multiple interoperable Wave In a Box instances). = Proposal = A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. It can be used like email, chat, or a document. WIAB is a server that hosts waves. The best analogy for this is a mail server with a web client. WIAB is comprised of a few high-level components: the client and the server. They have the following major functionality (though this is not an exhaustive list): * Client *A dynamic web client for users to create, edit, and search waves. Users can access this client by directly visiting the server in a browser. * Gadgets provide the ability to insert, view, and modify the UI -- exposing the Wave Gadgets API ( http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/gadgets/guide.html) * A console client that can create and edit waves via a command-line-like interface. * Server * Hosts and stores waves. WIAB comes with a default storage mechanism. The administrators of the server may configure it to use alternative storage mechanisms. * Indexing, allowing for searching the waves a user has access to. * Basic authentication, configurable to delegate to other systems. * Federation, allowing separate Wave in a Box servers to communicate with each other using the Wave Federation Protocol ( http://www.waveprotocol.org/federation). * Robots, using the Wave Robots API, ( http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/robots/) may interact with waves on a WIAB instance. = Background = Wave expresses a new metaphor for communication: hosted conversations. This was created by Lars and Jens Rasmussen after observation of people's use of many separate forms of communication to get something done, e.g, email, chat, docs, blogs, twitter, etc. The vision has always been to better the way people communicate and collaborate. Building open protocols and sharing code available in an open and free way is a critical part of that vision. Anyone should be able to bring up their own wave server and communicate with others (much like SMTP). We hope this project will allow everyone to easily gain the benefits of Wave with a standard implementation of Wave – in a box. = Rationale = Wave has shown it excels at small group collaboration when hosted by Google. Although Wave will not continue as a standalone Google product, there is a lot of interest from many organizations in both running Wave and building upon the technology for new products. We are confident that with the community-centric development environment fostered by the Apache Software Foundation, WIAB will thrive. = Initial Goals = The initial goals of the project are: 1. To migrate the codebase from code.google.com and integrate the project with the ASF infrastructure (issue management, build, project site, etc). 1. To quickly reach a state where it is possible to continue the development of the Wave In a Box implementation under the ASF project. 1.
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
+1 @Dan if you need one more mentor, you could count me in. Vincent 2010/11/23 Dan Peterson : > Hello all, > > We'd like to propose Wave for entry into the ASF incubator. > > The draft proposal is available at: > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WaveProposal > (for your convenience, a snapshot is also copied below) > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the > name of the main product at the moment, which is a server that hosts and > federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and provides a rich web client. > This project also includes an implementation of the Wave Federation > protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems (such as multiple > interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > As a result of the recent Wave Summit, beyond growing a few new committers, > we've put together the following proposal for migrating the community into > the ASF incubator. More details on the summit & Wave in a Box progress in > this blogpost: > http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-weeks-wave-protocol-summit-updates.html > > We are looking forward to your feedback and suggestions. > > By the way, if you're looking to learn more about the technology related to > wave, you can see the videos and presentations from the recent Wave Summit > in: https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+rwFyiw47A > > Kind regards, > -Dan, on behalf of the Wave Community > > P.S. For those on the wave-protocol Google Group (that aren't yet on > general@incubator.apache.org), please participate in this discussion > by sending a message to general-subscribe at incubator dot apache dot org > > > Apache Wave Proposal (Apache Incubator) > > = Abstract = > > Apache Wave is the project where wave technology is developed at Apache. > Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the name of the main product at the moment, which is > a server that hosts and federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and > provides a rich web client. This project also includes an implementation of > the Wave Federation protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems > (such as multiple interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > = Proposal = > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. > > WIAB is a server that hosts waves. The best analogy for this is a mail > server with a web client. WIAB is comprised of a few high-level components: > the client and the server. They have the following major functionality > (though this is not an exhaustive list): > > * Client > *A dynamic web client for users to create, edit, and search waves. Users > can access this client by directly visiting the server in a browser. > * Gadgets provide the ability to insert, view, and modify the UI -- > exposing the Wave Gadgets API ( > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/gadgets/guide.html) > * A console client that can create and edit waves via a command-line-like > interface. > * Server > * Hosts and stores waves. WIAB comes with a default storage mechanism. The > administrators of the server may configure it to use alternative storage > mechanisms. > * Indexing, allowing for searching the waves a user has access to. > * Basic authentication, configurable to delegate to other systems. > * Federation, allowing separate Wave in a Box servers to communicate with > each other using the Wave Federation Protocol ( > http://www.waveprotocol.org/federation). > * Robots, using the Wave Robots API, ( > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/robots/) may interact with waves > on a WIAB instance. > > = Background = > > Wave expresses a new metaphor for communication: hosted conversations. This > was created by Lars and Jens Rasmussen after observation of people's use of > many separate forms of communication to get something done, e.g, email, > chat, docs, blogs, twitter, etc. > > The vision has always been to better the way people communicate and > collaborate. Building open protocols and sharing code available in an open > and free way is a critical part of that vision. Anyone should be able to > bring up their own wave server and communicate with others (much like SMTP). > > We hope this project will allow everyone to easily gain the benefits of Wave > with a standard implementation of Wave – in a box. > > = Rationale = > > Wave has shown it excels at small group collaboration when hosted by Google. > Although Wave will not continue as a standalone Google product, there is a > lot of interest from many organizations in both running Wave and building > upon the technology for new products. > > We are confident that with the community-centric development environment > fostered by the Apache Software Foundation, WIAB will thrive. > > = Initial Goals = > > The initial goals of the project are: > > 1. To migrate the codebase from code.google.com and integrate the project > with t
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
+1 Would be happy to help of you need any (and if I can find time) Ian On 23 Nov 2010, at 20:16, Dan Peterson wrote: > Hello all, > > We'd like to propose Wave for entry into the ASF incubator. > > The draft proposal is available at: > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WaveProposal > (for your convenience, a snapshot is also copied below) > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the > name of the main product at the moment, which is a server that hosts and > federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and provides a rich web client. > This project also includes an implementation of the Wave Federation > protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems (such as multiple > interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > As a result of the recent Wave Summit, beyond growing a few new committers, > we've put together the following proposal for migrating the community into > the ASF incubator. More details on the summit & Wave in a Box progress in > this blogpost: > http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-weeks-wave-protocol-summit-updates.html > > We are looking forward to your feedback and suggestions. > > By the way, if you're looking to learn more about the technology related to > wave, you can see the videos and presentations from the recent Wave Summit > in: https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+rwFyiw47A > > Kind regards, > -Dan, on behalf of the Wave Community > > P.S. For those on the wave-protocol Google Group (that aren't yet on > general@incubator.apache.org), please participate in this discussion > by sending a message to general-subscribe at incubator dot apache dot org > > > Apache Wave Proposal (Apache Incubator) > > = Abstract = > > Apache Wave is the project where wave technology is developed at Apache. > Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the name of the main product at the moment, which is > a server that hosts and federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and > provides a rich web client. This project also includes an implementation of > the Wave Federation protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems > (such as multiple interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > = Proposal = > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. > > WIAB is a server that hosts waves. The best analogy for this is a mail > server with a web client. WIAB is comprised of a few high-level components: > the client and the server. They have the following major functionality > (though this is not an exhaustive list): > > * Client > *A dynamic web client for users to create, edit, and search waves. Users > can access this client by directly visiting the server in a browser. > * Gadgets provide the ability to insert, view, and modify the UI -- > exposing the Wave Gadgets API ( > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/gadgets/guide.html) > * A console client that can create and edit waves via a command-line-like > interface. > * Server > * Hosts and stores waves. WIAB comes with a default storage mechanism. The > administrators of the server may configure it to use alternative storage > mechanisms. > * Indexing, allowing for searching the waves a user has access to. > * Basic authentication, configurable to delegate to other systems. > * Federation, allowing separate Wave in a Box servers to communicate with > each other using the Wave Federation Protocol ( > http://www.waveprotocol.org/federation). > * Robots, using the Wave Robots API, ( > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/robots/) may interact with waves > on a WIAB instance. > > = Background = > > Wave expresses a new metaphor for communication: hosted conversations. This > was created by Lars and Jens Rasmussen after observation of people's use of > many separate forms of communication to get something done, e.g, email, > chat, docs, blogs, twitter, etc. > > The vision has always been to better the way people communicate and > collaborate. Building open protocols and sharing code available in an open > and free way is a critical part of that vision. Anyone should be able to > bring up their own wave server and communicate with others (much like SMTP). > > We hope this project will allow everyone to easily gain the benefits of Wave > with a standard implementation of Wave – in a box. > > = Rationale = > > Wave has shown it excels at small group collaboration when hosted by Google. > Although Wave will not continue as a standalone Google product, there is a > lot of interest from many organizations in both running Wave and building > upon the technology for new products. > > We are confident that with the community-centric development environment > fostered by the Apache Software Foundation, WIAB will thrive. > > = Initial Goals = > > The initial goals of the project are: > > 1. To migrate the codebase from code.
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
+1 (non-binding) Cheers Daniel On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 9:16 PM, Dan Peterson wrote: > Hello all, > > We'd like to propose Wave for entry into the ASF incubator. > > The draft proposal is available at: > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WaveProposal > (for your convenience, a snapshot is also copied below) > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the > name of the main product at the moment, which is a server that hosts and > federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and provides a rich web client. > This project also includes an implementation of the Wave Federation > protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems (such as multiple > interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > As a result of the recent Wave Summit, beyond growing a few new committers, > we've put together the following proposal for migrating the community into > the ASF incubator. More details on the summit & Wave in a Box progress in > this blogpost: > http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-weeks-wave-protocol-summit-updates.html > > We are looking forward to your feedback and suggestions. > > By the way, if you're looking to learn more about the technology related to > wave, you can see the videos and presentations from the recent Wave Summit > in: https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+rwFyiw47A > > Kind regards, > -Dan, on behalf of the Wave Community > > P.S. For those on the wave-protocol Google Group (that aren't yet on > general@incubator.apache.org), please participate in this discussion > by sending a message to general-subscribe at incubator dot apache dot org > > > Apache Wave Proposal (Apache Incubator) > > = Abstract = > > Apache Wave is the project where wave technology is developed at Apache. > Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the name of the main product at the moment, which is > a server that hosts and federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and > provides a rich web client. This project also includes an implementation of > the Wave Federation protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems > (such as multiple interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > = Proposal = > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. > > WIAB is a server that hosts waves. The best analogy for this is a mail > server with a web client. WIAB is comprised of a few high-level components: > the client and the server. They have the following major functionality > (though this is not an exhaustive list): > > * Client > *A dynamic web client for users to create, edit, and search waves. Users > can access this client by directly visiting the server in a browser. > * Gadgets provide the ability to insert, view, and modify the UI -- > exposing the Wave Gadgets API ( > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/gadgets/guide.html) > * A console client that can create and edit waves via a command-line-like > interface. > * Server > * Hosts and stores waves. WIAB comes with a default storage mechanism. The > administrators of the server may configure it to use alternative storage > mechanisms. > * Indexing, allowing for searching the waves a user has access to. > * Basic authentication, configurable to delegate to other systems. > * Federation, allowing separate Wave in a Box servers to communicate with > each other using the Wave Federation Protocol ( > http://www.waveprotocol.org/federation). > * Robots, using the Wave Robots API, ( > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/robots/) may interact with waves > on a WIAB instance. > > = Background = > > Wave expresses a new metaphor for communication: hosted conversations. This > was created by Lars and Jens Rasmussen after observation of people's use of > many separate forms of communication to get something done, e.g, email, > chat, docs, blogs, twitter, etc. > > The vision has always been to better the way people communicate and > collaborate. Building open protocols and sharing code available in an open > and free way is a critical part of that vision. Anyone should be able to > bring up their own wave server and communicate with others (much like SMTP). > > We hope this project will allow everyone to easily gain the benefits of Wave > with a standard implementation of Wave – in a box. > > = Rationale = > > Wave has shown it excels at small group collaboration when hosted by Google. > Although Wave will not continue as a standalone Google product, there is a > lot of interest from many organizations in both running Wave and building > upon the technology for new products. > > We are confident that with the community-centric development environment > fostered by the Apache Software Foundation, WIAB will thrive. > > = Initial Goals = > > The initial goals of the project are: > > 1. To migrate the codebase from code.google.com and integrate the project > with the ASF inf
Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 16:16, Benson Margulies wrote:
> I am nothing if not chronically disingenuous.
>
> My first concern in responding here is a process concern. As far as I
> can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to forbid the use
> of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a vote, the use
> of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the mentors to
> guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed.
Concluding that in the absence of a vote everything is allowed is not correct.
There is a lot of unwritten, conventional law at Apache which has
never been subject to a vote but is nonetheless part of how-it-works.
That's the hard thing about Apache - you have to be part of the
community for a substantial amount of time to know how it really
works. Sadly, there is no such thing as a manual "Apache in 14 days".
My recommendation: Skip the conf calls - it's a waste of time -, and
start with email communication right away. Reason: If there's only one
person not on the call, the whole discussion from the conf call will
happen again asymptotically on the mailing list ("...as I said on the
conf call..."). Also, call transcripts ("... as we decided on the conf
call...") minutes tend to sound binding (and people on the call think
they are) when really they aren't, which can lead to frustration.
Bernd
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Bernd Fondermann wrote: > On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 16:16, Benson Margulies wrote: >> I am nothing if not chronically disingenuous. >> >> My first concern in responding here is a process concern. As far as I >> can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to forbid the use >> of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a vote, the use >> of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the mentors to >> guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed. > > Concluding that in the absence of a vote everything is allowed is not correct. Bernd, I never wrote that 'everything is allowed.' I wrote that it's not forbidden, and that it's clear that existing projects are using it. I respect your advice, but I am not going to dictate this to the podling team. --benson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 15:02, Benson Margulies wrote: > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Bernd Fondermann > wrote: >> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 16:16, Benson Margulies >> wrote: >>> I am nothing if not chronically disingenuous. >>> >>> My first concern in responding here is a process concern. As far as I >>> can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to forbid the use >>> of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a vote, the use >>> of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the mentors to >>> guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed. >> >> Concluding that in the absence of a vote everything is allowed is not >> correct. > > Bernd, > > I never wrote that 'everything is allowed.' You said: No vote forbidding A => A is not forbidden. This reasoning is not correct. > I wrote that it's not > forbidden, and that it's clear that existing projects are using it. Which projects? Maybe we need to point the board to them and ask them to report about how they conduct them. Personally, not being on the board myself, I'd weigh a few more things to judge a project's community than just if they do conf calls or not. But it would be interesting to have a look. > I respect your advice, but I am not going to dictate this to the podling > team. I'm happy to explain my PoV directly to the podling. Bernd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
A hearty +1 from the designated champion to getting Wave into the Incubator. I've been especially impressed with the way the community has rallied behind the open source implementation and know that it will do well at Apache. On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Dan Peterson wrote: > Hello all, > > We'd like to propose Wave for entry into the ASF incubator. > > The draft proposal is available at: > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WaveProposal > (for your convenience, a snapshot is also copied below) > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the > name of the main product at the moment, which is a server that hosts and > federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and provides a rich web client. > This project also includes an implementation of the Wave Federation > protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems (such as multiple > interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > As a result of the recent Wave Summit, beyond growing a few new committers, > we've put together the following proposal for migrating the community into > the ASF incubator. More details on the summit & Wave in a Box progress in > this blogpost: > http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-weeks-wave-protocol-summit-updates.html > > We are looking forward to your feedback and suggestions. > > By the way, if you're looking to learn more about the technology related to > wave, you can see the videos and presentations from the recent Wave Summit > in: https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+rwFyiw47A > > Kind regards, > -Dan, on behalf of the Wave Community > > P.S. For those on the wave-protocol Google Group (that aren't yet on > general@incubator.apache.org), please participate in this discussion > by sending a message to general-subscribe at incubator dot apache dot org > > > Apache Wave Proposal (Apache Incubator) > > = Abstract = > > Apache Wave is the project where wave technology is developed at Apache. > Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the name of the main product at the moment, which is > a server that hosts and federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and > provides a rich web client. This project also includes an implementation of > the Wave Federation protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems > (such as multiple interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > = Proposal = > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. > > WIAB is a server that hosts waves. The best analogy for this is a mail > server with a web client. WIAB is comprised of a few high-level components: > the client and the server. They have the following major functionality > (though this is not an exhaustive list): > > * Client > *A dynamic web client for users to create, edit, and search waves. Users > can access this client by directly visiting the server in a browser. > * Gadgets provide the ability to insert, view, and modify the UI -- > exposing the Wave Gadgets API ( > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/gadgets/guide.html) > * A console client that can create and edit waves via a command-line-like > interface. > * Server > * Hosts and stores waves. WIAB comes with a default storage mechanism. The > administrators of the server may configure it to use alternative storage > mechanisms. > * Indexing, allowing for searching the waves a user has access to. > * Basic authentication, configurable to delegate to other systems. > * Federation, allowing separate Wave in a Box servers to communicate with > each other using the Wave Federation Protocol ( > http://www.waveprotocol.org/federation). > * Robots, using the Wave Robots API, ( > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/robots/) may interact with waves > on a WIAB instance. > > = Background = > > Wave expresses a new metaphor for communication: hosted conversations. This > was created by Lars and Jens Rasmussen after observation of people's use of > many separate forms of communication to get something done, e.g, email, > chat, docs, blogs, twitter, etc. > > The vision has always been to better the way people communicate and > collaborate. Building open protocols and sharing code available in an open > and free way is a critical part of that vision. Anyone should be able to > bring up their own wave server and communicate with others (much like SMTP). > > We hope this project will allow everyone to easily gain the benefits of Wave > with a standard implementation of Wave – in a box. > > = Rationale = > > Wave has shown it excels at small group collaboration when hosted by Google. > Although Wave will not continue as a standalone Google product, there is a > lot of interest from many organizations in both running Wave and building > upon the technology for new products. > > We are confident that with the community-centric development environment > fostered by the Apache Soft
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
+1 (non-binding) -- With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями, Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов, http://dataved.ru/ +7 916 562 8095 On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 5:25 PM, Paul Lindner wrote: > A hearty +1 from the designated champion to getting Wave into the > Incubator. I've been especially impressed with the way the community > has rallied behind the open source implementation and know that it > will do well at Apache. > > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Dan Peterson wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> We'd like to propose Wave for entry into the ASF incubator. >> >> The draft proposal is available at: >> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WaveProposal >> (for your convenience, a snapshot is also copied below) >> >> A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. >> It can be used like email, chat, or a document. Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the >> name of the main product at the moment, which is a server that hosts and >> federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and provides a rich web client. >> This project also includes an implementation of the Wave Federation >> protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems (such as multiple >> interoperable Wave In a Box instances). >> >> As a result of the recent Wave Summit, beyond growing a few new committers, >> we've put together the following proposal for migrating the community into >> the ASF incubator. More details on the summit & Wave in a Box progress in >> this blogpost: >> http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-weeks-wave-protocol-summit-updates.html >> >> We are looking forward to your feedback and suggestions. >> >> By the way, if you're looking to learn more about the technology related to >> wave, you can see the videos and presentations from the recent Wave Summit >> in: https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+rwFyiw47A >> >> Kind regards, >> -Dan, on behalf of the Wave Community >> >> P.S. For those on the wave-protocol Google Group (that aren't yet on >> general@incubator.apache.org), please participate in this discussion >> by sending a message to general-subscribe at incubator dot apache dot org >> >> >> Apache Wave Proposal (Apache Incubator) >> >> = Abstract = >> >> Apache Wave is the project where wave technology is developed at Apache. >> Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the name of the main product at the moment, which is >> a server that hosts and federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and >> provides a rich web client. This project also includes an implementation of >> the Wave Federation protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems >> (such as multiple interoperable Wave In a Box instances). >> >> = Proposal = >> >> A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich communication. >> It can be used like email, chat, or a document. >> >> WIAB is a server that hosts waves. The best analogy for this is a mail >> server with a web client. WIAB is comprised of a few high-level components: >> the client and the server. They have the following major functionality >> (though this is not an exhaustive list): >> >> * Client >> *A dynamic web client for users to create, edit, and search waves. Users >> can access this client by directly visiting the server in a browser. >> * Gadgets provide the ability to insert, view, and modify the UI -- >> exposing the Wave Gadgets API ( >> http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/gadgets/guide.html) >> * A console client that can create and edit waves via a command-line-like >> interface. >> * Server >> * Hosts and stores waves. WIAB comes with a default storage mechanism. The >> administrators of the server may configure it to use alternative storage >> mechanisms. >> * Indexing, allowing for searching the waves a user has access to. >> * Basic authentication, configurable to delegate to other systems. >> * Federation, allowing separate Wave in a Box servers to communicate with >> each other using the Wave Federation Protocol ( >> http://www.waveprotocol.org/federation). >> * Robots, using the Wave Robots API, ( >> http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/robots/) may interact with waves >> on a WIAB instance. >> >> = Background = >> >> Wave expresses a new metaphor for communication: hosted conversations. This >> was created by Lars and Jens Rasmussen after observation of people's use of >> many separate forms of communication to get something done, e.g, email, >> chat, docs, blogs, twitter, etc. >> >> The vision has always been to better the way people communicate and >> collaborate. Building open protocols and sharing code available in an open >> and free way is a critical part of that vision. Anyone should be able to >> bring up their own wave server and communicate with others (much like SMTP). >> >> We hope this project will allow everyone to easily gain the benefits of Wave >> with a standard implementation of Wave – in a box. >> >> = Rationale = >> >> Wave has shown it excels at small group collaboration when hosted by Googl
Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
On 11/24/10 3:18 PM, Bernd Fondermann wrote: On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 15:02, Benson Margulies wrote: On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Bernd Fondermann wrote: On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 16:16, Benson Margulies wrote: I am nothing if not chronically disingenuous. My first concern in responding here is a process concern. As far as I can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to forbid the use of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a vote, the use of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the mentors to guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed. Concluding that in the absence of a vote everything is allowed is not correct. Bernd, I never wrote that 'everything is allowed.' You said: No vote forbidding A => A is not forbidden. This reasoning is not correct. It's not all black *or* grey. In this case, IMO, even if it's not explicitly forbiden, it's strongly discouraged, and it has been a constant position, AFAICT. -- Regards, Cordialement, Emmanuel Lécharny www.iktek.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Instead of continuing this thread, I'd invite any of you to start watching the isis dev list, and report in if you see evidence of a failure to respect the core values that underly this argument. Isis has several mentors. I am only one. The mentors, in general, felt that the project had a strong enough understanding of the core values of open decision making and communications that they could be trusted to have phone calls and summarize them on list. So the project has proceeded on the basis of that guidance. A variety of IPMC members and, indeed, Foundation members, contributed to the specific advice that the project received and has continued to receive on this list. So, it is clear to me that the IPMC and the Foundation do *not* have an established consensus the forbids any podling from ever having a phone conference. My remarks about 'no vote against' should be read in that context. If some of you think that the IPMC, or even the whole Foundation, *should* establish such a consensus, by all means, start a decision-making thread here or talk to board members. I am not going to respond further on this thread to the matter of ISIS's occasional Skype calls. I mean no disrespect, but I think that everyone's views are represented. Some people are unperturbed, some are worried, and some think it should never happen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Benson Margulies wrote: > ...So, it is clear to me that the IPMC and the Foundation do *not* have > an established consensus the forbids any podling from ever having a > phone conference... Absolutely agreed, in the same way that we cannot prevent people from meeting on the street, at the coffee machine, on IRC, etc. Out-of-list meetings do happen, it's just a matter of handling them in a way that's inclusive, and making sure everything important happens on the dev list. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
The lightwave project I was referring to is over at google code: http://code.google.com/p/lightwave/ ~Michael On Nov 24, 2010, at 12:44 AM, Marcel Offermans wrote: > On 24 Nov 2010, at 4:29 , Michael MacFadden wrote: > >> I agree, there are other wave implementations popping up, some of which >> include "wave" in the name and some don't. "Lightwave" for example is one >> such project. I think that Apache Wave and the Wave in a Box product should >> be fine. > > Lightwave? http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/ > > Greetings, Marcel > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >
Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
I like your view on this. I hope things are going well? I now work in Groningen, the Netherlands. Yeliz. On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Glen Daniels wrote: > +1 as usual to Benson's extremely reasonable and pleasantly snarky viewpoint. > > While I do see the dangers of fragmenting the community, I think people often > go too far in downplaying the benefits of real-time communication. Quick > back-and-forths can enable complex scenarios to be thought through in a much > more effective way than asynchronous emails, without the need to constantly > "page back in" in order to follow the discussion. Simple misunderstandings > often can be cleared up in minutes instead of hours or days. And the sense > of getting to know someone is often subjectively deeper in chat, and much > more so on a phone call. These things all help move a project forward and > keep communities together. > > I feel like a bunch of people have a rather rigid "real-time BAD (well, > except ApacheCon), email GOOD" attitute, or at least come across that way on > email, and I'd like to make sure that the other side of it - i.e. "real-time, > when thoughtfully and appropriately integrated into a project, can provide > some deep value to the whole community" - isn't shuffled under the rug. IMO, > we should be messaging about how to do it well if it's desired, not whether > or not to do it at all. > > Thanks, > --Glen > > On 11/22/2010 8:56 AM, Benson Margulies wrote: >> As a mentor of ISIS, I'd like to ask everyone to give them a little >> breathing room on this subject. >> >> Many TLP's in good standing have active IRC channels. These have very >> closely related risks to open communities. Many TLPs in good standing >> hold in-person meetups from time to time. >> >> This is not to claim that the warnings in this thread are pointless. >> They are good warnings. However, it's the job of us mentors to help >> the community avoid the traps of Skype, IRC, meetups, co-workers, and >> the secret conspiracies of the trilateral commission, which works >> tirelessly to subvert Apache communities. >> >> If it makes anyone feel any better, I plan, as a mentor, to _avoid_ >> the Skype calls, and so to maintain a perspective comparable to that >> of someone off-time-zone. >> >> --benson >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote: >>> By definition, ANY such meeting will exclude some people; it's just the >>> nature of the beast. Anyone not in that timezone either will not be >>> able to attend or will need to go out of their way to attend. As >>> such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise large groups of people, >>> esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the place" to discuss ISIS. >>> >>> Your generic comment about "individuals like to communicate during >>> long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard" is also off the mark >>> as well... Some do, sure, but not all. Again, this sends a signal that >>> if you want to be part of ISIS you need to fall into that group. Not >>> a good way to build a diverse community. >>> >>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl wrote: >>> Hi folks, open source projects are done by individuals. And individuals like to communicate during long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And meeting the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread around the globe. So if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding) +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it and/or impose rules how to organize such a "come together". Speaking as one of the participants +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to organize the meeting +) I was delighted that we were a dozen developers on Skype *) I was glad to answer a few questions about the ASF (despite being seriously distracted by my two daughters on my lap) Cheers, Siegfried Goeschl Apache ISIS Mentor On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell wrote: > > On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > >> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary. > > I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done, > which is... > >> Just bring a summary of >> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations. >> The list can then sort through it and make decisions. > > What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion > points which continue on list. > > Craig >> >> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We >> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the l
[DISCUSS] real-time communications
Some reading the thread on the ISIS podling's use of Skype may feel that I am dismissing their opinions or disregarding an established policy. To do penance for any perceived slight, and to make it perfectly clear that it is my intention to respect established policy, I am starting this thread for the discussion of real-time communications. I want to separate this discussion from ISIS, so as not to make the PPMC feel like the rules are changing around them in real-time as participants in this mailing list register their opinions. This is not a vote. There is no specific proposal. Further, as a dictatorship guided by a consensus (that's the legal structure of an Apache PMC, after all), we should not be voting until we have some reason to believe that we have a consensus to ratify. Unless, of course, our dictator decided to, well, dictate. The premise of this discussion is that running Apache projects are *permitted* to engage in real-time communications, so long as they take due care to avoid community problems of exclusion and closed decision making. If anyone disagrees with that premise, they need to open a thread somewhere else. Instead, the question at hand is how to reflect that state of policy here at the incubator. We all want strong communities that are inclusive and open. We all recognize that real-time communications pose risks to that. I could imagine several possible incubator policies, ranging from 'no real-time at all until you graduate' to 'mentors are responsible for giving good guidance and supervision.' Please contribute your views to this thread, and perhaps we will discover that we have an agreement that can be typed up and added to a page. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Minor confusion on the IP clearance front ...
I find myself, for the first time, in the position of being the go-to mentor for a new launch. Last time around, the other mentors were so enthusiastic that I didn't have to do anything except type up the first three INFRA JIRAs. I'm trying to get my head wrapped around the IP clearance process. This page [1] says, 'This form is not for new projects' and points me to [2]. [2] says nothing about the topic specifically, but points me off to [3]. [3] is the right thing. Does anyone mind if I change [1] to contain a link directly to [3]? 1: http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html 2: http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Setting+Up+a+New+Podling 3: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Minor confusion on the IP clearance front ...
Hi Benson, On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Benson Margulies wrote: > I find myself, for the first time, in the position of being the go-to > mentor for a new launch. Last time around, the other mentors were so > enthusiastic that I didn't have to do anything except type up the > first three INFRA JIRAs Same for me, although I have mentored a number of projects it's the first time I have to take care of that for the Stanbol podling. I think https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/STANBOL-2 summarizes the process, let me know if you see it differently. > ...Does anyone mind if I change [1] to contain a link directly to [3]?... Sounds good to me. -Bertrand > > > 1: http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html > 2: > http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Setting+Up+a+New+Podling > 3: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Dan Peterson wrote: > Hello all, > > We'd like to propose Wave for entry into the ASF incubator. > > The draft proposal is available at: > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WaveProposal > (for your convenience, a snapshot is also copied below) +1 (a bit biased as I was a fan of wave) -- J. Aaron Farr 馮傑仁 www.cubiclemuses.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: [VOTE] Accept Jena into the incubator
+1 --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: [DISCUSS] Poddling new committer process
> Ok its been nearly a week and there is overwhelming support for doing > this so I have gone ahead and made an update to the PPMC guide to > reflect this [policy change]. Let's remember to add this to next month's Board report. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
Hi Andrus, Thanks for your support. I think this'll be a good home for Wave to grow and mature. I've taken the liberty of adding you on the mentor list. :) Cheers, -Dan On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:20 AM, Andrus Adamchik wrote: > +1 > > I am so happy that after all considerations and suggestions that were > floated in the Wave community, you guys picked Apache as the place to > develop Wave community and WIAB. Good luck and let me know if you need extra > mentors (you already have 4, so I figured you are covered and didn't add > myself to the list). > > Cheers, > Andrus > > On Nov 23, 2010, at 10:16 PM, Dan Peterson wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > We'd like to propose Wave for entry into the ASF incubator. > > > > The draft proposal is available at: > > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WaveProposal > > (for your convenience, a snapshot is also copied below) > > > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich > communication. > > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. Wave in a Box (WIAB) is > the > > name of the main product at the moment, which is a server that hosts and > > federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and provides a rich web client. > > This project also includes an implementation of the Wave Federation > > protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems (such as multiple > > interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > > > As a result of the recent Wave Summit, beyond growing a few new > committers, > > we've put together the following proposal for migrating the community > into > > the ASF incubator. More details on the summit & Wave in a Box progress in > > this blogpost: > > > http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-weeks-wave-protocol-summit-updates.html > > > > We are looking forward to your feedback and suggestions. > > > > By the way, if you're looking to learn more about the technology related > to > > wave, you can see the videos and presentations from the recent Wave > Summit > > in: https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+rwFyiw47A > > > > Kind regards, > > -Dan, on behalf of the Wave Community > > > > P.S. For those on the wave-protocol Google Group (that aren't yet on > > general@incubator.apache.org), please participate in this discussion > > by sending a message to general-subscribe at incubator dot apache dot org > > > > > > Apache Wave Proposal (Apache Incubator) > > > > = Abstract = > > > > Apache Wave is the project where wave technology is developed at Apache. > > Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the name of the main product at the moment, which > is > > a server that hosts and federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and > > provides a rich web client. This project also includes an implementation > of > > the Wave Federation protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems > > (such as multiple interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > > > = Proposal = > > > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich > communication. > > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. > > > > WIAB is a server that hosts waves. The best analogy for this is a mail > > server with a web client. WIAB is comprised of a few high-level > components: > > the client and the server. They have the following major functionality > > (though this is not an exhaustive list): > > > > * Client > > *A dynamic web client for users to create, edit, and search waves. Users > > can access this client by directly visiting the server in a browser. > > * Gadgets provide the ability to insert, view, and modify the UI -- > > exposing the Wave Gadgets API ( > > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/gadgets/guide.html) > > * A console client that can create and edit waves via a > command-line-like > > interface. > > * Server > > * Hosts and stores waves. WIAB comes with a default storage mechanism. > The > > administrators of the server may configure it to use alternative storage > > mechanisms. > > * Indexing, allowing for searching the waves a user has access to. > > * Basic authentication, configurable to delegate to other systems. > > * Federation, allowing separate Wave in a Box servers to communicate > with > > each other using the Wave Federation Protocol ( > > http://www.waveprotocol.org/federation). > > * Robots, using the Wave Robots API, ( > > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/robots/) may interact with > waves > > on a WIAB instance. > > > > = Background = > > > > Wave expresses a new metaphor for communication: hosted conversations. > This > > was created by Lars and Jens Rasmussen after observation of people's use > of > > many separate forms of communication to get something done, e.g, email, > > chat, docs, blogs, twitter, etc. > > > > The vision has always been to better the way people communicate and > > collaborate. Building open protocols and sharing code available in an > open > > and free way is a critical part of that vision. Anyone should be able to > > bring up their own wave server and communicate
RE: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
> The premise of this discussion is that running Apache projects are > *permitted* to engage in real-time communications, so long as they > take due care to avoid community problems of exclusion and closed > decision making. Did you see Greg's e-mail? "Just bring a summary of discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations. The list can then sort through it and make decisions." Decisions are not made except on the mailing lists. If it starts to seem that people are being excluded from being an effective part of a decision process, curtail or modify the back-channel communications. > We all want strong communities that are inclusive and open. We all recognize > that real-time communications pose risks to that. +1 FWIW, ApacheDS and Geronimo had (possibly still have) *very* active IRC channels (logged) where people talked in real-time, just as they might at a Hack-a-Thon. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
Hi Vincent, That's great! I've added you as a Mentor. -Dan On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:40 AM, Vincent Siveton wrote: > +1 > > @Dan if you need one more mentor, you could count me in. > > Vincent > > 2010/11/23 Dan Peterson : > > Hello all, > > > > We'd like to propose Wave for entry into the ASF incubator. > > > > The draft proposal is available at: > > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WaveProposal > > (for your convenience, a snapshot is also copied below) > > > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich > communication. > > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. Wave in a Box (WIAB) is > the > > name of the main product at the moment, which is a server that hosts and > > federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and provides a rich web client. > > This project also includes an implementation of the Wave Federation > > protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems (such as multiple > > interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > > > As a result of the recent Wave Summit, beyond growing a few new > committers, > > we've put together the following proposal for migrating the community > into > > the ASF incubator. More details on the summit & Wave in a Box progress in > > this blogpost: > > > http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-weeks-wave-protocol-summit-updates.html > > > > We are looking forward to your feedback and suggestions. > > > > By the way, if you're looking to learn more about the technology related > to > > wave, you can see the videos and presentations from the recent Wave > Summit > > in: https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+rwFyiw47A > > > > Kind regards, > > -Dan, on behalf of the Wave Community > > > > P.S. For those on the wave-protocol Google Group (that aren't yet on > > general@incubator.apache.org), please participate in this discussion > > by sending a message to general-subscribe at incubator dot apache dot org > > > > > > Apache Wave Proposal (Apache Incubator) > > > > = Abstract = > > > > Apache Wave is the project where wave technology is developed at Apache. > > Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the name of the main product at the moment, which > is > > a server that hosts and federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and > > provides a rich web client. This project also includes an implementation > of > > the Wave Federation protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems > > (such as multiple interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > > > = Proposal = > > > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich > communication. > > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. > > > > WIAB is a server that hosts waves. The best analogy for this is a mail > > server with a web client. WIAB is comprised of a few high-level > components: > > the client and the server. They have the following major functionality > > (though this is not an exhaustive list): > > > > * Client > > *A dynamic web client for users to create, edit, and search waves. Users > > can access this client by directly visiting the server in a browser. > > * Gadgets provide the ability to insert, view, and modify the UI -- > > exposing the Wave Gadgets API ( > > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/gadgets/guide.html) > > * A console client that can create and edit waves via a > command-line-like > > interface. > > * Server > > * Hosts and stores waves. WIAB comes with a default storage mechanism. > The > > administrators of the server may configure it to use alternative storage > > mechanisms. > > * Indexing, allowing for searching the waves a user has access to. > > * Basic authentication, configurable to delegate to other systems. > > * Federation, allowing separate Wave in a Box servers to communicate > with > > each other using the Wave Federation Protocol ( > > http://www.waveprotocol.org/federation). > > * Robots, using the Wave Robots API, ( > > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/robots/) may interact with > waves > > on a WIAB instance. > > > > = Background = > > > > Wave expresses a new metaphor for communication: hosted conversations. > This > > was created by Lars and Jens Rasmussen after observation of people's use > of > > many separate forms of communication to get something done, e.g, email, > > chat, docs, blogs, twitter, etc. > > > > The vision has always been to better the way people communicate and > > collaborate. Building open protocols and sharing code available in an > open > > and free way is a critical part of that vision. Anyone should be able to > > bring up their own wave server and communicate with others (much like > SMTP). > > > > We hope this project will allow everyone to easily gain the benefits of > Wave > > with a standard implementation of Wave – in a box. > > > > = Rationale = > > > > Wave has shown it excels at small group collaboration when hosted by > Google. > > Although Wave will not continue as a standalone Google product, there is > a > > lot of interest from many organizatio
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: >> The premise of this discussion is that running Apache projects are >> *permitted* to engage in real-time communications, so long as they >> take due care to avoid community problems of exclusion and closed >> decision making. > > Did you see Greg's e-mail? Noel, I very possibly lost one or more messages in the torrent. I seem to have missed that one. Apologies, benson. > > "Just bring a summary of discussion points back to the list, along with any > recommendations. The list can then sort through it and make decisions." > > Decisions are not made except on the mailing lists. If it starts to seem > that people are being excluded from being an effective part of a decision > process, curtail or modify the back-channel communications. > >> We all want strong communities that are inclusive and open. We all recognize >> that real-time communications pose risks to that. > > +1 > > FWIW, ApacheDS and Geronimo had (possibly still have) *very* active IRC > channels (logged) where people talked in real-time, just as they might at a > Hack-a-Thon. > > --- Noel > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Accept Wave for incubation
Ian, Cool -- I imagine this project could be rather useful for some of your education projects. -Dan On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 3:41 AM, Ian Boston wrote: > +1 > Would be happy to help of you need any (and if I can find time) > Ian > > On 23 Nov 2010, at 20:16, Dan Peterson wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > We'd like to propose Wave for entry into the ASF incubator. > > > > The draft proposal is available at: > > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WaveProposal > > (for your convenience, a snapshot is also copied below) > > > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich > communication. > > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. Wave in a Box (WIAB) is > the > > name of the main product at the moment, which is a server that hosts and > > federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and provides a rich web client. > > This project also includes an implementation of the Wave Federation > > protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems (such as multiple > > interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > > > As a result of the recent Wave Summit, beyond growing a few new > committers, > > we've put together the following proposal for migrating the community > into > > the ASF incubator. More details on the summit & Wave in a Box progress in > > this blogpost: > > > http://googlewavedev.blogspot.com/2010/11/this-weeks-wave-protocol-summit-updates.html > > > > We are looking forward to your feedback and suggestions. > > > > By the way, if you're looking to learn more about the technology related > to > > wave, you can see the videos and presentations from the recent Wave > Summit > > in: https://wave.google.com/wave/waveref/googlewave.com/w+rwFyiw47A > > > > Kind regards, > > -Dan, on behalf of the Wave Community > > > > P.S. For those on the wave-protocol Google Group (that aren't yet on > > general@incubator.apache.org), please participate in this discussion > > by sending a message to general-subscribe at incubator dot apache dot org > > > > > > Apache Wave Proposal (Apache Incubator) > > > > = Abstract = > > > > Apache Wave is the project where wave technology is developed at Apache. > > Wave in a Box (WIAB) is the name of the main product at the moment, which > is > > a server that hosts and federates waves, supports extensive APIs, and > > provides a rich web client. This project also includes an implementation > of > > the Wave Federation protocol, to enable federated collaboration systems > > (such as multiple interoperable Wave In a Box instances). > > > > = Proposal = > > > > A wave is a hosted, live, concurrent data structure for rich > communication. > > It can be used like email, chat, or a document. > > > > WIAB is a server that hosts waves. The best analogy for this is a mail > > server with a web client. WIAB is comprised of a few high-level > components: > > the client and the server. They have the following major functionality > > (though this is not an exhaustive list): > > > > * Client > > *A dynamic web client for users to create, edit, and search waves. Users > > can access this client by directly visiting the server in a browser. > > * Gadgets provide the ability to insert, view, and modify the UI -- > > exposing the Wave Gadgets API ( > > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/gadgets/guide.html) > > * A console client that can create and edit waves via a > command-line-like > > interface. > > * Server > > * Hosts and stores waves. WIAB comes with a default storage mechanism. > The > > administrators of the server may configure it to use alternative storage > > mechanisms. > > * Indexing, allowing for searching the waves a user has access to. > > * Basic authentication, configurable to delegate to other systems. > > * Federation, allowing separate Wave in a Box servers to communicate > with > > each other using the Wave Federation Protocol ( > > http://www.waveprotocol.org/federation). > > * Robots, using the Wave Robots API, ( > > http://code.google.com/apis/wave/extensions/robots/) may interact with > waves > > on a WIAB instance. > > > > = Background = > > > > Wave expresses a new metaphor for communication: hosted conversations. > This > > was created by Lars and Jens Rasmussen after observation of people's use > of > > many separate forms of communication to get something done, e.g, email, > > chat, docs, blogs, twitter, etc. > > > > The vision has always been to better the way people communicate and > > collaborate. Building open protocols and sharing code available in an > open > > and free way is a critical part of that vision. Anyone should be able to > > bring up their own wave server and communicate with others (much like > SMTP). > > > > We hope this project will allow everyone to easily gain the benefits of > Wave > > with a standard implementation of Wave – in a box. > > > > = Rationale = > > > > Wave has shown it excels at small group collaboration when hosted by > Google. > > Although Wave will not continue as a standalone Google produc
RE: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
There's something we need to watch out for here about how the incubator works. The incubator is a place for podling members to learn, and learning is something *they* do. Our part is to provide encouragement and guidance as appropriate, and to allow podlings to make mistakes. That is an important part of learning. I sometimes feel we can be a bit to heavy handed on this list. Sure, give folks the benefit of our experience. But there's nothing like someone shouting at you for feeling excluded from a decision to make you realise that that conference call was not a good idea. In the end, the point of judgement is at the point of attempting graduation. Before that, we need to give podlings the space to learn, and that involves giving them the space to push the bounds of our community taboos (realtime comms, svn vs git, etc, etc). That's how folks really learn stuff, not just by being told something again and again. Upayavira On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 13:13 -0500, "Noel J. Bergman" wrote: > > The premise of this discussion is that running Apache projects are > > *permitted* to engage in real-time communications, so long as they > > take due care to avoid community problems of exclusion and closed > > decision making. > > Did you see Greg's e-mail? > > "Just bring a summary of discussion points back to the list, along with > any recommendations. The list can then sort through it and make > decisions." > > Decisions are not made except on the mailing lists. If it starts to seem > that people are being excluded from being an effective part of a decision > process, curtail or modify the back-channel communications. > > > We all want strong communities that are inclusive and open. We all > > recognize that real-time communications pose risks to that. > > +1 > > FWIW, ApacheDS and Geronimo had (possibly still have) *very* active IRC > channels (logged) where people talked in real-time, just as they might at > a Hack-a-Thon. > > --- Noel > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
Hi folks, could you stop believing in a conspiracy taking place at the Apache Isis incubator project where a bunch of Isis member plus a few obscure mentors are trying to subvert the Apache Software Foundation by having a Skype session?! Get real - some of the concerns are justified and well understood but this is it as far as I'm concerned. But if Dan Haywood organizes a Skype meeting to introduce the committers and explains the Isis architectures than this is a good thing and I'm still supporting it. And as mentioned before - feel free to participate at Apache Isis to have your own opinion instead of showing signs of knee-jerk repulsion. Cheers, Siegfried Goeschl Apache Isis Mentor On 11/24/10 9:06 PM, Upayavira wrote: There's something we need to watch out for here about how the incubator works. The incubator is a place for podling members to learn, and learning is something *they* do. Our part is to provide encouragement and guidance as appropriate, and to allow podlings to make mistakes. That is an important part of learning. I sometimes feel we can be a bit to heavy handed on this list. Sure, give folks the benefit of our experience. But there's nothing like someone shouting at you for feeling excluded from a decision to make you realise that that conference call was not a good idea. In the end, the point of judgement is at the point of attempting graduation. Before that, we need to give podlings the space to learn, and that involves giving them the space to push the bounds of our community taboos (realtime comms, svn vs git, etc, etc). That's how folks really learn stuff, not just by being told something again and again. Upayavira On Wed, 24 Nov 2010 13:13 -0500, "Noel J. Bergman" wrote: The premise of this discussion is that running Apache projects are *permitted* to engage in real-time communications, so long as they take due care to avoid community problems of exclusion and closed decision making. Did you see Greg's e-mail? "Just bring a summary of discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations. The list can then sort through it and make decisions." Decisions are not made except on the mailing lists. If it starts to seem that people are being excluded from being an effective part of a decision process, curtail or modify the back-channel communications. We all want strong communities that are inclusive and open. We all recognize that real-time communications pose risks to that. +1 FWIW, ApacheDS and Geronimo had (possibly still have) *very* active IRC channels (logged) where people talked in real-time, just as they might at a Hack-a-Thon. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
On 11/24/10 7:13 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: The premise of this discussion is that running Apache projects are *permitted* to engage in real-time communications, so long as they take due care to avoid community problems of exclusion and closed decision making. Did you see Greg's e-mail? "Just bring a summary of discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations. The list can then sort through it and make decisions." Decisions are not made except on the mailing lists. If it starts to seem that people are being excluded from being an effective part of a decision process, curtail or modify the back-channel communications. We all want strong communities that are inclusive and open. We all recognize that real-time communications pose risks to that. +1 FWIW, ApacheDS and Geronimo had (possibly still have) *very* active IRC channels (logged) where people talked in real-time, just as they might at a Hack-a-Thon. Talking about ApacheDS, yes, we *do* use IRC actively. This is for us the main stream when we are working on some part of the server, plus a way to have a semi-F2F discussion about technical points. But this is like if you are working in an office in front of a collegue : most of the time, you don't chit-chat, you work. And when it comes to make a decision impacting the whole project, then the discussion is moved to the ML. So why are we using IRC for ? Mainly for technical discussions. As an example, here is a short snippet : ... elecharny: kayyagari: I'm wondering if we coudn't describe the tests using JSON [6:38pm] kayyagari: hmm, am thinking of automatic pdu generation in tests for sequences that use components [6:38pm] kayyagari: so only the lowest components need to be tested with hand crafted PDUs [6:40pm] kayyagari: and cause lowest components definitely be small in size [6:40pm] kayyagari: (atleast that is the case so far) [6:45pm] elecharny: what is important is to test that PDU don't crash when there are some missing optional elements [6:45pm] elecharny: the lower components have been quite well tested [6:46pm] elecharny: the main problem with test generation is to write the PUD by hand, [6:46pm] elecharny: and to compute the lengths [6:46pm] elecharny: one thing we can do is to use the DERxxx classes we have in the project [6:47pm] elecharny: you can create a PDU using them, with no issues like creating the lengths [6:47pm] kayyagari: ahah [6:47pm] kayyagari: am trying to computelength() and then encode them to a temporary buffer and later push it to the main buf [6:47pm] elecharny: you can do that [6:47pm] elecharny: otherwise, you can also do : [6:48pm] elecharny: seq = new DERSequence(); [6:49pm] elecharny: seq.add( DerInteger.valueOf( 5 ) ); [6:49pm] elecharny: etc... [6:49pm] kayyagari: aha, will try it, this is helpful [6:49pm] elecharny: and at the end do a seq.encode( outputStream ); [6:49pm] elecharny: you'll get the PDU [6:49pm] kayyagari: cool [6:50pm] kayyagari: this is the class present in shared-ldap? [6:50pm] elecharny: but you won't be able to test cornercase like Integer with no values [6:50pm] elecharny: yes [6:50pm] kayyagari: ok [6:50pm] elecharny: in asn1.der [6:50pm] kayyagari: yeah [6:51pm] elecharny: ok, I have to run, some friends have flown from Boston to paris Nothing fancy, just raw technical convos. But very useful when you have a huge code base and you want to share some informations IRT. We tried to organize Skype sessions 4 years ago, but we never succeeded to get them lasting more than 2 or 3 weeks. The reasons are simple : - with people in South Korea, France and Florida, the TZ pb is almost impossible to solve - as the schedule was very tight, being 15 minutes late just blows the session - surprisingly, no more than 15% of the world population is speaking a fluent english. That does not help when on skype - You always have to find someone to report what has been said, and trust me, a lot of input is lost in the process We decided that it was a waste of time. I still think it's a waste of time, and also a perfect way to split the community in 2 groups : - those who participate - those who are left behind and get frustrated. IRC solve some of those issues : it's easier to understand what a poor english speaker like me is typing, it's easier to get a report and move it back to the ML, and also it's easier to get the discussion on track, without the one who speak louder talking most of the time. -- Regards, Cordialement, Emmanuel Lécharny www.iktek.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] real-time communications
On 11/24/2010 3:58 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny wrote: But this is like if you are working in an office in front of a collegue : most of the time, you don't chit-chat, you work. And when it comes to make a decision impacting the whole project, then the discussion is moved to the ML. In the Jena team, several committers work in one office, I am one of the ones who doesn't - moreover, I am an 8hr time shift away. The real-time comms of the office chit-chat is simply a fact of life. I guess clarity about what the risks are and how we should address them would be useful. I don't think IRC or skype is much of a deal in comparison [that's a technical comment about bandwidth, not a complaint about my colleagues' behavior] Jeremy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
