Re: [DISCUSS] What to do with long incubating projects?
One idea is to schedule a review after the project has been in the incubator longer than the median time (say after 2 years). Deep-dive into what is going right and wrong, identify things that can be fixed, and set targets. And schedule another review a year later. Or schedule a vote to retire. One might even do this review (gasp!) over Zoom, so that people can ask questions and have them answered in real time. It sounds shockingly invasive, considering we at Apache tend to do everything asynchronously. But it's better than the alternative, which is a slow death as mentors and initial committers drift away. Julian On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 12:27 PM Justin Mclean wrote: > > Hi, > > Looking at the longest incubating projects, one has graduated and needs some > cleanup, one had a reboot, one is discussing a reboot, and several have roll > calls in progress or are discussing retirement. However there are two or > three other projects that either should retire or graduate and have been > incubating for far too long. > > But taking a step back what can we do to make projects life though the > incubator shorter? Would having more resources help? (If so what resources?) > What else might we be able to do - offer training for instance? > > Kind Regards, > Justin > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] What to do with long incubating projects?
On 2022-10-18 14:34, Julian Hyde wrote: One idea is to schedule a review after the project has been in the incubator longer than the median time (say after 2 years). Deep-dive into what is going right and wrong, identify things that can be fixed, and set targets. And schedule another review a year later. Or schedule a vote to retire. One might even do this review (gasp!) over Zoom, so that people can ask questions and have them answered in real time. Brainstorming etc in a synchronous way is totally fine, as long as it is open and scheduled in an inclusive manner with an exhaustive summary to the mailing list afterwards. The primary rule about asynchronicity concerns decisions and the data that flow to and from those decisions. The rule "if it didn't happen on the mailing list..." is essentially two parts: 1. Everyone must be allowed to participate in shaping the project 2. All decisions and the inputs that shaped that MUST be archived on the mailing list for provenance/governance to work as intended. I am satisfied that having a zoom meeting or whatever (slack huddle??) would be just fine here. Our board of directors also conduct their meetings via video :) It sounds shockingly invasive, considering we at Apache tend to do everything asynchronously. But it's better than the alternative, which is a slow death as mentors and initial committers drift away. Julian On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 12:27 PM Justin Mclean wrote: Hi, Looking at the longest incubating projects, one has graduated and needs some cleanup, one had a reboot, one is discussing a reboot, and several have roll calls in progress or are discussing retirement. However there are two or three other projects that either should retire or graduate and have been incubating for far too long. But taking a step back what can we do to make projects life though the incubator shorter? Would having more resources help? (If so what resources?) What else might we be able to do - offer training for instance? Kind Regards, Justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] What to do with long incubating projects?
> One might even do this review (gasp!) over Zoom, so that people can ask questions and have them answered in real time + 1 Julian. I appreciate this. I'm on one of these projects (Heron) that has been in the incubator for far too long. I think where Heron fell short in its journey was the steep learning curve it takes to build, maintain, and use Heron which caused our community to dwindle over time. So in Heron's case, I don't feel it's anything that happened in the incubator. It's mainly the complexity of maintenance. On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 2:35 PM Julian Hyde wrote: > One idea is to schedule a review after the project has been in the > incubator longer than the median time (say after 2 years). Deep-dive > into what is going right and wrong, identify things that can be fixed, > and set targets. And schedule another review a year later. Or schedule > a vote to retire. > > One might even do this review (gasp!) over Zoom, so that people can > ask questions and have them answered in real time. > > It sounds shockingly invasive, considering we at Apache tend to do > everything asynchronously. But it's better than the alternative, which > is a slow death as mentors and initial committers drift away. > > Julian > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 12:27 PM Justin Mclean > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Looking at the longest incubating projects, one has graduated and needs > some cleanup, one had a reboot, one is discussing a reboot, and several > have roll calls in progress or are discussing retirement. However there are > two or three other projects that either should retire or graduate and have > been incubating for far too long. > > > > But taking a step back what can we do to make projects life though the > incubator shorter? Would having more resources help? (If so what > resources?) What else might we be able to do - offer training for instance? > > > > Kind Regards, > > Justin > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >
Re: [DISCUSS] What to do with long incubating projects?
I've been wondering about this as well. It seems that we can have a rather mature project still incubating after a number of years. We can have active consumers relying on it but the momentum of the original project and maintainers waned. Multiple external forks have been made with the inability to get contributions accepted. In the example of Livy, action was triggered by the threat of retirement. We certainly need an earlier flag than this. Perhaps a specific trigger in the board report reminder email for podlings that are getting long in the tooth that they should include various metrics: * Graduation Status * Community issues for both users and maintainers - what are the barriers of entry for each - complexity in maintenance, language use, continued relevance, etc * Are there known forks with extensions that would have rather contributed back? Based on this, some intervention with new Mentor/s to assess and guide can be advised? Unfortunately, this would require some oversight from the IPMC to identify these podlings before they get too far down the abandoned road. Maybe this is a simple report to see how long they have been incubating though? On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 3:55 PM Josh Fischer wrote: > > One might even do this review (gasp!) over Zoom, so that people can > ask questions and have them answered in real time > > + 1 Julian. I appreciate this. > > I'm on one of these projects (Heron) that has been in the incubator for far > too long. I think where Heron fell short in its journey was the steep > learning curve it takes to build, maintain, and use Heron which caused our > community to dwindle over time. So in Heron's case, I don't feel it's > anything that happened in the incubator. It's mainly the complexity of > maintenance. > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 2:35 PM Julian Hyde wrote: > > > One idea is to schedule a review after the project has been in the > > incubator longer than the median time (say after 2 years). Deep-dive > > into what is going right and wrong, identify things that can be fixed, > > and set targets. And schedule another review a year later. Or schedule > > a vote to retire. > > > > One might even do this review (gasp!) over Zoom, so that people can > > ask questions and have them answered in real time. > > > > It sounds shockingly invasive, considering we at Apache tend to do > > everything asynchronously. But it's better than the alternative, which > > is a slow death as mentors and initial committers drift away. > > > > Julian > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 12:27 PM Justin Mclean > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Looking at the longest incubating projects, one has graduated and needs > > some cleanup, one had a reboot, one is discussing a reboot, and several > > have roll calls in progress or are discussing retirement. However there > are > > two or three other projects that either should retire or graduate and > have > > been incubating for far too long. > > > > > > But taking a step back what can we do to make projects life though the > > incubator shorter? Would having more resources help? (If so what > > resources?) What else might we be able to do - offer training for > instance? > > > > > > Kind Regards, > > > Justin > > > > > > > > > - > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > >
Re: [DISCUSS] What to do with long incubating projects?
Hi, > * Graduation Status This is included in the current report. > * Community issues for both users and maintainers > - what are the barriers of entry for each - complexity in maintenance, > language use, continued relevance, etc This should also be in the reports but is perhaps not always included. Some projects just copy and paste the previous report and do not fill in the full details all the time, and some projects don’t like to publicise some issues. Some project set their committer bar too high, which can discourage contribution. In theory this is were the mentors can help. > Maybe this is a simple report to see how long they have been incubating > though? We have reports that do mention how old a podling is so that is visible. Kind Regards, Justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] What to do with long incubating projects?
Is there a maximum time for incubation? Target? I have not read incubator docs closely. I could also see a dashboard with milestones [ various requirements for graduation ] at various timelines, and whether projects are ahead/behind 'schedule'. On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 2:34 PM Justin Mclean wrote: > Hi, > > > * Graduation Status > > This is included in the current report. > > > * Community issues for both users and maintainers > > - what are the barriers of entry for each - complexity in maintenance, > > language use, continued relevance, etc > > This should also be in the reports but is perhaps not always included. > Some projects just copy and paste the previous report and do not fill in > the full details all the time, and some projects don’t like to publicise > some issues. Some project set their committer bar too high, which can > discourage contribution. In theory this is were the mentors can help. > > > Maybe this is a simple report to see how long they have been incubating > > though? > > We have reports that do mention how old a podling is so that is visible. > > Kind Regards, > Justin > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >
Re: [DISCUSS] What to do with long incubating projects?
Hi, > Is there a maximum time for incubation? Target? I have not read incubator > docs closely. Not really but we expect a projects to exit in 1-3 years, and at 4-5 years we tend to ask them to retire, but it does vary. > I could also see a dashboard with milestones [ various requirements for > graduation ] at various timelines, and whether projects are ahead/behind > 'schedule’. I like the idea but it might hard to gauge - the Incubator podling reports does have a general progress indicator. Kind Regards, Justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] What to do with long incubating projects?
On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 7:37 PM Justin Mclean wrote: > > Hi, > > > Is there a maximum time for incubation? Target? I have not read incubator > > docs closely. > > Not really but we expect a projects to exit in 1-3 years, and at 4-5 years we > tend to ask them to retire, but it does vary. > > > I could also see a dashboard with milestones [ various requirements for > > graduation ] at various timelines, and whether projects are ahead/behind > > 'schedule’. > > I like the idea but it might hard to gauge - the Incubator podling reports > does have a general progress indicator. For those programs that have been incubating for more than two years, would it be better for the mentor to sign off with how close the current state of the community is to graduation? The status quo is that we rarely see in the reports what the specific challenges are for podlings to graduate. > > Kind Regards, > Justin > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > -- Best wishes！ CalvinKirs - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] What to do with long incubating projects?
Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 19, 2022, at 5:38 PM, Justin Mclean wrote: > > Hi, > >> Is there a maximum time for incubation? Target? I have not read incubator >> docs closely. > > Not really but we expect a projects to exit in 1-3 years, and at 4-5 years we > tend to ask them to retire, but it does vary. > >> I could also see a dashboard with milestones [ various requirements for >> graduation ] at various timelines, and whether projects are ahead/behind >> 'schedule’. > > I like the idea but it might hard to gauge - the Incubator podling reports > does have a general progress indicator. You’ve forgotten about the clutch report. https://incubator.apache.org/clutch/ Best Regards, Dave > > Kind Regards, > Justin > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >
Re: [DISCUSS] What to do with long incubating projects?
Hi, > For those programs that have been incubating for more than two years, > would it be better for the mentor to sign off with how close the > current state of the community is to graduation? The status quo is > that we rarely see in the reports what the specific challenges are for > podlings to graduate. The report explicitly asks for "Three most important unfinished issues to address before graduating” I’m not sure how much clearer we could be? Kine Regards, Justin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] What to do with long incubating projects?
On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 9:17 PM Justin Mclean wrote: > > Hi, > > > For those programs that have been incubating for more than two years, > > would it be better for the mentor to sign off with how close the > > current state of the community is to graduation? The status quo is > > that we rarely see in the reports what the specific challenges are for > > podlings to graduate. > > The report explicitly asks for "Three most important unfinished issues to > address before graduating” I’m not sure how much clearer we could be? Frankly, it's hard for me to tell from most of the reports what the specific issues are that they face? For example: Growing the community: more committers, more use cases. This is a long term goal and for me, my focus is on how many active PPMCs, the percentage of companies behind the PPMCs, etc. Will this clog up graduation? It would be better if the instructor could actively participate in the discussion of the report. > > Kine Regards, > Justin > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > -- Best wishes！ CalvinKirs - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
