Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

[costinm]

On Thu, 2 May 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

> > So much like xml.apache.org deals with XML, db.apache.org will deal
> > with databases (maybe even collaborate with xml.apache.org/xindice in
> > future).
>
> So I propose that we put together a proposal for a db.apache.org.  We should

I don't believe this comes even close to a db.apache.org - ObjectBridge
still has to prove itself as a jakarta project, and most other db 
projects are not even there.

As I said, I'm perfectly fine with a project just for ObjectBridge.
The only reason for a larger scope ( db.jakarta.org ) was to have 
a larger community, maybe get more code shared and bring more light
to the other db technologies in jakarta. 


Costin




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Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

[Peter Donald]

On Fri, 3 May 2002 11:44, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 5/2/02 6:33 PM, "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > OJB deserves to be a peer to other projects alongside ant, avalon, struts
> > etc
>
> For future reference, can we quantify this 'deservation' of peerage?

It should be size of developer community, size of codebase etc. Alternatively 
you just have to be able to influence the people who vote.

> I don't know how big
> the OJB community is, where it's being used, etc. 

From what I hear (mainly from EJB peeps), OJB is all good and fairly popular. 
If the torque people also praise it then I figure it must be decent.

> (I know Poolman's is
> huge, but that doesn't seem to matter - the # of developers seems to be the
> gating factor...)

The ability to support/grow a community would be biggest factor IMO. The 
larger the number of developers the greater the ability to grow a community. 
However if the codebase is too small or too specialized or too good then it 
will never attract community. If it is a platform rather than a product that 
is also key to its success.

> > So much like xml.apache.org deals with XML, db.apache.org will deal
> > with databases (maybe even collaborate with xml.apache.org/xindice in
> > future).
>
> This would be great, and would certainly satisfy the 'needs' that motivate
> me to propose this.
>
> However, we have a bit of chicken and egg to deal with.  We could go to the
> Apache board and ask to start it, hoping that something stumbles in, or
> take a small pause with OJB and try to work out a proposal, bundling
> several things together to make a new Apache subproject.  It would make a
> stronger proposal.

It comes down to the OJB committers. If they want to do it then there is very 
little standing in the way. I doubt the board would object which means that 
there just needs to be some volunteers from other apache projects to help set 
it all up. Mainly this means making sure the Apache "spirit" is instilled in 
the new PMC, helping with infrastructure (gump, website etc) and advertising.

Overtime it may also mean advocacy (like getting cooperation from ozone and 
xindice, etc or even bringing them to project). And dont forget shameless 
self promotion.

In the end I think it would be best move for OJB group (much better awareness 
and promotion and in the end development) however it comes down to whether 
they want to do it and if there is enough Apache volunteers to get it going. 

> 2) We see if any parts of Jakarta are willing to volunteer to join.  There
> is Torque, parts of avalon, commons dbcp.  Must be more...

I would not bother with the parts from commons or avalon at this stage. Torque 
could be interesting though, as would poolman ;)

> Is this moving in the right direction?

I think so. But it is up to someone volunteering to do the legwork. Talk to 
the OJB guys and see if they want to do so. Do the same to torque peeps. If 
all is good then someone will need to help them set up PMC and do all the 
infrastructure stuff.

If you need volunteers I will help integrating gump and also help with their 
website but have no time for politics or coding on their stuff.

Or to put it simply if you want it done and OJB wants it done then it will get 
done - otherwise it wont, simple as that really.

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Peter Donald


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Re: BTW - You guys aren't so funny.

[Peter Donald]

On Fri, 3 May 2002 10:45, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Just thought I would let you know.

I thought they were - just not in the haha sense :)

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Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

[Bill Barker]

- Original Message -
From: "Stefan Bodewig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?


> On Thu, 02 May 2002, Geir Magnusson, Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Costin suggested, and I supported, that a subproject of wider scope
> > be created to allow the collection of similar technologies into one
> > larger subcommunity.
>
> First of all, I like the idea.  But in general I think this should not
> be something we (we as in general@jakarta) should decide but the
> committers of the current (sub(sub))projects that would make up this
> new subproject had to decide.
>
> If the people working on Torque, commons-dbcp or the Avalon database
> stuff (I'm sure I'm missing something) as well as the people of
> Onjectbridge want to create this new subproject, I'll be all for it -
> but it should be their decision IMHO.
>

+1
Unless Costin's proposal is to kick it up to the Apache PMC, then all the
Jakarta PMC has is a straight up/down vote.  The scope of the project is up
to the committers on the project, not the PMC.  If ${PMC-member} doesn't
like the direction, then they can work to get committer status and change
it.  Jakarta isn't managed from the top-down.

If Costin's proposal is to kick it up to the Apache PMC, then that
automatically takes it outside of the scope of general@jakarta. So it is
still a straight up/down vote.

Just my $0.02.

> Stefan
>
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Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

[Stefan Bodewig]

On Thu, 02 May 2002, Geir Magnusson, Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Costin suggested, and I supported, that a subproject of wider scope
> be created to allow the collection of similar technologies into one
> larger subcommunity.

First of all, I like the idea.  But in general I think this should not
be something we (we as in general@jakarta) should decide but the
committers of the current (sub(sub))projects that would make up this
new subproject had to decide.

If the people working on Torque, commons-dbcp or the Avalon database
stuff (I'm sure I'm missing something) as well as the people of
Onjectbridge want to create this new subproject, I'll be all for it -
but it should be their decision IMHO.

Stefan

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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Sam Ruby]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>
> Isn't XSLT all about transformations from one DTD to another?
>
> What is the big deal about having different DTD's?

Here's everything you need to know to build Ant:

   http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/~checkout~/jakarta-ant/build.xml

I guess there is no need to build a maven descriptor for Ant then?  Sorry,
but it is not that simple.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 5/2/02 7:42 PM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> but there must have been a reason why a different DTD was
> chosen than Gump's.  I made an effort to document the Gump data definitions
> and there certainly is plenty of instance data to look at.  Tell me what to
> change, tell me what's wrong, or simply tell me they suck.  All I ask is
> that you don't continue to ignore this work.

Isn't XSLT all about transformations from one DTD to another?

What is the big deal about having different DTD's?

-jon


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

Gee thanks Costin. How to alienate a group of people in one easy lesson.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


   
   
 To: Jakarta General List 
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 cc:   
   
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On Thu, 2 May 2002, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:

> As I tried to point out in my parenthetical remark -- it wasn't the Maven
> committers who started this whole thing ... it was our favorite
iconoclast
> himself (Jon), who seems to believe that anything that makes him happy
> should make everybody happy, and anyone with contrary opinions is just
not
> with it enough to be worthy of being listened to.

And, to give Jon credit where it deserves, he manages to build communities
and get people involved.

Many times I (seriously) considered Jon is playing some sophisticated
psychological games - by beeing so 'inpolite' ( to say the least )
and unreasonable he can get people who wouldn't give a damn about
the whole issue to become involved and symphatise with Jon's target.

So Centipede people should thank him - he built awarness and support for
them, while discrediting Maven and making maven commiters look bad,
by association.


Costin


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))

[Glenn A. McAllister]

On 2 May 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

> Okay now I'm really done with the conversation  

If only you were...

Glenn McAllister
SOMA Networks, Inc.



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Re: You guys are so funny.

[costinm]

On Thu, 2 May 2002, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:

> As I tried to point out in my parenthetical remark -- it wasn't the Maven
> committers who started this whole thing ... it was our favorite iconoclast
> himself (Jon), who seems to believe that anything that makes him happy
> should make everybody happy, and anyone with contrary opinions is just not
> with it enough to be worthy of being listened to.

And, to give Jon credit where it deserves, he manages to build communities
and get people involved. 

Many times I (seriously) considered Jon is playing some sophisticated
psychological games - by beeing so 'inpolite' ( to say the least ) 
and unreasonable he can get people who wouldn't give a damn about
the whole issue to become involved and symphatise with Jon's target.

So Centipede people should thank him - he built awarness and support for 
them, while discrediting Maven and making maven commiters look bad,
by association. 


Costin


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Namespaces and Transforms

[dion]

Sam,

I hear you. I understand where you're coming from. I can also see that
there are diverging ideas on project descriptors which have been solved in
two ways:
1) Augment with namespace definitions, and
2) Generate from different document.

The bottom line is that as long as they both work, who cares how the end
result is achieved.

I'd imagine most people who've written code generators have never written a
java compiler.

I'd hope from these exchanges it's clear that we're simply not ignoring the
work. We're working with Gump. If it turns out one descriptor is a simple
transformation of the other, then it'll be easy to adopt Gumps descriptor,
if not, we can propose the changes back to Gump/Alexandria. It may be that
Gump and Maven don't have the same need for the project information, since
they do different things with a 'project', e.g. look @ Ant's 'project
descriptor'.

At the moment, we've not gone the extend with namespaces way, but it really
shouldn't matter.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


   
   
"Sam Ruby" 
   
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05/03/02 12:42 
   
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dIon Gillard wrote:
>
> I don't see how we can be more accomodating other than downloading,
> installing and running our own Gump. From talking to Vincent on that,
it's
> not a simple process, hence we are relying on the Gump developers to tell
> us where we're going wrong.

Look at it from my perspective for a moment.

I took initiative.  I build a working system.  I provided some
documentation.  I've responded when people have asked for features like the
ability to control their own descriptors.  I've asked for feedback.  I've
quickly given commit access to anybody who even expresses the slightest
interest and has even some minimal competency.

What feedback do I get?

> We've chosen to generate a descriptor rather than use namespaces, but
other
> than that, I can't tell why you're complaining - throw us a bone

Imagine somebody writing a code generator, never having installed a
compiler.

Let's be clear - I am not asking anybody sully their hands by actually
running Gump, but there must have been a reason why a different DTD was
chosen than Gump's.  I made an effort to document the Gump data definitions
and there certainly is plenty of instance data to look at.  Tell me what to
change, tell me what's wrong, or simply tell me they suck.  All I ask is
that you don't continue to ignore this work.

Let me be clear: I don't give a rat's behind whether the project
definitions are processed using XSLT, DVSL, or C#.  But is it too much to
ask that somebody showing at least some token interest in converging on the
data definitions?

- Sam Ruby


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Sam Ruby]

dIon Gillard wrote:
>
> I don't see how we can be more accomodating other than downloading,
> installing and running our own Gump. From talking to Vincent on that,
it's
> not a simple process, hence we are relying on the Gump developers to tell
> us where we're going wrong.

Look at it from my perspective for a moment.

I took initiative.  I build a working system.  I provided some
documentation.  I've responded when people have asked for features like the
ability to control their own descriptors.  I've asked for feedback.  I've
quickly given commit access to anybody who even expresses the slightest
interest and has even some minimal competency.

What feedback do I get?

> We've chosen to generate a descriptor rather than use namespaces, but
other
> than that, I can't tell why you're complaining - throw us a bone

Imagine somebody writing a code generator, never having installed a
compiler.

Let's be clear - I am not asking anybody sully their hands by actually
running Gump, but there must have been a reason why a different DTD was
chosen than Gump's.  I made an effort to document the Gump data definitions
and there certainly is plenty of instance data to look at.  Tell me what to
change, tell me what's wrong, or simply tell me they suck.  All I ask is
that you don't continue to ignore this work.

Let me be clear: I don't give a rat's behind whether the project
definitions are processed using XSLT, DVSL, or C#.  But is it too much to
ask that somebody showing at least some token interest in converging on the
data definitions?

- Sam Ruby


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[James Taylor]

> Sam, I asked yesterday or the day before on this list what needs to be
> done. I'm waiting on you for a reply. I'm an active developer on maven.
> Yesterday we added the nag tags in that were requested.

Actually (to keep everything honest) they didn't quite work out the way
I expected and have been removed. Still looking at making that work
though.

-- jt


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Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 5/2/02 6:33 PM, "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> OJB deserves to be a peer to other projects alongside ant, avalon, struts etc

For future reference, can we quantify this 'deservation' of peerage?  I do
know what you mean intuitively but there are all sorts of great things
around, but I don't know how to measure 'deserves'.  I kind of want to
reserve the notion of 'deserve' for things like Cactus which started in
commons (sort of :) and grew to a large community.  I don't know how big the
OJB community is, where it's being used, etc.  (I know Poolman's is huge,
but that doesn't seem to matter - the # of developers seems to be the gating
factor...)

I guess the real question I have is what does it mean to be a 'peer'? Is it

1) location on jakarta web page?  No problem. We can do that.

2) Independence of committers to do as they please with their project?  No
problem - that's a given.

3) ?

(And I recognize that the components of Jakarta commons are not peers, of
course...)


> 
> A somewhat better idea IMO would be to use OJB + Torque as a trampoline for a
> new top-level project "db.apache.org" (or insert something more snappy if you
> want).

There is no way we could do that once they are here.  Once those 17 people
are Apache committers in their own subproject, they can do as they please,
like any other subproject.  I'll be the first to defend that.


> So much like xml.apache.org deals with XML, db.apache.org will deal
> with databases (maybe even collaborate with xml.apache.org/xindice in
> future).

This would be great, and would certainly satisfy the 'needs' that motivate
me to propose this.

However, we have a bit of chicken and egg to deal with.  We could go to the
Apache board and ask to start it, hoping that something stumbles in, or take
a small pause with OJB and try to work out a proposal, bundling several
things together to make a new Apache subproject.  It would make a stronger
proposal.

OJB seems to be in no danger - if we waited a little while (a few days?  A
week?), it wouldn't make a difference.

So I propose that we put together a proposal for a db.apache.org.  We should

1) see if the OJB community wishes to be a part of it, actually the
'marquee' or 'anchor' project.   If not, no foul - we continue with the
proposal to be a subproject of Jakarta.

2) We see if any parts of Jakarta are willing to volunteer to join.  There
is Torque, parts of avalon, commons dbcp.  Must be more...


If there is interest, I would gladly bring over Poolman with a set of 3
existing Apache committers (at least).  If this steps on Commons dbcp's
toes, I'll happy withdraw this point (although to have both would be
nice...)

Is this moving in the right direction?

geir

-- 
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

Sam,
> His experience suggests that the Krysalis, Centipede, and Forrest have
been
> very accommodating, so the ideal situation would be for an active
developer
> on Maven to step forward.
Sam, I asked yesterday or the day before on this list what needs to be
done. I'm waiting on you for a reply. I'm an active developer on maven.
Yesterday we added the nag tags in that were requested.

Again, what is needed?

I don't see how we can be more accomodating other than downloading,
installing and running our own Gump. From talking to Vincent on that, it's
not a simple process, hence we are relying on the Gump developers to tell
us where we're going wrong.

We've chosen to generate a descriptor rather than use namespaces, but other
than that, I can't tell why you're complaining - throw us a bone

--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


[snip]

His experience suggests that the Krysalis, Centipede, and Forrest have been
very accommodating, so the ideal situation would be for an active developer
on Maven to step forward.

It goes without saying that this definition should neither presume nor
preclude any technology beyond an XML parser.

 = = = = = =

So, who wants to be the next contestant?

- Sam Ruby


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Michael McCallum]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Friday, 03 May, 2002 10:00, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> explain exactly WHAT that has to do with this?  Who gives a rats behind
> about Microsoft.  (warning: irony)
Sorry my point was whomever makes the tool easier to use will be the one that is 
adopted.

I got maven up and going in five minutes because the docs are very good.

I did not get centipede up and running in five minutes because the docs are not that 
good.

Without people being able to get it running they wont get and itch and try to fix 
stuff and help.

I think ill second a previous statement lets stop flaming and just use whats easier 
for us.
It will turn out well in the end.

Michael

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Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

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aZWKNwM5nT/ldPrMQClSMok=
=BYdB
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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RE: You guys are so funny.

[Jeff Schnitzer]

> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> I really wonder why it is that all one has to do is say "Microsoft" on
> any Apache thread and they get 100 responses.  I wonder if it works
that
> way on whatever-microsoft-related-lists are out there.

Someone needs to update Ellison's Law, s/Hitler/Microsoft :-)

Jeff Schnitzer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Sam Ruby]

Jon Stevens wrote:
>
> I listen to the following:
>
>Code.
>Patches.
>Real suggestions for improvement.
>Intelligent discussion.
>
> I don't listen to the following:
>
>Flame wars about technologies used.
>Whiny people who can't learn a new technology.
>Whiny people who only use 'standards'.
>People who are clearly without a clue.
>Hypocrites.
>
> My original posting was simply trying to encourage people to adopt Maven
> because I think it is a cool technology that can save hundreds of hours of
> development time and headaches.

+1

> It can help unify us...

Bt.  Sorry, thanks for playing.  As you exit, make sure you pick up the
lovely parting gifts.

 = = = = =

Narrator voice over: previously on this thread there was an abbreviated
history of Maven.  Here is a more complete version.  It all started when
the author of this page: 
ignored a -1 of mine.  Gump was born.  It was a good idea with a ugly nasty
hack of an implementation.  Several attempts to replace it were made.  My
only request: lets agree on a common project description.  One of the more
promising efforts was Maven.  That author chose to rewrote all of the gump
descriptions to make projects subordinate to modules, then proceeded to
criticize that approach, remove Maven from Alexandria, and stop responding
to nags.

Recently the original author of Gump renewed his request for a common
project definition. The request is simple: have a core set of elements that
all tools must support, and then provide an extensibility mechanism
(perhaps through namespaces) which enables tools specific data to be added.
His experience suggests that the Krysalis, Centipede, and Forrest have been
very accommodating, so the ideal situation would be for an active developer
on Maven to step forward.

It goes without saying that this definition should neither presume nor
preclude any technology beyond an XML parser.

 = = = = = =

So, who wants to be the next contestant?

- Sam Ruby


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

So lets do it.

I'm working on the documentation everyone keeps complaining
aboutwatch the commits.

Grab a hammer and lets start talking about how to create an XSL vs DVSL
module.  I suggest a cent.

Move to krysalis discussion list for now.

I'm done here.


On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 21:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> So much so that there have been no replies to my post on
> krysalis-developers.
> 
> If you guys are so serious, how about continuing the discussion where it's
> appropriate.
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Oddly the centipede side supports collaboration
> 
> 
> On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 19:53, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 3 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > > I think I've been saying this long enough. .  MERGE MERGE MERGE!
> >
> > 
> > I can't help sitting here thinking about how the committers on projects
> > being told to "MERGE MERGE MERGE" must feel like two young adults whose
> > parents want them to get married (and have kids), but they don't even
> know
> > if they like each other yet ...
> > 
> >
> > Craig
> >
> >
> > --
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> format to java
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> -Ambassador Kosh
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

'D'
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"Andrew C. 
   
Oliver"  To: Jakarta General List 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.   
   
   
   
05/03/02 10:45 
   
AM 
   
Please respond 
   
to "Jakarta
   
General List"  
   
   
   
   
   




My understanding is that the Maven guys are totally against merging and
collaborating.  So it isn't just jon.

-Andy


On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 19:57, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 3 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > [snip]
> > As for people shoving Maven down other people's throats, I'd like to
know
> > where the Maven developers have been doing that. From what I can see
the
> > Maven developers have been fairly balanced.
> >
>
> As I tried to point out in my parenthetical remark -- it wasn't the Maven
> committers who started this whole thing ... it was our favorite
iconoclast
> himself (Jon), who seems to believe that anything that makes him happy
> should make everybody happy, and anyone with contrary opinions is just
not
> with it enough to be worthy of being listened to.
>
> Craig
>
>
> --
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

So much so that there have been no replies to my post on
krysalis-developers.

If you guys are so serious, how about continuing the discussion where it's
appropriate.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




  Oddly the centipede side supports collaboration


On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 19:53, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 3 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > > I think I've been saying this long enough. .  MERGE MERGE MERGE!
>
> 
> I can't help sitting here thinking about how the committers on projects
> being told to "MERGE MERGE MERGE" must feel like two young adults whose
> parents want them to get married (and have kids), but they don't even
know
> if they like each other yet ...
> 
>
> Craig
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>
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http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
   - fix java generics!
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Re: BTW - You guys aren't so funny.

[Conor MacNeill]

Sam Ruby wrote:

>Just thought I would let you know.
>
>- Sam Ruby
>  
>

+1





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Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

[James Taylor]

On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 17:33, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

> I hate to interrupt all the good fun over standards, bike sheds, and general
> good community feelings,  but I would like to solicit community opinion on
> something unrelated to DVSL or Jon Stevens (both of which I like, btw...)

Thank god.

> The idea would be to bring in ObjectBridge, but create a Commons-like
> environment in which other projects can be brought.   Call it DB-Commons as
> a working name.

> Anyone have any comments?

I like this idea a lot. It would be great to bring together a lot of
these different efforts and look at how they can work together. And you
would finally have an excuse to bring poolman over (yay!).

My only concern (and this is not meant as an objection) is that we be
careful not to dilute/damage the projects we bring into it. OJB is an
extensive and solid product on par with any of Jakarta's top level
projects. A lot of people feel that torque is also of the same scale.
They _can_ coexist, and work is already going on to have them work
together in sensible ways and share code (the Torque query code which is
moving to commons). 

I can see them, along with the common code they share, all our
connection pools, and so on existing as a distinct organizational unit,
but the key is co-existing. If we take a 'MERGE MERGE MERGE' attitude it
could cause more harm then good. Merging is sensible sometimes, maybe we
decide it makes sense to have only one or two connection pools rather
than four, but maybe not. There is definitely room for more than one O/R
mapper. But if they can share repetitive components and build community,
that would be exciting!

-- jt





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BTW - You guys aren't so funny.

[Sam Ruby]

Just thought I would let you know.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 5/2/02 5:49 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
>> I listen to the following:
>> 
>> Code.
>> Patches.
>> Real suggestions for improvement.
> 
> MERGE

It is your itch. Not mine.

>> Whiny people who can't learn a new technology.
> 
> I could... I just don't want to learn that particular one.  Not useful
> to me.

What did you say? I'm sorry. I wasn't listening.

>> Whiny people who only use 'standards'.
> 
> Yeah lets all *standardize* on YOUR pet projects jon.

How the f*ck did you get stuck on this 'pet project' thing?

I am not a Maven developer. I am a Maven user.

>> People who are clearly without a clue.
> 
> MERGE -- there's a clue.

Man, you are getting fleas.

-jon


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RE: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

today I do.

On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 21:01, Jeff Schnitzer wrote:
> Dude, do you really need to respond to *every single* piece of mail?
> 
> Jeff
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 5:51 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.
> > 
> > [part bazillion deleted]
> 
> --
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RE: You guys are so funny.

[Jeff Schnitzer]

Dude, do you really need to respond to *every single* piece of mail?

Jeff

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 5:51 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.
> 
> [part bazillion deleted]

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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

ant.
> 
> Talk is cheap and almost useless, as we've all heard the last two days.
> Code/Docs are far more valuable. I believe the usual way is to start with a
> cohesive proposal.
> 

agreed.  Writing docs for centipede.

> As for people shoving Maven down other people's throats, I'd like to know
> where the Maven developers have been doing that. From what I can see the
> Maven developers have been fairly balanced.
> 
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
> Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
> 
> 
> --
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> For additional commands, e-mail: 
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Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> I listen to the following:
> 
> Code.
> Patches.
> Real suggestions for improvement.

MERGE

> Intelligent discussion.
> 

duhhh

> I don't listen to the following:
> 
> Flame wars about technologies used.

so why did you start one

> Whiny people who can't learn a new technology.

I could... I just don't want to learn that particular one.  Not useful
to me.

> Whiny people who only use 'standards'.

Yeah lets all *standardize* on YOUR pet projects jon.

> People who are clearly without a clue.

MERGE -- there's a clue.

> Hypocrites.
> 
> My original posting was simply trying to encourage people to adopt Maven
> because I think it is a cool technology that can save hundreds of hours of
> development time and headaches. It can help unify us to survive the
> perceived M$ .Net invasion. It can help us gain more popularity among our
> users because our tools are easy to build and install.

And even makes pizza.  Get it to brew a good beer and I'll use it. 
Schneider Aventinus (see http://trilug.org/~acoliver for details).  That
will save me from getting too bored by this stupid "You're stupid
because you won't do things my way and want people to work together"
conversation.

> 
> -jon
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

My understanding is that the Maven guys are totally against merging and
collaborating.  So it isn't just jon.

-Andy


On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 19:57, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 3 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > [snip]
> > As for people shoving Maven down other people's throats, I'd like to know
> > where the Maven developers have been doing that. From what I can see the
> > Maven developers have been fairly balanced.
> >
> 
> As I tried to point out in my parenthetical remark -- it wasn't the Maven
> committers who started this whole thing ... it was our favorite iconoclast
> himself (Jon), who seems to believe that anything that makes him happy
> should make everybody happy, and anyone with contrary opinions is just not
> with it enough to be worthy of being listened to.
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
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Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

  Oddly the centipede side supports collaboration


On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 19:53, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, 3 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > > I think I've been saying this long enough. .  MERGE MERGE MERGE!
> 
> 
> I can't help sitting here thinking about how the committers on projects
> being told to "MERGE MERGE MERGE" must feel like two young adults whose
> parents want them to get married (and have kids), but they don't even know
> if they like each other yet ...
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
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http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
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Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 18:33, Peter Donald wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> OJB deserves to be a peer to other projects alongside ant, avalon, struts etc
> 
> A somewhat better idea IMO would be to use OJB + Torque as a trampoline for a 
> new top-level project "db.apache.org" (or insert something more snappy if you 
> want). So much like xml.apache.org deals with XML, db.apache.org will deal 
> with databases (maybe even collaborate with xml.apache.org/xindice in 
> future).
> 

I think thats a great idea.  I've long wanted to see an apache db
project for all thing db related.  I'd eventually contribute to it.  I'd
like to see a good OODB in opensource backed by apache.

> While this new db project is gestating we can cross link it extensively from 
> the jakarta website. After they get off the feet we talk to it the same way 
> we talk to xml.apache.org ?
> 

haha

> On Fri, 3 May 2002 07:33, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > I hate to interrupt all the good fun over standards, bike sheds, and
> > general good community feelings,  but I would like to solicit community
> > opinion on something unrelated to DVSL or Jon Stevens (both of which I
> > like, btw...)
> >
> > Recently, it was proposed that ObjectBridge be brought to Jakarta as a
> > subproject.
> >
> > Costin suggested, and I supported, that a subproject of wider scope be
> > created to allow the collection of similar technologies into one larger
> > subcommunity (that isn't an exact quote, but I think he'll agree in general
> > with that.)
> >
> > The idea would be to bring in ObjectBridge, but create a Commons-like
> > environment in which other projects can be brought.   Call it DB-Commons as
> > a working name.
> >
> > There are some good reasons, including community alignment, inter-project
> > synergy (there, I used the word in an Apache-related post), and ease of
> > discovery for new users and developers.
> >
> > Off the top of my head, in Jakarta we have lots of db related tools already
> > (Torque, commons-dbcp, and I am sure others...), and having a db-focused
> > subproject in which they can be brought to with a lower barrier than
> > 'fullsubproject' might be very benficial.
> >
> > We already have the successful Commons model to use as a starting point.
> >
> > Anyone have any comments?
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter Donald
> 
> 
> --
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

I really wonder why it is that all one has to do is say "Microsoft" on
any Apache thread and they get 100 responses.  I wonder if it works that
way on whatever-microsoft-related-lists are out there.

-Andy


On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 18:32, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Fri, 3 May 2002, Michael McCallum wrote:
> 
> > > I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
> > > 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
> > > get people to work togheter -  and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> > > the standards.
> > >
> > Microsoft did not get where it was by using standards. It created 
> > things which were easy for people to use and they became the de facto 
> > standards.
> 
> Microsoft get where it is in part because various Unix vendors 
> created their own competing OS versions and tried to become 
> the de facto standard. Most attempts to create 'de facto standards'
> that compete with an existing standard do fail, even for Microsoft.
> 
> 
> 
> Costin
> 
> 
> 
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> For all the nasty things Microsoft has done over the years, they have also
> been pretty good at one particular thing -- asking their customers (and
> potential customers) what they want, and listening to the answer.
> 
> It seems to me that authors of a build environment that they want
> "everyone" to use would think about going and asking the potential users
> (i.e. committers on various other projects) what their requirements are,
> before any attempt (by those authors, or by anyone else as was the case
> that started this particular flamefest) to shove it down everyone's
> throats.
> 

+1 - thats what I've been asking for this entire flamefest.  Of course
I'm one of those silly people that think collaboration is good...

> This is a characteristic of pretty much every company that gains long
> term and/or mainstream acceptance for their products.  Too bad some open
> source developers haven't learned that the same principles can apply here.
> 

+1

> > Jeff Sexton
> 
> Craig McClanahan
> 

-Andy
> 
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

And he has such a good straight man in Andrew.
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Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


   
   
"Craig R.  
   
McClanahan"  To: Jakarta General List 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.   
   
   
   
05/03/02 09:57 
   
AM 
   
Please respond 
   
to "Jakarta
   
General List"  
   
   
   
   
   






On Fri, 3 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> [snip]
> As for people shoving Maven down other people's throats, I'd like to know
> where the Maven developers have been doing that. From what I can see the
> Maven developers have been fairly balanced.
>

As I tried to point out in my parenthetical remark -- it wasn't the Maven
committers who started this whole thing ... it was our favorite iconoclast
himself (Jon), who seems to believe that anything that makes him happy
should make everybody happy, and anyone with contrary opinions is just not
with it enough to be worthy of being listened to.

Craig


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 5/2/02 4:57 PM, "Craig R. McClanahan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> As I tried to point out in my parenthetical remark -- it wasn't the Maven
> committers who started this whole thing ... it was our favorite iconoclast
> himself (Jon), who seems to believe that anything that makes him happy
> should make everybody happy, and anyone with contrary opinions is just not
> with it enough to be worthy of being listened to.
> 
> Craig

I listen to the following:

Code.
Patches.
Real suggestions for improvement.
Intelligent discussion.

I don't listen to the following:

Flame wars about technologies used.
Whiny people who can't learn a new technology.
Whiny people who only use 'standards'.
People who are clearly without a clue.
Hypocrites.

My original posting was simply trying to encourage people to adopt Maven
because I think it is a cool technology that can save hundreds of hours of
development time and headaches. It can help unify us to survive the
perceived M$ .Net invasion. It can help us gain more popularity among our
users because our tools are easy to build and install.

-jon


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Fri, 3 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> [snip]
> As for people shoving Maven down other people's throats, I'd like to know
> where the Maven developers have been doing that. From what I can see the
> Maven developers have been fairly balanced.
>

As I tried to point out in my parenthetical remark -- it wasn't the Maven
committers who started this whole thing ... it was our favorite iconoclast
himself (Jon), who seems to believe that anything that makes him happy
should make everybody happy, and anyone with contrary opinions is just not
with it enough to be worthy of being listened to.

Craig


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Fri, 3 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > I think I've been saying this long enough. .  MERGE MERGE MERGE!


I can't help sitting here thinking about how the committers on projects
being told to "MERGE MERGE MERGE" must feel like two young adults whose
parents want them to get married (and have kids), but they don't even know
if they like each other yet ...


Craig


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

Berin Writes:

| Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
| >
| > It seems to me that authors of a build environment that they want
| > "everyone" to use would think about going and asking the potential
users
| > (i.e. committers on various other projects) what their requirements
are,
| > before any attempt (by those authors, or by anyone else as was the case
| > that started this particular flamefest) to shove it down everyone's
| > throats.
|
| Which gets back to one of my first points.
|
| General build improvement issues should be discussed on General so that
| we know what we want.

Talk is cheap and almost useless, as we've all heard the last two days.
Code/Docs are far more valuable. I believe the usual way is to start with a
cohesive proposal.

As for people shoving Maven down other people's throats, I'd like to know
where the Maven developers have been doing that. From what I can see the
Maven developers have been fairly balanced.

--
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Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[dion]

> I think I've been saying this long enough. .  MERGE MERGE MERGE!
How about we all stop the windbagging and start the code. If you've got an
itch scratch it - lets take this dicsussion to Krysalis-dev, as it's
completely OT here.
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Re: webapp invoker doesn´t work

[Daniel Rall]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Edson Alves Pereira) writes:

>   I´m using Tomcat 4.0.3 and Apache 1.3.2 and the Tomcat´s invoker
>   doesn´t call my servlets. I think that i´ve already done
>   everything, where i can get a good howto about?

Be sure you are using Catalina's default web.xml (by placing it under
$CATALINA_BASE/conf/).

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Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

[John McNally]

I think ojb can do things like map a set of related objects to xml as
well.  Its not completely database centered.  (I know very little about
ojb, so feel free to dispute that.  Just thought I would bring it up in
case those that know better, are tuned out.)

john mcnally

On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 15:33, Peter Donald wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> OJB deserves to be a peer to other projects alongside ant, avalon, struts etc
> 
> A somewhat better idea IMO would be to use OJB + Torque as a trampoline for a 
> new top-level project "db.apache.org" (or insert something more snappy if you 
> want). So much like xml.apache.org deals with XML, db.apache.org will deal 
> with databases (maybe even collaborate with xml.apache.org/xindice in 
> future).
> 
> While this new db project is gestating we can cross link it extensively from 
> the jakarta website. After they get off the feet we talk to it the same way 
> we talk to xml.apache.org ?
> 
> On Fri, 3 May 2002 07:33, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > I hate to interrupt all the good fun over standards, bike sheds, and
> > general good community feelings,  but I would like to solicit community
> > opinion on something unrelated to DVSL or Jon Stevens (both of which I
> > like, btw...)
> >
> > Recently, it was proposed that ObjectBridge be brought to Jakarta as a
> > subproject.
> >
> > Costin suggested, and I supported, that a subproject of wider scope be
> > created to allow the collection of similar technologies into one larger
> > subcommunity (that isn't an exact quote, but I think he'll agree in general
> > with that.)
> >
> > The idea would be to bring in ObjectBridge, but create a Commons-like
> > environment in which other projects can be brought.   Call it DB-Commons as
> > a working name.
> >
> > There are some good reasons, including community alignment, inter-project
> > synergy (there, I used the word in an Apache-related post), and ease of
> > discovery for new users and developers.
> >
> > Off the top of my head, in Jakarta we have lots of db related tools already
> > (Torque, commons-dbcp, and I am sure others...), and having a db-focused
> > subproject in which they can be brought to with a lower barrier than
> > 'fullsubproject' might be very benficial.
> >
> > We already have the successful Commons model to use as a starting point.
> >
> > Anyone have any comments?
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter Donald
> 
> 
> --
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> 



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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Daniel Rall]

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if 
> 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to 
> get people to work togheter -  and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> the standards.

Standards are funny things.  There's always so many to choose from.

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Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 5/2/02 6:09 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If it means no more daily messages about object relational mapping tools
> on this list... 


Right - would keep the list clear for the current important stuff...   ;)


> then it has my full blessing!  I suggest an effort be
> made to move all the connection pools and all that over there and start
> thinking up some orthogonal organization scheme.


One thing I want to emphasize is that it's totally *voluntary*, and a
developer community in Jakarta should move there only if they want to.

This is in no way designed to be a mandate, but simply an opportunity.  If
the developers of Torque want to move there, then they can do so.  If they
want to keep it in Turbine, then they can do so.  Same with any DBCP, or
parts of Avalon, or
 
> The committers there
> should have a little more power to reject lame new OR mapping tools (the
> 90% of them) that show little promise and the standard "HI I'm company X
> can I dump my junk here" should get the response it deserves.

There is no such problem now in Commons.  If the committers in DBCommons
want to bring in something else, that's their decision - they have to
support it...



-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1-203-247-1713



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Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

[Peter Donald]

Hi,

OJB deserves to be a peer to other projects alongside ant, avalon, struts etc

A somewhat better idea IMO would be to use OJB + Torque as a trampoline for a 
new top-level project "db.apache.org" (or insert something more snappy if you 
want). So much like xml.apache.org deals with XML, db.apache.org will deal 
with databases (maybe even collaborate with xml.apache.org/xindice in 
future).

While this new db project is gestating we can cross link it extensively from 
the jakarta website. After they get off the feet we talk to it the same way 
we talk to xml.apache.org ?

On Fri, 3 May 2002 07:33, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> I hate to interrupt all the good fun over standards, bike sheds, and
> general good community feelings,  but I would like to solicit community
> opinion on something unrelated to DVSL or Jon Stevens (both of which I
> like, btw...)
>
> Recently, it was proposed that ObjectBridge be brought to Jakarta as a
> subproject.
>
> Costin suggested, and I supported, that a subproject of wider scope be
> created to allow the collection of similar technologies into one larger
> subcommunity (that isn't an exact quote, but I think he'll agree in general
> with that.)
>
> The idea would be to bring in ObjectBridge, but create a Commons-like
> environment in which other projects can be brought.   Call it DB-Commons as
> a working name.
>
> There are some good reasons, including community alignment, inter-project
> synergy (there, I used the word in an Apache-related post), and ease of
> discovery for new users and developers.
>
> Off the top of my head, in Jakarta we have lots of db related tools already
> (Torque, commons-dbcp, and I am sure others...), and having a db-focused
> subproject in which they can be brought to with a lower barrier than
> 'fullsubproject' might be very benficial.
>
> We already have the successful Commons model to use as a starting point.
>
> Anyone have any comments?

-- 
Cheers,

Peter Donald


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[costinm]

On Fri, 3 May 2002, Michael McCallum wrote:

> > I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
> > 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
> > get people to work togheter -  and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> > the standards.
> >
> Microsoft did not get where it was by using standards. It created 
> things which were easy for people to use and they became the de facto 
> standards.

Microsoft get where it is in part because various Unix vendors 
created their own competing OS versions and tried to become 
the de facto standard. Most attempts to create 'de facto standards'
that compete with an existing standard do fail, even for Microsoft.



Costin



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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Santiago Gala]

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

>On 5/2/02 5:45 PM, "Santiago Gala" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
>>Even the Velocity vs XSLT could be a case for Worse is better :-)
>>(Seriously, I have been thinking along these lines for the last days)
>>
>>
>
>That's DVSL vs XSLT.
>  
>
I was slightly off-focus. I was thinking about using the Anakia task vs 
XSLT to transform XML for web pages. This IMO was a case of worse is 
better, since the complexity of "doing it right" in XSLT leads to all 
sort of implementation complexities, and "doing it right in XML" to 
awful syntax.

On the other hand Anakia is too simple for complex use cases. But it 
delivers simple transformations, and does them fast.




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RE: You guys are so funny.

[Marc Portier]

Craig,
great remark...
otherwise: lack of constructive answers to both the outspoken and implicit
questions in this thread make me wonder if those very committers here the
question? want to answer? (I don't dare to question the eagerness to go and
scratch the itch of course :-))

some constructive progress on this can be trapped on the forrest-dev list
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&w=2&r=1&s=dream&q=b there is
work, eagerness and open ears there

although I favor equally Berins remark on covering this topic on general
lists
(which brings back the issue on which general@ ? xml.apache or
jakarta.apache :) )


-marc=


> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: donderdag 2 mei 2002 23:31
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 2 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 14:24:58 -0700
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Reply-To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.
> >
> >
> > Berin Loritsch says:
> > > There are other dirty underhanded things that M$ did to get where it
> > > is today.  Don't try to compare us to M$.  We're not M$.
> >
> >
> > Whenever someone tells me how much MSFT has done for technology, I
> > can't help but think of how far we might have gotten if MSFT hadn't
> > been so in the way all these years!
>
> For all the nasty things Microsoft has done over the years, they have also
> been pretty good at one particular thing -- asking their customers (and
> potential customers) what they want, and listening to the answer.
>
> It seems to me that authors of a build environment that they want
> "everyone" to use would think about going and asking the potential users
> (i.e. committers on various other projects) what their requirements are,
> before any attempt (by those authors, or by anyone else as was the case
> that started this particular flamefest) to shove it down everyone's
> throats.
>
> This is a characteristic of pretty much every company that gains long
> term and/or mainstream acceptance for their products.  Too bad some open
> source developers haven't learned that the same principles can apply here.
>
> > Jeff Sexton
>
> Craig McClanahan
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 5/2/02 5:45 PM, "Santiago Gala" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Even the Velocity vs XSLT could be a case for Worse is better :-)
> (Seriously, I have been thinking along these lines for the last days)

That's DVSL vs XSLT.
-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1-203-247-1713



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Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

If it means no more daily messages about object relational mapping tools
on this list...  then it has my full blessing!  I suggest an effort be
made to move all the connection pools and all that over there and start
thinking up some orthogonal organization scheme.  The committers there
should have a little more power to reject lame new OR mapping tools (the
90% of them) that show little promise and the standard "HI I'm company X
can I dump my junk here" should get the response it deserves.

So thats my opinion.

On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 17:33, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> 
> I hate to interrupt all the good fun over standards, bike sheds, and general
> good community feelings,  but I would like to solicit community opinion on
> something unrelated to DVSL or Jon Stevens (both of which I like, btw...)
> 
> Recently, it was proposed that ObjectBridge be brought to Jakarta as a
> subproject.
> 
> Costin suggested, and I supported, that a subproject of wider scope be
> created to allow the collection of similar technologies into one larger
> subcommunity (that isn't an exact quote, but I think he'll agree in general
> with that.)  
> 
> The idea would be to bring in ObjectBridge, but create a Commons-like
> environment in which other projects can be brought.   Call it DB-Commons as
> a working name.
> 
> There are some good reasons, including community alignment, inter-project
> synergy (there, I used the word in an Apache-related post), and ease of
> discovery for new users and developers.
> 
> Off the top of my head, in Jakarta we have lots of db related tools already
> (Torque, commons-dbcp, and I am sure others...), and having a db-focused
> subproject in which they can be brought to with a lower barrier than
> 'fullsubproject' might be very benficial.
> 
> We already have the successful Commons model to use as a starting point.
> 
> Anyone have any comments?
> 
> -- 
> Geir Magnusson Jr.
> Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> +1-203-247-1713
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> 
> :)  We'd probably be running UNIX on our desktops with a standard
> and friendly GUI.
> 

I am running UNIX (well Linux but its close enough) on my desktop with a
standard and friendly GUI  Of course I'm running MS Office for
testing Java generated XLS files on my UNIX desktop all managed by a
nice window manager that does what I like.  Whenever office crashes on
the latest POI miscreation it can be easily moved out of the way. 

I'm glad Microsoft is around and evil like they want to be.  Makes life
more fun.  Wish they'd stop making server stuff...or learn to make a
good one...but *shrug*... oh well. nothing is ever perfect ;-)

-Andy

> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
>   deserve neither liberty nor safety."
>  - Benjamin Franklin
> 
> 
> --
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http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Michael McCallum]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

You all  seemed to miss my point.

M$ does not support standards they make then.
I dont like it but thats the way things work.

I run pure gnu-linux.

If you make something easy to use people use it. It becomes a standard.
Simple.

For complex things simple docs make the difference.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE80bYyiVyQAvn9zYsRAiC6AJ9jQtIWkjjhI53s+qDpBWYLAFKkvQCcD1se
bqZi5QFNNB162wvr973F8fc=
=NfNX
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

explain exactly WHAT that has to do with this?  Who gives a rats behind
about Microsoft.  (warning: irony)

-Andy

On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 16:52, Michael McCallum wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> > I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
> > 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
> > get people to work togheter -  and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> > the standards.
> >
> Microsoft did not get where it was by using standards. It created things which were 
>easy for people to use
> and they became the de facto standards.
> 
> Tools that solve problems tend to be much more pratical than standards.
> 
> My 2c
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
> 
> iD8DBQE80acSiVyQAvn9zYsRAg/OAKCJu8rBsnbsjzH3nbFGZ7YulbGCzQCfZsrB
> 9/+5ItAUtqZsAAjOB8nMfzA=
> =ImAW
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> 
> --
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> For additional commands, e-mail: 
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-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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RE: You guys are so funny.

[Danny Angus]

Jon said:

> On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and replaced Jakarta-site2 with
> anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet, but no one changed the
> main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new Anakia sites on
> Sourceforget.net all the time.

Which, I believe, highlights a major issue here. For once the producers of
technology are being cast into consumers of it, and realising that cool
technology in itself is not enough to get that sale. Ease of implementation
and maintenance and a low cost of migration are the sticking points.
sub-Projects won't sign up to new ways of developing their sites for its own
sake, we all know we'd rather be working on the project than the website
generation tool. Any change has to bring advantages which outweigh the
costs.

d.


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Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

[Berin Loritsch]

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> I hate to interrupt all the good fun over standards, bike sheds, and general
> good community feelings,  but I would like to solicit community opinion on
> something unrelated to DVSL or Jon Stevens (both of which I like, btw...)

You're taking away all the fun :)

> 
> Recently, it was proposed that ObjectBridge be brought to Jakarta as a
> subproject.
> 
> Costin suggested, and I supported, that a subproject of wider scope be
> created to allow the collection of similar technologies into one larger
> subcommunity (that isn't an exact quote, but I think he'll agree in general
> with that.)  
> 
> The idea would be to bring in ObjectBridge, but create a Commons-like
> environment in which other projects can be brought.   Call it DB-Commons as
> a working name.

Ok.

> 
> There are some good reasons, including community alignment, inter-project
> synergy (there, I used the word in an Apache-related post), and ease of
> discovery for new users and developers.

:)

> 
> Off the top of my head, in Jakarta we have lots of db related tools already
> (Torque, commons-dbcp, and I am sure others...), and having a db-focused
> subproject in which they can be brought to with a lower barrier than
> 'fullsubproject' might be very benficial.
> 
> We already have the successful Commons model to use as a starting point.
> 
> Anyone have any comments?
> 

Can we have Avalon related components in DB commons?  Avalon has the
DataSourceComponent interface and associated implementations.  There are
some things we have in Excalibur that we *can't* donate to Commons
because the charter does not allow it (I think its something about the
project can't rely on non-commons projects or something).

It only makes sense to have a focused commons-like area.  This would
make the third one.  Excalibur is (at least now) a commons-like area
focused on Avalon, Jakarta Commons is multipurposed, and this would
be fine.

-- 

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
  deserve neither liberty nor safety."
 - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 5/2/02 5:28 PM, "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Berin Loritsch says:
>> 
>>> There are other dirty underhanded things that M$ did to get where it
>>> is today.  Don't try to compare us to M$.  We're not M$.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Whenever someone tells me how much MSFT has done for technology, I
>> can't help but think of how far we might have gotten if MSFT hadn't
>> been so in the way all these years!
> 
> 
> :)  We'd probably be running UNIX on our desktops with a standard
> and friendly GUI.
> 
> 

I am.  I use a mac w/ OS X :)

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1-203-247-1713



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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Santiago Gala]

Berin Loritsch wrote:

> Michael McCallum wrote:
>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>
>>> I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
>>> 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
>>> get people to work togheter -  and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
>>> the standards.
>>>
>>
>> Microsoft did not get where it was by using standards. It created 
>> things which were easy for people to use
>> and they became the de facto standards.
>
>
> Grmble grmble grmble.
>
> Microsoft got where it is based on the shear might of its marketing
> prowess.  It made it easier than Mac to develop, so more developers
> created solutions for it.  I've seen Java tools beat out M$ tools
> for the same job.

In a sense, it could have been a case of "the Rise of Worse is better" 
(in Richard Gabriel's sense: 
http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html). I'm not claiming that 
Microsoft designed from New Jersey, :-) but that while IBM was making 
the perfect OS/2 and all the UNIX community was caring about CORBA and 
complex code repositories they delivered a Windows, and later Visual 
Basic, which was a horrible hack, but a hack that enabled companies to 
start making client server. Take this together with the exponential 
expansion on the number of PCs, and the need of programmers to "feed" 
them, and it makes sense.

While they were a busy monopoly thinking about New Technology, on the 
other side, Mozilla (and A Patchy Server, and later a flock of penguins 
and devils) left them out of a new game. This could be again a case of 
"Worse is better".

Even the Velocity vs XSLT could be a case for Worse is better :-) 
(Seriously, I have been thinking along these lines for the last days)


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Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

I hate to interrupt all the good fun over standards, bike sheds, and general
good community feelings,  but I would like to solicit community opinion on
something unrelated to DVSL or Jon Stevens (both of which I like, btw...)

Recently, it was proposed that ObjectBridge be brought to Jakarta as a
subproject.

Costin suggested, and I supported, that a subproject of wider scope be
created to allow the collection of similar technologies into one larger
subcommunity (that isn't an exact quote, but I think he'll agree in general
with that.)  

The idea would be to bring in ObjectBridge, but create a Commons-like
environment in which other projects can be brought.   Call it DB-Commons as
a working name.

There are some good reasons, including community alignment, inter-project
synergy (there, I used the word in an Apache-related post), and ease of
discovery for new users and developers.

Off the top of my head, in Jakarta we have lots of db related tools already
(Torque, commons-dbcp, and I am sure others...), and having a db-focused
subproject in which they can be brought to with a lower barrier than
'fullsubproject' might be very benficial.

We already have the successful Commons model to use as a starting point.

Anyone have any comments?

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1-203-247-1713



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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Berin Loritsch]

Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> 
> It seems to me that authors of a build environment that they want
> "everyone" to use would think about going and asking the potential users
> (i.e. committers on various other projects) what their requirements are,
> before any attempt (by those authors, or by anyone else as was the case
> that started this particular flamefest) to shove it down everyone's
> throats.

Which gets back to one of my first points.

General build improvement issues should be discussed on General so that
we know what we want.

-- 

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
  deserve neither liberty nor safety."
 - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Thu, 2 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Date: Thu, 02 May 2002 14:24:58 -0700
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.
>
>
> Berin Loritsch says:
> > There are other dirty underhanded things that M$ did to get where it
> > is today.  Don't try to compare us to M$.  We're not M$.
>
>
> Whenever someone tells me how much MSFT has done for technology, I
> can't help but think of how far we might have gotten if MSFT hadn't
> been so in the way all these years!

For all the nasty things Microsoft has done over the years, they have also
been pretty good at one particular thing -- asking their customers (and
potential customers) what they want, and listening to the answer.

It seems to me that authors of a build environment that they want
"everyone" to use would think about going and asking the potential users
(i.e. committers on various other projects) what their requirements are,
before any attempt (by those authors, or by anyone else as was the case
that started this particular flamefest) to shove it down everyone's
throats.

This is a characteristic of pretty much every company that gains long
term and/or mainstream acceptance for their products.  Too bad some open
source developers haven't learned that the same principles can apply here.

> Jeff Sexton

Craig McClanahan


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Berin Loritsch]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Berin Loritsch says:
> 
>>There are other dirty underhanded things that M$ did to get where it
>>is today.  Don't try to compare us to M$.  We're not M$.
> 
> 
> 
> Whenever someone tells me how much MSFT has done for technology, I
> can't help but think of how far we might have gotten if MSFT hadn't
> been so in the way all these years!


:)  We'd probably be running UNIX on our desktops with a standard
and friendly GUI.



-- 

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
  deserve neither liberty nor safety."
 - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[jsexton]

Berin Loritsch says:
> There are other dirty underhanded things that M$ did to get where it
> is today.  Don't try to compare us to M$.  We're not M$.


Whenever someone tells me how much MSFT has done for technology, I
can't help but think of how far we might have gotten if MSFT hadn't
been so in the way all these years!



--
Jeff Sexton
ODS Health Plans
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

>
>
>
>Nope I'm not missing your point.  I'm just waiting for the salient points to
>come out.  This DVSL vs. XSL thing is a complete red herring.  You've said:
>
>[Andy]
>
>> 2. I'll -1 anything that REQUIRES me to use DVSL if I don't want to.
>>
And?  Youre point?  I don't want to use DVSL.  So what?

>
>and Jon has said:
>
>[Jon]
>
>>I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
>>
>>I can't stand XSL...
>>
>
>I'm pretty sure Jon was exaggerating, particularly considering that he
>picked up my "bike shed" argument.  I suspect you are too.  If we want to
>see if collaboration is possible, let's put the real issues on the table.
>So far I haven't pinpointed any showstoppers, except for people too attached
>to the color of their shed.  However it's hard to even judge what would make
>a showstopper until there's a more concrete proposal.  If there are real
>discrepencies, let's spell them out.
>
Its because the only issue is whether the Maven guys will collaborate.. 
. the rest is all crap.  Through collaboration XSL support would be 
inherent. so thats crap too.  

>
>
>One merged project?  Let's work out some more detailed proposals before
>chasing at shadows.
>

One merged project + supporting DVSL for those who like DVSL + XSL for 
those who like standards.

I think I've been saying this long enough. .  MERGE MERGE MERGE!

-Andy

>
>
>>
>>Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>>
>>>I agree with pretty much everything said, although as
>>>always Jon words it a tad more strongly than I ever
>>>would.  :)
>>>
>>>Let the community decide.  If 51% of the developers
>>>want to use XSL, or DVSL, then that's what you should
>>>use.  If you don't like it, prove that your
>>>alternative is better.  But dropping a whole project
>>>because of a detail is needless.
>>>
>>>- Morgan
>>>
>>>--- Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or
>
centipede on the projects I

>have a vote on until they find a way to work
>
togheter.

>DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the
>
standard - regardless of how

>you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that
>
supports both.

>Costin
>
You guys are so funny.

Bike Sheds
--

At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate
the Jakarta website. But
then when I took the effort to make it simple and
easy to use and took away
the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used
it all over the world.

On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and
replaced Jakarta-site2 with
anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet,
but no one changed the
main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new
Anakia sites on
Sourceforget.net all the time.

The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be
Maven. Just like with
Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You
aren't doing the work and
therefore your argument against it is simply a bike
shed and is thus not
valid in my opinion.

Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all
learned that you can't
force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1
on it. Given our
history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to
argue for something like
that. You hypocrite.

Learning Technology
---

The argument about learning minor technologies to
make money is so silly it
is funny. I have owned/started several companies now
and have been
responsible for hiring or directly approving the
hiring of about 50-60
people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount,
but not small either.

Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person
knows minor technology
X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the
most about was that the
person had a general good skill set and the aptitude
to learn something new.
So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your
aptitude, I probably would not
have hired you anyway.

On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into
the box because everyone
else is doing it would make me instantly not like
your personality. I like
people who are free thinkers and who can think
outside of the box. Software
is an art form, not something that you can just
cookie cutter produce (and
have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the
free thinkers that have
the most creative and bug free code. Thinking
outside of the box shows that
you care about the code and systems you are
creating.

People
--

Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming
more and more familiar.
Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with
Peter Donald (credit to
Peter for eventually com

Re: summary: [New Subproject Proposal] ObjectBridge

[robert burrell donkin]

(sorry i wanted to delete this rather than send it)

- robert

On Thursday, May 2, 2002, at 10:18 PM, robert burrell donkin wrote:

> On Thursday, May 2, 2002, at 09:53 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> snip>
>
>> I'm +1, but I really want to discuss Costin's idea making a subproject
>> around OJB that allows other db-related projects to 'join' as peers in 
>> the
>> subproject.
>>
>> From my point of view, having it open like that, and not just for OJB 
>> means
>> we can bring together people that are loosely like-minded.
>>
>> If we don't do this formally, then we have no option to ask the 
>> subproject
>> to do it later...
>>
>> Thanks for reading. Back to the CentimavengumpbutnotastandardDVSL debate.
>>
>> --
>> Geir Magnusson Jr.
>> Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> +1-203-247-1713
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Berin Loritsch]

Michael McCallum wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
>>I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
>>'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
>>get people to work togheter -  and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
>>the standards.
>>
> 
> Microsoft did not get where it was by using standards. It created things which were 
>easy for people to use
> and they became the de facto standards.

Grmble grmble grmble.

Microsoft got where it is based on the shear might of its marketing
prowess.  It made it easier than Mac to develop, so more developers
created solutions for it.  I've seen Java tools beat out M$ tools
for the same job.

You can't claim microsoft has legitimately better technology if they
haven't worked with it.  I've worked with it, and to say I dislike it
would be an understatement.  MFC is the work of a raving mad mob of
developers rushing to get product out the door.  It combines both
OOD and procedural mindsets within the same API.

Microsoft is *not* easy to develop.  It's easier than Macintosh
(at least during the critical time frame when Mac could have done
better).  Easy to use means that several apes pounding on keyboards
produced something that a user liked somewhere.

There are other dirty underhanded things that M$ did to get where it
is today.  Don't try to compare us to M$.  We're not M$.

> 
> Tools that solve problems tend to be much more pratical than standards.
> 

And standards solve problems tend to be doubly more practical.
Standards allow you to communicate more freely, because everyone
speaks the same language.  There is no impedence mismatch because
I say To-mah-to and you say To-may-to.  There is no misunderstanding
because I call a toilet a jon and you call it a lavatory.  That is
what standards are about.  No more wasted energy trying to explain
what we mean by a piece of code.  Its a standard.


My 2c


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  deserve neither liberty nor safety."
 - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: summary: [New Subproject Proposal] ObjectBridge

[robert burrell donkin]

On Thursday, May 2, 2002, at 09:53 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

snip>

> I'm +1, but I really want to discuss Costin's idea making a subproject
> around OJB that allows other db-related projects to 'join' as peers in the
> subproject.
>
> From my point of view, having it open like that, and not just for OJB 
> means
> we can bring together people that are loosely like-minded.
>
> If we don't do this formally, then we have no option to ask the subproject
> to do it later...
>
> Thanks for reading. Back to the CentimavengumpbutnotastandardDVSL debate.
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr.
> Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> +1-203-247-1713
>
>
>
> --
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

>
>
>
>Why am I so obnoxious about all this? My commercial alter-ego (I did
>start up a company 6 months ago, hopefully I will now be respected as a
>grown-up ;-) wants to provide such an infrastructure to my customers,
>since they are going already through the pain of switching from Cobol to
>Java/XML and really need a solid project management/documentation/build
>environment to do some decent Java coding.
>
I'm in a similar boat.

>
>
>
>
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Re: [New Subproject Proposal] ObjectBridge]

[Diane Holt]

+1

Diane

=
([EMAIL PROTECTED])



__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

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Re: summary: [New Subproject Proposal] ObjectBridge

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 5/2/02 10:10 AM, "Martin Poeschl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jason van Zyl wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I would like to propose ObjectRelationalBridge
>> (http://objectbridge.sourceforge.net/) as a top level subproject of
>> Jakarta.
> 
> 
> the voting so far:
> 
> Stefan Bodewig +1
> Craig McClanahan   +1
> Diane Holt not voted yet
> Conor MacNeill +1
> Geir Magnusson Jr. +1
> Costin Monolache   +1
> Sam Ruby   not voted yet
> 
> diane, sam could you please send your votes.
> 
> i think it is fantastic for both communities to have ojb here at jakarta!
> 
> martin
>

I'm +1, but I really want to discuss Costin's idea making a subproject
around OJB that allows other db-related projects to 'join' as peers in the
subproject.

>From my point of view, having it open like that, and not just for OJB means
we can bring together people that are loosely like-minded.

If we don't do this formally, then we have no option to ask the subproject
to do it later...

Thanks for reading. Back to the CentimavengumpbutnotastandardDVSL debate.

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1-203-247-1713



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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Michael McCallum]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

> I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
> 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
> get people to work togheter -  and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> the standards.
>
Microsoft did not get where it was by using standards. It created things which were 
easy for people to use
and they became the de facto standards.

Tools that solve problems tend to be much more pratical than standards.

My 2c
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE80acSiVyQAvn9zYsRAg/OAKCJu8rBsnbsjzH3nbFGZ7YulbGCzQCfZsrB
9/+5ItAUtqZsAAjOB8nMfzA=
=ImAW
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Morgan Delagrange]

- Original Message -
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.


> You're still missing the point ... The main detail to me is I'd like to
> use a combined collaborated project...  I'd -1 solely on that.
>  Centipede more completely fits MY needs and will make it easier for me
> to work with several projects that I need (not just tlaking about
> xsl)...  I'd -1 solely on that

Nope I'm not missing your point.  I'm just waiting for the salient points to
come out.  This DVSL vs. XSL thing is a complete red herring.  You've said:

[Andy]
>  2. I'll -1 anything that REQUIRES me to use DVSL if I don't want to.

and Jon has said:

[Jon]
> I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
>
> I can't stand XSL...

I'm pretty sure Jon was exaggerating, particularly considering that he
picked up my "bike shed" argument.  I suspect you are too.  If we want to
see if collaboration is possible, let's put the real issues on the table.
So far I haven't pinpointed any showstoppers, except for people too attached
to the color of their shed.  However it's hard to even judge what would make
a showstopper until there's a more concrete proposal.  If there are real
discrepencies, let's spell them out.

> BTW when did the Majority voting rule overrule the consenus based?   I
> regard this as a product change.

DVSL is a product change for Centipede.  XSL is a product change for Maven.
If the projects merge, different approaches will have to be reconciled by
the majority; essentially you would have a new product; there would be no
existing "product" to change.  Clearly most people don't known what, if
anything, they want to gain from this discussion.  Two compatible projects?
One merged project?  Let's work out some more detailed proposals before
chasing at shadows.

>
>
> Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>
> >I agree with pretty much everything said, although as
> >always Jon words it a tad more strongly than I ever
> >would.  :)
> >
> >Let the community decide.  If 51% of the developers
> >want to use XSL, or DVSL, then that's what you should
> >use.  If you don't like it, prove that your
> >alternative is better.  But dropping a whole project
> >because of a detail is needless.
> >
> >- Morgan
> >
> >--- Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> >><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or
> >>>
> >>centipede on the projects I
> >>
> >>>have a vote on until they find a way to work
> >>>
> >>togheter.
> >>
> >>>DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the
> >>>
> >>standard - regardless of how
> >>
> >>>you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that
> >>>
> >>supports both.
> >>
> >>>Costin
> >>>
> >>You guys are so funny.
> >>
> >>Bike Sheds
> >>--
> >>
> >>At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate
> >>the Jakarta website. But
> >>then when I took the effort to make it simple and
> >>easy to use and took away
> >>the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used
> >>it all over the world.
> >>
> >>On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and
> >>replaced Jakarta-site2 with
> >>anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet,
> >>but no one changed the
> >>main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new
> >>Anakia sites on
> >>Sourceforget.net all the time.
> >>
> >>The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be
> >>Maven. Just like with
> >>Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You
> >>aren't doing the work and
> >>therefore your argument against it is simply a bike
> >>shed and is thus not
> >>valid in my opinion.
> >>
> >>Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all
> >>learned that you can't
> >>force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1
> >>on it. Given our
> >>history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to
> >>argue for something like
> >>that. You hypocrite.
> >>
> >>Learning Technology
> >>---
> >>
> >>The argument about learning minor technologies to
> >>make money is so silly it
> >>is funny. I have owned/started several companies now
> >>and have been
> >>responsible for hiring or directly approving the
> >>hiring of about 50-60
> >>people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount,
> >>but not small either.
> >>
> >>Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person
> >>knows minor technology
> >>X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the
> >>most about was that the
> >>person had a general good skill set and the aptitude
> >>to learn something new.
> >>So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your
> >>aptitude, I probably would not
> >>have hired you anyway.
> >>
> >>On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into
> >>the box because everyone
> >>else is doing it would make me instantly not like
> >>your personality. I like
> >>people who are free thinkers and who can think
> >>outside of the box. S

RE: You guys are so funny.

[Steven Noels]

Pedantic, I know, but here goes anyway:

Leo wrote:

> Avalon currently uses cocoon (sort of an eat-your-own-dogfood
> case), and
> other developers would like this to stay that way. There is a tool(4)
> that does the same thing as the jakarta project, created by
> people from
> xml.apache. The tool does allow me to plug in this look, and it uses
> cocoon.

> (4) Centipede

  (4) Forrest

Centipede uses Forrest for that, which uses Centipede as its build tool.

So if anyone wants to blame a project for adopting XSLT, it's Forrest
you need to target.

Apart from that, your post deserves my entire blessing (FWIW), and I
urge you to read
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-general&m=102031933515183&w=2
in that respect.

Why am I so obnoxious about all this? My commercial alter-ego (I did
start up a company 6 months ago, hopefully I will now be respected as a
grown-up ;-) wants to provide such an infrastructure to my customers,
since they are going already through the pain of switching from Cobol to
Java/XML and really need a solid project management/documentation/build
environment to do some decent Java coding.




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Re: webapp invoker doesn´t work

[Santiago Gala]

Edson Alves Pereira wrote:

>  I´m using Tomcat 4.0.3 and Apache 1.3.2 and the Tomcat´s invoker doesn´t call my 
>servlets. I think that i´ve already done everything, where i can get a good howto 
>about?
>  
>

You happened to jump into the fire of a project join/split discussion. 
I'd strongly recommend that you keep your errand going on at the 
tomcat-users list.

TIA



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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Steven Noels wrote:

>Jon wrote:
>
>>on 5/2/02 11:52 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>>1. I need something that supports XSL in my build framework
>>>
>>Somehow I doubt that.
>>
>>-jon
>>
>
>I will submit this thread as background material for my JSR proposal
>based upon the existing JSR-57: "Long-Term Persistence for JavaBeans".
>
>I'll call mine JSR-666: "Long-Term Perseverance in Inventing New Art
>Forms".
>
>Come on guys, let's get on with our lives. If destiny is upon us, we
>will meet in the end. If not, why spend more energy convincing each
>other of "doin' the one right thing". Sure this world is big enough to
>have some opposing views. We don't want to digress into politics over
>here, don't we?
>
>
>
Right.. why can't we just collaborate and create one big and better one 
that supports everyone?  I STILL do not understand that... someone needs 
to explain it to me. .  Maybe I'm dense dumb and stupid but it seems 
like the best way to handle this.


>
>
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Santiago Gala]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

>  
>
>Sure, the developers are working together on *some* stuff, but the core
>products they are not and my original Tomcat arguments were that it was lame
>to have two different containers. I got proven wrong from the point of view
>that enough people wanted T3 to survive. I got proven right that T3
>distracted a limited set of resources (ie: people) from T4.
>  
>
Open Source does not care about optimizing resources, but about 
creating, maintaining and supporting communities.

This is an argument I have had enough time with project managers who 
think that Open Source is inefficient: IT IS! It is about enabling more 
ants to thrive in the anthill, not about exploiting the ants to pick 
more food _per capita_. It is really a way to tackle more complexity, 
not about being more efficient at it. The proof is that all of us are 
here losing our time instead of picking a quick winner and going back to 
work.

So, if the split of tomcat enabled more production sites using tomcat 3 
while tomcat 4 was ready, or more programmers coming to tomcat 4 to test 
cool new features, it was actually good... because they did not parted 
away, and shared their relative successes together.

The same could happen here. If XML-centric people think about cool 
things (like finding a clean way to drop beans as context for document 
transformations... Peter Donald had a cool idea on this some time ago 
(DOM on the fly)), while template-centric people develop even cooler 
things (like having a properly recursive way to specify transforms 
without having the horrible syntax that XSLT shows ), I would be really 
delighted, and my employers even more. (Actually I would like to have 
both things, to use them effectively in content aggregation).

The point I have been trying to make is that the important thing is to 
avoid losing the connection between both efforts, and to coordinate 
together the efforts. Some people pointed to reasonable approaches 
(Costin one of them).

Isn't there a way to find common grounds?

Santiago

PS) As a proper spanish quixote, I can't avoid to jump here:

> I hope another jakarta commiter will join me and second my -1.
> I second!

until I feel a situation in which there is no one of us that feels 
defeated, maybe all of us just a little bit deceived.



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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Leo Simons]

> Bike Sheds
> --
> 
> At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate the Jakarta website. But
> then when I took the effort to make it simple and easy to use and took away
> the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used it all over the world.

I really _don't care_ whether it is XSLT, or DVSL, a GUMP project
descriptor or a maven descriptor. I don't care which project hosts what.

I want all my bikes to fit into the same shed. I think there's quite a
few more people out there that feel the same.

Use case


1) fire up computer
2) run grab-a-coffee-during-complete-update.sh
   - cvs update of everything
   - build of everything
   - test of everything
   - compilation of errors sent via e-mail to me
   - overview of changes sent via e-mail to me
3) read e-mail

"everything" should include docs, dependency graphs, javadocs, javasrc,
website, pdfs, etc in an ideal situation.

I also need pluggable look and feel (I don't want my company website
looking like the Jakarta one), extensibility, pluggability and
manageability.

* easiest way of satisfying use case

Combining that complete myriad of tools other people wrote would enable
me to do this. I could rip out the components I need from different bike
sheds and build the power plant I need over the weekend.

There'd be Yet Another Bike Shed, and everyone would do it, and there'd
be no more collaboration.

* best way of satisfying use case

Discuss with smarter people that wrote those tools how to handle this,
agree on course of action, combine different bike sheds into reusable
power plant.

Use case 2
--

The avalon project badly needs a better website. It needs a better look
and feel.

* no satisfaction

There's a jakarta project(1) that handles this, but I do not like the
look it provides. I created a MVC presentation layer file(2) in the
project's custom presentation layer language(3) to provide a custom
look. I found it too difficult to create a patch for this project that
enabled this look while preserving the one currently in use by this
project.

* satisfaction

Avalon currently uses cocoon (sort of an eat-your-own-dogfood case), and
other developers would like this to stay that way. There is a tool(4)
that does the same thing as the jakarta project, created by people from
xml.apache. The tool does allow me to plug in this look, and it uses
cocoon.
I complain about how difficult it is to plug in the look, as docs are
lacking. The tool author(5) promises better docs, and in the meantime,
promises to provide the look I envisioned with his tool.

So, what's the bad part? The jakarta project is being pushed by some
people(6) at jakarta to be the next de facto standard for generating all
of jakarta's web site documentation. I like to follow standards, de
facto or not, if at all possible.

* optimal satisfaction

The two competing projects merge to the extend where they satisfy the
use case together. Avalon can keep eating its own dogfood, as that food
becomes part of the to-be-de-facto standard. As there are no more
competing projects, this de facto standard becomes more 'standard'.

(1) Maven
(2) at
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-avalon/src/proposal/site/anakia/xdocs/stylesheets/site.vsl?rev=1.3&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
(3) DVSL
(4) Centipede
(5) Nicola Ken
(6) Jon

Summary
---

I have personal, commercial and jakarta project use cases for a tool
that combines features from all the different build tools that exist.
Many of those tool authors have those use cases as well and are open to
this combination and would like to cooperate to make this work.

Problem
---

The optimal satisfaction of the mentioned use cases is, as far as I can
tell, only hindered by an unwillingless of some of the tool authors to
cooperate.

Where, in all this, am I building any kind of shed? Where am I not
thinking free? Who is missing which point?

> People
> --
> 
> Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and more familiar.
> Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter Donald (credit to
> Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining the PMC helped).
> Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!

I am not on any PMC, I have never hired anyone in my life, I have no
degree, I have no imposing career, no company. I don't have a car. I
don't even have a driving license. I have, in terms of code, contributed
only in a very modest way to the jakarta community, and I have not been
around very long either.

Does any of that matter, at all? If it does to you, well, I don't really
think you're thinking free, or open, at all.

cheers,

- Leo



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RE: You guys are so funny.

[Steven Noels]

Jon wrote:

> on 5/2/02 11:52 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > 1. I need something that supports XSL in my build framework
>
> Somehow I doubt that.
>
> -jon

I will submit this thread as background material for my JSR proposal
based upon the existing JSR-57: "Long-Term Persistence for JavaBeans".

I'll call mine JSR-666: "Long-Term Perseverance in Inventing New Art
Forms".

Come on guys, let's get on with our lives. If destiny is upon us, we
will meet in the end. If not, why spend more energy convincing each
other of "doin' the one right thing". Sure this world is big enough to
have some opposing views. We don't want to digress into politics over
here, don't we?




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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

>on 5/2/02 1:25 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>And because if we just use all jon's pet projects only jon would get
>>anything done ;-)
>>
>
>Maven isn't my pet project.
>
>I just like it cause it works for me.
>
>-jon
>

And if the two were to work together as Ken has suggestedwould it 
some how *stop* working for you? hu?  Why so anti-collaboration?

>
>
>
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

You're still missing the point ... The main detail to me is I'd like to 
use a combined collaborated project...  I'd -1 solely on that. 
 Centipede more completely fits MY needs and will make it easier for me 
to work with several projects that I need (not just tlaking about 
xsl)...  I'd -1 solely on that

BTW when did the Majority voting rule overrule the consenus based?   I 
regard this as a product change.  



Morgan Delagrange wrote:

>I agree with pretty much everything said, although as
>always Jon words it a tad more strongly than I ever
>would.  :)
>
>Let the community decide.  If 51% of the developers
>want to use XSL, or DVSL, then that's what you should
>use.  If you don't like it, prove that your
>alternative is better.  But dropping a whole project
>because of a detail is needless.
>
>- Morgan
>
>--- Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>>Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or
>>>
>>centipede on the projects I
>>
>>>have a vote on until they find a way to work
>>>
>>togheter.
>>
>>>DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the
>>>
>>standard - regardless of how
>>
>>>you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that
>>>
>>supports both.
>>
>>>Costin
>>>
>>You guys are so funny.
>>
>>Bike Sheds
>>--
>>
>>At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate
>>the Jakarta website. But
>>then when I took the effort to make it simple and
>>easy to use and took away
>>the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used
>>it all over the world.
>>
>>On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and
>>replaced Jakarta-site2 with
>>anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet,
>>but no one changed the
>>main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new
>>Anakia sites on
>>Sourceforget.net all the time.
>>
>>The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be
>>Maven. Just like with
>>Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You
>>aren't doing the work and
>>therefore your argument against it is simply a bike
>>shed and is thus not
>>valid in my opinion.
>>
>>Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all
>>learned that you can't
>>force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1
>>on it. Given our
>>history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to
>>argue for something like
>>that. You hypocrite.
>>
>>Learning Technology
>>---
>>
>>The argument about learning minor technologies to
>>make money is so silly it
>>is funny. I have owned/started several companies now
>>and have been
>>responsible for hiring or directly approving the
>>hiring of about 50-60
>>people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount,
>>but not small either.
>>
>>Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person
>>knows minor technology
>>X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the
>>most about was that the
>>person had a general good skill set and the aptitude
>>to learn something new.
>>So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your
>>aptitude, I probably would not
>>have hired you anyway.
>>
>>On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into
>>the box because everyone
>>else is doing it would make me instantly not like
>>your personality. I like
>>people who are free thinkers and who can think
>>outside of the box. Software
>>is an art form, not something that you can just
>>cookie cutter produce (and
>>have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the
>>free thinkers that have
>>the most creative and bug free code. Thinking
>>outside of the box shows that
>>you care about the code and systems you are
>>creating.
>>
>>People
>>--
>>
>>Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming
>>more and more familiar.
>>Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with
>>Peter Donald (credit to
>>Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think
>>joining the PMC helped).
>>Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
>>
>>:-)
>>
>>-jon
>>
>>
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>
>=
>Morgan Delagrange
>http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
>http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
>http://axion.tigris.org
>
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 5/2/02 1:25 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> And because if we just use all jon's pet projects only jon would get
> anything done ;-)

Maven isn't my pet project.

I just like it cause it works for me.

-jon


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Kurt Schrader]

On Thu, 2 May 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

> And because if we just use all jon's pet projects only jon would get
> anything done ;-)

Jon is not developing Maven or DVSL.
This line of argument has grown tired...

-Kurt


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

If you hate ME to messages scroll to the end where there is one minor 
point or just register a "me too" and move on... ;-)

>
>
> Finally.  Jon, I knew you could do it.  You wrote your first intelligent
> post in this whole thread! 


:-D

>
> ;P
>
> There are things to like with both projects.  However you do ignore some
> things that are important.  GUMP integration is important--I like the
> fact that Centipede works out of the box with it.  I honestly don't like
> the Maven look--but the feel is ok.  The problem is that Maven does not
> make it easy to change either the look or the feel.  It takes more
> effort than should be required for a _build_ tool.  The types of docs
> that it generates are fantastic.  They are very useful.

>
> I personally lean toward Centipede because it uses more of *my* pet
> projects :)  And there lies the rub.  I personally would like to see
> where some projects use Maven and some use Centipede.  Either way,
> I want them to be compatible with GUMP.

start singing "wouldn't it be nice to work together..."

>
> And who said it was beyond our aptitude.  All anybody said is that it
> was beyond our desire.  If we have a tool that works for us, and it
> garners more and more _tool_ support--we will use it.  It's what makes
> for the project.  Yes money is not the key motivator, and anyone who
> thinks it is should be shot, but if we need to find a new employer--
> we will have a better time if we know XSLT as opposed to DVSL.
>
> So sometimes decisions to use a product or project is completely out
> of your control.  Nevertheless, I maintain that I can wrap my head
> around anything in under two weeks (two weeks being for very complex
> projects).  That's if I need to.  I personally balance involvement
> in four projects (2 on XML.apache and 2 on Jakarta), a personal
> life, a professional life, and hobbies.  The less I have to learn
> for a build the better.  If I need to update the look and feel of
> a site to brand a project for my own purposes--I don't want to waste
> two weeks figuring it out.  I want to use what I already know so
> I can just do it.
>
> Its as simple and pragmatic as that.

+1 - complete agreement.

>
> And yet, you insist that all free thinkers think like you.  Not all free
> thinkers fit in your box (sometimes it is a little confining ;P ).

+1

>
>
> I personally like Peter, don't you?  You guys can be alike in some ways,
> which is probably why you had a hard time with him.
>
I like everyone...even jon.  I'm sure I'm not his favorite person...but 
I find him amusing most of the time.




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webapp invoker doesn´t work

[Edson Alves Pereira]

  I´m using Tomcat 4.0.3 and Apache 1.3.2 and the Tomcat´s invoker doesn´t call my 
servlets. I think that i´ve already done everything, where i can get a good howto 
about?

  With best wishes,
  Edson Alves Pereira


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

>
>
>>The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be Maven. Just like with
>>Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You aren't doing the work and
>>therefore your argument against it is simply a bike shed and is thus not
>>valid in my opinion.
>>
>
>I hope another jakarta commiter will join me and second my -1. 
>
I second!

>
>And I hope you'll not find a way to twist this rule. 
>
+1

>
>>So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your aptitude, I probably would not
>>have hired you anyway.
>>
I wouldn't go to the interview in the first place.  

>
>It's not a matter of learning - but of principles. Respecting and using 
>standards, even if simpler solutions may exist - would be a big argument
>for me. 
>
And because if we just use all jon's pet projects only jon would get 
anything done ;-)

>
>
>Respecting and using standards shows you care about the community and 
> the other people who one way or another will use your code. 
>
>If reinventing the wheel is what you call 'free thinkers', I'm sorry about
>you.
>
:-D  But he's not so free thinking to want to encourage collaboration.  

-Andy (whose feeling like some kind of communist about now ;-) )

>
>
>Costin
>
>
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 5/2/02 12:26 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I never used ( and I don't plan to use ) Anakia

How did you generate this diff?



Come on Costin, you keep shooting yourself in your foot.

-jon


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 5/2/02 12:23 PM, "GOMEZ Henri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all learned
>> that you can't
>> force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1 on it. Given our
>> history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to argue for
>> something like
>> that. You hypocrite.
> 
> Again and again, the same bullshits.
> 
> Jon, take a closer look into tomcat-dev and you'll see that
> projects could works together, using others ways in JTC,
> coyote, jk/jk2, are the proof that tomcat developpers from
> 4.x and 3.3.x could works together...

Sure, the developers are working together on *some* stuff, but the core
products they are not and my original Tomcat arguments were that it was lame
to have two different containers. I got proven wrong from the point of view
that enough people wanted T3 to survive. I got proven right that T3
distracted a limited set of resources (ie: people) from T4.

Centipede is to Tomcat 3 as Maven is to Tomcat 4.

You can't force the developers of T3 to work on T4.

-jon


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 5/2/02 11:52 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 1. I need something that supports XSL in my build framework

Somehow I doubt that.

-jon


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[lloyd]

> > You guys are so funny.

My name is Hammer.  I like to rave!





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Re: You guys are so funny.

[costinm]

Jon calling me 'hypocrite'

That is a bit funny, at least after reading his arguments on this thread.
( and how this thread started, and all his actions on this subject ).

Well, as I said I will vote -1 on any switch to Maven wherever I have a 
vote. 

I never used ( and I don't plan to use ) Anakia - and I voted -1 and 
I'll keep voting -1 whenever my vote is counted. 

I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if 
'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to 
get people to work togheter -  and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
the standards.

> The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be Maven. Just like with
> Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You aren't doing the work and
> therefore your argument against it is simply a bike shed and is thus not
> valid in my opinion.

I hope another jakarta commiter will join me and second my -1. 

And I hope you'll not find a way to twist this rule. 


> Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all learned that you can't
> force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1 on it. Given our
> history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to argue for something like
> that. You hypocrite.

Just like with tomcat 3 and tomcat4, we all learned that you _can_ get
people to work togheter, even if they disagree on many things. Coyote is 
a good example, jasper2 may be another. 

As long as people like you stay away, at least. 


> So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your aptitude, I probably would not
> have hired you anyway.

It's not a matter of learning - but of principles. Respecting and using 
standards, even if simpler solutions may exist - would be a big argument
for me. 


> have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the free thinkers that have
> the most creative and bug free code. Thinking outside of the box shows that
> you care about the code and systems you are creating.

Respecting and using standards shows you care about the community and 
 the other people who one way or another will use your code. 

If reinventing the wheel is what you call 'free thinkers', I'm sorry about
you.


Costin


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RE: You guys are so funny.

[GOMEZ Henri]

>> Jon, take a closer look into tomcat-dev and you'll see that
>> projects could works together, using others ways in JTC,
>> coyote, jk/jk2, are the proof that tomcat developpers from
>> 4.x and 3.3.x could works together...
>
>Yeah right... And now where do _I_ stand? Hehehehehe :)
>

Near me my friend ;)

Just another proof that I could be a mod_jk supported,
and try to help also on mod_webapp...

More connectors, more alternatives, more ideas, more
competition 

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Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projectsto maven!)

[Santiago Gala]

Leo Simons wrote:

(...)

>>Andrew, consider using the CSS from the Tigris Style project
>>.  It's a new project, but already in use in
>>several major OSS code bases, including Maven, Scarab, and Eyebrowse.
>>
>>
>
>I looked at these and they're a major pain in the *** to modify - you
>have to modify code in 3 places in 3 files or something for every change
>you wish to make; css classes are used more widely than their naming
>implies, etc.
>  
>
*shrug* Someone will soon come for a proposal for namespacing class 
names in CSS. I think it's time to think about retiring myself from 
programming...

:-)

Santiago
(A little burned, but slowly coming back to life)


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

>
>
>
>Cool. I like being funny :-)
>
>Hey, Paulo! Let's meet! We can become friends and switch xsl:templates!
>
>
>

Count me in!  I was thinking we could rewrite Velocity using a self 
expressing XSL-based language, you know make it completely declarative 
and have the Java done on the back with some kind of BCL scheme...  ;-)

>
>
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Kurt Schrader]

On Thu, 2 May 2002, Berin Loritsch wrote:

> WIth certain limitations.  Where is the Nag entries, etc.?

The nag entries are there now, after it was pointed out yesterday that
they weren't being added.  I'm not sure what "etc" needs to be added to
the descriptor besides that, but I'm sure that we can work it out if it's
needed.

> It's getting better, but the fact remains that the gump descriptor is
> generated--not extended.

That fact does remain...

-Kurt


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RE: You guys are so funny.

[Steven Noels]

Jon wrote:

> People
> --
> 
> Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and 
> more familiar.
> Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter 
> Donald (credit to
> Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining 
> the PMC helped).
> Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
> 
> :-)

Cool. I like being funny :-)

Hey, Paulo! Let's meet! We can become friends and switch xsl:templates!



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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Andrew C. Oliver]

>
>
>
>People
>--
>
>Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and more familiar.
>Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter Donald (credit to
>Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining the PMC helped).
>

because I refuse to adopt things if they don't meet my needs and if 
those who create them refuse to meet my needs and don't want to 
collaborate?  Then a Benedict Arnold I am.  

I know how it works Jon... most of the time you crack me upI've 
learned to enjoy you...  But the rest of the time, I think you have 
shell shock.  Again... in this long diatribe missed the point:

1. I need something that supports XSL in my build framework
2. Maven Doesn't
3. Maven refuses to collaborate with Centipede
4. Centipede folks want to collaborate
5. I thereby reject Maven wherever I have the choice because of points 1-4.

Collaobrate and you suite everyone needs.  But thats not what the game 
is here.. . Its "your way" or not and you're not interested in 
collaborating or incorporating other ideas.  Consensus requires 
inclusion.  I feel exluded.  I suppose I deserved a "you're peter" since 
I called you stallman.

-Andy

>
>Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
>
>:-)
>
>-jon
>
>
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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Pier Fumagalli]

"GOMEZ Henri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all learned
>> that you can't
>> force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1 on it. Given our
>> history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to argue for
>> something like
>> that. You hypocrite.
> 
> Again and again, the same bullshits.
> 
> Jon, take a closer look into tomcat-dev and you'll see that
> projects could works together, using others ways in JTC,
> coyote, jk/jk2, are the proof that tomcat developpers from
> 4.x and 3.3.x could works together...

Yeah right... And now where do _I_ stand? Hehehehehe :)

Pier

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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Berin Loritsch]

Kurt Schrader wrote:
> On Thu, 2 May 2002, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> 
> 
>>There are things to like with both projects.  However you do ignore some
>>things that are important.  GUMP integration is important--I like the
>>fact that Centipede works out of the box with it.
> 
> 
> Just to clear this up, "ant maven:gump-descriptor" will generate a Gump
> project descriptor for a Mavenized project.

WIth certain limitations.  Where is the Nag entries, etc.?

It's getting better, but the fact remains that the gump descriptor is
generated--not extended.


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Re: You guys are so funny.

[Kurt Schrader]

On Thu, 2 May 2002, Berin Loritsch wrote:

> There are things to like with both projects.  However you do ignore some
> things that are important.  GUMP integration is important--I like the
> fact that Centipede works out of the box with it.

Just to clear this up, "ant maven:gump-descriptor" will generate a Gump
project descriptor for a Mavenized project.

-Kurt


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RE: You guys are so funny.

[GOMEZ Henri]

>Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all learned 
>that you can't
>force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1 on it. Given our
>history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to argue for 
>something like
>that. You hypocrite.

Again and again, the same bullshits.

Jon, take a closer look into tomcat-dev and you'll see that
projects could works together, using others ways in JTC,
coyote, jk/jk2, are the proof that tomcat developpers from 
4.x and 3.3.x could works together...

Jon, you may don't like Costin, but you can at least
remain polite...

Ad minima




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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))

[Andrew C. Oliver]

>
>
>
>Seems like overkill to stop a project based on the stylesheet technology,
>but it's your choice to make.
>
Its not ONLY the tag language.  And its the refusal to collaborate that 
really irks me.  Furthermore, there model of seperation of centipede 
looks nicer.  I'd like to see the two ideas combined but the centipede 
more closely fits my world view.  If the two ideas were integrated well 
then they'd totally give me everything I need.  So -1 for maven until 
they decide to wise up and play nice.

>>None taken.  But I prefer to go by my first name.
>>
>
>Ah, my profuse apologies.  I did know your name, it was just a momentary
>synapse failure.  :P
>
No prob.  Common mistake, Delagrange ;-)

-Andy

>
>>-Andy
>>
>>>- Morgan
>>>
>
>
>
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